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Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
In a recent discussion on the topic How does the Holy Spirit work in a Christian? the question was raised, “Can you prove from Scripture that miraculous spiritual gifts have ceased?” Rather than simply add to an already very lengthy post, I thought it might be better to introduce this as a new topic. I recognize that this may present some ideas that are foreign to some, but I encourage you to carefully consider the points offered below and test them by the standard of God’s words. I welcome your comments or questions.
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Can You Prove From Scripture That Miraculous Spiritual Gifts Have Ceased?

To answer this question I offer seven points for your consideration: 1) The Definition of "Miraculous Spiritual Gifts"; 2) The Biblical Doctrine of “the Laying on of the Apostles’ Hands”; 3) The Stated Purpose of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts; 4) Peripheral Evidence (i.e. some things evident from the structure, preservation, and existence of Scripture); 5) Prophetic Evidence (i.e. evidence from Old Testament prophecy); 6) Evidence from First Corinthians; and finally 7) From evidence from what is taught regarding the Binding of Satan.

I. The Definition of "Miraculous Spiritual Gifts"
To understand the role and duration of miraculous spiritual gifts we must first understand what the Scripture teaches regarding these gifts. In general terms, these gifts are of a character which operates beyond and outside of the natural operation of the body and mind. These are distinct from gifts given by God which are non-miraculous in nature, and are distinct from promises God has made regarding the general benefits of prayer to the Christian.

A list which the Holy Spirit offers of some such gifts is found in First Corinthians 12:4-11. Let’s consider each of the gifts mentioned:

“Word of Wisdom” – “Word of Knowledge” – “Faith” (12:8-9). These gifts refer to revealed wisdom, knowledge, or elements of “the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). Personal faith is not bestowed upon a person. Rather, it comes from hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17). It is possible that the gift of “faith” might refer to strong faith in the same sense that Paul speaks of his own self-control as a “gift” (cf. I Corinthians 7:7). However, the context makes it more likely that he is talking about the revelation of information, categorized as wisdom, knowledge and faith.

“Healings” – “Working of Miracles” (12:9-10). This is the ability to Divinely perform a miracle of healing. This is to be distinguished from simply the “prayer of faith” (James 5:15). While the gifts of “healings” or “working miracles” might involve prayer, this gift allowed an individual to call the power of God toward the immediate healing of another.

“Prophecy” (12:10) is the direct revelation of information received independent of the personal study of the prophet. This was not exclusively predictive in nature. Some prophecy was simply instructive. It was not ecstatic (cf. I Corinthians 14:32). The prophet was in control of his or her mind and spirit.

“Discerning of Spirits” (12:10) is the miraculous ability to know the motive or content of another one’s spirit whether human (see Acts 13:9-11) or demonic (I Corinthians 10:20).

“Different Kinds of Tongues” – “Interpretation of Tongues” (12:10). As the account on Pentecost shows, these were human tongues. This gift allowed the bearer to communicate with others in languages which they had not studied. On Pentecost this involved both the ability to speak different tongues (Acts 2:4) and to be understood in one’s own language (Acts 2:8). “Interpretation of tongues” would have allowed the bearer to understand another person’s language in discourse (cf. I Corinthians 14:28). Paul’s instructions to Corinth may have been given in an attempt to train them principles by which they could distinguish genuine tongues from the ecstatic utterances which they might have practiced as pagans (I Corinthians 12:2-3).

These are not the only “gifts.” Roman 12:6-8 list other gifts some of which are miraculous in nature and others which are not. Nor are these the only works in the church. Ephesians 4:11 lists some types of works which were dependant upon miraculous gifts and some which were not. In broad terms, miraculous spiritual gifts were gifts which enabled the bearer to use Divine power to act in ways which suspended (or overcame) laws of nature. These gifts operated under the control of the bearer of these gifts.

II. The Biblical Doctrine of “The Laying On of the Apostles’ Hands”
There is a clear connection between the distribution of these gifts and the work of the apostles. The apostles held a special role in the establishment of the church. Not all disciples were apostles. We see this from the qualifications of apostles outlined in Acts 2:21-22. The apostles were not limited to the possession of simply one gift. They could prophesy, heal, perform miracles, and speak in tongues. They were, however, able to distribute gifts. This can be seen from the account of Simon who sinned in trying to buy the ability to “lay hands on” others in order to distribute gifts himself. While the text describes this as simply the “Holy Spirit” being given, the context makes it clear that this involved special gifts which were not simply given when a person obeyed the gospel. Those in Samaria obeyed the gospel, but they had not yet received the Spirit (Acts 8:17). The converts in Ephesus did not “receive the Holy Spirit” upon their baptism, but after Paul laid hands upon them. It was only then that they spoke in tongues and prophesied (Acts 19:5-6). Timothy received a gift by the laying on of Paul’s hands (II Timothy 1:6). This same instance is referred to in I Timothy 4:14 as the laying on of the hands of the “presbytery” (a term meaning eldership)—used here of the apostles as those elder in the faith. The church in Rome, most likely established by converts from Pentecost who returned back to Rome, had not received miraculous spiritual gifts upon the writing of Paul’s epistle to them (see Romans 1:11-12). This had not happened yet because neither he (nor apparently other apostles) had yet been to Rome (see Romans 15:23). This special function of the apostles, by which miraculous spiritual gifts were distributed, is undoubtedly one of the reasons Paul told the Ephesians the church is built upon the “foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ Himself as the chief cornerstone” (Ephesians 2:20).

This special role of the apostles was unique. They did not establish a chain of apostolic succession (as our Roman Catholic friends try to affirm). There is no Scriptural evidence that their authority as “ambassadors of Christ” (II Corinthians 5:20) passed to others beyond their death. In the same way, the special ability bestowed upon them to lay hands upon others and distribute spiritual gifts, was not passed on to others upon their death. There is not Scriptural evidence that one who received a miraculous spiritual gift had the ability to “lay hands on” others in order to distribute such gifts. As a result, upon the death of the apostles the Scriptural means to distribute spiritual gifts came to an end. Upon the death of those who had received the “laying of the hands of the apostles” all miraculous spiritual gifts came to an end.

III. The Stated Purpose of Miraculous Spiritual Gifts
Scripture reveals to us a great deal about the purpose and significance of these miraculous spiritual gifts. This helps us understand a number of things about their duration and the role which they played in the establishment of the Lord’s church. In Mark’s account of the Great Commission Jesus promised:
quote:
And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover (Mark 16:17-18).
There is no question that these signs truly did “follow those who believed.” Yet, the Holy Spirit, goes further to tell us about this, declaring:
quote:
So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen (Mark 16:19-20).
Here the Holy Spirit declares a purpose for these gifts. Through these gifts the Lord demonstrated that He was “working with them” in order to “confirm” the word “through the accompanying signs. Was this confirmation personal in nature? In other words, did the Lord provide a miracle or sign to every individual in doubt in order to confirm the validity of the message? No. In Acts 17:32, after preaching to those in Athens, no miracle is offered in spite of the fact that “some mocked” while others asked to hear Paul again. It is also clear that these gifts were not intended to grant deliverance and healing to all who were sick. Paul, states plainly that he left a companion named Trophimus sick in Miletus (II Timothy 4:20). Paul certainly could have healed him, but it was not done. It is evident that these miraculous gifts were intended to collectively demonstrate the Divine nature of the message of salvation that was being preached in Jesus Christ. The Hebrew writer declares the same fact, speaking of the “great salvation” taught in Christ:
quote:
… which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will (Hebrews 2:3-4).
Here the Hebrew writer states in essence what Mark declared. In these signs, wonders and various miracles God showed Himself to be “bearing witness” as a means of confirmation of the message. With this as a stated purpose of these miraculous spiritual gifts, we must consider does God need to continue to bear witness to a word that has been confirmed? Many in modern times seem to feel as if the New Testament “witness” of God was insufficient. It must be understood that these gifts, which served to both reveal the word and then confirm its validity were never intended to serve as a constant and ongoing process of revelation and confirmation. The Holy Spirit Himself tells us that they offered confirmation. A message that has been confirm to be Divine, needs no further “witness” to establish its validity.

IV. Peripheral Evidence
There can be no dispute that there have been times in human history when God has been silent in regard to the revelation of Scripture.
At the very least this shows that the miraculous spiritual gift which led to the inspiration of Scripture has ceased.

V. Prophetic Evidence
Two Old Testament passages address matters related to the issue of miraculous spiritual gifts: Joel 2:28-29 and Zechariah 13:1-6.
At the very least the prophetic evidence shows that during the period of the New Covenant there will be not only a period of the outpouring of miraculous spiritual gifts but also a time in which at least the gift of prophecy will cease. The fact that Joel uses prophecy, dreams, and visions to refer to all miraculous spiritual gifts, may infer that Zechariah uses reference to the prophet and evil spirit in the same way in reference to miraculous spiritual gifts collectively.

VI. Evidence from First Corinthians
The apostle Paul devotes three chapters in his first letter to the Corinthians to the issue of spiritual gifts. He begins in 12:1 with the words, “Now concerning spiritual gifts brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant.” He then proceeds to address issues primarily relating to tongues and prophecy in the assembly until the summary of 14:40: “Let all things be done decently and in order.” In the midst of this he offers the beautiful chapter which teaches us the true nature of love, in 13:1-8a. After this he declares the following:
quote:
…But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away (I Corinthians 13:8-10).
Here the Holy Spirit declares plainly through the mouth of Paul that there will be a time in which “prophecies will fail”—“tongues will cease” and “knowledge will vanish away.” The time when this will occur is identified. These gifts mentioned, of prophecy, tongues and (by inference) revealed knowledge are described as things which are only “in part.” This is an important declaration. In spite of the views of modern charismatics these gifts were never to represent the fullness of God’s interaction with man. They were not an end unto themselves, but were something “in part.” Paul tells us that these things will end, “when that which is perfect has come.” There are four ways this is usually explained:

1. The return of Christ. If this idea were correct it would be reasonable to expect the text to say—“when He who is perfect has come.” In the Greek the word translated “perfect” is a neuter adjective. This is why it is translated “that which,” rather than “He who.”

2. The state of the saved in heaven. Many lean toward this view largely due to verse twelve—“Then I shall know just as I also am known.” The problem with this is the declaration of verse 8 that knowledge will “vanish away.” In what sense will knowledge vanish away in heaven? If it is common knowledge surely it isn’t suggesting that we will lose our ability to reason. If it is miraculous knowledge, won’t heaven be the ultimate revelation of the mind of God? We’ll go back to verse twelve again a bit later.

3. A mature church. This idea would harmonize well with Ephesians 4:11-16 which speaks of different gifts being given – “till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (vs. 13). However, one would have to concede that such occurred in the first century. Jude speaks of the faith—“Which was once for all delivered to the saints” (vs. 3) and Peter claims of God that—“His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness” (II Peter 1:3). Further, the context of First Corinthians thirteen doesn’t seem to concern the incomplete (or immature) nature of the church, but rather the incomplete nature of revelation. All of this leads me to favor a fourth explanation...

4. Complete revelation. The Greek word translated “perfect” is the word telion meaning—“brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect” (Thayer, pg. 618). The context of Paul’s teaching concerns partial revelation. The early church had been given miraculous spiritual gifts to confirm their message (Mark 16:20) and to complete God’s revelation to man (John 16:13 & 14:26). This partial nature of God’s revelation was fully accomplished by the time late New Testament writers composed their works (Jude 3 & II Peter 1:3). This revelation is preserved for us in the form of the written words of New Testament Scripture. It is this message which James calls the “perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25). Thus it is reasonable, Scriptural, and contextual to conclude that “that which is perfect” is the full and complete revelation of New Testament Scripture, which has now come. This tells us, as a result “that which is in part” (i.e. miraculous spiritual gifts) are “done away.”

We should note an interesting element in Paul’s words in I Corinthians 13:12. The text reads:
quote:
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
If we had this verse alone with no other context of Paul’s meaning here, we might conclude that heaven will be the only time in which the Christian will behold the Lord “face to face.” However, there is a very significant history behind this phrase. Five times in the Law of Moses, it is used of the relationship between God, Moses and Israel. Exodus 33:11 says, “the LORD spoke to Moses face to face.” In Numbers 12:8 God says of Moses, “I will speak with him face to face.” Then in Numbers 14:14, the Holy Spirit tells us, “You, LORD, are among these people; …You, LORD, are seen face to face.” In the same way Moses tells the people, “The LORD talked with you face to face on the mountain from the midst of the fire” (Deuteronomy 5:4). And finally, Deuteronomy ends, saying of Moses, “But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face” (Deuteronomy 34:10). It is evident that none of these statements suggest that Moses (or Israel collectively) saw the full glory of the face of God. John tells us, “no one has seen God at any time” (John 1:18; I John 4:12). Nor is it saying that Moses and Israel were in the presence of God in heaven. Rather, it is describing a fullness, and complete measure of revelation which was unequalled at the time. God in giving the Law of Moses, of which the Psalmist said, “the Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul” (Psalm 19:7), established a relationship with Israel which was described as one that was “face to face.” Paul uses the same figure speaking of the time in which the New Covenant would be fully revealed as a time when “that which is perfect” would come—a time in which Christians, in their relationship with God (just like Moses and Israel) would see the will of God “face to face.”

VII. The Binding of Satan
One final factor which enters into this issue concerns the teaching of Revelation 20:1-4 concerning the binding of Satan. The text reads:
quote:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
This texts speaks of a time in which “Satan” is bound for a period of “one thousand years.” This period is identified as taking place when Christ “reigns.” The evidence of the New Testament is that the kingdom and reign of Christ began with His resurrection from the dead, conquering death. Prior to His ascension Jesus declared Himself to have “all authority” over a realm He says is “in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18). Christians in the first century already considered themselves to be a part of His kingdom. Paul told the Colossians, “He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love” (Colossian 1:13). John, in the Book of Revelation itself, identifies himself saying, “I John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ” (John 1:9). This makes it clear that Christ has reigned from the time of His ascension to the present. As such, the period of “one thousand years” must be understood to be a large period of time—but not a literal “one thousand years.” If this is the case, it indicates that during the time of Christ’s reign over His kingdom, the church, Satan is bound. In light of Zechariah 13:1-6 this appears to refer to a period of restricted demonic activity during the time of Christ’s reign. If this is correct, and the “evil spirit” is caused to pass from the land, the need for the power to “cast out evil spirits” would itself be eliminated. It is unclear what Revelation 20:3 indicates about the period in which Satan shall be “released for a little while.” If is does indicate a period of renewed demonic activity, there is no doubt that Christians would be given whatever is needed to overcome any such influence.

Conclusion
In light of this evidence I believe that it is proven from Scripture that the miraculous spiritual gifts bestowed upon the New Testament church came to an end when the means of distributing those gifts through the “laying on of the apostles’ hands” died with the apostles. It is clear from Scripture that these gifts were not intended to be permanent. Not all Christians were healed nor could heal. It is clear that these gifts were only to endure until the coming of “that which is perfect.” In the light of the context, miraculous spiritual gifts (which were “in part”) are contrasted with “that which is perfect (i.e. complete revelation). These gifts were not intended to confirm personal belief—many who might have believed were left to their own unbelief. They were however, to serve collectively as Divine confirmation of the validity of the message of the gospel. With the completion of the New Testament, the need for additional revelation of the gospel came to an end. With the validity of the gospel established, the need for such confirmation came to an end. Divine silence regarding additional revelation of Scripture since the completion of the New Testament provides further evidence that the special work of the Holy Spirit in miraculous spiritual gifts given to the New Testament church has ceased.

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Thank you for taking the time to read this material. Please “test all things, hold fast what is good” (I Thessalonians 5:21). I appreciate your study and pray that God will be glorified by the efforts of good and honest hearts.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I only had to read the first few paragraphs to be able to comment. Natural ability may be of God when one considers it. However, it is meaningless with regard to the heavenly realm wherein one is supposedly seated if they are Christ's. Paul had every reason to be confident in his abilities, and knowledge, however this is what he said:

Php 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

As far as gifts of the Spirit and miracles go, they are no different than our risen Lord, wherein one, named Thomas, would not believe unless he saw Him. But even seeing would not be good enough for some. They would only be angry.

You do not say this by the Spirit of God:

quote:
Here the Holy Spirit declares plainly through the mouth of Paul that there will be a time in which “prophecies will fail”—“tongues will cease” and “knowledge will vanish away.” The time when this will occur is identified. These gifts mentioned, of prophecy, tongues and (by inference) revealed knowledge are described as things which are only “in part.” This is an important declaration. In spite of the views of modern charismatics these gifts were never to represent the fullness of God’s interaction with man. They were not an end unto themselves, but were something “in part.” Paul tells us that these things will end, “when that which is perfect has come.” There are four ways this is usually explained:
You cannot tell anyone when He will return. Yet you can predict when the gifts ended. Strange! When that which is perfect is come!!! That would likely be after the second coming.

You are self convinced, (which of course you would accuse us of). I am convinced of His Spirit. I have this joy in beholding Him.
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
I have never been able to convince one who believes the gifts have ceased that the gifts, in fact, continue to this day. Furthermore, God has never prompted me to display one of the gifts, as evidence of their continuation, to the skeptics.

But I have this testimony: In the name of Jesus Christ the blind see, the lame are healed, the sick are restored, and demons are cast out. Oh, and gifts are imparted by the laying on of hands.

If the above is the work of the devil then I am completely lost because I believe that Jesus Christ, Himself, is doing the work.

Aaron
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
P.S. The scriptures list more than 13 apostles.

[Big Grin]
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Kyle,
I am going to respond to your post from a few different angles, so please bear with me as I may jump around a little and seem a little loosely associated at times.

The first thing that I would like to say is that in looking at the general overview of your position and the scriptures you use in support of it I am not sure whether or not you are using a reliable method of study. What I mean by that is that it appears that you could be using your interpretation as the check and balance for scripture and not scipture as the check and balance for your interpretation. The passages that you provide do not narrow down a specific timeline for the cessation of miraculous gifts. They also are passages that could be interpreted in more than one way(concerning time-lines). What I wonder is???....... If you had never ever heard anything in the past from anyone regarding the cessation of miraculous gifts, would you have drawn that same conclusion on your own from the scriptures? I agree with you that one day there will be no more need for miracles. Exactly when that will be I dont know.

By virtue of the fact that we do not see miracles going on left and right before our eyes like we would have in the days of the apostles does not prove that miracles no longer happen or can happen. I see the present-day situation as an opportunity where one could easily conclude that miracles no longer exist. When I use the word "miracle" I mean something that would be impossible to do without God. Have any of us heard of any of the reports of missionaries who are hazarding their lives for the cause of Jesus?

Are you so sure that the Lord in His good-will and purpose would not ever in our time deem it necessary to comfirm His word by a miracle? If it were to happen in the U.S., I believe there is a good chance that we could see a big swing of Muslims converting to Christianity. That would not seem to me to be a far-fetched hope.

Maybe I just dont want to believe that miracles are not possible anymore. Is that a bad thing?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Daniel,

Thanks for your kind reply and taking the time to consider my post. I think I followed your points--you did not seem to jump around too much.

I don't believe that I am simply starting with an interpreation and then trying to shape Scripture to match it. However, that danger is the reason all of us must constantly test our views by the pattern of God's word. In many respects it would be much easier for me to simply say, "yes, miraculous spiritual gifts exist today as they did in the New Testament." However, that is not what I find Scripture to teach.

Yes, there are some points that are more conclusive than others. Yes, there are some timelines that are specified and others which are inferred. I do believe it is important to recognize the distinction between miraculous spiritual gifts and simply "the prayer of faith" which is said to "save the sick" promising that "the Lord will raise him up" (James 5:15). In most instances I do think that God answers such prayers of Christians through natural means. The answer to all prayers which Christians offer is conditioned upon whether something is "according to His will" (I John 5:14). Yet, there are many things we do not fully understand about what God does and how He does it. The Christian must simply do what He commands and trust Him through all things.

I appreciate your point about your wish that something might move Muslims to believe in Jesus. Yet, Scripture must again be the pattern. If God did not move the Jews of the first century to accept the message of Jesus, but allowed the temple itself to be destroyed, why would we think that He would seek to move Muslims to Him through some miraculous means?

I fear that the real problem is that people in our day simply fail to recognize the true power of the word. It is the gospel, which is "the power of God unto salvation" (Romans 1:16). While Muslims, Jews, Hindus, or even denominationalists sit back and wait for some "sign from heaven" (so to speak) the most powerful thing in the universe is right in front of us--the living word of God. It is "sharper than a two-edged sword" (Hebrews 4:12). The challenge is will we listen to it, or not?

Thanks for your continued study. I hope we can continue to study together the things of God's word.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Kyle,
Its interesting that when I was in debate with a calvanist that I would be the one defending the power of the Word of God(with its message of Gods love) as being sufficiently able to draw sinners to repentance. Now it seems that you are arguing with me using that same premise. The topic just being a little different though. I am trying to figure out what to make of that.

I guess the big question is ......would God ever see it necessary to confirm His word where some of us may not see that necessity?

This subject is interesting so I may continue on is for a little while more with you. I just got to get going to work now.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kyle your view would funny if it wasn't so sad.

You try to explain away the very nature of the character of who Yahweh is.... a awesome, powerful, all knowing, caring, loving creator, Father, King who wants to be involved in the smallest details of His children lives.

Yahweh the same yesterday,today, forever...

Yahweh did miracles for all Old Testament saints Yahweh did miracles for the early church....

but now Yahweh has changed according to you and your Church of Christ false teachings.

Have you been to China, Russia and other places where the Church is and has been for years under persecution, being put to death for attending The Church or witnessing?

The religion preached be people like you, is a gospel of head knowledge, you are trained like a monkey and respond mentally out of your training.

I assure you because of the Scriptures I have read and the time I have spent in prayer and fellowship with Yahshua.... Yahweh has not changed, what He has done for any throughout time He is still doing today for those who trust in Him and put their faith on the line.

I serve a risen Saviour, a Saviour full of love and compassion, A Saviour who said He rewards those that diligently seeks Him.

Kyle you are a deist, not a Christian, Born Again believer.

Deism is a religious philosophy and movement that derives the existence and nature of God from reason and personal experience.

Deists typically reject supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and tend to assert that God does not intervene with the affairs of human life and the natural laws of the universe. What organized religions see as divine revelation and holy books, most deists see as interpretations made by other humans, rather than as authoritative sources. Deists believe that God's greatest gift to humanity is not religion, but the ability to reason.

Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in The United Kingdom, France and The United States of America, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one God. Initially it did not form any congregations, but in time deism led to the development of other religious groups, particularly Unitarianism. It continues to this day in the form of Classical Deism and Modern Deism.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Thank you for that becausehelives. I learned from that.
quote:
You try to explain away the very nature of the character of who Yahweh is....
That is so well stated.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Kyle,
I thought about this post for a little while at work today. I have no real desire to debate this issue further. It kind of sickens my spirit.

What I believe is a timeless truth: If a man sows to love, it is possible to reap a miracle.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Daniel,

I wasn't asking you to debate this issue further. You seem to have a sincerity and a love for the word of God. I simply meant, I hope on other things in the future we can study further. Take care.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Passively aggressive, no? Persistent? Insistent. Les study more! I'm game.
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Michael,

I will be happy to discuss any consideration and analysis of what the word of God teaches. However, I don't believe anything can be gained by ridicule, mocking, or accusation.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kyle, I would like to address you as a brother but many things stand in the way of calling you brother. (the greatest being the doctrine of the Church of Christ)

Now Kyle you say the gifts of miracle has passed and that which is perfect has come….

Let me ask you a simple question….

Ephesians 4: 2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

In light of these verses in Ephesians 4, if that which perfect has came why is there no unity of faith?

Why is there not a fullness of the measure of the stature of Christ in the Earth?

What do you have to answer to the miracles received by men like George Muller, Brother Andrew (the bible smuggler),Corrie Ten Boon, Richard Wurmbrand (man who founded voice of the martyrs and spent a total of fourteen years imprisoned in Romania for his faith in Yahshua)and more ?

"Martyrs Mirror" if you are not familiar with what "Martyrs Mirror" is go here....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs_Mirror

here is the online version ....
http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/
What do you answer to the men and women that experienced miracle after miracle as they were being tortured to death for Christ?

men and women that as the flames engulfed their bodies they felt no pain...

one man i read of , his body would not burn, his executioners cursed him, took him down and hack him into little peices...

Kyle I pray you find the living Christ, that is imparting daily His resurrections life and frees people from all the bondages of religion such as the one you are trapped in.

The Pharisees of Yahshua's time in the flesh on this earth, were very knowledgeable about the scriptures but they did not know Him.

Just like the majority of the men in pulpits today, they have degrees from some theology institute that tell them they are preachers, but that is all they have they have no life to impart to those lost souls going to hell because Church has turn into an institution instead of a living miracle working man, like the Lord Yahshua. (which is what the Church is suppose to be)
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
becauseHElives,

Thank you for the link to "Martyrs Mirror." I appreciate works like that and "Foxe's Book of Martyrs." I may not agree with all that some described in those accounts believed, but I appreciate their courage to stand for their convictions.

Personal or historical experience can never be used as a test for Divine truth. We will not be judged by another person's experience or claims but by the word of God (John 12:47-48).

Regarding your question from Ephesians 4:2-13, you will notice from verses 11-13 that works and gifts are mentioned there which are not miraculous in nature. Paul does the same in Romans 12:6-8. Those gifts and works still operate to work towards the unity and perfection of the Lord's church. Even so, as you will note in my comments above, the context of I Corinthians 13:12 doesn't address the maturity or perfection of the church, but rather partial vs. complete revelation. Thanks.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Hittite1963, in regards to the Topic title, "Miraculous Spiritual Gifts Have Ceased", I do believe that the Word of God says that the Spirit inside of us divides to some Christians the gift of miracles ... but all these does one and the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all apostles? {Answer: no}. Are all prophets? {Answer: no}. Are all teachers? {Answer: no}. Are all workers of miracles? {Answer: no}. But some are workers of miracles until Jesus comes, aren't they?

with love,
eden
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Eden,

There is no question that one gift given by the Holy Spirit in the begining was that some were "workers of miracles." The question is whether this gift still continues? Given that Joel, Zechariah, and Paul (in my understanding - as stated above) all seem to class miraculous gifts together, if "that which is perfect" has come, then the need for such a gift has passed away. You might notice above the sections on the stated purpose of such gifts, peripheral, and prophetic evidence. Thanks for your continued study. Take care.
 
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :
 
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof..........

Miracles still happen -and God even allows his sincere chosen servants to perform them (though they are not attention-seekers) -I have seen such, so I have little to think about -but all glory and honor is to God -no man can do such of themselves and then only if God allows it.

The two witnesses will certainly be doing miraculous things, but many do not believe those things to be literal. (Rev. 11, Dan. 12:5-13, Zec. 4)

However -false miracles will increase, so we ought not base belief on any ability or miracle, but should seek prayerfully God while he may be found and should search the scriptures to see what is truth... many will be deceived by false miracles.

God gave no time limits... the trouble is that some who seem to do the following are deceivers, and others deny such, do not have God's spirit - though they think they do, and are keeping the ways of men rather than the commandments of God.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.

...........

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Isaiah,

Regarding your point about the two witnesses of Revelation 11, you mentioned that some don't understand these to be literal. Perhaps, more to the issue is when does it describe them offering their testimony?

Notice in the text, Revelation 11:1-2 describe John being told to measure the temple. It even describes the Gentiles "trampling underfoot" the Holy City. This city is further identified in verse eight as the city "where also our Lord was crucified" (i.e. Jerusalem). Regardless of who (or what) these "witnesses" are they are described as operating while the temple stood. We know that the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. I do not dispute that miraculous spiritual gifts were still in operation at that time.

Regarding who (or what) these witnesses are, the text says, "These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4). As you pointed out, the "two olive trees" are first referred to in Zechariah 4, where in 4:14 they are identified as, "the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth." Daniel 12 may relate to the text in the fact that it refers to a time when "the daily sacrifices are ended" (i.e. the temple is destroyed). It also refers to a similar number of days (1290 Daniel 12:11; 1260 Revelation 11:3). However, the "two" mentioned there are angelic. If that is what Zechariah and Revelation are talking about it tells us nothing about gifts given to humans.

I think it is possible that the "two witnesses" may refer to the Law and the Prophets as a reference to the testimony of the Old Testament. In Matthew 11:13 Jesus personifies "the prophets and the law" in the same way, declaring that they "prophesied until John." Thanks.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, hittite1963, if you could just help me (I'm not sure where to look "above"), what is your interpretation of the phrase "when that which is perfect has come"?

thanks, hittite1963
And be blessed everyone,
eden
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hittite1963, you would say that was a miracle, don't you?

So in a few sentences, why do you think that miracles are no longer part of what the Spirit or the Word of God does?

I do have a testimony of a bornagain-type Chrsitian woman who read the Word but she died. The sheet had been pulled over her head.

But under the sheet, something else was happening. The woman suddenly saw a shaft of light coming through the window into her hospital room, and on the incoming shaft of light were writen the words of:

Psalm 107
20 He sent His word and healed them and delivered them from their destructions.

The woman under the sheet saws the words come right into her body and she pulled the sheet off her face and sat up, and scared the nurse half to death.

hittite1963, you would say that was a miracle, don't you?

with love, eden
 
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :
 
True -some do not believe Revelation 11 to be discussing future events. However...we ought to understand the church to be the spiritual temple -and John was also told to measure those who worshipped therein...

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.


As for the trampling underfoot of Jerusalem being yet future, most believe the ancient abomination of desolation to have been before Christ, and the latter to have been shortly after Christ by one or various persons or groups.
We do know that when Christ spoke of it, it was yet future.
The abomination of desolation IS the desolation of Jerusalem, and those things which are said to precede and accompany it have not yet been.....

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:

and...

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains;.....

yet these things have not been...

....and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


We can know the one (by arms standing on his part) who sets up this abomination is the same which is broken by Christ himself at his return.(Dan 11:31-45, Daniel 8:23-26, Daniel 12). Note that these things Daniel was given to write were for the time of the end...Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. ..... and that the abomination is NOT the taking away of the daily, but a separate event 1,290 days AFTER the taking away of the daily.... Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The abomination is at the end of the three and a half years Jerusalem is trodden underfoot by the gentiles. These events are not obscure historical footnotes, but events which involve the WHOLE EARTH...

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

It is in a time when Christ himself will fight NATIONS....

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

This one who is ultimately responsible for the abomination is further identified as the Assyrian...

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.

Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Isa 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
Isa 10:23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. Isa 10:24 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.
Isa 10:25 For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

It's difficult to find nations who do NOT want to trample Jerusalem. Many want to see the modern nation of Israel wiped off the map -even those in Germany we thought we had seen the last of are rising again to power,
www.kc3.co.uk/~dt/eu_army.htm

"THE idea of a pan-European economic and political union with its own defence force was conceived by SS officers according to documents released today to the Public Record Office in Kew. Maj Gen Ellersiek and Brig Mueller, Hitler's chief of staff during the Battle of the Bulge, came up with the idea as a means of keeping Nazism alive following the expected Allied victory in the Second World War."

but God has his own plans.


Anyway -that is a huge subject.....

But as for the two witnesses being angelic... with all due respect, that is an assumption. What they will do is quite similar to that which Elijah and Elisha did -not to mention many others... there is no need that they be angelic -and no biblical proof thereof.
Furthermore -they will be killed but their bodies will not be put into graves...
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Jacob wrestled an angel -but angels don't die.
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Isaiah,

What I said was that the two referred to in Daniel 12 appear to be angelic. I say that from the context in which it is these who reveal things to him (as in the earlier chapters).
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Eden,

Please note the section above entitled "Evidence From First Corinthians"--there I explain what I understand "that which is perfect" to refer to.

Regarding personal experience, we cannot base our understanding of Biblical teaching on personal experience or the experiences of others. We will be judged by the word of God, and only it can be believed with absolute confidence because it has been Divinely confirmed. Thanks.
 
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :
 
Sorry -threw Daniel 12 in there as it is representative of the two -and the time of their prophesying -as that king of fierce countenance, etc.. which (whose) takes away the daily, places the abomination, is the same in Revelation which reigns over the beast that rises from abyss, reigns 42 months (3 1/2 years, time/times/half a time, 1,260 days), overcomes the two, etc.. -not that that was them in person -my bad.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kyle , you can try if you must to reduce Yahweh into a little book called the Bible if you like but I feel so sorry for you. Religion is always the enemy of Yahweh, HE can not be contain in all the books ever written, HE can not be contained period.

HE is the same yesterday, today, forever

Job 19:25-26
• "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
• And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:"

So prophesies will cease because there is no need for prophets declaring God's word to men when we are standing in our person before God in heaven.

Likewise, in Corinthians we read that Tongues (languages) shall cease. This word translated cease for tongues is the Greek word [pauo], which also means to stop. Why will languages someday stop?

The answer is because on that great day of His coming again, we will all be like Him (1st John 3:2), and there will be no need for diverse languages. We will all be of one spiritual language. There will be no need for human tongues (languages) or of interpreters of tongues, because we will be a different creation and will understand even as we are understood.

And we are also told that knowledge shall vanish away. This word translated "vanish away" is again the Greek word [katargeo], meaning to cease. And it is very important to remember the context here.

This is clearly declaring that knowledge "in part" will vanish away or cease. In other words, when that which is perfect is come, partial knowledge (Knowledge in part) will cease, because the mystery of God will end or be finished. Again, this is proving that these verses can only come to fruition at Christ's Second Advent when knowledge is no longer partial. As indeed illustrated in verse nine:

1st Corinthians 13:9
"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."
Here God makes sure that those things that are partial are linked together. We see that we at present have partial knowledge and partial prophecy. These are the same two things that we read will cease. In speaking of these two things God inspired the word [katargeo] to be used for them both illustrating they would cease. And with verse ten, God tells us just when.

1st Corinthians 13:10
• "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
When Christ, the perfect completion of all things, comes, those things that we had in part in this world (Knowledge and prophesy) will cease. Because God will speak to us face to face and we will understand and have full knowledge of prophecy.
There is no more mystery of God. This verse is simply declaring that now (on this earth) we have partial knowledge of things, and partial understanding of prophecy because we do not know the full mystery of God. Thus cannot understand it all. But when that which is perfect [teleios] or complete is come, then all our partial knowledge and partial understanding of what is to be (prophecy and knowledge) will cease because we will understand the whole prophecy and have full knowledge. That which is Perfect refers to Christ's second advent because He is the consummation and fulfilling of all things.

Hebrews 9:11
• "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;"

Here, that word perfect is the same Greek word [teleios] as in 1st Corinthians chapter 13. He (Christ) is the perfect or complete that, when He returns, will take away all shadows, figures and partial understanding. In heaven, which is a state of absolute perfection or completion, that which is in part or imperfect shall have no part. All imperfection will vanish away as the mystery of God is finished. This is what verse ten means when it says, "when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." And verse eleven uses the analogy of human growth and understanding to illuminate this principle even further:

1st Corinthians 13:11
• "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
Here God is equating our life on this earth with being children who have "little knowledge and understanding" of the world of adults. i.e., the knowledge that we now have, compared with that which we shall have in the consummation in the Kingdom of heaven, is likened unto that which is possessed by children as compared with that of adults. And as a child is humble to trust His father's word that everything will be all right, so we need not fear as Children of God. In this world we prophesy in part and know in part and cannot understand in full, but we trust our Heavenly father that though we have child-like understanding, we all have no need to fear.
Yet the analogy is that when children grow up, they have greater knowledge, and they put away their childish things. Likewise, we are as children in knowledge and prophesy now, but when that which is perfect is come, He equates it to us growing up and putting away our childish understanding. We will then be given a spiritual heavenly body, as compared to the earthly we have now.

1st Corinthians 15:48-49
• "As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
• And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

The change God has for those of us who receive the image of the heavenly, God likens to the change from childhood to manhood. As the speech, thoughts and goals of the child give way to that of a man, so is our moving from this plain of existence to the next. And this is expounded upon "clearly" in verse twelve of 1st Corinthians chapter 13:

1st Corinthians 13:12
• "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

This explanation should clear away any doubt.

Because it confirms to us that it's speaking of how, now, as spiritual children, we see as through a glass darkly. The Greek word translated darkly is [en ainigma], and means in a type of riddle or something that is unclear. It's from the root that we get the word 'enigma' from. To use an analogy, it is as if in this life we are looking through a clouded or frosted glass where we can see only outlines and shadows and not the sharp picture.

The things of God are somewhat a mystery or enigma to us now. What we see is like enigmatic forms and shapes that only give us "some" idea of what we can expect. We are looking at that which is identifiable, but not enough to see all of God's wonderful and marvelous truths. This is how we see God now, but then (when that which is perfect is come) shall we see God 'face to face.' As when one looks upon something "in person," clearly, and not through an obscure or darkened medium.

Exodus 33:20-22
• "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
• And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
• And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:"

Man can only know God in part in this world, lest he die. But when Christ returns, then we will be changed and see God face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. For then we shall be in the literal presence and Glory of the Lord, without fear of being consumed. Christ is the perfect, the completion, coming at the end of the world, showing Himself the true Tabernacle in heaven, opened for God's people. Then shall we see the Glory of the Lord, and then shall we be like Him.

1st John 3:2
• "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Here again is the mystery in that "it does not yet appear what we shall be." i.e., here is the knowledge in part, or partial knowledge. But God declares that when He shall appear, "then" we shall see Him and be like Him. We shall see Him face to face just as He is in all His Glory, for if we are on this earth at that time we shall be changed in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye into our 'spiritual' bodies wherein this is possible.

Thus in understanding all these things we can discern how, now, we see through a glass, darkly. But how, then, face to face. We see how, now, we know in part. But, then, shall we know even as also we are known.

..and we have the conclusion of the matter in this final verse, thirteen:

1st Corinthians 13:13
• "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Now, that is to say, in this life, there remains or continues faith, hope and charity. Faith, the substance of things hoped for, which is the evidence of things not yet seen. And Charity, which is the greatest of these, forever abides in us because it never fails.
 
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :
 
Christ..... said..... whosoever.

Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever (G3739, G302) shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

If one does not believe it possible, they will certainly not do it -and should they even see it, would not see it as such.
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Isaiah & becauseHelives

I have tried to fully explain what I understand the Scriptures to teach on this subject. I have tried to explain why I believe that the Scriptures refute the positions which you both advocate. I'm not sure what I can say further on these matters that I have not said above. I say to you with love and respect that I believe you are mistaken, but I will (as always) continue to study and test the things which I teach and believe by the standard of God's word. I hope and pray that you will do the same.
 
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :
 
[thumbsup2]
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
John Lennon said, on one of the Beatle songs, "See the people standing there, dissagree, and never win, and wonder why they don't get in my door." Be do be da be do I'm fix'n..... Well!

From the outside looking in, one cannot see what it is. You have to be 'in' to know. Many aren't. It looks strange to an outsider, and even to an insider sometimes.

So I am wondering lately, there are many parts of the same body: Is God hiding something from one part that He is revealing to another? Everybody is not Pentecostal, and wherein I once thought that you had to be so to get where He is taking you, I have realized that there believers who are without this gift (which changes the understanding). I cannot say that they are tares.
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Michael,

Thank you for your tone. It is certainly my prayer and hope that on the day of judgment I will not be counted amnong the tares. Take care.
 
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :
 
Does make you wonder.

Knowledge is certainly important, but sincerity more so.

Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

You don't have to know an extremely great deal to do the above.

If one has a right heart with God, God can teach them the rest in their time. If we seek first his kingdom and righteousness, all else will be added.

It is definitely motivational to see phrases like "strait gate", "little flock", "few there be that find it", etc...
Truth is that some who belive they are Christ's are not. Every group thinks they are, but some are obviously mistaken. This is not to say that they are doomed, as only the firstfruits are called in this time. The majority of mankind -many of whom never heard of Christ -will recieve life later. Anyway -another subject altogether.

Sorry if my tone seems harsh -I try to be clear, and I know it comes across the wrong way at times.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Well, some people go to church all of their life, but have no interest in Jesus. These people, anyone can spot. Yet they think that they are saved. Others do take it seriously and bear some fruit of showing. But even sincerity will not save anyone, or gain them Brownie Points! I have said it before, sincerity is work of the flesh. It feels good to the believer, but it adds nothing to God. Faith is the only thing that adds something to God, and even then it adds nothing to Him, but allows the believer to be 'added to' by God.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
[happyhappy] That's profound!
 
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :
 
Michael,
I'm not sure. It sounds more arrogant than "profound".
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
The Pharisees thought that Jesus was arrogant. How can I be 'arrogant' if it is not something that I 'do'. Since I cannot take credit for it as though I did it, then there can be no arrogance. [happyhappy]

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

They who are lifted up in their own hearts, suppose that they 'add' something to God, and they do persecute His children!

Faith is the only thing that adds something to God, and even then it adds nothing to Him, but allows the believer to be 'added to' by God.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Faith is the only thing that adds something to God, and even then it adds nothing to Him, but allows the believer to be 'added to' by God.

....and it is not of ourselves.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
The Apostle Paul said beware their are men preaching another gospel other that the one we preach, Paul said stay away from them, their message will kill you...

never forget a little leave is all in need to ruin the whole lump.

There is not one single soldiery Spiritual thing a child of Yahweh can do for the Kingdom of Yahweh without Yahweh providing a miracle. (not the simplest act of giving a drink of water)

Anything done without the complete direction of the Holy Spirit , learning to follow the Spirit exactly the way Yahshua did it, because any work of our on results in works of the flesh (wood, hay and stubble, to be burn up in the end).
 
Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :
 
Dear friends,
quote:
Mt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Mt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Lu 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign.
Signs follow the believer. They do not lead him.
Most of the time, when you talk to people who hold the position of the Hittite, they will present the argument that they have not seen this or that kind of miracle. Thus, they declare at the outset that they do not have New Testament faith because they walk by sight, and not by faith.
quote:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
The people of Jesus' own country were like the Hittite, and it amazed Jesus.
quote:
Mr 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
People who say that God can do whatever He wants to do forget that, on earth, men have dominion. They can limit the Holy One of Israel by believing He is a liar.
Jesus' own disciples had trouble casting out a demon because of insufficient faith.
quote:
Mt 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Jesus mentioned littleness of faith several times.
quote:
Mt 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Mt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Mt 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Mt 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Lu 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
When I see long excuses for powerlessness, I am reminded of how men sneak into the fellowship of the believers wanting to make a living off of the saints but having nothing to offer but excuses.
Rather than let someone deceive me on any count (not just the issue of miracles), I resort to the words of the New Testament.
quote:
1 Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
In other words, if someone begins adding to the words of Jesus (which always, eventually, forces one to take away from the words of Jesus since He is a very narrow Way), I know things about his character.
Below, are the words of Jesus. They are not my words. They were not authored by Calvin, Luther, Huss, Knox, or any of a long list of names of men who have done some good for our understanding of the New Testament.
quote:
Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Look at a comparison of the word translated 'believe' and the word translated 'faith'.
believe-4100 pisteuo
faith-4102 pistis
The first is the verb. The second is the noun.
The scriptures that have been shown in this post, so far, are, mostly, informational (historical, wisdom, or prophetic). As many of you already know, I resist building a doctrine upon informational scriptures because they are the easiest to wrestle to one's own destruction.
I believe that imperative scriptures are given so that we will know what to do. The informational scriptures help us to understand the reason for the imperative, but they never countermand the commandment.
That being said, I refer you to this commandment of Jesus.
quote:
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
This commands us to teach the nations to observe all things whatsoever Jesus had commanded the apostles. I say we are commanded to do this because it was self-referencing.
Look at other commands that it references.
quote:
Mt 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Lu 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Lu 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
Now, read a commandment by the Apostle Paul.
quote:
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The things that Paul taught were to be held fast. Look at one of the things that came through his epistle.
quote:
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
13:1 ¶ Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 ¶ Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Covet to prophesy. Covet, earnestly, faith, hope and charity. Don't forbid speaking in tongues.
Faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God- not by hearing and hearing the words of those with little faith.
quote:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, scythewieldor. You said
quote:
People who say that God can do whatever He wants to do forget that, on earth, men have dominion. They can limit the Holy One of Israel by believing He is a liar.
And, if God wants to, God can destroy the earth and all that is therein just with the fire of His Glory. But if God wants to PRESERVE the earth, at least for now, God has to be careful that He does NOT destroy the earth by His Presence. God is limited, at it were, by the building blocks used to make the earth.

But on the other hand God is so big that He could destroy that which is (including the earth), and co-immediately recreate something in its very place which is whatever it is. So in that sense God is NOT limited.

But assuming that God likes to rest on the weekends, there is little incentive for God to constantly destroy and recreate the earth and its inhabitants.

Indeed, God has NOT yet destroyed the earth, only flooded it so far, and sent a few targeted earthquakes and sent a few targeted armies to "do a job for Him" in the earth.

So mainly God at THIS time if not in the business of destroying and recreating the earth, and that means that God limits Himself right now by the creation that He first set in motion.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create a new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

scythewieldor, you said
quote:
People who say that God can do whatever He wants to do forget that, on earth, men have dominion. They can limit the Holy One of Israel by believing He is a liar.
And God must limit Himself also to accomplish His purposes in the earth, and God chooses whom He can use for this task or that task.

with love,
eden
 
Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :
 
Dear Eden,
Not wishing to let the topic drift too far, I still need to say that I believe I said it exactly right.
quote:
Mt 9:28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.

Mt 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Mr 5:34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

Mr 10:52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

Lu 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Lu 8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

Lu 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

Lu 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
God can not deny Himself. Himself CHOSE to run the earth according to His partnership with Adam.
quote:
Ge 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23 ¶ And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty’s sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty’s sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake.
33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
In terms of power, did God have what it took to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? Well, He did it.
But, before He did, He negotiated with Abraham. Abraham had dominion on earth. He believed God. He had right standing with God.
Jesus, the seed of Abraham, now, has the dominion over earth. Yet, in His patience, He puts up with the choices of the deceived. Men still have the ability to reject His rule.
quote:
Lk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
This story is chock full of examples of the way the Lord allows men to exercise dominion. But, keeping in mind your example of the ability to destroy the earth, let's look at who, actually, exercises dominion in a way that destroys something God is said to have loved.
quote:
Re 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Life is a property of things under the influence of Jesus' words. When men refuse to speak the words of Jesus to every creature in the whole earth, those creatures begin to die. When the animate dead (what a concept, but, when Jesus said, "Let the dead bury the dead", He acknowledged the condition of the animate dead) choose to kill off those who speak life, they destroy the earth.
quote:
Lk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
There are many people who are teaching God's elect their own particular "little faith" form of religion. When you agree to have honor with those men, they will license you to make money off of their "little faith" form of religion.
quote:
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 ¶ Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
By the Spirit we know what has been freely given to us. All things have been given to us. All things.
Therefore, you don't need a license to preach to every creature that which the Greeks think is foolishness.
I love the Father in heaven. He sends the Spirit to me.
I love the Spirit. He leads me into all Truth.
I love the Truth. He sets me free.
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
It was interesting to me when reading your post, that this passage of scripture says quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....rather than saying: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in water, the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

That is not what it says. It says to baptize in the Name. Here is a good example of 'you don't do it'. You go through the motions as He leads, but He does the doing. I mean, can you baptize in His name? No! He baptizes into His name, by His Spirit, but you participate, by 'obedience of faith': that is to say, believing!
 
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :
 
Just curious... but if one thinks that God's servants can not do miraculous things, do they believe the following says those who are false can do things which are more than human -by the power of Satan, of course -though they be deceiving -or do you think the following to be figurative or events in the past...(?)

...Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

...or would they -should they believe God's servants can not do miraculous things -but that Satan's can ...see ANY miraculous deed as evidence of Satanic influence...

and if so... why would one think God would allow Satan's servants to do miraculous things but not his own servants.... basically -what would be the purpose of God allowing -then not allowing -his servants to do miraculous things -and where does it say he no longer allows them -or do those who believe such base the belief on the fact that they have seen no miraculous things done????
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Isaiah,

That's a fair question. My understanding of the book of Revelation is that it addresses (with the exception of the last few chapters of the book) things which were fulfilled very soon in connection with the persecution of Rome against Christians. I conclude this because chapter seventeen makes these identifications:
1. The "beast" and the "harlot" sit on seven mountains (17:9). i.e. the famed seven mountains of Rome).
2. The woman is identified as "that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth" (17:18). When John wrote he was exiled in connection with the first worldwide persecution of Christians under the emperor Domitian, the ruler of the "city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Then you are preterist!
 
Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Preterist theology is a radical departure from other contemporary positions. How many other systems teach that the Second Coming of Christ already took place, and that all prophecy has been fulfilled? None.
 
Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :
 
Dear friends,
People have been interpreting the Babylon of the Revelation as Rome from before the 5th Century AD. That means Catholics were directing attention to Rome in order to explain the Revelation. In those days, they were saying that the old Roman government under Caesar was the harlot.
The problem is that there were many things written of Babylon in the Old Testament that can NOT be explained with that misdirection.
Friends, Babylon was the name of a city and the region around that city on the Euphrates. There was a very large Jewish presence in that area until, at least, the 10th Century AD.
The Babylonian Talmud was compiled in, guess, Babylon after 70 AD. Ezekiel 17 shows us that a king of Judah became a covenant partner with Babylon. Not only that, but the sons of that king were recognized as "exilarchs" in that region until they moved their court to Baghdad around the 11th or 12th Centuries AD.
The Babylon of the Revelation (prophesied, I believe, before 70 AD) was about to have it's seventh and last king. One of those seven kings was, or is, to become the eighth. Rome had several more after that.
quote:
Re 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
The Babylon of the Revelation was the mother of harlots and abominations.
quote:
Re 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Although Rome may have been a harlot and worshipped abominations, she was not the mother. Jerusalem and Tyre, both of which were established before Rome, were recognized harlots. Therefore, the mother of harlots and abominations must be older than, even, those cities.
Friends, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth was the city of Babel.
Not only that, but there is a mysterious group that strongly identifies with Babylon which uses the the title "Mother Jurisdiction of the World". This mysterious group is religiously promiscuous putting forth all that all religions have the same origin.
Before the writings of the New Testament were even finished, it had been recognized that men had snuck into the church in order to spy out our liberty. The Bible makes it clear that they had, already, established false doctrines in the churches.
That is sufficient evidence for me to doubt the interpretation of Babylon as Rome. Great familiarity with the Old Covenant writings concerning Babylon have convinced me that the Church has been subjected to a warfare that was most insidious.
If you are trying to destroy an enemy, one tactic is to keep yourself hidden. Remain unknown- a mystery.
Others are to fight from within the walls of your enemies camp by disseminating disinformation promoting in-fighting.
How many of you knew that Babylonia, after Jerusalem was destroyed, was the only headquarters, for a thousand years, of the people that crucified Jesus and opposed the Gospel?
How many of you knew that that people was ruled by a descendant of Solomon through King Jehoiachin throughout that same period?
How many of you knew that these "exilarchs" were the descendants of the king that had made covenant with the king of Babylon?
How many of you know their is a connection between a mysterious organization (that uses Jewish figures in their rites in order to direct men back to Babylon) and Babel through Gen 11:3?
How many of you have made the connection between Babylon and the mercantile world?
How many of you can see Babylon ruling the kings of the nations through their national debts?
How many of you know that Babylon is the place where Hammurabi encoded the laws that protected the merchants of the earth?
quote:
Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Re 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Re 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
How many of you know that the love of money is the root of all evil- even the sun worship that some say characterizes Rome?
How many of you realize Mystery Babylon is still with us, but, being a mystery, not the way most suspect?
Hopefully, that will soon change.
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Church Of Christ gospel is another gospel...

Kyle I told you early on I could not consider you a brother because of your doctrine... I tell you again you need to get out of the demon doctrines of the Church of Christ.

the subtleness with which you twist scripture is so cunning.

add one word here, take away here and to the undiscerning seem possible you could be right.

but you do not teach line upon line....

May Yahweh help you!
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Carol, and others,

I have never identified myself as a "preterist"--Michael did. Yes I believe that most of Revelation has been fulfilled in the persecution of Rome, but I do not believe that Jesus has already returned. I am simply a Christian.

I find it very interesting that for people who all claim that the Holy Spirit is directly leading you, you are so quick to make incorrect assumptions about what I do and do not believe. Is the Holy Spirit leading you in the wrong direction?

Please don't assume things about my beliefs beyond what I have actually written. If you disagree--fine. If you wish to attack my beliefs --fine. But it is neither godly nor loving to make incorrect assumptions and then build "straw-men" arguments to defend those assumptions.

I propose that we let this topic drop, and we will pick up our discussion in another area at another time. I have said what I believe and all of you have said what you believe. I will not be able to post for awhile. When I resume then you all can address whatever you care to in another topic. Thanks.
 
Posted by Isaiah (Member # 6699) on :
 
It was just a question -while I always want to get folks thinking -I was just curious -I didn't mean to start a whole 'thing' here.
 
Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :
 
Isaiah,

It was a fair question, and it does have a bearing on the position I take. "No harm--no foul." Take care.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
hittite1963 said, "I do not believe that Jesus has already returned."

eden here: Also the mount of Olives has not yet split in two, and the Dead Sea is still, dead:

Zechariah 14
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them {of the waters} toward the former sea {the Dead Sea}, and half of them {of the waters} toward the hinder sea {the Mediterranean Sea}: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Ezekiel 47
8 Then said he to me, These waters issue out toward the east country and go down into the desert and go into the sea {into the Dead Sea}; which, being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that everything that lives, which moves, wheresoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come there: for they shall be healed; and everything shall live where the river comes.

Ezekiel 47:10
And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand along it from Engedi even to Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

This also has not happened yet. Many things may have happened back there in the 1st century, but the above things have not yet happened.

Neither have the house of Israel and the house of Judah come up out of their graves in the countries where the LORD has driven them:

Ezekiel 37:12
Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves and bring you into the land of Israel.

That also has not happened yet. And when the mount of Olives splits in two, it will be a miracle. And when Israel and Judah come up out of their graves, it will be a miracle.

with love, eden
 
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
It wasn'tan accusation! [happyhappy] It was a question (except, it seemed to be a declaration of sorts, yore confession).

Actually, I would encourage you concerning scripture, that it turns our attention towards Jesus. Jesus is the word that we read, an epistle written on our hearts. We read Jesus. The written word helps in this. If our attention is directed anywhere else (such as in doing) then it is misdirected............ Amen? Amen!
 




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