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Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
Biblical "love" is "unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, at least as much concern for their Salvation as you have for your own."

God says that He is love. Isn't the Word "love"? Didn't God send His Love in the form of His Son, the Word? So, then, the Word is, by definition, "love." Therefore, this kind of "love" wouldn't be what the world tells us is "love" because God tells us to ignore and avoid the worldly.

To "love" someone, then, is to give them the Word, give them God.

Biblical "compassion" is "unselfish concern for those who will die without Christ."

God was working, and Jesus said that He must now work, and, now, we must say that we must now work. Jesus calls us to work. We who are truly born again are fellow laborers with God.

So, God finished his work on Creation. He rested.

All was fine until Adam and Eve jumped. Then, God's work of Redemption began. It continues today.

So, what's God's work that we -- that is, those who are truly born again -- must be fellow laborers?

His work is Redemption. His process for Redemption is in place. He waits on us -- those of us who are truly born again -- to follow the Plan He directed men to write. He depends on us, the truly born again, to spread Word of the Plan in order that as many as possible are saved. He says that He will not save all, that most will not be saved, that few will find the narrow gate to Salvation. That's why we are to be concerned, not with the things that can kill the body, rather with the things that can kill the spirit. That's why we cannot be concerned with the blatherings of men and the things of this world.

His mission is Salvation. This is our ambition and mission. Therefore, that's our work, as fellow laborers with Him.

Our ambition and mission, in this wilderness, are to be instructed in the work of Redemption. We cannot be fellow laborers with Him unless we are instructed in the work.

If His work of Creation was out of love, and His work of Redemption is out of love, and we are fellow laborers with Him in His ambition and His mission which are also ours, then our work must also be out of love, and that means unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, at least as much concern for their Salvation as we have for our own. There is your definition of "love."

His worry -- that is, His compassion -- therefore, is that so many will die without Christ and, so, will not be saved.

So, therefore, biblical "compassion" is "unselfish concern for those who will die without Christ."

Thus, the most love and compassion you can have toward and for anyone is to give them the Word of God, the Good News, the Message of God's Reconciliation and Redemption, the ONLY Way to the Father -- the Truth.
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
Fully two days after I posted the introductory thing to this thread, there isn't even one reply to it. Not so much as even "Praise the Lord!" or "Thank You, Lord!" Incredible.

What happened to all those who claim to be so excited about the Lord, who say that the Lord has done so much for them?
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
Um...ok. Here's a question: Are you saying that proselytizing = the primary way we show God's love to men?

A link for reference... http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=proselytizing


Aaron
 
Posted by lonlesol (Member # 4511) on :
 
Hello aiopj...

Maybe you need to give time to others to fully understand what you have written?...(I personally need that extra time myself as I am still fairly new at being a born-again Christian)...

I have started a few threads since I know of this board and very rarely do people respond to mine...just don't get discouraged...

Keep writing, some people may learn from your words...Welcome to this board... [hug]

And you are so right...Praise the Lord!... [clap2] [Smile] [Prayer]
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Are you saying that proselytizing = the primary way we show God's love to men?
Well, what God's ambition?

His ambition is Redemption.

To that end, He sent His Son, His Love and Joy. Jesus is the Word. God sent His Word in order to save men.

God loves the world and has faith, and, out of that faith, He worked and He works. Jesus said that the Father, up to then, had been working and that, now, He -- Jesus -- must work and that those who are truly born again must now work.

God says that we -- that is, those who are truly born again -- are partners with Him, fellow laborers in the work of Redemption. So, the work is Redemption. Without faith, we can do no such good work because, by ourselves, we, as filthy rags, dirty the world. Without this good work, faith is dead.

So, God sent the Word to work Redemption, and the Word -- Jesus -- tells those who are truly born again to help Him in the work of Redemption. Therefore, since God sent the Word and the Word sends us, our work of love and faith is to declare the Word Which is love.

God sent His Love and His Love tells us to send His Love to others.

If a person, claiming he is born again, hands out, say, soup without the Word, he is exalting himself. He is to declare the Word so that the one getting the soup knows that it is from God, not the dude handing out the soup. Although the dude, declaring the Word of God, handing out the soup, gets some credit for choosing to do the work of God, and it goes toward his account, the glory goes to God, thank you, Lord.
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
Hello aiopj...
Yo!

quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
Maybe you need to give time to others to fully understand what you have written?...(I personally need that extra time myself as I am still fairly new at being a born-again Christian)...
I understand. It's a good point.

quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
I have started a few threads since I know of this board and very rarely do people respond to mine...just don't get discouraged...
Fair point.

quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
Keep writing, some people may learn from your words...Welcome to this board...
I couldn't write the words that I write were it not for the Holy Spirit.

Thanks.

And, so, what has the Lord done for you that you are now born again, and what has He shown you since?
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aiopj:
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Are you saying that proselytizing = the primary way we show God's love to men?
Well, what God's ambition?

His ambition is Redemption.

To that end, He sent His Son, His Love and Joy. Jesus is the Word. God sent His Word in order to save men.

God loves the world and has faith, and, out of that faith, He worked and He works. Jesus said that the Father, up to then, had been working and that, now, He -- Jesus -- must work and that those who are truly born again must now work.

God says that we -- that is, those who are truly born again -- are partners with Him, fellow laborers in the work of Redemption. So, the work is Redemption. Without faith, we can do no such good work because, by ourselves, we, as filthy rags, dirty the world. Without this good work, faith is dead.

So, God sent the Word to work Redemption, and the Word -- Jesus -- tells those who are truly born again to help Him in the work of Redemption. Therefore, since God sent the Word and the Word sends us, our work of love and faith is to declare the Word Which is love.

God sent His Love and His Love tells us to send His Love to others.

If a person, claiming he is born again, hands out, say, soup without the Word, he is exalting himself. He is to declare the Word so that the one getting the soup knows that it is from God, not the dude handing out the soup. Although the dude, declaring the Word of God, handing out the soup, gets some credit for choosing to do the work of God, and it goes toward his account, the glory goes to God, thank you, Lord.
Ok. I see where you're going with this.

Let me ask another question, if you will: Are you saying that the goal of "showing God's love" is conversion?

Let me tell you where I'm headed: if people say that man was created simply to be saved from sin then I have a problem with that. God could have solved the problem of sin by not creating us in the first place. God saves us for a purpose not simply to save us from sin.

Also, I'm concerned that you are using "salvation" and "redemption" interchangeably. Do you know the differences between the two?

Also, I'm concerned you're using "Word" and "Bible" interchangeably. If you are saying that the "Word" is Christ, fine. But will you also say that the Bible is "fully Christ"? If so, I have a problem with that. If the scriptures are fully Christ then the Pharisees, searching the scriptures (a.k.a. Christ) would have found life. But they didn't.

Aaron
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Are you saying that the goal of "showing God's love" is conversion?
God's work is the work of Redemption. It's an act of His Reconciliation.

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Also, I'm concerned that you are using "salvation" and "redemption" interchangeably. Do you know the differences between the two?
To be redeemed is to have been bought back, and it describes perfectly the work of Christ Who "bought us back" from sin and death through His Blood.

"Salvation" is the total work of God in delivering us from sin and reconciling us to Himself. It is found in Christ alone.

So, the way I see it, it's a distinction without a difference.

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
... if people say that man was created simply to be saved from sin then I have a problem with that. God could have solved the problem of sin by not creating us in the first place.
If somebody says that Man was created simply to be saved from sin, I have a problem with that, too. They are ignorant.

When God created Man, Man was sinless. He was perfect.

Man jumped into a fall. Man created his own sinful condition which separated him from God.

Therefore, God did not create Man to be saved from sin.

quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
God saves us for a purpose not simply to save us from sin.
He wants us to be with Him. That can't happen without Grace.

By the way, Christ is referred to as both "Redeemer" and "Savior."
 
Posted by lonlesol (Member # 4511) on :
 
quote:
And, so, what has the Lord done for you that you are now born again, and what has He shown you since?
I have to leave for work in a few minutes but I will come back when I do have enough time to answer you...but please bare with me as I am a slow writer...

One small note though that I need to mention...what I will say is not all about little old me (refering to what someone on this board once harshly told me in one of his threads which is one of the reasons why I do not post very often), it will be about what the Lord has done for me... [Cross]
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
I have to leave for work in a few minutes but I will come back when I do have enough time to answer you...but please bare with me as I am a slow writer...
Coo-uhl.
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aiopj:
By the way, Christ is referred to as both "Redeemer" and "Savior."
Yes, of course. Both titles are required to capture the fullness of who He is. [Smile] Redemption is not possible without salvation and salvation alone stops short of God's plan.

The way I see it: we are reconciled back into the household of God. We become God's children through salvation unto eternal life. We become God's heirs through reconciliation.

We are heirs (sons) of the King and therefore, are destined to rule as our Father rules. Ruling often includes the conversion of others but it is not the primary goal.

Aaron
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Ruling often includes the conversion of others but it is not the primary goal.
I really appreciate the brisk enthusiastic discussion, not for discussion's sake, rather for truly seeking the Truth.

Unless one is born again, he is not redeemed and he is not saved. No matter what you call it, he's got a ticket waiting for him at the door downstairs.

Therefore, the goal is to be born again.

No one can be born again unless he sees himself in the mirror of the Word. He must see his condition before God. There must be a godly sorrow [2 Corinthians 7:9].

So, our mission is to deliver the Message as Jesus came to deliver It. There is no other more important work.
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aiopj:
Therefore, the goal is to be born again.
The goal of what, exactly? 'Cause I got a heap of "then what?..." scriptures. [Razz]

Aaron
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
aiopj, now this is the kind of stuff I was talking about. You said:

"Fully two days after I posted the introductory thing to this thread, there isn't even one reply to it. Not so much as even 'Praise the Lord!' or 'Thank You, Lord!' Incredible."

"What happened to all those who claim to be so excited about the Lord, who say that the Lord has done so much for them?"

Eden here:

Not everyone is blessed with the circumstances which make it easy and always convenient to study the Word of God. There are numerous Christian families who have many time-consuming duties which, perhaps unlike you, does not allow them to participate often and/or even have what it takes to participate with, given how their many other familiy duties have left little time for studying the Word or listening to the Word on tape while the little ones are getting "into everything".

For this reason I say, that everyone's circumstances are different. You, aiopj, seems to have a lot of time to study, and to your honor, that is indeed what you have done.

But even temperamentally and genetically and family-historically, everyone is different and have come to Christ with different abilities, fears and confidences.

I'm reminded of the Lord saying to the disciples:

Luke 10:20
Notwithstanding, rejoice not that the spirits are subject to you; but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.

So let me repeat what you said, aiopj:

"Fully two days after I posted the introductory thing to this thread, there isn't even one reply to it. Not so much as even 'Praise the Lord!' or 'Thank You, Lord!' Incredible."

"What happened to all those who claim to be so excited about the Lord, who say that the Lord has done so much for them?"

Eden here: Hello, I work 55 hours per week to pay the bills plus do chores. I may be able to get to you in one or two days...be blessed and rejoice in the Lord while you wait...

It' time for the title of your Topic: Love and Compassion

love, Eden
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by aiopj:
Therefore, the goal is to be born again.
The goal of what, exactly? 'Cause I got a heap of "then what?..." scriptures. [Razz]
Aaron
What can be more exact than my saying that the goal is to be born again?

No one is saved, nor redeemed, or whatever, unless they are born again. The Word already spells out precisely what it takes to be born again.
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Not everyone is blessed with the circumstances which make it easy and always convenient to study the Word of God. There are numerous Christian families who have many time-consuming duties which, perhaps unlike you, does not allow them to participate often and/or even have what it takes to participate with, given how their many other familiy duties have left little time for studying the Word or listening to the Word on tape while the little ones are getting "into everything".
God says a person must make a choice.

Time doesn't find you. You find time. It all depends how important it is to you:

quote:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
So, He offers people the opportunity. He's done all He can do. The rest is up to people.

People say they are overwhelmed by circumstances. The choice is still theirs.

If they choose circumstances over Him, He does not wave them through, even though He told us not to let circumstances rule. It's tough love.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
... everyone's circumstances are different.
The requirements of the Word are not. They apply to everyone equally. God does not say, "All right, you have a television program to watch, and, so, you get a pass." He says, "I give you blessings and curses. You choose." He doesn't say, "Well, if you don't have time to do this, you have an exemption."

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
... even temperamentally and genetically and family-historically, everyone is different and have come to Christ with different abilities, fears and confidences.
Still, the Word is the same for everybody. The cure for all ills, etc., apply to all alike. There is ONLY One Way for all.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:I'm reminded of the Lord saying to the disciples:

Luke 10:20
Notwithstanding, rejoice not that the spirits are subject to you; but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.
That doesn't apply to me because I'm not trying to control anybody. The Word says that I am to remind my brothers and sisters in the Lord that they must stay on course, that their lord is not circumstances.

I'm pointing out only that everybody has the same chance, and that the requirements of the Word apply to all equally. It's up to the individual to step up to the plate. To choose blessings, or curses. Saying, for instance, that one doesn't have time does not stay that choice. The Lord says that a person must choose between circumstances and Him. You must fit Him in, or you don't fit Him in.

Now, if a person makes excuses and expects a waiver, or variance, from the Lord cuz of his circumstances, he's gonna wait a long time and not get one. The Lord is not flexible on this. He is not tolerant. It's His Way, or the highway [down].

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
So let me repeat what you said, aiopj:

"Fully two days after I posted the introductory thing to this thread, there isn't even one reply to it. Not so much as even 'Praise the Lord!' or 'Thank You, Lord!' Incredible."

"What happened to all those who claim to be so excited about the Lord, who say that the Lord has done so much for them?"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eden:
I work 55 hours per week to pay the bills plus do chores. I may be able to get to you in one or two days...be blessed and rejoice in the Lord while you wait...
It's not about me, Eden.

It ought to be a joy to anticipate getting back to the Lord after all that, rather than complaining that you have no time to get back to the Lord. Your refuge is in the Lord, not wallowing in pity for yourself cuz circumstances have overwhelmed you. The Word says that you, through It, have the power to overcome those circumstances. They, too, are mountains that you allow in your way.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:It' time for the title of your Topic: Love and Compassion
You view "love" and "compassion" as meaning that I must enable you to avoid the Lord just cuz you say you are too busy. That's not what the Word says.

In any case, I've already explained "love" and "compassion," and you are continuing to apply a worldly definition of "love" and "compassion" to me in order to try to pressure me just to leave people alone in their pity for themselves. I don't buy it. Neither does the Lord.

Listening for and to the Lord means that, sometimes, you just plain stop what you're doing and listen for and to Him. If circumstances rule, then a person won't do that. It's that simple.

Finally, I'm not going to do a Peter, denying the Lord.

I know that people want me to enable them, to say, "There, there, you poor thing." That would mean that I must deny the Word, admit that circumstances overwhelm the Lord, rather than the other way around. What they say and what the Word says are two different things. 180° of variance.

People want not to hear that, and, so, they blame me. It can't be them, can it.

Now, understand that I'm not fazed by the blame. I'm staying with the Lord, no matter what. If others want to give circumstances sway over their lives, that's their choice. Neither time, nor circumstances, make me. I make them.
 
Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by aiopj:
[QUOTE]What can be more exact than my saying that the goal is to be born again?
Are you a parent? If you are then you understand that birth is just the beginning of a father's desire. And, for a father, there is little work involved in a child's birth. But to raise a child to properly reflect the character of the father...that takes much more energy. In birth the father can rejoice over new life but in the maturity of the child the father rejoices because his kingdom is increased...and new life can be had by more.

So, no, being born again is NOT the goal. We are saved FOR something, not just to avoid Hell. And this is not to downplay Heaven. Certainly not. In fact, when I'm not here you'll find me in Heaven. But my salvation was simply the means by which I was included in the Kingdom of God, to do His will and work in the earth.

Jhn 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work."

His work was to provide the way in which men could be redeemed. When He said "It is finished" He meant that that specific work was completed.

For Hebrews goes on to say...

Hbr 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever.

So, through redemption, men are brought into the Body of Christ and Christ works in the earth through the church who is His body. Such a reality requires new birth AND training (suffering) to properly reflect the Son.

Aaron
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
For all the talk about love and compassion, seems to be very few trying to get a better handle on them.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, aiopj, you said:

"For all the talk about love and compassion, seems to be very few trying to get a better handle on them."

Eden here: Well, ya, it's not easy. The Devil never gave us much love and compassion, so after having been in the line of Adam and Eve for so long, we have acquired some bad habits.

But I have heard the Lord's call to "love my neighbor as myself", and that my neighbor includes my wife or my husband. The Spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. Not an excuse, but a truth.

Therefore Jesus died for us, not because we were so good, but because we were so bad. He loved us while we were yet sinners. So all of us, including you, aiopj, are struggling and trying our best with this love and compassion thing.

Some days our love and compassion is more evident than others, but then, as a friend once said, "my spirit is willing but then my flesh acks up".

And, by reading the Word of God we can learn about the love and compassion that the Devil never taught us.

You yourself are not exempt from being more loving and compassionate; you clearly do have a lot of knowledge and you are very good at placing what you know in good locations as responses, but you do act a bit arrogantly, like, why isn't EVERYBODY as good as ME by now????

Knowledge without compassion is not a good thing.

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing.

"God, be merciful to me a sinner" should always be our cry, not, "God, why aren't others like me??"

with love, Eden
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
..all of us, including you, aiopj, are struggling and trying our best with this love and compassion thing.
As I explained in the opening post, I'm not struggling with it.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Some days our love and compassion is more evident than others, but then, as a friend once said, "my spirit is willing but then my flesh acks up".
The ultimate expression of biblical love is to declare the Word of God and let the chips fall where they may.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
And, by reading the Word of God we can learn about the love and compassion that the Devil never taught us.
As I pointed out, I learned about love and compassion. I found out that they are not the worldly kind, rather the godly kind, as I explained way above there.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
You yourself are not exempt from being more loving and compassionate...
You're trying to apply a worldly definition of love and compassion. I am operating under the godly definition of love and compassion that I explained in the opening post.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
... you clearly do have a lot of knowledge and you are very good at placing what you know in good locations as responses, but you do act a bit arrogantly, like, why isn't EVERYBODY as good as ME by now????
That's a subjective evaluation, a reaction triggered by offense. Try to get over it.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Knowledge without compassion is not a good thing.
I explain what love and compassion are in the opening post.

Still, you continue to try to apply a worldly standard of love and compassion, not a godly standard.

As I say, the ultimate love and compassion that a person who is truly born again can have is to declare the Word, and let the chips fall where they may.

quote:
Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing.
The word "charity" there means "love." It is not the worldly love you're trying to apply.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
"God, be merciful to me a sinner" should always be our cry, not, "God, why aren't others like me??"
Of course, you misrepresent what I've written. I've never written, "God, why aren't others like me??"

You're getting a bit carried away by your subjective evaluations, aren't you?
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, aiopj. You said to Eden: "The word "charity" there means "love." It is not the worldly love you're trying to apply."

Eden here: How do you know I am applying worldly love? I am fully aware that charity there means godly love.

I know that with the Holy Spirit to help us, we can be a bit more loving and compassionate than we were before.

Unless you maintain, aiopj, that the only Godly love is to preach the Word of God.

Jesus preached the Word of God and was doing the Father's business, but Jesus was also a very loving and kind and sweet and friendly and considerate and caring Person WHILE He presented His message.

So Godly love is not just presenting the Word of God, but it is also HOW we present the Word of God.

This Adam and Eve flesh doesn't know much about love anymore because of sin, but with the help of the Holy Spirit and by learning what love and compassion is in the Word of God, we can also present His message with a degree of kindness, not worldly kindness, but Godly kindness.

Eden
 
Posted by aiopj (Member # 6768) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
How do you know I am applying worldly love? I am fully aware that charity there means godly love.
However, you are applying a worldly standard to godly love. I know this because I explained what love and compassion are, in the biblical sense. They have nothing to do with feelings. They have nothing to do with including in my posts the words, "In love." They have to do with declaring the Word of God, regardless of the consequences.

Another way I see that you are talking about a worldly standard applied to godly "love" is that you are focused on trying to get me to appease men, the world. You are trying to communicate to me that men -- that is, the world -- is displeased with me, that I need to knuckle under, change, so that they can feel better.

You forget that those who are truly born again are interested only in pleasing God, not men.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Unless you maintain, aiopj, that the only Godly love is to preach the Word of God.
That's the gist of the Word.

God declared His love by sending His Word. We declare our godly love by declaring His Word, sending It out.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Jesus preached the Word of God and was doing the Father's business, but Jesus was also a very loving and kind and sweet and friendly and considerate and caring Person WHILE He presented His message.
So I'm I.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
So Godly love is not just presenting the Word of God, but it is also HOW we present the Word of God.
I present It in a direct way. People have to choose whether they receive It. I have no control over that.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
This Adam and Eve flesh doesn't know much about love anymore because of sin, but with the help of the Holy Spirit and by learning what love and compassion is in the Word of God, we can also present His message with a degree of kindness, not worldly kindness, but Godly kindness.
Thank God I am.

The kind of "love" and "compassion" about which you write is the kind that tries to appease men. Its focus is on making them feel better. It's about Salvation, not feeling better.

The "feeling better" comes from the Word, not from the world. The world will not save itself, and the world will not save you, nor me.

If people let themselves be hindered, let "mountains" get in the way of the Truth, that's not my doing. Their perceptions are the mountains, and they can march around that mountain for as long as it takes them to get tired of it, then, pray those mountainous perceptions away so that they can see the Truth of what I write. In many cases, seeing the Truth in what I write will take going to the Word of Truth, to compare my stuff to the Word, to see whether my stuff jibes.

As an example, my father doesn't like to watch T.D. Jakes. My father says that he yells too much.

In other words, my father is saying that Jakes is hindering him from getting the Truth.

That's not true. Jakes is not. Jakes is not the mountain. My father's perception is the mountain. My father is letting himself hinder himself from hearing the Truth. That's the way the Devil works on people and makes it seem as though the problem is with the person who delivers the Truth. People happily comply.

Mark 11 is the answer, wherein Jesus says that you can pray mountains -- that is, hindrances -- away so you can have a line-of-sight view of and passage to the Truth.

I'm big framed and I have a big voice and I gesture a lot.

I've been told that, even though I am expressing the Truth, this threatens people. In other words, my big voice and gesturing, to them, have more power over them than God. I know that because, like you, they have said that people stop listening.

I tell them that God tells them that they must get over it, that they are letting those mountains -- that is those hindrances -- stop them from hearing and getting at the Truth. I'm not the mountain; their perceptions are the mountains.

So it is here, and people make up all kinds of excuses not to hear the Truth. It doesn't impact my Salvation. The Word doesn't tell me anything other than that I must declare the Word. I can't do anything but give them the GPS that God gave me -- The God Positioning System -- to get through this wilderness. The bottom line is that they get to choose what's more important to them and what has more power over them -- their perceptions, or God.
 
Posted by lonlesol (Member # 4511) on :
 
quote:
You forget that those who are truly born again are interested only in pleasing God, not men.
Pleasing God actually means showing/demonstrating love and compassion towards our neighbor by our words and actions (spouse and children included)...

If people do not sense our love and compassion towards them, then we are obviously not showing it or giving it to them, therefore it comes down to them not feeling it...don't you think?...

When people do not feel loved by us, are we then pleasing the Lord?...I find it hard to believe that God would appreciate it if we didn't show people that we love them...it would surely be against His Word...

For instance, using a computer to communicate with others has it's limitations...our words appearing on a screen can easily be misinterpreted by others if there is a lack of emotion in them...



quote:
The Word doesn't tell me anything other than that I must declare the Word.
But declaring the Word means showing love and compassion towards others, aiopj...why do you think that I haven't pmd you back?...because I did not feel compassion coming from you at all because you haven't even responded to the last pm I sent you...to me, it felt like you were simply not interested in sharing your opinion on the subject... [Confused]
 
Posted by PresbyGirl (Member # 6818) on :
 
This is a topic of great interest to me. It saddens me to see that so many people who claim the name of Jesus are so far from the heart of Jesus. So many truths come from Christian mouths in ways that belie the One who is Truth. Jesus came to us as the embodiment of both Truth AND Grace. Truth without grace leads one into the error of the Pharisees. Grace without truth leads one to licenciousness. Both are distortions of the person and character of Jesus.

In Christ, God is looking for much more than filling heaven with law abiding citizens. He is looking to populate His family with lovers because He Himself is the essence of love. I know love sometimes has to be tough, sometimes has to seem harsh, sometimes can even feel unloving. But those situations are not the norm. They are the exception. When a person is speaking to fellow believers, sisters and brothers with whom you share the same spirit, then grace, compassion, gentleness and kindness, it seems to me, nneeds to be the default setting. Harsh words must come sometimes, but only when necessary to rescue someone from the fire.

If sisters and brothers in Christ consistently sense an unloving spirit in a person, I belive it is incumbent upon that person to do some self-examination in the presence of the Holy Spirit, honestly asking God to search his or her heart for anything that may be contrary to the Spirit of Christ. I do not say that directed at anyone but myself. There are many times when I find myself speaking and acting from a harsh and condemning spirit, and I am so grateful for sisters and brothers who, in love, check me when I do it. THe accusing finger, I find, usually points at myself.

I agree that the highest love is to care for the eternal wellbeing of other people's souls and to be willing to sacrifice one's life to that end. But the expression of that kind of love can take many different forms. I don't believe Scriptures support the idea that the ONLY expression of godly love is to speak biblical truth. Jesus demonstrated a very different kind of love. The Bible says numerous times that he was moved to compassion, and what did He do? He didn't quote Scripture. He healed. He touched. He invited. He fellowshipped with people. He received sinners and embraced them. It was primarily the Bible-quoters for whom His harshest words were reserved.

I am not against quoting the Bible. I love the Scriptures, and I spend a great deal of time reading, meditating and praying them, as well as sharing and discussing them with others. But I am with Eden on this one. Even if I could quote the Bible from cover to cover, even if I obeyed every law in it EXCEPT for the most important one, I am no more than a cacophonous sound. And what is that most important one? LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. According to Jesus, ALL the law and the prophets are summed in that one sentence.

Salvation means much more than believing or being "redeemed." THe word Jesus uses for salvation is the Greek word that is also translated "healing." Truth points us in the right direction, but love alone heals. Love alone has the power to transform human beings into the image of Christ. Love alone brings salvation. If it isn't loving, it isn't saving.
 
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi PresbyGirl,
Its nice to meet you. In Johns epistles he states that the lack of love reveals hypocrisy in our faith. This sure gives us a measure by which to examine our own hearts.

Love is the fullfillment of the law.

By Gods love, we are stengthened to love.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hey, PresbyGirl, I thought thiw was some great stuff of yours and the Holy Spirit. You wrote:

"It saddens me to see that so many people who claim the name of Jesus are so far from the heart of Jesus. So many truths come from Christian mouths in ways that belie the One who is Truth. Jesus came to us as the embodiment of both Truth AND Grace."

"Truth without grace leads one into the error of the Pharisees. Grace without truth leads one to licenciousness. Both are distortions of the person and character of Jesus."

"In Christ, God is looking for much more than filling heaven with law abiding citizens. He is looking to populate His family with lovers because He Himself is the essence of love."

"I know love sometimes has to be tough, sometimes has to seem harsh, sometimes can even feel unloving. But those situations are not the norm. They are the exception."

" When a person is speaking to fellow believers, sisters and brothers with whom you share the same spirit, then grace, compassion, gentleness and kindness, it seems to me, needs to be the default setting. Harsh words must come sometimes, but only when necessary to rescue someone from the fire."

Eden here: Terrific stuff. I love the way the Holy Spirit and you talk. What a GentleMan He is.

May God help us to love each other,
Eden
 
Posted by PresbyGirl (Member # 6818) on :
 
Good morning Eden and One in Christ. Nice to meet you too! Thank you for your kind words, and may God richly bless your day!
 
Posted by Kwistina (Member # 6618) on :
 
Lonlesol, I have a question for you, not entirely unrelated to this topic. You say you are recently born again, am I correct?

How did this transformation take place, if you don't mind my asking?

And as for the current heated discussion, this is as far as I will go for the moment. I feel it is relevant, but it is both creating division and doing so pointlessly. Should we not, instead, agree to disagree? Humble ourselves, join ranks in our mission to Christ of creating disciples? How does this discussion edify anyone here? I agree that healthy discussion is invigorating and challenging for growth, but this, I feel, has gone beyond healthy discussion and into the domain of Christian division, which hinders the message of Christ more than just about anything else I can think of. With all do respect, if any unbeleivers came upon this current discussion, on many points they would find reason to view our Lord with contempt because of the profound abuse some here are giving to others. We are the image of Christ, the only one the world has. Should not that image portray him as he was? Then again, that is the topic. We seem to disagree on the method of portrayal.
I'm not saying you should compromise on the essentials, but on issues where the scripture is even a little questionable, it is best to say "I respectfully disagree". Areas where this is impossible are, say, the gospel itself. We have a right to divide when someone says that Christ is not divinity. We do not have the right to divide when someone decides that love means this or that-it does not apply to the gospel and is not essential to our faith.

I will let the word speak for itself, and encourage you to read the entire chapter/section for contextual confirmation:

"Keep reminding them of these things . . warn them before God against quarreling about words. It is of no value and only ruins those who listen. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:14-15, NIV)",
and
"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels, and the Lords servant must not quarrel, instead he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct . . . (2 Timothy 2: 23-25, NIV)"

Maybe our interpretation of love should begin with how Christ showed love. And I do not mean through his death. That was done because of his love. How did he show love to the world prior to his death, during his ministry? What example did he give us? There is much quibbling of words here, but why has no one asked this question of questions? Is not the example of Christ the means we should use to shed light on the subject? I do not wish to express more at this point. Biblical example is all I ask.
 
Posted by lonlesol (Member # 4511) on :
 
quote:
You say you are recently born again, am I correct?

How did this transformation take place, if you don't mind my asking?
It has been three years now, but it still feels like it was yesterday eventhough many things have happenned prior to that day and since then...

It was a long process that started thirteen years earlier, in 1994. That year, on Mother's Day, May 8th, I gave birth to a baby boy that had a spinal cord defect, he had severe Spina Bifida...my husband and I were devastated by the news, we were both hoping that the doctor had made a mistake but he obviously didn't...

As I was by myself, holding my son in my arms at the hospital, just moments before he died on May 28th 1994, I made him a promise. I promised him that within ten years I would find a way to tell women about taking a supplement vitamin called Folic Acid to prevent the risk of giving birth to a baby afflicted with Spina Bifida...

After his death, as the years went by, I grew very bitter towards everyone that breathed and everything that moved...I hated my life and I could feel that our marriage was going nowhere how I dreamed that it would at the beginning of our marriage...I resented my husband for not showing me that he loved me or even cared about me...he was obviously having the same struggles that I was having about life and death...

The first few years after our son died, I started painting using oil on canvas...oh nothing to brag about, I was just trying to imitate other painters' works...what I really liked to paint were faces of people mostly with a blank look on their faces, with no smiles, and no expression, just a blank look...then I started making quilts for a few other years...I just wanted to keep my mind occupied I suppose...

In the year 2003, I followed the show American Idol season 2...I liked a particular contestant called Clay Aiken...you must have heard of him?...there was something about this guy that I simply couldn't put out of my mind...at first, it was his voice but after a while, it was obviously something else...I am not the kind of woman that gets all gaga over a singer...I was never a fan of any singer whoever that singer may be...like I said, it was something else that I couldn't explain...

After the show ended, I did the unthinkable...I googled his name on the internet...I found various message boards and I also found some songs that he had sung when he was younger...I especially liked the song ''I Know How The River Feels''...that song spoke to me eventhough I didn't quite understand the meaning of the lyrics. I had never heard the song before...I am a French speaking person by the way, not English...

I had this obsession about Clay Aiken's closed eyes...there was something about those eyes!...I wasn't lusting over him at all, it wasn't that. I never worshipped him, that wasn't it either...as I was looking at some of my deceased son's pictures one evening, I compared both their eyes, and the expression on the rest of their faces as well...then it just hit me, the expression was the same...an expression that was beyond this world, an expression of relief, of peace, or was it of gratitude maybe, I am not sure...

Then a thought came through my mind...I thought, hey, this is the perfect place to talk about Folic Acid!...this message board is full of women that need to know about Folic Acid!...so I wrote my son's short life story in a form of a poem that I posted on that message board...

A few months later in the year 2004, as I was listening to another of his songs that he sung when he was younger ''More To This Life'' over and over again, I posted a request asking other posters of that message board to explain to me the meaning of the lyrics of that song...I knew that the song spoke of Jesus, but all I could hear was that I needed to die to find happiness...it so happened that I was feeling very depressed at the time because our marriage wasn't doing so well, I was thinking about ending my life to stop the hurting...

Someone then, (a Christian lady), suggested to me to read the Bible...so I bought one and I did...I started studying it using that message board while she, along with other Christian ladies, helped me to understand the Scriptures...a few weeks after I started studying it, I had reached the chapter of John 3, about Jesus Teaching Nicodemus...especially this part:

*...3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."...*


In other words,

To be born once is to die twice...
To be born again is to die once...

To be born once but never accept
the Lord in your heart,
is to die of an earthly death
and of a heavenly death...

To be born again,
is to die of an earthly death,
Follow Jesus,
and Live for Eternity...


"I tell you the truth,
no one can see the Kingdom of God
unless he is born again."...
John 3:3


Once I fully understood what those Scriptures meant, I accepted Jesus in my heart...

Unfortunatelly, my husband was completely against what I was doing on the computer...I spent sooooo many hours studying the Bible online, talking with those Christian ladies, praying for and encouraging others, going to Church...I had this need to learn as much as I could and as fast as I could, but my husband hated that...nevertheless, there was nothing that could stop me from studying and reading the Bible, it had become very important...but never never did I neglect him nor did I our daughter (14 years old at the time), or the housework, or the cooking, or the laundry, or anything else around the house...unfortunately, a few months prior to giving my heart to Jesus, I also started smoking again after having stopped for five years (just cigarettes, I do not drink or take drugs at all). We had gone thought one of our numerous arguments that evening and I was sooooo fed up with all that fighting in the house...my husband then started to be on my back for having started smoking again and my daughter followed his footsteps...our house had turned to hell, litterally, but I still couldn't stop doing what I was doing which was reading the Bible and smoking cigarettes...the thing is that he is a smoker himself...in other words, he was telling me what to do, without stopping himself...I was sooooo stressed out but still I continued...

I have tried to explain to my husband what I had found but he wouldn't hear me at all...last year, on Father's Day, my husband demanded a divorce. The next day, as they were both preparing their suitcases, my daughter came to me and asked me if I intended on keeping reading the Bible and of course, my answer was yes to her without hesitation...she then just turned around, walked in her bedroom and continued on making her suitcase...I found out later that his girlfriend was living with them, and that they even bought a house last summer...

I always tried to educate our daughter the best way that I could with the knowledge that I had, I have always tried to love my husband the best way that I could, also with the knowledge that I had but I do know that I have made mistakes...I cannot change what happened in the past, I can only go forward and do the best that I possibly can, with God's help...I never wanted this divorce, it isn't the solution...I believe in reconciliation, not divorce...

I was sincerely hoping that by learning God's Word would help me, help my husband and my daughter to live a life according to God's Will...I failed big time...they both turned they back on me and on God...and now, I have to live with the consequences of my actions but I know that God has forgiven me...I repent each and every day...I praise God, because without Him I am nothing but a filthy rag...

For years we had both agreed that I would be a stay at home wife/mom to take care of them but it seems that I wasn't good enough...since last year after my husband and daughter left, I found a job in a home for elderly people. I take care of their daily personnal needs, I feed them, I give them their medications, I talk with them, I love them, I treat them with respect, I help them die with dignity, and hopefully, they too will find Jesus before they go...


There are many many more details but I would rather stop here...I hope this answers your question... [hug]
 
Posted by lonlesol (Member # 4511) on :
 
quote:
And as for the current heated discussion, this is as far as I will go for the moment. I feel it is relevant, but it is both creating division and doing so pointlessly. Should we not, instead, agree to disagree?
I am almost glad that I didn't read the entire thread...it doesn't look very good doesn it... [Frown]
 




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