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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

How are we justified before God?

This is an important question that is misunderstood by many mainly because of false religions.

All false religions write their own ideas and then make the scripture fit into that idea. Mormons have the book of Mormon. Muslims have the Koran. Jehovah’s witnesses have the Watch Tower publications and Roman Catholics have Tradition. All who hold to these extra writings claim that they are truth. So which of these is the sinner to choose to guide him as to how he can be justified before God? I would say none. Let us stick with the scripture. How are we justified before God? Let us look at the following scriptures.

Ephesians 2:8–10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 4:1–11
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

James 2:14–26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rehab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

There is an irreconcilable contradiction between Romans 4 and James 2 since both of them are using Abraham as an illustration, unless they are coming at justification from two different focal points and I believe they are. In Romans 4 Paul is talking about how we are justified before God, i.e. by grace through faith and not by works which we perform. James, on the other hand, is talking about how we are justified before men, i.e. it is only by our works that men can know that we are saved by grace through faith. When Abraham offered Isaac upon the alter, he was confirming or justifying his belief in sacrifice and that God would provide Himself a Lamb. Paul says it is by faith in Christ we are justified, but James says we demonstrate that faith by works, i.e. we testify to the world the all sufficiency of trusting in the sacrifice of Christ to cleanse away our sin and give us acceptance with God. We are justified by faith apart from works before God because He can see the heart. Therefore, since God knows our heart He does not need our works to demonstrate that we have faith in Christ, but works are necessary to prove before men that we have saving faith and that we are justified before God. Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. But some might say, doesn't the Bible say we need to repent? Yes, but what is repentance? Repentance that brings salvation is not turning away from sin or from ones evil ways, because that kind of repentance is a work and we are not saved by works. Trying to make ourselves a better person will not gain us favor with God.

Repentance that brings salvation means to have a change of mind, i.e. it is a change of mind from our own way of salvation to God's way of salvation and that is from refusing to believe to total faith and trust in Jesus Christ to cancel our sin debt by the sacrifice of Himself. Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. We must lay aside our own preconceived ideas and believe the good news that Jesus came into the world to save sinners, not good people who think they can improve themselves by works.

The only message in the scripture to be saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. The only requirement for salvation is faith in Christ as our substitute. Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Amen!!!!

We are justified solely through the Blood of Christ.

Romans 5:1,9 “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Man’s legal standing with Heaven is one of condemnation, and worthy of the righteous wrath of almighty God. Romans 3:23 “ For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;”

Justification is the act of God whereby He accepts the blood of Christ as the complete and satisfying sacrifice for all human sin, propitiation, thus changing our legal status and establishing a means of reconciliation with man.

Believers are justified by the grace of God through faith. Titus 3:7 “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Romans 3:28 “ Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” We see that the status of man is changed from that of the condemned to that of an heir, one who is able to inherit. Thus man is reconciled to God through the propitiation of Jesus Christ and restored to full legal righteous standing.

We stand before God clothed in the righteousness of Christ Jesus our Lord.

If one is truly saved, justified, then the Holy Spirit will begin the process of Sanctification, with the evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit. The Believer will turn their heart more and more to God, and thus from the heart keep His Commandments.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:

If one is truly saved, justified, then the Holy Spirit will begin the process of Sanctification, with the evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit. The Believer will turn their heart more and more to God, and thus from the heart keep His Commandments.

Yes, we are saved unto the production of works.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

There is a triune gift for the chosen. Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice that Paul does not mentioned Sanctification in Romans 8. He says, “whom he justified, them he also glorified.” The reason he left out Sanctification is because it is not a requirement for salvation.

The penitent thief on the cross did not experience the Sanctification process, he never did anything, was never baptized, never went to church, never received communion, all he did was look to Christ in faith to save him and he was justified and Glorified on the same day.

Some are saved, but due to circumstances the Spirit is unable to use them to perform righteous works. They are saved, but there are consequences.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

There is an inheritance for them that are sanctified.

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

Here is a link to a carm article explaining the difference between Justification and Sanctification.

http://carm.org/justification-and-sanctification

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Great article, but

quote:

Copying and Linking

by Matt Slick

1. CARM does not allow sites to reproduce entire articles from the CARM website and put them on their websites, blogs, etc., because it has an adverse affect on page rankings.

quote:
Linking to CARM

Please do! You do not need permission to link to CARM. The HTML tag is The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. Feel free to link to individual articles.

So, we can link to CARM articles, but we can't copy them here.

Sorry.

Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on :

Besides, long posts are not going to be read by most people.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Actually, I liked the article, other than the copyright issues.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Great article, but

quote:

Copying and Linking

by Matt Slick

1. CARM does not allow sites to reproduce entire articles from the CARM website and put them on their websites, blogs, etc., because it has an adverse affect on page rankings.

quote:
Linking to CARM

Please do! You do not need permission to link to CARM. The HTML tag is The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. Feel free to link to individual articles.

So, we can link to CARM articles, but we can't copy them here.

Sorry.

Thats a pity.

Should we delete the article and leave the link?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Great idea!

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

Done, and thank you

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

According to this article, "Justification and Sanctification: What is the Difference?", "Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner....This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved."

The simplicity of this position regarding this doctrine leaves me wondering about the importance of "obedience" in this matter of salvation. Jesus makes some pretty clear and strong statements to his disciples about the importance of "obedience in his very personal instructions to them prior to arrest. He said, "Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love." (John 15:9-10) And he went on to say, "You are my friends if you do what I command you." (John 15:14)

Previous Jesus had told his disciples to "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me." (John 15:4) And he went on, "If anyone does not abide in me, he is thrown away like a branch and withers, and...and the branches are...thrown into the fire, and burned." (John 15:6)

These seem to be pretty clear strong statements from Jesus regarding the importance of "obedience" for salvation. So how can a "friend" of Jesus be justified apart from his or her "obedience"? Some further clarifying insight into this matter would be appreciated.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

Hi TB125

After John 15:1-10 He goes on to say,
John 15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

How could their joy be full if there was the danger that because of some action they might perform, they could be said to no longer abide in Him and be cast into the fire and burned?

The answer is simple; He was using the vine and the branches to illustrate that for them there was no danger at all. They were already live branches joined to the vine since they were bringing forth fruit. It is only dead branches that are burned.

Let me illustrate another way.

A community receives the news that there is danger if they remain where they are, but a coach is laid on free of charge to transport those who wish to go to a safe destination. While the coach is waiting, some accept the offer and get on board and some don’t, because they do not “see” any danger, while others get the length of the step and turn back because they would rather be where they are. Just before the coach starts to move, the door is shut, not by the passengers, but by the driver. Then the driver begins to comment and says, as long as you “abide,” or remain on the coach you are in no danger at all. If you do not abide you perish.

Would anyone want to step off? If they did could they do it without the driver opening the door? No. Their joy would be full because of what the driver said.

In the same way, those who are in Christ are safe, because when we are in, He shuts the door, not us, just as Noah entered the Ark and God shut the door, the Ark being a type of Christ.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Before justification, there are repentance, faith, and regeneration. Even Calvinists who believe that sinful man is incapable of repentance and faith still believe that regeneration, or the new birth, comes before justification.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Hi Bloodbought, I don't think that your illustration addresses my concern regarding the importance of "obedience". You refer to Noah and the Ark, comparing the Ark to the "coach" that provides a "safe destination" for those in danger, BUT the "coach" was provided by God and the Ark was built by Noah in "obedience" to God's command, and it took him 120 years to do it.

In addition to this important teaching to his disciples regarding this matter, Jesus also gave a parable about "ten virgins" who were a part of the selected lighters for a "bridegroom" who expected them to light the way as he escorted his "bride" to his home. But five of these virgins were "foolish", and were unprepared to complete their assigned duty, and "the door was shut" to them for the "marriage feast". (Matthew 25:1-13)

Unlike Noah, they didn't complete their assignment. Fruitless "branches" are not preserved from the "fire". "Foolish virgins" are not admitted into the "wedding feast". And a "wicked and slothful servant" is not allowed to remain in his master's service because he didn't obey his master by investing the "one talent" that he had been given to invest, "according to his ability", for his "master". (Matthew 25:14-30)

These are clear and powerful words of instruction and warning from Jesus himself. Please clarify their relationship to the single decision of God for the "justification" of sinners apart from "obedience".

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Hi Bloodbought, I don't think that your illustration addresses my concern regarding the importance of "obedience". You refer to Noah and the Ark, comparing the Ark to the "coach" that provides a "safe destination" for those in danger, BUT the "coach" was provided by God and the Ark was built by Noah in "obedience" to God's command, and it took him 120 years to do it.

In addition to this important teaching to his disciples regarding this matter, Jesus also gave a parable about "ten virgins" who were a part of the selected lighters for a "bridegroom" who expected them to light the way as he escorted his "bride" to his home. But five of these virgins were "foolish", and were unprepared to complete their assigned duty, and "the door was shut" to them for the "marriage feast". (Matthew 25:1-13)

Unlike Noah, they didn't complete their assignment. Fruitless "branches" are not preserved from the "fire". "Foolish virgins" are not admitted into the "wedding feast". And a "wicked and slothful servant" is not allowed to remain in his master's service because he didn't obey his master by investing the "one talent" that he had been given to invest, "according to his ability", for his "master". (Matthew 25:14-30)

These are clear and powerful words of instruction and warning from Jesus himself. Please clarify their relationship to the single decision of God for the "justification" of sinners apart from "obedience".

The five foolish virgins were without oil in their lamps. Oil is the Biblical symbol of the Holy Spirit. Christ said He knew them not. Just like so many who pay lip-service to Christ but in whom He does not dwell, just as He knew not those in Matthew 7.

We are justified solely through faith and trust in Christ, NOT of works.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 10:
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

So true Caretaker. We obey because we are a part of His family. Because He loves us and we love Him. Not because we hope that by obedience we can prove we are good enough to become part of his family. We must be alive before we can bear fruit.

John 6

26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” 28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” 30So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31“Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’” 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 10

27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

THE MEANING OF JUSTIFICATION

1. Relatively

It is a change in a man’s relation or standing before God. It has to do with relations that have been disturbed by sin, and these relations are personal. It is a change from guilt and condemnation to acquittal and acceptance. Regeneration has to do with the change of the believer’s nature; justification, with the change of his standing before God. Regeneration is subjective; justification is objective. The former has to do with man’s state; the latter, with his standing.

2. According to the Language and Usage of the Scriptures

According to Deut. 25:1 it means to declare, or to cause to appear innocent or righteous; Rom. 4:2-8: to reckon righteous; Psa. 32:2: not to impute iniquity. One thing at least is clear from these verses, and that is, that to justify does not mean to make one righteous. Neither the Hebrew nor Greek words will bear such meaning. To justify means to set forth as righteous; to declare righteous in a legal sense; to put a person in a right relation. It does not deal, at least not directly, with character or conduct; it is a question of relationship. Of course both character and conduct will be conditioned and controlled by this relationship. No real righteousness on the part of the person justified is to be asserted, but that person is declared to be righteous and is treated as such. Strictly speaking then, justification is the judicial act of God whereby those who put faith in Christ are declared righteous in His eyes, and free from guilt and punishment.

3. Justification Consists of Two Elements

a) THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN, AND THE REMOVAL OF ITS GUILT AND PUNISHMENT

It is difficult for us to understand God’s feeling towards sin. To us forgiveness seems easy, largely because we are indifferent towards sin. But to a holy God it is different. Even men sometimes find it hard to forgive when wronged. Nevertheless God gladly forgives.

Micah 7:18, 19—“Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger forever, because he delighteth in mercy… he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.” See also Psa. 130:4. What a wondrous forgiveness!

Forgiveness may be considered as the cessation of the moral anger and resentment of God against sin; or as a release from the guilt of sin which oppresses the conscience; or, again, as a remission of the punishment of sin, which is eternal death.

In justification, then, all our sins are forgiven, and the guilt and punishment thereof removed (Acts 13:38, 39; Rom. 8:1). God sees the believer as without sin and guilt in Christ (Num. 23:21; Rom. 8:33, 34).

b) THE IMPUTATION OF CHRIST’S RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND RESTORATION TO GOD’S FAVOR

The forgiven sinner is not like the discharged prisoner who has served out his term and is discharged from further punishment, but with no rights of citizenship. No, justification means much more than acquittal. The repentant sinner receives back in his pardon, the full rights of citizenship. The Society of Friends called themselves Friends, not because they were friends one to another but because, being justified, they counted themselves friends of God as was Abraham (2 Chron. 20:7, James 2:23). There is also the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ to the sinner. His righteousness is “unto all and upon all them that believe” (Rom. 3:22). See Rom. 5:17-21; 1 Cor. 1:30. For illustration, see Philemon 18.

THE METHOD OF JUSTIFICATION

1. Negatively: Not By Works of the Law

Rom. 3:20—“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” “Therefore” implies that a judicial trial has taken place and a judgment pronounced. At the bar of God no man can be counted righteous in His sight because of his obedience to law. The burden of the Epistle to the Romans is to set forth this great truth. As a means of establishing right relations with God the law is totally insufficient. There is no salvation by character. What men need is salvation from character.

The reason why the law cannot justify is here stated: “For by the law is the knowledge of sin.” The law can open the sinner’s eyes to his sin, but it cannot remove it. Indeed, it was never intended to remove it, but to intensify it. The law simply defines sin, and makes it sinful, yea, exceedingly sinful, but it does not emancipate from it. Gal. 3:10 gives us a further reason why justification cannot take place by obedience to the law. The law demands perfect and continual obedience: “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” No man can render a perfect and perpetual obedience, therefore justification by obedience to the law is impossible. The only thing the law can do is to stop the mouth of every man, and declare him guilty before God (Rom. 3:19, 20).

Gal. 2:16, and 3:10, Rom. 3:28, are very explicit in their denial of justification by law. It is a question of Moses or Christ, works or faith, law or promise, doing or believing, wages or a free gift.

2. Positively: By God’s Free Grace—The Origin or Source of Justification

Rom. 3:24—“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” “Freely” denotes that it is granted without anything done on our part to merit or deserve it. From the contents of the epistle up to this point it must be clearly evident that if men, sinful and sinning, are to be justified at all, it must be “by his free grace.”

3. By the Blood of Jesus Christ—The Ground of Justification

Rom. 3:24—“Being justified… through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” 5:9—“Much more then, being now justified by his blood.” 2 Cor. 5:21 (rv)—“Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.” The bloodshedding of Christ is here connected with justification. It is impossible to get rid of this double idea from this passage. The sacrifices of the Old Testament were more than a meaningless butchery—“Without shedding of blood is no remission” of sin (Heb. 9:22). The great sacrifice of the New Testament, the death of Jesus Christ, was something more than the death of a martyr—men are “justified by his blood” (Rom. 5:9).

4. By Believing in Jesus Christ—The Condition of Justification

Gal. 2:16—“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,” or as the Revised Version margin has it: “But only through faith in Jesus Christ.” Rom. 3:26—“To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” “Him that believeth in Jesus” is contrasted with “as many as are of the works of the law” (Gal. 3:10). When Paul in Romans 4:5 says: “Now to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,” he gives the deathblow to Jewish righteousness. “His faith is counted for righteousness”; that pictures the man who, despairing of all dependence upon his works, casts himself unreservedly upon the mercy of God, as set forth in Jesus Christ, for his justification. Thus it comes to pass that “all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses” (Acts 13:39). The best of men need to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and the worst need only that. As there is no difference in the need, neither is there in the method of its application. On this common ground all saved sinners meet, and will stand forever. The first step, then, in justification is to despair of works; the second, to believe on him that justifieth the ungodly.

We are not to slight good works, for they have their place, but they follow, not precede justification. The workingman is not the justified man, but the justified man is the workingman. Works are not meritorious, but they meet with their reward in the life of the justified. The tree shows its life by its fruits, but it was alive before the fruit or even the leaves appeared. (See under Faith, p. 148, for further suggestions regarding the relation between faith and works.)

Summing up we may say that men are justified judicially by God (Rom. 8:33); meritoriously by Christ (Isa. 53:11); mediately by faith (Rom. 5:1); evidentially by works (James 2:14, 18-24).

(The Great Doctrines Of The Bible)

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Before justification, there are repentance, faith, and regeneration. Even Calvinists who believe that sinful man is incapable of repentance and faith still believe that regeneration, or the new birth, come before justification.

Regeneration took place by the power of the Holy Spirit when we were down in the gutter of sin, spiritually dead and unable to see, hear, walk or talk in the Spirit.
Jesus opened eyes and ears, healed the lame, caused the dumb to speak and raised the dead in the physical, to demonstrate just how helpless we were spiritually before regeneration.

When we are made alive by the Spirit we hear the good news, see our need, repent and trust Christ, calling on His name. At that time we are justified, just as if we had never sinned.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Hi Bloodbought, I don't think that your illustration addresses my concern regarding the importance of "obedience". You refer to Noah and the Ark, comparing the Ark to the "coach" that provides a "safe destination" for those in danger, BUT the "coach" was provided by God and the Ark was built by Noah in "obedience" to God's command, and it took him 120 years to do it.

In addition to this important teaching to his disciples regarding this matter, Jesus also gave a parable about "ten virgins" who were a part of the selected lighters for a "bridegroom" who expected them to light the way as he escorted his "bride" to his home. But five of these virgins were "foolish", and were unprepared to complete their assigned duty, and "the door was shut" to them for the "marriage feast". (Matthew 25:1-13)

Unlike Noah, they didn't complete their assignment. Fruitless "branches" are not preserved from the "fire". "Foolish virgins" are not admitted into the "wedding feast". And a "wicked and slothful servant" is not allowed to remain in his master's service because he didn't obey his master by investing the "one talent" that he had been given to invest, "according to his ability", for his "master". (Matthew 25:14-30)

These are clear and powerful words of instruction and warning from Jesus himself. Please clarify their relationship to the single decision of God for the "justification" of sinners apart from "obedience".

I think I know where you are coming from here TB125. Your concern is that if we are disobedient can faith save us. The answer is no, James 2.

However, if you have repented and trusted Christ plus nothing else you have no need to be concerned. You will be obedient, you will do what He wants you to do. If you don't then you should be concerned about your faith, not your obedience. Obedience is the result of justification, not the cause.

Noah "believed" God, was justified by faith, resulting in obedience. It was not obedience that saved him, it was faith that saved him. Obedience was the fruit not the root.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If there is no fruit there is no root.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Hi Bloodbought,
I agree with James, that "faith" without obedient "works" is "dead" (James 2:17), which is like a "branch" that is "fruitless" even though it is still connect to the "vine", or the "virgins" who were "foolish" even though they still had their "lamps", or the "servant" who was "wicked" even though he still had the "one talent" that his "master" had given to him.

You indicate that "Noah 'believed' God, was justified by faith, resulting in obedience", but the biblical text regarding Noah and the salvation of him and his family doesn't say that. The text indicates that Noah "walked with God" (Genesis 6:9), and when God told him that he was going to destroy "all flesh" and that he should "make yourself an ark" and take "your wife, and your sons' wives...and every living thing of all flesh...and every sort of food....Noah did this; he did all that God commanded him." (Genesis 6:12-22)

Apparently God recognized Noah as a "righteous man" (Genesis 6:9 and 7:1), but we don't know why God looked upon him in that way. No where in the text does it indicate that it was because of Noah's "faith".

Abram was credited with "righteousness" because "he believed the Lord" when the Lord told him that he would have his "very own son" as his "heir" and his"offspring" would be as numerous as "the stars" (Genesis 15:4-6), and this declaration came after years of obedience by Abram who had traveled from Ur to Canaan to Egypt and back to Canaan, even giving "a tenth of everything" that he had to "Melchizedek". (Genesis 12:1-14:20)

I know that Paul cites Abram or Abraham as the "father" of the faithful, but his act of "faith" only came after years of "obedience", and it was later tested by God's command to "Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering", and Abraham in obedience prepared to do that. (Genesis 22:2-18) And God told Abraham that "'in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.'" (Genesis 22:18)

So I'm still trying to understand the relationship between justified righteousness and obedient faith. Your further help with this matter will be appreciated.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

Again, the only requirement for salvation is to believe. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house, Acts 16:31. Those who refuse to believe will be destroyed. Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Sometimes God takes us through a learning process before He has us where we should be. Moses, for example, whose life was 120 years, was divided into three forties. The first forty he spent learning to be something. The second forty he spent in the back side of the desert learning to be nothing and the third forty he spent learning that God is everything. He was over eighty before he graduated. [Smile]

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

If Moses "graduated", he apparently didn't get his "diploma", because God didn't allow him to enter "into the land that I (as he explained to Moses) am giving to the people of Israel," (Deuteronomy 32:52) And God cited the specific reasons for his judgment of Moses, "because you broke faith with me in the midst of the people of Israel...and because you did not treat me as holy in the midst of the people of Israel." (Deuteronomy 32:51) In spite of all that Moses had "learned" and done, he apparently didn't get God's blessing of being allowed into the "promise land" because of his disobedience.

Please explain God's judgment against Moses, and I would still like your commentary regarding Noah and Abram's relationship with God. Thanks for these examples, but they still don't answer my question regarding the importance of "obedience" in the matter of "salvation".

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

As an Old Testament saint, Moses was not regenerated or justified, but he was a friend of God. (Exodus 33:11)

Paul mentions in Romans 3 that Old Testament believers were forgiven "in the forbearance of God" (Rom 3:25). A forbearance is a postponement on a debt—like when a student graduates from college but doesn't have a good enough job to repay his student loans, the feds may say "We'll give you five years— but then you'll have to start paying." In the Old Testament, God gave his people a forbearance until Christ could come and pay their sin-debt for them. In this way they could avoid the punishment for their sins, even though Christ had not yet died for them.

If Old Testament saints were regenerated, then there was no need for Christ to die. If anyone could possibly be regenerated because of his obedience and good works, then there was no need for Christ to die.

And if that were the case, then why did Old Testament saints abide in Paradise, not Heaven, until the death of Christ?

John 3
13“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."

Concerning regeneration and justification, we cannot compare Old Testament saints to today's believers except to say that even after we are justified we still make mistakes.

Moses made a mistake, but he did not "lose his salvation".

God buried him

Deuteronomy 34
5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

God protected him

Jude 1:9
But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

God honored him

Mark 9
2Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; 3and His garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them. 4Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.

The Lord disciplines those He loves, but He does not doom us to hell; we do not lose our salvation.

If regeneration has to do with our nature, justification with our standing, and adoption with our position, then sanctification has to do with our character and conduct. In justification we are declared righteous in order that, in sanctification, we may become righteous. Justification is what God does for us, while sanctification is what God does in us. Justification puts us into a right relationship with God, while sanctification exhibits the fruit of that relationship—a life separated from a sinful world and dedicated unto God.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Amen Carol!!!

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Thanks Carol, I understand that God's work of regeneration is not a one-step process. I'm just trying to understand how it was done in the period of the Old Testament prior to the specific revelation of God in Jesus.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

It wasn't done. Old Testament saints were not regenerated until after Christ died and decended into Hades, Abraham's Bosom, to preach and to impute His righteousness to His saints. ONLY the righteousness of Christ is perfect enough for Heaven.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
If Moses "graduated", he apparently didn't get his "diploma", because God didn't allow him to enter "into the land that I (as he explained to Moses) am giving to the people of Israel," (Deuteronomy 32:52) And God cited the specific reasons for his judgment of Moses, "because you broke faith with me in the midst of the people of Israel...and because you did not treat me as holy in the midst of the people of Israel." (Deuteronomy 32:51) In spite of all that Moses had "learned" and done, he apparently didn't get God's blessing of being allowed into the "promise land" because of his disobedience.

Please explain God's judgment against Moses, and I would still like your commentary regarding Noah and Abram's relationship with God. Thanks for these examples, but they still don't answer my question regarding the importance of "obedience" in the matter of "salvation".

Exodus 33:17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found "grace" in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found "grace" in the eyes of the Lord.

We are saved by what? "Grace".

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Moses was saved by grace through faith, not by what he did, last he should boast.

Noah was saved by grace through faith, not by what he did, last he should boast.

Abraham was saved by grace through faith, not by what he did, last he should boast.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Here are three men with this in common, "they found grace in the eyes of the Lord".

No one ever found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was lost.

Were they always obedient? No, but they were still friends of God, He didn't cast them away.

Was there a penalty for disobedience? Yes, God chastises His children with the rod of correction.

That could mean forty years in the wilderness.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

So redeemed sinners are "justified" as being "righteous" and "forgiven" of their sins in their relationship to God through God's "grace" and their faithful belief that Jesus is "Lord", and they are "sanctified" for service as "disciples" in the "kingdom of God" through the indwelling power of the Spirit who enables them to be obedient, to be chastised when they are not, to be forgiven of any new sins when they "repent", and to produce "fruit" for the glory of God as they live "in Christ", and God will never withdraw his sanctifying Spirit from anyone to whom he has given him even for the cause of disobedience. Do I have the relationship between "justification" and "sanctification" right?

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Caretaker,
You say, "The five foolish virgins were without oil in their lamps. Oil is the Biblical symbol of the Holy Spirit. Christ said He knew them not. Just like so many who pay lip-service to Christ but in whom He does not dwell, just as He knew not those in Matthew 7."

I understand from the text of this parable in Matthew 25:1-13 that the five "foolish virgins" "took no oil with them" when they went on their assigned duty to light the way for "the bridegroom". I assume that they must have had some "oil", which you say is the "Holy Spirit", otherwise I don't think that they would have even been given the assignment, and the text does indicate that they must have had some oil in their lamps when they "went to meet the bridegroom", because they said that "our lamps are going out" (Matthew 25:8) So why didn't they have enough "oil" or enough of "the Holy Spirit" to complete their assignment? What was it about their handling of their assignment that made they "foolish"? What should they have done to have more of "the Spirit" with them when they went on their assignment? Could their foolishness have been a matter of disobedience?

And Bloodbought, you indicate "Was there a penalty for disobedience? Yes, God chastises His children with the rod of correction.

That could mean forty years in the wilderness." But I would note that "forty years in the wilderness" was not a temporary act of God "chastising His children with the rod of correction"; it was a judgment of death for the older generations who had refused to enter the promised land that God had prepared for them.

So I'm still looking for some more insight into the importance of "obedience" for Christian disciples.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Most English translations of Matthew 25:3, including the KJV and the NASB, say the foolish virgins took NO oil.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Caretaker,
You say, "The five foolish virgins were without oil in their lamps. Oil is the Biblical symbol of the Holy Spirit. Christ said He knew them not. Just like so many who pay lip-service to Christ but in whom He does not dwell, just as He knew not those in Matthew 7."

I understand from the text of this parable in Matthew 25:1-13 that the five "foolish virgins" "took no oil with them" when they went on their assigned duty to light the way for "the bridegroom". I assume that they must have had some "oil", which you say is the "Holy Spirit", otherwise I don't think that they would have even been given the assignment, and the text does indicate that they must have had some oil in their lamps when they "went to meet the bridegroom", because they said that "our lamps are going out" (Matthew 25:8) So why didn't they have enough "oil" or enough of "the Holy Spirit" to complete their assignment? What was it about their handling of their assignment that made they "foolish"? What should they have done to have more of "the Spirit" with them when they went on their assignment? Could their foolishness have been a matter of disobedience?

And Bloodbought, you indicate "Was there a penalty for disobedience? Yes, God chastises His children with the rod of correction.

That could mean forty years in the wilderness." But I would note that "forty years in the wilderness" was not a temporary act of God "chastising His children with the rod of correction"; it was a judgment of death for the older generations who had refused to enter the promised land that God had prepared for them.

So I'm still looking for some more insight into the importance of "obedience" for Christian disciples.

TB you might want to look more closely at the scriptures, and seek to understand what they actually say:

Matthew 25:
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

and took NO OIL with them

It reminds me of the different soils in which the seed is planted. Only in the deep rich soil does it bear fruit. The other soils it does nothing but wither and die at best.

Not every one who says "Lord Lord", is born again, no matter how much they pay lip service to the things of Christ.

Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

From Gill's Exposition:

quote:

and took no oil with them: by oil is meant, not temporal blessings, nor spiritual ones, nor the Gospel, nor the gifts of the Spirit, all which are sometimes signified by oil; but either the Spirit of God himself, who is the oil of gladness, and the anointing which teacheth all things; or the regenerating and sanctifying grace of the Spirit, even all the graces which are implanted by him in conversion: this is so called, in allusion to the anointing oil under the law, in its excellent nature, its costly matter, its curious make, and particular application; and in the use of it to anoint both things, the tabernacle and its vessels, and persons, prophets, priests, and kings; see Exodus 30:23, &c. The grace of the Spirit being of an holy and sanctifying nature, exceeding valuable and precious, and a curious piece of workmanship, and what is only applied unto, and bestowed on the elect of God; and with which all the vessels of mercy, small and great, are anointed, and are made prophets, priests, and kings, and is what is, as that was, lasting and abiding: or else with respect to the precious oil, or ointment poured on Aaron's head, which was emblematical of the grace of the Spirit, which was poured forth, without measure, on Christ, and from him descends to all his members: or to the lamp oil for the candlestick in the tabernacle, which was oil olive, pure, beaten, and was for light, to cause the lamp to burn always; and fitly represented grace, which comes from Christ, the true olive tree; is pure, and of a purifying nature; and comes through a bruised, crucified Christ; and being put into the heart, causes the light of good works, and a becoming conversation, to shine forth: or else to oil in common, which is of a cheering and refreshing nature; is beautifying and adorning, supplying and healing, feeding and fattening, searching and penetrating, and will not mix with any thing else; upon all which accounts grace may be compared to it. Now these foolish virgins, though they took up a lamp of a profession, yet were unconcerned for the oil of grace, to fill, maintain, and trim this lamp: they were ignorant of the nature and use of true grace; they saw no need of it, and therefore did not ask for it, or about it; they neglected it, made light of it, and denied it as useless; and being destitute of it, took up their profession without it; and in this lay their folly.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Caretake, So am I to understand that the five "foolish virgins" had the wrong kind of "oil" while the five "wise virgins" had the right kind? Or did the "foolish virgins" have the wrong kind of "lamps" while the "wise virgins" had the right kind of "lamps"? I think that their failure in the assignment was due to their lack of enough "oil" and not to the nature of their "lamps".

Carol, The "foolish virgins" obviously had some "oil", because they indicated that in the course of their effort to complete their assignment that "our lamps are going out". (Matthew 25:8) Why didn't they have enough "oil"? Or why didn't they have the right kind of oil?

I'm still not getting a clear explanation regarding the importance of "obedience" in God's work of justification and sanctification.

I think that this parable is very important in regard to this subject, which is why I'm trying to clearly understand it, particularly in its relationship to Jesus' comments about "keeping" his "commandments" or obedience in John 14-15.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Physical Fire= Heat+fuel+O2
Spiritual Fire= Faith Hope Love

I never could figure what each corresponded to the Physical ?

A lantern is only a place where it can happen.

The Right oil is important ,

But I think its the heat and air that makes it fire up correctly.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Caretake, So am I to understand that the five "foolish virgins" had the wrong kind of "oil" while the five "wise virgins" had the right kind? Or did the "foolish virgins" have the wrong kind of "lamps" while the "wise virgins" had the right kind of "lamps"? I think that their failure in the assignment was due to their lack of enough "oil" and not to the nature of their "lamps".

Carol, The "foolish virgins" obviously had some "oil", because they indicated that in the course of their effort to complete their assignment that "our lamps are going out". (Matthew 25:8) Why didn't they have enough "oil"? Or why didn't they have the right kind of oil?

I'm still not getting a clear explanation regarding the importance of "obedience" in God's work of justification and sanctification.

I think that this parable is very important in regard to this subject, which is why I'm trying to clearly understand it, particularly in its relationship to Jesus' comments about "keeping" his "commandments" or obedience in John 14-15.

You need to take more time so that you read the passage correctly, and your arguments remind me so much of BA who spent so much time arguing semantics and minutia.

Not different oil, NO OIL.

The lamps had GONE OUT, kind of reminds one of the crops in the stoney soil which withered and died.

Matt. 25:
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

http://www.biblicaltheology.com/Research/CarterJ01.html

Paul: Faith is complete trust in, and obedience to, Jesus Christ.

Works are outward acts of ritual and adherence to a code to attain merit.

James: Faith is belief in Jesus Christ, the resurrection, and salvation.

Works are spontaneous acts of love that spring from the fruits of the Spirit.

"He [James] has no idea of disparaging faith, which he everywhere assumes as present and which he highly values. His point is that faith and works are inseparable in any properly constituted Christian life, and he argues this clearly and effectively."14

When we consider these presuppositions, we find that there is no conflict in doctrine between James and Paul. A common denominator between them is found in John, Chapter 15. "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit" (John 15:1-2, KJV.) Jesus is the source of works for those who have faith, and those works are presented in this chapter as "fruit." One would not expect an apple tree to bear figs, or an orange tree to bear potatoes. An apple tree bears apples because it is the nature of the tree to do so. Likewise, a Christian bears fruits of the spirit because it is the nature of the spirit within all Christians to do so. This is how James can say, "I will show thee my faith by my works" (2:19, KJV.) James is not referring to the keeping of Sabbath laws; he is referring to works that are fruits of the Spirit. Consequently, James can say that "faith without works is dead" (2:20, KJV.) For some believers, the understanding of this principle can be the difference of salvation. Belief in Jesus Christ is not sufficient for salvation:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:22-23, KJV.)

Works of the law that are outward acts of ritual for the purpose of receiving merit are of no value for attaining salvation. However, those who trust in and obey Jesus Christ will produce works that are motivated by the Spirit that will serve to build up the Kingdom of God by through the evangelism of the lost, the edifying of the saints, and the Glorification of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God, the Father. If those works are not evident in the life of a professing Christian, their level of trust and obedience in Christ is suspect.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Just like the foolish virgins with NO OIL.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Please stop telling me that "foolish virgins" "had no oil". They had enough to get their lamps lit. And why did you only quote from verses 22-23 of Matthew 7 without citing the importance of doing "the will of my Father who is in heaven" (verse 21), which stresses the importance of obedience to God's will in this important teaching by Jesus?

Who is arguing "minutia" when you keep referring to the verse that says the five "foolish virgins" had "NO OIL"? Please give me the point of Jesus' entire parable regarding these "ten virgins", explaining why they didn't have enough of the apparent burnable "oil". I've spent a lot of time studying this parable and related passages of Scripture and articles of theological commentary to try to clearly understand this matter.

Your reference to the parable of the "sower" and the "stony soil" (in Matthew 13) only makes the point that the "sower" sowed his "seed" in the wrong "soil". So are you implying to me that the "foolish virgins" had their "oil" in the wrong "lamps"?

Thanks for the link to the article about the "controversy" between the "faith" of Paul's teachings and the "works" of James' teachings. But I'm more specifically interested in trying to clearly understand the teachings of Jesus regarding the importance to "keep my commandments" for "abiding" in him in John 15 and his teaching regarding the five "foolish virgins" who were not permitted to enter the "bridegroom's" home for his "wedding feast" because they hadn't completed their assignment in Matthew 25.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

Hi TB125

If the foolish virgins were trying to put a match to a lamp with no oil they might get their fingers burned. The weak would burn out rapidly without the power of the oil.

Regarding obedience,
Obedience to Gods word is one very important aspect of the narrow path.

1 John 3:21–24 (ESV)
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

The path is narrowed down to one way traffic. Abiding, or remaining on the path in one direction, to one destination God, by one representative Jesus Christ, through one means Faith.

Without obedience to His commandment there is no faith.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

Lukewarm "Christians" Judgment Day-Are You Ready?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9vINvMb4R8&feature=player_embedded

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

After reading over your post this phrase pushed its way forwarded.

"the importance to "keep my commandments" for "abiding" in him "

sounds like one that thinks works are what allows one to remain in the body?

THE WISE AND FOOLISH VIRGINS

THE SHEEP AND GOATS

Matthew Twenty-Five

The kingdom of heaven at the end of the age shall be likened unto five wise virgins with lamps and oil, and five foolish virgins with lamps but no oil.

Matthew 25:6 to 12

“And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him. Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy the Bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with Him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But He answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.”

Inasmuch as the foolish ones are called “virgins,” it is not easy to say just how to interpret this parable. It is by no means certain that the parable is to be applied to the coming of the Lord Jesus for the Church which is His body.

As the correct translation of verse 8 is “our lamps are going out,” there are some Christians who teach that these foolish virgins represent those who were once saved and then lost their salvation. Again others teach that the lamp represents the individual’s testimony and the oil speaks of the Holy Spirit. Therefore the foolish virgins represent members of Church organizations who have never received the Holy Spirit.

It is doubtful whether the coming of the Son of man, according to Matthew 25:13, is His appearing for the Body described in Ephesians and Colossians. Christ is never called “the Son of man” in His relation to the Body.

However, the Scriptures do teach that only such church members as have been born of the Spirit are truly saved. There will be many unsaved professing Christians on earth when the Lord comes to take His Church to glory; and these unsaved ones will be left on earth, if not destroyed.

Perhaps we can receive help as to the meaning of the parable by studying the judgment described in Matthew 25:31 to 46. We quote:

Matthew 25:31 and 32 and 34 and 40:

“When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats.”

“Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the lest of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me.”

Here we have another Scripture which is very difficult to understand. We have Jesus Christ as the Son of man, as the King, sitting on a throne. This throne is to be set up after He comes to earth. He is to be both Judge and King. Nations will be judged by Him and divided, as a shepherd separates sheep and goats. To those on the right hand the King is to say, “Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

Matthew 25:34. To those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:41.

There is nothing to suggest that “fire” judgment is because of unbelief. Getting into the kingdom after Christ comes will be because of giving food and clothing to the brethren of the King, because of visiting the sick and those in prison.

How can we reconcile this with John 3:18: “He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God?”

Now note again II Timothy 1:9: “Who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus, before the world began.”

Also Colossians 1:13 and 14: “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son: In Whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins.”

And Romans 4:5: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

In these Scriptures we learn, first; that the individual is condemned because of unbelief. Second; that believers are already in Christ’s kingdom. Third; that they are saved, not by works, but according to God’s purpose, not from the foundation of the world, but before.

Of course we learn in God’s Book that faith without works is dead, and that we should give food and raiment to the needy.

We quote:

James 2:14 to 17

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

We are told in Romans 12:13 that Christians should distribute to the necessity of saints and should be given to hospitality. We read this message in Hebrews 6:10: “For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have shewed toward His name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.”

I Corinthians 15:58: “Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.”

We have two other messages in Corinthians:

II Corinthians 5:10

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ: that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

And:

I Corinthians 3:14 and 15:

“If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.”

But we must study and interpret all of these Scriptures in the light of God’s grace message for this age.

The clearest presentation of God’s grace message is found in Ephesians 2:8 to 10: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God bath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Very definitely and emphatically are we here told that salvation is not of works; that the good works are to be manifested after the believing sinner has been worked upon by God, after he has been saved by the good work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In God’s message we are taught that the sinner is justified, sanctified, and saved unto eternal life, by faith without works, but that he will be rewarded according to his works.

God’s grace program is so clearly set forth in:

Titus 2:11 to 14 and Titus 3:5 to 8 and 14:

“The grace of God that bringeth salvation . . .”

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done.” “ . . . our Saviour Jesus Christ: Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

“. . . And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.”

Getting into Christ’s kingdom in the day of grace is different from entering in to His Father’s kingdom after He comes as the Son of man. Therefore we see that there is more than one kingdom message in the Bible.

As members of the Body of Christ we should know the difference between God’s purpose for, with, through, and by Israel and His eternal purpose in Christ (Ephesians 3:9 to 11).

We quote:

Ephesians 1:3 and 4:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.”

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/ohair/HTML/BL5/chapter29.html

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Scripture does not tell us about the kind of lamps the virgins carried, or the type of oil, or the amount of oil in the empty lamps. It simply says the foolish virgins took NO oil.

These are the words of Christ. Do we want to argue with the Lord and say, "You're wrong. They had some oil because they said "our lamps are going out"?

The parable before this one is about being faithful until His return, and the parable after this one is about investing what He has trusted us with for His profit and glory until His return. But the parable about the virgins is simply about being ready for His return. We are told to watch and be alert because the hour of His return is unknown.

Of these three parables, why would we choose the parable of the virgins to answer a question about obedience? It is obedient to have faith and to love His appearing, but other than that this parable is not the best one to teach obedience.

One last thought, these were bridesmaids, not the bride.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Carol, I'm not trying to "argue" with the Lord or say that he is "wrong" when he indicates that these "five virgins" "took their lamps, they took no oil with them". (Matthew 25:3) But the "wise virgins" "took flasks of oil with their lamps". (vs. 5). But while they were all waiting to complete the assignment that had been given to them, the "foolish virgins" saw that their "lamps" were "going out" (vs. 8)

I'm focusing on this parable because I believe that "obedience" is an important part of "being ready". I think that it is an important part of the process of sanctification, which I believe is surrendering to the Spirit of God within the disciple to a degree that allows God to do his transforming and sanctifying work in the life of the person that he has justified through his grace which is received by the individual in his or her faithful belief in Jesus.

I appreciate your insights into the Scriptures, but I still find this parable to be somewhat of a challenge to understand. Thanks for your help.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Carol, I'm not trying to "argue" with the Lord or say that he is "wrong" when he indicates that these "five virgins" "took their lamps, they took no oil with them". (Matthew 25:3) But the "wise virgins" "took flasks of oil with their lamps". (vs. 5). But while they were all waiting to complete the assignment that had been given to them, the "foolish virgins" saw that their "lamps" were "going out" (vs. 8)

I'm focusing on this parable because I believe that "obedience" is an important part of "being ready". I think that it is an important part of the process of sanctification, which I believe is surrendering to the Spirit of God within the disciple to a degree that allows God to do his transforming and sanctifying work in the life of the person that he has justified through his grace which is received by the individual in his or her faithful belief in Jesus.

I appreciate your insights into the Scriptures, but I still find this parable to be somewhat of a challenge to understand. Thanks for your help.

Where is the shed blood of Christ in your thinking?

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

The "shed blood of Christ" or God's unmerited "grace" is the reason why these "ten virgins" had this assignment at all. They did not earn the honor of their selection by anything that they did. I assume that they were not the only "virgins" in the "bridegrooms" place of residence.

And neither did the "servants" do anything to earn the "talents" that their "master" gave to each of them according to the parable in Matthew 25:14-30, but they were each held accountable for what they did with the "talents" that they had been given.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

If we're going to make assumptions, then we need to know everything we can about the marriage customs of that time. It could be that the bridesmaids were friends of the bride, as in today's American weddings, and the groom didn't know them at all. And what kind of lamps did they use? Could it be that there was a residue of oil inside the empty lamps and on the wicks from the last time the lamps were used so that when the foolish virgins lit their lamps they burned momentarily from the residue, but then went out? And why did the wise virgins need to carry oil in a flask instead of in their lamps? We don't carry the Holy Spirit in a lamp or in a flask, so what is the significance of a flask?

Without having a very clear understanding of all the details, our assumptions will only lead to confusion and false conclusions.

I think it's more important for us to ask what do we need to do to be prepared for the Lord's return.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Carol, I see your point about "assumptions", so what is the basic point of this entire parable? What do disciples need to do to be ready for Jesus' return?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

At the end of the parable the Lord says,

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 25:13)

This is what we need to do to obey Him, at least as far as this particular parable is concerned.

Perhaps the point of the parable is not about lighting lamps at all, but is instead about being present and watchful when He comes.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Carol, you say that "Perhaps the point of the parable is not about lighting lamps at all, but is instead about being present and watchful when He comes." Or could the point be that one must obediently be doing what one was selected to do when He (the bridegroom) comes?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

I agree that we should all do the work He gives us to do...

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

...but He could come while we are sleeping or driving or shopping for groceries. We can't always be working.

But we can always be spiritually watchful and devoted to Him.

Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father (Colossians 3:17)

This parable about the ten virgins does not say to be working. Other parables do, but not this one. It says, Christ says, to WATCH for Him.

So the next question would be, what does it mean to "watch"?

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Carol, These "foolish virgins" were not "watching" for the "bridegroom" who had instructed them to "watch" for him so that they could light the way for him and his bride. They were shopping for more "oil" for their lamps that were going out. They were not where they were suppose to be when the "bridegroom" came, so they were not able to follow him and his bride into his home for the "wedding feast". Their "foolishness" was not just a single matter of not "watching"; it was a matter of not being prepared to do what they had been commanded to do and to stay where they had been told to stay.I'm sure that you can see this point in this parable. Let's not quibble about these words any longer. This discussion has probably gone on long enough. Thanks for your input.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

SERVING GOD AND WAITING FOR HIS SON

According to I Thessalonians 1:9 and 10, the Christian has been turned to God from
idols, to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, Whom He raised
from the dead; Jesus, Who delivered us from the wrath to come. Wonderful truth in these two
verses. What glorious truth, “delivered from the wrath to come,” because the Lord Jesus Christ
was delivered for our offenses (Romans 4:25).

Is it any wonder that the Christian is told
“whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the Name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God,
the Father, by Him?” (Colossians 3:17). Then remember the words of the Lord Jesus, in John
12:26, “if any man serve Me, him will My Father honour.” While the Christian is waiting forGod’s Son from heaven he should be like Mary, occupied with Christ, and like Martha, occupied
for Christ (Luke 10:38 to 42.). No one is delivered from the wrath to come because that one
serves God and Christ; but because of the death and resurrection of the eternal, sinless Son of
God. The Christian serves, or should serve, because he is saved. Every Christian is instructed to
behave as becometh a saint. (Ephesians 5:1 to 4—I Timothy 3:15—Ephesians 4:1 to 3). No one
becomes a saint, or a Christian, by behaving, but by believing. Believers are not saved by joining
some church organization. Believers are made members of the Body of Christ by grace through
faith in the Son of God. But Christians gather with the Lord’s people of like precious faith
because they are saved by grace and are on the way to heaven, waiting for God’s Son from
heaven.

Surely we know that living the Christian life is a full time job; that God’s spiritual
standard for His redeemed people is a high and holy standard, to “stand perfect and complete in
all the will of god.” (Colossians 4:12). The Lord’s will concerning all of the members of His
Body is recorded in Colossians 1:9 and 10: “that ye might be filled with the knowledge of His
will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all
pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God.” You will
agree that this is a large order, as is also I Thessalonians 5:22, “abstain from all appearance of
evil.”

A person may be saved by hearing and believing one or two verses of Scripture; born
again by the Word of God (I Peter 1:23). Faith cometh by hearing and believing the Word of
God (Romans 10:17). Then Christians are to begin with the sincere milk of the Word (I Peter 2:1
and 2), go on unto perfection, from milk to the strong meat (Hebrews 5:11 to 6:3), built up by
God’s Word of grace (Acts 20: 32), no longer children (Ephesians 4:14—I Corinthians 3:8 to
13), but established according to Romans 16:25. So the Christian should join with the prophet of
old and say: “Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and Thy word was unto me the joy and
rejoicing of mine heart,” “more necessary than my daily food.” (Jeremiah 15:16—Job 23:12).

Therefore, the Christian should day and night study and search the Scriptures diligently under
the guidance and instruction of the infallible Teacher, the Holy Spirit, and find God’s Word a
lamp unto his feet and a light unto his path way.
As Christians we should ever know that “God, Who commandeth the light to shine out of
darkness, hath shined into our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in
the face of Jesus Christ.” (II Corinthians 4:6). As we walk worthy of the calling wherewith we
are called (Ephesians 4:1), seeking those things which are above (Colossians 3:1 to 5), we are
expected to be faithful ambassadors of reconciliation, beseeching sinners, and begging them, to
be reconciled to God and become new creatures in Christ Jesus (II Corinthians 5:17 to 20), being
ever mindful of the great reconciling truth of II Corinthians 5:21.

Christians are to be careful to maintain good works. This we are told in Titus 3:8 and 14
after the ‘grace’ salvation message in Titus 3:1 to 7, that no person is saved by his works, but by
the work of the Tri-une God. Then note Titus 2:11 to 14: “for the grace of God that bringeth
salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us, that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we
should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world: Looking for that blessed hope,
appearing in glory of the great God, our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who gave Himself for us, that He
might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good
works.” If only one message had been preserved for Christians, none could be more
comprehensive and important than this one. Here we see what the grace of God teaches. It
teaches a very high and holy standard. In somewhat different language the same high spiritualstandard is contained in II Timothy 2:19, “let every one that nameth the Name of Christ depart
from iniquity”
Christians are instructed, in I Corinthians 3:9 and 10, that they are workers together with
God and they are to recognize the apostle Paul as the wise masterbuilder and with him they are
to take heed how they ‘BUILD THE HOUSE TOGETHER’ upon the foundation which Paul
laid.

The Greek word, translated ‘BUILDETH’ is ‘SUN-OIKODOMEO,’ ‘BUILD THE HOUSE
TOGETHER.’ With this task God has given another assignment to Christians, in Ephesians 3:9,
“make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery” . . this according to God’s eternal purpose.
(Ephesians 3:11—Ephesians 1:11 and Ephesians 1:4 and 5, and II Timothy 1:9). If the Christian
is to be a success in the work assigned to him, he must put on the whole armour of God to stand
against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11 to 20).
In order that the Christian might maintain the high and holy standard given him in the
Bible, God has made available His power (Ephesians 3:20 and Ephesians 1:19 to 23), His ‘ALL
GRACE’ (II Corinthians 9:8), all spiritual blessings (Ephesians 1:3), the guarantee to supply
every need. (Philippians 4:19—I Corinthians 10: 13) .

RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

In II Timothy 2:15 Christians are instructed to rightly divide the Word of Truth, so that
they might be approved by God as workmen not ashamed. Christians are also expected to be like
the noble Bereans, who received the Word with all readiness of mind and then searched the
Scriptures daily to determine whether the message they heard was true. (Acts 17:11).
Ministers of Christ are expected to be faithful stewards of the mysteries of God. (I
Corinthians 4:1 to 4). In Paul’s writings we read of ‘the mystery of God’s will’ (Ephesians 1:9);
‘the mystery of the gospel’ (Ephesians 6:19 and 20), ‘the mystery of Christ’ (Colossians 4:3 and
4 and Ephesians 3:1 to 3); ‘the dispensation of the mystery’ (Ephesians 3:9). We read this truth
in Romans 16:25: “Now to Him that is able to stablish you according to my gospel, and the
preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of ‘the mystery’ kept secret since the world
began.” In Ephesians 3:8 the Holy Spirit referred to the mystery kept secret since the world
began as ‘the unsearchable (past-tracing-out) riches of Christ.’ If that truth was kept secret since
the world began, ‘hid in God’ from the beginning of the world (Ephesians 3:9), ‘hid from ages
and from generations’ (Colossians 1:26), it was not prophesied or mentioned in any of the Books
from Genesis to Malachi.

Therefore it was not ‘searchable,’ as was the truth of Acts 17:3 to 11.
Paul testified that he received his ‘grace’ gospel, by revelation, from the risen Christ.
(Galatians 1:11 and 12). Paul testified that ‘the dispensation of the grace of God,’ ‘the mystery,’
was given him by revelation; that Christ revealed it unto him after it had been hid for more than
4000 years. (Ephesians 3:1 to 3).
In Romans 11:25 we learn that God ushered in a period of very special favour for
Gentiles when and because He sent blindness upon Israel (Romans 11:9 to 15). This period and
reign of grace is now running its course, and will end with the realization of the blessed hope, the
appearing in glory of the Lord Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13), at which time the members of his Body
will appear with Him in glory. (Colossians 3:3 and 4—I John 3:2—Philippians 3:20 and 21).

http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/ohair/GRACE%20WORKS%20IN%20ADOBE/LIVING%20THE%20CHRISTIAN%20LIFE.pdf

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

Carol said,

quote:
If we're going to make assumptions, then we need to know everything we can about the marriage customs of that time. It could be that the bridesmaids were friends of the bride, as in today's American weddings, and the groom didn't know them at all. And what kind of lamps did they use? Could it be that there was a residue of oil inside the empty lamps and on the wick from the last time the lamp was used so that when the foolish virgins lit their lamps they burned momentarily from the residue, but then went out? And why did the wise virgins need to carry oil in a flask instead of in their lamps? We don't carry the Holy Spirit in a lamp or in a flask, so what is the significance of a flask?

Without having a very clear understanding of all the details, our assumptions will only lead to confusion and false conclusions.

I think it's more important for us to ask what do we need to do to be prepared for the Lord's return.

Being prepared seems to be the whole point of this parable. He said "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh". Matthew 25:13.

Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Clearly they had containers or flasks to carry oil to refill their lamps. It was the contents of the flask that made the difference between the wise and foolish virgins. The wise virgins took oil in their vessels with their lamps. The foolish virgins took no oil. All of them had lamps and all of them had flasks, but the wise virgins had full flasks while the foolish virgins had empty flasks. So in order to be prepared all of us possess a flask that must be filled to keep our lamp burning. The question is how often and by what means is it transferred to our lamp?

TB125 said,

quote:
Carol, These "foolish virgins" were not "watching" for the "bridegroom" who had instructed them to "watch" for him so that they could light the way for him and his bride. They were shopping for more "oil" for their lamps that were going out. They were not where they were suppose to be when the "bridegroom" came, so they were not able to follow him and his bride into his home for the "wedding feast". Their "foolishness" was not just a single matter of not "watching"; it was a matter of not being prepared to do what they had been commanded to do and to stay where they had been told to stay.

They knew that they needed more oil so they went shopping, but when they returned the door was shut.

Did they not succeed in getting oil, was it the wrong oil, or were they just to late? Or, should they just have stayed where they were without oil?

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Brothers and sister in Christ, I'm sure that each of you know that all of these parables about not knowing "the day or the hour" for Jesus' return in Matthew 24:36-25:46 were not initially written with divisions for the chapters and verses. I think that means that they all had a common point to illustrate about this important matter. I think that if you study them carefully you will see that the "wicked servant" failed "to give them (the members of the master's household} their food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45), the "foolish virgins" failed to "meet the bridegroom" because they went "to buy" more "oil" (Mt. 25:1, 10), the "wicked and slothful servant" failed to invest the "talent" that his master had given to him "with the bankers" but had hidden it "in the ground"(Mt. 25:18, 26-27), and the "people...on the left" failed to feed "the hungry" or to "welcome" "a stranger" or to "visit" the "sick" as "the Lord" (Mt. 25:42-46) obviously expect them to do. In every one of these parables the different individuals were judged because they failed to do what "the Lord" expected them to do. I trust that you can see this common point as you study these parables.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Brothers and sister in Christ, I'm sure that each of you know that all of these parables about not knowing "the day or the hour" for Jesus' return in Matthew 24:36-25:46 were not initially written with divisions for the chapters and verses. I think that means that they all had a common point to illustrate about this important matter. I think that if you study them carefully you will see that the "wicked servant" failed "to give them (the members of the master's household} their food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45), the "foolish virgins" failed to "meet the bridegroom" because they went "to buy" more "oil" (Mt. 25:1, 10), the "wicked and slothful servant" failed to invest the "talent" that his master had given to him "with the bankers" but had hidden it "in the ground"(Mt. 25:18, 26-27), and the "people...on the left" failed to feed "the hungry" or to "welcome" "a stranger" or to "visit" the "sick" as "the Lord" (Mt. 25:42-46) obviously expect them to do. In every one of these parables the different individuals were judged because they failed to do what "the Lord" expected them to do. I trust that you can see this common point as you study these parables.

Well what my KJV says..

Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

go figure?

WildB

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Carol, These "foolish virgins" were not "watching" for the "bridegroom" who had instructed them to "watch" for him so that they could light the way for him and his bride. They were shopping for more "oil" for their lamps that were going out. They were not where they were suppose to be when the "bridegroom" came, so they were not able to follow him and his bride into his home for the "wedding feast". Their "foolishness" was not just a single matter of not "watching"; it was a matter of not being prepared to do what they had been commanded to do and to stay where they had been told to stay.I'm sure that you can see this point in this parable. Let's not quibble about these words any longer. This discussion has probably gone on long enough. Thanks for your input.

Well, God bless you TB125! These are the very points I tried to make when I said:

quote:
If we're going to make assumptions, then we need to know everything we can about the marriage customs of that time. It could be that the bridesmaids were friends of the bride, as in today's American weddings, and the groom didn't know them at all. And what kind of lamps did they use? Could it be that there was a residue of oil inside the empty lamps and on the wick from the last time the lamp was used so that when the foolish virgins lit their lamps they burned momentarily from the residue, but then went out? And why did the wise virgins need to carry oil in a flask instead of in their lamps? We don't carry the Holy Spirit in a lamp or in a flask, so what is the significance of a flask?

Without having a very clear understanding of all the details, our assumptions will only lead to confusion and false conclusions.

I think it's more important for us to ask what do we need to do to be prepared for the Lord's return.

and

quote:
At the end of the parable the Lord says,

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." (Matthew 25:13)

This is what we need to do to obey Him, at least as far as this particular parable is concerned.

Perhaps the point of the parable is not about lighting lamps at all, but is instead about being present and watchful when He comes.

Personally, I am not comfortable with the idea that the oil represents the Holy Spirit because the foolish virgins were told by the wise virgins to GO AWAY and BUY their own oil.

So glad we're looking at this parable in a different way now!

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Brothers and sister in Christ, I'm sure that each of you know that all of these parables about not knowing "the day or the hour" for Jesus' return in Matthew 24:36-25:46 were not initially written with divisions for the chapters and verses. I think that means that they all had a common point to illustrate about this important matter. I think that if you study them carefully you will see that the "wicked servant" failed "to give them (the members of the master's household} their food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45), the "foolish virgins" failed to "meet the bridegroom" because they went "to buy" more "oil" (Mt. 25:1, 10), the "wicked and slothful servant" failed to invest the "talent" that his master had given to him "with the bankers" but had hidden it "in the ground"(Mt. 25:18, 26-27), and the "people...on the left" failed to feed "the hungry" or to "welcome" "a stranger" or to "visit" the "sick" as "the Lord" (Mt. 25:42-46) obviously expect them to do. In every one of these parables the different individuals were judged because they failed to do what "the Lord" expected them to do. I trust that you can see this common point as you study these parables.

I agree. All of these parables, as well as everything our Lord Jesus Christ taught us during His earthly ministry, are about loving God above all, and loving others as ourselves.

In the first parable the evil servants were cruel to others, and in the next they were foolish and unprepared (and wanted to take from the more prudent) and consequently they completely failed to greet the bridegroom, and in the third he was so self-concerned that he was totally unproductive, and in the last they were selfish and hard-hearted toward the needy.

Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”

And He said to him, “ ‘ You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘ You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’

On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:36-40)

But, unless I'm mistaken, you are referring to more specific tasks when you say

quote:
what "the Lord" expected them to do.

Have you been given a specific task to do? Do you think that you will be judged and cast out if you fail to do it well?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hi Bloodbought

quote:
Being prepared seems to be the whole point of this parable. He said "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh". Matthew 25:13.

I agree!

quote:
Did they not succeed in getting oil, was it the wrong oil, or were they just to late? Or, should they just have stayed where they were without oil?

I think they knew they were supposed to greet the bridegroom on this very important day for him, and they knew they would need oil for their lamps. They should have been thoughtful and prepared, but they weren't. They didn't just have too little oil, or the wrong oil. They brought NO oil! So, they weren't there watching for the bridegroom when he came; they weren't there to greet him with their lamps. So when they came to the wedding feast late he didn't know them and wouldn't let them in.

We know Jesus is going to return, but we don't know when. We need to be prepared and watching for Him.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Carol, You ask me, "Have you been given a specific task to do? Do you think that you will be judged and cast out if you fail to do it well?"

Yes, I think that I have been called to preach and to teach the gospel of Jesus. I was called when I was 19, and started preaching at age 22 while I was still in college. It took me 9 years to finish the appropriate degree programs before I was ordained. I then was actively engaged in my ministry for 21 years, before I lost it because of my own faults. It was later restored to me by God's renewed call. Although I retired from my "professional" ministry 15 years ago, I can't find the word "retirement" in the Bible, so I continue with my ministry on my website and in forums, such as this. God has given me a gift for writing, and I believe that if I don't "invest" it well or use it in a profitable way to glorify Him, I will be held accountable. I pray that my failures will not cause my Lord to cast me into "outer darkness", so I "press on". But I think that I've pressed enough on this matter. Thanks for your questions. I trust that a little of my testimony shows from where I'm coming in regard to this matter in this thread.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Okay. May God bless you richly in all you do! You are a good friend to all of us.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

I can't find the word "retirement" in the Bible

Numbers 8

23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
24 This is it that belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation:

25 And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more:

26 But shall minister with their brethren in the tabernacle of the congregation, to keep the charge, and shall do no service.

Thus shalt thou do unto the Levites touching their charge.

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Bill, Thanks for this reference regarding the "service" of the Levites. According to my notes in my ESV Study Bible, when they reached the age of 50 they were no longer required to carry the tabernacle as the Israelites moved around, but they were given a less rigorous task of "keeping guard" (Num 8:26). Since I've retired, I don't spend 40-50 hours a week in ministry (as I did when I was actively serving churches) on my computer, and I don't have to attend a lot of church business meetings, but I don't think that the Lord wants me to put my "gift" on the shelf, so I keep trying to serve him with it.

Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Hi Bloodbought

quote:
Being prepared seems to be the whole point of this parable. He said "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh". Matthew 25:13.
I agree!

quote:
Did they not succeed in getting oil, was it the wrong oil, or were they just to late? Or, should they just have stayed where they were without oil?
I think they knew they were supposed to greet the bridegroom on this very important day for him, and they knew they would need oil for their lamps. They should have been thoughtful and prepared, but they weren't. They didn't just have too little oil, or the wrong oil. They brought NO oil! So, they weren't there watching for the bridegroom when he came; they weren't there to greet him with their lamps. So when they came to the wedding feast late he didn't know them and wouldn't let them in.

We know Jesus is going to return, but we don't know when. We need to be prepared and watching for Him.

They weren’t letting their light shine.

Mathew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.