Christian Message Boards: Practical Chrisitanity: How can Christians justify going into debt?

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Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :

Dear friends,
When Jesus said that no man can serve two masters, He knew that Proverbs had this to say about debt:

quote:
Pr 22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

He, also, said to teach the gentiles to lend hoping for nothing again. How can you borrow from the gentiles teaching them to lend hoping for nothing again?
Besides that, Paul delivered this decree:

quote:
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

...And this one:

quote:
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

You can't go into debt without breaking this decree.
I don't care what your theology is if your attitude towards debt makes you a servant of men because then you have to say the thing the gets your lender off your back.

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

You raise an interesting issue. Certainly it is best for a person to avoid debt as much as possible. Scores of people have allowed their lives to become overwhelmed with the burden of growing debt to such a degree that their family, faith, and future have become enslaved to that debt.

With that said, the question is: is going in debt to any degree sinful? To answer this we should consider several issues:
(1) Mosaic law restricted, but did not prohibit lending at interest. The Israelite could lend to his fellow Israelite but could not charge interest, although he could charge interest to a Gentile (Exod. 22:25; Lev. 25:36; 23:19; 23:20).
(2) The Law of Christ does not restate this law, even though collecting interest is referred to in parables of Jesus. In the Parable of the Talents (Matthew) or Minas (Luke) the wicked servant is rebuked for not depositing his master's money with the bankers so that he could have his money back "with interest" (Matthew 25:27; Luke 19:23). This parable illustrates the importance of the Christian using what God has given them--would Jesus illustrate the Christian life of faithfulness with something that is sinful?
(3) Your points about being a servant to a lender are vaild, but Scripture does not absolutely condemn servitude. Instruction is given to masters, not to free their servants but to treat them properly (see Ephesians 6:5-9).

I think that the command "owe no man any thing" is a relative term. Romans 13:7 teaches that we must "render to all their due" whether it is taxes, customs, or honor. If it is sin to "owe" anyone then citizenship in a nation of taxation would be sin. Further, Paul offered to pay Philemon (a brother in Christ) whatever Onesimus (his servant but also a brother in Christ) might owe him (Philemon 17-19). We can scarcely imagine that Paul was offering to share in something that was sinful.

The idea is that we must never allow ourselves to become indebted to anyone or anything to such a degree that it interferes with service to God. It is in that sense that we cannot serve two masters.

Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :

Dear friend,
Here is a commandment of Jesus.

quote:
Lu 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Knowing that Jesus gave this commandment to His disciples, you must recognize that the parable that mentions lending is just a story by which we can gain a better understanding of a hard-to-grasp concept. That concept is that Jesus's wisdom is a treasure.

quote:
Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
Pr 16:16 How much better is it to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

Therefore,

Since the parable is about investing the wisdom of Jesus, and
Since the wisdom of Jesus says lend hoping for nothing again (neither interest nor principle), then

you can't use the parable to justify lending for interest.
However, that is not the same thing as borrowing money.
Jesus gave this commandment as well.

quote:
Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

How can you borrow money from the gentiles while teaching them to lend hoping for nothing again?
The commandment to owe no man can't mean anything but 'owe no man'.
The Way is very narrow, and our earthly fathers have raised us to be comfortable way outside The Way. And we are unwilling to jump back into the center of The Way. We would rather think that, some how, the roughness of the ground we walk is the same as the clearly defined Way of the Lord.

quote:
Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

1 Cor 6:9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Ga 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

If going into debt is the same as taking on a master besides Jesus, and,
If you know it is good to have no master but Jesus, and
If it is a sin to know to do good and, then, not do it, then,

It MUST be, to some degree, sinful.

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

I appreciate your points, although I disagree with your conclusion.

I would offer one final point: Much of your argument rests on Luke 6:35 "lend, hoping for nothing again." Jesus uses the word "lend" from the Greek daneizo which Stong's defines:

quote:
to loan on interest; reflexively to borrow: - borrow, lend

Jesus doesn't say here "give" but "lend." Is Jesus teaching that we can assist someone else in sin? In Matthew 5:42 He does use the word "give" but notice what He goes on to say, "Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away." If going in debt is a sin, how can the Christian participate in "borrowing" to another person?

In both texts the issue is not the borrowing but the attitude of the one who lends. The Christan is to lend not "hoping" for a return--and not "turn away" from one who wants to borrow (not take). If it is a sin this would be participating in sin.

Posted by scythewieldor (Member # 6830) on :

Dear friend,
Ahh. Now, we are going through the mental exercises necessary for sensing the direction of the Spirit. This is where the Word acts like a sword that separates soul from spirit.

quote:
Lu 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

Here, Jesus says sinners lend to sinners to receive as much again. In other words, the common lending practice makes sinners of both the lender and the borrower. Lending expecting to receive as much again includes you in the sameness of the sinners.
In order to teach the gentiles to observe the things Christ commanded His disciples, we must teach by example to lend hoping for nothing in return.
If we are borrowing from those who expect to have usury, then, they must get there usury and we must waste our resources as poor stewards of the wisdom of God. Our resources so dissipated, we can not lend in a way that teaches the gentiles anything of the will of God.
We put the bushel basket over our lamp.
In this is the sin. We are disobedient to the One that bought us. We are serving men, and not God.
If we lend as those who hope for nothing again, then, we change the lending market.
As the righteous competition in that market, we force the gentiles to begin to lend in closer accord with the will of our Father in heaven. Thus, if the lending that is according to the will of our Father in heaven does not make us the master of the borrower, the borrower does not sin.

quote:
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications <3657> corrupt good manners.

So, our communications (homilia), our sameness, becomes like our Father when we lend expecting nothing again. Our sameness becomes like the world when we borrow from gentiles.
Thus, we are commanded to lend, and not to owe.

Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on :

I believe allowing ourselves to get into unreasonable debt is a sin. The Bible gives us the tools to meet our every need and not to be struggling financially, but many Christians circles believe it is a sin to talk about living comfortably. Another favourite ploy of the enemy.