Christian Message Boards: The righteousness which is IMPUTED TO US, is NOT an EARNED righteousness

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

The righteousness which we receive from God as Christians is IMPUTED TO US, and this righteousness CANNOT BE EARNED BY US in any way.

IN the gospel of grace, God wants NOTHING TO DO with our own righteousness:

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; IF he trusts in his own righteousness, and commits iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he has committed, he shall die for it.

Philippians 3:9
But to be found in Him, not having My own righteousness which is of the law, but that {righteousness} which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Romans 10:3
For they, being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I am afraid that many of us Christians still go about tinkering and trying to repair our own righteousness, to make it look a little better, and thereby hoping that God will accept us more.

But that is not the gospel of God and Jesus.

When Abram believed God and was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac, believing that God could and would raise Isaac from the dead again, God COUNTED Abram's faith AS righteousness, and so to speak, "gave Abraham FREE righteousness JUST FOR BELIEVING what God had said":

Romans 4:3
For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and that was counted unto him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was IMPUTED TO HIM for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The righteousness that we are looking for is the righteousness which IS IMPUTED TO US JUST FOR BELIEVING IN HIM, the righteousness which IS OF FAITH in what God said in the Bible; God cannot lie, if God said it, it is true.

God is SO NICE to us that He allows MERELY BY BELIEVING that what God said in the Bible is TRUE, for that mere BELIEF God will IMPUTE HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS TO US, FOR FREE.

We cannot earn it, we don't even have it in ourselves. It is NOT ANYTHING having to do with our OWN righteousness. It is ANOTHER righteousness altogether.

It is NOT OUR righteousness, whether "cleaned up somewhat with a tuxedo and refined speech" or "not so cleaned up with grimy clothes and rough speech", THAT are still all FILTHY righteousnesses to God.

No, the ONLY righteousness which we are looking for is the righteousness that is IMPUTED TO US THROUGH FAITH in what Jesus has done for us.

If we BELIEVE what God said about Jesus, then FOR THAT BELIEF ONLY, God will on His part IMPUTE RIGHTEOUSNESS TO US JUST FOR BELIEVING that what God said about Jesus, is true.

IT IS A FAITH THING ONLY. God does NOT CARE how we have MANANGED TO DRESS UP our own righteousness, it is still and will always remain to Him, "as filthy rags":

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and ALL our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was IMPUTED TO HIM for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Let us also look for that righteousness only which is IMPUTED TO US FOR FREE BY GOD, just for believing what God said in the Bible, is true.

Hebrews 6:15
And so, after He had patiently endured, He obtained the promise.

Romans 4:7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

love, Eden

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Good Morning Eden,
I agree with you that a man cannot take the credit for the washing away of his own sins............ But, there still remains the call to be a disciple of Jesus and that requires a response of faith on our part.............

Luke 14:33 "So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple

Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.

On one more note.......I see nothing about repentance in your post. It seems like we are circling back to where we started a long time ago. Please let me know whether you believe a man can be saved without repentance and surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus and then we can go from there.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

oneinchrist wrote

quote:
Eden, I agree with you that a man cannot take the credit for the washing away of his own sins .... But, there still remains the call to be a disciple of Jesus and that requires a response of faith on our part ...

I think the way it works is that salvation is imputed or given for free to us merely by BELIEVING what the God of the Bible said about Jesus dying for us and about Jesus being the Son of God in a special way. Just for BELIEVING that, God gives, or WILL GIVE, us His rigtheousness.

Then secondly, God says, Okay, son, now you are IN the Family of God and I know that you came from the Devil's family, but here in This Family we BEHAVE differently than you did while you were a member of the Devil's family.

AND HERE IS THE MANUAL of how to behave IN the Family of God, the Bible or Word of God. And this is SANCTIFICATION, learning how to behave, as much as lies in us, within the Family of God, and also, as a member of the Family of God, how to behave toward the Devil's families.

So there are two things: The only way we can receive SALVATION is by BELIEVING what God said is true about Jesus and about us being sinners, etc., and by BELIEVING (or "agreeing") with God, God then IMPUTES RIGHTEOUSNESS TO US in exchange for having believed. THIS cannot be earned by BEHAVIOR, only by BELIEVING in what God said.

But BEHAVIOR comes in AFTER we are saved. Once we are saved, we are given the Holy Spirit AND the written Word of God to "help us learn how to behave within the Family of God" and "as members of the Family of God towards the outside world".

But all this is ALL sanctification, and NONE of it belongs to salvation.

Salvation is NOT acquired by BEHAVIOR, i.e., is NOt acquired by being EXTRA GOOD TODAY, as if I will have a better chance with God then.

No, BEHAVIOR belongs only to the process of sanctification or "how to behave now that I am in the Family of God", and BELIEVING is how to acquire salvation:

Romans 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

4 Now, to him who works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted to him for righteousness.

We acquire salvation through believing God, and we acquire sanctification IF we learn how to behave in the Family of God with the help of the Holy Spirit and with the help of what is written in the Word of God.

Romans 4
6 Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered.

8 Yes, blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

But instead we Christians, instead of BELIEVING for salvation, often try to IMPROVE our behavior to ACQUIRE SALVATION ...as in, "if I don't do so and so, I cannot possibly receive salvation."

And as in, "If I pray more and read the Bible more and if am nicer to people and I give more, THEN God will like me enough to give me salvation, I'm sure of it".

But God says that "Jesus died in my place" and that if I will accept and BELIEVE that, then God will FREELY IMPUTE RIGHTEOUSNESS to me just for BELIEVING that Jesus died for me, as God said.

But after that we are given the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to "become a little nicer now that we ARE in the Family of God".

Romans 5
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Justified by faith (salvation), not by works (sanctification).

love, Eden

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

quote:
The righteousness which we receive from God as Christians is IMPUTED TO US, and this righteousness CANNOT BE EARNED BY US in any way.

This is a true statement but just as true is that the righteousness that is imputed will reproduce after the same kind. Thus we now understand faith without works (corresponding action) is dead.

imputed righteousness is a seed, if properly cared for and nourished it will grow and flourish, if not it will wither and die....this is part of the understanding of the Parable of the Sower"..........

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Good morning Eden,
Do you believe that a person can believe those wonderful things about Jesus/God and not come to repentance and surrender to the will of God under the Lordship of Jesus? Yes or no

I am sorry but believing in Jesus is not just believing all the things about Him. It is also committing ones life to Him for service according to the will of God. If you do not agree, that is where you and I stand in contrast. Sanctification is not automatic without accepting Jesus' authority over your life. What do you think?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength, this is the first commandment.

John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Psalms 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous; But the Lord delivereth him out of them all.

ONEINCHRIST. You asked Eden: Do you believe that a person can believe in all those wonderful things about Jesus/God and not come to repentance and surrender to the will of God under the Lordship of Jesus yes or no ?

My answer, if you want it is Yes.
Even Satan himself believes all those things but he certainly isn't going to change. People can believe in a lot of things but not act on them.
Having faith in God means to turn it ALL over to Him. me thinks.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

oneinchrist wrote

quote:
Sanctification is not automatic without accepting Jesus' authority over your life. What do you think?

That's correct. SANCTIFICATION is NOT automatic; it is a co-operative effort by the Christian and the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.

But salvation IS automatic by MERELY BELIEVING. When there is a sincere belief in a person's heart that Jesus died on our behalf, then in exchange for that belief, God IMPUTES righteousness to us, meaning God will give us FREE SALVATION, JUST FOR WHAT JESUS DID, and NOTHING else is needed to receive that.

As for the Devil's also believing that Jesus died FOR PEOPLE, the Devil knows that salvation is ONLY FOR PEOPLE, so it does not matter how much the Devil believes that Jesus died for us; the Devil also knows that the salvation offer is NOT FOR HIM.

But God IS EXTENDING salvation to all people in exchange for MERELY BELIEVING that Jesus died for us. Anyone who sincerely believes that (and God knows the hearts), WILL be given this FREE RIGHTEOUSNESS when it comes time to hand out the glorified bodies.

Once a person is SAVED, then that person receives ACCESS to the Holy Spirit and between the saved Christian, the Holy Spirit, and the written Word of God, a person may, or may not, depending on the effort put into it by the Christian, end up "more santified", meaning, he at least TRIES to behave more in line with the 10 commandments.

I think that failure to separate what we have to do to receive salvation and what we have to do for sanctification, causes all this confusion. All the commandments in the Bible to "do this and do that" are for sanctification, NOT for salvation. Salvation is acquired by merely believing that Jesus died for us. But sanctification, and rewards for making the effort, are all part of sanctification ONLY.

love, Eden

Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on :

John 17:17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.) Simply put, without heeding the word of God, his truth, how can on ever achieve or gain santification or even start the process whether the person believes that God is or that the Lord Jesus is, this is were the importance of the sower parable comes in. Fruitfulness is a result of sanctification Hebrews 12:14).. holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord)) Sanctification will result in more holy living and that type of lifestyle that God wants of us.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
But God IS EXTENDING salvation to all people in exchange for MERELY BELIEVING that Jesus died for us. Anyone who sincerely believes that (and God knows the hearts), WILL be given this FREE RIGHTEOUSNESS when it comes time to hand out the glorified bodies.

"O" really? Obama, by his own confession believes that Jesus 'died' for His sins. But the impression I get is that Obama thinks Jesus is really stupid to do a thing like that. After all, something more is needed, and Obama is not providing it. Moreover 'that' is what is needed in order to be saved, and that which we consider is surrender. For without surrender, one mocks God. Therefore one benefits not by 'believing' only. He must be invested in God by submission to HIS will.

quote:
Once a person is SAVED, then that person receives ACCESS to the Holy Spirit and between the saved Christian, the Holy Spirit, and the written Word of God, a person may, or may not, depending on the effort put into it by the Christian, end up "more santified", meaning, he at least TRIES to behave more in line with the 10 commandments.

One is sanctified, or one is not sanctified. And how much effort does one put into being saved? You said he must believe! I said he must surrender. But how much effort does that take? And how much credit do we get for our effort of surrendering? And how much more effort is needed to be sanctified? For if it depended upon one's effort, no amount would be enough. And that is the gospel of Christ. [/quote]

quote:
I think that failure to separate what we have to do to receive salvation and what we have to do for sanctification, causes all this confusion. All the commandments in the Bible to "do this and do that" are for sanctification, NOT for salvation. Salvation is acquired by merely believing that Jesus died for us. But sanctification, and rewards for making the effort, are all part of sanctification ONLY.

So, to be sanctified, one has to paddle his own canoe, but to be saved one does not? Let us do a retake. Does God sanctify, or do we? Who paddles?

Some think that abstaining from something equals his 'effort' to be sanctified. That is works and that is confusing. And because it is confusing, some people just do not get it. Sanctification is not abstenence. It is freedom from the need to perform that which is unseemly. It does not come from one's own determination else one could take 'credit' for that which only God can perform.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Subject: The righteousness which is IMPUTED TO US, is NOT an EARNED righteousness.

Well, now we are off talking about sanctification. OK. What does sanctification mean? Webster says: To set apart to a sacred purpose or to religious use; consecrate; to free from sin; purify; to give moral or social sanction to. Revel dictionary says: To make holy, to set apart.

In the OT people were to sanctify themselves before taking part in worship or encounters with God. Lev. 11:44 For I am the Lord your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves (your souls), and ye shall be holy; neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Lev. 8:10 And Moses took the anointing oil and anointed the tabernacle and all that was therein, and sanctified them.

But, in the NT the sanctification was different.
It was Jesus that brought on the change.
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer (worse) punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and wherewith (with) He was sanctified, an unholy (unclean)thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Now, through Jesus, ordinary human beings are set apart to serve God in their daily lives. Christ alive in his people in every situation, enables believers to glorify God by living their lives in a Christ like way. It is a powerful word of hope, assuring believers that a truly good life has now become possible. We will experience sanctification thru the sanctifying work of the Spirit. This helps us to become the kind of person God wants us to be.

One tradition holds that sanctification involves complete freedom from sin in this life through a perfect love for God. Another tradition is that it is more of a struggle between sin, so deeply rooted in human nature and the new nature given by God. With the power of the Holy Spirit the believer can choose the good, sort of a growing process. In either case, the believers believe in prospects of personal transformation now and ultimate transformation at the resurrection.

I sure hope that this explains what sanctification means to us. I try to keep it simple so we don't have a problem seeing the forest for the trees. To me, simple works gooder. Rivit

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison wrote to Eden

quote:
So, to be sanctified, one has to paddle his own canoe, but to be saved one does not? Let us do a retake. Does God sanctify, or do we? Who paddles?

There are many carnal Chrristians out there who are saved thru faith, but when it comes to sanctification, there are STILL paddling their own canoe, meaning, they still rule their own lives from the soul, without bothering to get input from the Spirit of God. Those carnal Christians are still paddling their own canoe and they will barely be sanctified.

But then there are Christians who are saved by faith, and who then continue into sanctification by listening to the Holy Spirit and by reading/hearing the written Word of God, and these Christians learn to "cease from their own works", meaning, they stop operating their body from the soul level.

Instead they now allow the Holy Spirit to guide ALL their STEPS, and the Christian co-operates with the Spirit by DOING what the Spirit of God said to do next.

These kinds of Christians are the ones in whom Jesus thru the Spirit does the paddling of the canoe. And these Christians will experience more and more sanctification.

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

becauseHElives wrote to Eden

quote:
imputed righteousness is a seed, if properly cared for and nourished it will grow and flourish, if not it will wither and die....this is part of the understanding of the Parable of the Sower" ...

When is this IMPUTED righteousness RECEIVED? becauseHElives seems to think that this imputed righteousness is being given to us in bits and pieces even now.

But when Abraham received HIS imputed righteousness, was Abraham given his imputed righteousness RIGHT THERE AND THEN? I don't think so.

The righteousness which is imputed to us more likely refers to the free gift of eternal life and our glorified bodies that we will receive later.

But, it is true that once one is saved, one DOES get access to the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit does come and dwell in us, so perhaps that is the imputed righteousness spoken of.

So when do we GET this imputed righteousness? Now or later or both?

love, Eden

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

EDEN..I have a couple of questions...

Does it say in the scriptures that God Extends Salvation, and hands out Righteousness when the new bodies are handed out for those carnal Christians? If it does, and I assume that you say it does, I wanna know so I can check it out.

Don't remember hearing or reading that before?

By the way, has Righteousness been discussed here?

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi again Eden,
I had to read your post a few times to "digest" it better. I do not want to argue over salvation vs. sanctification doctrines. I try to read the bible at face value and I try not to compartmentalize it so much.
If I read a passage that says......."Forgive, and you will be forgiven" I believe that is exactly what it means no matter what doctrine I hold to pertaining to salvation.
If I read another passage that says "He that endures to the end shall be saved" I think to myself.........My faith is going to be tested so I had better have an honest and true heart towards God, and I also think that I will need to learn that I may need to increase in my prayer life and dependency on God through future trials.
If the bible says that I need to repent in order to be forgiven I think to myself that I have to be willing to face the truth that I have sin and will struggle with it till I die, but at the same time I must declare sin to be my enemy. I must forsake it, renounce it, grow to hate it, and turn from it. I can never again allow it to be my friend.
If the bible says that I must believe in Jesus that means to me.......I must believe that He is Son of God, Savior, and Lord. I must receive Him as savior for my sin and I must submit my life under His authority as Lord of my life.
If the bible says that we can fall away, then I need to pay special attention to all scriptural warnings..........Eden I could go on and on.....but I think you get my drift.....at least I hope. Your friend in the Lord.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

bluefrog, if i may,

I personally do not believe in "carnal christians" and here is why.

The definition of Carnal is sensual, worldly, nonspiritual. The Apostle Paul contrast "spiritual people", that is, those who are under the control of the Holy Spirit, with those who are "carnal" those under the control of the flesh.

Paul states in Romans 8 that "there is therefore NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit".

So if there is NO condemnation to those who are IN Christ, walking according to His Spirit, then there must be Condemnation to those who Are NOT in Christ and walking according to their own flesh. Carnal.

Then he goes on to say -

"For those who live according to the flesh (Carnal) set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit(Not Carnal) the things of the Spirit."

"For to be carnally minded is Death, but to be Spiritually minded is Life and peace."

"Because the carnal mind is Enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor Indeed Can be. So this verse is saying to me that there is NO such thing as a "carnal Christian" because that would mean you are against God. Its an oxymoron.

But notice that Paul, speaking to the Church of Corinth says "But you (Corinth Christians, Not Carnal Christians) are NOT in the flesh (Carnal) but in the Spirit, IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is NOT His." In other words, that person is not a Christian, a follower of Christ.

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your Mortal bodies thru His Spirit who dwells in you."

This does not say the "Carnal Christians" will have life given to their mortal bodies by the Spirit of God, it says "but IF the Spirit of Him dwells in you", this one will be given life.

Remember the scripture said "to be carnally minded is Death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

becauseHeLives is right in that sanctification is a seed growing process. It depends on which seed you have and what you feed it.

If you feed the carnal seed you seperate yourself from God which surely brings death. It will wither and die.

If you feed the Spiritual seed it flourishes and lives. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, These are the sons of God."

In verse 8 of Romans 8 "Those who are in the flesh" characterizes peoples very nature and is a stronger description than the activity of walking according to the flesh. The phrase "therefore" refers to Unbelievers (Not Carnal Christians") who cannot please God.

This situation is not true of Believers, as the following verse shows-

verse 9 "But you who are not in the flesh but in the spirit....

We all start out as "babes in Christ" if we are believers, but we can either stay there or move on into maturity. It all depends on what we feed ourselves.

But to say one is a "Carnal Christian" is to say that no longer are they babes in Christ drinking the milk of the word but that the milk has become "Clabbered", not fit to drink, will not sustain life. Almost like returning to vomit.

I know that some denominations teach this "Carnal Christian" worldly, sensual people, but scripture says to be friends with the world is to be enemies with God. One cannot have 2 masters.

The letter Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church reveals some of the typical Greek cultural problems of his day, including the gross sexual immorality of the city of Corinth.

The Greeks were known for their idolatry, divisive philosophies, spirit of litigation, and rejection of a bodily resurrection.

The city of Corinth was was infamous for its Sensuality and sacred prostitution. The cits chief diety was Aphrodite(Venus), the goddess of licentious love and a thousand professional prostitutes served in the temple dedicated to her worship.

This same spirit of the city showed up in the Church and explains the kind of problems the people in that church faced.

It also reveals some of the problems the former pagans had in not transferring previous religious experiences to the ministry experience of the Holy Spirit. They may have associated some of the frenzied antics of paganisim with the exercise of spiritual gifts.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
bluefrog, if i may,

I personally do not believe in "carnal christians" .

Not Biblical.

Please reread the Bible prayerfully.

1Cor.3

[1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

[3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
[4] For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

[5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
[6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
[7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
[8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
[9] For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[16] Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Wild B,
Please do not allow yourself to view Pauls teachings on carnality as a basis for justifying carnality. Paul strictly warns against carnal-mindedness and we should not take it lightly. We are taught to view sin as our enemy for our own protection.
If I may, I would like to show what I believe to be an essential distiction......... While it is true that Christians can be carnal-minded on and off at varying times with varying intensities(I would not accuse Paul of being wrong in that assertion)...... the real danger comes in is if we allow it to permeate so much into our thoughts and emotions that we start allowing our lives to be fashioned by worldly motives. That is when I believe we lean more towards the possibility of falling away and defecting from our Lord.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Wild B,
Please do not allow yourself to view Pauls teachings on carnality as a basis for justifying carnality.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Its amazing how some steer while under instruction.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

So what are you trying to say, Wild B? Please explain.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

OneinChrist, I agree with you.

In Romans 8:13 Paul says-
"If by the Spirit you keep putting to death the PRACTICES of the body, you will live."

The KJV states it as "mortify the deeds of the body..."

This is not a mandate for "mortification of the flesh," in the sense of asceticism or masochism, which Paul elsewhere says have no spiritual value (7:5, Co 2:16-23). Rather, he is only restating what he has been urging since verse 5.

The phrase "practices of the body", refers to the bodys bad habits which the sinful Old Nature has produced.

Previously Paul wrote similarly of the bodys "various parts" which a believer should NOT "offer....to sin as an instrument for wickedness"

Unless you, the believer, continually and actively, by the power of the Holy Spirit, "put to death" your bodys bad habits to which it has become accustomed and conditioned by your old nature, these bad habits will certainly find expression, so that you will certainly die,
spiritually and eternally as well as physically.

By actively and continually setting the mind on the Spirit (v6), you will live as explained in vv 10-11.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

The title to this topic says it all, but it it in the understanding thereof. For it says: "The righteousness of God is imputed, not earned."

So the discussion invariably turns to what one 'does' or 'does not' do. After all, since it is not earned, people cannot comprehend not doing anything. And then an argument ensues. For the devil makes the everyday servant to feel guilty, as though he is not 'doing' enough. And the key here is that the devil makes the one to feel guilty. Then he has been successful at discrediting the word of God; and the result is that the servant carries on "in works of the flesh," with well meaning zeal, to so-called, serve God.

This is exactly what yahswey says does not exist in a Christian. For that alone is carnal, not to mention anger, strife, bitterness, and all the things that come from 'not' trusting God, in the perfection of His will.

quote:
So if there is NO condemnation to those who are IN Christ, walking according to His Spirit, then there must be Condemnation to those who Are NOT in Christ and walking according to their own flesh. Carnal.

quote:
Yahswey

The trouble with this comment is one of presumption. Does one presume he is 'walking' according to the Spirit? It is most common. While this verse is properly viewed as written from a perspective of being Christian as reflected off of being non-Christian, it fails otherwise due to this fact: Paul was writing 'to' Christians, about Christians, always. And the condemnation 'is' to Christians who 'are' walking according to the flesh, instead of the Spirit. And that is the point of his sermons. That is the very point of every sermon of Paul:

Because believers 'presumed', and they erred. And that is one of the imaginations that Paul was predisposed towards 'casting down'. It was their presumption. It was their presumption which allowed them to 'abide' in the flesh, and work the works of the flesh, while serving Christ, therefore polluting the Spirit. What this means is that they weren't 'sanctified' therefore. They were not because the works of the flesh were manifest, which should not be if one is 'sanctified' as he or she claims.

Want evidence that they were Christians who were in the flesh?

1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

So the key then is in righteousness being imputed! The question is, is it? Scripture says it is, therefore that would be the end of the discussion, however, there is more being implied here. So the question now is, if one would not be presumptuous, is: is he who says he believes, receiving what is imputed? For if he is, then he is sanctified, and walking in the spirit.

But let's look back. Paul, we just read, told the Corinthians that as they behaved as they did, they were not receiving what was imputed. In other words, they were not participating with God. They were not 'receiving' the gift. That necessarily made them carnal. It made them babes. For babes in Christ are carnal, and here is the only 'growing process' one will see, is when one grows from being carnal, to spiritual.

Now just because the Spirit indwells one does not make him properly spiritual. For one has to 'abide' in the Spirit. It is a choice!

quote:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And this verse says it all in one sentence, "who 'walk' not after the flesh!" But notice that it says before that, "There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ, whowalk not after the flesh." In other words, to those who are in Christ, there is no condemnation, if..... There is a condition. And it is to those who are 'in Christ'. Therefore we see that he who is 'in' Christ, can walk according to the flesh, or the spirit.

And so oneinchrist said:

quote:
If the bible says that I need to repent in order to be forgiven I think to myself that I have to be willing to face the truth that I have sin and will struggle with it till I die, but at the same time I must declare sin to be my enemy. I must forsake it, renounce it, grow to hate it, and turn from it. OneinChrist

quote:
oneinchrist

That is sanctification! Yet, is it? For he does not accomplish it who purposes, yet the intent is the beginning of it. But the accomplishing of it is of the Lord. Therefore, if it is 'imputed', and we receive it, then we can therefore, "walk in it." Then we are 'walking inthe Spirit', and not in the flesh.

code:
  

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

That is a cool pic wildb!

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
OneinChrist, I agree with you.

Unless you, the believer, continually and actively, by the power of the Holy Spirit, "put to death" your bodys bad habits to which it has become accustomed and conditioned by your old nature, these bad habits will certainly find expression, so that you will certainly die,
spiritually and eternally as well as physically.

Not Biblical.

For the Bible reads~

Eph.4

[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
That is a cool pic wildb!

ThanX Michael. Modern day wheels use Hydraulics instead of gearing like you see in the picture. With the same results the steering of the ruder.

I took the helm under instruction while in the Navy.

When 300 miles out in the middle of the sea it would seam that it wouldn't matter what how close you kept coarse settings.

Yet one degree off over time will make the vessel ship wreck in the morning.

1Tim.1

[19] Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

That works with planes also. But I used to be a machinist, and gearing always looks cool. One would be amazed at the technicality of designing one of those. And if one is off only two seconds only, in the design, then it will not mesh with another gear, and is useless.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Thank God we know the GEAR MASTER that can fix that which has been broken.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

EDEN...YAHSWAY wrote me a message on 1/24 at 7:56 that I believe was intended for your message on 1/23 at 10:51 pm.

You had spoken of Carnal Christians and Christians on hold and righteousness not given until loosed into heaven or given the new body.

I had asked you to verify these claims so that may be how it got mixed up....? [type]

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

God imputed righteousness to Abraham while Abraham was still living, but God cannot have given Abraham the Holy Spirit because Jesus had not yet died for our sins.

When then is this righteousness imputed or "added to our account"? Abraham looked forward to Christ, and we Christians look backward to Christ.

And since Christ has now died for us, we Christians who look back to Christ have already received the Holy Spirit to indwell us and to help us.

But for now, the Holy Spirit is only "a treasure in an earthen vessel" and we are yet in this sin body wherein the "flesh lusts against the Spirit and vice-versa".

So probably the imputed righteousness is both that Holy Spirit which we now have dwelling in us and have access to, but to a larger extent the imputed righteousness has to refer to the glorified body and eternal life that Jesus had in its fullness, and that we have NOT received yet, but it IS already "added to our account", if so be that we continue to believe that Jesus died for us.

And neither the Holy Spirit which indwells us, nor the glorified body, is earned nor can be earned (other than that it is "earned" by me believing that Jesus died for me).

Only sanctification is "earned", meaning it is an ongoing co-operative process between the saved Christian and the indwelling Holy Spirit and the written Word of God, so that rewards can be earned.

And since these rewards are NOT equal ("I set you over 10 cities, I set him over 5 cities"), that means that saved Christians "earn" more, or less, sanctification, depending, probably, on a number of factors such as family history and other propensities which may further or hinder one's progress in sanctification.

But salvation is all imputed thru faith or belief only, as the scripture says, "Abraham BELIEVED God and it (his belief) was counted to him as righteousness".

love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

[happyhappy]

quote:
When then is this righteousness imputed or "added to our account"? Abraham looked forward to Christ, and we Christians look backward to Christ.

And since Christ has now died for us, we Christians who look back to Christ have already received the Holy Spirit to indwell us and to help us.

But for now, the Holy Spirit is only "a treasure in an earthen vessel" and we are yet in this sin body wherein the "flesh lusts against the Spirit and vice-versa".

So probably the imputed righteousness is both that Holy Spirit which we now have dwelling in us and have access to, but to a larger extent the imputed righteousness has to refer to the glorified body and eternal life that Jesus had in its fullness, and that we have NOT received yet, but it IS already "added to our account", if so be that we continue to believe that Jesus died for us.

quote:
EDEN

It is not future tense, eden. And neither do we 'look back'. It is now. It is, and always will be now.

Now, the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh, however, that does not mean that the flesh overcomes the Spirit. This is so only in the moment that we fail to trust Christ.

And:

He does not 'help us'. He 'does it for us'. (This is important stuff.) That is the requirement in its absoluteness! Anything less frustrates His grace, and defeats His Spirit who is in us. It is otherwise known as 'sin'.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Sanctification is not earned. There is nothing we can 'earn'. That is the bottom line.

[happyhappy]

quote:
And since these rewards are NOT equal ("I set you over 10 cities, I set him over 5 cities"), that means that saved Christians "earn" more, or less, sanctification, depending, probably, on a number of factors such as family history and other propensities which may further or hinder one's progress in sanctification.

quote:
eden

One is either sanctified, or he is not. One abides in Christ, or he abides in sin. He may abide in sin, with occasional treks to the summit, or the pinnacle, but he is a victim of his condition by lack of sanctification, through faith, otherwise known as defeat.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

EDEN...Don't know if you are interested or not, but you and I posted messages at almost the same time on Jan 23rd, at 10:46 and 10:51 pm. I tried to explain sanctification. Your message came on right under mine and I don't think you read mine.

rivit

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison wrote to Eden

quote:
He does not 'help us'. He 'does it for us'. (This is important stuff.) That is the requirement in its absoluteness! Anything less frustrates His grace, and defeats His Spirit who is in us. It is otherwise known as 'sin'.

If we don't do anything after salvation, but God does it all, how then can one Christian be rewarded with being set over 10 cities and another Christian is rewarded with being set over 5 cities, and worse than yet, the one Christian who put his talent in the ground, even his talent was taken away from him.

There therefore has to be a degree of co-operation with the Holy Spirit on the part of the Christian.

I don't think that Jesus through the Holy Spirit operates my soul. In other words, I just stand by with my arms folded, and watch Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit operate my soul functions.

No, I think that the indwelling Spirit looks at each moment of my life and gives me the Holy Spirit's answer to that moment, and then it is still up to me to implement (or operate my soul) what the Holy Spirit proposed I should do next.

For even Jesus said, "I only do what the Father has first shown me", so the Father showed Jesus what to do, and then Jesus did what the Father had first shown Him:

John 5:19
Then Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for whatsoever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.

Jesus did not just stand back and watch the Father operate his soul FOR Jesus. Jesus still had to implement what the Father showed us.

And that same principle applies to us too, except that we Christians also have a sinful body to contend with ("a treasure in an earthen vessel"), and as such, we Christians will vacillate between doing what the Spirit proposed to do, or we still implement our own idea instead.

To be sure, our own ideas often lead to sin and may indeed ALWAYS be sin, but there are and will be times when we Christian DO implement what we heard the Spirit say, and then we do not sin because the Spirit cannot sin and does not sin.

So to repeat what Michael Harrison said

quote:
He does not 'help us'. He 'does it for us'. (This is important stuff.) That is the requirement in its absoluteness! Anything less frustrates His grace, and defeats His Spirit who is in us. It is otherwise known as 'sin'.

Jesus "helps us" by telling us what we should do next, and then we implement (or do not implement) what Jesus said to do, just like Jesus and the Father did together. (This is important stuff.)

love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
I don't think that Jesus through the Holy Spirit operates my soul. In other words, I just stand by with my arms folded, and watch Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit operate my soul functions.

quote:
eden

And that is the problem. You are unwilling. Or said another way, you are not willing to bear your Cross.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

I feel that it is a bad idea to keep the word "earned" in your vocabulary when talking about your relationship with God.

As for Sanctification, it seems to me that the word implies a Process.

As for Righteousness, peace and joy can be yours.
Maybe not you, but many Christians have been seduced into thinking that they must earn the right to experience the forgiveness of sin and the joy of answered prayer. Even seasoned Christians struggle to overcome feelings of unworthiness, fear, doubt, and condemnation that the enemy sends their way. The result is that they never experience the standard of living God intended for them.

The truth is that God, through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, has already made you righteous. Nothing you could ever do will make you more or less righteous in God's eyes. As we gain biblical understanding of how this right standing with God is meant to work in our lives, we begin to experience the joy of our salvation. The reality of the promises found in the Word of God will then begin to fall into place.

Righteousness is not an arrangement we have with other human beings, it is the righteousness that God gave us, it is free, and is our inheritance.
Every promise in the Bible hinges on our acceptance of the righteousness of God.

Abel offered God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, showing his righteousness. Heb 11:4) Noah walked with God (he was righteous) Gen 6:9) If we confess our sins God forgives them and removes our unrighteousness. John 1:9 ) In Sodom and Gomorrha Lot vexed with the sinful ways from day to day 2 Pet 2:6-8) Herod feared the righteousness of John Mk 5:20)

Righteousness can bring on scorn. Job 12:4

The Righteous attempt to do right. Prov 11:23 and Prov 14:32

The Righteous shall Flourish: Psalms 34:19, 92:12, and 140:13.

The righteous have principals, right from wrong, and attempt to live by them. The blood of Jesus makes us righteous.

Joseph was righteous, if not he could have destroyed Christmas

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
As for Sanctification, it seems to me that the word implies a Process.

bluefrog, sanctification is a gift, just as salvation is. One is in it, or one is slipping from it. I have often stated on this board that sanctification begins when one believes unto it. It does. One does not 'grow' into it, as is popularly believed. For those who believe that, think it is a lifetime process. But if it is a lifetime process, when is it complete? Does God mean for us to piddle away a lifetime before we are sanctified? That doesn't make sense? I can answer that. It is complete when Jesus 'died' on the Cross.

Sanctification is a gift that once believing, we abide in. We become 'qualified' by faith. It is a faith thing.

If however sanctification is a process, then salvation is a process. That doesn't make sense either. Does it to you? Either you have it, or you don't.

I watched Creflo talk about 'rest' the other night. I had a strong feeling that he does not get it yet. I desire that he would. Jesus desires that he would. After all, the way he explained it, it left something to be desired. For I believe that he missed the finest of points. He missed that we are walking in 'done'. We are not walking in doing. And I would love to engage him. I wouldn't mind speaking at his church. But that isn't apparent at this point, that it will be happening. Yet It might.

Hold on, I am looking for more...

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

But perhaps I am misreading him. I keep the channel open that I may discern his message. In other words, I keep hoping I have not missed his point. In any case, I am willing to discuss it.

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

I believe Salvation is a process in a sense, Heres why,

When people believe in Christ, they are saved (Acts 16:31). But we are also in the process of being saved from the power of sin (Rom 8:13 Phil 2:12).

Finally, we shall be saved from the very presence of sin (Rom 13:11 Titus 2:12-13).

Our experience of salvation will be complete when Christ returns (Heb 9:28) and the kingdom of God is fully revealed (Matt 13:41-43).

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

I believe that the man-made doctrines of salvation and sanctification become dangerous when they lead people to think that "surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus" is "icing on the cake"..........and not that it is a necessary response of faith on our part. Who thinks that God gives out the Holy Ghost to someone who is not ready to follow the Lord Jesus committing his/her life to doing the will of God???

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I believe Salvation is a process in a sense, Heres why,

When people believe in Christ, they are saved (Acts 16:31). But we are also in the process of being saved from the power of sin (Rom 8:13 Phil 2:12).

Finally, we shall be saved from the very presence of sin (Rom 13:11 Titus 2:12-13).

Our experience of salvation will be complete when Christ returns (Heb 9:28) and the kingdom of God is fully revealed (Matt 13:41-43).

Amen!!!!

We are justified solely through the Blood of Christ.

Romans 5:1,9 “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Man’s legal standing with Heaven is one of condemnation, and worthy of the righteous wrath of almighty God. Romans 3:23 “ For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;”

Justification is the act of God whereby He accepts the blood of Christ as the complete and satisfying sacrifice for all human sin, propitiation, thus changing our legal status and establishing a means of reconciliation with man.

Believers are justified by the grace of God through faith. Titus 3:7 “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Romans 3:28 “ Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” We see that the status of man is changed from that of the condemned to that of an heir, one who is able to inherit. Thus man is reconciled to God through the propitiation of Jesus Christ and restored to full legal righteous standing.

If one is truly saved, justified, then the Holy Spirit will begin the process of Sanctification, with the evidence of the Fruit of the Spirit. The Believer will turn their heart more and more to God, and thus from the heart keep His Commandments.

The word sanctification means to be set apart. The Holy Spirit is endeavoring to make the believer holy (set apart from the world), and spiritual (set apart to reflect the character of God). This is being accomplished in four phases.

First, the believer at conversion in receiving Christ, is set apart from sin (forgiven) and set apart to Christ, this is preparational sanctification. Matt. 23:19 “Ye fools and blind; for which is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift.”

Second, the believer is set apart from the worldly realm and is set apart to the Heavenly realm, this is positional sanctification. John 17:21 “That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”

The third form of sanctification sets apart the believer from the “old man” (sin nature), to the “new man” (thirst after righteousness). This is practical sanctification. 1Thess. 5:23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The fourth form of sanctification sets apart from the stain of sin and sets us apart to be presented pure and without blemish before the judgment seat of Christ. This is prospective sanctification. Eph. 5:27 “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

What could be clearer than the contrast of fleshly fruit and spiritual fruit found in Galations 5:
19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

And these are the commandments which we are to keep:

1 John 3:

23: And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

We who believe in the eternal security of the believer, believe that those who have by faith trusted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are eternally secure and can never lose their salvation. We further
believe it is the privilege of all believers to be assured of their salvation; that
this assurance rests not in themselves, but in the promises of God; that the
Scriptures teach that such as are truly regenerate, being born of the Spirit,
will not utterly fall away and finally perish, but are kept by the power of God
unto the day of salvation. We also believe that the doctrine of eternal
security should lead to a life of love, gratitude and obedience to God.

John 6:39;
39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:27-29;
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Philippians 1:6;
6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I Peter 1:3-5;
3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I John 2:19;
19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Romans 11:29.
29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Being good enoughbeing free from bad habits and bad behavior, earning enough "points" on the ledger of good behavioris not what brings about a new spiritual birth in a person. Salvation is solely a matter of believing in Jesus. The repentance and change of behavior come later as the Holy Spirit prompts it, and also as Holy Spirit helps a person to accomplish it! It is vitally important for you at this point to come to this understanding: Nothing you do apart from believing in Jesus Christ causes you to be saved. When you believe, the Spirit enters into you and causes your old sin nature to be transformed into a new nature that is in the likeness of God. The transformation of your spirit is a sovereign work of God; you cannot do it on your own, achieve it through your will or behavior, force it to happen by any other means than believing.

If you believe that your salvation came about by anything other than simply believing in what Jesus Christ did for you on the cross, then you believe that your salvation was in some way related to your own will and to your own works. If you believe that your salvation is related to your will and your works, then you will believe that your will and your works can in some way "undo" or negate your salvation.

On the other hand, if you believe that your salvation was based solely on what Jesus did for you and what the Holy Spirit has done in you, then you believe that your salvation was a sovereign work of God. Your part was simply to believe and receive what God provided and what God promised. The person who believes this must therefore conclude that since he did absolutely nothing to transform his old sin nature into a new spiritual nature, he cannot do anything to cause his new spiritual nature to revert to his old nature.

2 Cor. 1:
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Cor. 5:
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Eph. 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Earnest:

Strong's Number: 728 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ajrrabwvn of Hebrew origin (06162)

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry

Arrhabon 1:475,80
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-hrab-ohn'
Noun Masculine
Definition
1. an earnest
a. money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid
John Gills exposition of 2 Cor. 1:22

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

2 Corinthians 1:22

Who hath also sealed us?

"Two" things more are here attributed to God; "first", the sealing of his people. The use of seals is various, as to denote property in things, to distinguish one thing from another, to show esteem and affection for persons or things, and for security and protection, and to hide and conceal; all which might be applied to sealing, as expressive of the grace of God to his people, in claiming a property in them, distinguishing them from the rest of the world, setting his affections on them, securing and protecting their persons, and hiding them under the shadow of his wings: but sometimes a seal is used to certify, make sure, or assure the truth of a thing; see (John 3:33) (1 Corinthians 9:3) (Jeremiah 33:10) in which sense the word "sealing" is used here, and intends that assurance which God gives his people of their interest in his love, and the covenant of grace; of their election of God, and redemption by Christ; of their interest in Christ, and union with him; of their justification by him, and adoption through him; of the truth of grace in their hearts, their perseverance in it, and sure and certain enjoyment of eternal glory. The persons thus sealed are not carnal and unconverted persons, only believers in Christ, and these, after they commence such; the seal by which they are sealed, is not any of the ordinances, as circumcision under the Old Testament, or baptism, or the Lord's supper under the New; for these are no seals, nor are they ever so called; but the Spirit of God himself, as the Holy Spirit of promise; for the same who, in the next clause, is called the earnest, is the seal; see (Ephesians 1:13) .

"Secondly", the giving of the earnest of the Spirit:
and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts:
by "the Spirit" is meant, not the gifts and graces of the Spirit merely, but the Spirit of God and Christ himself; who was concerned in the creation of the world, in inditing the Scriptures, in forming and filling the human nature of Christ, and in his resurrection from the dead; he himself is given as an "earnest": the word (arrabwn) , here used, and in (2 Corinthians 5:5) (Ephesians 1:14) is the Hebrew word (Nwbre) , and comes from (bre) , which signifies "to become a surety, to give a pledge"; and is used for a pledge in covenants and bargains, both in Scripture, see (Genesis 38:17,18,20) , and in Jewish writings F4; which is given as an earnest, and in part of what it is a pledge of, and is never returned: the Spirit of God is an earnest or pledge of the heavenly inheritance, which is not only prepared for us, and promised to us, and Christ is in the possession of in our nature, in our room and stead, and as our representative; but the Spirit of God also is sent down "into our hearts" as a pledge of it; where he dwells as in his temple, supplies us with all grace, witnesses to us our sonship, and assures us of the heavenly glory: and as such he is "given"; and an unmerited free grace gift he is; for him to be given in this manner, and for such a purpose, is a wonderful display of the love of the Father, and of the Son, and is a surprising instance of his grace and condescension of the Spirit, and for which we should be abundantly thankful.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Believer has the absolute irrevocable guarantee from God of eternal redemption through the very indwelling presence of God the Holy Spirit. It is our seal that we ARE His for eternity.

Surety:

2 a : a formal engagement (as a pledge) given for the fulfillment of an undertaking : GUARANTEE b : a basis of confidence or security

Main Entry: 3earnest
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English ernes, ernest, from Anglo-French arres, erres, plural of erre earnest, from Latin arra, short for arrabo, from Greek arrhabOn, of Semitic origin; akin to Hebrew 'ErAbhOn pledge
1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain
2 : a token of what is to come : PLEDGE

It is within the heart of the Believer that the Holy Spirit produces spiritual fruit, and this fruit is evidence of the sealing of the Believer which has taken place.

A fruit of the Spirit is faith, and it is this faith by which we are saved.

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galations 5:
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" is saved, those who are saved, our Lord has declared that NONE can pluck them out of the Father's Hand. Those who preach a salvation dependent upon our matinance deny the power of God to Draw us, Seal us, Stablish us, to Maintain us.

1 John 2:
19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
I believe that the man-made doctrines of salvation and sanctification become dangerous when they lead people to think that "surrendering to the Lordship of Jesus" is "icing on the cake"..........and not that it is a necessary response of faith on our part. Who thinks that God gives out the Holy Ghost to someone who is not ready to follow the Lord Jesus committing his/her life to doing the will of God???
quote:
oneinchrist

I apologize oneinchrist. My word processor, every time I type in ‘oneinchrist’, it corrects it (so it thinks) to read “antichrist.” That’s so funny. (Maybe it is trying to tell me something.) But concerning your comment, it should not be considered “icing on the cake.” Rather, it should be considered obedience. And diverging from it, and teaching others so, is scattering.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus has pulled no punches.

~~< [Cross]

>~~

quote:
Justification is the act of God whereby He accepts the blood of Christ as the complete and satisfying sacrifice for all human sin, propitiation, thus changing our legal status and establishing a means of reconciliation with man.
quote:
Drew

Now you said that sanctified means to be set apart. Well, the minds of the many conjure up a notion of something simply moved from one place to another. That is all! But wherein is the change? Is it merely from one place to another, like a Chess piece is moved aside, perhaps taken off of the board, and gathered with like kind? No, ye who justify sin, do err, and do not read the scriptures the way they are written. But you'll say:

quote:
Believers are justified by the grace of God through faith. Titus 3:7 “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Romans 3:28 “ Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” We see that the status of man is changed from that of the condemned to that of an heir, one who is able to inherit. Thus man is reconciled to God through the propitiation of Jesus Christ and restored to full legal righteous standing.

Believers are not only ‘justified’ by grace. They are sanctified also by grace, but not without faith. And sanctified does not mean merely being moved somewhere, or set apart just because, just because. It means set apart by the washing of the Word. It means set apart by the cleansing of the Blood. A glass in the dishwasher which is taken out dirty and placed in the cupboard is still a dirty glass. It is not ‘set apart’ as we would enjoy, or demand, because it does not sparkle. (Neither does our God enjoy a dirty glass.) Therefore it is clearly unhealthy, and unsafe. But if it is washed, then is it clean. And if it is clean, then it is set apart by virtue of being clean. And it is further set apart by being ‘moved’ from one place to another place as 'representing' it to be clean. But God forbid that it should be placed in the cabinet dirty, and represented as being ‘clean’ to a guest, [happyhappy]

Are ye the servant of Christ, my friend? Represent ye Him well?

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi Caretaker,

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Caretaker, I am having difficulty reconciling the above passage from Luke with the two passages from Ephesians. How is it that Jesus can say that a man can fall away even after he has come to believe?--assumably having received the Holy Spirit.

Possible explanations:
1.Perhaps he did not receive the Holy Ghost upon believing.
2. Perhaps God did not want to save him.
3. Perhaps Paul is wrong
4. Perhaps Jesus is wrong
5. Perhaps he chose not to remain committed to Christ.

What do you think? #5 seems plausible to me.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:
Drew

You do understand Drew, that unlimited numbers of people see justification by the blood as a license to abide in the dark still. That means to sin! And the doctrine, in their mind, accommodates their wanderlust. After all, if they are justified, they are justified, no? But we are justified that by repentance we may be delivered. That means that by repentance, we may become sanctified. And without repentance it is not possible. So we do despite to the blood of Christ.

Now you said that sanctified means to be set apart. Well, the minds of the many conjure up a notion of something simply moved from one place to another. That is all! But wherein is the change? Is it merely from one place to another, like a Chess piece is moved aside, perhaps taken off of the board, and gathered with like kind? No, ye who justify sin, do err, and do not read the scriptures the way they are written. But you'll say:

quote:
Believers are justified by the grace of God through faith. Titus 3:7 “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Romans 3:28 “ Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” We see that the status of man is changed from that of the condemned to that of an heir, one who is able to inherit. Thus man is reconciled to God through the propitiation of Jesus Christ and restored to full legal righteous standing.
Believers are not only ‘justified’ by grace. They are sanctified also by grace, but not without faith. And sanctified does not mean merely being moved somewhere, or set apart just because, just because. It means set apart by the washing of the Word. It means set apart by the cleansing of the Blood. A glass in the dishwasher which is taken out dirty and placed in the cupboard is still a dirty glass. It is not ‘set apart’ as we would enjoy, or demand, because it does not sparkle. (Neither does our God enjoy a dirty glass.) Therefore it is clearly unhealthy, and unsafe. But if it is washed, then is it clean. And if it is clean, then it is set apart by virtue of being clean. And it is further set apart by being ‘moved’ from one place to another place as 'representing' it to be clean. But God forbid that it should be placed in the cabinet dirty, and represented as being ‘clean’ to a guest,

Are ye the servant of Christ, my friend? Represent ye Him well? [/QUOTE]

I will continue to follow and serve my Lord Jesus Christ, Michael, and I will also accept His Word as absolute Truth and not declare this or that as truth without scriptural validation.

1) As I declared WITH scripture, we are justified, declared righteous before God SOLELY by the Blood of Christ.

Romans 5:1,9 “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:” “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Man’s legal standing with Heaven is one of condemnation, and worthy of the righteous wrath of almighty God. Romans 3:23 “ For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God;”

Believers are justified by the grace of God through faith. Titus 3:7 “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Romans 3:28 “ Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” We see that the status of man is changed from that of the condemned to that of an heir, one who is able to inherit. Thus man is reconciled to God through the propitiation of Jesus Christ and restored to full legal righteous standing.

2) If one is truly justified then they are endowed by God with the earnest of the Spirit of God, the very indwelling presence of god the Holy Spirit. It is the TRUE gift of God and not of any works on our part:

Ephesians 2:
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Cor. 1:
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Cor. 5:
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Eph. 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

A Fruit of the Spirit is Faith, which is given by God as an endowment to the Believer:

Galations 5:
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

There are many who pay lip-service to Christ, just as the Master declared that there would be many that would say "Lord Lord", and He will say, "I never knew you". Just as there are five foolish virgins without oil in their lamps. Oil is the symbol of the Holy Spirit.

If the confessing Christian bears no spiritual fruit, one of which is faith then their heart and walk with Christ should be of a deep and abiding concern.

The more our hearts and focus is upon the Master the more He can mold and make us after His will, into His image. This is the process of sanctification, and is ongoing until we are in His presence, either at our physical death, or the future translation of His Body.

1 John 5:

4: For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6: This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8: And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9: If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12: He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Caretaker,

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Caretaker, I am having difficulty reconciling the above passage from Luke with the two passages from Ephesians. How is it that Jesus can say that a man can fall away even after he has come to believe--assumably having received the Holy Spirit?

Possible explanations:
1.Perhaps he did not receive the Holy Ghost upon believing.
2. Perhaps God did not want to save him.
3. Perhaps Paul is wrong
4. Perhaps Jesus is wrong
5. Perhaps he chose not to remain committed to Christ.

What do you think? #5 seems plausible to me.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Matt. 7:

20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He NEVER knew them.

1 John 2:
19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

Matthew 25:

1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2: And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3: They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Oil is symbolic of God's Holy Spirit, Who indwells the heart of the Believer, is a surety of promise, and endows with the Fruit of the Spirit, one of which is faith.

How many sit upon church pews paying lip service to Christ, and yet He knows them not?

If our hearts are closed He cannot fill us, mold us, make us after His will. We will not be justified, nor will He sanctify us during the rest of our life. Our life will be devoid of Him and He does not know us.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Ok Drew,
You have this guy that was all exited about the gospel when he heard it,he believes for a while, but then in time when temptation comes he falls away........and you say that Jesus will tell Him "Depart from Me, you worker of iniquity".

My question to you is.........why do you think that happened? why did the man not bear fruit? We know that we cannot blame the Holy Ghost.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Ok Drew,
You have this guy that was all exited about the gospel when he heard it,he believes for a while, but then in time when temptation comes he falls away........and you say that Jesus will tell Him "Depart from Me, you worker of iniquity".

My question to you is.........why do you think that happened? why did the man not bear fruit? We know that we cannot blame the Holy Ghost.

With love in Christ, Daniel

That question is between the individual and God.

Why was the heart not ready to receive?

Or was it received and the man will return as God draws him, as God moves within his heart?

Will that man eventually turn to the Gospel and be saved, prior to his death?

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

True and false conversion:

True and False Conversions

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Drew,
If the man was really only a false convert, then why would Jesus use the words "fall away?" That does not make sense to me.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Drew,
If the man was really only a false convert, then why would Jesus use the words "fall away?" That does not make sense to me.

With love in Christ, Daniel

A Believer has confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believes in their heart that God has raise Him from the dead. To "fall away" they would have to truly deny Christ and so in essence they never believed in the first place.

There are those raised in the church, and have participated in its practices of faith, and yet in their heart have never received Christ. They can fall away from the faith and practice and yet their heart was never there to begin with.

This Believer says it very well:

"I’m persuaded from a study of Scripture that we can have an assurance of our salvation not only for today but for all time. But the assurance that we have, or confidence in our future estate in salvation, must be based upon the right foundations. In other words, if my confidence that I will persevere is based on my confidence that I will not sin, it’s on very shaky ground. One thing the Bible makes clear to me is that even though I am a redeemed person, I will in all likelihood, and inevitably, continue to sin to some degree. If it were up to my strength to persevere to guarantee my future salvation, then I would have very little hope of persevering.

But I’m convinced that the Bible teaches that what God begins in our life, he finishes. Paul teaches, for example, in Philippians, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end.” My confidence rests in the fact that Jesus promises to intercede for me daily as my Great High Priest. My confidence for my future salvation rests in my confidence that God will keep his promise and that Christ will intercede for me and preserve me. Again, if it were left to me, I would obviously fall away. I like to look at it this way: I’m walking the Christian life with my hand in God’s hand. If my perseverance depended upon my holding tightly to God’s hand, I would surely fall away because at some point I would let go. But I believe that the Scriptures teach us that God is holding my hand, and because he is holding my hand, I don’t have to fear that I will fall ultimately and finally.

Now that doesn’t mean that Christians don’t involve themselves in serious sins and what we would call in theology “serious and radical fall,” but the issue we’re discussing here is whether a Christian will ever fall totally and finally. In the New Testament John tells us, for example, that “those who went out from us were never really with us,” and that “Christ does not lose those whom the Father has given to him.” So my confidence again rests in the intercession of Christ and God’s ability and promise to hold on to me. In and of myself I am capable of sinning even unto the loss of my salvation, but I’m persuaded that God in his grace will keep me from that."

Romans 8:

38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Perhaps God allows the trials and temptations of life to test the depth/width/height of the inner conviction of truth that lies in our hearts. This would both expose the false convert as well as the half-hearted Christian. This could lend to all of us to asking ourselves the right question.........Really, just how convinced are we of the truth?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi again Drew,
I do not believe that "falling away" would be restricted only to those who deny Jesus (verbally). I believe, for example, that there can be once upon a time converted believers who have gone into sexual sin and have not repented. I am convinced, especially by all the scriptural warnings, that there is a connection between sexual sin and apostacy(falling away).

I believe that we can defect from the faith with our lives.......... by turning away and no longer submitting our lives over to God for His purpose. This would be a resistance to the authority of Jesus as well as the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost, and we know that without "forgiveness of sin" and "sanctification" there is no salvation.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

You can and will believe as you choose Daniel.

I choose the Word which declares that none can pluck the Believer out of the Father's Hand.

Where is the Lord's place in their heart?

Going through the motions and paying lip-service is far different than being a Believer in Christ.

Jesus said to those "I NEVER knew you".

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Jesus said to those "I NEVER knew you".
------------
Notice Jesus says I never knew you and not that I knew you at one time. Repentance is more then saying a prayer of confession. It is turning from your sins and going the opposite way.
betty

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Drew,
I also believe the word when it says that noone can pluck the believer out of the Father's hand.......for who can fight against God?

Those who "fall away", "depart from the faith", or "go into apostacy", are those who choose, of their own will, to do so.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Drew,
I also believe the word when it says that noone can pluck the believer out of the Father's hand.......for who can fight against God?

Those who "fall away", "depart from the faith", or "go into apostacy", are those who choose, of their own will, to do so.

With love in Christ, Daniel

No Daniel the Word declares that they were never in the faith to begin with.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi Betty,
I agree with you about repentance. That is the reason why there cannot be, for example, a "practicing homosexual" who is a true convert.
The question for all of us is........are we convinced enough by the truth that we are willing to forsake our sin? Yes or no. A yes answer to this does not mean that we suddenly become sinless, but it does mean that our whole attitude towards sin is changed by the cross. We have sin, but repentance means that we choose to no longer be servants of it........willfully, premeditatively, purposefully.

With Love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Drew,
The word declares what you say in the context of the book of 1John(1 John 2:19 to be specific). As for the rest of scripture, you are making a blanket call.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

Hebrews 6:4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened; and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. v5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, v6)
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
1) As I declared WITH scripture, we are justified, declared righteous before God SOLELY by the Blood of Christ.
quote:
Drew

This would be humorous if it were not such a serious matter. Because the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, and so on have, “Declared with scripture,” whatsoever they would willfully assert. And here is the most serious part, that there will be those in heaven who will be turned away astonished because they understood not the scripture which they “declared.” Hence the Bible speaks of wheat and tares. And the book of Matthew records that, “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” That sounds very bitter. And it is because it speaks of those who were ‘self-assured’, but who did not have HIS righteousness, who had not a clue. That is why it will hurt so much. Weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth is out of bitterness against God for not seeing it their way.

Does this mean that they never knew Him? I'm coming to that. But here is a huge clue: One is not declared righteous before God SOLELY by the Blood of Christ, but by faith. And the Blood of Christ is how it is possible for us to ‘have’ faith, saving faith. For without it we would not be able, and would be under the law, ‘doing’ the works of the law.

And you said:

quote:
No Daniel the Word declares that they were never in the faith to begin with
quote:
Drew

Well, to say that they never had saving faith to begin with is errant. For seed which fell on stony ground germinated. That means, or represents that they believed. It means that they were, ‘Born Again’. For the germination of the seed is what makes the seed to be born again. It is when it is germinated that it begins life. Yet if it had not germinated, then it could be said that, “He never knew them.” For they had not believed.

But it is the water that germinates. It is the water that is, as far as the seed is concerned, tantamount to the spirit, which is received, which causes the seed to take root. The key word here is 'received'. Therefore the seed which did not take root in 'soil', did however begin life. It just didn't dig down into Him for the sustenence needed to survive. And scripture says that, "HE that overcomes," or in another place, "If ye endure to the end."

The seed cannot say that “it never knew HIM,” unless it stayed dead, and never received the water. But it did.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

There isn't much doubt that there are many who were or are Christians who will turn away from God. The scriptures say so. I relate them to the seed on the stone. It is hard to say why they turn away but stone is a good example, because it is hard to penetrate.

A great number of our teen agers who enter college find a stone wall built by a professor.
Satan throws stones to create doubt and confusion about the scriptures. Questions unanswered or answered wrong by someone can build a stone wall. Get my drift ?

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

The word sanctification, and all its derivates like "sanctified" and "saint", do NOT mean "holy", but mean set apart unto God.

Strong's Concordance

sanctification

1 Corinthians 1:30 But 1161 of 1537 Him 846 are 2075 you 5210 in 1722 Christ 5547 Jesus 2424, who 3739 of 575 God 2316 is made 1096 unto us 2254 5037 wisdom 4678 and righteousness 1343 and 2532 sanctification 38, and 2532 redemption 629.

sanctification 38

38 hagiasmos, from 37; properly, purification, i.e. (the state) purity; concretely (by Hebraism) a purifier:--holiness, sanctification.

37. hagiazo, from 40; to make holy, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate:--hallow, be holy, sanctify.

To me, "sanctified" means "what parts of my life are set apart for interaction with God and for use by God".

So salvation comes first through faith or belief that Jesus died for my sins and that Jesus was the Lord from heaven (God knows the hearts), for believing that I receive eternal life like Jesus had, at my glorification, and already now by having access to the Holy Spirit and to the Written Word of God.

Then after salvation comes sanctification, or the "setting parts of myself apart unto God".

What does this mean? A human being on earth participates in many activities, among which are: reading, music, being honest, helping to evangelize or not, and so on.

So what do I read? Am I still reading the same kinds of books as I was reading BEFORE I got saved? Or am I now reading mostly, or even exclusivesly, Christian books? IOW, is my reading sanctified or set apart unto God?

And what about music? Am I still listening to the same kinds of music as I was listening to BEFORE I got saved? Or is the music I now listen to mostly, or even exclusively, Christian music? IOW, is my music now sanctified or set apart unto God?

And what about my honesty level? Am I still about as honest, or dishonest, as I was BEFORE I got saved, or am I now mostly always honest? IOW, is my honesty level now sanctified or set apart unto God?

And so on with all our activities and interest, like movies or type of conversation that interests us, are those things more sanctified or
set apart unto God than they were BEFORE I got saved.

That what it means to "become sanctified". And CONTRARY to what Michael Harrison thinks, I think that this sanctification or "parts of me being set apart unto God", WAS A GRADUAL THING.

The more I learned about God and the more I grew to love God, the more parts of me became sanctified or more set apart unto God than BEFORE I got saved.

But there are many Christians, who, probably for all the reasons enumerated in the parable of the sower, who just never set any of their parts apart unto God.

They have salvation by faith, but they do not have sanctification IN THIS LIFE, but probably if they make it still saved to the end of their life, they may THEN be SET APART unto God since the Bible says that Jesus has also been made unto us SANCTIFICATION:

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him are you IN Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.

The Holy Spirit and the Written Word of God are wholly sanctified or set apart unto God. So whatever we do that is guided by the Holy Spirit will be or tend to sanctification or becoming set apart.

1 Corinthians 3:3
But you are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying and strife and divisions, are you not carnal and walk as men?

So all the vessels of the temple were "hagio" or "set apart unto God". Likewise now when we Christians "dedicate or set apart a part of our life unto God", we are "sanctified" or "hagio" in that area of our life.

But there can be other areas of our life which we have not yet, and may or may not ever, dedicate or set apart unto God. And it is probable that ONLY JESUS and Adam and Eve BEFORE THE FALL were ever WHOLLY SET APART UNTO GOD.

love, Eden

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

EDEN...You said: The word SANCTIFICATION, and all it's derivities like sanctioned and saint do NOT mean holy, but mean set apart unto God.

Well, if HOLY does not mean Set Apart unto God, then what does it mean ? And, who cares about all your concordance stuff ?

Following that statement you went on to argue with yourself. Are you not even liking yourself now? lol Later you went on to talk about doin.

I told you about my explaining "sanctioned" but you must have not read it. Jan 22, 2009, at 10:46 pm (page 1 on this board).

Ya see, (I'm not trying to be a wise guy)it is the believer setting themselves apart unto God in their daily lives. Being holy. We experience sanctification through the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

Now, lets change the subject. Sanctification is too long a word to keep spelling. lol

rivit

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

eden, God doesn't require that HIS followers have a college degree to follow Him. Therefore it will be most easily understood when I say that one is "Set Apart" unto Him by being 'clean'. That is what sanctifies one. That is what sanctified means.

[Cross]

So if you are dirty, you are not sanctified.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

MICHAEL...You got it ! They go their way, we go Christ's way. [youpi]

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

whatever [roll on floor]

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Eden,
I read your most recent above post and I do want to get to the bottom of something with you once and for all---straight talk---yes or no---and no beating around the bush.

You stated above that there can be a christian who never sets any of their parts unto God......in other words they have salvation, but never receive sanctification.

I am wondering how that can be possible. If, positionally, one has received the righteousness of God through faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus, then positionally they are also a disciple of Jesus. A disciple by definition is a learner of Jesus-- one who renders himself subject to the authority of Jesus and puts himself subject to His teachings. Now once one has surrendered his life to Christ for service according to the will of God, then begins the journey in which we know that not everyone grows at the same pace.

So my question is............Do you claim that it is an option for a disciple as to whether or not he wants to be subject to Christ? In other words, that he can allow the devil and the world system to reign over his life, and still expect to be saved?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

oneinchrist wrote to Eden

quote:
... then positionally they are also a disciple of Jesus. A disciple by definition is a learner of Jesus.

Not if they are playing hookie from Jesus's school. People are happy enough to accept salvation by believing that Jesus died for their sins (God knows the hearts), but then TO DO MORE than that, to get DEEPER with Jesus, the majority of Christians DO NOT seem to be interested in that DEEPER life connection with Jesus? Why is that?

That is what we are questioning. How come so many saved Christians DO NOT continue on into sanctification ("setting parts of their life apart unto God"), and other Christians DO continue on into sanctification? I don't know what the ansswer is, other than the parable of the sower.

Matthew 13
18 Hear therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When anyone heares the word of the kingdom, but does not understandeth it, then comes the wicked one and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

20 But he who received seed into stony places, the same is he who hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it;

21 Yet he has no root in himself, but does endure for a while: but when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, after a while he is offended.

22 He also who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, but the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word and he becomes unfruitful.

23 But he who received seed into the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it; who also bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

Of these 4 kinds of people, 3 kinds must have actually LOOKED LIKE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS FOR A WHILE, until in the end, ONLY the 4th kind of Christian ENDED UP BEING A REAL CHRISTIAN who "brought forth fruit".

The 2nd kind of Christian was like this:

20 But he who received seed into stony places, the same is he who hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it;

21 Yet he has no root in himself, but does endure for a while: but when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, after a while he is offended.

He believed but he "had no root in himself", which presumably means that this Christian "did not start to read the Word of God, and did not start to listen to the Holy Spirit and so had no root of God inside of himself", is that what it means? And that was this 2nd Christian's downfall or path of backsliding, but he became a NON-Christian eventually, right?

And the 3rd kind of Christian was like this:

22 He also who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, but the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word and he becomes unfruitful.

This 3rd kind of Christtian also initially was a Christian but then eventually the care of this world and riches, choked out the word, so that eventually this 3rd kind of Christian, also becomes a NON-Christian.

But both the 2nd AND 3rd kinds WERE Christians at some point, right, and then they FELL AWAY AGAIN.

So who is to say of today's Christians who will fall away, or who will make it?

And can Christians go on thinking they are Christians even when in the eyes of God they are already no longer Christians?

One of the criteria for the 4th kind of Christians is that "they understood it", and another is that they "bore fruit". WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? LOL

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

bluefrog wrote to Eden

quote:
And, who cares about all your concordance stuff?

I don't know, does anyone here care about all my concordance stuff?

I know I see "my Concordance stuff" as a deeper search to discover WHAT the ORIGINAL WORDS were in the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE in which the Bible was written by the Holy Spirit, but if you just want to understand the English TRANSLATION level of the Word of God, that's up to you.

love, Eden
"all this concordance stuff"

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Good Morning Eden,
I just finished reading your post and I will tell you what I really think.

A Christian, I believe, can, at various times resist his master, but not his whole life long.

You see, I believe it is highly questionable whether or not an individual has repented if he goes on constantly opposing God. Repentance, while it does begin with a humble acknowledgement of ones sin, it also accompassses a turning of ones orientation from a position of rebellion to God and TURNING TO GOD AND HIS WILL.
Now we know that without repentance there is no forgiveness and without forgiveness of sin there is no salvation.

I gotta get goin 2 work now. Thank you for your heart in fellowship.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Eden, I guess we can all look forward to seeing Hitler in Heaven, he claimed to be a Christian...he would definitely be a carnal christian but what the heck , he will get there he just will not have any rewards.....

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

Eden,

If we look at the book of Luke 8:4-8 we read this:

"And a Great crowd coming together, and those in each city coming to Him, He spoke by a parable:.....

Yeshua said this parable when many people came to Hear the Word of God, and the parable is about Hearing the Word of God, Yeshua wanted to make all those there coming to Hear the Word aware of the available choices.

In Luke, we read that some of the seed fell "By the Wayside" and it never sprang up nor gave any fruit but was trampled on and eaten by birds.

then the explanation is given in Luke 8:11-12

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the Word of God. Those "By the Wayside" are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and Takes away the word OUT OF THEIR HEARTS, lest they should Believe and be saved.

Okay, NO Christian here.

We agree that the seed that is sowed is the Word of God. However, the Word does not give everywhere the same results, since its fruitfulness depends on the Ground where it falls.

And scripture says that one of the ground is called "By the Wayside" which according to Yeshuas interpretation is people that though Hear the Word of God, "do Not understand it".

So what does that mean? The Greek word translated as "Understand" is the verb "suniemi that is used 6 times in Matt 13, of which 5 is in regard to this parable.

Matt 13:13-15

"...seeing they do not See, and hearing they do not Hear, nor do the Understand (suniemi). This is a fulfillment of the Prophecy by Isaiah.

And the reason theis one does not understand is because this ones heart is "Calloused" according to Isaiah.

It is true that with the ears one hears the Word of God but it is with the Heart(the inner part of the mind) that one "Understands". It is not a simple mental understanding of the word that is meant in this parable. Its an understanding and acceptance of the Word with the heart.

Thats why the result of the seed is not dependent on the Seed/Word, but on the Ground, the hearts of those who hear it.

The Seed falling on different kinds of Ground(Hearts) of different quality, gives different results.

When the heart is calloused then the Word of God/Seed will be like falling "By the Wayside". neither to spring up or give fruit.

2Corin. 4:3-4 "But even if our gospel is VEILED, it is veiled to those perishing, whose Minds to god of this world has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them".

Ephesians 4:17-19 "This i say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should NO longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the Vanity of their Mind, having their "UNDERSTANDING" Darkened, being alinated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, Because of the BLINDNESS OF THEIR HEART; who being past feeling have given themselves over to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness".

So there are people to whom the Word of God is veiled and who do not understand but Not because of the Word/Seed but because their hearts are calloused, hard not permitting any growth of the seed.

The Greek word "blindness" in Eph. is "porosis" which means "callousness" It is also used in Maek 3:5 to describe the hearts of the Pharisees who persecuted Yeshua.

okay, so a seed can spring up on various kinds of grounds, but it will not survive or give fruit in all of them.

Matt 13:5-6 Speaks of the "stony ground". Mark 4:16-17 says

"These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, IMMEDIATELY RECIEVE IT with gladness; and they have No root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the words sake, IMMEDIATELY THEY FALL AWAY".

When Satan brings such persecutions and tribulations against these people, they immediately fall away. Their falling away is not caused because the affliction is too heavy for them to bear, for 2Corinthians 4:17, 1Corinthians 10:12-13 and 1 Peter 5:10 says that the affliction will be light and no more than what we can bear.

They fall away because they are not Willing to show even the smallest resistance to Satan. As James 4:7 says "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil(and as a result of resisting)he will flee from you".

1Peter 5:8-9 "be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Whom resist steadfast in faith, knowing that your brothers thruout the world are undergoing the same kinds of sufferings".

The 3rd ground where the seed falls is the thorny ground. The seed falling into this ground is choked, and so gives NO fruit.

Mark 4:18-19 "And these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones that hear the word, and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful".

The Word of God is kept in their hearts together with other things such as "the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches and the lusts of other things". These act as thorns to the Words growth chocking it.

Yeshua says in Matt 6:25-34

"Therfore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not LIFE more than food, and the body more than clothing?........For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you..."

If we put in the top position all the cares and other things, then those other things will choke the Word, making it unfruitful.

These first 3 Grounds where the Seed fell were not able to make the seed fruitful.

Matt 13:8 "But others fell on Good Ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundred fold, some sixty, some thirty"

Matt 13:23 "But he that received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word, and UNDERSTANDS(GREEK-SUNIEMI)it; who indeed bears fruit, and produces: some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

So here we see that this time the seed did not fall "By the Way", or on Stony ground, or among thorns, but ON A GOOD GROUND, composed of people that Hear the Word AND Understand(Suniemi)

As Luke 8:15 explains this, "understand it":

"But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, in an Honest and Good HEART, having heard the word, KEEP it, and bring forth WITH PATIENCE".

Remember the 1st category of people in the parable couldn't "understand", receive, the Word for their hearts were calloused, hard.

In contrast the people of the 4th category (the only fruitful one) understand the word putting it in their Good and Honest Heart.

The 1st category had hard hearts, but in the last category the hearts are good and honest.

In the 2nd category the people had No endurance but fell immediately with the 1st affliction, but the 4th category the people haare Patient (they bring forth fruit with Patience as the scripture says) and do not give up.

And lastly, the 3rd category the Word of God was choked by the various cares and desires which got the top Position, but in the 4th category the word/Seed is "KEPT in the Hearts of those people, not losing its position for the sake of any other thing. This one is fruitful.

Yeshua said in John 15:1-2, 4-5, 8, 16

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. EVERY branch in Me that DOES NOT bear Fruit H(God) Takes Away: and EVERY branchthat bears fruit, He(God) prunes, that it may bear MORE fruit.....

"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears MUCH fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

"By this My Father is glorified, that you bear MUCH fruit; so you will be My disciples"

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you that YOU SHOULD GO AND BEAR FRUIT, AND THAT YOUR FRUIT SHOULD REMAIN: that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give you."

God cleans every branch that bears fruit so that it may bring forth more, because the more fruit that one brings, the more God is glorified!

So we see that in the Parable of the Sower the Word of God may be spoken to various kinds of people and the results will be different depending on the Heart of the person that hears the Word.

Some will reject it, others will accept it till the 1st affliction, others will receive it but eventually put it in the last position, putting other things over it.

Finally, others will keep it in a good and honest heart bringing forth fruit. That is why Yeshua, on finishing the interpretation of the parable said "Take heed HOW you HEAR" (Luke 8:18)

"Therefore take Heed how you Hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him."

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Becausehelives LOL! [happyhappy]

And.... FWIWorth, I have felt that the one's who fell among thorns are quite Christian. However, they bring not forth 'fruit to perfection'. Scripture does not indicate that they are not at all fruitful. In fact, this description applies probably to the bulk of Christianity.

And all the hype, and all the 'purposing' is not a substitute for 'fruit to perfection' . It kinda displaces it. And that is the message of Paul, that we should 'find', our righteousness 'proper' that we may bring forth some good fruit, and not languish in rhetorical behavior (dead works). For this is the condition of the average believer because he or she will not "seek first the Kingdom of God." Rather, he or she seeks the 'fruit'. That is self defeating, for fruit is only borne when we engage Christ properly, and directly. Amen!

(I wish I could put this on a billboard!)

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

and eden, why do I pick on you? It isn't because you pick on me. [Big Grin]

quote:
That is what we are questioning. How come so many saved Christians DO NOT continue on into sanctification ("setting parts of their life apart unto God"), and other Christians DO continue on into sanctification? I don't know what the ansswer is, other than the parable of the sower.

quote:
ol eden!

And here is the epitome of failed sanctification. HE wants the whole package. One does not 'set apart "parts" of his or her life', unto God. In fact that is an offense. It is the sin of Annanias and Shapira, because it is withholding. God wants 'total' surrender, else one is quite equal to the seed which fell among thorns. These will be found to be always questioning, "What is sanctification?" (This can not be strongly enough asserted.)

And total surrender is simply a commitment of faith, to trust, wholly. God keeps it simple always. But it doesn't happen until it happens.

Posted by bluefrog (Member # 7448) on :

About the concordance stuff...I should have not said anything about it, I'm sorry.

How long now have we been discussing the words: soul, spirit, righteousness, works, faith, sanctification, rapture, names to call God, etc, and ended up agreeing on nothing much ? There is something wrong with that picture.

In an attempt to prove our point we start using other tools of mass destruction (hehe)and I have yet to read anywhere where even one of us gave in and said "You are right" and that "ain't right" is it ?

It's like we are bending over backwards to read something into the word that isn't there. It's like...That is too simple, let's see here......Isn't that exactly what Satan want's us to do ? Question and alter, doubt and pout, claim confusion and finally just drop the whole thing ?

Jesus said that if we don't understand the parables we don't understand the word. Then when He goes on and explains them in detail and we still don't get it, then it seems time to stand back and figure.

The most difficult person for me to deal with is myself. I'm always around and in the way wanting something every time I turn around. When I was younger that was a big problem so I decided to change identy. I was stuck with my body but identy I could change. I asked Jesus about this and He said "I can do that". Come to find out He had already set a plan and purpose for me. I found that my identy did not really come from my looks or my marriage and not from my education or income...stuff like that. My idenity came from my heart and "I" was not the center of my life, HE was. He did all this for me, and all I had to do was believe he would. It is that thing called Faith.