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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Was Judas ever saved?
Did he backslide?
Did he go to hell?

Scripture says "Satan entered into Judas":
Luke 22:3 "Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve."
John 13:27 "And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly."
John 13:2 says, "And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him."

Jesus called Judas a devil:
John 6:70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? "

Yet Scripture refers to Judas as "one of his disciples" (John 12:4 and Luke 6:13, 16), and "one of the twelve" (Luke 22:47; John 6:41)

Judas saw the miracles (Luke 6); he attended prayer meetings of Jesus with his other disciples (John 18:2). He had a "ministry" (Acts 1:17) and place of responsibility among the believers (John 13:29). He was trusted by the other believers - enough to carry the bag of money (John 13:29).

Apparently Judas thought - or at least attempted to appear - that he was a believer ("manifest thyself unto us"), as opposed to being one of those in the world:
John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"

Notice what Acts 1 says about Judas - that "he was numbered among us" (v. 17, i.e., was a disciple) - that Judas' fall was prophesied in the Old Testament (v. 16) - and that he had had a "ministry" (v. 17) and was to be replaced (Acts 1:20):
Acts 1:16 "Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesu"
Acts 1:17 "For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry."

Further note how Acts says Judas fell by SIN (he was not FORCED by Satan, who had entered into him; he was personally ACCOUNTABLE for his actions):
Act 1:25 "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."


Jesus said it would have been "better for this man" (Judas) had he "never been born" (Mark 14:21).

What really amazes me is that Judas was entrusted with responsibility (handling the money) EVEN THOUGH "Jesus KNEW from the beginning.... who should betray him" (John 6:64). God ALLOWS deceivers and thieves among his people, even to be "numbered with" or considered one of us. And remember, Jesus CHOSE Judas to be one of "the Twelve"!

KNOWING that Judas was the one who would betray him, Jesus LET HIM CONTINUE with the others, learning where they hung out, etc. (John 18:2, "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place for Jesus oftimes resorted thither with his disciples.") That's how Judas "knew the place" where to tell the soldiers to find Jesus, in his betrayal (Mat 26:47):
John 18:2 "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples."

Judas was suspicious of his own spiritual condition - it says he even asked Jesus if he was the one who would betray him:
Mat 26:25 "Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said."

Afterwards, it says Judas recognized "he was condemned" - and even tried to return the 30 pieces of silver. Scripture records his words to those who had hired him - "I have sinned."
Mat 27:3 "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,"
Mat 27:4 "Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood..."

Judas' downfall was money - the "thirty pieces of silver" - ironically, the very ministry with which he was entrusted.

Regarding the state of Judas' soul:

During the time he seemed to be following Jesus, except that when the woman anointed Jesus with expensive perfume (John 12), Judas was outraged, saying the money should have been given to the poor. It says, "He did not say this because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put in it." (vs.6)

John 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
John 12:4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], which should betray him,
John 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
John 12:7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
John 12:8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
 
Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Judas was never a believer and therefore never saved. Jesus addressed a group that was following Him and said, "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him." (John 6:64).

Then, addressing the 12 disciples Jesus said, "'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him" (John 6:70-71).

Jesus knew He had to go to the cross and chose Judas as a disciple because He knew that he would betray Him.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo Yahshua / Jesus said Judas was an Apostle, not me...

OSAS is a lie from the pit of hell...may Yahweh have mercy on you and other for teaching it.

OSAS can only be true if Judas can be proved not be an Apostle...

Eternal security proponents face many difficult passages of Scripture, that is, difficult for them because they clearly contradict their treasured and beloved doctrine. The contradictions from Scripture concerning their teaching exist either by specific example or simple declaration pertaining to this subject.

Regarding examples that contradict eternal security, perhaps the Apostle Judas Iscariot is most difficult for them. It seems that the facts revolving around this apostle must be distorted, twisted, read into and/or overlooked to maintain their erroneous view of the believer's security. Even illogical statements and Scripturally unsubstantiated statements surface to reconcile events in his life to eternal security!

It is obvious that the Apostle Judas Iscariot went to Hell after betraying Jesus and committing suicide: "Woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born" (Mark 14:21). Because of this fact, the eternal security proponents are left with no alternative but to dogmatically insist that Judas was never really saved to begin with or forfeit their belief in eternal security, something which few of them seem to be willing to do.

John MacArthur, Jr. is no exception to this! Though he has many fine teaching cassettes and books available, when it comes to the subject of eternal security, even when it is not directly the issue, he becomes Scripturally unsound and illogical, like Charles Stanley and other perpetuators of this teaching.

The following are excerpts from MacArthur's book, The Gospel According To Jesus (1989) regarding Judas from his eternal security perspective:

"Judas is a prime example of a professing believer who fell into absolute apostasy. For three years he followed the Lord with the other disciples. He appeared to be one of them. Presumably he thought of himself as a believer, at least at the outset. It is doubtful that he joined Christ's band with the intention of turning against him. Somewhere along the line he became greedy, but that could hardly have been his motive in the beginning; Jesus and the disciples never had anything of material value (Matthew 8:20). Apparently Judas initially shared the hope of Christ's kingdom, and he likely believed that Jesus was the Messiah. After all, he also had left everything to follow the Lord. In modern terminology, he had 'accepted' Jesus ...."

"Yet, while the others were growing into apostles, Judas was quietly becoming a vile, calculating tool of Satan. Whatever his character seemed to be at the beginning, his faith was not real (John 13:10-11). He was unregenerated, and his heart gradually hardened so that he became the treacherous man who sold the Savior for a fistful of coins. In the end, he was so prepared to do Satan's bidding that the devil himself possessed Judas (John 13:27)" (p.99, emphasis ours).

In his first aforementioned paragraph, MacArthur mentions twice that Judas "followed the Lord"! In the latter of these two, he elaborates by saying of Judas, "He had left everything to follow the Lord." Yet, later in this same article, he states, "Judas illustrates false discipleship" (p.104)! This is illogical! A false disciple cannot be one who has "left everything to follow the Lord"! According to Jesus, one must "give up everything he has" or he can't be His disciple (Lk. 14:33)! Certainly, Jesus wasn't speaking of false discipleship here.

Furthermore, as you can see, MacArthur has Judas "join[ing] Christ's band," as if it already existed before he came on the scene! In contrast, the Biblical account states the following:

"When morning came, he called HIS DISCIPLES to him and chose twelve of them whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor" (Lk. 6:13-16).

Please note: the first time we hear of Judas Iscariot, we are informed that he already was a "disciple." Furthermore, he was "called" and "chosen" by Christ Himself to be an "apostle" at the same time as the other twelve. See also Jn. 6:70. Judas did NOT just "join" Christ's band which already existed, as this eternal security teacher writes, for he was already part of that group!

MacArthur also erroneously has the Twelve, that is, minus Judas Iscariot, "growing into apostles" instead of instantly being made "apostles" by Christ Himself! Judas too was of this group "chosen" over the other disciples that were present to be the Lord's apostle! This fact about instant apostleship is also shown elsewhere in Scripture and confirmed by the origin of Paul's apostleship (Rom. 1:1). One NEVER "grow[s]" into an apostle, as MacArthur teaches!

Going back to the Scripture passage, please note that Judas "became" a traitor (Lk. 6:16). The word "became" for Judas suggests a change for the worse that occurred sometime after he was chosen as a disciple by Christ to be His apostle, or "special messenger," as that word means. In other words, Judas went from "disciple" to "apostle" to "traitor." Or we might say he was once a "disciple" of the Lord's elevated to apostle, who later "became a traitor," as Scripture words it. Either way, the spiritual condition of this apostle regressed to the place where he betrayed Christ, committed suicide (self-murder) and then went to Hell! What an awesome thing to contemplate!

Also, remember this about Judas: he was sent forth to preach, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those having leprosy and to drive out demons (Matt. 10:6-8)! Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons! For a person to indirectly say that Judas was never saved is to say that Jesus chose Judas, who was unholy, to be his holy representative! [Please see our article, "He was never really saved to begin with."]

Moreover, Jesus quotes from Ps. 41 and attributes it to Judas in Jn. 13:18b. That full verse from Ps. 41 is: "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me," v.9. Please note that Judas was once Jesus' "close friend whom I [Jesus] trusted"! Since Jesus "knew what was in a man" (Jn. 2:25), that is, in his heart, how then could Jesus trust Judas in the early days of their companionship if Judas was never saved? Also, Ps. 41:9 states that Judas was Jesus' "close friend" at that same time. Could that be possible if he was never saved?

MacArthur also made the statement, "his faith was not real" in reference to Judas based on Jn. 13:10,11 where we read, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you. For he knew who was going to betray him and that was why he said not every one was clean." MacArthur "reads into" those verses as he wears his eternal security glasses and sees that Judas was not "clean" in contrast to the other disciples. But does this say that Judas was never "clean"? It merely says, at that point in time, Judas wasn't "clean" then! Remember, he was a disciple in the beginning, chosen to be an apostle, so he must have been "clean" at the beginning! Hence, MacArthur tries to make Jn. 13:10,11 say that Judas didn't have "real" faith -- without a solid Scriptural basis!

Other eternal security proponents say Judas was called a "devil" (Jn. 6:70), a "thief" (Jn. 12:6), and "Satan entered into him" (Jn. 13:27), how then could he have been saved? Such overlook the truth that one's spiritual condition can CHANGE from righteous to evil as exemplified with Demas, the Prodigal Son and Solomon.

Some have also confused the truth stated in Jn. 6:64 to mean Judas never believed even from the beginning. However, it doesn't say that at all! The verses read, "'Yet there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them (plural) did not believe and who (singular) would betray him." Notice there are TWO groups referred to here. This is evident in the Greek. One is plural in tense that didn't believe from the beginning and the other is singular in tense referring to Judas who would betray him! The Wuest translation renders Jn. 6:64 as follows: "But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus knew from the beginning who THEY WERE who were not believing, and who the ONE WAS who was betraying him." (For other eternal security arguments about Judas and their refutations, please consult pages 32-34 in my first book, The Believer's Security: Conditional or Unconditional?) or see our what's new page for information on my new 801 page book entitled, The Believer's Conditional Security.

Eternal security proponents are obviously so accustomed to hearing illogical argumentation such as these to support their doctrine, they seem to be desensitized as to how absurd it is to be taught that one of the original Twelve apostles, "chosen" by Christ Himself, was never really saved, as must be asserted! If not, eternal security would be logically refuted! This apparent absurdity might be why the teachers of such almost never refer to Judas by his church title -- "Apostle," the highest office in the New Testament church (1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11)! Can you remember the last time you heard an eternal security teacher refer to the Lord's betrayer as "the Apostle Judas" or "the Apostle Judas Iscariot" who became a traitor?

Again, to maintain a belief in their doctrine, the eternal security proponents shockingly believe the Apostle Judas Iscariot was never saved! Wow!

How sobering it should be for all to ponder what happened to the Apostle Judas in the New Testament and Solomon, the builder of the Temple, in the Old Testament, that is, how their righteous and pure hearts became evil and corrupted over the course of time. This intense spiritual warfare, which we are now fighting, has destroyed many that were saved at one time, according to Scripture.

Reader, be on your guard against the devil's various efforts to plunge even YOU into ruin and destruction. Paul wrote:

"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore, put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the FLAMING ARROWS OF THE EVIL ONE. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Eph. 6:10-18).

To adopt the eternal security understanding that the Apostle Judas was never saved is to do away with his fall from such a high spiritual position, which is also a prime indicator of our intense, spiritual warfare and its casualties! Our spiritual war will never end for us, that is, until we die physically or get caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Considering this, Jesus both advises and at the same time declares the sad future for many who know Heaven is a reality, "Be endeavoring with a strenuous zeal to enter through the narrow door, because many, I am saying to you, will seek to enter and will NOT be able" (Lk. 13:24, Wuest).

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The True Plan of Salvation

The true plan of salvation is repentance towards God and faith in Christ Jesus (Acts 20:21). We prove our repentance by our deeds (Acts 26:20). The Lord Jesus taught the road to life is "hard" and only a "few" will find it (Mt. 7:13,14, NKJV). Many get saved, but afterwards fall away (Lk. 8:13; Jn. 6:66; 1 Tim. 1:19; etc.). In other words, after initial salvation we must endure to the "end" to enter the kingdom of God and escape the lake of fire (Mt. 10:22; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:10,11). Eternal life comes to the repentant the moment such believe on Jesus for salvation (Jn. 3:16; 6:47; 1 Jn. 5:12,13), but there is another important aspect of eternal life that many are totally unware of in our day because of the false teaching of eternal security. According to true grace teaching, eternal life is also a HOPE (Titus 3:7), yet to be REAPED (Gal. 6:8,9) in the AGE TO COME (Mk. 10:30) for only the ones who PERSIST IN DOING GOOD (Rom. 2:7) and DO NOT GROW WEARY AND GIVE UP (Gal. 6:9).

If a saved person sows to please his sinful nature he'll die spiritually (Rom. 8:13; Gal. 6:8,9). The prodigal is a clear example of this (Lk. 15:24,32). The end result of sin is spiritual death, so DO NOT BE DECEIVED (James 1:14-16). For more information regarding the believer's security, see our what's new page. Our 801 page book, The Believer's Conditional Security, is the most exhaustive and comprehensive refutation to eternal security ever written. It will not be refuted!

Because of the teaching of once saved always saved, grace has been taught as a license for immorality for so long, and without challenge, that when Scripture is quoted, such as 1 Cor. 6:9,10 or Rev. 21:8, it is disregarded, and the giver of God's Word is falsely accused of teaching legalism, bondage, works, etc. This reflects how truly dark are the days in which we live!

The ACID TEST question to know if a ministry or local congregation is teaching a license for immorality as condemned by Jude 3,4 is: Does true grace allow the sexually immoral in heaven? If their answer is "YES," avoid it like the AIDS virus! To sit under this teaching influence could mean that your soul and the souls of your loved ones will be eternally damned as a result. To support and promote such a ministry and teaching is to share in its wicked work (2 Jn. 9-11). This includes your financial donations! Flee from such a ministry or congregation and encourage others to do the same before it's eternally too late.
 
Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Judas was never saved...

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
[quote=article]In his first aforementioned paragraph, MacArthur mentions twice that Judas "followed the Lord"! In the latter of these two, he elaborates by saying of Judas, "He had left everything to follow the Lord." Yet, later in this same article, he states, "Judas illustrates false discipleship" (p.104)! This is illogical! A false disciple cannot be one who has "left everything to follow the Lord"! According to Jesus, one must "give up everything he has" or he can't be His disciple (Lk. 14:33)! Certainly, Jesus wasn't speaking of false discipleship here.[/quote]

What...A person cannot follow the Lord for the wrong reasons? Furthermore, don't people, every day, give up all they have for reasons other than "following Jesus Christ"?

What I find interesting is that Judas was not around when Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto the disciples:

quote:
Jhn 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
So Judas never received the Holy Spirit. Certainly no one could have received the Holy Spirit until an event occurred:

quote:
Jhn 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
And this glorification occurred after the Lord's prayer here:

quote:
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
This glorification occurred after Our Lord's death on the cross.

So the pattern is:

Jesus speaks of the Spirit that will not be given until He's glorified ->
Jesus prays about His glorification that would come after the cross ->
Judas betrays Jesus ->
Judas dies ->
Jesus is crucified ->
the Holy Spirit is given as a seal to the disciples by Jesus' breath ->
the Holy Spirit is given as a seal to all believers

quote:
Jhn 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
quote:
Eph 1:13 In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...
Aaron
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
You have answered your own question.

"Scripture says "Satan entered into Judas":"


Had he been SEALED with the Spirit this would be a imposible happening.

The Bible tells of unclean spirits returning to unsealed property.

Then he (the unclean spirit) saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished but NOT SEALED.

Ephesians 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
In spite of his affiliation with the band of disciples, and his association with Christ, Judas was not a true believer.


John 6:63 - 64 (NLT) 63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)


John 6:70 - 71 (NLT) 70 Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil.” 71 He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him.


John 13:10 - 11 (NLT) 10 Jesus replied, “A person who has bathed all over does not need to wash, except for the feet, to be entirely clean. And you disciples are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For Jesus knew who would betray him. That is what he meant when he said, “Not all of you are clean.”

John 13:18 (NLT) 18 “I am not saying these things to all of you; I know the ones I have chosen. But this fulfills the Scripture that says, ‘The one who eats my food has turned against me.’

John 17:12 (NLT) 12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction , as the Scriptures foretold.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
All you "Once Saved Always Saved" teachers do you think Yahshua understood His message?

Mathew 18...

23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


The Lord gives a fantastic illustration of forgiveness in Matthew 18. Peter asks if he should forgive his brother seven times if he sins against him (Matt 18:21). Since the rabbinical standard was three times, Peter was being quite generous. The Lord’s answer surely surprised the disciples. He said that we should forgive "seventy times seven." Actually the Greek literally says seventy-seven times (compare Gen 4:24), but either way the Lord’s point is that our forgiveness is to be unlimited.

The Lord Jesus then gives a parable to illustrate how we ought to forgive. A servant was forgiven an Enron-sized debt of more than $2 billion by his master (Matt 18:27). The master illustrates God who forgives us all our sins. Then that blessed man went out and demanded payment from a man who owed him a comparatively trifling sum of about $4,000. (Literally the debt was 600,000 times smaller!) When his debtor begged for time to pay, he showed no mercy and threw him in debtor’s prison till the debt was paid (Matt 18:28-30).

The man made a grave mistake. He should have gratefully forgiven his debtors as his lord had forgiven him. After all, any debt owed him was like pennies compared to the great debt his master had forgiven.

Christians sometimes forget that there are two aspects to the Lord’s forgiveness: positional and experiential (or fellowship). Both aspects are illustrated in the Matthew 18 parable.

When the master learned of this hypocrisy on his servant’s part, he had him incarcerated "until he should pay all that was due to him" (Matt 18:34). The conclusion is this, "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses" (Matt 18:35).2

If the man was already forgiven, how could his master hold him accountable for not forgiving others? The initial forgiveness illustrates the positional forgiveness every believer has in Christ. Many passages indicate that the moment we believe in Christ, we are totally forgiven in terms of our position as eternal children of God. "In Christ we have…the forgiveness of sins" (Col 1:14). "[He has] forgiven you all trespasses…having nailed [them] to the cross" (Col 2:13-14).

But positional forgiveness must not be understood to mean that we always are in fellowship with God. Forgiven people need forgiveness in order to remain in fellowship with God. One commentator beautifully expressed this truth: "An unforgiving spirit is sure to provoke the anger of God; so much so, that His free forgiveness of sinners ceases to flow to them, when in this way they offend. So to speak, it revives the guilt of their already forgiven sins" (Plummer, Matthew, p. 257).

If we fail to forgive those who commit offenses against us, we will fall out of fellowship with God and stand in need of His fellowship forgiveness (Matt 6:15; 18:35).

Of course, failing to forgive others is not the only sin that can interrupt our fellowship with God. First John 1:9 is a key progressive sanctification verse: "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Believers need to be honest with God concerning all sin in order to remain in fellowship with Him.

In the movie Love Story Ali McGraw told Ryan O’Neal that "Love means never having to say you’re sorry." That is a clever line in the movies, but it isn’t true. Confession and forgiveness are necessary if two people are to remain in fellowship with each other. Rejoice that positional forgiveness is total. God’s positional forgiveness covers all sins, past, present, and future. In the positional sense there is nothing a believer can ever do to lose God’s forgiveness.

Remember that fellowship forgiveness needs constant renewing. While all believers start the Christian life with fellowship forgiveness, they require it anew every time they are aware of new sin in their lives. Confession results in ongoing fellowship forgiveness.

Let your gratitude for God’s forgiveness motivate you to forgive others. It is hypocritical to receive enormous forgiveness from God and then refuse to extend forgiveness to others over comparatively minor matters. Grateful Christians should be forgiving people. It is noteworthy that many passages dealing with God’s forgiveness enjoin us to forgive others.3 And remember that at the Judgment Seat of Christ those who have been merciful to others will receive special mercy (Jas 2:13).


1 Luke 7:42, 43; 2 Cor 2:7, 10 (twice); 12:13; Eph 4:32 (twice); Col 2:13; 3:13 (twice).

2 F. F. Bruce writes, "If we find it difficult to accommodate v. 35 within our theological system, we should modify our system to make room for it rather than try to make v. 25 mean something different from what it says" (Matthew, p. 61).

3 See, for example, Eph 4:32 & Col 3:13.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Ecclesiastes 5:3

For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
wildb, calling me a fool does not change the scripture... anything can be taken out of context...

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Matthew 18... are you saying I can not forgive someone and still be "Eternally Saved"...

The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not void the war of the flesh and the spirit...

The New Creature still has a free will,,, the New Creature must chose every day to continue to take up the cross and follow the Holy Spirit...

if you think a Born Again soul can not follow the flesh you are all more illogical than I can conceive...

and the end conclusion of any soul following the flesh and not repenting is death...

that is what the scriptures teach!
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
*Sigh*

I thought we were discussing whether or not Judas was saved.

Aaron
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Only a fool would call his brother a fool.

1 Corinthians 1:27

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
quote:
*Sigh*

I thought we were discussing whether or not Judas was saved.

me too! let us continue I ask ?

Matthew 18... are you saying I can not forgive someone and still be "Eternally Saved"...

The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not void the war of the flesh and the spirit...

The New Creature still has a free will,,, the New Creature must chose every day to continue to take up the cross and follow the Holy Spirit...

if you think a Born Again soul can not follow the flesh you are all more illogical than I can conceive...

and the end conclusion of any soul following the flesh and not repenting is death...

that is what the scriptures teach!
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not void the war of the flesh and the spirit...

The New Creature still has a free will,,, the New Creature must chose every day to continue to take up the cross and follow the Holy Spirit...

if you think a Born Again soul can not follow the flesh you are all more illogical than I can conceive...

and the end conclusion of any soul following the flesh and not repenting is death...

that is what the scriptures teach!

Sorry, I wasn't very clear: there is another thread about salvation. I hoped that this thread would stay on the topic "Was Judas saved for eternal life or not?"

On its current track this thread will simply merge with the other one. I had hoped it would not.

Aaron
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Was Judas ever saved? Judas preached the gospel and Judas, along with the other 11 apostles, must have done miracles in the Name of Jesus, so that I would think that any reasonable person in the church would say that because Judas was an evangelist who preached the gospel, accompanied by miracles, any church person would say when meeting or hearing about such a person that that person is "definitely saved".

Matthew 10
1 And when He had called to Him his 12 disciples, He gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Luke 9
1 Then he called his 12 disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

I mean, if THAT is not a definition of what we call being saved, then what is?

The only thing is, that Judas, through the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches, Judas eventually LOST his salvation, just as the parable of the sower has taught us.

Matthew 13:22
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Luke 8
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luke 13
9 And if it bears fruit, well: but if not, then after that you shall cut it down.

John 15:6
If a man abides not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 15:2
Every branch in Me that bears not fruit He takes away: but every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

So, was Judas ever saved? Yes he was. But Judas did not abide in Jesus and went back to his old ways and so lost his salvation.

love, eden
"keep on believing and you shall be saved"
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
John 6:70 - 71 (NLT)

70 Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil .” 71 He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Apostle means one sent forth, while apostate means one going, or gone backward, as abandoning, forsaking one's profession of faith and practices.

Only a believer can ever rightly be labeled a backslider.

The world or unbeliever can't apostatize (fall away or go backwards), because an unbeliever has never believed unto salvation in Christ. They can't fall when they are already fallen. In order to fall you must have a position from which to fall.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
A apostate and backslider are two different animals and you yoking them together is not going to plow a even feral .

Stop your sillyness.
 
Posted by ANM (Member # 7184) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
wildb, calling me a fool does not change the scripture... anything can be taken out of context...

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Matthew 18... are you saying I can not forgive someone and still be "Eternally Saved"...

The sealing of the Holy Spirit does not void the war of the flesh and the spirit...

The New Creature still has a free will,,, the New Creature must chose every day to continue to take up the cross and follow the Holy Spirit...

if you think a Born Again soul can not follow the flesh you are all more illogical than I can conceive...

and the end conclusion of any soul following the flesh and not repenting is death...

that is what the scriptures teach!

Matthew 18... are you saying I can not forgive someone and still be "Eternally Saved"...

i WOULD AGREE WITH WBILL, Outer darkness and weeping and knashing of teeth does'nt mean hell to me, its a chastening in this life. And you folks sure don't take into account to often that Jesus was speaking pre-cross to jews under law most of the time, things have changed.
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:


So, was Judas ever saved? Yes he was. But Judas did not abide in Jesus and went back to his old ways and so lost his salvation.

Which is first: we abiding in Him or He in us?

Jhn 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

I say we have no idea how to abide in him unless He first abides in us.

"We love because He first loved us."

And, since He did not abide in men until after the Spirit was given (after his crucifixion) He did not abide in Judas and, consequently, neither did Judas abide in Him.

For Jesus spoke of the Spirit, in the future, abiding in men:

quote:
Jhn 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
Jhn 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

As for the displays of Jesus' power through the ones He sent... that alone is not evidence of one's salvation unto eternal life. Indeed one could argue (using the same logic) that Balaam's donkey was likewise "saved" because he spoke the word of the Lord.

No. The fact is this: you will go to Heaven if the Spirit of the Lord is in you. Period.

This part is interesting:

quote:
"..so that I would think that any reasonable person in the church would say that because Judas was an evangelist who preached the gospel, accompanied by miracles, any church person would say when meeting or hearing about such a person that that person is "definitely saved".
I have no doubt they would conclude such things. But a "church person" does not necessarily have the wisdom and revelation needed to properly discern this issue. Such inheritances are only for the sons of God, the people who possess the likeness and character of God in themselves, the people who have the Spirit of God in them.

Aaron
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Aaron. You wrote
quote:
And, since He did not abide in men until after the Spirit was given (after His crucifixion) He did not abide in Judas and, consequently, neither did Judas abide in Him.
Okay, but the power which the 12 apostles received is the same poweer that the apostles received at Pentecost:

Luke 9:1
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them who believe on His name.

Strong's Concordance

Luke 9:1 Then 1161 he called 4779 0 his 846 twelve 1427 disciples 3101 together 4779 , and 2532 gave 1325 them 846 power 1411 and authority 1849 over 1909 all 3956 devils 1140, and 2532 to cure 2323 diseases 3554.

Act 1:8 But 235 ye shall receive 2983 power 1411, after that the Holy 40 Spirit 4151 is come 1904 upon 1909 you 5209: and 2532 ye shall be 2071 witnesses 3144 unto me 3427 both 5037 in 1722 Jerusalem 2419, and 2532 in 1722 all 3956 Judaea 2449, and 2532 in Samaria 4540, and 2532 unto 2193 the uttermost part 2078 of the earth 1093.

1411. dunamis force (literally or figuratively); specially, miraculous power (usually by implication, a miracle itself):--ability, abundance, meaning, might(-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle(-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.

So the 12 apostles, including Judas, were given 1411 dunamis power by Jesus, the same 1411 dunamis power that the believers received at Pentecost.

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power 1411: who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with Him.

It would thus seem that in order for a person to receive this power 1411, the Holy Spirit had to be put on someone first, even if only, while Jesus was still alive and under the Law, in "Old Testament fashion".

So when I look at the 12 apostles, at first all 12 were believing Christians and since the other 11 apostles "continued in their faith that Jesus was the Messiah" until their death, they received salvation, but Judas did not receive salvation at his death because Judas stopped believing during his lifetime.

Indeed, we can only believe "while we yet live", and judging from Abraham's example ("who saws His day and believed") we can receive salvation both before Jesus's resurrection by looking toward resurrection and we can receive salvation by looking backward to Jesus's resurrection. And in that, Judas was no different.

The only difference between Judas and the other 11 apostles is that, of the 12, only Judas "stopped believing" and so Judas lost his salvation which can be received only by "continuous believing until and into death".

wih love, eden
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
You highlighted the wrong words in the quote of me. Again, you're focusing on power and the works thereof. Even Balaam's donkey possessed miraculous power.

The issue is about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Aaron
 
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on :
 
It is hard to say if Judas was ever saved.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders.

But then it says -

Acts 1:23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they all prayed, “O Lord, you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen 25 as an apostle to replace Judas in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs.”

Where was that??
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Aaron. You wrote to Eden
quote:
You highlighted the wrong words in the quote of me.
Next time I'll be sure to check with you first. No more bolding without your permission first being granted. [roll on floor]

love, eden
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Judas Betrayed Yeshua

Peter Denied Yeshua

The other disciples fled and hid in fear except for the beloved disciple who is mentioned at the cross with Yeshuas mother.

The question is was Judas ever saved? Salvation as I know it could not have occurred until after Yeshua paid the ultimate price for the sins of the world, for sins past, present and future.

Matt 27:3-

verse 4 Judas says "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood"

verse 5 The he (Judas) threw down the pieces of silver in the temple departed and went and hanged himself.

Judas took his own life, but could have asked forgiveness from Yeshua later and would have recieved it. But it was impossible for him because he took his life before Yeshua paid the price for sin.

Peter on the other hand did Deny Yeshua, but later repented and we know the rest of the story.

To Betray the Lord or to Deny the Lord are both sins. But once a person is dead, then its too late to ask for forgiveness, because after death is the judgement. Somewhere down the road in Judas walk with Yeshua, he lost Faith. And without faith it is impossible to please God.
 
Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Judas was never a believer and therefore never saved. Jesus addressed a group that was following Him and said, "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him." (John 6:64).
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Thanks for that.
My question would be then were any of the disciples "saved" before Yeshua went to the cross?
 
Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Well that is a good question. They were not indwelt, like us, untill pentecost.

I will dig in to my Bible and study this out, before I say more.


for now good nite. [hug]
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Thanks for that.
My question would be then were any of the disciples "saved" before Yeshua went to the cross?

To add seasoning to the stew: Consider that the Lamb was slain "from the foundation of the world". That is: before He made man, God already provided for man's salvation.

I know the obvious question: Well, was Jesus crucified about 2000 years ago or was He crucified from the foundation of the world?

The answer is "Yes; on both accounts". [Big Grin]

Aaron
 
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Thanks Aaron, very good answer and one I agree with.

I guess it all boils down to the heart and only God knows each persons true heart and motives and only God knows who is saved and who is not.

Only God knows who is "Once saved always saved", it is impossible for us to know but we can only look at the fruits but maybe even then that could be a deception because many say they believe in Yeshua but we cant possibly know their relationship with Him, only He knows.

The only problem i have with the OSAS doctrine is that I feel like it tends to make some people feel like they can do any wicked thing and it doesnt matter to them for they believe that they are saved and can go on lving the same or sometimes even worse than before they believed on Yeshua.

I know this firsthand as I have some friends who claim that the pastor has told them at the alter they are now saved and nothing they do will cause them to lose their salvation.

Instead of telling them to go and sin no more (habitual sin) he simply tells them that from now on it doesnt matter what they do they are saved. And I fear some people take that as their rightousness is as filthy rags so they continue to stay filty instead of letting Yeshua clean them.

I worry that this does more damage to the church body.
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Something in human nature makes us want to go to extremes, a weakness from which Christians are not wholly free. “Since we are saved by grace,” some argue, “we are free to live as we please,” which is the extreme of license.

“But we cannot ignore God’s Law,” others argue. “We are saved by grace, to be sure; but we must live under Law if we are to please God.” This is the extreme expression of legalism.

Romans 8:4
He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Thanks Aaron, very good answer and one I agree with.

I guess it all boils down to the heart and only God knows each persons true heart and motives and only God knows who is saved and who is not.

Only God knows who is "Once saved always saved", it is impossible for us to know but we can only look at the fruits but maybe even then that could be a deception because many say they believe in Yeshua but we cant possibly know their relationship with Him, only He knows.

The only problem i have with the OSAS doctrine is that I feel like it tends to make some people feel like they can do any wicked thing and it doesn't matter to them for they believe that they are saved and can go on lving the same or sometimes even worse than before they believed on Yeshua.

I know this firsthand as I have some friends who claim that the pastor has told them at the alter they are now saved and nothing they do will cause them to lose their salvation.

Instead of telling them to go and sin no more (habitual sin) he simply tells them that from now on it doesnt matter what they do they are saved. And I fear some people take that as their rightousness is as filthy rags so they continue to stay filty instead of letting Yeshua clean them.

I worry that this does more damage to the church body.

I hear ya.

My concern is that there is such a lack of righteous leadership in church that people are more likely to get thrown to the curb than attended to as a child of God is supposed to be attended to.

An analogy I can think of: I would never tell a toddler that if they were rebellious and wicked they would be in danger of being thrown out of the house. The child would not understand. She would be filled with fear having no comprehension of life apart from her father. What an evil thing that would be! However, if a young adult were wicked and rebellious I would warn them of their impending "prodigal experience" if they did not change their ways.

The church is filled with spiritual infants and toddlers because of the lack of righteous leaders; righteous fathers who know how to raise sons. It seems to me that those who preach "peril at every turn" are more willing to cut their losses and distance themselves from the unstable and childish. If the "peril preachers" are so mature then they should "pick up" a child and help them mature. Instead, the rant against the children.

It's not a perfect analogy but it helps to illustrate the my perception of the issue.

Aaron
 
Posted by CHEWY (Member # 6970) on :
 
I tend to see the evidence leaning more toward the fact that Judas was never saved. Being named one of the Apostles didn't save Judas anymore than carrying the title of pastor, elder or deacon does. The fact that Judas may have worked/performed miracles doesn't show me evidence that he was saved. If this were the case the sorceress that God allowed to bring Samuel back to speak to Saul was saved. What about Sampson, was he saved? He lived a wretched rebellious life, even committed suicide [depending on how you interpret suicide] yet his name is listed in the "Hall of Faith." [Hebrews ch.11]

The information seeker-

Chewy-
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Judas did not believe.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:8

Whatever work Judas did does not prove he was empowered by the Holy Spirit. Our Lord Jesus Christ said:

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matthew 7
 
Posted by noble (Member # 11022) on :
 
OOOHHHH GOOODY!!! my first reply!!!
Dearest friends, I see the rapport here is about the same as when I left. Hello Kindgo!![ by the way]
Judas was a real member of the inner twelve. A full Disciple. He went out on the missions with the full power of the Holy Spirit as the others were. But as peter had his weak moments so did Judas, but at the wrong time. Remember Jesus came to Earth for one reason and one reason only, to die. God knew this and God used Judas for this purpose. Was Judas saved? although God knew what Judas would do I am sure Judas did not know the decisions he would make. He condemned himself. But he did the job he was supposed to do.
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by noble:
OOOHHHH GOOODY!!! my first reply!!!
Dearest friends, I see the rapport here is about the same as when I left. Hello Kindgo!![ by the way]
Judas was a real member of the inner twelve. A full Disciple. He went out on the missions with the full power of the Holy Spirit as the others were. But as peter had his weak moments so did Judas, but at the wrong time. Remember Jesus came to Earth for one reason and one reason only, to die. God knew this and God used Judas for this purpose. Was Judas saved? although God knew what Judas would do I am sure Judas did not know the decisions he would make. He condemned himself. But he did the job he was supposed to do.

Right.
NEXT!
[cool_shades]
 
Posted by noble (Member # 11022) on :
 
I see, superior intellect?
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Even our modern laws recognize a difference between a crime of passion, and one that is premeditated. What Judas did was cold and calculated; he sold his Master for money.

I know we all have moments of weakness and commit sin. But could a man who had faith in God, and especially one who had faith in the Son of God, do something this wicked in such a cold, premeditated way?

Matthew 26:14-16 (NASB)

14 Then one of the twelve, named Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests 15 and said, "What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him. 16 From then on he began looking for a good opportunity to betray Jesus.

Matthew 26:24-25 (NASB)

24 "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." 25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, "Surely it is not I, Rabbi?" Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself."

… we have here an example…of that fixed determination to do evil which is unshaken by the clearest knowledge that it is evil.

Judas heard his crime described in its own ugly reality. He heard his fate proclaimed by lips of absolute love and truth; and notwithstanding both, he comes unmoved and unshaken with his question. The dogged determination in his heart, that dares to see his evil stripped naked and is 'not ashamed,' is even more dreadful than the hypocrisy and sleek simulation of friendship in his face.

Now most men turn away with horror from even the sins that they are willing to do, when they are put plainly and bluntly before them. As an old mediaeval preacher once said, 'There is nothing that is weaker than the devil stripped naked.' By which he meant exactly this—that we have to dress wrong in some fantastic costume or other, so as to hide its native ugliness, in order to tempt men to do it. So we have two sets of names for wrong things, one of which we apply to our brethren's sins, and the other to the same sins in ourselves. What I do is 'prudence,' what you do of the same sort is 'covetousness'; what I do is 'sowing my wild oats,' what you do is 'immorality' and 'dissipation'; what I do is 'generous living,' what you do is 'drunkenness' and 'gluttony'; what I do is 'righteous indignation,' what you do is 'passionate anger.' And so you may go the whole round of evil.

Very bad are the men who can look at their deed, described in its own inherent deformity, and yet say, 'Yes; that is it, and I am going to do it.' 'One of you shall betray Me.' 'Yes; I will betray you!' It must have taken something to look into the Master's face, and keep the fixed purpose steady.

(Expositions of Holy Scripture - St. Matthew 18-28.)
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by noble:
I see, superior intellect?

Not at all.

You open up with, "Dearest friends, I see the rapport here is about the same as when I left. Hello Kindgo!![ by the way] "

Who were you friend?

Carol has been re-posting for effect Post from the past for fine tuning and remembrance.
Its very interesting, for the old timers, to remember where one was at Spiritually then and see the growth or lack thereof concerning the topic.

Kindgo got bizzy in her personal life. Perhaps if you private message her she may answer you by way of her E-mail.


[Prayer]
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I'd love to see Kindgo come back!!! [clap2]

noble introduced himself in New Members Intro.

Yes, the boards were quiet for awhile, so I bumped up some old threads. It's nice to remember our friends, and sometimes add some new thoughts to an old post. And, like WildB said, see how we have grown since then.
 
Posted by noble (Member # 11022) on :
 
Kindgo, Caretaker, yes, these were and are friends. I'll have to get in touch with them both.
But Wildb I expected a valid response to my comments, Do I get one?
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Caretaker is here! Yea!
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Caretaker is here! Yea!

I went and fetched him lol.
 
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Bless your hearts. Joel is an old friend from many years ago on Bro. David's BBS and on Bro Gary's Forum He is a gentle caring brother in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In regards to Judas I do not believe he was saved, nor were any of the disciples saved until after the Cross of Christ, for until Jesus died as the Passover Lamb of God, each of the disciples was still under the old covenant of the Law of Moses.

There were NO Apostles until the Church was indwelt by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Judas is also reflective of the ones in the pews who put in their time, but the Lord is not within their hearts.

Judas as a disciple also went forth with the power as did the others, but in Matt. 7 we see a reference to doing signs in the Name but not being known:

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Judas is also reflective of the ones in the pews who put in their time, but the Lord is not within their hearts.

So true!
 
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
An excellent article:


http://www.letusreason.org/doct48.htm
 
Posted by noble (Member # 11022) on :
 
Thank you Drew, I have been in study in Ecclesiastes in my Thursday morning class I teach, and did miss that.I have been away from certain areas as I teach in others. I just finished an 8 week course I taught on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the building up of the Church,and between these two groups It's been busy.
I read that study you posted, found it interesting. One thing I note with all these studies from Adam Clark, to McGee, to the old commentaries of Matthew Henry, a difference in how folks and scholars look at particular passages. I then look at the historical background and meld information together as it seems to fit.
Your initial point that the Disciples were just that [learners] and not saved in the sense we understand it was spot on. One thing I do note is there were two occasions where the seventy and the fifty went out in the Power of the Holy Spirit, Judas was there both times and there being approximately 120 + disciples [learners] alongside the INNER twelve, this tells me Judas was specially selected, as they all were. Jesus, being God in the Flesh,I am sure knew from the beginning who Judas was and what he was supposed to do. As the tightwad treasurer of the group, I am sure Judas was aware of the expenses needed for certain functions,taxes etc, and he said so on occasion.
 
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by noble:
Thank you Drew, I have been in study in Ecclesiastes in my Thursday morning class I teach, and did miss that.I have been away from certain areas as I teach in others. I just finished an 8 week course I taught on the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and the building up of the Church,and between these two groups It's been busy.
I read that study you posted, found it interesting. One thing I note with all these studies from Adam Clark, to McGee, to the old commentaries of Matthew Henry, a difference in how folks and scholars look at particular passages. I then look at the historical background and meld information together as it seems to fit.
Your initial point that the Disciples were just that [learners] and not saved in the sense we understand it was spot on. One thing I do note is there were two occasions where the seventy and the fifty went out in the Power of the Holy Spirit, Judas was there both times and there being approximately 120 + disciples [learners] alongside the INNER twelve, this tells me Judas was specially selected, as they all were. Jesus, being God in the Flesh,I am sure knew from the beginning who Judas was and what he was supposed to do. As the tightwad treasurer of the group, I am sure Judas was aware of the expenses needed for certain functions,taxes etc, and he said so on occasion.

God bless you Joel. In many cases the Holy Spirit would come upon the one/ones chosen and they would prophesy as the Spirit gave them utterance or operate in great power as directed,but not until the resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit did He ever indwell the individual. It was faith which was counted the ones prior to Calvary for their righteousness, as in Hebrews 11's Hall of faith.

One mark of the Apostles was that they had actually seen the resurrected Christ, and Saul's experience on the Damascus road qualified.

Judas killed himself prior to the resurrection and so he was never an Apostle.
 
Posted by noble (Member # 11022) on :
 
I agree Drew, no argument from me there.
 
Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :
 
Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith. Judas was never “saved,” but for a time he was a follower of Christ. I believe we all betray Jesus at times in our life. Example: Peter, King David, etc...

The difference I believe is they repented because they knew what they had done and was devastated by their actions.

I have not seen where Judas repented?

"Even after his dreadful deed, Judas could have fallen on his knees to beg God’s forgiveness. But he did not. He may have felt some remorse born of fear, which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented, preferring instead to commit suicide, the ultimate act of selfishness"

Quote from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-saved.html#ixzz2kdKpYq7E
Was Judas saved or not?

Well unless we were there with him the entire time before he hung himself we will not know until we have met our maker and answer for what we have done.
He could have repented. But my thoughts are he did not. But I hope he did.


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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
I think that Jesus stated that Judas was lost, in His prayer in John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John Gill
John 17:12


While I was with them in the world
This does not imply that Christ was not in the world now, for he was; but signifies that he was just going out of it; and that his continuance in it was very short: nor that he was, and would be no longer with his disciples; for this is to be understood of his bodily, not of his spiritual presence; in which respect Christ is with his people whilst they are on earth, and they are with him when he is in heaven:

I kept them in thy name;
by his Father's authority and power, in his doctrine:

those that thou gavest me I have kept;
that is, those that were given him to be his apostles;

and none of them is lost;
these he kept close to himself, and from the evil of the world, and from temporal and eternal ruin:

but the son of perdition;
Judas, a child of Satan, whose name is Apollyon the destroyer, who was now about to betray his Lord and master; and was one that was appointed to eternal ruin and destruction, of which he was justly deserving; and which is no instance of the apostasy of saints, since though he was given to Christ as an apostle, yet not in eternal election, to be saved by him:

that the Scripture might be fulfilled;
this respects either Christ's keeping of his people, and their final perseverance, whereby the Scriptures that speak of it are fulfilled; or rather the destruction of Judas, whereby such passages as speak of that, have their accomplishment, particularly ( Psalms 109:8 ) ; Some have thought that this only refers to the general sense of the Scriptures, both the law and prophets; that some are chosen to everlasting life, and others are appointed to wrath; that some are saved, and others lost; some sons of God, and others sons of perdition; but it rather seems to regard some particular passage or passages of Scripture relating to Judas, his character, condition and end, and which are very manifestly pointed at, in the psalm referred to;

``As for the servants whom I have given thee, there shall not one of them perish; for I will require them from among thy number.'' (2 Esdras 2:26)
 
Posted by Robby (Member # 448) on :
 
Let us not forget that demons acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God.

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble.
James 2:19


Remember, salvation is only for humanity, not fallen angels or demons (who are not human beings).

Hebrews 2:16 tells us, "For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants."

So, there is no Redeemer for angels. Their fallen leader seeks "only to steal and kill and destroy" (John 10:10).

Satan's plan was never to save anything. He cannot even save himself (Matt. 25:41).
 
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
one has to have faith in a dollar for it to be worth something.

My Christ has worth no man can know.
 
Posted by noble (Member # 11022) on :
 
One other point is, we really don't know what God's disposition of Judas was or is. We can speculate based on his actions both before and after the betrayal, but because God KNEW before the universe began what Judas's role would be, did He condemn him already, or was the condemnation issued at the betrayal?
Now Drew brought up a point I never heard of before about some condemned angel. Drew where was this noted?
Also as Judas was from the selection of the twelve a Disciple, one of the inner circle, he was as solid a believer as the rest of the disciples, he did minister in the Power of the Holy Spirit, that I believe he did have the respect of the others, regardless of what some other scripture says. It's like I have a company and in that company I have a treasurer and that treasurer watches the nickles and dimes, and others in the company may be a bit chagrinned and say unkind things but Jesus must have respected him, to allow him to keep that job.
 
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
The reference to Judas as a son of perdition comes from the prayer of Jesus in John 17, and Jesus declares that Judas is the only one lost.

Scriptures in reference to Judas:

He made a conscience choice to betray Jesus - Luke 22:48.
He was a thief with greed in his heart - John 12:6.
Jesus knew Judas' heart was set on evil and that he would not repent - John 6:70, John 17:12.
Judas' act of betrayal was part of God's sovereign plan - Psalm 41:9, Zechariah 11:12-13, Matthew 20:18 and 26:20-25, Acts 1:16,20.

John 12:
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
 
Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :
 
Heard this today. Very good.

A Tale of Two Sorrows
http://youtu.be/2Q1CqVH-sCQ

Judas and Peter

Music video (Judas Kiss)
http://youtu.be/jvKS0AjMcdw


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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Good stuff David!!!!
 
Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :
 
[thumbsup2]
 




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