quote:

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I always believe that it is best to err on the side of caution.

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Wild B,
You are not suggesting that it is OK to ignore the warnings of our intercessor??? are you??

I would question( only as a fallible human) the claims of one who states they have the seal of God, but yet at the same time discounts the importance of heeding to Jesus' warnings throughout scripture.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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You are not suggesting that Paul would teach us contrary to the will of Jesus Christ??? are you??
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Interesting that you would ask me that Carol.

How do you explain the fact that even though Paul gave man the reasons to have confidence in Salvation through Christ, that the same Paul also speaks of the reality of backsliding, falling into sin, and ultimately falling away? Dont you think that falling away would have something to do with ignoring warnings?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
The KJV only mentions "falling away" once in the New Testament concerning the Antichrist.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - 4 (KJV)
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

In the NLT "falling away" is mentioned only once in Jude.

Jude 1:24 - 25 (NLT)
24Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault. 25All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.

The word "backsliding" is used only in the Old Testament.

"Falling into sin" appears nowhere in either translation.
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Yeshua says to the Loveless Church

"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have LEFT your fisrt love."

"Remember therefore from where you have FALLEN; repent and DO the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and Remove your lampstand from its place-unless you repent."
 

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Posted by Grams (Member # 5169) on :
 
I do believe that once you are saved you are
always saved.
But I do believe you may have thought you were
saved but were not !
We can come close , but close is not good either.

Things were different back when I grew up.
We had not been told to use the bible!
And we were always to do works.
And I was not saved till I left that Church.
 

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Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
2 Timothy 3:1-7
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy.

Without natural affection, truce breakers, falst accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good.

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasure more than of God.

HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS, BUT DENYING THE POWER THEREOF: FROM SUCH TURN AWAY.

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led with divers lusts.

EVER LEARNING, BUT NEVER ABLE TO COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.


Once Saved always Saved holds no weight to scripture. In other words this theory contradicts the Word of God and God Word is true.
For GOD IS NOT A MAN THAT HE SHOULD LIE, NOR THE SON OF MAN THAT HE SHOULD REPENT. (Numbers 23:19)

These are they which believe but they do not believe savingly. Some may called them tares or fence sitters. Some call them nominal believers who might even profess being followers of Christ, but who were never truly born again they never truly repented and accepted Christ or never committed fully to Him.

Beleif in Christ Jesus is only the beginning for anyone who seeks eternal life. In addition to beleif the practice of faithful living, of righteous works, of obedience to God and to the laws of God and a fearful respect of the following.

Woe unto the so called christians that have a form of godliness but deny the words, the teachings and commands of the True and Living God. (Religious Charades)

God will not tolerate "Save today Out Tomorrow, In and out Saints."

There is no horseplay or compromising with Jesus Christ and Salvation. His Word is plain and made easy to all that truly study, seek His Face, His statues, and His laws.

God has no respected person His Word does not apply for some and not for others. As He has said unto one He says unto ALL. He has no pleasure in sin or those who turn back that hold the plow.

But nevertheless, "He is the God of a second Chance."

Revelation 2:4-5
Repent and do thy first works over...
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
the first Adam...

was he not created in the image of Yahweh?

is not the image of Yahweh eternal?

The first Adam was created an eternal being, doubt it not!

But Adam was warned what not to do, just as oneinchrist pointed out the scriptures give the believer warnings....

A believer's obedience will not save them or add anything to what Yahshua has done for them through His obedience to the Cross and His Blood on the Mercy Seat but the individual that thinks his or her continual lack of regard for the warnings given to those that would choose to follow Yahshua with only the loss of reward are sadly mistaken.

If my only concern was as some of you who preach that damnable message of "Once Saved always Saved" that I might lose some reward that I don't deserve anyway on Judgment Day, I would rejoice but the only thing I fear is a Holy God...who warns if how you live and what you preach causes a little one to fall, it would be better for that person to have never been born.
 

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Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
No matter how one may try to camouflage "The Once Saved Always Saved Theory" there is no truth in it in "God's Holy Word" that will not return to Him Void.

This is a theory that was and is made on a theory of misinterpreted scripture, and it is causing many to be deceived. It is one that the "Father of Lies" has placed in the mind of many who causes others to err.

Be not deceived God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sowed that shall he reaped. The soul that sinneth shall die, and the soul that continous to sin though she or he was once saved shall in no way enter into the Kingdom of God.

It is written in the Holy Bible for it is the Word of God.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good (what is right) and doeth it not, to him is is sin. (James 4:13-17)

God said it I beleive it and to me that settles it.

Love and Peace to All!
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
So exactly what sin will make me NOT SAVED any more?

Is it a special one?

Or does it take more then one?


If I sin twice then I am lost forever?

Is that right?
 

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Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
Nope! In no ways that is not what the scripture is saying.

When we become saved if one sin would cause us to be lost none of us would stand the ghost of a chance of entering into God's Kingdom.

For it is written that ALL have come short of the Glory of God.

None of us have crossed every "T" and dotted every "i" in our walk of Salvation.
The sin the scripture is talking about are the one's we continously do, and never getting our selves totally right with God.

David was a man after God's own heart not because he was so righteous because David sinned more than once.

He was a man after God's own heart because "David had a heart (mind) of repentance.

God knows our hearts (minds) and He knows whether our repentance is sincere or not. If it is we will not continously sin. Why? Because we truly love the Lord and want to please Him and not man. Amen! And to God be the Glory!
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
If we could "lose" our salvation due to something we "do", then we must have "done" something in the first place to earn it.

Losing one's salvation just doesn't square with Scripture.

When we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion, He comes to stay. Of course, we don't live the "perfect" Christian life, but 1 John 1:9, says that when we sin, and we confess our sins, we can be cleansed from our unrighteousness.

Scripture has to interpret Scripture, and there is no consistent support for one losing his/her salvation.

Praise God--not so that we can sin,but so that we can know that God Himself has taken up residence within us to empower us to resist sin and convict us when we stumble.

We have true joy, and peace...
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
If we could "lose" our salvation due to something we "do", then we must have "done" something in the first place to earn it.

Losing one's salvation just doesn't square with Scripture.

When we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion, He comes to stay. Of course, we don't live the "perfect" Christian life, but 1 John 1:9, says that when we sin, and we confess our sins, we can be cleansed from our unrighteousness.

Scripture has to interpret Scripture, and there is no consistent support for one losing his/her salvation.

Praise God--not so that we can sin,but so that we can know that God Himself has taken up residence within us to empower us to resist sin and convict us when we stumble.

We have true joy, and peace...
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
If we could "lose" our salvation due to something we "do", then we must have "done" something in the first place to earn it.

Losing one's salvation just doesn't square with Scripture.

When we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion, He comes to stay. Of course, we don't live the "perfect" Christian life, but 1 John 1:9, says that when we sin, and we confess our sins, we can be cleansed from our unrighteousness.

Scripture has to interpret Scripture, and there is no consistent support for one losing his/her salvation.

Praise God--not so that we can sin,but so that we can know that God Himself has taken up residence within us to empower us to resist sin and convict us when we stumble.

We have true joy, and peace...
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Well, would you believe I am trying to get my post count up...



 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Hi Kingo. I agree with you. We can do nothing to earn our salvation and we can not keep it in ourselves.
It is God's work in us.
Have a great evening.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
THE ARMINIAN VIEW OF SECURITY

James Arminius (1560-1609) received his training in strict Reformed theology. When asked to defend supralapsarianism against sublapsarianism, he found himself guardedly defending the sublapsarian position. His writings, collected in three volumes, consist mostly of occasional treatises that grew out of the controversies he found himself in. The system known as Arminianism took his views much further and was forged by Simon Episcopius (1583-1643).

Among the principal teachings of Arminianism are the following.

1. Foreknowledge. God’s decrees are based on His foreknowledge (meaning foresight). Election was due to foreseen faith and reprobation to foreseen resistance to grace. Though Arminius also viewed foreknowledge as foresight, he did say that “God decreed to save some and damn certain particular persons” (The Works of James Arminius, translated by James Nichols [Auburn: Derby and Miller, 1853], 1:248).

2. Pollution, not guilt. Man inherited pollution from Adam but not imputed guilt. Depravity is not total for man can incline his will toward good deeds.

3. Perfection. It is possible for a believer to live in such conformity to God’s will so as to be called perfect.

4. Loss of salvation. Arminianism clearly teaches that a believer may lose his salvation. Arminius said: “I never taught that a true believer can either totally or finally fall away from the faith and perish; yet I will not conceal that there are passages of Scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect” (Works, 1:254).

On a more popular level, Arminians sometimes equate the position of eternal security with a license to sin. Of course, Calvinists do sin and excuse it, but so do Arminians. Our life should adorn our doctrine, but our life, good or bad, neither makes doctrine true or untrue.

As a practical matter, the Arminian view of the possibility and reality of losing one’s salvation sometimes leads to a cataloging of sins. In one category are sins which will cause you to lose your salvation; in another, those which do not. Of course, some sins are worse than others (Matt. 7:1-5; John 19:11), but if one sin can cause the loss of salvation, then any sin can. Resistance to this conclusion may account for the perfectionism teaching in Arminianism.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
THE REASONS FOR ETERNAL SECURITY

Basically security is based on the grace of God and the fact that eternal life is a gift and it is eternal. When a person believes in Christ, he is brought into a relationship with the Godhead that assures his salvation is secure. Of course, this is true only of born again people. There are those who profess but do not possess life. Sometimes we can make a reasonably sure judgment as to whether an individual only professes or actually possesses eternal life. Sometimes we cannot. But the regenerated person’s salvation is secure because of that relationship to God which he has through faith.

A. Reasons Related to the Father

1. His purpose. God purposed to glorify the same group He predestined, called, and justified (Rom. 8:30). This daring statement could not be made if any one of that group could lose his salvation. If so, then the ones whom He justified would not be the same number as the ones He glorified. But the text says they will be the same.

2. His power. Most would agree that God’s power is able to keep the believer (and it is, Jude 24), but some would argue that it can be thwarted by a person renouncing his faith. But the Lord said that we are secure in His hand and the Father’s hand and that no one can seize the believer from the safe position (John 10:28-29). Now “no one” means no one, including the individual himself. The promise does not say that no one, except yourself, can seize the believer out of God’s hand. It says no one.

B. Reasons Related to the Son

1. His death. Paul asks two questions in Romans 8:33: who will bring a charge against God’s elect, and who condemns them? His answer that no one can is based on the death, resurrection, intercession, and advocacy of Christ (v. 34). If any sin can undo a believer s salvation, and if in fact, he can lose that salvation, then Christ’s death did not pay for that sin. But it did, Paul asserts. Our Lord Himself also declared that He would lose nothing of what the Father gave Him (John 6:39-40)—everyone who believes in Him will be raised at the last day, not everyone who believes and perseveres.

2. His prayers. Christ’s present ministry in heaven of praying for His own consists of two aspects: a preventive ministry (intercession) and a curative ministry (advocacy). His prayer in chapter 17 illustrates the preventive aspect. There He prayed that we might be kept from the evil one (v. 15), that we would be sanctified (v. 17), that we would be united (v. 21), that we would be in heaven with Him (v. 24), and that we might behold His glory (v. 24). Because of His unceasing intercession for us He is able to save us completely and eternally (Heb. 7:25).

Advocacy comes into action when we sin (1 John 2:1). Again, if any sin can undo salvation (and any can), then Satan has an airtight case against any believer whenever he sins (Rev. 12:10). He can justly demand the Christian’s eternal damnation, and were it not for our Advocate, we would be condemned. But the Lord points to His work on Calvary that removes the guilt of all our sins, those committed before and after salvation, and this suffices to answer Satan’s charge.

I sinned. And straightway, posthaste, Satan flew

before the presence of the Most High God,

And made a railing accusation there.

He said, “This soul, this thing of clay and sod,

Has sinned. ‘Tis true that he has named Thy name,

But I demand his death, for Thou hast said,

‘The soul that sinneth, it shall die.’ Shall not

Thy sentence be fulfilled? Is justice dead?

Send now this wretched sinner to his doom.

What other thing can righteous Ruler do?”

And thus he did accuse me day and night,

And every word he spoke, O God, was true!

Then quickly One rose up from God’s right hand,

Before whose glory angels veiled their eyes,

He spoke, “Each jot and tittle of the Law

Must be fulfilled; the guilty sinner dies!

But wait—suppose his guilt were all transferred

To Me, and that I paid his penalty!

Behold My hands, My side, My feet! One day

I was made sin for him, and died that he

Might be presented faultless, at Thy throne!”

And Satan fled away. Full well he knew

That he could not prevail against such love,

For every word my dear Lord spoke was true!

—Martha Snell Nicholson

C. Reasons Related to the Spirit

1. He regenerates. If we are born again by the Spirit when we believe, then if we can renounce our faith to lose our salvation, we would have to have the new birth taken away as well.

2. He indwells. If salvation can be lost, then the presence of the Spirit within the life of the believer would have to be removed. The Christian would become disindwelt.

3. He baptizes. The Spirit joins the believer to the body of Christ when he believes (1 Cor. 12:13); therefore, if salvation can be lost, the Christian would have to be detached from the body of Christ.

4. He seals. The Spirit seals the believer until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30). If salvation can be lost, then His sealing would not be until the day of redemption but only until the day of sinning, or apostasy, or disbelief.

Of course, Scripture gives no hint that a Christian can lose the new birth, or that he can be disindwelt, or that he can be removed from the body of Christ (thus maiming His body), or be unsealed. Salvation is eternal and completely secured to all who believe.

To be sure, believers sin and are warned against false profession and Christian immaturity, but God never takes back the gift of His salvation once it is received. Believers will not always persevere in godliness. Peter did not (Gal. 2:11). Many Ephesian believers did not (Acts 19:18). Lot did not (2 Peter 2:7). At the Judgment Seat of Christ there will be some whose works will be burned and who will be saved as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15). Even though every believer will bear some fruit (4:5), it is difficult if not impossible to quantify how much or what kind each one will bear and thus to make judgments as to the spiritual condition of an individual.

(Basic Theology)
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo, Carol, WildB, Grams.... all your beliefs are built on the idea that Salvation is instant and not progressive....

you need to study more closely the scripture....the scriptures do not teach instant salvation but a progressive salvation....

all of nature teaches seed time and harvest....

the word that comes through preaching is continually referred to as a seed...Yahshua said to His disciples, if you do not understand "this Parable" the Parable of the sower, they would not understand any of His doctrine.

first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head (Mark 4:28,

until Christ is formed in you” (Galatians 4:19)

for the new creation to be able to come forth, there must first be time in the womb of Yahweh.

or if you want to look at it another way the seed must lay in the earth until certain processes take place before the seed comes forth unto life...

but there is no instant life as taught by the "Once Saved Always Saved" crowd

some seeds never have a chance to even begin to grow because Satan steals them....

some seeds begin to grow only to be scorched by the sun and die....

some seeds make it to growth but are choked out by weeds...

all those seeds are the same eternal seeds of Yahweh's word
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Can one lose one's salvation? If yes how and if not why?

The apostle John wrote us a wonderful promise from God: John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Does this mean that once we accept Jesus in our heart by faith, and thus are saved, that we can do anything even immoral things, and we still will be saved? Let's see what the Scriptures says about this.

1 Tim 4:1: "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

This text shows that Christians can loose their salvation if they follow deceiving spirits.

2 Peter 2:20-22: "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.'"

The apostle Peter indicates clearly here that it is worst for someone who has accepted Jesus in his life to return to his old ways than "not to have known the way of righteousness". Why? The book of Hebrews explains this for us.

Heb 6:4-6: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

This text describes Christians who not only accepted Jesus by faith into their life, but also personally tasted God's Holy Spirit. What happens to them if they "fall away'? This text is clear. It is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance, and thus obtain eternal salvation, because they did sin against the Holy Spirit. They have lost it!

Heb 10:26-28: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

Here we see clearly that once we have accepted Jesus in our life, we just can't go on living as if He did not exist, and "deliberately keep on sinning". What would be the result if you did? Would you still obtain eternal salvation? The Bible says that these will have "a fearful expectation of judgment". There again, they have lost their salvation.

The apostle Paul confirms this in 1 Cor 15:1-2: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

In other words, if someone does not hold on firm to God's word, he/she has "believed in vain".

An example that one can loose his/her salvation is King Saul. He was chosen by God to be the first king of Israel. He was filled with God's Spirit at first (1 Samuel 10 6), but because of his pride and evil actions, never repenting from what he did wrong, eventually God's Spirit departed from him 1 Sam 16:14 "Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul…" NIV King Saul had been saved, but he lost his salvation due to his unrepentant heart. How sad!

These texts clearly contradict the theory of "Once saved, always saved". This theory is simply not Biblical. Will you trust in our Lord and give your life to Him? Don't spoil what blessings you have received from Him. Don't let yourself be dissuaded by the philosophies of our world. Only God can give you eternal salvation and will give you the strength to hold on till the end. All you need to do is trust in Him and accept Him fully in your life.
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Romans 8:38-39 - "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation [including our own sins], will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

If it were possible to lose our salvation, where does God draw the line?

What sin is "going too far"?

What sin was the cross too weak to deal with?

If David could commit contract murder and adultery and yet be referred to as one "after God's own heart", then what on earth do we have to do to "lose our salvation"?
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Messiah took care of all sin in one moment in time, past, present and future.

If all of your sins were taken to the cross, then that means, before you were born, everything you would do would be dealt with.

If you understand, on your own righteousness, that you are and always will be unworthy, and accept salvation, then that deals with all of that.

It does not give you a free pass to do anything without consequence, but it means you have passed from death unto life eternal and that is without repentance.

OSAS. Nothing we can do about it.

In the Hebrew, the sense of salvation of God is a continual, active and present tense.

It means you "were/are/will be" saved. it is past/present/future in it's manifestation.

It is as eternal as God, without beginning or end.

You just "jump in" the middle of the "salvation river".

Ain't that some good news or what?!
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
ARE FUTURE SINS AUTOMATICALLY FORGIVEN?

Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) hinges on the theory that all sin (past, present, and future) are auto-forgiven at the first moment of true saving faith. The Bible has a different story.


Matthew 6:14-15
14: For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(How can the Father not forgive your tresspasses, if they were already all forgiven -- past, present, and future?)


2 Corinthians 7:1
1: Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
(Speaking to the saved and washed, telling them to cleanse themselves of all filthiness. According to OSAS, they would have no filthiness to cleanse, because all sin -- past, present, and future -- is already forgiven, and hence, cleansed!)


Romans 3:24-25
24: Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(For the remission of sins that are past)


This last example is our final example, but can disprove the OSAS theory all by itself!

Matthew 18: 23. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


'Tis the truth: Your past sins can be brought back upon you.
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
John 10:28 “And I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.”

“Eternal” and “never perish” means than no genuine child of God can lose his salvation.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
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Notice it does not say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and over time you will be saved. To believe that we are saved over time, is to believe that works adds to salvation. But the Bible says all of our righteousness is but filthy rags to God. There is nothing, NO WORK good enough to add one ounce to our salvation.
Only the blood of Jesus. When we get saved, Jesus does not sprinkle a drop of blood on our sins and says to us that if we serve long enough He will cover the rest of our sins. What if we were to die before all our sins were covered? No my friend, when we get saved, we are saved indeed.
Jesus' blood is sufficient. Praise His Name!


Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Isn't that glorious?

God'll never mention any of your past iniquities again as you turn to Jesus Christ.

God not remembering our sins again is true under grace, the grace of God whereby we have that forgiveness of sins.


Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.


Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.


Isa 43:25 I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.


Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.


Mic 7:18 Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy.


Mic 7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.


Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.


Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
The security-in-sin teachers are spiritually dangerous people. Besides all of the other grievous declarations they make, some have also gone so far as to say that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven, even before they are committed. Perhaps they teach this way in an effort to safeguard their doctrine of eternal security while they continue to tickle ears.

I have heard at least one state that if it was possible for a Christian to lose his salvation, it could only occur through sin. Hence, by removing (in their minds) the only danger to eternal security, they have erected an imagined indestructible shield for its protection.

(Unfortunately, like many other Scriptural issues, the eternal security teachers are oblivious to the two other ways a Christian can lose his salvation besides through sin: [1] Denying Jesus through persecution and [2] Accepting a wrong plan of salvation.

Here are two specific examples of what we are dangerously being taught from eternal security teachers Charles Stanley and David Jeremiah respectively:

No matter what you do as a child of God, you are forgiven.

You say, “Murder?” Forgiven.
“Stealing?” Forgiven.
“Adultery?” Forgiven.
“Worshiping Idols?” Forgiven.

Do you realize that when God forgives you, he forgives your past, your present and your future sin? Some people struggle with that terribly. They think that God only forgives them of all the sin they committed until they were converted. I had a lady tell me one day, she said, “You know, I know my sins were forgiven when I accepted Christ, but I’ve done a lot of other sin. How am I forgiven for that?” Well, you were already forgiven.


If you are a Christian, try to put yourself in their shoes thinking that your future sins are already forgiven before you commit them. If you accepted that premise, then your spiritual guard is not only down it is gone. You won’t ever need to guard against personal sin and its defiling abilities since you are already forgiven. This would mean you will always remain spiritually pure, just as you were the day you were saved, even if you would turn to sexual immorality, drunkenness, theft, idolatry, lying, murder, etc. You would never have to confess those sins to God that you committed after conversion, repent of them, forgive others who sinned against you, etc. to be purified, forgiven and cleansed, since you were never contaminated by any sin after conversion. In contrast, the spiritual danger of failing to do these is clear to anyone who has read through the New Testament with spiritual ears to hear and eyes to see, yet is seemingly hidden from the security-in-sin teachers themselves.

Let me cite some of the reasons why Christians reject the above deplorable teaching as taught by Charles Stanley, David Jeremiah and many others.

The Scriptural Evidence
Please notice what Jesus said to the Christians, after his infinite death on the cross for every person’s sins:

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. (Rev 3:4)

Comment: All the other people in the church at Sardis did soil their spiritual clothes and were no longer worthy to walk with Jesus dressed in white. How did the majority, who were previously saved, get soiled? The answer is clear when you realize that sin can defile a Christian and even bring him to his spiritual death. That is why we have the following Scripture (among others):

... Do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (1 Tim 5:22)

Paul believed Timothy could become spiritually defiled again through sin and consequently told Timothy to keep himself pure. That would be meaningless, if Timothy would turn to sin and automatically be pre-forgiven. Paul (and others) were repeatedly teaching like this, even to the point of telling Christians they could die spiritually through sin and not inherit the kingdom of God:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live (Rom 8:13)

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)

At this point, I could stop this article, for it has already been proven that sin committed after conversion can defile a Christian, bring him to his spiritual death and cause him not to inherit the kingdom of God. All of that would be impossible if his future sins were already forgiven before they were committed, like these popular savage wolves in sheep’s clothing want us all to believe.

What the Bible teaches about past sins being forgiven at the point of repentance and a submissive faith in Jesus (Acts 20:21 cf. 26:20) is shown in the following Scripture:

But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. (2 Pet 1:9)

That Scripture was written about any person who had been saved, but since has forgotten he was cleansed from his past sin. Please note, a Christian at the point of salvation is cleansed from all his sins up to that moment—his past sins, according to Peter. Similarly, Paul stated below:

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins (Col 2:13)

All our sins were forgiven in a moment’s time when we got born again. If a Christian is afterwards deceived or yields to the devil’s temptations to sin, the following is given as a remedy:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

The Apostle John put himself in on that Scripture by using the plural pronoun we. In other words, if we don’t confess those sins to God, which are committed after conversion, then we won’t be purified from their effects. (Apparently, no person who believes what the security-in-sin teachers proclaim about this will confess his sins to God and renounce them to get purified, since he thinks they are already forgiven.)

He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy. (Prov 28:13)

There are other indications that a Christian’s future sins are not forgiven and that sin can spiritually defile a believer, even though Jesus died for all sins nearly 2000 years ago:

See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. (Heb 12:15)

Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. (2 Cor 7:1)

Also, notice the following Scripture which shows that the Apostle Paul knew of some who wandered away from a pure heart. In other words, sin can adversely affect a pure heart. This would be impossible if their future sins were already forgiven:

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Some have wandered away from these and turned to meaningless talk. (1 Tim 1:5,6)

As Christians, we are also to have a certain frame of mind, a certain type of hope that will purify:

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. (1 John 3:2,3)

Jesus taught openly that sin can drag any lustful person to hell:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Mat 5:28,29)

The Lord also stated the stipulation for a Christian to get his sins forgiven, that is, he must forgive others who sin against him. Such a teaching would be impossible if his future sins were all automatically forgiven even before they were committed. If that was true then there would be no conditions to get forgiven, unlike what Jesus stated:

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Mat 6:14,15)

Then the master called the servant in. “You wicked servant,” he said, “I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?” In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart. (Mat 18:32-35)

That is not all we read about a Christian’s sins getting forgiven. The prayer of faith can bring healing to the body, as well as forgiveness of sins:

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. (James 5:14,15)

Another deathblow to the lie that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven is the following passage:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (Heb 10:26, 27)

Clearly, Heb. 10:26,27 is referring to people who had been converted then decided to deliberately sin in a certain way. Instead of believing the ear-tickling deadly lies of our day, let’s all cleave to the message of the Bible. Among other things it will show us the following, which also would be impossible if a Christian’s future sins were already forgiven:

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. (2 Pet 3:14)

Being found spotless, blameless and at peace with God is not automatic. Christians under grace are to put forth every effort to remain in this condition:

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. (Luke 13:24)

Dear reader, don’t let yourself, family or friends be deceived by the eternal security teachers Scriptural distortions. Contend for the faith against their deadly teachings. Souls hang in the balance. God bless you.
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
(26-31) The danger of a willful rejection of Jesus’ perfect sacrifice for us.

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

a. For if we sin willfully: To sin willfully is defined in Hebrews 10:29. It speaks of someone who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace. It is a knowing, deliberate rejection of Jesus’ great work for us on the cross.

i. Sin willfully: In a sense, every sin is a “willful sin.” But here, the writer to the Hebrews speaks of something much more severe and relevant to these discouraged Jewish Christians who contemplated a retreat from a distinctive Christianity and a return to Judaism with its sacrificial system. This is turning your back on Jesus.

b. There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins: If Jesus’ sacrifice for sin is rejected, there remains no other sacrifice that can cleanse.

c. How much worse punishment: If someone does reject Jesus’ sacrifice, fearful judgment is certain, even more certain than it was under the Old Covenant.

d. When we sin willfully by rejecting Jesus’ work on the cross as sufficient, we have:

i. Trampled the Son of God underfoot: We have disgraced Him by rejecting His greatest work. We devalue Him by devaluing what He did.

ii. Counted the blood of the covenant . . . a common thing: We have considered that Jesus’ blood was of no greater importance than the countless animals that had been sacrificed under the Old Covenant.

iii. Insulted the Spirit of grace: We offend the Holy Spirit, whose purpose it is to present Jesus and His work to us (John 16:8-15) when we reject Jesus and His finished work on our behalf. When we reject God’s free gift of grace and seek to be justified by law.

e. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God: It is fearful indeed to one-day face the God you have rejected and offended so greatly!


When we sin willfully by rejecting Jesus’ work on the cross as sufficient, we have:

i. Trampled the Son of God underfoot: We have disgraced Him by rejecting His greatest work. We devalue Him by devaluing what He did for us on the cross!

Please stop with the twisted scriptures
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo, do you know where to find the example of trampling the blood underfoot in the Old Testament?
 

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Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
So what some of you is saying if you sit around and think of sinning and later carry this sin out you are already forgiven; because God has forgiven you of all your sins past, present, and future. Please tell me where this verse is in God's Word!!!

Because if that's the case why would He let His only begotten Son died such a horrible death. Why would God let His only begotten Son go through the agony of being spit in the face, whipped with many stripes that took out peices of meat from His already tired body from carrying a cross. They mocked Him, humiliated Him and so on; a man who had no sins went through all of this for us who had many sins, for us to contiually keep on sinning after we say we are saved. GOD FORBID!!!

Furthermore, the Law sentenced those that sinned to death sometimes right on the spot. Some would be taken on the outside of town and stoned. They Law never gave them a chance to repent nor change their ways the Law just did away with those who sinned and disobeyed.

Jesus said He did not come to CHANGE THE LAW BUT TO FULFILLED THAT WHICH WAS WRITTEN IN THE LAW.

Where the Law condemns you for your sins.
I (Jesus)who brings Grace and Mercy can forgive you of your sins.

Where the Law gives only death for your sins.
I (Jesus)who brings Grace and Mercy forgives and give you life even after death. For I can give you eternal life I give life abundantly.

Where the Law cannot help you.
I (Jesus) who brings Grace and Mercy am your very present help in the time of trouble.

By the Law all who sinned was put to death on the spot for their sins. Some was taking outside of town and stoned others were slaughtered with their families for their sins. There was no repentance, nor forgiveness for their sins by the Law.


As far as David and some of the other Patriots of the Old Testament "The Gift of Salvation" did not exist until after the death of Christ.
That is why scripture tells us how Jesus visited hell and set the captives free that were bound even there. He preached the Word to them and gave them a true chance for repentance and to be saved.

Read deeply in the scriptures even this too is gospel. Even though David hadn't receive the "Gift of Salvation" during the era he was in. He was a man after God's own heart because He beleived and knew God was God; and David was a War Warrior that had a heart of true repentance.

Romans 6:14 says;
Our sins were forgiven on the grounds that we have died to sin.

{WHERE A SINFUL NATURE REMAINS SIN WILL CONTINUALLY MANIFEST TISELF.}

But we who are saved by God's Grace whose sins were forgiven on the grounds that we have died to sin been buried by water baptisim for the remission of our sins through the blood of Jesus Christ shall sin no more.

UNLESS WE TRAMPLE ALL THIS UNDER FOOT, there is no room for the dominion of sin.

It has neither right nor power for we are not under the law-A dispensation (divine revelation in testing for man's obedience to God).
A dispensation of terror and bondage which only shows sin, WITHOUT enabling you to conquer it. (We had no power to help us fight sin under the Law)

Not saying that the Law was not true or good but man could not keep the Law by himself.

But through God's Holy Spirit those who have repented and are now saved live under Grace under the merciful dispensation (still a divine revelation testing man's obedience to God) of the gospel of God's Word.

Which brings complete victory over sin to everyone who is under the powerful influences of the Holy Spirit of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

Jesus said in Acts 1:8;
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.

Now my question is this;
If one who is born again and say they are saved will you keep sinning I am not talking about one sin or two sins. I am talking about continuous sin just because you think you will keep on being forgiven.

If so then you have no power for if the Holy Spirit truly dwells in you then sin has no power no dominion over you.

In other words it will come up for temptations will always be around us but we don't have to carry it out!

No debate here just facts!

Love and Peace to All And God still gets the Glory
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Psalm 19:13
Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

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Kindgo, Carol, WildB, Grams.... all your beliefs are built on the idea that Salvation is instant and not progressive....

you need to study more closely the scripture....the scriptures do not teach instant salvation but a progressive salvation....

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quote:

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So what some of you is saying if you sit around and think of sinning and later carry this sin out you are already forgiven; because God has forgiven you of all your sins past, present, and future.

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quote:

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Well if that's the case why would He let His only begotten Son died such a horrible death. Why would God let His only begotten Son go through the agony of being spit in the face, whipped with many stripes that took out peices of meat from His already tired body from carrying a cross. They mocked Him, humiliated Him and so on; a man who had no sins went through all of this for us who had many sins, for us to contiually keep on sinning after we say we are saved. GOD FORBID!!!!!

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If we were able to live perfect sinless lives, then our Lord Jesus Christ would not have needed to die for us. He fullfilled the Law by living a perfect life, something we could never do. And...

2 Cor. 5:21 (RV)—“Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”

Our Justification Is By the Blood of Jesus Christ

Rom. 3:24—“Being justified… through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”

5:9—“Much more then, being now justified by his blood.”

The sacrifices of the Old Testament were more than a meaningless butchery—“Without shedding of blood is no remission” of sin (Heb. 9:22). The great sacrifice of the New Testament, the death of Jesus Christ, was something more than the death of a martyr—men are “justified by his blood” (Rom. 5:9).

In justification all our sins are forgiven, and the guilt and punishment thereof removed (Acts 13:38, 39; Rom. 8:1). God sees the believer as without sin and guilt in Christ (Num. 23:21; Rom. 8:33, 34).

There is also the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ to the sinner. His righteousness is “unto all and upon all them that believe” (Rom. 3:22). See Rom. 5:17-21; 1 Cor. 1:30. For illustration, see Philemon 18.

Are we saved to be later rejected by the omniscient God who knew everything about our past, present, and future when He saved us? No.

Are we saved to do whatever we want? No.

We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We are saved for the purpose of bearing fruit for the Lord.

Ephesians 2:10 (ESV)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
I have to admit that the view that I once held as salvation being a one-time event(upon initial confession of faith in Jesus) has been shaken.

Paul oftentimes uses the words "having been saved", but Jesus frequents the use of the words "will be saved". This sure makes things confusing if you ask me.

Even with all the confusion I believe that I have finally come to a conclusion which is scripturally sound....that is that no matter what doctrine we decide to hold to ..... that there will be for each and every one of us a "real" test of our faith over time, of which comes only in the face of the "real" adversary. But if there is no resistance, then one would have to question whether or not one is "really" in the faith.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Pro 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son [in whom] he delighteth.
Hbr 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

One way to judge your own salvation is this: When you sin if you do not seek forgiveness if God does not correct you, you should wonder about your salvation. God will correct His children when they misbehave. If you live continuously in a sinful lifestyle, and you are God's child, he will punish you. You can reach a point that you have committed the sin unto death. At this point, if you refuse God's correction, you can cause your life to be shorten. How shameful, would it be to face God and have Him tell us that because we were so stubborn, that He had to take us out of this life early.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Betty Louise

The only sin God will not forgive, the unpardonable sin, is to reject Jesus Christ.

Each of us is controlled either by light or darkness. The frightening thing is that some people have so hardened themselves against the Lord that they cannot tell the difference! They think they are following the light when, in reality, they are following the darkness. The scribes and Pharisees claimed to “see the light” as they studied the Law, but they were living in the darkness (see John 12:35-50).
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
The "Once Saved Always" crowd have embraced Satan's lie...and teaching it as truth

“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. (Gen 3:4)

the person that is not continually calling on the mercies of Yahweh, continually recognizing the daily need for forgiveness, are resting not in Yahshua but in their own self deluded righteousness.

There are many death blows to eternal security found in Scripture. At the very core of this non-Christian doctrine is the concept that a person once saved (a righteous person) will not die spiritually over his sin. The clarity of the Scriptures to the contrary is overwhelming from Genesis through Revelation starting with the first time God ever spoke to Adam, which was his only commandment for him to observe and the consequence of disobedience:

And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die” (Gen 2:16,17)

Adam was righteous and resided in the garden of Eden, a paradise garden only for the righteous. He was expelled from it after he sinned and died, as warned. Adam died spiritually the same day he sinned, yet lived physically many years afterwards to be 930 years old (Gen. 5:5). As God’s first statement about sin was issued to a righteous man concerning his own spiritual death through sin, the devil’s first lie was devised to make Eve dismiss this eternal truth, which led to her disobedience and spiritual death. Please note that Eve never sinned until she was deceived into thinking that sin would not bring about her own spiritual death. Furthermore, the doctrine of eternal security is identical to the devil’s first lie, that is, the righteous will not die spiritually through sin:

“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. (Gen 3:4)

This same consequence of disobedience for the righteous is repeated later by the prophet Ezekiel:

Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. (Ezek 3:20)

But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezek 18:24)

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)

If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)

If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. (Ezek 33:18)

Clearly, a righteous person can die spiritually because of his sin, which again is the antithesis of the teaching of eternal security.

New Testament warnings to the righteous about them dying through sin are repeated, especially by Paul and James. The familiarity between these and the Gen. 2:17 and Ezekiel passages is evident:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)

Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)

Those Scriptures are written to the saints at Rome, who were righteous:

To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. (Rom. 1:7,8)

By the way, if the reader would compare Rom. 8:13 to Gal. 5:19-21 and 6:8,9, where Paul wrote the same truth three different ways, it becomes unmistakable that he was referring to the spiritual death of the righteous (not physical death) for those who live according to the sinful nature because he compared you will die in Rom. 8:13 to not inherit the kingdom of God in Gal. 5:19-21 and reap destruction instead of reap eternal life in Gal. 6:8,9. Apparently Paul repeatedly warned Christians of this possibility, unlike our dark day which denies these same eternal truths. Especially focus on Gal. 5:21.

James describes the sinning process, which leads to the spiritual death of the righteous:

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

As already shown this sinning process to spiritual death dates back to the Garden of Eden, then to Ezekiel, then to Paul the grace teacher. James elaborated upon this eternal truth at the very end of his own epistle:

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover over a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20, NASB)

Notice how straying from the truth (a name for Jesus in John 14:6) is to jeopardize the soul of the righteous person to (eternal) death. But if that same person is brought back where he was before he strayed, his soul will once again be safe (or saved) in the truth. Also shown here is the truth that a saved person can become a sinner again, by straying from the truth.
How the Righteous Can Prevent Their Own Spiritual Death
The Lord Himself taught how the righteous can prevent their own spiritual death:

I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death. (John 8:51)

Clearly, the Lord was not talking about physical death, since many righteous people remained faithful to the very end, such as the Apostle Paul did, yet died physically. Again, since Paul died physically, Jesus couldn’t have been referring to physical death. Hence, the Lord gave the preventative to spiritual death as being simply to keep his word or continue to obey to the end.

Jesus restated the same eternal safeguard for spiritual death in different words when he spoke the following:

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25,26)

The word translated “believes” in v. 26 is a continuous tense in the Greek. Jesus declared that the righteous would never die spiritually as long as they maintained this type of belief, which is shown elsewhere as being a trusting, submitting, obeying faith which produces good fruit and holy behavior. In other words, the Lord was saying in John 11 that a righteous person would have to continue to believe so he would not die spiritually, which does not always happen. The Lord taught elsewhere that it is possible for a believer to become an unbeliever, at which point he would fall away as a result:

Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. (Luke 8:13)

That was the Lord’s own interpretation of the following verse:

Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. (Luke 8:6)

To save their doctrine, the eternal security teachers (the Scripture distorters) sometimes amazingly argue that the people of Luke 8:13 only had a spurious or false faith, but that is not the text speaking—just their own faulty theology. Not only does Lk. 8:13 say such people did believe for a while, it also states that they receive the word with joy. Real, genuine plant life, likened unto spiritual life, sprung up from the word of God, which was received with joy. The problem is such don’t continue with God because they fail the test of persecution for godly living.
They Received the Word
To receive the word as in Luke 8:13 is the same description of what happened to Cornelius and his household who experienced true salvation. Just before Peter retold what happened with them we read:

The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. (Acts 11:1)

Similar to that are two additional Scriptures which refer to others who likewise received the word of God. According to the context, such describes that they got saved after receiving the word of God:

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: (Acts 8:12-14, KJV)

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. (Acts 17:11,12, KJV) Please note that the same Greek word translated received in Luke 8:13 is also found in Acts 8:14; 11:1 and 17:11. Luke 8:13 is referring to people who had experienced true salvation, just like these other Scriptures do because such people received the word. Yet the Luke 8:13 passage states they ceased believing.

Getting back to John 8:51 and 11:25,26, the Lord shared the same facts as stated there in yet a different Scripture, also from John:

I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:47-51)

Please note the word believes in v. 47 is also a continuous tense in the Greek. Believing in Jesus is compared to eating the bread of life, which will prevent spiritual death, and enable one to live forever. We eat this bread by continuing or maintaining our submissive faith in Jesus, that same truth as shown at John 11:25, 26. When one continues to believe he will keep God’s word, the preventative for the righteous dying spiritually, as stated in John 8:51.

At another time, the Lord spoke to those on the very edge of spiritual death in Rev. 3:2:

Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.

Please note it was the personal responsibility of the ones about to die to strengthen themselves spiritually. God was not going to do it for them, even though it was His will for them to be strengthened. The spiritual negligence and sloth of the righteous can be fatal.
Be Faithful, Even to the Point of Death
The Rev. 3:2 passage is similar to the warning given by the Lord in the preceding chapter to faithful Christians:

Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. (Rev 2:10,11)

Certainly, spiritual death is implied since the faithful Christians at Smyrna were warned by Jesus to continue being faithful to the point of physical death (to overcome), so that they would not be hurt at all by the second death. The second death is another name for the lake of fire (Rev. 20:14; 21:8).

So what happens to a person with spiritual life (a Christian) who is not faithful to the end of his life? He will die spiritually. This possibility of the righteous dying spiritually is reiterated yet another time by the Lord himself, yet ends joyfully because he repents and returns to salvation:

For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. So they began to celebrate. (Luke 15:24)

But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. (Luke 15:32)

Please note that the prodigal was spiritually dead and spiritually lost at the same point in time, that is when he was in sexual immorality and wild living. After he repented he became alive again. Those words are very important. It says again. That means he had spiritual life before he left the Father to indulge in wild living and sexual immorality. He got that same spiritual life back again when he repented and returned to serve the Father. In other words, he was righteous yet died spiritually through sin (became lost) and later became spiritually alive again when he turned from his wickedness to serve God. (This is Jesus’ teaching not some cultist or so-called works salvation person.) Hence, as Jesus taught elsewhere that one passes from spiritual death to spiritual life at the point of getting born again, He also taught the same person can pass back from spiritual life to spiritual death through sin, as happened to the prodigal.

This same truth about spiritual death for the righteous is echoed by the Apostle John in his first epistle:

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. (1 John 5:16)

John wrote about the spiritual death of the righteous here. He stated that sin would bring that about as happened to Adam, as well as the prodigal. Another definite example of a righteous man dying, but not physically, was King David when he turned to do evil. Ezekiel warned such a righteous person will die, yet David continued to live physically as did Adam and the prodigal. These facts, of course, are all opposed by the eternal security teachers who want us to believe the devil’s teaching, as stated in Gen. 3:4. They agree with the devil and try to confuse the issue by saying the death of 1 John 5:16 is physical death, with Ananias and Sapphira being examples. In other words, they believe God in his wrath over their sin of lying to the Holy Spirit struck them dead in their unrepentant wickedness and rewarded them by taking them quicker into His paradise kingdom, which is reserved only for the holy and pure of heart. By teaching like this the eternal security teachers not only proclaim a license for immorality, but also contradict yet another Scripture, which shows that all liars will go to the lake of fire:

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

For some reason the eternal security teachers seem oblivious to Scriptures which show that God does sometimes strike the wicked (or unsaved) physically dead for their sin:

But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the LORD put him to death. (Gen 38:7)

Those Widows Died Spiritually
Last but not least, let’s not forget the widows of 1 Tim. 5:6, which Paul wrote of:

But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.

Immediately afterwards, he refers to some widows that turned from their dedication to Christ (v. 11) to follow Satan (v. 15). Notice: those widows Paul knew didn’t die physically, yet were dead (spiritually) because of their sins. This passage doesn’t refer to those never saved, as we may assume could be the case in Lk. 9:60 and Mt. 8:22, but instead to those who were once alive spiritually like the prodigal, because they previously had a dedication to Christ and later turned away from it.

Green renders 1 Tim. 5:6, as follows:

But she who lives in self-pleasure has died while living.

Dear reader, don’t be deceived by those parroting the devil’s first lie to our generation, the eternal security teachers. The Bible is clear that the righteous will die spiritually, if they turn to do evil, as Adam, King David, the prodigal and the widows of 1 Tim. 5:6 did, which is also the clear teaching of Ezekiel. If you are a real Christian, you must faithfully follow Jesus and endure persecution for living godly to the end of your life to enter God’s kingdom. Don’t be deceived by the false teachers who want to convince you otherwise.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
The belief that we control our own salvation is a sin of pride. We cannot save ourselves nor can we maintain our salvation. When someone says that Jesus saves our past, present, and future sins, they are speaking the truth. In the sense that Bible says the He knew us even before we were born.
God knows everything. He knew what sins we would commit before we were born. So in a sense He died for our sins before we were born. This does not mean we do not have to ask forgiveness. But, nothing we do is a shock to God.
God does not save us and then removes salvation from us. We will be judged for unrepentant sins whether on this earth or in Heaven.

Where the mistake comes in, is that people think that OSAS believes one can walk down the aisle get "saved" and live like the devil the rest of your life and be saved. If you do not have any fruit of the Spirit in your life, you are not saved. True salvation brings about change. It is not a question of whether salvation can be lost, but more of a question of whether salvation was real in the first place. Crying tears over being caught in sin is often not from a repentant heart but of shame of being caught.
If you do not bear fruit and if sin in your life does not grieve you, you may not be saved in the first place. The Bible says that the Sheep know the voice of God. If a person is not a Sheep, he is a goat. A Christian should seek forgiveness every day, not because God is standing over us taking salvation back every time we sin but because our sins should grieve us just as much as they do God. Just think of it this way, every time your mate says unkind thing, reacts in an unkind way, you do not divorce them, but you do appreciate them apologizing for their actions.
If a car pulls out in front of you on the freeway and a bad word comes out of your mouth, God does not yank the blood of Jesus off you and say: "Sorry Charlie, your salvation is lost". His blood is sufficient for our sins. The difference in a saved person who sins, is a saved person is grieved by their sins and if they don't repent, God will punish them until they repent. A sinner can sin day after day and feel not guilt.
If your the devil's child he doesn't care if you sin.
It is not a question of whether you are in danger of losing your salvation, but a question if you as a child of God are seeking to walk with God and live for Him in a way that is pleasing to Him.
Salvation is not a free ticket to sin, but a freedom to live for Christ, knowing we are safe and secure in Christ.

betty
 

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Since a person is never completely free of sin, it is sometimes difficult to accept the fact that forgiveness is whole and permanent.

Once a person has accepted Christ, the devil can do nothing except to make him doubt or feel unworthy.

Satan knows that if he can cause doubt to spring up in the life of a believer, he can rob that believer of the joys of being a Christ-follower.

The best and most sure way to know that you are saved is the simple phrase: Because the Bible says so!

If you have come to the Lord in repentance of your sin and asked Him to be Lord of your life, then you are saved.

1 John 1:9 promises, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

God loves you so much that He gave the life of His only Son to pay for your sins.

Do you think that God would do that, and then not keep His promise?

If you are still in doubt, please contact a trusted pastor who can help you through this. God bless you as you diligently seek Him!
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
The people who are opposed to OSAS always say the same thing over and over and over...

"If you live a life of sin and unbelief then you will not be saved."

Well shucks folks, we know that already.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Some people think OSAS is a license to sin.

As Paul said: Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


OSAS is not about freedom to sin, but freedom to live a Christian life without fear that God is going to drop you out of His hands.
betty
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. (Gen 3:4)

Satan loves it, you OSAS teachers keep telling people that, you will help him fill up hell with that lie....

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The belief that we control our own salvation is a sin of pride.

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you want come out and say it because it is forbidden on the board but what you are teaching is pure Calvinism....

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The people described are not backsliders but apostates.

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Carol,
You said in a previous post that the words "falling away" are found only once in the NT. That is true......but the words "fall away" are found in Hebrews6:6.

You also stated that the falling away spoken of in Thessalonians in only concerning the anti-christ. I do not believe that to be the case. My bible makes a reference to 1 Tim 4:1 from Thessalonians "unless the falling away comes first".

1 Tim 4:1 Now the spirit expressly says that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.

The above verse does not appear to be concerning only the anti-christ in that it says SOME will depart from the faith.

Do you still not believe that it is possible to fall away? or do you just believe that it isnt possible for you?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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or do you just believe that it isnt possible for you?

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Originally posted by yahsway:
WildB, you left something out of the verse you wrote in Matt 18:6

"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me TO SIN, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

in verses 6-9 Jesus proclaims the severe consequences of causing another or oneself(8,9) TO SIN (become apostate)

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Carol and Betty,
We are really moving towards another topic of discussion that I had previously posted. Is discipleship an option? Can we say that we are saved, but never respond to the call of discipleship whereby we are called to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Jesus? If Jesus states "If ye continue in my Word, then are ye my disciples indeed"......that sure seems to indicate that sanctification is not an automatic thing. In other words, is it a requirement for salvation that we accept Jesus as Lord of our lives? Is that what we learn from the gospels? Is it enough to say all we need to do is accept Jesus as Savior? Is a decision to follow Jesus only icing on the cake?

Are these the minimum responses God is looking for?
1. a repentant heart which involves a change of mind about sin, and humbling ourselves by turning from a position of rebellion to God and turning to God and his will for our life.
2. faith in Jesus whereby we believe on Him as savior and accept His call to discipleship in a decision to follow Him as Lord.

What do you think?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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