Christian Message Boards: Why change?

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

In response to another post I have this comment. But first the quote:

quote:
But it is precisely in the light that we see with greatest clarity the remaining evil of our own hearts.

Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

The passage reads, "whatsoever doth make manifest is light." In light of the quote above, and compared to the verse of Eph 5:13, it should be easily understood that the idea that the light 'maketh manifest', is such that one clearly knows 'what' to repent of. So the question begs, how far can one repent, since the writer seemes only to "see with greater clarity," remaining evil? The answer of course, is all of the way. And that is how far one 'is' to repent. Therefore no other lengthy explaination is needed, as one should, rather than 'explaining away' why he or she is still abiding in the darkness, unrepentant, he or she should 'repent', that the one should be "In the Light."

Remember, "If the eye is single, the whole body will be full of light. The 'eye' referenced here is the "heart." Therefore the passage reads that if the heart is single, and not double, the individual will be entirely enlightened. Of couse this is a reference to 'unbelief'. For unbelief is the sin that prevents us from realizing the full revelation of Christ our Lord, as HE is to us.

The author, in the case of the particular article which the opening quote is pulled from seems to ignore particular truth as recorded in scripture, such as:

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

For this passage says that if we meet the qualification HE has enabled us to meet, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin. "All" doesn't mean, everything except what is 'remaining'. It is a blanket statement.

It is not that one cannot sin in the next 'moment', but the indication is that one can "go all the way." And certainly he should 'stay' if he reaches that far. And he would want to. However, if one always believes that he or she can never reach that pinnacle, all that one will be able to do is to explain away what they don't understand, by using his or her own understanding (leaning to one's own understanding.)

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

It becomes more difficult when addressing one who thinks to himself that he is smart. And when such an one wants to post in order to see himself in print, he will not be apt, or inclined to wise instruction, for that is not what he is seeks. Can the Etheopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Indeed he cannot. But Christ can change his heart, sooner than that of one who is already convinced of his own wisdom. "For those who are well, need not a physician."

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

But, "The effectual fervent prayer.... it availeth much." ?/? Does it now? Day after day a man or woman 'prays' a fervent prayer. Is it an 'effectual' fervent prayer? Indeed, how can it be? For they disregard that the prayer of a 'righteous' man, availeth much. But by the standard of some, there is no such thing as a righteous man. For if he looks in his heart and finds 'stuff' remaining, if he looks in the closets and lo and behold they are dark, he cannot fit the description of a righteous man. But that is as high as most believe that one can reach, since 'stuff' is remaining. Therefore, by their understanding, if it were a standard to judge by, this passage needn't be in scripture. Neither should there be a plethora of others.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
None of us will be saved because we are perfect or because anything we do earns God's approval. The peace of God and the mercy of God are free gifts purchased on Calvary for all who walk by this rule—the rule of Christ-exaltation, not self-exaltation. Right standing with God is not merited by works. It is given....
quote:
Peter Piper, who may or may not have picked a peck of pickled pepper!

STOP! STOP! Stop it there! That is good. That is a very good stopping point, where he says, "IT IS GIVEN."

It is given, bless God. But the point of the author overall was that the verse stated the qualifications which enable one to benefit the benefit, was not faith (which of course it is anyway) but to 'glory'. And that says it well if one understands the definition of the word as it is used here. And that would be, that '(to)glory', in its context here, means 'to receive'. For to 'glory' in the Cross is to receive the Christ. For it is the same, if compared, as to 'reckon' one's self DEAD unto sin, and alive unto God. (Rom 6:11) For then one is not who he was, but is the vehicle of Christ unto the edification of the church by his very receiving of Christ (but not to the rebellious). And one cannot 'receive' Christ as long as he is not dead unto sin. Indeed, he pushes Christ away, holding HIM at arm's length, though he may go through the motions, and the lip service, and pleading. And the only thing wrong with pleading is that it does not recognize what one already has. Therefore the absence of faith is what penalizes the one, keeping him from 'receiving'.

quote:

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Michael,

We all examine ourselves before the Lord like the scripture tells us to do. Keep this in mind: The closer we get to a Holy God, the more flaws we will see in ourselves. That's a Given!

I think the point in the writers statement is that God is Holy. There is none, no one that can stand in His presence and NOT see their unworthiness.

There is great comfort in knowing that;
1. We are not and will not be perfect in this life--BUT we are accepted and loved. We examine ourselves and remain open to and in Him.
2. The "Perfect one" purchased our acceptance. That was and is sufficient to The Father...we remain in Him, examining ourselves always.

This builds a great relationship with Him.

It causes us to humble ourselves and praise Him.
That gives Jesus all the glory. He gave everything for us!
And that's the point.

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

I also want to share something else. As I just typed that last script and walked into the other room a chorus of a song rose in my heart. When I was first saved in a little country church we use to sing a song. I don't know if you've ever heard this song or not but it speaks of The Father's view of us. He joys over His children and views us worthy of His love, investment, patience, Son and an everlasting kingdom of joy and peace. He looks at us with an indescribable love.

When He sees me, He sees The Blood of The Lamb
He sees me as worthy, And not as I am
He views me in garments as white as the snow
For The Lamb of God Is worthy, And He washed me this I know...

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

He purchased dear (I hope you are dear), our perfection. Why am I the one who gets to say this? I am the sorriest, and most imperfect dudhead anyone could come up with. And maybe that is why. Because it is not my merit, but HIS power that accomplishes this. It is not even my great faith, as though I have a truckload. NO! HE says that faith as the grain of a mustard seed accomplishes this.

You see, who among us does not rationalize the word? Any why? It is because, if something doesn't fit our understanding, we have to come up with something that will meet our thinking in order to feel that we are somehow accepted, or in compliance. And our 'notion' of compliance is way below HIS concept. But we settle for it. But it is all that we can 'understand'. But our understanding, IS THE NATURAL MAN'S, OR CARNAL NATURE'S understanding. That of course means that we are not 'dead' as we suppose, and that we have to learn what it means, because the natural nature interferes with spiritual understanding.

Anyway, everyone says we are 'to do' what God commands. And everybody sets out 'doing' something, thinking he is obeying. But here is a command that is not only ignored, it is flatly refused. And if one cannot keep one, he cannot keep any, yet he feels he can pick and choose.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus said it. Michael didn't make it up. Neither does anybody bother with it because it is impossible. So it is case closed for 99.7 percent of believers. (And HE is coming for a 100 percent Holy Church.) But Jesus said it, and it is a command. So, why does no one who insists that God says to 'do' this, or to 'do' that, set out to 'do' it, selectively, and leave the ones he wants to ignore out of it? The way God sees it, we don't get to select.

But here is the punchline. HE who said "Be ye perfect," said also, "Let there be light." So who does the doing? Neither do we realize until we 'let' Him.

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

You have heard that it was said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. For He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don't even the Gentiles do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I guess we need to start with the verses leading up to what Jesus is saying about perfection then? He is talking about love. Who is perfect in loving? Loving their neighbor, enemies, President?

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

I thought of this verse...

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

got2go2bed now [zzzzzz]

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

We cannot love, except by Him. He loves. If we are crucified with Him, we are 'filled' with His love. In spite of how we are 'interpreted', HIS ability is our ability. Herein is our 'perfection'.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

PERFECTION...Just what does it mean when this word is used in the bible ?

The best I can find out is that it means Wholeness and completeness. A word used to describe any plant, animal or person emphasizing the achievement level of maturity or morality expected, given the nature of it.

In Greek "teleios" applies to people in the NT times. Means to be fulfilled , mature or fully equipped for a task.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

We can hope and pray for perfection. And we can hope and pray that we know what perfection is.

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Lesson 25 (teacher--?)
Perfect In Christ Jesus

Col 1:28-29 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.KJV

I. Paul Warns
a. The Greek word for warning used here means to put in mind; to admonish; to exhort.

b. Paul’s admonition to the hearers was that they should attend to the doctrinal instruction which he provided.

c. This "warning" refers to conduct and leads to repentance, warning is addressed to the heart. Prov 4:1-9;

d. Warning fellow believers is a responsibility we all bear because it opens the eyes of the heart to recognize an existing or potential problem, and makes restoration possible. Gal 6:1

e. Unless and until one recognizes a problem, one is powerless to do anything about it. Prov 5:1-8; 7:21-28
What are some examples of how the scripture warns us? When we see in the pages of scripture that we have a sin nature we are being warned.

f. When we warn people of what they do amiss, we must teach them what to do in place of those things that are error. Warning and teaching must go together. Col3:8-9

g. Exhortation and warning are of little use where there is not sound instruction and a careful inculcation of the truth. Prov 2:1-7

h. For example, warning of a problem does little to help one avoid falling into the pitfalls and traps of life in flesh until one is taught to distinguish between spirit and the flesh. Gal 5:17

II. Paul Teaches
a. "Teaching" strengthens faith, refers to doctrine, and is addressed to the spirit. 1 Cor 2:4-12

b. It is when we have knowledge that we are empowered in our spirit with the ability to choose. Ps 25:12-14

c. Men must be warned and taught in all wisdom. Col 1:9; Prov 1:20, 23; Rom 12:1-2

d. Understanding (application) of this wisdom is found primarily by the activity of ruminating on the word of God. Ps 119:99

e. As the word of God is taught by men, the Holy Spirit works in hearts to illuminate, correct and train those whom the Lord seeks to influence. 2 Tim 3:16
III The Goal of “Perfection”

a. That which Paul aimed at was to present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

b. This means mature/ complete in the transforming knowledge of Christ and the Christian doctrine. Phil 3:8-15; Eph 3:17-19; 2 Tim 3:17

c. There are two purposes behind this transformation: Temporal and Eternal

1. Temporal: To cause the individual believer to be utterly sold out and committed to Christ in all things and at all times. Gal 2:20; Col 3:1-2

2. Eternal: To bring glory to Christ when he presents to himself a glorious church through the spirits of just men made perfect. Eph 5:27; Heb 12:23.

d. Paul’s labor, striving and hardship were enabled by the surpassing power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Eph 3:7

IV. Application
a. Do you have a part to play in cooperating with the Holy Spirit toward the goal of your own process of maturing?

b. If so, what can you do?

Are you [zzzzzz]

bluefrog?

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Yes, I was asleep. Ole' silver tongue came on TV so I gave up.

Thanks for your input. The Lord want's us to be perfect and believe me that is the answer to the subject here of "Why Change".

Welllllll, being a drill instructor and just myself I almost was perfect but .......LOL and LOL! The Lord is not alone on that, because I can think of no one who doesn't want me to be perfect, and some tell me so. All married people get told that for sure. In my case I surely have been told that at least once a day so that comes to about 18,980 times. Haven't made it yet but Lord, don't give up on me. I'm glad He has a sence of humor.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
IV. Application
a. Do you have a part to play in cooperating with the Holy Spirit toward the goal of your own process of maturing?

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And evil thinks it will 'help' the Holy Spirit in the process of one's maturing.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
Welllllll, being a drill instructor and just myself I almost was perfect but .......LOL and LOL! The Lord is not alone on that, because I can think of no one who doesn't want me to be perfect, and some tell me so. All married people get told that for sure. In my case I surely have been told that at least once a day so that comes to about 18,980 times. Haven't made it yet but Lord, don't give up on me. I'm glad He has a sence of humor.

The devil is your drill instructor (plural). It is he who lays into you, and tells you where you come up short. You can silence him by hiding in Christ. He cannot fault Christ. But where 'you' stand out, that is fair game for belzeebub.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Thank You Michael. That is the first kind thing you have said to me in a long time.

It is nice to know that someone thinks that the devil is concerned about me. However, he is not my plural drill instructor and you are sadly mistaken if you think I listen to his commands.

I know you didn't mean anything good about what you said but it could be taken that way which is common due to lack of clarity.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Why change? Because life goes better with God in the driver's seat; when God does the driving, it's good to be in the passenger seat.

I shouldn't try to sit in God's lap and block His view.

love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

That is not a direct and personal statement bf. It is a generalization. I intended to illustrate that the devil is the accuser of the brethren. And he has a rightful place therein insomuch as where a saint does not abide in Christ, satan is able to accuse him before the Lord. He has no cover for what is exposed in ignorance or otherwise. For this we have the scriptures to guide us on how to hide in HIM.

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

A Study of the word "perfect" as found in the Bible.
Strong's and Brown-Driver-Briggs' numbering for the Hebrew: H8549 (Old Testament)
Strong's and Thayer's numbering for the Greek: G5046 (New Testament)

In the Old Testament, faith was put in the Law to make those under it sanctified. Knowing that the Law made nothing perfect, as it was but a shadow of good things to come, the Son became the author and profector of our faith; which is faith in grace and not in the Law. Under the Law, they were giving sacrificial rules and regulations in order to receive a cleansing, by which to stand before God without blemish. Therefore, seeing that it was the works of these rules and regulations which made the participants temporarily perfect before God, then we are to rule out that it is not by works that we achieve perfection. For perfection does not come out of that which is feared, but that which is already perfected. They, those under the Law, did live throughout their whole lifetime in fear of death, held in bondage to such a thing which always condemned when it was not completely fulfilled. But there is no fear in love, which Love was bestowed upon us through grace. And once we have achieved perfect love, fear is casted away. Indeed, the Law is casted away once we are under grace. It is those who fear the punishment of breaking the Law, those who say, "It is a command! It is a command and we must follow it!", who do not understand that we are under grace and not under the Law. With this in mind, this I must say, "It is our love for God which guides us to follow His commands and not the fear of punishment which guides us, and of which, only leads to condemnation." One cannot fear and love, as fear projects dread. One cannot love and fear, as love projects adoration.

It was because of the great love which God has towards us that He sent His Son to die for us. So that we, not through the Law but through His act of grace, may receive an everlasting pardon, and hence, to continuously stand perfect before Him, without ever having to rely on the act of continuous sacrificing. Something the Law was continuously obligated to do. It is only through God's grace, by which means we draw near to God, that we have a better hope for perfection. So then, if it is not through works (doings of the Law), then it must be through grace in which we receive perfection. It is here that we are to know that it was through one offering, an eternal offering, in which Jesus had perfected, forevermore, those who are sanctified, those who are justified. He Himself having been made perfect through the sufferings He endured and not by the works of His flesh. Listen: Without faith, one is not made perfect. So it is, by faith we are sanctified and being sanctified we HAD BEEN perfected. And none of it was by any work of our own, but by the offering of One.

As we are to be upright (perfect) when dealing with the LORD our God, we are told to also be upright, that is, being of one mind, one standard, when we deal with others. If one were to ask for food, he is not to be denied because we deem him to be wicked, and on the other hand give to another because we think him to be righteous. Even as God lets the rain fall upon both the righteous and the wicked, so it is that we are to be perfect (walk in integrity and virtue) with our dealings with others, as our Father does.

Upon our journey through life there are many side roads. And as free-will beings, we choose which one we shall follow. It is only when we walk before the Almighty God that we become complete (perfect). And what does it mean to walk "before" God, but that wherever we turn, we are face to face with God. Holding Him forever before our eyes. Whole-heartedly (perfectly) and faithfully serving Him in reverence. If we walk in integrity (perfectly), it is the righteousness of such a path which shall guide us and not our own motivations. And if we are to be perfect, to walk upon the path lead by Him, we are to give up that which we love, that which we follow, and follow Him instead.

As long as God is before us and it is His will (path) which we choose, then we are perfect and in need of nothing to make us holy (sanctified) before Him. As that one sacrifice which was offered by Jesus Christ is the only accepted sacrifice to make us perfect. Our deeds shall never cover the cost of that ransom that was needed to unveil paradise lost. Although we do handover our will to Him, it is still us who choose which path to take. God will never force us to walk contrary to our will. He desires that we desire His desire.

To those who say that we are to make ourselves perfect, this I say to you: It is Jesus who has made us perfect (sinless) in the eyes of God and nothing more is needed to make us any more complete, as that perfection is of itself complete. But now, when it comes to "you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is", we are to understand "to be perfect" as meaning "to be upright". To be taken as meaning "as God is perfect", is to say that we are "to be gods". That is absurd. We cannot be the definition of "perfect" as when applied to God in His absolutenesses. But we can be perfect in love as God is perfect in love, as was shown to us in His Son Jesus. If I can be perfect myself, then what need was there for the eternal sacrifice of the Lamb? For, surely, under the Law (I can make myself perfect) nothing was ever made perfect.

As to who does the walking, God or you: It is you who is to walk upon the path set before you in integrity (whole-heartedly) and who keeps yourself from your iniquity. Who is the one who shall abide in Heaven? Who is the one who shall inhabit Jerusalem? Is it not the one who walks uprightly (perfect, with integrity), and do righteousness, and in his heart, speak the truth. But in all of this, it is God, the One whom you face, who girds you with strength to carry on and gives you straight paths to walk. Are we not told that if we walk uprightly (It does not say "if we are carried"), no good thing will be withheld from us? To say that it is God who walks is to say that He is in err when sin is committed. May that never be thought. By all means, understand that He is there to help, as He is the Helper. Understand that it is we who are responsible for our own account. We ask for guidance upon our path, we dare not demand. In knowing this, I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. I will walk within myself (house) with a perfect heart. In my path, I shall be perfect, as those who do are His delight. Am I not blessed when my way is undefiled, when I walk in the law (command) of the LORD? As I do walk uprightly, shall I not be saved?

God cannot dwell where there is sin. If the Spirit of God and Jesus dwells in you than you are His temple and that makes you holy. And if you are holy than you are without sin, as you have the eternal sacrifice of Jesus and sin is not inputed where there is no law. And if without sin, than you are perfect, needing nothing to make you complete and needing not again to return to deeds (laws) as a means for God's pardon.

Until we are united in our faith, in the knowledge of the Son of God, until we have become perfect (fully grown), until we can measure up in stature to the fullness of Christ, we are to endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. And not a bond of belittlement, calling those who are less matured (perfect) devils and the workers of such. Do those who do such think they are superior in knowledge and therefore holier? All we not all saints, sanctified by the blood of the Christ?
There are those you are perfect (upright), those who are merciful, and those meek. To those who are upright, He shows Himself to them as Upright. To those who are merciful, as Merciful. And to those meek, as Meek. The sign of the one who is perfect is the one who does not offend in word. It is certain that if this one offends in words, then this one has not bridled his whole body.

Love is patience and if we love one another, then God's love is perfected in us. And when we stand in the Day of Judgment, we shall have boldness because as He is, (that is, perfect in love) so are we in this world. So let patience have her perfect work inside of you so that you could be perfect and whole, wanting nothing. The understanding of the great mysteries of God belongs to those who are perfect (of full age), those who have exercised their senses to discern both good and evil. But living in a state of superiority, claiming to be a prophet, but yet prophesied nothing, instead being a teacher of unfounded commands, you go and tell others to live by these same rules. Do we not all know that the books of the Bible were divided in chapters and verses for readability? And even then, sometimes, it is not logically divided.

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Clyde wrote...To those who say that we are to make ourselves perfect, this I say to you: It is Jesus who has made us perfect (sinless) in the eyes of God and nothing more is needed to make us any more complete, as that perfection is of itself complete. But now, when it comes to "you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is", we are to understand "to be perfect" as meaning "to be upright".

I understand the first perfect spoken above is as (blameless) in the eyes of God
I understand the second perfect mentioned to be (mature and complete) not "in want" of anything.

correct?

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Clyde Fultz III....Welcome to the board! I'm sorry, I just noticed that you are brand new here!

Thanks for your post!

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Found in Him:
Clyde wrote...To those who say that we are to make ourselves perfect, this I say to you: It is Jesus who has made us perfect (sinless) in the eyes of God and nothing more is needed to make us any more complete, as that perfection is of itself complete. But now, when it comes to "you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is", we are to understand "to be perfect" as meaning "to be upright".

I understand the first perfect spoken above is as (blameless) in the eyes of God
I understand the second perfect mentioned to be (mature and complete) not "in want" of anything.

correct?

Thank you for you for welcoming me. When you said, "I understand the first perfect spoken above is as (blameless) in the eyes of God", that is what I mean. But, as pertaining to your second statement, would you be so kind as to quote that part, as I cannot know which "perfect" you are talking about.

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Clyde....But now, when it comes to "you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is", we are to understand "to be perfect" as meaning "to be upright".

This one.

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Found in Him:
Clyde....But now, when it comes to "you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is", we are to understand "to be perfect" as meaning "to be upright".

This one.

What I mean is that God is perfect (whole-hearted, sound)in love. He shows no partiality. He lets the rain fall on both the righteous and the wicked. He shines the sun upon both.

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

Thank you, blameless is more fitting than sinless.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi Clyde,
Greetings to you in the Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I also welcome you to theChristianBBS.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Thank you Clyde!

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

PERFECT....katartizo= To arrange or set in order, adjust, mend, prepare, frame, restore, make perfect, be perfectly joined together.

Feel Lucky? Pick one that suits ya.

2 Cor 13:11 Finally, brethern farewell, Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

When used to describe any creature, perfect emphasizes the achievement of whatever level of maturity or morality can be expected, given the nature of a plant, animal, or person.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Thanks for your input Clyde 3rd. It is nice to have some blueblood around. Welcome aboard!

I cannot however, tell you how many times I have seen the textbook definition of the word 'perfect' used in defense of compromised faith living. I cannot tell you how inadequate it is either. Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect." The argument by unbelievers is, if one boils it down, that the word perfect, as used in this verse and others, means 'mature'. To state it this way saves a lot of eye strain, as it keeps one from having to do a lot of unnecessary reading since so many people use the same bulky reading to express their belief.

If one asks me what I am all about, I would have to say I'm about reading the word the way it is written. However, no one does it that way. No one (for the most part). All rationalize! That means that they read it to suit their (carnal) understanding, rather than allow their (carnal) understanding to be broken, so as to realize the truth, the way HE is. (That sentence is not accidentally worded.) It is unconsciously felt by most that the word must be 'adapted' to the understanding of the reader, or learner, rather than the learner to 'the' understanding. Therefore do I put it to people, who say they follow, this way: If we read, "Be ye 'mature' as your Heavenly Father is mature," how does that sound? After all, how mature is the Heavenly Father? He certainly is not mature. HE is God. He is 'perfect'.

Notice that Jesus referred to HIS Father when relating this. It was no accident that the perfect Jesus, referred to the Perfect Father this way. In case you missed it, Jesus was perfect in knowledge and HE made a 'perfect' statement.

And here is why buddist and hindu's do not get it with regard to Christianity. They don't believe. But the problem is that Christians don't believe either. Therefore they are in the same class almost as the buddistdoo's. What a shameful thing, huh? Jesus calls us to better things.

So to be exact, perfection, as sanctification, is a 'gift'. You can only 'have' it. You cannot earn it. You cannot accomplish it. But you can avoid it.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

I say this stuff the way I do to wake up the church. For conventional discussions lead nowhere. But concerning perfection, or sanctification, or salvation, I say "Start having it," because as long as you think there is something you have to 'do' to accomplish it, you will never have it.

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
PERFECT....katartizo= To arrange or set in order, adjust, mend, prepare, frame, restore, make perfect, be perfectly joined together.

Feel Lucky? Pick one that suits ya.

2 Cor 13:11 Finally, brethern farewell, Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

When used to describe any creature, perfect emphasizes the achievement of whatever level of maturity or morality can be expected, given the nature of a plant, animal, or person.

Hello Daniel and thank for your warm greetings.

Bluefrog,
The main meaning of that word (G2675) is "to complete thoroughly", in reference with "to mend". And with that in mind, consider this, "The disciple is not above his master. Every one who is perfect (having been mended) shall be as his master." Therefore, "...be mended (restored, perfect)..." So, let us "...be perfectly joined together (restored) in the same mind..."
Perfect, in the spiritual sense, means, "entire, integrity, sound, sincerely, unblemish, upright. I am not defining the word as in a dictionary, but I am defining the word as it means in God's Word.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

How about this definition: Governed! An even better one would be, "Governed from above." And not to be skimpy, let's throw in this one: "Governed from above by the perfect one!" So to be perfect really means, "to be one with Him."

And thank God HE is merciful, or I would have been slain a million times already!

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Hello Clyde, and welcome to the board.

Funny you say that about not using a dictionary to read the word of God but that you use the word of God.

Since I was a scrubby lil brat if I wanted to know the meaning of a word, how to spell it, and stuff I could only depend on the dictionary. Also, when I read a word in the bible, I figure that whoever translated the bible from Hebrew or Greek they did the same. So, if I read in the bible the word perfect I figure that most of the time I know what is being said.

However, that is not always the case. When I ever question, like I did when it said I was to be perfect, a flag went up. I find the word in Hebrew or Greek and see what it means. Anything else, to me is just defining a word to suit myself or a guessing game. In the case of Perfect, I found some understanding that was reasonable in that I can not be perfect.

It even gets more complicated when Figures of Speach is used. Some is explained in the bible and some is a repeat of a term commonly used to make a point n' stuff.

Actually, I seldom use the Webster Dictionary because I have a Bible Dictionary which helps me to translate from English back to Hebrew or Greek. But other than that, I have nothing that I can say I am not defining this word from the dictionary but I am defining it from the Word of God.

I also use the Strongs Condordance of the Bible.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
PERFECT....katartizo= To arrange or set in order, adjust, mend, prepare, frame, restore, make perfect, be perfectly joined together.

quote:
de bluefrog

Nice! I choose the "perfectly joined together," one. I overlooked this definition when I wrote:

How about this definition: Governed! An even better one would be, "Governed from above." And not to be skimpy, let's throw in this one: "Governed from above by the perfect one!" So to be perfect really means, "to be one with Him."

Did we notice that the definition said "perfectly" joined together?

And thank God HE is merciful, or I would have been slain a million times already! And to add to this discussion, there is a reason why scripture says: "Love covers a multitude of sins." For even 'perfect' believers need this cover. Amen!

Amen!

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

In response to Michael Harrison

1) I cannot however, tell you how many times I have seen the textbook definition of the word 'perfect' used in defense of compromised faith living.

I ask of you to show me where I have given a "textbook" definition. Once that is pointed out, I
will show the truth in God's word.

2) I cannot tell you how inadequate it is either. Jesus said, "Be ye perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

What are the things which are said before this verse? Keeping in mind, that we divided up the
letters into chapters and verses.

3) The argument by unbelievers is, if one boils it down, that the word perfect, as used in this verse and others, means 'mature'. To state it this way saves a lot of eye strain, as it keeps one from having to do a lot of unnecessary reading since so many people use the same bulky reading to express their belief.

I do not know about others, but I do know that the word "perfect" means much more than just
"mature". And if one were to search all the word of God, one would find that, indeed, we
cannot be perfect in the sense that God is perfect. We are told that the one who is perfect in
love, has both the Father and the Son.

4) If one asks me what I am all about, I would have to say I'm about reading the word the way it is written.

There are many versions of the Bible. Are they all correct?

5) However, no one does it that way. No one (for the most part).

If I wrote a letter and out of that I picked out a fragment of a sentence and wrote just that in
another letter, would I be giving the whole meaning? If that sentence was, "he is dead", would
that also mean, "As to sin, he is dead?"

6) All rationalize! That means that they read it to suit their (carnal) understanding, rather than allow their (carnal) understanding to be broken, so as to realize the truth, the way HE is. (That sentence is not accidentally worded.)

Whole-heartedly, I agree with you on this.

7) It is unconsciously felt by most that the word must be 'adapted' to the understanding of the reader, or learner, rather than the learner to 'the' understanding. Therefore do I put it to people, who say they follow, this way: If we read, "Be ye 'mature' as your Heavenly Father is mature," how does that sound? After all, how mature is the Heavenly Father? He certainly is not mature. HE is God. He is 'perfect'.

Do I not say, "But now, when it comes to "you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is",
we are to understand "to be perfect" as meaning "to be upright"." Perhaps there is a
misunderstanding. The meaning of "upright" means "to walk with integrity." It is certain that
God walks in integrity. Keeping the verses before this verse in mind, let us consider this. "You
are to be perfect (walk in integrity (showing no partiality), even as your heavenly Father is.

8) Notice that Jesus referred to HIS Father when relating this. It was no accident that the perfect Jesus, referred to the Perfect Father this way. In case you missed it, Jesus was perfect in knowledge and HE made a 'perfect' statement.

Job is said to be perfect (upright). And was it not he who said, "If I justify myself, mine own
mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect (pious), it shall also prove me perverse." Are we to
say that we are perfect as God, holy as God?

9) And here is why buddist and hindu's do not get it with regard to Christianity. They don't believe. But the problem is that Christians don't believe either. Therefore they are in the same class almost as the buddistdoo's. What a shameful thing, huh? Jesus calls us to better things.

With total honesty, I have no ideal what you are conveying here.

10) So to be exact, perfection, as sanctification, is a 'gift'. You can only 'have' it. You cannot earn it. You cannot accomplish it. But you can avoid it.
I totally agree.

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
Hello Clyde, and welcome to the board.

Funny you say that about not using a dictionary to read the word of God but that you use the word of God.

I said what I said about the dictionary because of the following quote
When used to describe any creature, perfect emphasizes the achievement of whatever level of maturity or morality can be expected, given the nature of a plant, animal, or person. [/QUOTE]

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Hey Clyde...Do you think that the description is in error ? If so, I don't know why. Smarten me up.

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
Hey Clyde...Do you think that the description is in error ? If so, I don't know why. Smarten me up.

No, my friend, I do not think your description is in error. I simply wish to convey what "perfect" means morally. To me, only your definition at the end, is describing "perfect" in a more pysical manner, as a scientist would. I meant no harm.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Clyde...it was probably my fault. What I was trying to do was furnish the definition for the word in Hebrew. Perfect is used to speak of the perfect man, plant, animal. Knowing this, your understanding of the word perfect can help with the meaning of all the subjects. Me thinks.

We know there is no perfect man, plant or animal so to say it is perfect means it is the best it can be considering circumstances n' stuff. The perfect ball team is the one who won more games. Perfect cow at the fair. The perfect man, considering he did his level best and who can ask more?

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

It is written in Genesis 25:27 that Jacob was a plain man:

27 ...and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.

The English word plain does not do justice to the Hebrew word tam which it translates; tam is the opposite of deceit and trickery and instead, tam means complete, pious, gentle, dear, perfect, plain, undefiled, and upright.

Note for example the following scriptures from the Old Testament in which tam was used:

Job 1:1
There was a man...whose name was Job, and that man was perfect {Hebrew, tam} and upright, one who feared God and one who avoided evil.

Psalm 37:37
Mark the perfect {Hebrew, tam} man, and behold the upright; for the end of that man is peace.

Proverbs 29:10
The bloodthirsty hate the upright {Hebrew, tam}.

Cant.5:2
...Open to me, my love, my dove, my undefiled {Hebrew, tam}...

And in the Christian era, Saul of Tarsus was a Hebrew of Hebrews from southeast Turkey and he was from the tribe of Benjamin, as is recorded in Philippians 3:5:

5 [Saul writes he was], "Circumcised on the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, as regarding the law a Pharisee."

And Saul, whose Roman name was Paul, wrote a number of the books in the Christian era that became part of the Greek New Testament, and in one of those books Paul quotes Malachi 1:2 and says that Jacob was loved and that Esau was hated, as is written in Romans 9:13:

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This word hated is the Greek word miseo, from which comes our English word miserable, as in, that Esau was a miserable sucker, wasn't he? By contrast, in Genesis 25:27 Jacob was a tam man:

27 ...and Jacob was a plain (Hebrew, tam) man, dwelling in tents.

So this Hebrew word tam means the opposite of deceit and trickery and means instead complete, pious, gentle, dear, perfect, plain, undefiled, and upright.

love, Eden

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Therefore, when we read some of the scriptures we will see a word thinking we know what it means but the word it was translated from doesn't mean quite the same as we think.

I have trouble enough with the English language.

When I was growing up I don't remember anyone saying anything about Hebrew but I often heard the comment "That's Greek to me".

Keeps us on our toes doesn't it? Yes, I know, What does that mean? LOL

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
6) All rationalize! That means that they read it to suit their (carnal) understanding, rather than allow their (carnal) understanding to be broken, so as to realize the truth, the way HE is. (That sentence is not accidentally worded.)

Whole-heartedly, I agree with you on this.

How excellent to see we agree on something clyde.

quote:
Do I not say, "But now, when it comes to "you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is",
we are to understand "to be perfect" as meaning "to be upright"." Perhaps there is a
misunderstanding. The meaning of "upright" means "to walk with integrity." It is certain that
God walks in integrity. Keeping the verses before this verse in mind, let us consider this. "You
are to be perfect (walk in integrity (showing no partiality), even as your heavenly Father is.

Nay clyde! We are to be perfect in faith.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

quote:
Job is said to be perfect (upright). And was it not he who said, "If I justify myself, mine own
mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect (pious), it shall also prove me perverse." Are we to
say that we are perfect as God, holy as God?

This is a nice verse. Thanks for pointing it out. But we do not say we are perfect by anything whatsoever we ‘do’, as though ‘we’ accomplish it. Like others, you do not read. For lest ye chew the cud, you miss the vitamins.

quote:
10) So to be exact, perfection, as sanctification, is a 'gift'. You can only 'have' it. You cannot earn it. You cannot accomplish it. But you can avoid it.
I totally agree.

Then you totally agree, and the above verbiage altogether, was totally unnecessary. So you can say you are perfect. For what God ‘says’ - HE performs. But it is not as though you do anything to accomplish it, except for the simple act of faith, the same you exercised to receive salvation.

Thanks! That was rewarding.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
We know there is no perfect man, plant or animal so to say it is perfect means it is the best it can be considering circumstances n' stuff. The perfect ball team is the one who won more games. Perfect cow at the fair. The perfect man, considering he did his level best and who can ask more?
Bf

See there. Here again (and again, and again) we have someone who is unable to read. For this one is still trying to be perfect. But really, what he is doing (typically, referring to the average believer) is excusing his transgression, being comfortable with ‘not‘ changing.

Let’s take your own (supplied) definition bf: PERFECT....katartizo= To arrange or set in order, adjust, mend, prepare, frame, restore, make perfect, be perfectly joined together.

The outstanding part of this verse is “be perfectly joined together.” If you are ‘perfectly joined together’ according to your definition, with whom you are supposed to be ‘perfectly’ joined together, where then is your imperfection? Is it not covered? However, wherever you realize that you are ‘sticking out’ not perfectly joined together, you are witnessing transgression; sin! What is your excuse? Do you tell the Lord, “Well, I cannot be perfect? What do you think HIS answer will be, HE who said, “Be ye perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

It's so strange! Clyde III, you cannot 'be' blameless, anymore than you can 'be' sinless. it is a rationalization.

quote:
Thank you, blameless is more fitting than sinless.
Clyde

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

I apologize Clyde for not all of us share Michael's view. I appreciated your post and gleaned much from it. You seem educated and humble in The Lord and an asset here on the board.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

What, my dear beam in the eye, did you just say about judging in another post?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

[Bible]

If pointing the way is regarded as 'judging', then Paul must needs be in serious jeopardy.
[Bible]

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

What makes you more like Paul than anyone else here?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

How many people do you think apologized for Paul? If you say none, you are in error.

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

I asked you a question Michael. Do you think that you are more like Paul than all of us here?

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Michael..are you perfect ?

Are you capable of Love?

Do you sin?

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Found in Him:
I apologize Clyde for not all of us share Michael's view. I appreciated your post and gleaned much from it. You seem educated and humble in The Lord and an asset here on the board.

No apologize is needed from you or him. But, thank you nonetheless. And I do say this to you and everyone else who wishes for the truth to flourish: Know what words mean when they are spoken and do not trust anyone with your salvation. But, go and learn the truth yourself, as God has given to us His written word. And when you see an error, do not be afraid to shine the truth upon it.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

But!!!!

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Clyde writes....And when you see an error, do not be afraid to shine the truth upon it.

Yes Sir!

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Ahhh, Gotta love The Word of God!

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 7639) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:
Do I not say, "But now, when it comes to "you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is",
we are to understand "to be perfect" as meaning "to be upright"." Perhaps there is a
misunderstanding. The meaning of "upright" means "to walk with integrity." It is certain that
God walks in integrity. Keeping the verses before this verse in mind, let us consider this. "You
are to be perfect (walk in integrity (showing no partiality), even as your heavenly Father is.

quote:
Nay clyde! We are to be perfect in faith.

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
In my search of, "perfect in faith" (in any order), I came up with three (3) passages. And none of them dealt with us becoming "perfect in faith". But if it is being implied that we are to walk with integrity in our faith, then absolutely, we are to do such. But I figure this is not what is meant. Taking Galatians 3 as a whole and not verse by verse, we understand Paul as saying that we are made perfect when we receive the Spirit. Do we become perfect by works or by the sealing of the Spirit? How do we receive the Spirit but by faith. And what is faith but believing in the salvational plan of God through Jesus the Christ. For by one offering He perfected forevermore those who are sanctified. Indeed it was Abraham's faith which was accounted as righteousness, and not the deed itself. How "perfect in faith" was abstracted from Galatians 3:6, I do not know.

quote:
Job is said to be perfect (upright). And was it not he who said, "If I justify myself, mine own
mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect (pious), it shall also prove me perverse." Are we to
say that we are perfect as God, holy as God?

quote:
This is a nice verse. Thanks for pointing it out. But we do not say we are perfect by anything whatsoever we ‘do’, as though ‘we’ accomplish it. Like others, you do not read. For lest ye chew the cud, you miss the vitamins.
Did I miss where it was said by you that perfection comes by sanctification through the one eternal offering of Jesus?

quote:
10) So to be exact, perfection, as sanctification, is a 'gift'. You can only 'have' it. You cannot earn it. You cannot accomplish it. But you can avoid it.
I totally agree.
Then you totally agree, and the above verbiage altogether, was totally unnecessary. So you can say you are perfect. For what God ‘says’ - HE performs. But it is not as though you do anything to accomplish it, except for the simple act of faith, the same you exercised to receive salvation.

Thanks! That was rewarding.

If you believe that perfection is a gift, which is true, as it comes with the package that we call "Christ", then, why do you insist, "Be you perfect, even as your Father in the heavens is", as though we are to try to be?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

And I asked you a question found-n-mim, who are you to apologize for me? How is it that you 'suppose' yourself better than me?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
If you believe that perfection is a gift, which is true, as it comes with the package that we call "Christ", then, why do you insist, "Be you perfect, even as your Father in the heavens is", as though we are to try to be?

You know what clyde3d, perfection is part of the package. We get the package. Unfortunately, the package does not 'get' us. And 'Piety' does not make one "righteous."

Posted by Found in Him (Member # 7596) on :

Michael wrote...And I asked you a question found-n-mim, who are you to apologize for me? How is it that you 'suppose' yourself better than me?

I apologized that a new member should feel attacked on his first day here-- I felt that he did not get the welcome that he deserved from you.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Sorry clyde fulton III. I apologize! You are exceedingly welcome here and I didn't mean to sound rude. Please take into account that expressing one's self properly (well) through writing leaves something to be desired, unless one puts overwhelming effort into it, and then he can still not communicate the nuances he intends.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Found in Him...Clyde has been here several days I think. He seemed to be familiar with what has been said here for a while. He also received a welcome from some of us.

As a matter of fact, Michael welcomed him as well saying he was thankful that finally another blue blood joined him here.

Your effort was a nice one regardless of the usual snotty remarks from our resident blueblood.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

If ye abide not in love, then are ye dead. If ye are dead, you can rave all you want.

[Bible]

When someone is from the Bluegrass of Kentucky, and has three III's following his name, it is such a rare occurrence, that one tends to think of 'blueblood'. Actually, I found it inspiring. And it was inspiring to be 'challenged' by a blueblood. [happyhappy]

(Things are not always as serious that one cannot let his imagination run a little wild.)

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

You guys are such a hoot! Only some are a coot.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Very Impressive Michael.

That was quick. But you aren't a blueblood too are you ? You said you were. And you don't have a III at the end of your name.

I noticed a couple of days ago you asked us to worship you. Now you are writing your own scriptures.

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 8759) on :

WildB,

I think it is funny that I have not posted here for years and I came here today 5-5-12 to copy and paste one of my posts to another chat blog, and I see this written, "Now but WHAT Clyde !" the very same day.

So now I am curious, what is your implication in posting this? LOL, did I leave you dangling [Smile]

But seriously, let me know, God does work in funny ways. I await your reply soon. God bless.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Fultz III:
WildB,

I think it is funny that I have not posted here for years and I came here today 5-5-12 to copy and paste one of my posts to another chat blog, and I see this written, "Now but WHAT Clyde !" the very same day.

So now I am curious, what is your implication in posting this? LOL, did I leave you dangling But seriously, let me know, God does work in funny ways. I await your reply soon. God bless.

Clyde Fultz III
unregistered
March 01, 2009

Why change?
[cool_shades]

Posted by Clyde Fultz III (Member # 8759) on :

The first account I asked to be deleted. So, I assume, that I had to start a new account.