Christian Message Boards: The Sower And The Soils

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Mark 4:3-8(KJV)

3Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

Be Diligent-Mark by Warren W. Wiersbe

The sower and the soils

This parable helped the disciples understand why Jesus was not impressed by the large crowds that followed Him. He knew that most of them would never produce fruit from changed lives, because the Word He was teaching them was like seed falling into poor soil.

The seed represents God’s Word (Luke 8:11) and the sower is the servant of God who shares that Word with others (see 1 Cor. 3:5-9). The human heart is like soil: it must be prepared to receive the seed before that seed can take root and produce a harvest. Like seed, the Word is alive and able to produce spiritual fruit, but the seed must be planted and cultivated before that harvest will come.

As in that day, so today, there are four kinds of hearts and they respond to God’s message in four different ways.

The hard heart (Mark 4:4, 15) resists the Word of God and makes it easy for Satan (the birds) to snatch it away. Soil becomes hard when too many feet tread on it. Those who recklessly “open their hearts” to all kinds of people and influences are in danger of developing hard hearts (see Prov. 4:23). Hard hearts must be “plowed up” before they can receive the seed, and this can be a painful experience (Jer. 4:3; Hosea 10:12).

The shallow heart (vv. 5-6, 16-17). This heart is like thin soil on a rock, very typical to Palestine. Since there is no depth, whatever is planted cannot last because it has no roots. This represents the “emotional hearer” who joyfully accepts God’s Word but does not really understand the price that must be paid to become a genuine Christian. There may be great enthusiasm for several days or weeks; but when persecution and difficulties begin, the enthusiasm wanes and the joy disappears. It is easy for fallen human nature to counterfeit “religious feelings” and give a professed Christian a feeling of false confidence.

The crowded heart (vv. 7, 18-19). This heart pictures the person who receives the Word but does not truly repent and remove the “weeds” out of his or her heart. This hearer has too many different kinds of “seeds” growing in the soil—worldly cares, a desire for riches, a lust for things—and the good seed of the Word has no room in which to grow. To change the image, this person wants to walk the “broad way” and the “narrow way” at the same time (Matt. 7:13-14); and it cannot be done.

The fruitful heart (vv. 8, 20). This heart pictures the true believer, because fruit—a changed life—is the evidence of true salvation (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 5:19-23). The other three hearts produced no fruit, so we conclude that they belong to persons who have never been born again. Not all true believers are equally as productive; but from every genuine Christian’s life, there will be some evidence of spiritual fruit.

Each of the three fruitless hearts is influenced by a different enemy: the hard heart—the devil himself snatches the seed; the shallow heart—the flesh counterfeits religious feelings; the crowded heart—the things of the world smother the growth and prevent a harvest. These are the three great enemies of the Christian: the world, the flesh, and the devil (Eph. 2:1-3).

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

Carol,

You make some very good observations about the Parable of the Soils (I've usually heard it called the Parable of the Sower). This is one of the most important parables Jesus told. I say this because it is one of the only parables in all three of the synoptic gospels, and because Jesus himself says, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?" (Mark 4:13).

I would challenge you to think about one of the points you made. You said,

quote:
The other three hearts produced no fruit, so we conclude that they belong to persons who have never been born again.

However, in the parable Jesus Himself tells us of the seed on the stony ground "immediately it sprang up" but because it had no root it "withered away" (vs. 5). In Luke's account, it is said of the seed sown among thorns, "thorns sprang up with it and choked it" (Luke 8:7). I don't think that we can conclude from this that (at least the second and third types of soil) represent those who were never born again--rather they represent those who did not "hold fast the confession of [their] hope without wavering" (Hebrews 10:23). They, like the illustration used by Peter, like a dog returned to their own vomit (II Peter 2:22). As such, the parable warns the Christian not to be shallow and not to let other things choke the influence of the word, lest they to fail to bring forth fruit, wither away and be burned in the fires of hell.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hello Hittite1963,

I'm pleased to meet you. I understand that you are a pastor, and I hope you will enjoy your time at the Christian BBS.

This post is quoted from Warren Wiersbe. I think the question is does the individual bear fruit or not. Since it is the Holy Spirit Who bears fruit through us, then one who does not bear fruit does not know the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Welcome to the forum. I will look forward to your reply.

God bless you. [Smile]

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

Carol,

I apologize, I missed the fact that you were quoting Wiersbe. It is nice to meet you as well. I've seen a number of your posts. I look forward to discussing the word of God with you on the message board.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

hittite1963,

No need to apologize. I forgot to put Wiersbe's name on it, (I fixed that). And I welcome your thoughts.

I am fascinated by Wiersbe's commentary. He writes some unusual interpretations of the parables. To me, it seems that he reveals patterns and meanings that are deeper than most other commentators.

quote:
As such, the parable warns the Christian not to be shallow and not to let other things choke the influence of the word, lest they to fail to bring forth fruit, wither away and be burned in the fires of hell.

Are you saying the works will be tested and the worthless things will be burned up, but the believer survives, although as through a fire?

Or, are you saying that the Christian will be burned in the fires of hell? If he is a false Christian, a professing Christian, then he is not really a Christian at all. But a real Christian, a new creation in Christ, born again into the family of God, would not be shallow or choked with the cares of the world to the point where he bore no spiritual fruit at all, would he? It's difficult for me to imagine someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit going that far astray, at least for any length of time.

As a pastor, do you know of Christians like that? I'm sure you have more experience and understanding than I do as I am a student.

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

Carol,

Thanks for your comments. I would encourage you to take a look at John 15:1-8 on the matter of bearing fruit. There we find...

* "Every branch IN ME [i.e. in Christ--a Christian] that does not bear fruit He TAKES AWAY" (15:2). "Takes away"="cast out"-in vs.6. We also find...

* One cannot bear fruit "unless it abides in the vine" (15:4). Christ is the Vine (15:1). And...

* "If anyone does NOT ABIDE IN ME [i.e. they were in Christ, but didn't remain there] he is CAST OUT AS A BRANCH [i.e. he is no longer a branch--he is no longer in Chrsit] and is withered, and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned" (15:6). This parallels the wording of the Parable of the Sower--i.e. one in Christ can be in Christ but fail to abide in Christ, bear fruit, and thus they are lost in hell. On the otherhand, God would have it to be that...

* "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit" (15:8). The influence of the Holy Spirit should lead the Christian to bear fruit. However, a Christian can refuse that influence by refusing to allow Christ's "words to abide in" them (15:7).

I appreciate your interest in the word of God. Keep it up!

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Then this is salvation by works?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

John 15:6

“Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” (NRSV)

Life Application Bible Commentary: John

Each branch that does not continue to abide in the vine is removed from the vine. The branch seems physically attached, but is not organically part of the plant because it does not participate in the life-giving flow of the vine. Sooner or later, that branch will drop off and have to be discarded. Three traditional interpretations have tried to identify who these discarded branches might represent:

1. For some, these branches are true believers who have lost their salvation because they were cut off from Christ and burned. Some think this is also what is described in Romans 11:20-22 and Hebrews 6:8. This view challenges those whose security had become a point of pride. However, it leaves a much larger group (who believe that “something more is required” of them) in a constant state of turmoil and doubt and also contradicts other passages like John 3:16, 36; 5:24; 10:28-29; Romans 8:1.

2. For others, these burned branches are Christians who will lose rewards but not salvation on the day of judgment (1 Corinthians 3:15). But this is probably not true because Jesus was speaking of dead branches. This view would actually fit better under the idea of extreme pruning (discipline), rather than the picture of separation and loss that Jesus gives.

3. For still others, these burned branches refer to those professing to be Christians who, like Judas Iscariot, are not genuinely saved and therefore are judged. Judas, a disciple of Jesus, seemed like a branch, but he did not truly believe. Therefore, he was cut off; his fate was like that of a dead branch. Given John’s concern to make committed disciples of his readers and Jesus’ goal to bring people into an “abiding” relationship with himself, this view provides a healthy balance. It keeps the decision of destiny as God’s responsibility while preserving an emphasis on our responsibility to “remain” in the relationship. In any case, the verse is not so much aimed at creating discomfort and doubt as it is in teaching the importance of daily connectedness with Christ.

I believe that they are professing Christians. [updown]

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

Carol,

You asked if this is salvation by works? Absolutely not! The Bible teaches, "For by grace you have been saved, and that not of youselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). When one becomes separated from God because of sin, there is no amount of good works that can ever merit forgiveness.

However, there is a difference between works of merit and works of obedience. God has set the conditions by which we must accept His wonderful offer of grace. It is our duty to meet these conditions. Jesus, when asked "Increase our faith" (Luke 17:5) went on to tell his disciples a parable which He explained saying, "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you were commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do'" (Luke 17:10).

Unfortunately, man in his struggle to understand the relationship between faith and works has formulated various systems to try and explain this. All such theological systems of human beings ultimately fall short. But, when we look simply at what the Scripture says it is nowhere near as complicated.

In the text in John 15 Jesus said these are branches "in Me" (John 15:2). We can't say they are not in Christ when Jesus says they are. In the text Jesus sets the condition that such a one must "abide in Me" (John 15:4). Part of this He defines as allowing His words to abide in us (John 15:7).

If we look at this and the Parable of the Sower, simply conidering what the word of God itself says we don't have to say these aren't really in Christ (that's not what the Bible says). We can simply accept that in both texts a condition of abiding in Christ is bearing fruit. This fruit doesn't merit anything. Rather, when we have done it "we are unprofitable servants, we have done what was our duty to do."

Thanks for your desire to dig into the word of God and understand it.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

So! May I?

The real question, and the true discovery is in what it means to 'abide', if we can discover it.

quote:
Next:
quote:
Part of this He defines as allowing His words to abide in us (John 15:7).

"So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you were commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do'" (Luke 17:10).

Indeed, we have added nothing to Him by doing these things which He has commanded, which involve obedience of faith and belief, which would entail 'abiding', 'receiving', being sent (which He empowers), and so on!

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hi Michael! Welcome, welcome!

hittite1963

John 15:6

“Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.” (NRSV)

It must be frustrating for a pastor who has spent years in school and internship, and works hard and well with your congregation, when someone like me buys some books and then says "Yeah, but..." every time you turn around. I sincerely hope you view this as a welcome challenge. After all, that's what a forum is all about.

Thank you for your patience and help.

So, anyway, whoever does not abide...

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

Carol & Michael,

No it doesn't frustrate me. I believe that any time we dig deeper into the word of God to understand what our Father in heaven would teach us it is a wonderful thing!

If it helps any, the word translated "abide" throughout John 15:1-8 is the Greek word meno which Strong defines to mean "remain, abide" (3306). Our word remain comes from this word (through Latin).*

Scripture itself defines this for us:

* Jesus teaches, "If you abide in My word, you are my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).

* He taught, "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love" (John 15:10).

* The Holy Spirit taught through John, "He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" (I John 2:6).

* He explains further that one will "abide in the Son and in the Father"--"if what you heard from the beginning abides in you" (I John 2:24 Note: I reversed the order by way of explanation).

* John teaches, "whoever abides in Him does not sin" (I John 3:6). This doesn't mean that the Christian can't sin (see I John 2:1) but that the accepted conduct of a Christian is not sin.

* In addition, John tells us that to "abide" in Christ we keep His commandments (I John 3:24a), allow His Spirit to dwell in us (I John 3:24b; 4:13), love one another (I John 4:12; 4:16), confess Jesus as the Son of God (I John 4:15).

* But it is possible to not "abide" in Christ after starting out in Christ. John teaches, "Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son" (II John 9).

One final point--does any of this add anything to God? Michael--as you pointed out, all works of obedience in no way give to God something He lacks. Paul said that God is not "worhipped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things" (Acts 17:25). All of our works of obedience are simply ways in which we as weak and sinful creatures accept the mercy of a loving God. Will we fall short? Yes. But it is our duty to obey--it is God's grace to be merciful.

Thanks for your interest in spiritual things.

----------
* Latin manere meaning "stay" is the direct root of this word, but there is a linquistic relationship between this an meno.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Be Transformed-John 13-21

Okay! Here's more from Wiersbe:

A true branch, united with the vine, will always bear fruit. Not every branch bears a bumper crop, just as not every field has a bumper harvest (Matt. 13:8, 23), but there is always fruit where there is life. If there is no fruit, the branch is worthless and it is cast away and burned. I do not believe our Lord is teaching here that true believers can lose their salvation, for this would contradict what He taught in John 6:37 and 10:27-30. It is unwise to build a theological doctrine on a parable or allegory. Jesus was teaching one main truth—the fruitful life of the believer—and we must not press the details too much. Just as an unfruitful branch is useless, so an unfruitful believer is useless; and both must be dealt with. It is a tragic thing for a once-fruitful believer to backslide and lose his privilege of fellowship and service. If anything, John 15:6 describes divine discipline rather than eternal destiny. “There is [for believers] a sin unto death” (1 John 5:16).

Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :

He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. ~ 1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)

.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hi David!

quote:
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar

To me this says he is a professing Christian.

The parable of the Sower and the Soils is about spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It says some will reject the gospel message, and some will accept it.

Those who accept it produce fruit. Those who do not produce fruit are liars, or false Christians, or professing Christians. If they are true Christians, they need to be disciplined, pruned, to start bearing fruit.

But I struggle against the thought that a true Christian, who has the Spirit of Jesus Christ in his heart, would ever be sent to hell.

John 6:39 (NLT)

39And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.

Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :

I just wanted to stop in and say that I like the spirit that I have sensed on this thread. It is wonderful to experience christian's who have difering views yet are kind and show brotherly love toward one another.

May God bless each of you and yours

Forever His

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Forever His

Will you join us? [Smile]

Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :

Oh... well thank you Carol... I guess that I do have an interest in this topic since it is the one that I read first [Big Grin]

I will come back in a few moments with a couple questions...

I will look forward to your viewpoint

Thank you

Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :

I am looking at Luke 8: 11-13 for now.

New KJV

8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
8:12 Those by the way side are the ones who hear; then the devil comes, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Now those who are by the wayside I am sure that we have all seen... the devil comes and takes away the seed before it has a chance to germinate. And it is aways so sad to see that happen...

Now if the New King James is correct... It says that the ones on the rock are those who "receive the word with joy" ... but it goes on to say... " that they have no root " and " who BELIVE FOR A WHILE" ...

I find this very interesting... I believe that I have also met many of these who at first seem to be bright lights in the church... I have a neigbor that was one of these... we had many conversations about God many years ago... yet he and his wife have completly left the church... and have no use for God.

I am just curious what your thought's are regarding this?

God Bless

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

The shallow soil (vv. 6, 13). This soil illustrates the emotional hearer who quickly responds to the message, but his interest wanes and he does not continue (see John 8:31-32). In many parts of the Holy Land you find a substratum of limestone covered with a thin layer of soil. The shoot can grow up, but the roots cannot go down, and the sun withers the rootless plant. The sun represents the testing that comes to all professing believers to prove their faith. Sun is good for plants if they have roots. Persecution can deepen the roots of a true Christian, but it only exposes the shallowness of the false Christian.

Do you think someone could be a true Christian who is not rooted in Christ?

Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :

Do you think someone could be a true Christian who is not rooted in Christ?

Christ in us... the hope of glory... In Him we live and move and have our being. Without Christ in christian we would only be a "ian" [Big Grin]

The one thing that I would want to be careful of is not making Warren Worsbe or anyone [including myself] above the word of God... I did read what he said about the shallow soil and in fact went back and read it again just to be sure what he was saying...

I do not see where he adresses my specific question which is this...

It says that the stony ground hearer "received the word with JOY " ... and it goes on to say that they "believed" for a while ...

so I guess I am wondering... if John 3:16 is true... then was the stony ground hearer saved?

I'm curious to know what you or others believe? I have often wondered about this yet most seem to say that he was not, and never was saved... I guess that I find that puzzling in light of John 3:16

Perhaps you can help solve the confussion...

Thank you and God Bless

Forever His

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

The shallow soil hearers are emotional. Can you think of other situations where, in the excitement of the moment, a person will say "Yes!" But after he's had time to think about it, and it starts to cost him, then his feelings change? Don't many personal relationships go through this kind of winding down process?

The shallow people received the Word with joy, an emotion. But when trials came, they gave up. It wasn't joyful anymore, so they quit.

What does God want to produce in our lives? Patience, endurance, and the ability to keep going when things are tough. “We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope” (Rom. 5:3-4). In the Bible, patience is not a passive acceptance of circumstances. It is a courageous perseverance in the face of suffering and difficulty.

Immature people are always impatient; mature people are patient and persistent. Impatience and unbelief usually go together, just as faith and patience do. “Be … followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises” (Heb. 6:12)

In John 3:16, the offer is made to whoever believes. To “believe” is more than intellectual agreement that Jesus is God. It means putting our trust and confidence in Him that He alone can save us. It is to put Christ in charge of our present plans and eternal destiny. Believing is both trusting His words as reliable and relying on Him for the power to change.

Can someone "believe for awhile" with that kind of belief? I don't think so. I don't think the shallow soil hearers were saved. [Frown]

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Forever His, nice to meet you. You said

quote:
It says that the stony ground hearer "received the word with JOY " ... and it goes on to say that they "believed" for a while ...

so I guess I am wondering... if John 3:16 is true... then was the stony ground hearer saved?

I'm curious to know what you or others believe? I have often wondered about this yet most seem to say that he was not, and never was saved... I guess that I find that puzzling in light of John 3:16

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And then came the believer who received the Word of God with JOY and believed for a while but had no root of Word of God in him or her.

I think that the New Testament indicated that I have to "keep on believing to the end of my our life" so that "whosoever believes" in John 3:16 means "actively believe unto the end of their life", they shall indeed have eternal life:

2 Corinthians 1:13
For we write none other things unto you, that what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust you shall acknowledge even to the end.

So Jesus died for the whole world, but of the four archetypal people on earth, as defined in the parable of the sower, only one of the four kinds of people are actually able to make it into eternal life.

The pleasures and cares of this life are also very nice and interesting, and they choke out the time we take to read or hear the Word of God. It's a constant battle.

Matthew 13
18 Hear therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then comes the wicked one and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

20 But he who received the seed into stony places, the same is he who hears the word, and anon with joy receives it;

21 Yet he does not have root in himself, but endures for a while: but when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word; but the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he who received seed into the good ground is he who hears the word, and also understands it and also bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty-fold, and some thirty-fold.

God so loved the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son, but both God and Jesus must have known BEFOREHAND that only one of the four kinds of people on earth would be saved by Jesus dying on the cross.

The only thing we do not know is how the 4 types of people are apportioned percentage-wise. We know there are 4 types of people, but each type does not need to consist of exactly 25%.

It may be that the 4th type of human who is able to acccept Jesus is 50% or more, and that the remaining 3 types of humans divvy up the remaining 50%, for example.

with love, eden

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

Hello everyone,

Some interesting points have been raised since I was last able to comment. Please allow me to toss out a few things to "chew on."

* The stony ground hearers "Believe for a while" (Luke 8:13). These stand in contrast to those by the wayside, from whom the word is snatched out of their hearts "lest they should believe and be saved" (Luke 8:12). Luke's account offers interesting encite on the parable in the fact that by it the Holy Spirit tells us the spiritual condition of both types of hearers. Eden is correct in pointing out that saving faith continues to the end (II Cor. 1:13). In this parable we are given the benefit of seeing the end (so to speak) of each type of hearers spiritual life.

Clearly, the parable addresses only one type of hearer that is ultimately saved. I'm afraid what we may be trying to do is "whittle on God's end of the stick" and say "the stony ground hearer and the hearer among thorns were never really saved to begin with." How can we say that? Now then, while the Bible never teaches that faith alone saves a person (James 2:14-26) it is clear that in this parable Jesus is referring to the obedient saving faith that God requires. To say that the stony ground hearer was never saved to begin with we are forced to disagree with what the Holy Spirit says--He says they "believed for a while."

* Reference has been made a time or two to the testing of works in which Paul declares, "If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet as through fire" (I Corinthians 3:15). I believe that if we try to apply this to individual works of obedience, or sinful works we are taking it out of context.

Notice, before this he discusses the work that he and Apollos did in teaching those in Corinth (I Cor. 3:5-9). He writes, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase" (I Cor 3:6). He then goes on to talk about the fact that while he laid the foundation of faith in Christ, others have built upon it (I Cor. 3:10-11). The quality of the work done by others who followed after him, he is not in a position to be able to evaluate. He compares it to either, "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay" or even "straw" (I Cor. 3:12). It is this work that will be made evident, tested, and "revealed by fire" to see "of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).

I Corinthians 3:15 is not saying that I may sin, be disobedient, abandone my faith, and that work will be burned up--even though I will be saved. Rather, Paul is teaching that the work that preachers do in trying to teach and convert people will be made evident on the Day of judgement (I Cor. 3:13). As a preacher not everyone who I may try to teach will respond. Yet, I will not be lost because someone that I have taught does not respond. It is in this sense that my work may be "burned up" but I can be saved.

Keep studying. This is wonderful--the word of God is the "sword of the Spirit"!

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hi hittite1963,

I read 1 Cor 3 again, along with some commentary.

Warren Wiersbe’s “Be” Series

quote:
You can find wood, hay, and stubble in your backyard, and it will not take too much effort to pick it up. But if you want gold, silver, and jewels, you have to dig for them. Lazy preachers and Sunday School teachers will have much to answer for at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

1 Cor 3 is about preachers. Thank you for pointing that out. [Smile]

But the rest of us will also be judged for the things we do after becoming Christians. Because of the gracious work of Christ on the cross, believers will not face their sins (John 5:24; Rom. 8:1); but we will have to give an account of our works and service for the Lord.

Romans 14:10 - 12 (NLT)

10 So why do you condemn another believer? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For the Scriptures say,

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the LORD,‘every knee will bend to me,and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.’”

12 Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God.

Paul asked the weak Christian, “Why are you judging your brother?” Then he asked the strong Christian, “Why are you despising your brother?” Both strong and weak must stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and they will not judge each other—they will be judged by the Lord.

The Judgment Seat of Christ is that place where Christians will have their works judged by the Lord. It has nothing to do with our sins, since Christ has paid for them and they can be held against us no more (Rom. 8:1). The word for “judgment seat” in the Greek is bema.

This is one reason why I believe that no true Christian will be doomed. Those who are doomed did not ever truly have the Holy Spirit in their hearts to fill them with the love of God.

John 14 and 16
The Holy Spirit will be with us forever (14:16); the world at large cannot accept him (14:17); he lives with us and in us (14:17); he teaches us (14:26); he reminds us of Jesus’ words (14:26; 15:26); he convicts us of sin, shows us God’s righteousness, and announces God’s judgment on evil (16:8); he guides into truth and gives insight into future events (16:13); he brings glory to Christ (16:14).

Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :

Thank you Carol Swenson for your kind reply. I believe that I understand your view yet I find myself in agreement for the most part with hittite1963 especailly when he says...

Clearly, the parable addresses only one type of hearer that is ultimately saved. I'm afraid what we may be trying to do is "whittle on God's end of the stick" and say "the stony ground hearer and the hearer among thorns were never really saved to begin with." How can we say that?

and

To say that the stony ground hearer was never saved to begin with we are forced to disagree with what the Holy Spirit says--He says they "believed for a while."

He said it in stronger words that I would have [Smile]

I in no way wish to be arguementive and hope that you will show me the "patience of the saints"... and thank you again for sharing your view.

God Bless

Forever His

Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :

Eden wrote:

quote:
I think that the New Testament indicated that I have to "keep on believing to the end of my our life" so that "whosoever believes" in John 3:16 means "actively believe unto the end of their life", they shall indeed have eternal life:

Eden it is nice to meet you as well, and thank you for the warm welcome. I find that I have to agree with you. My study of the scriptures would indicate that our belief "needs to be more than a casual consent to His existence."

I believe that it means that we "believe in" His ability to save us and all that is involved in that process. Jesus in the same chapter also said... ye must be born again or you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus came to set us free from the power of sin for He said Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

How many truly believe in Jesus ?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hi Forever His,

Actually, this debate has been going on for a very long time. There are those who believe a Christian can lose his salvation, and there are those who believe that no true Christian could lose his salvation.

I believe a Christian will be disciplined if he goes astray, and he may lose his rewards in heaven, but he will not be sent to hell. I cannot believe that the All Knowing Lord would grant salvation to someone knowing that it will be taken back. And I cannot believe the Holy Spirit would allow someone He indwells to go that far astray for very long.

But, as I said, this debate has been going on for a very long time, and to my knowledge, it has never been settled.

I think the main point of the parable of the Sower and the Soils is that as we spread the gospel we can expect some people to accept it and others to reject it.

It has been nice talking with you. I hope to see you elsewhere in the forum too. [Smile]

Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :

Eden wrote:

quote:
The pleasures and cares of this life are also very nice and interesting, and they choke out the time we take to read or hear the Word of God. It's a constant battle.

I find myself on the same page and in total agreement with you. I think that most christians find themselves in this struggle if they were honest. And just to make the point... how many here spend an hour each day reading and contemplating the bible ? How many here spend an hour a day in prayer?

Salvation is not just based upon "belief"... salvation is based totaly upon a "relationship" with Jesus Christ [.]

John 17:317:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Posted by Forever His (Member # 25) on :

Carol Swenson wrote:

quote:

I believe a Christian will be disciplined if he goes astray, and he may loose his rewards in heaven, but he will not be sent to hell. I cannot believe that the All Knowing Lord would grant salvation to someone knowing that it will be taken back. And I cannot believe the Holy Spirit would allow someone He indwells to go that far astray for very long.

But, as I said, this debate has been going on for a very long time, and to my knowledge, it has never been settled.

I totaly agree that a christian will be disciplined if he goes astray... Look at what happened to David when he tried to number the army of Israel [Frown]

He paid very dearly. OUCH !!! Yet God's discipline is "ALWAYS" redemptive... Praise God ! Amen... we are on the same page.

I also believe that all of heaven is at work behind the sceenes and that Jesus is still "seeking that which was lost" and that He will leave no stone unturned in saving all who will come unto Him.

and you are right about the debate... and it will likely continue until Jesus comes. While I do not wish to argue the point to death... there is still a part of me that looks at this and has to ask... how is it that one could miss the fact that it was a good seed that germinated... a seed planted by God Himself... and in two cases it grew and became a living plant. One died because it had not enough soil... the other had suffecient soil yet was choked out by thorns ... I have a hard time understanding why that is so easy to miss? It was a living plant that grew from God's seed which He planted... I just find that so hard to miss... It was not a "weed" that was choked... I guess that is the main point I wish to make.

again... I am not trying to argue... but to understand... I have never had an answer that was directly to that point that satisfied me... anyway... do not feel that you need to answer... I'm just venting my thought's on this....

and God Bless you... and I will stop nagging and move on to another topic soon [Wink]

Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :

>>> Do you think someone could be a true Christian who is not rooted in Christ?

NO, No one will go to be with Jesus that dose not know Him.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)

He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)

The gift of salvation is FREE but the blessings from God come with obedience to Him and living a Spirit filled life. We can live a Spirit filled life by submitting ourselves to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

God cares for us and He's ready to help us. But His offer is not unconditional. He ask us to do the following:
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

>>> How many truly believe in Jesus ?

FEW!

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it. - Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)

Many come to know Jesus as the Way. A few more go on to know Him as the Truth. But very few go on to know Him as their life. ~ Rick Joyner

>>> Actually, this debate has been going on for a very long time. There are those who believe a Christian can lose his salvation, and there are those who believe that no true Christian could lose his salvation.

I don’t believe any TRUE believer in Jesus Christ (one that knows Him, follows Him and has made Jesus their first love.) will ever lose their salvation.

We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. ~ 1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)

The debate gets confused when people try to say that people that don’t obey are still saved, but in reality they have never actually come to know Jesus Christ but have came to know religion or just come to know about Him. There is a BIG different here. So it is all how you look at what being saved or salvation is. Knowing about Jesus does not save you. Walking the isle does not save you. Getting baptized does not save you. Saying the sinners prayer does not save you.

Knowing Jesus Christ, giving your life to Him is what life is about. If you want to be saved then fall in love with Jesus Christ and obey Him. When you are obeying Him because you have come to know and love Him you will know you are saved as He will let you know. There is no easy push button one time thing you can do to be saved, it is a life time change.

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
~ 1 Corinthians 9:24

Now for those that have just mouthed the words, walked the isle, gotten baptized but never came to actually know Jesus Christ by seeking and obeying Him. Yes they are on dangerous ground. This is not a game but the true Christian will do as Jesus ask because they love Him. There are many, many professing Christian’s that don’t know Jesus. They just know religion and they will not be with Him for eternity. They have not taken up their cross and followed Him, but have put self first. This is sad indeed, but if you never read the bible for your self, pray and seek Jesus but think going to Church will save you, you are in for a very rude awaking.

.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

I think that you illustrate a point David. However, there are plenty of people who do taste of the Lord, and see that He is good, meaning that He knew them when they called upon His name. But some of them are overcome of temptation and go back into the world. If the plant is not rooted, it cannot draw water. It dies: Or, it may stay dormant for a long time, and if no water reaches the root, then it dies (because He is merciful and longsuffering).

I believe that they did know Him, insomuch as they were known, the moment when they repented and believed. Belief is where it starts. Jesus fills belief, for belief is surrender. If belief is not surrender (which is possible….) Then they would have to be faking it. But I don’t believe this is the case very often.

After I was saved, and it was powerful, then I backslid. I truly believe that I could have loved the darkness more than the light and could have lost my soul. I am a person of free will, and I believe that if I had hardened my heart enough, there would have been no help for me. If I am wrong, great! I am glad for everyone that they have nothing to fear. But I do not take it for granted. That is what satan did, and he fell from heaven.

It works like this, as per the parable of the sewer. Seed is sewn. The field is white with harvest. But the harvestable grain didn’t experience a drought. This is where free will comes in. Unlike a wheat stalk, we have free will to choose water wherever we happen to be. (Call on the name of the Lord...)

In fact, this also needs to be mentioned. Scripture says that everything will be shaken one last time to see that everything will remain secure. Whatsoever will not hang on will be lost. REVELATIONS

There is no doubt that I was saved. But I went back into the seex, dregs and rack and roil, completely overcome by desire for it. I do believe the Lord would have given me chances to repent, and I could have possibly ignored them until eventually it would have been too late.

Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I think that you illustrate a point David. However, there are plenty of people who do taste of the Lord, and see that He is good, meaning that He knew them when they called upon His name. But some of them are overcome of temptation and go back into the world. If the plant is not rooted, it cannot draw water. It dies: Or, it may stay dormant for a long time, and if no water reaches the root, then it dies (because He is merciful and longsuffering).

I believe that they did know Him, insomuch as they were known, the moment when they repented and believed. Belief is where it starts. Jesus fills belief, for belief is surrender. If belief is not surrender (which is possible….) Then they would have to be faking it. But I don’t believe this is the case very often.

After I was saved, and it was powerful, then I backslid. I truly believe that I could have loved the darkness more than the light and could have lost my soul. I am a person of free will, and I believe that if I had hardened my heart enough, there would have been no help for me. If I am wrong, great! I am glad for everyone that they have nothing to fear. But I do not take it for granted. That is what satan did, and he fell from heaven.

It works like this, as per the parable of the sewer. Seed is sewn. The field is white with harvest. But the harvestable grain didn’t experience a drought. This is where free will comes in. Unlike a wheat stalk, we have free will to choose water. In fact, this needs to be mentioned. Scripture says that everything will be shaken one last time to see that everything will remain secure. Whatsoever will not hang on will be lost. REVELATIONS

There is no doubt that I was saved. But I went back into the seex, dregs and rack and roil, completely overcome by desire for it. I do believe the Lord would have given me chances to repent, and I could have possibly ignored them until eventually it would have been too late.

Same thing happened to me. But I don't think I ever got to know Jesus Christ. He knew me but I never got to know Him. Yes I walked the isle, said the sinners prayer, was baptized, went to church. But I never got to know Jesus.

I went out into the world and did the same thing you did. But I don't think I was saved and I think if I had died I would be in HELL right now.

But thinks to the Lord Jesus I did get to know him when I was 23 and I now know it is about Him and not religion. Like I said there is a BIG difference in knowing Him and knowing about Him. You will know when you meet Him if you seek Him, He will let you know. But for me it took quite a while before I got to know Him. But now I do. If you know Him you don't want to go back into the world, you may make mistakes but you don't live in the pit. He will not let you.

If someone goes back to the pit of worldly living and God don't bring them back, they never knew Him.

>>> , there are plenty of people who do taste of the Lord, and see that He is good, meaning that He knew them when they called upon His name.

True, but they never got to know Him.

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

diligently is not half hearted.

Just playing around in reading the bible but not taking it serious will just draw Satan to you and you will be worse off. You must diligently seek Him and then you will come to know Him.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)

.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
Kyle Pope
kmpope@worldnet.att.net

That is a shallow meaning of abide. To abide does mean to 'stay', however, one is not abiding until they discover the 'fullness'. Until then, they are not yet in the Holy of Holies of their relationship. They are in the outer court, or maybe a little closer.

The parallel can also be drawn with Israel's being in the wilderness. They were not in the promised land. They were without.

And in watching Perry Stone speak on "The Gad Factor," last night, here is another comparison. He illustrated that, what, two and a half tribes, if I remember correctly, stayed back beyond the river, while the rest went on to Jerusalem. They were desiring to be closer to Moses than the Lord. This created a great distance for them to travel on the three Holy days of each year which broke the unity. From there more trouble developed. It just got deeper. Well, this represents abiding. However, they abided without!!! Amen! One has to go where they are called - in Him, and upon discovering it, abide!

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Here is another point. The shallow soil seeds germinated, or else they will not have taken root! This means that they believed. Therefore they are not dormant seeds which were taken away by satan.

It is a long way from our high horse down to where we will be met by Him.

Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Here is another point. The shallow soil seeds germinated, or else they will not have taken root! This means that they believed. Therefore they are not dormant seeds which were taken away by satan.

It is a long way from our high horse down to where we will be met by Him.

The object of Christianity is not to give people a teaching or to lead them in a prayer, but to introduce them to a Man. I would rather have thirty seconds of seeing than thirty years of preaching. People can listen to me preach all their life and never understand a word, but if the Lord opens their eyes to SEE Who I am preaching about then they will understand everything.
~ Chip Brogden

>>> Here is another point. The shallow soil seeds germinated, or else they will not have taken root! Therefore they are not dormant seeds which were taken away by satan.

Yes but it had not root so the Holy Spirit did not live in them. They we not attached to the vine and had no food so they were still blind and had no eyes to see truth.

>>>> It is a long way from our high horse down to where we will be met by Him.

Yes that is true. But if we diligently seek Him when others prayers knock us off the horse into the pit, we will wake up and see the truth.

.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

David: It is very important that after we have tasted Him that we seek Him diligently. I had the experience after backsliding of being aware of having been sitting in the lap of the devil, and I shuddered to realize and reflect on it.

This much I remember well. Jesus was in my heart, but I was covering Him up. I was resisting Him. I cannot say that I didn't know Him. I did. I knew He was there, meaning out there. But I also knew that He was in my heart. The problem was that I was not willing. I was not believing that He had my best interest at heart, able to fill, and fulfill me. I greived the Holy Spirit wherein I was 'sealed'.

But there is a difference between knowing and knowing, and every Christian (urgently) needs to discover this. Yet, not knowing Him to the degree that He desired for me, didn't mean not knowing Him at all. Where I have witnessed, I believe, people who 'got saved' who don't seem to have changed at all.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Even more than this, the dirt permeates our heart. Therefore the dirt needs to be washed away. Then we see the God/Man. Then we see through His eyes, realizing how close we truly are to Him. Until this cleansing takes place, we see through prejudice - our own. Everything we see is as through a dirty glass of prejudice, and improper understanding. Therefore - thinking of a dirty glass - the light does not shine through. But He is in there!

That takes me to, "A city set on a hill cannot be hidden." And, "No one lighteth a candle and puts it under a bushel."

A pearl buried in the mud may shine, but no one will see it. This is where believing comes in. When you believe unto Him as He desires, then the mud is like fog! It eventually dissipates. (No one earthly example is adequate.) Therefore have we the verse:

"If the 'eye' is single, the body will be full of light." What the Christian believes in his or her heart, makes or breaks them. Better stated, who we believe unto in our heart makes or breaks us. And what we believe about Him is key!

Life is in the believing!

"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness." (Luk 11:35)

Light that is darkness is believing what He does not give one to believe, but rather, left to their own devices, these people believe in something that separates them from Him; distinguishes them from Him, as it were. This creates religiosity, not relationship through faith in the creator.

....and thinking about the references to 'overcomers', I see where I was once upon a time as a place from which I would have had to graduate, by overcoming, which means plowing on until I made a deeper discovery.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

David,

quote:
The debate gets confused when people try to say that people that don’t obey are still saved, but in reality they have never actually come to know Jesus Christ but have came to know religion or just come to know about Him. There is a BIG different here. So it is all how you look at what being saved or salvation is. Knowing about Jesus does not save you. Walking the isle does not save you. Getting baptized does not save you. Saying the sinners prayer does not save you.

Thank you! This is what I was trying to say. If we know our Lord Jesus, we will love Him and obey Him. We will bear fruit because He is the whole of our life.

Those who do not bear fruit cannot truly love Him.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Knowing about Jesus does not save you.

Walking the isle does not save you.

Getting baptized does not save you.

Saying the sinners prayer does not save you.

OK for the baseball fans ~ What does save you?

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Read the rest of David's post, not just my quote.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

If you dont mind. I would like it in your words.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Not baseball, neither those who play it. (Baseball is code talk)

"Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved." (Luk 8:12)

Therefore the rest are saved because they indeed believed, but they wilted away. Those however, who are choked by thorns would be like Paula White; saved but distracted.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

WildB wrote to Carol Swenson:

quote:
If you dont mind. I would like it in your words.

Hi, Carol Swenson, to some extent I share WildB's sentiment to hear some of your own words.

I have read a couple of time where you said, in words similar to this, that "you were no expert and only as student" and therefore you were posting the articles of "other Christians more expert than you".

But surely you have read your own articles before you have posted them and are NO LONGER A STUDENT as a result? How many articles can a person post without himself or herself becoming at least a "mini-expert"?

This is what WildB, and I also, was probably getting at. With all the articles you post for "new Christians to learn from", as it were, you yourself must have acquired quite a treasure of Bible knowledge that you yourself can pull from, "things new and old".

So that it surprised me when you said several times that "I'm no expert and I'm only a student" even after posting, and presumably first reading, all these articles that you have posted presumably for "new Christians to learn from".

If I may presume what I think WildB meant, it seems WildB and to me that you fairly rarely create a Topic which is a co-creation of Carol Swenson and the Holy Spirit and why is that?

As WildB wrote to Carol Swenson:

quote:
If you dont mind. I would like it in your words.

with love,
eden

Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Knowing about Jesus does not save you.

Walking the isle does not save you.

Getting baptized does not save you.

Saying the sinners prayer does not save you.

OK for the baseball fans ~ What does save you?

Jesus Christ saves you when you come to know Him and follow Him.

Once again, there is no EASY PUSH BUTTON you can push and think you are saved.

I know you want one but it is not there. God wants a relationship and if you just want to buy a ticket and forget about it until you need it you are in deep, deep dangers.

Wake Up!

.

Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :

WildB and Eden,

There is nothing wrong with posting what other teachers have already explained. Why reinvent the wheel.

If they explain it the way Carol believes it then it sure saves a lot of time and helps us see what she believes.

But the answer to this has been posted several times. Seems you just don't want to believe there is no easy button for you to push.

When people start being rude to others on this message board like I have been seeing lately. It will not be tolerated.

If you are thinking about coming back to this message with something rude, you better think again before you post it.

I have this message board online so we all can discuss the bible without worrying about belittling, condescending remarks from people that want to be rude.

.

Posted by hittite1963 (Member # 7092) on :

Hello everyone,

I am new to this Message Board thing so I am not sure if this is good ettiquite or not--but it seems to me that the focus has shifted away from a consideration of exactly what the Parable of the Sower (or Soils) is teaching, into a discussion of other points. That often happens in studues--our understanding of one issue influences what we think about another, so we must take a detour to consider the side issue before we can understand the main point we started to study.

In my judgment two such side issues that have been raised by this disscusion are:

* How the Holy Spirit works in the Christian. And,
* How God views sin in the life of a Christian.

If I may, I would like to introduce these two side issues as separate topic threads some time in the next few days. Thanks for your patience with a newcomer.

Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :

.

hittite1963,

Sounds good.

Thanks,
David

.

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :

that was a long read to catch up but worth the read...

There is not a more important parable to understand in scripture than this parable of the Sower.

Mar 4:13 And Yahshua said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

If this is not understood, you can forget about understanding anything else Yahshua taught.

quote:
hittite1963
Clearly, the parable addresses only one type of hearer that is ultimately saved. I'm afraid what we may be trying to do is "whittle on God's end of the stick" and say "the stony ground hearer and the hearer among thorns were never really saved to begin with." How can we say that? Now then, while the Bible never teaches that faith alone saves a person (James 2:14-26) it is clear that in this parable Jesus is referring to the obedient saving faith that God requires. To say that the stony ground hearer was never saved to begin with we are forced to disagree with what the Holy Spirit says--He says they "believed for a while."

on this fact alone, Once Saved Always Saved doctrine is defeated

quote:
Carol Swenson
I believe a Christian will be disciplined if he goes astray, and he may lose his rewards in heaven, but he will not be sent to hell. I cannot believe that the All Knowing Lord would grant salvation to someone knowing that it will be taken back. And I cannot believe the Holy Spirit would allow someone He indwells to go that far astray for very long.

Carol Yahweh does not take it back, it is forfeited because the receiver neglects the gift.

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

quote:

Forever His

Eden wrote:
quote:
________________________________________
The pleasures and cares of this life are also very nice and interesting, and they choke out the time we take to read or hear the Word of God. It's a constant battle.
________________________________________
I find myself on the same page and in total agreement with you. I think that most christians find themselves in this struggle if they were honest. And just to make the point... how many here spend an hour each day reading and contemplating the bible ? How many here spend an hour a day in prayer?

Salvation is not just based upon "belief"... salvation is based totaly upon a "relationship" with Jesus Christ [.]

John 17:317:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Just to clarify this statement...Salvation is not just based upon "belief"... salvation is based totally upon a "relationship" with Jesus Christ

no Yahshua is Salvation, he that has the Son has Salvation.

the problem with most peoples concept of Salvation is they think it is instant...

but the parable of the sower is showing those that can discern rightly, Salvation is a development...

a seed is planted and it grows, just as with a plant or a baby.

in the plant kingdom it's ....Mar 4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.

with a baby it's the development in the womb... Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,"

much can happen in the development of a baby in the womb before birth.

miscarriage, stillbirth, planned abortion, even deformity where there has been disease or malnutrition....

Martin Luther said the Church is the womb of Yahweh, I think he hit the nail on the head

Yahshua is the seed, Yahweh is the womb, and the Holy Spirit is the umbilical cord .

with the plant seed, the seed has a hard outside covering, our old nature, it must be broken if any life is ever to come forth, but once broken it begins to grow, tiny little green shoot of life come up toward the sun the source of life, and then only all that wonderful stuff Yahweh can do begins, but this fallen world doesn't let life come forth without much resistance....all, the disease, insect pest, weather condition...

remember Yashua's word take care how you hear...

I hope you can he Him now He is talking to you!

Take care how you hear....

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

That was a good article becausely. I do think however that belief leads to submission. What good would belief be without that?

I liked the part where you said that 'we remove ourselves.' It could happen no other way. He will not remove us. But such is the deception of sin, that it is that dangerous.

That is, I'm sure, what David is hitting on when he reproves prosperity folk. Nevertheless, I have this disclaimer:

"Ask, believing that ye receive, and ye shall have it." (That is a paraphrase.) This is akin to name it and claim it. However, it is based on conviction of the Spirit!

1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Bless ye in the name of the Lord!

Serve Him. For those of you who are non-committal, serve Him. He knows you the best and knows what is best. It is a no brainier. It truly is. Think about it. Ask!

... and check out the post on I'm Ok, you're Ok.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Michael Harrison. You said

quote:
... and check out the post on I'm Ok, you're Ok.

I don't read secular books anymore. Time to throw the book away, Michael Harrison. Should I now read 10 paragraphs (or whatever) of secular text from I'm OK, You're OK? That would be a digression, wouldn't it? I'm going in the OTHER direction. Time to throw the book into the trash, Michael Harrison.

with love, eden

Posted by ECM (Member # 7097) on :

Jesus said we must be born again.

I see a parallel between human birth and spiritual birth.

A baby is conceived in the womb. It's alive. It's growing, developing organs and limbs. If all goes well, it will mature to the point of being born a normal, healthy child. Afterward it will continue to grow and develop but in a different way as it learns and its personality and character forms. If all does not go well, it may be born deformed or with other health issues or it may be still born or miscarried.

I suspect it is similar in a spiritual sense. Faith is conceived in the heart (spirit) (seed planted). It's alive but a lack of understanding aborts it (Satan grabs it away). Or it is malnourished and miscarried (not much soil). Or worries and cares of the world choke it to death and it's stillborn (unfruitful). It was never born. But where faith is conceived and met with understanding and nourished and not distracted from Christ, it is born giving place to eternal life. Afterward it continues to mature and bear fruit. Once born, I doubt one can be unborn. Die? Not if it's eternal. One can become distracted and fall out of fellowship, but I believe the Holy Spirit will bring that person back. I also believe a Christian's life here on earth can be cut short if they're straying and not responding to the Holy Spirit.

Well, that's my thoughts. I believe (was it eden?) had it right in saying that salvation was by continuously believing. But if you believe to the point of being reborn, is it even possible to stop believing? I think not because you have the Holy Spirit within you as a constant reminder, teaching and guiding you.

Esther

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

ECM said

quote:
Once born, I doubt one can be unborn. Die? Not if it's eternal.

But bornagain won't be eternal until the body is glorified. And I think we have to die actively believing in the exchanged life of Jesus to be given the next stage of the bornagain promise: the redeemed body like Jesus had.

Matthew 25:29
For to everyone who has shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him who has not shall be taken away even that which he has.

What do I already have that can be taken away in the context of the spiritual life with Jesus? The only thing I have thus far is the downpayment of the Spirit:

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

2 Corinthians 1:22
Who has also sealed us and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Strong's Concordance

2Cor1:22 Who 3588 has 4972 0 also 2532 sealed 4972 us 2248, and 2532 given 1325 the earnest 728 of the Spirit 4151 in 1722 our 2257 hearts 2588.

728. arrhabon of Hebrew origin (6162); a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:--earnest.

This 728 arrhabon or part of the purchase-money must be "what I already have" which can be "taken away from him who has".

with love, eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Hum! Strong word.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ECM:
Jesus said we must be born again.

I see a parallel between human birth and spiritual birth.

A baby is conceived in the womb. It's alive. It's growing, developing organs and limbs. If all goes well, it will mature to the point of being born a normal, healthy child. Afterward it will continue to grow and develop but in a different way as it learns and its personality and character forms. If all does not go well, it may be born deformed or with other health issues or it may be still born or miscarried.

I suspect it is similar in a spiritual sense. Faith is conceived in the heart (spirit) (seed planted). It's alive but a lack of understanding aborts it (Satan grabs it away). Or it is malnourished and miscarried (not much soil). Or worries and cares of the world choke it to death and it's stillborn (unfruitful). It was never born. But where faith is conceived and met with understanding and nourished and not distracted from Christ, it is born giving place to eternal life. Afterward it continues to mature and bear fruit. Once born, I doubt one can be unborn. Die? Not if it's eternal. One can become distracted and fall out of fellowship, but I believe the Holy Spirit will bring that person back. I also believe a Christian's life here on earth can be cut short if they're straying and not responding to the Holy Spirit.

Well, that's my thoughts. I believe (was it eden?) had it right in saying that salvation was by continuously believing. But if you believe to the point of being reborn, is it even possible to stop believing? I think not because you have the Holy Spirit within you as a constant reminder, teaching and guiding you.

Esther

This is the way I see it also.

Very good!

[thumbsup2]

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
Or worries and cares of the world choke it to death and it's stillborn (unfruitful). It was never born.

??? According to scripture, the ones who grow up in thornes are not choked to death. It says that they "bring forth not fruit to perfection." This means that they are in existence. However, their love for the world cripples their ability to produce the proper fruit. This would apply to a host of "Christians," who love the world and the things of the world. Their fruit is lacking, but they are no less Christians than I.

Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

If they were dead, they would produce "no fruit." Rather we read that they produce crummy fruit. And when we judge them, our fruit spoils.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

We can look at David and say that he repented. Yet, some onlookers knew David before he repented. So at one point he must have looked like Dolly Parton to someone. Unrepentant! Needless to say, he was NOT bringing forth fruit to perfection, as evidenced by the chastening that was upon him as a result of his not being yielded to God.

Without Jesus in your heart, you cannot be saved and; the way Jesus is in your heart is by 'belief.' You believe! He honors. The saving power of Jesus is that by believing, He is made Lord of you. This means that His decisions are your decisions. His choices are your choices. By this manner you bear fruit. If you resist His choices, you cripple the plant. It doesn't die, not right away. If you live according to "Thy will be done on earth [in me] as in heaven," then are you a wellspring of water. Guess who is the water!

You believe; He honors, the plant grows. Disobey by not yielding to His desire, not good really.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

Why do people try to see how much they can get away with and still be saved?

This does not make any sence to me.

I think someone that knows the Lord Jesus Christ and someone that is saved don't want to get away with anything but they want to follow Him.

Trying to prove how much someone can get away with in stead of trying to point them to Jesus just show me their focus is on the world and what they can get out of it instead of on Jesus.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Even though that may be the case, I don't think that they are thinking of themselves that way David. It is the mystery of iniquity. All we like sheep have gone astray, and even after getting saved, we are dumb to the value of what is wrough in our behalf.

If anyone could see Him like St. John did when he fell out at the sight of Him in Revelations, we would all get serious really fast. But we overlook this because of the flesh, and have to endure chastening until we seek Him properly. It is the Bible story. It is the story of Israel. Even today, Israel is like that. Yet there is a day in the future when they will acknowledge Him.

You have a special gift of dedication that not everybody experiences, I believe. Israel endured turning their back on Him time and again. That is usually when they went into captivity. Sin is our captivity.

When they cried out, He heard. Sometimes He let them roast for a while first.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

Well I do hope you are right.

But the following verse has been playing over and over in my mind lately.

Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it. - Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)

I just hope people don't taking know Jesus Christ to lightly.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

You get all the good icons! [Roll Eyes]

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

I thought you might like me hitting you with my fish..... grin.

http://christianbbs.net/smilies.htm

Posted by ECM (Member # 7097) on :

Hello out there. I don't see my post. I thought I posted it here but maybe not. Let me put it another way because I would like to know what others think of the idea. It's not something I'm dogmatic about. It's just a thought or suspicion.

There is a period of incubation for all life forms in the physical world--that period of time between conception and birth (or hatch). A lot can happen during this time. Not everything that is conceived is born.

I wonder if it's not also that way in the spirit world, if maybe there is a period of incubation between the planted seed of faith and the birth during which time you could lose your salvation. Believing, you have life but at some point you stop believing so it doesn't mature to birth. If it matures to birth (I believe this would be when you are willing to surrender to the Lord, when you truly believe on him and want him in your life no matter what), his Spirit permanently joins yours giving you eternal life. You are now God's child, sealed by the Holy Spirit and cannot lose your salvation because it's eternal.

Can you backslide? Probably because you're still living in a body of flesh. You (your spirit) is new (recreated), but the flesh is old and has habits and cravings that need to be overcome. Afterall, as a newborn, you're a baby. There are going to be bumps in the road, so to speak, as you mature in Christ and build on the new foundation. But if you get off on the wrong track, he is faithful and will one way or another bring you back.

That's what I suspect. What do you think?

Esther

Posted by ECM (Member # 7097) on :

Hi. It's me again. In scrolling back I found my original post. I don't know how I missed it the first time. Oh well, now you've heard it twice; only the wording changed. I've read the subsequent posts. Thanks for the support, KnowHim. Eden, I do not believe the eternal part lies in the future. You receive it when you receive Christ. It's now and forever (1John 5:1-12).

Esther

Posted by CHEWY (Member # 6970) on :

If we are to believe that salvation can be lost as is insinuated by some from this parable, How much sin does it take for this salvation to be "returned to Sender?" Could it be the sin of commission versus the sin of omission? Is it a full-fledged recanting of faith?

The information gatherer-

Chewy-

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Chewy, you said

quote:
If we are to believe that salvation can be lost as is insinuated by some from this parable, How much sin does it take for this salvation to be "returned to Sender?" Could it be the sin of commission versus the sin of omission? Is it a full-fledged recanting of faith?

I think it would have to be something like, "I've gone to Higher Education, and now I just don't believe that antiquated Jesus stuff anymore."

Or a second type of person might be someone who was born into a Protestant Christian family or born into a Catholic Christian family but they never had a personal experience about their own sinfulness and so they never asked the Lord to "make the exchange of Jesus for them".

Most of those types of persons also usually do nothing to help out in the family of God's vineyard, whose work is evangelization, and so God can say to them, "You know, I never knew you".

"Take from him even what he has" or "Take from him even what he thinks he has".

Faith without works is dead faith.

love, eden

Posted by CHEWY (Member # 6970) on :

Eden-

So the first for instance would be the full recanting of faith. [A person whom after repentance chooses to deny the salvatory work of Christ]
The second for-instance would be someone who was never saved to begin with, but just grew up in a Christian environment. Am I understanding correctly?
Are there any other points where that one would lose their salvation under this teaching?

Chewy-

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

Boy did I have a chip on my shoulder lol!

[hug]

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

I sure can't see it. Everyone got mad about something at one time or another. We looked like a bunch of pin cushions with fiery darts sticking out of us all over the place.