Christian Message Boards: THE OLD NATURE IN THE BELIEVER

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

by Cornelius R. Stam

The believer who would be truly spiritual must recognize the presence of the old nature within. It would be dangerous not to recognize a foe so near.

The old nature in the believer is that which is "begotten of the flesh." It is called, "the flesh," "the old man," "the natural man," "the carnal mind."

Just as "they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8) so that which is of the flesh, in the believer, cannot please God. "The flesh," as we have already seen, is totally depraved. God calls it "sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3), warns that it seeks "occasion" to do wrong (Gal. 5:13), and declares that "the works of the flesh" are all bad (Gal. 5: 19-21).

Nor is the old nature in the believer one which improves by its contact with the new. It is with respect to "the flesh" in the believer, even in himself that the Apostle declares that in it "dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18), that it is "carnal, sold under sin" (Rom. 7:14), that it is "corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph. 4:22), that it is at "enmity against God," and is "not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

"The flesh," even as it remains in the believer after salvation, is that which was generated by a fallen begetter. It is the old Adamic nature. It is sinful in itself. It cannot be improved. It cannot be changed. "That which is born [begotten] of the flesh is flesh," said our Lord (John 3:6), and it is as impossible to improve the "old man" in the believer as it was to make him acceptable to God in the first place.

The "old man" was condemned and dealt with judicially at the Cross. Never once is the believer instructed to try to do anything with him or to make anything of him, but always to "reckon" him "dead indeed" (Rom. 6:11), and to "put him off" (Col. 3:8-10).

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

I find Cornelius a little confusing in this particular message. I am not sure what he is really trying to point out in summary of the overall message. There seems to be a couple of ways that we could look at what he is saying.....

One way we can look at it is that we have the word revealed to us which gives us the hopeful expectation of corruption putting on incorruption....in the day of resurrection. The "sin nature" in us remains till that day.

But if one looks at it from another extreme he/she may think that it is ok to be a servant of sin.....I would say that they are gravely mistaken. We either serve one or the other.....sin or the Lord Jesus.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

WildB,

Good topic. Thank you for posting this.

Here's a little from Wiersbe that goes along with your post:

Ishmael (the flesh) caused problems for Isaac, just as our old nature causes problems for us. Ishmael created no problems in the home until Isaac was born, just as our old nature creates no problems for us until the new nature enters when we trust Christ. In Abraham’s home we see the same basic conflicts that we Christians face today:

Hagar versus Sarah = Law versus grace

Ishmael versus Isaac = flesh versus Spirit

In another section, he writes about some of the things we can do:

BODY
Before we trusted Christ, we used our body for sinful pleasures and purposes, but now that we belong to Him, we want to use our body for His glory. We must yield the members of the body as “instruments of righteousness” (Rom. 6:13) for the Holy Spirit to use in the doing of God’s work.

MIND
The world wants to control our minds, but God wants to transform our minds (Eph. 4:17-24; Col. 3:1-11). God transforms our minds and makes us spiritually minded by using His Word. As we spend time meditating on God’s Word , memorizing it, and making it a part of our inner man, God will gradually make our minds more spiritual (2 Cor. 3:18).

WILL
Many people think they can control their will by “willpower,” but usually they fail. (This was Paul’s experience in Rom. 7:15-21). It is only when we yield the will to God that His power can take over and give us the willpower (and the won’t power!) that we need to be victorious Christians. We surrender our wills to God through disciplined prayer. As we spend time in prayer, we surrender our will to God and pray, with the Lord, “Not my will, but Thy will be done.” We must pray about everything, and let God have His way in everything.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

Cornelius R. Stam needs to read deeper into scripture...

quote:
"The flesh," even as it remains in the believer after salvation, is that which was generated by a fallen begetter. It is the old Adamic nature. It is sinful in itself. It cannot be improved. It cannot be changed. "That which is born [begotten] of the flesh is flesh," said our Lord (John 3:6), and it is as impossible to improve the "old man" in the believer as it was to make him acceptable to God in the first place.

The "old man" was condemned and dealt with judicially at the Cross. Never once is the believer instructed to try to do anything with him or to make anything of him, but always to "reckon" him "dead indeed" (Rom. 6:11), and to "put him off" (Col. 3:8-10).

"THE EPISTLE TO THE GALATIANS"

Those Who Belong To Christ (5:24-26)

INTRODUCTION

1. In previous studies we have noted Paul contrasting the flesh and the
Spirit...
a. How the works of the flesh:
1) Oppose the Spirit - Ga 5:16-17
2) Prevents one from inheriting the kingdom - Ga 5:19-21
b. How walking in the Spirit:
1) Helps one to not fulfill the lust of the flesh - Ga 5:16
2) Produces the fruit of the Spirit in one's life - Ga 5:22-23
3) Frees one from the condemnation of any law - Ga 5:18,23c

2. In summarizing his discourse on the flesh and the Spirit, Paul
reminds us of what is true of those who belong to Christ...
a. They have crucified the flesh with its passion and desires - Ga
5:24
b. They live in the Spirit - Ga 5:25a
c. They should therefore walk in the Spirit, not in conceit,
provoking and envying one another - Ga 5:25b-26

[This passage (Ga 5:24-26) alludes to much that is revealed elsewhere as
to what it means to be a Christian, a disciple of Christ. For example,
those who truly belong to Christ are those who...]

I. HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH

A. IN PRINCIPLE...
1. When we died with Christ in baptism - Ro 6:3-6
2. So that now Christ lives in us, and we live by faith - Ga 2:20
-- Have you crucified the flesh in 'principle', through baptism?

B. IN PRACTICE...
1. As we seek to put off the old man, and put on the new - Co 3:
5-14
2. As we were taught by Christ - Ep 4:20-24
-- Are you crucifying the flesh in 'practice', by living a holy
life?

[Crucifying the flesh in both principle and practice cannot be done
without divine help. And so those who truly belong to Christ are those
blessed to...]

II. LIVE IN THE SPIRIT

A. IN THE BEGINNING...
1. It is the Spirit who gives life - Jn 6:63; 2 Co 3:6
2. Which He does in the washing of regeneration (i.e., baptism)
- Ti 3:5
3. So that we are truly born again of both water and the Spirit
- Jn 3:5
-- Have you been made alive in the Spirit, through baptism?

B. IN THE PRESENT...
1. By virtue of His indwelling - Ro 8:11; cf. 1 Co 6:19
2. Who empowers us to put to death the deeds of the body - Ro 8:
12-13; cf. Ep 3:16
-- Are you living in the Spirit, by utilizing His strength?

[Because we live in the Spirit, there is great potential for spiritual
growth. But that growth is not automatic. We can be guilty of grieving
the Spirit (cf. Ep 4:30). Thus those who belong to Christ...]

III. SHOULD WALK IN THE SPIRIT

A. NOT CONCEITED...
1. Manifested by selfish ambitions, contrary to the mind of Christ
- cf. Ph 2:3-5
2. Manifesting instead lowliness of mind that leads to gentleness
(meekness) - cf. Ga 5:23
-- Are you walking in the Spirit, free from conceit?

B. NOT PROVOKING...
1. Manifested by conduct such as immorality, outbursts of wrath
- cf. Ga 5:19-20
2. Manifesting instead joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness,
goodness, faithfulness - Ga 5:22-23
-- Are you walking in the Spirit, free from provoking others?

C. NOT ENVYING...
1. Manifested by hatred, jealousies - cf. Ga 5:20-21
2. Manifesting instead love that does not envy, thinks no evil
- cf. 1 Co 13:4-8a
-- Are you walking in the Spirit, free from envy?

CONCLUSION

1. Those who belong to Christ are they who...
a. Crucify the flesh in both principle and practice
b. Live in the Spirit from their baptism to the present
c. Should walk in the Spirit, producing the fruit of the Spirit

2. Do we truly belong to Christ...?
a. It begins with baptism into Christ - Ga 3:27
b. It continues with a life of faith - Ga 2:20
c. It produces a whole new person - Ga 6:15

Such is the life that Christ offers: made alive in the Spirit, walking
in the Spirit, bearing fruit of the Spirit. Is this not the life you
want...? - cf. Jn 10:10

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Thank you so much WyldB. That was the best post, and I am encouraged and excited to read it. And again, thanks! People who are afraid to die to self and live unto Christ will not appreciate the wisdom of this word, which is 'profound'. Amen! Cornelius isn't sounding so corny.

The truth of the matter is that the 'old man' survives out of unbelief, even when one 'thinks himself' to be serving. He is a blinder on the eyes of the believer. This is the reason that we have the scripture wherein Jesus anointed a man's eyes with dirt and spittle (mud, which represents the world, and our makeup) and had Him to 'wash' to rinse the mud out of his eyes. Is there any doubt where the expression (which we take for granted) comes from, "I can't see through muddy water"?

Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
The truth of the matter is that the 'old man' survives out of unbelief, even when one 'thinks himself' to be serving. He is a blinder on the eyes of the believer. This is the reason that we have the scripture wherein Jesus anointed a man's eyes with dirt and spittle (mud, which represents the world, and our makeup) and had Him to 'wash' to rinse the mud out of his eyes. Is there any doubt where the expression (which we take for granted) comes from, "I can't see through muddy water"?

The old man has a subtle way of cropping up in people's lives and deceiving them into thinking that they are holy and upright, when indeed they are being blinded. We have to be aware of the deceit and constantly praying for sanctification for the old nature and flesh to be purified.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

[Cross]

Actually the old man deceives one into thinking that he cannot be Holy and Righteous! We have to be aware that he will make us desire to constantly pray for sanctification, by keeping us focused on our failed state, and distracted from the 'reconciled' (sanctified)state that Jesus paid so much for us to experience!!!

[Prayer]

The very trouble with the Christian is mud in the eye. The heart is represented in the symbolism of the man 'washing' the mud and spittle out of his eyes. He is blinded by the world, the flesh, and the devil. This means that he doesn't see through the eyes of his Lord and Savior. This is because of unbelief - the very mud of the world.

When Paul says that the natural man receiveth not the things of God, he means that of the believer. Yes, from the perspective of the believer looking back on those who do not know Christ, this verse applies in that they are in the natural who do not believe, and do not know Christ. But Paul is addressing the natural man in the believer. This is he who is short of the full revelation of Christ as His life because he doesn't accept, or realize the finished work of Christ. He has not come to the "Stature of the fullness of Christ" (Eph 4:13). He is limited by his understanding, by someone within, by the legacy of the past life, who is the old man. The old man survives whenever he is not under the cross. Get the picture? The cross slays the old man. If one claims to live the resurrected life, yet the vestege of the old man survives through something incomplete in the believer's belief, then the believer (though he yet is) sees through muddy water. The flesh has blinded him from the picture perfect truth.

Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

Actually the old man deceives one into thinking that he cannot be Holy and Righteous! We have to be aware that he will make us desire to constantly pray for sanctification, by keeping us focused on our failed state, and distracted from the 'reconciled' (sanctified)state that Jesus paid so much for us to experience!!!

To sanctify means to purify.That is an ongoing perfecting spiritual work in us.

1 Thess 3:10 Night and day we pray earnestly for you, asking God to let us see you again to fill the gaps in your faith.

We have to strive to become more and more like him.

2 Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Peter 3: 14But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

17For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

|Dost thou read? "Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts."

|Perhaps I do not know how to read. To me this does not say, work at sanctifying. It does not read little by little. It says straight out, "Sanctify the Lord God in your hearts." As long as you do not this, you push God's grace aside. You justify transgression and failure as something that He is happy with.

|If you do not read scripture the way that it is written, you abide in darkness. Tis why Paul said this:

"Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."

|Which is where most believers want to cling for all of their life, on the baby bottle in the nursery of understanding.

|Do you want to follow? Do you want to abide? Do you want to be true? Sanctify the Lord God in your heart and be ready! Don't piddle around with toys.

"1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on :

The scriptures say we are changed from glory to glory.. We have to strive daily to become more and more like Christ. We live in a fallen world that is far from being perfect. Our flesh is part of that fallen world, and it still has its weaknesses after being converted. "I must die daily" as the scriptures say.

I was taught in the Wesleyan church that sanctification was a one-shot deal. I now know that I have to be purified on an ongoing basis. We all make mistakes and have to be forgiven and learn from them to move on to higher and stronger heights. We will never be perfected until we breath that last breath and become completely glorified with Jesus.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

You still are not reading the scripture. Your eyes are seeing it, and your mind is filling in for what you don't understand. It says, "Sanctify Him in your heart." When you have done that then you will know what being changed from glory to glory means!

Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on :

Is sanctification an immediate experience when somebody becomes a Christian? Can a born again Christian live a sanctified life here on earth?

First of all, sanctification is experienced in the new birth. Paul writes about the born again experience, "You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Thus immediate sanctification is part of the experience. We are holy, therefore, by virtue of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies us and dwells within.

Still there remains sin in every life which calls for further sanctification. Thus sanctification is also a process day by day. Concerning this matter, Paul writes, "Beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God" (1 Corinthians 7:1).

What is the meaning of "progressive sanctification"?

Paul writes: "Beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (2 Corinthians 7:1). In one sense every born-again believer has already been sanctified, "You were washed…sanctified…justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11). It is against the background of this initial sanctification in salvation that we are called upon to devote ourselves to ongoing sanctification. Whatever remains in the carnal self we should find intolerable and seek both cleansing and removal. Paul again speaks elsewhere "by the [indwelling] Spirit put to death the deeds of the body" (Romans 8:13). We cannot put to death the flesh in our own strength, but by the power of the Holy Spirit we can-if we are really serious about it. Day by day there can be progress in sanctification, and living a life more pleasing to our Lord.

Dr. R. Williams

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Regarding my old nature, I don't think about it much. I have confidence that God has said that He has crucified my old man with Christ on the cross.

So no matter what the old man may manage to do now and then, I know that POSITIONALLY God has done away with my old man and he no longer counts.

When the trunk of a bad tree with bad, shriveled-up fruit had a good branch grafted into the trunk of the bad tree, ABOVE THAT GRAFT the bad tree begins to produce good fruit.

But BELOW THE GRAFT the bad tree continues to grow bad shriveled-up fruit. The fruit BELOW the graft is SO BAD that NOBODY picks it anymore, it is just allowed to fall to the ground it is so bad.

If anything, the bad fruit is left on the bad tree BELOW the graft so show HOW BAD THE FRUIT WAS.

But NOBODY picks the bad, shriveled-up fruit. They ONLY pick the good fruit ABOVE the graft. Only THAT fruit counts now. The fruit ABOVE the graft is the ONLY FRUIT that God looks at and picks.

The fruit BELOW the graft is our old man, and the fruit ABOVE the graft is Jesus in us:

Now notice. The above was all well and good and sounded wonderful. But notice that with us, the process was REVERSED in the Bible.

WE are taken from the wild olive tree and are grafted into the good olive tree:

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:19
You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Romans 11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Romans 11:24
For if you wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these who are the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree?

So...how does THAT work??? [happyhappy]

with love, eden

Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
So...how does THAT work???
with love, eden

It works as a great lesson in humility.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Paul said "I die daily." Is that a process, or does he 'stay dead daily'? Some see this as a process of dying off a little at a time day-by-day. This is how you see sanctification. But when something is 'done' you don't do it again, over and over, unless you step out of it. Jesus substituted HIMself on the cross for Paul. Paul is baptized into Jesus' death. Therefore, Paul doesn't have to be re-baptized into Jesus' death over and over again. Jesus only did it once. It is done. All that remains for Paul to 'do' is to walk in it. Paul didn't 'do' it. Jesus did it for Paul. Therefore it was done once. JEsus will not do it again. Therefore it IS. If it is, then Paul has - by faith. If Paul has by faith, and Paul doesn't 'do' it, seeing that it is done for him, what remains for Paul to do? Keep trying? Paul didn't 'do' it in the first place.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

God cannot build our character without our cooperation. If we resist Him, then He chastens us into submission. But if we submit to Him, then He can accomplish His work. He is not satisfied with a halfway job. God wants a perfect work; He wants a finished product that is mature and complete.

God’s goal for our lives is maturity. It would be a tragedy if our children remained little babies. We enjoy watching them mature, even though maturity brings dangers as well as delights. Many Christians shelter themselves from the trials of life, and as a result, never grow up. God wants the “little children” to become “young men,” and the “young men” He wants to become “fathers” (1 John 2:12-14).

Paul outlined three works that are involved in a complete Christian life (Eph. 2:8-10).

First, there is the work God does for us, which is salvation. Jesus Christ completed this work on the cross. If we trust Him, He will save us.

Second, there is the work God does in us: “For we are His workmanship.” This work is known as sanctification: God builds our character and we become more like Jesus Christ, “conformed to the image of His Son” (Rom. 8:29).

The third work is what God does through us—service. We are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works.”

God builds character before He calls to service. He must work in us before He can work through us.

Wiersbe

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Paul emphasized balance in Christian living: the negative—“Abstain from all appearance of evil” (1 Thes. 5:22) and the positive—“And the very God of peace sanctify you” (1 Thes. 5:23). Some churches only preach the negative, and this leads to lives and ministries that are out of balance. Sanctify simply means “set apart for God’s exclusive use.”

There is positional sanctification (Heb. 10:10); we have once and for all been set apart for God.

There is also practical sanctification (2 Cor. 7:1), a daily dealing with our sins and a growth in holiness.

All of this will culminate in perfect sanctification (1 John 3:2), when we see Christ and become eternally like Him. Expecting to see Jesus Christ is a great motivation for holy living.

Wiersbe

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Michael Harrison. I thought this post of yours was one of your best ones yet:

quote:
Paul said "I die daily." Is that a process, or does he "stay dead daily"?

Some see this as a process of dying off a little at a time day-by-day. This is how you see sanctification. But when something is "done" you don't do it again, over and over, unless you step out of it. Jesus substituted HIMself on the cross for Paul. Paul is baptized into Jesus' death.

Therefore, Paul doesn't have to be re-baptized into Jesus' death over and over again. Jesus only did it once. It is done. All that remains for Paul to "do" is to walk in it. Paul didn't "do" it. Jesus did it for Paul. Therefore it was done once. JEsus will not do it again. Therefore it IS. If it is, then Paul has it by faith. If Paul has it by faith, then Paul doesn't 'do' it, seeing then that it is done for him, what remains for Paul to do? Keep trying? Paul didn't 'do' it in the first place.

I liked that, Michael Harrison, I agree with it. But explain to me please, what this phrase means which you wrote:

quote:
All that remains for Paul to "do" is to walk in it.

How DOES Paul walk in it, meaning walking in the knowledge of what has been done for Paul by Jesus.

As Watchman Nee might have put it, "don't focus on the sin or old man within myself; focus on what Jesus has done for this old man". As long as we keep our eyes on what Jesus has already done for us, the Devil Satan can find no ground of accusation in us.

But we take our eyes of what Jesus has already done for us, and instead we look at how our old man is sinning and "it's so awful and I'll try to do better but we keep doing those our sins again.

But when we keep our eyes on what Jesus has done for us on the cross, and we keep our eyes on the fact that God says...that He has crucified our old man WITH Christ {crucified, means put on the cross with Jesus}:

Romans 6(KJV)
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

When a Christian keeps his eyes on what Jesus has done for him, and keeps his eyes on that God has said that my old man IS crucified with Him, then Satan can find no ground of accusation.

But the moment I "move myself back under the law", and start to look at "what the old man is doing below the graft of Jesus", and I start trying to fix it, and that is hopeless.

Even God isn't trying to FIX us. The old man is so terrible and corrupt and brokendown that the old man is NOT WORTH FIXING.

Jesus died for all the sins of the old man so that God can start a new kind of man, one descended not from the first Adam and Eve, but descended from the second Adam, the Lord Jesus.

The old man first adam and all that came from that old man first adam will be done away with after Jesus tries to teach them for 1,000 years of peace and no war during the so-called millennium.

From the second man or last adam Jesus comes a new kind of man, currently a natural man with a downpayment of ACCESS to the Spirit, a bornagain kind of man who is neither natural man nor spiritual man, but an inbetween kind of man right now, but a new man already.

Jesus suffered terribly on the cross to pay for the sins of the old man, of the first dam, but we thank God that on the third day, Jesus rose again from the grave and 45 days later Jesus ascended from the mount of Olives into the clouds and out of sight in the presence of his disciples, and will so come again, as you have seen Him go.

with love, eden
"Come, worship the Lord!"

Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
There is also practical sanctification (2 Cor. 7:1), a daily dealing with our sins and a growth in holiness.
All of this will culminate in perfect sanctification (1 John 3:2), when we see Christ and become eternally like Him. Expecting to see Jesus Christ is a great motivation for holy living.

When we become born again we are baby Christians and yes we have to grow daily in order to become perfectly sanctified when we see Jesus.

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:Therefore, Paul doesn't have to be re-baptized into Jesus' death over and over again. Jesus only did it once. It is done. All that remains for Paul to "do" is to walk in it. Paul didn't "do" it. Jesus did it for Paul. Therefore it was done once.

Yes, when we become new born-again Christians we are only baptized once with the Holy Spirit and the old man dies, but that doesn't mean that the flesh disappears.