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Posted by TheGreatSouthLand (Member # 6062) on :
 
We attend a church where our minister is very big on tithing. He quotes Malachi 3:10 (Bring the whole tithe into the house....Test me and see...) My question is this. Do we as New Testement believers need to tithe. When Christ died on the cross he paid for, and abolished all the laws that the Children of Israel were living under. Tithing is one of these. Should we not now be people who GIVE because we want to give, rather than TITHE because we have to. I realise that it is God who supplies all our needs. And it is because of Him that we have food on our tables and clothes on our backs. Shouldn't we give out of love for Him for all that he has done for us. Can we expect people to tithe of they can't put enough food on the table for their families (I've been there) Telling people that they should tithe, and that if they don't they are robbing God is more of a guilt trip thing and a law rather than something that is done out of the heart, no matter how big the offering is.
Anyway. What do others think
Thanks
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Jesus did not abolish the OT Laws, he fulfilled them. There is a huge difference.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

However, the tithe is not scriptural for the NT church because the tithe was for the Levite Presithood, which no longer exists. It was changed. We are the preisthood.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The church should be taking care of the church... not as in building but as in body. There should not be lack in the body because we should be one.. sharing each others burdens those who have providing for those who lack as the Apostolic church did.

Acts 2:42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.


The reason pastors preach tithing is that it is needed to run church buildings and provide pastor's salaries, but this is not the way of the apostolic church.

Yes, we should give and give cheerfully. We should give abundantly, and we should take care of each other for we are ONE body.

Ga 6:2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

Ac 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

So, we might give 50 or 60 or 90 percent. What ever we have of this world's wealth is not ours anyway.. it is given to us to use as we have need and to bless others.

But the reason there is not any "tithe" for the NT church is not that the Law is abolished, but that the priesthood is changed and there is no Levite priesthood to give tithe to. We have a new preisthood, of whom Christ is the HIGH Priest after the order of Melchizedek, and we are the body of that High Priest.
 
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on :
 
I think HFHS has hit the nail on the head.
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
I agree.
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
This is a good questions. I believe we should give everything we have back to God.

One more time (BACK TO GOD) not to Preachers that take that scripture out of context so they can force people to give to their Church. You don't have to give to a certain Church. But give to God whom will not keep your money for Himself but help others with it.

The below is a very good study on this subject:

:::::::::::::::::::

"Will a man ROB God?" How many untold tens of thousands of men will give account one day for teaching this verse in Malachi 3:8 totally out of context for their own sordid gain. I couldn’t count the times I have heard self-appointed ministers of the gospel berate their congregations and listeners for "robbing God" in tithes and offerings. This verse in Malachi certainly means what it says. Someone was defrauding God of tithes and offerings, but wait until you find out who it is that God blames for this act.

On any given Sunday morning there will be numerous men-of-the-cloth who will be bellowing out over the air waves that people are being "cursed with a curse" because they have failed to pay God ten percent of their paychecks. And should such a gullible listener decide to repent and give God ten percent of his salary, just how would he do that? Just keep reading. These men of the cloth who often have unquenchable worldly desires of the flesh, will be sure to give you an address where you can send them (or, ah, rather God) your tithe. And do they have a right to quote these Scriptures in this manner? No they do not, and furthermore they themselves know better.

continue reading this by going to the below link:

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
Tithing and Clergy Salaries
by Frank Viola

Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit.
-Paul of Tarsus

Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. But you ask, `How do we rob you? ' In tithes and offerings. You are under curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this, says the Lord Almighty, and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.'

This passage from Malachi Chapter 3 seems to be many a pastor's favorite Bible text. Especially when church giving is at low tide. If you have spent any time in the modern church, you have heard this passage thundered from the pulpit on numerous occasions. I have had it pushed down my throat so many times I have lost count.

Consider some of the rhetoric that goes with it:

"God has commanded you to faithfully give your tithes. If you do not tithe, you are robbing God Almighty, and you put yourself under a curse."

"Let's repeat the 'Tither 's Creed' together shall we? `The tithe is the Lord's. In truth we learned it. In faith we believe it. In joy we give it. The tithe!'"

"Your tithes and offerings are necessary if God's work will go on!" ("God's work," of course, means salarying the pastoral staff and footing the monthly electric bill to keep the building afloat.)

What is the result of this sort of pressure? God's people are guilted into giving one-tenth of their incomes every week. When they do, they feel they have made God happy. And they can expect Him to bless them financially. When they fail, they feel they are being disobedient, and a financial curse looms over them.

But let us take a few steps backward and ask the penetrating question: "Does the Bible teach us to tithe? And ... are we spiritually obligated to fund the pastor and his staff? "

The answer to these two questions is shocking. (If you are a pastor, it is arresting. So you may want to take out your heart medicine now!)

Is Tithing Biblical?

Tithing does appear in the Bible. So yes, tithing is Biblical. But it is not Christian. The tithe belongs to ancient Israel. It was essentially their income tax. Never do you find first-century Christians tithing in the NT.

Most Christians do not have the foggiest idea about what the Bible teaches regarding the tithe. So let us look at it. The word "tithe" simply means the tenth part.' The Lord instituted three kinds of tithes for Israel as part of their taxation system. They are:

A tithe of the produce of the land to support the Levites who had no inheritance in Canaan.'

A tithe of the produce of the land to sponsor religious festivals in Jerusalem. If the produce was too burdensome for a family to carry to Jerusalem, they could convert it into money.'

A tithe of the produce of the land collected every third year for the local Levites, orphans, strangers, and widows.'

This was the Biblical tithe. Notice that God commanded Israel to give 23.3% of their income every year, as opposed to 10%.6 These tithes consisted of the produce of the land—which is, the seed of the land, the fruit of the land, and the herd or the flock. It was the product of the land, not money.

A clear parallel can be seen between Israel's tithing system and the modern taxation system present in America. Israel was obligated to support their national workers (priests), their holidays (festivals), and their poor (strangers, widows, and orphans) by their annual tithes. Most modern tax systems serve the same purpose.

With the death of Jesus, all ceremonial, governmental, and religious codes that belonged to the Jews were nailed to His cross and buried . . . never to come out again to condemn us. For this reason, we never see Christians tithing in the NT. No more than we see them sacrificing goats and bulls to cover their sins!

Paul writes, "And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross . . . Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."'

Tithing belonged exclusively to Israel under the Law. When it comes to financial stewardship, we see the first-century saints giving cheerfully according to their ability—not dutifully out of a command.' Giving in the early church was voluntary.' And those who benefited from it were the poor, orphans, widows, sick, prisoners, and strangers.10

I can hear someone making the following objection right now: "But what about Abraham? He lived before the Law. And we see him tithing to the high priest Melchizedek." Does this not overturn your argument that the tithe is part of the Mosaic Law? "

No it does not. First, Abraham's tithe was completely voluntary. It was not compulsory. God did not command it as He did with the tithe for Israel.

Second, Abraham tithed out of the spoils that he acquired after a particular battle he fought. He did not tithe out of his own regular income or property. Abraham's act of tithing would be akin to you winning the lottery, a mega jackpot, or receiving a work-bonus, then tithing it.

Third, and most important, this is the only time that Abraham tithed out of his 175 years of life on this earth. We have no evidence that he ever did such a thing again. Consequently, if you wish to use Abraham as a "proof text" to argue that Christians must tithe, then you are only obligated to tithe one time!'2

This brings us back to that oft-quoted text in Malachi 3. What was God saying there? First, this passage was directed to ancient Israel when they were under the Mosaic Law. God's people were holding back their tithes and offerings. Consider what would happen if a large portion of Americans refused to pay their income taxes. American law views this as robbery.13 Those found guilty would be punished for stealing from the government.

In the same way, when Israel held back her taxes (tithes), she was stealing from God—the One who instituted the tithing system. The Lord then commanded His people to bring their tithes into the storehouse. The storehouse was located in the chambers of the temple. The chambers were set apart to hold the tithes (which was produce, not money) for the support of the Levites, the poor, the strangers, and the widows.14

Notice the context of Malachi-3:8-10: In verse 5, the Lord says that He will judge those who oppress the widow, the fatherless, and the stranger. He says, "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be a quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me."

The widows, fatherless, and strangers were the rightful re­cipients of the tithe. Because Israel was withholding her tithes, she was guilty of oppressing these three groups. Herein is the heart of God in Malachi 3:8-10: Oppression to the poor.

How many times have you heard preachers point this out when they harangued you with Malachi 3? Out of the scores of sermons I have heard on tithing, I never once heard a whisper about what the passage was actually talking about. That is, tithes were for the purpose of supporting the widows, the fatherless, the strangers, and the Levites (who owned nothing). This is what the Lord's word in Malachi 3 has in view.

The Origin of the Tithe and the Clergy Salary

Cyprian (200-258) is the first Christian writer to mention the practice of financially supporting the clergy. He argued that just as the Levites were supported by the tithe, so the Christian clergy.

should be supported by the tithe.15 But this is misguided thinking. Today, the Levitical system has been abolished. We are all priests now. So if a priest demands a tithe, then all Christians should tithe to one another!

Cyprian's plea was exceedingly rare for his time. It was neither picked up nor echoed by the Christian populace until much later.16 Other than Cyprian, no Christian writer before Constantine ever used Old Testament references to advocate tithing." It was not until the fourth century, 300 years after Christ, that some Christian leaders began to advocate tithing as a Christian practice to support the clergy.18 But it did not become widespread among Christians until the eighth century! 19 According to one scholar, "For the first seven hundred years they [tithes] are hardly ever mentioned. "20

Charting the history of Christian tithing is a fascinating exercise. Tithing evolved from the State to the church. Giving a tenth of one's produce was the customary rent-charge for lands that were leased in Western Europe. As the church increased its ownership of land across Europe, the 10% rent-charge was given to the church. This gave the 10% rent-charge a new meaning. It came to be identified with the Levitical tithe!21 Consequently, the Christian tithe as an institution was based on a fusion of Old Testament practice and pagan institution.22

By the eighth century, the tithe became required by law in many areas of Western Europe.23 By the end of the tenth century, the distinction of the tithe as a rent-charge and a moral requirement supported by the Old Testament had faded.24 The tithe became mandatory throughout Christian Europe.25

To put it another way, before the eighth century the tithe was practiced as a voluntary offering.26 But by the end of the tenth century, it had devolved into a legal requirement to fund the State church—demanded by the clergy and enforced by the secular authorities!27

Thankfully, most modern churches have done away with the tithe as a legal requirement.28 But the practice of tithing is as much alive today as it was when it was legally binding. Sure, you may not be physically punished if you fail to tithe. But if you are not a tither in most modern churches, you will be barred from a slew of ministry positions. And you will be forever guilted from the pulpit!29

As far as clergy salaries go, ministers were unsalaried for the first three centuries. But when Constantine appeared, he instituted the practice of paying a fixed salary to the clergy from church

funds and municipal and imperial treasuries.30 Thus was born the clergy salary, a harmful practice that has no root in the NT.31

The Root of All Evil

If a believer wishes to tithe out of personal decision or conviction, that is fine. Tithing becomes a problem when it is rep-resented as God's command, binding upon every believer.

Mandatory tithing equals oppression to the poor.32 Not a few poor Christians have been thrown headlong into further poverty because they have been told that if they do not tithe, they are robbing God.33 When tithing is taught as God's command, Christians who can barely make ends meet are guilted into deeper poverty. In this way, tithing evacuates the gospel from being "good news to the poor."34 Rather than good news, it becomes a heavy burden. Instead of liberty, it becomes oppression. We are so apt to forget that the original tithe that God established for Israel was to benefit the poor, not hurt them!

Conversely, modern tithing is good news to the rich. To a high-earner, 10% is but a paltry sum. Tithing, therefore, appeases the consciences of the rich, while it has no significant impact on their lifestyles. Not a few wealthy Christians are deluded into thinking they are "obeying God" because they throw a measly 10% of their income into the offering plate.

But God has a very different view of giving. Recall the parable of the widow's mite: "Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. `I tell you the truth, ' He said, `this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

Sadly, tithing is often viewed as a litmus test for discipleship. If you are a good Christian, you will tithe (so it is thought). But this is a bogus application. Tithing is no sign of Christian devotion. If it were, all first-century Christians would be condemned as being undevoted!

The lingering root behind the sustained push for tithing in the modern church is the clergy salary. Not a few pastors feel that they must preach tithing to remind their congregation of its obligation to support them and their programs. And they will use the promise of financial blessing or the fear of a financial curse to ensure that the tithes keep rolling in.

In this way, modern tithing is the equivalent of a Christian lottery. Pay the tithe, and God will give you more money in return. Refuse to tithe, and God will punish you. Such thoughts rip at the heart of the good news of the gospel.

The same can be said about the clergy salary. It too has no NT merit. In fact, the clergy salary runs against the grain of the entire New Covenant.36 Elders (shepherds) in the first century were never salaried.37 They were men with an earthly vocation.38 They gave to the flock rather than took from it.39

Salarying pastors makes them paid professionals. It elevates them above the rest of God's people. It creates a clerical caste that turns the living Body of Christ into a business. Since the pastor and his staff are "paid" to do ministry—they are the paid professionals. The rest of the church lapses into a state of passive dependence.

If every Christian got in touch with the call that lies upon them to be functioning priests in the Lord's house (and they were permitted to exercise that call), the question would immediately arise: "What on earth are we paying our pastor for!? "

But in the presence of a passive priesthood, such questions never arise.40 On the contrary, when the church functions as she should, a professional clergy becomes unnecessary. Suddenly, the thought that says, "that is the job of the pastor" looks heretical. Put simply, a professional clergy fosters the pacifying illusion that the Word of God is classified (and dangerous) material that only card-carrying experts can handle.41

But that is not all. Paying a pastor forces him to be a man-pleaser. It makes him the slave of men. His meal-ticket is attached to how well his congregation likes him. Thus he is not free to speak freely without the fear that he may lose some heavy tithers. Herein lies the scourge of the pastor system.

A further peril of the paid pastor system is that it produces men who are void of any skill—something we inherited from the pagan Greeks.42 For this reason, it takes a man of tremendous courage to step out of the pastorate.

Unfortunately, most of God's people are deeply naive about the overwhelming power of the pastor system. It is a faceless system that does not tire of chewing up and spitting out its young.43 Again, God never intended the professional pastorate to exist. There is no Scriptural mandate or justification for such a thing. In fact, it is impossible to construct a Biblical defense for it.44

Most frequently, ushers are called upon to handle the reception of the money during the church service. Typically, they do so by passing a "collection plate" to the congregation. The practice of passing the collection plate is another post-apostolic invention. It began in 1662. Although alms dishes and alms chests were present before then.45

The usher originated from Queen Elizabeth I's (1533-1603) reorganization of the liturgy of the church of England. Ushers had the job of seeing where the people sat, collecting the offering, and keeping records of who took communion. The predecessor of the usher is the church "porter." The porter was a minor order (lesser clergy) tracing back to the third century.46 Porters had the duty of superintending lock up and opening of church doors, keeping order in the building, and the general direction of the deacons.47 Porters were replaced by "churchwardens" in England before and during the Reformation period.48 Out of the churchwarden grew the usher.

Conclusion

In conclusion, tithing, while Biblical, is not Christian. Jesus Christ did not affirm it. The first-century Christians did not observe it. And for 300 years, God's people did not practice it. Tithing did not become a widely accepted practice among Chris­tians until the eighth century!

Giving in the NT was according to one's ability. Christians gave to help other believers as well as to support apostolic workers, enabling them to travel and plant churches.49 One of the most outstanding testimonies of the early church has to do with how liberal the Christians were to the poor and needy.50 This is what provoked outsiders, including the philosopher Galen, to watch the awesome, winsome power of the early church and say: "Behold how they love one another. "51

Tithing is only mentioned four times in the NT. But none of these instances applies to Christians.52 Again, tithing belongs to the Old Testament era where a taxation system was needed to support the poor and where a special priesthood was set apart to minister to the Lord. With the coming of Jesus Christ, there has been a "change of law"—the old has been "set aside" and rendered obsolete by the new.53

We are all priests now—free to function in God's house. The Law, the old priesthood, and the tithe have all been crucified. There is now no temple curtain, no temple tax, and no special priesthood that stands between God and man. You, dear Christian, have been set free from the bondage of tithing and from the obligation to support an unbiblical clergy system.

This article has been excerpted from Frank Viola's book Pagan Christianity: The Origins of Our Modern Church Practices. The original chapter contains 53 footnotes supporting the statements in the article. You may order the book at: http://www.ptmin.org/pagan.htm
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
We are on a fixed income and we tithe. When I made minimum wage as a mom with two kids, I tithed. I found that when I tithed God helped my money go further. To me tithing is a priviledge. God can do His work without me, but he allows me to be a part of it and I feel blessed because of this. We had a chance to move to a bigger apartment last month, much closer to my son ( he lives 2 hrs away). I really wanted to move, but I realized that with the rent being 125 more a month, we would not be able to live there and tithed. So we did not move. I am still praying for God to work away for us to move closer to my son, but not at the expense of our tithing.
betty
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
The Widow's Two Mites
(Luke 21:1-4)
41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two *mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."
-----------------

Notice that Jesus did not take the money and give it back to the widow and tell her that she was to poor to give.
Ask most Pastors and they will tell you that those who are some of the most faithful in giving are those who have the least.
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
It's a crying shame that churchianity has taught this practic as scriptural. The tradition of man can be overpowering to those that don't know what the scripture says about tithing.

Just as Satan twisted the scriptures in the desert as he was tempting Jesus, so has modern religion twisted the scriptures for it's own gain.

Nowhere in the bible can you find this modern practic of tithing, Nowhere.

I love to give to those in need, but the modern tithe is the yoke of man.

Your brother in Christ,
Chuck
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I don't see tithing as a yoke. I see tithing to God through my Church as supporting missionaries and other things my Church supports. My Church supports different ministires like one for unwed mothers and men and women in the Navy. Our Church brought a family from New Orleans and set them up in an apartment and provides free schooling for them in our Christian School. I indidividually canot pay for all that myself, but my little money combined with others in the Church does. I would rather pay my tithes and be wrong and then not pay my tithes and then be told by God, Himself that I stoled from Him. No where in the Bible does it say it is a sin to pay tithes.
 
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
The Widow's Two Mites
(Luke 21:1-4)
41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. 42 Then one poor widow came and threw in two *mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury; 44 for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."
-----------------

Notice that Jesus did not take the money and give it back to the widow and tell her that she was to poor to give.
Ask most Pastors and they will tell you that those who are some of the most faithful in giving are those who have the least.

Luke 21:1-4 (King James Version)
"And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."

Treasury...
Treasury...
Treasury...

The subject is very interesting, I've read up on it and I have found some interesting things about it.
The term "Treasury" was first used in classical times to describe the votive buildings erected to house gifts to the gods, such as the Siphnian Treasury in Delphi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasury

That would explain why the woman put in the money, she was giving out of gratitude and devotion to God. She was not obligated to do that. If she kept the money, she would not be stealing from God. Also, I do not believe that this woman was giving to get.

Also, no one touches what is in the treasury.

No televangelists use it to splurge.

This is dedicated completely to God.

Again, tithing is completely unscriptural, no matter how many try to justify it, no matter how many scriptures are twisted, broken and jammed, in an effort to make it all fit in place. It just won't fit, it won't.
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Rose,

There is a difference in a local Pastor and a televegalist. Tithing supports a local Church.
Surely you are not suggest that we no longer have local Churches.
betty
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Mat 23:23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Notice that this is Jesus’ words and He says “these ought ye to have done.

Luk 11:42But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here it is repeated in the book of Luke.



1Cr 9:13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 1Cr 9:14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.


BILLY GRAHAM - WORLD RENOWN EVANGELIST
"The Bible teaches tithing. A tithe is one tenth of your income. That one-tenth of your income belongs to the Lord. In Addition to your tithe, you should give as the Lord has prospered you."
(Rules for Christian Living, pg 40)

DAVID JEREMIAH - AUTHOR, PASTOR, RADIO BIBLE TEACHER
'DON'T YOU DARE SEND YOUR TITHE TO THIS RADIO BROADCAST....YOUR TITHE NEEDS TO GO TO YOUR LOCAL CHURCH......ANY OFFERING OVER AND BEYOND YOUR TITHE COULD COME TO A MINSTRY LIKE THIS, BUT YOUR TITHE GOES TO YOUR LOCAL CHURCH..."
ADRIAN ROGERS - PASTOR BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH, MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE AND SPEAKER ON LOVE WORTH FINDING TV & RADIO MINISTRIES
"GOD'S TITHE IS TO BE BROUGHT TO GOD'S HOUSE ON GOD'S DAY SO THAT GOD'S WORK WILL BE DONE GOD'S WAY..MEN AND WOMEN TODAY ROB GOD BY WITHHOLDING THEIR TITHES AND OFFERINGS...."
(FREEDOM FROM FINANCIAL WORRY, PG 10 & 16, Adrian Rogers)


http://www.bethelcog.org/GA_TithingToday.html
 
Posted by Adv.Christian (Member # 3453) on :
 
Hello all; [wave3]

There has often been much dissension amongst the body of Christ over the “legality” of tithing I believe it is a case of straining to swallow a Nat while swallowing down a Camel.
Rather you choose to call it tithing, offering, giving, supporting or any other title you decide to place upon this it is scriptural to support the church. I am fully aware of the verbiage and the differences between such things as tithing and offerings definitions (for example the statement of offerings can only come after meeting the 10% tithe requirement, or that sacrifices refere to animal sin sacrifices, etc...)
What ever the term we choose to call it; the question is shall we suprt God’s Word? Yes there are certainly ways to support God’s Word with out tithing to an established church however the established church rather we agree with them or not have served God’s purpose for far longer then you or I will ever hope to stand on this earth to reach out to the lost.
I am all too fully aware of the fact that there are those who use the cloak of being men of God in effort to make personal gain and I truly regret that this exists but unfortunately we will deal with this until Christ’s return. The question is will we support God’s Word?
At the risk of making some mad, I have heard this topic discussed to do both justify the not giving to the local church and even justifying abstinence from attending a local church of any kind. Brothers and sisters we need both to support the expansion of God’s Word both monetarily and physically.
I believe 2 Corinthians Chapter 9 applies nicely here.
As always my love to all [hug] and May God Bless [Prayer]
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
The Widow's Two Mites
(Luke 21:1-4)

Notice that Jesus did not take the money and give it back to the widow and tell her that she was to poor to give.
Ask most Pastors and they will tell you that those who are some of the most faithful in giving are those who have the least.

When the widow gave the two mites, Jesus was still alive and they were still under the old covenant.

:::::::::::::::::;

We are to give to God not to Pastors that beg for money.

James 1:27 (KJV)
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Matthew 23:14 (KJV)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

(for ye devour widows’ houses) – this means they take their last penny and spend it on their own wants.

The story of the widow’s mite is about the widow’s heart and not trying to say we are to give to the Pharisees! We are to give to God. We are to give everything to God and when we do we shall be His. But giving to the religious machine is not giving to God. We all will answer to God about when and where we give. And saying I gave to the Church will not cut it when you don’t even know what they do with the money. Most of the money given to Churches go to the administration of the church building and staff. I would say about 95% or more. So they don’t have much left to do with what God actually wanted them to do in the first place.

We are not suppose to go out and create mega social clubs so we have a nice place to play basketball. We are to SEEK the lost and take care of each other. I would rather give my neighbor money to help them when they are in need anytime then pay to support a social club. Who would put my neighbor through the wringer if they ask for help and when they got it, it could be to late and they would most likely not get much anyway. Plus they would get humiliated because their name would be mentioned for the next several Sunday morning because the clubs leader want all to know they gave someone something. Not much but something.

The reason that we are to give is to help other believers that need help. Not so we can build a mega churches and hire paid clergy to run the buildings. God no longer lives in a temple but in the born-again believers. That is where he wants us to invest now, not in mega buildings. I am sure that there will be many so called pastors standing before Jesus and being ask why the widows and fatherless went hungry and had no home because they fleeced the flock for their own agenda’s and forgot what God said to do.

I agree that we are to give everything we have to God (but NOT to the religious machine that calls it’s self the church) only the true born-again believers in Jesus Christ are the Church and they do not just meet in one building and separate themselves from the other members. They are more concerned about helping others both to come to know Jesus and meeting their needs then they are about begging for money every other Sunday for more, more money so they can build a basketball court.

I am so tired of all the fleecing of the flock so (so called) pastors can meet their ego’s and build their personally empires.

May we give all we have to God and help our brothers and sisters in Christ and stop wasting all that money on the religious machine.

May we give to help missionaries so they don’t have to go around begging for money so they can go into the mission field.

I suggest selling some of the buildings and sending missionaries out and take care of all their needs. Then may be they can think about what they are doing and not worry about raising the money to GO.

 -
 
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Rose,

There is a difference in a local Pastor and a televegalist. Tithing supports a local Church.
Surely you are not suggest that we no longer have local Churches.
betty

Oh. Okay, with that said, what do you do if the televangelist is your local pastor?
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
TEXASGRANDMA,

I just want to share a couple things with you, and then I'm done with the subject because I do not want to argue about this. You posted this.

quote:
Mat 23:23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Notice that this is Jesus’ words and He says “these ought ye to have done.

Did you notice what Jesus said that they tithed?

Mint, anise, and cummin all spices and herbs, do you know why? Because only livestock and crops where tithed. The seeds of the earth and the livestock that lived on the seeds of the earth.

The only time that people turned the tithe into money was when they had a long trip to take to make the offering. Then they could sell their crops or livestock and take the money on their long trip, but when they got where they were going they bought food again for the offering.

The only people that tithed were farmers and shepherds, it was only people that got increase from the earth.

Stone masons didn't tith, and carpenters didn't tith. It was only farmers and shepherds and those that were growing crops.

Here's the scripture that everyone speaks of "Malachi 3:10 (Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse.... The word storehouse comes from the word garner which is like a silo that held grain, not coins.


You said how your tithe helped all of the programs at your church, I don't doubt that one bit, but don't you think that the people that give 20% help too, what about those who give even more than 30% I bet they're helping too just like the people that give 1%, or 5%. It's not your tithe that allows these things to happen, it's the giving heart of the body of Christ each one makes it happen not just the ones that give 10%.

You said before that it don't say in the bible that it's a sin to tithe, and your right. I don't think a person is sinning when they tithe anymore than a person that gives 15%, or 5%, but I think the person that tells them if they don't give 10% that they are robbing God is very much in the wrong.

Before anyone says anything about Abraham tithing his spoils of war to Melchizedek, this was a voluntary giving and only happened once, and it was not from his income it was from war. There's no record in scripture of him ever tithing again.

As I close this post I just want to say to TEXASGRANDMA that I love you and I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to show what the bible teaches about it. As far as giving goes, if you want to tithe then go for it, but don't let a man tell you that if you don't then your robbing God because that's not what the bible is teaching in Malachi 3:10 (Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse....

By this logic, if you gave 20% you wouldn't be tithing either because the tithe is the tenth part.

I love you and do not want to argue with you. I can only share with you what the bible teaches, after that you have to make your own choices.

Your brother in Christ,
Chuck
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Chuck

I am not going to argue with you abou this. I do know there are verses in the Bible that say that a Preacher is worth his hire and not to muzzle the animals from eating.
This said, I do not belive it is a sin to tithe.
If I tithed and I don't have to, God will probably thank me for supporting the Church in His name. Jesus says a cup of water giving in His Name will be rewarded.
If I don't tithe and it is a sin then I will be in trouble.
People want their Pastor to be there for them but they are too cheap to pay their tithes. Do you not leave a tip for the waitress at a resturant?
God gives us our money, should we not at least give Him back a tenth of it? Until I read in the Bible do NOT pay your tithes, then I will feel free to do so.

Rose,
most preachers are not on TV. My Pastor lives in a modest home. He pays tithes, himself. My sister was a Preacher's wife. They did without many times. I am talking about times when they were Pastors at a very poor Church and she did not even have the money for toothpaste. My mom mailed her some (she never even told us but we found our when we were at her house) I know paying your tithes to support the Church is important.

--------------
My Church home provides a place to teach me, guide me, support me spiritually. Hubby and I gladly pay our tithes.

well I am off. Irioncally we got to go to the bank to get some cash, because hubby likes to pay his tithes in cash.
Have a blessed day.
betty
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
quote:
People want their Pastor to be there for them but they are too cheap to pay their tithes. Do you not leave a tip for the waitress at a resturant?
God gives us our money, should we not at least give Him back a tenth of it? Until I read in the Bible do NOT pay your tithes, then I will feel free to do so.

I never said that you shouldn't give 10% if that's what you want to do, I just said that the bible doesn't ask you to give 10% of your money, so If you do it's your choice. If you want to give 50% then that wonderful, or 5% is great too. You give as you are able to give to the Lord.

You act as if I don't think we should give, of course we should give, I do. Some of the people give much more than 10% and some less than 10%. I'm just saying that scripture doesn't teach the tithe that most pastors are preaching.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with helping your pastor, but how much of your tithe do you think goes to landscaping, new carpet, song books, and such? Do you think that's God's will?

I have preached the word in my area for about 4 years now and I will never charge the body of Christ for the word of God. There were a few times at first that I was given an offering after I preached the word of God, but after checking the scriptures I will never again take money for preaching the word of God. I will tell the assembly to give it to those in need in the area, and if I am ever the person in need then I know that the Lord will provide.

Your brother in Christ,
Chuck
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
quote:
Brothers and sisters we need both to support the expansion of God’s Word both monetarily and physically.
adv. christian,

There's a big difference between supporting and tithing. Supporting is from the heart through giving, and the so called tithing of today is taught to be mandatory as law.

There's no doubt that tithing is scriptural because it's found in the scriptures, but not the tithing being taught by pastors today. the tithing taught by pastors today is man made, and is not even recognizable when compared to the tithing of scripture.

We should support the word of God, and the body of Christ through the leading of the Spirit of God, and not be the traditions of man.

I will say this, if you are able to give 10% or even more to the Lord then I say praise the Lord! but don't let man tell you that your robbing God if you don't. Give generously as you are able from your heart. You shared the scriptures in 2 Corinthians chapter 9, so Read 2 Corinthians 9:7 and it will tell you how to give.

Your brother in Christ,
Chuck
 
Posted by Bandit (Member # 3643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TheGreatSouthLand:
We attend a church where our minister is very big on tithing. He quotes Malachi 3:10 (Bring the whole tithe into the house....Test me and see...) My question is this. Do we as New Testement believers need to tithe. When Christ died on the cross he paid for, and abolished all the laws that the Children of Israel were living under. Tithing is one of these. Should we not now be people who GIVE because we want to give, rather than TITHE because we have to. I realise that it is God who supplies all our needs. And it is because of Him that we have food on our tables and clothes on our backs. Shouldn't we give out of love for Him for all that he has done for us. Can we expect people to tithe of they can't put enough food on the table for their families (I've been there) Telling people that they should tithe, and that if they don't they are robbing God is more of a guilt trip thing and a law rather than something that is done out of the heart, no matter how big the offering is.
Anyway. What do others think
Thanks

Sorry to hear about your predicament, GreatSouthLand. The requirement to tithe as a part of the New Covenant is one of the most common false doctrines being promoted in churches today. I am sorry this pastor has so little spiritual insight. Such a use of Malachi shows a real lack of understanding. Look, do yourself a favor, get yourself out from under such ignorant teaching. This guy may be well meaning, but life is too short and too precious to spend listening to someone so spiritually blind. You may not realize this (nor probably does he) but he is leading you back into bondage; he is corrupting the way of Christ! The reason this guy has to go all the way back to Malachi is because the New Testament doesn’t support him! So he snips a bit out of Malachi - quite out of context - and tells you how you must give! What a crock! I have heard this false teaching way too often. Please, do yourself a favor, dump this guy and his church. The real thing (real spiritual truth) is worth fighting for. Remember, by dumping him and his false teaching, you are not dumping Christ, but in reality, you are making and taking a stand for the real Jesus Christ!

Sincerely,
Bandit

P.S. Who knows what other false teachings this guy may be pushing!
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Chuck

We have been going to our Church for three years. There is a rip in the carpet on the stage, but our Pastor said he would rather our money support missionaries then buy new carpet. Our Church supports many missionaries, unwed moms, and the men and women in the Navy.
Our Church here in Washington and in Texas gives everyone a copy of the finaces so that we can see where the money goes. Our Pastor is not rich and our Church is not a mansion. Our Church is a place for hurting people to come for comfort and for Christians to be fed from the Word of God.
Why I think tithes is important is because if we don't give a set amount we find ourselves giving less and less (at least most of us) In September you have school supplies and school clothes so you would be tempted to skip God that month. One month the car tags are due, you skip that month. Soon you only give occassionaly. The Pastor can't be supported with casual givers like that. The lights would soon be turned off with a Church filled with people like that too.
betty
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
Betty,

I would never try to tell you how much to give, I would say give as your able from your heart and if your generous heart says give 10% then do so, but you shouldn't do so because a preacher tells you that that's what the bible teaches because it doesn't.

May the Lord bless you as you seek Him!

Your brother in Christ,
Chuck
 
Posted by TheGreatSouthLand (Member # 6062) on :
 
Look, do yourself a favor, get yourself out from under such ignorant teaching. This guy may be well meaning, but life is too short and too precious to spend listening to someone so spiritually blind.

Bandit:

You have no idea how appealing this idea of going to another church is. Infact, I have nearly packed up my family a couple of times. However, it isn't as easy as this. Where we live, a good christian church isn't hard to find. We currently drive a little over 3/4 hour to this church. The next closest one is a little over an hour away. We have attended this church now for about 4 years. Up untill about 12 months ago it was great, then the previous minister left. Also at the end of the day, and you may find this hard to believe, we really believe as a family that we are called to attend this church. And, at the end of the day we figure that "mnisters come and ministers go" He won't be here for ever.
Thanks anyway for your concern. It is very "challanging" at times.
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
TheGreatSouthLand,

I will be praying for your situation and I pray the Lord will show you what He would have of you.

May the Lord's will be done.

Your brother in Christ,
Chuck
 
Posted by Pio (Member # 6074) on :
 
The way I see the law fulfilled can be shown in this analogy.

If I gave you a car and says in order for this to run right, then you need to put unleaded gas in it. You aknoledge and take the keys. Then instead of unleaded gas, you decide, that since you are the new owner of the car, and live in a free country, you will us kool-aid instead. Is this choice really freedom? When your car stops working are you going to blame God?

The point is this. God TOLD us to give 10% in the Old Testament. Jesus came to fulfill the law now when we are given the choice to follow Jesus, we are given the choice to support God's ministries finacially. We should still give at least 10% of our earning to God. Now I do not believe that it all must go to your congreational church, but the way i do it is 5% to the local Church and the other 5% split among good Christ following charities, such as soup kitchens, schools, ect.
 
Posted by Bandit (Member # 3643) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TheGreatSouthLand:
Bandit:

You have no idea how appealing this idea of going to another church is. Infact, I have nearly packed up my family a couple of times. However, it isn't as easy as this. Where we live, a good christian church isn't hard to find. We currently drive a little over 3/4 hour to this church. The next closest one is a little over an hour away. We have attended this church now for about 4 years. Up untill about 12 months ago it was great, then the previous minister left. Also at the end of the day, and you may find this hard to believe, we really believe as a family that we are called to attend this church. And, at the end of the day we figure that "mnisters come and ministers go" He won't be here for ever.
Thanks anyway for your concern. It is very "challanging" at times.

Hello GreatSouthLand,

All I can do is pray for you and offer my meagerly advice. There are actually a lot of people in similar circumstances.

First, try to make sure that this is really God’s will for your family. I too once felt - and had it latter confirmed - that God wanted me in a particular church. (It is a rather involved story, but I wouldn’t mind sharing it if you wanted to hear it.) But even if it is God’s will for you to be there, it is not His will that false teaching be advanced in His name. Perhaps one of the things God would be calling you to be is a voice of reason and truth. Perhaps this teaching is as revolting to God as it is to me (or perhaps to you). And perhaps God doesn’t want to throw in the towel on this church just because of this one false teaching; perhaps He still wants to work in and through this church (or through some of those in this church). If so, then perhaps He still needs persons like yourself to stand firm in His service. If so, then this is between you and your King. If I were in this situation, I would at least ask Him for some kind of help or confirmation. Is there not another family (or families) which share your views? I do not know the form of church government under which your church operates, but is the pastor the sole voice in your church? Is God Himself silenced by the voice of one man? I think not! As with Elijah in the cave (1 Kings 19), God shows Elijah that he is not alone in his resistance, so stand firm in your faith. Even if none there are with you on this issue, I AM is with you. And it is my prayer that He will provide you with support for whatever He may have called you to do.

But realize that those called to serve the King are often called into battle, so you yourself should not be surprised to be thrown headlong into such a battle, if indeed He has called you for such. I wish I had answers as to why such issues arise in the church. Why cannot pastors simply teach men that they should be guided by the Spirit in all they do - including their giving? Why must some men distort the truth of the freedom of Christ and resort to the “weak and beggarly elements” which bring them again into bondage? [Gal. 4:9] These are questions to which I have no answers, but I know that it is true that God’s truth has always been resisted. You are simply seeing yet another level at which His truth is being resisted. And who knows, perhaps His call for you to remain (if indeed that is His call) is tied to His need to maintain a real and viable presence in the face of this false teaching. Perhaps God needs you there to maintain His own presence there. If so, then perhaps you are on the front lines of a real spiritual battle, much more than you know. I pray that God helps you through these “challenging” times.

And second, have you ever tried to talk with this pastor concerning these things? You know, if this is an issue to you, then it is an issue to God. God would rather this be resolved (and I would say the scriptures are very clear as to who is in the right on this one). I too had a similar situation about 20 years ago. I did attempt to discuss this with the pastor - but he was closed minded and would not discuss it. In his eyes it was his way or the hi-way. (An American expression for shut up or leave.) So I left that church. I vowed then and there to never submit to such teaching. And it was during that meeting that I felt that God was opening my eyes to see that this pastor was more devoted to what his denomination demanded than what Christ demanded! So this man, this “pastor”, was really more a servant of his denomination than a true servant of the Lord Jesus Christ! So my opinion of this man was very greatly diminished after this one meeting. It is my belief that this pastor of yours needs to be likewise confronted. This false teaching needs to be dealt with. He needs to be told that there are those who strongly disagree with his message. He needs to be told that he has strayed from the freedom of Christ. I believe this is a spiritual battle, and you are right in the middle of it!

Sincerely,
Bandit
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I agree with you Bandit. TheGreatSouthLand:I believe that bandit has given you some excellent advice, and I think that often God allows us to see these kinds of things that we can rightly pray for our pastors and also confront them when necesssary.

Aside from that I have a couple of comments. ADV Christian, I am in no way speaking against the supporting of the going forth of God's word or justifying not giving.

There are far too many church buildings where people tithe faithfully and inside them sitting on pews are the CHURCH who sits in need and lack... members of the body of Christ losing their homes because of a loss of job or health... widows with limited incomes who cant buy medicine or heat their homes... or worse whose only source of income is the government and no one knows and the church is not taking care of those things, but the "programs" go on and the building gets new carpet and chairs and paint. This is not the way of GOD!!!

The scriptures that I believe it was David used... talking about Melchizedek are an excellent example of what the Church should see about tithing.. what did Abraham tithe? He tithed to the King of Jerusalem from those things that belonged to the King of Sodom. The king of Sodom had been spoiled by the kings of the world and Abraham went out and brought back, both his lost brother..."Just Lot" and he also brought back the people and goods that were the King of Sodom's, and before the King of Sodom got back the people and their goods that were his, Abraham took 10% tithe of all of it and gave it to the King of Jerusalem. I just ask you to meditiate on that a bit... there is something huge to see there.

As far as our giving to support the going forth of the word, and the care of the body of Christ, we should give... not 10% but all that we can give cheerfully above our own needs. Jesus said to the rich man sell ALL you have and follow me. This calls us to look at what we have... do we have more than we need? If we do, we have it because it has been given to us to distribute to someone who needs it. We do not have the right to keep 90% and give ten percent thinking we have done our duty. We should be living as frugally as we can so that we can give more to those who are living as frugally as they can and do not have enough! There should be no lack in the Body of Christ and there is much lack in the body of Christ because we do not understand the priciples of tithe and stewardship and Kingdom economics. God has given us the power to get wealth that HE may establish his covenant. He did not covenant with a building, but with people. We spend far too much on the support of programs and buildings and far to little on the needs of the body of Christ that meets in them. And we can talk about evangelism too because the facts are that less than 1/10th of 1% of the money that the Church spends worldwide to evangelize is spent on evangelizing in the part of the world where 90% of the least unevangelized live.

There are church bodies gathering in this world without Bibles... sharing pieces of scripture torn out of bibles so that everyone can have something.. how many Bibles in our homes? How much did we spend this month on reading material for entertainment? I am as guilty as any, I just drank a latte that would have bought 4 Bibles for someone in Asia. Should I feel justified because I gave my 10% this month? I dont. Truth is I feel convicted and ashamed. I used to drink a latte every day. Today I drink one once a week. Maybe today, I will drink one once a month so that I can send a case of Bibles to Asia next month eh?
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
helpforhomeschoolers,

All I can say to that is Amen! You could not have said it better. I was blessed and convicted by the Truth as I read your post.

quote:
There are far too many church buildings where people tithe faithfully and inside them sitting on pews are the CHURCH who sits in need and lack... members of the body of Christ losing their homes because of a loss of job or health... widows with limited incomes who cant buy medicine or heat their homes... or worse whose only source of income is the government and no one knows and the church is not taking care of those things, but the "programs" go on and the building gets new carpet and chairs and paint. This is not the way of GOD!!!
Amen!!! Most don't even know what the tithe was for, how it was used, or even what was to be tithed

All I can say is that your post was powerful!

Your brother in Christ,
Chuck
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Thank You
For Giving to The Lord
(Words and Music by Ray Boltz)

I dreamed I went to heaven
and You were there with me
We walked upon the streets of gold
Beside the crystal sea.

We heard the angels singing
Then someone called your name.
You turned and saw this young man
And he was smiling as he came.

And he said, "Friend you may not know me now"
And then he said, "But wait"
You used to teach my Sunday School
When I was only eight.

And every week you would say a prayer
Before the class would start.
And one day when you said that prayer
I asked Jesus in my heart."

(Chorus)
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am a life that was changed.
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am so glad you gave.

Then another man stood before you
And said, "Remember the time
A missionary came to your church
And his pictures made you cry.

You didn't have much money
But you gave it anyway.
Jesus took the gift you gave
And that's why I am here today."

(Chorus)
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am a life that was changed.
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am so glad you gave.

One by one they came
Far as the eye could see
Each life somehow touched
By your generosity.

Little things that you had done
Sacrifices made.
Unnoticed on the earth
In heaven now proclaimed.

And I know up in heaven
You're not supposed to cry.
But I am almost sure
There were tears in your eyes.

As Jesus took your hand
And you stood before the Lord.
He said, "My child look around you.
Great is your reward."

(Chorus twice)
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am a life that was changed.
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am so glad you gave.

Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am a life that was changed.
Thank you for giving to the Lord
I am so glad you gave.

© Copyright 1988 Gather Music/ASCAP All rights reserved. International copyright secured. Used by permission
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
I really like that song, but what does it have to do with tithing?
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Because Churches cannot support missionaries without Church people tithing. I was thinking about this over the weekend. I would hate to be in anyone shoes that is encouraging people that paying tithes is not Biblical and they turn out to be wrong. I do believe that God will hold these people accountable for leading people to steal from God.
I think to tell someone it is not required of a Christian to pay tithes is walking a very dangerous path
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
I love that song too. Betty: Understanding that tithing is not scriptural for the NT church, is NOT synonimous with NOT Giving! Quite the contrary. I assure you that there are churches that do not teach tithing that support missionaries and much more.
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
how do Churches support missionares without members who tithe? Do you worry that God will hold you accountable for teaching against tithing?
What if you are wrong?
betty
 
Posted by TheGreatSouthLand (Member # 6062) on :
 
[QUOTE] Do you worry that God will hold you accountable for teaching against tithing?
What if you are wrong?
QUOTE]

What if you are wrong ( and those that teach tithing )

Believe it or not, our family went through a stage where we felt that it was right FOR US to tithe. We now don't believe that it is right FOR US at this time. I personally believe that giving/tithing/gifts/love offerings, call it what you like is a personal thing. I guess the thing that really gets under my skin is when a minister says (like ours) that God will withhold his blessings if we don't tithe. Jesus fulfilled the law to the last letter. To tell people for what ever reason that they need to tithe is again entering LAW.

The scriptures tell me that God allows the rain to fall on both the righteous and unrighteous. Gods blessings are not dependent, I believe, on what my financial giving is. God is a good God who wants to give His children blessings each and every day.

This discussion heas certainly given this family heaps to think about. I guess at the end of the day I don't want to be under law. I want to be free. Jesus set me free and I intend to live in it.
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
http://www.ucg.org/booklets/AT/
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
Betty,

Please show me one verse of scripture that shows the tithe being used to pay a pastor, or send out missionaries, because unless they were paid in sheep/grain or produce it never happened.

What today's church calls the tithe is not found in the bible.

The word tithe is found in the bible, but how it's carried out today is not in the bible.

The only thing about the tithe of today that's the same as the tithe of the bible is the name.


The link above that you provided about tithing is to a church that

(1. keeps the sabbath- Do you keep the sabbath?

(2. Thay also keep all of the jewish festivals/Holy days- Do you keep these festivals?

(3. They do not eat pork- Do you eat pork?

The list goes on and on.
 
Posted by HE LIVES (Member # 4931) on :
 
Betty,

You asked this question.

"Do you worry that God will hold you accountable for teaching against tithing"

Answer: If the tithing that was being taught today was found in the bible I would be all for it, but it's not.

Giving generously is found in the scriptures, and can be supported, so that's what I will follow.

In Love,
Chuck
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Linda,

The Bible calls for the family first to take care of widows.


1Ti 5:16If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed
1Ti 5:17¶Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine1Ti 5:18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Also the Bible makes it clear that Pastors are to be paid.
I wish you could see our parking lot and you would see our tithes and offerings are not going to beautify the building but instead is going for the ministry of God.

ByHeLives,

The Bible makes it clear that we are to bring the first fruits. We are not farmers and the fruit of our labor is money and not grains. Obviously everyone is not going to believe in tithing but I believe those who do not, have more to lose then me. We tithed not out of obligations but out of love for God. But, if it turns out that God does require tithes of income, than those who preach against tithing will face God’s wrath. If I am wrong I am still not in trouble, because Jesus said even a cup of water given in His Name will be blessed. Individual families cannot support missionaries, unwed mothers, and solders by themselves, but when we bring our tithes to God’s house, the money can be put together with other faithful members and the Work of God can be accomplished.
Well I believe it should be everyone’s personal decision on whether to tithe our not, I caution, in love, for anyone to be leery of discouraging anyone from tithing. I think to do so is walking on dangerous ground.
Betty


P.S. It is kind of funning because at the top of this page on this site was an ad for tithing envelopes.
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Hi Betty: I thought your question do you worry was directed at me. I will answer.

I am not worried because what I teach about tithing is consitent with the scripture. The Levitical Law required the payment of Tithes for the Levites;
for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and for the poor of the land.

There is today for the NT church, no Levitical Priesthood; No temple; and we do not live as a nation in our own land where the poor of our people can reap the edges of our fields.

I teach that the Body of Christ is to care for the needs of the Body of Christ and that today the church is in error because we do not do this. There should be no lack among the Body of Christ because we should be meeting the needs of the poor within the church and we should be giving to the sending out from our local congregations those who spread the word, but it is not a tithe.

Under the Levitical Law the tithe was to be separated out and given to God and GOD allowed the people to keep the 90%. I am saying that Jesus said sell all that you have and follow me. I am saying that if I have more than I need then it is for those in the body that have less than they need. I am saying that if I go into church and drop $200.00 in the offering plate and there is sitting on the pew beside me a widdow with bald tires on her car and winter is coming and I knowing this do nothing thinking to myself, well I just tithed my 10%, then I am sorely in error.

1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?


This is what the apostolic church did...

Ac 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

There is no where in the NT that teaches tithing. There is much in the NT that teaches the church is to care for the needs of the church which is a body and not a building.

There is no where in the NT that teaches that the pastors of local congregations are to live as the Levites did and be separated from the laity in such a way that they have nothing except what the laity provides. PAUL worked.. he made tents. Yes he received gifts, but not because of his need, but because he wanted the givers to share in the fruit that he wrought....

Php 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

The giving of the NT church is out of love and not out of service to the Law.

People say well Abraham tithed. Tis true, but the tithe that Abraham gave was of what belonged to the King of Sodom, and Abraham went out and got it and brought it back and while on the journey his men used what they needed from it and when they returned Abraham took 10% of the souls and their goods that belonged to the King of Sodom and gave them to GOD. 10% of the SOULS and their GOODs and gave them to GOD(Melchizdek) (The King of Jerusalem). That is what Abraham tithed!

This is scriptural and I walk in faith and not fear.
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
Linda,

If you are at peace with this, then I have done all I can to help you. When we see Jesus face to face then we will both know the truth.
betty [hug]
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Betty: I love you. You are a great sister and know that you ask that question of me in love and I appreciate it. I pray that you will always call me into check when you think I am in error. I wont always agree with you, but I will always check what you say and consider it prayerfully. Iron sharpens Iron.

I used to believe the popular teaching of tithing that is taught in most churches today even to include that Malachi applies in this topic to the NT church. Then a brother said something to me that I could not let go of and so I began to study and to pray about this and I have posted here what I believe God did show me through HIS spirit.

I love you Betty and I thank you for being the sister that you are to me even when we disagree. [hug]
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
The verse that most sums up the New Testament teaching on giving is:

2 Cor 9:7 Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

This is a good one-verse answer to give to the tithing legalists spreading their leaven among us nowadays.

2 Cor 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

The verse is clear enough. Each one must give what the Holy Spirit has led him/her to in each and every situation with two conditions: never grudgingly, and never under manipulation (compulsion).

It is impossible to imagine how legalistic adherence to the Old Testament tithe (and that woefully misunderstand!) could be compatible with this instruction.

Christians in general reject the idea that we are "under the law", yet tithing somehow gets exempted. But it is all or nothing, when it comes to the law, is it not?

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says?
So clearly, to embrace old covenant tithing is a dangerous thing indeed, however popular.

What the scriptures teach about money


Luke 16:13 "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

Mat 6:19-21 "Do not save riches for yourselves here on earth, where moths and rust destroy, and robbers break in and steal. Instead, save riches for yourselves in heaven, where moths and rust cannot destroy, and robbers cannot break in and steal. For your heart will always be where your riches are."

• It is easy enough to "explain away" one or two verses to come to the conclusion we want. But what you are about to read is more than one or two verses: Scriptural teaching about money is clear, consistent, and radical.

All is required, and the flesh must die to obey.

Be Content With Your Needs Being Met. Beware Of Materialism

Heb 13:5 "Keep your life free from the love of money, and be content with what you have."

Ps 37:7,16 Rest in the Lord and wait patiently for Him; Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way... Better is the little of the righteous than the abundance of many wicked.

Prov 23:4-5 Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint. Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle.

The Test of Riches and The Test of Poverty

1 Sam 2:7 The Lord sends poverty and wealth; he humbles and he exalts.

Prov 30:8-9...Give me neither poverty nor riches, but give me only my daily bread. Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you and say, "Who is the Lord?" Or I may become poor and steal, and so dishonor the name of my God.

Phil 4:11-13...For I have learned to be content, whatever the circumstances may be. I know now how to live when things are difficult and I know how to live when things are prosperous. In general and in particular I have learned the secret of eating well or going hungry--of facing either plenty of poverty. I am ready for anything through the strength of the One who lives within me.

Phil 4:12 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.

Phil 4:12-13 I know how to be poor and I know how to be rich too. I have been through my initiation and now I am ready for anything anywhere: full stomach or empty stomach, poverty or plenty. There is nothing I cannot master with the help of the One who gives me strength.
Will We Follow if Jesus Asks Us to Enter Poverty For a Season?

Mark 10:21-27,31 Jesus looked steadily at him and loved him, and he said, "There is one thing you lack. Go and sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." But his face fell at these words and he went away sad, for he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!" The disciples were astounded by these words, but Jesus insisted, "My children," he said to them, "how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." They were more astonished than ever. "In that case," they said to one another, "who can be saved?" Jesus gazed at them. "For men," he said, "it is impossible, but not for God: because everything is possible for God... Many who are first will be last, and the last first."

Acts 2:44-45 All the believers joined together and shared everything in common; they sold their possessions and goods and divided the proceeds among the fellowship according to individual need.

Acts 4:32,34-35 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had... There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

• God is calling all of us to let go of our possessions. We may even get to use them in the future if we "loosen our grip". If we do not do this willingly ourselves, God will. It is a sure sign that we are sons. We should thank the Lord when He wrenches a dangerous thing from our hands. Maybe we could even cooperate a little! If we don't, moths, rust, and thieves will do their job.

Luke 14:33 "Only the man who says goodbye to all his possessions can be my disciple."

Luke 14:33 Concluded Jesus, "none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up everything he has."

Luke 14:33 "Whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."

Luke 3:11 John answered, "The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same."

Luke 6:30 "Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you."

Jesus Gives Investment Advice...

Luke 16:9-11 "Now my advice to you is to use 'money', tainted as it is, to make yourselves friends, so that when it comes to an end, they may welcome you into the houses of eternity. The man who is faithful in the little things will be faithful in the big things. So that if you are not fit to be trusted to deal with the wicked wealth of this world, who will trust you with true riches?"


Luke 16:9-12 "I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings... If you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?"

Luke 14:12-14 "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."

Luke 12:33 "Sell your possessions and give to the poor... "

He Who Dies With The Most Toys... Loses!

Luke 12:15-21..."Be on your guard against covetousness in any shape or form. For a man's real life in no way depends upon the number of his possessions... A rich man's farmland produced heavy crops. So he said to himself, 'What shall I do, for I have no room to store this harvest of mine?' Then he said, 'I know what I'll do. I'll pull down my barns and build bigger ones where I can store all my grain and my goods and I can say to my soul, Soul, you have plenty of good things stored up there for years to come. Relax! Eat, drink, and have a good time!' But God said to him, 'You fool, this very night you will be asked for YOUR SOUL!...' That is what happens to the man who hoards things for himself and is not rich in the eyes of God."

Luke 16:19-31 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus... The beggar died and angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died... In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up... 'I am in agony in this fire.' But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony...' 'Then I beg you... I have five brothers... warn them so that they will not come to this place of torment.' 'They have Moses and the Prophets, let them listen to them.'"

Ps 49:16-19 Do not be overawed when a man grows rich, when the splendor of his house increases; for he will take nothing with him when he dies, his splendor will not descend with him. Though while he lived he counted himself blessed--and men praise you when you prosper--he will join the generation of his fathers, who will never see the light of life.

Ecc 5:10-15 Whoever loves money never has enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless. As goods increase, so do those who consume them. And what benefit are they to the owner except to feast his eyes on them? The sleep of a laborer is sweet, whether he eats little or much, but the abundance of a rich man permits him no sleep. I have seen a grievous evil under the sun: wealth hoarded to the harm of its owner, or wealth lost through some misfortune... Naked a man comes from his mothers womb, and as he comes, so he departs...

Prov 11:4,28 Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death... Whoever trusts in his riches will fall...

Money as An Insulation From God

• Christians hope in eternal security, and God would have us give up "carnal security" to get it. The flesh wants the security of money. It wants to be in control, to be master, to "be god". So we dream of and cling to money because we don't want to be totally dependent on God...

Job 31:24-25,28 [Job:] "If I have put my trust in gold or said to pure gold, 'You are my security,' if I have rejoiced over my great wealth, the fortune my hands had gained... then these also would be sins to be judged, for I would have been unfaithful to God on high."

Eze 28:2-10..."Thus says the Lord God, 'Because your heart is lifted up and you have said, 'I am a God...' yet you are a man and not God, although you make your heart like the heart of God... You have acquired riches for yourself... and your heart is lifted up because of your riches--Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you... and they will draw their swords... and defile your splendor... and you will die... Will you still say, 'I am a god,' in the presence of your slayer, although you are a man and not God, in the hands of those who wound you?'"

What in the World is Wrong With The Televangelists?

1 Thes 2:5...Never at any time have our speeches been simply flattery or a cover for trying to get money.

2 Cor 2:17 At least we do not go hawking the word of God about, as so many do...

2 Cor 2:17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit.

2 Cor 2:17 We are not like those hucksters--and there are many of them--whose idea in getting out the Gospel is to make a good living out of it.

1 Tim 6:5...among men of warped minds who have lost their real hold on the truth but hope to make some profit out of the Christian religion.

1 Tim 6:5...They think religion is a way to become rich.

1 Tim 6:5-9...men, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.

1 Tim 6:10-12 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.

The Nobility of Poverty?

James 1:9-11 It is right for the poor brother to be proud of his high rank, and the rich one to be thankful that he has been humbled, because riches last no longer than the flowers in the grass; the scorching sun comes up, and the grass withers, the flower falls; what looked so beautiful now disappears. It is the same with the rich man: his business goes on; he himself perishes.

James 1:9-11 The brother who is in need may be proud because God has raised him to the true riches. The rich may be proud that God has shown him his spiritual poverty... Just as surely will the rich man and his ways fall into the blight of decay.

The Risks Of Wealth...

Mark 4:18-19 "Then there are the seeds which were sown among the thorn bushes. These are the people who hear the message, but the worries of this world and the false glamour of riches and all sorts of other ambitions creep in and choke the life out of what they have heard, and it produces no crop in their lives."

Luke 8:14 "And the seed sown among the thorns represents the people who hear the message and go on their way, and with the worries and riches and pleasures of living, the life is choked out of them, and in the end they produce nothing."

Luke 9:25 "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet lose or forfeit his very self?"
The Prosperity "Fat Cats" Bite The Dust...

• Many of us have been fervently praying that God would turn the church upside down and vigorously shake it (Heb 12:25-29). When this happens, those who love money and have lost their grip on the truth will be the first to fall.

1 Cor 4:8-21 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings--and that without us! How I wish you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you!.. We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless... Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world. I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children... I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with punishment, or in love and with a gentle spirit?

James 5:1-3,5And now, you rich people [see James 2:2-7], listen to me! Weep and wail over the miseries that are coming upon you! Your riches have rotted away, and your clothes have been eaten by moths. Your gold and silver are covered with rust, and this rust will be a witness against you, and eat up your flesh like fire. You have piled up riches in these last days... Your life here on earth has been full of luxury and pleasure. You have made yourselves fat for the day of slaughter.

Jer 5:27-29..."They have become rich and powerful and have grown fat and sleek... they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor. Should I not punish them for this?" declares the Lord.

Advice on Security Investing

1 Tim 6:17-19 Tell those who are rich in this present world not to be contemptuous of others, and not to rest the weight of their confidence on the transitory power of wealth but on the living God, who generously gives us everything for our enjoyment. Tell them to do good, to be rich in kindly actions, to be ready to give to others and to sympathize with those in distress. Their security should be invested in the life to come, so that they may be sure of holding a share in the life which is real and permanent.

Luke 12:29-34 "You must not set your heart on what you eat or drink, nor must you live in a state of anxiety. The whole heathen world is busy about getting food and drink, and your Father knows well enough that you need such things. No, set your heart on his kingdom, and your food and drink will come as a matter of course... Sell your possessions and give the money away to those in need. Get yourselves purses that never grow old, inexhaustible treasure in Heaven, where no thief can ever reach it, or moth destroy it. For where your treasure is, you may be certain that your heart will be there too!"

1 Tim 6:8-10 Surely then, as far as physical things are concerned, it is sufficient for us to keep our bodies fed and clothed. For men who set their hearts on being wealthy expose themselves to temptation. They fall into a trap and lay themselves open to all sorts of silly and wicked desires, which are quite capable of utterly ruining and destroying their souls. For loving money leads to all kinds of evil, and some men in the struggle to be rich have lost their faith and caused themselves untold agonies of mind.

Jer 9:23-24 Thus says the Lord, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom... let not a rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this, that he understands and knows Me... "

Now You Know...

1 Jn 3:16-18 We know what love is because Christ laid down his life for us. We must in turn lay down our lives for our brothers. But as for the well-to-do man who sees his brother in want but shuts his heart against him, how could anyone believe that the love of God lives in him? My Children, let us love not merely in theory or in words--let us love in sincerity and in practice! (2 Cor 8:9)

Luke 12:47-48 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

Prov 28:20 The faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished.

Rev 3:17-19 "While you say, 'I am rich, I have prospered, and there is nothing that I need,' you have no eyes to see that you are wretched, pitiable, poverty-stricken, blind and naked. My advice to you is to buy from me that gold which is refined in the furnace so that you may be rich, and white garments to wear so that you may hide the shame of your nakedness, and salve to put on your eyes to make you see. All those whom I love I correct and discipline. Therefore, shake off your complacency and repent."
 
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I don't pay my tithes to tv preachers but to my local Church body. I don't know anybody who can give 100 percent of their income. We are on a fixed income. As I have said before we live in a smaller apartment and not where we want to live so that we can pay our tithes. I don't have any regret for that. I gladly suffer the smaller place in order to a part of the ministry for the Lord Jesus.
I guess we will leave everyone to their own hearts and their own discerment. I would never try to make a person pay their tithes but neither would I try to discourage someone from doing what they feel God has told them to do. I do know when we don't pay our tithes God punishes us. Maybe others can be blessed and not pay their tithes, but not us. We tried that. last year hubby did not pay his tithes for 3 months and we ran our of money every month before pay day. When we pay our tithes we don't have that problem.
God bless you,
betty
 
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Hey Betty, [wave3]

I think you might have misunderstood me.

It is not about % money you give, it is about % of you personal you give.

Yahweh doesn’t want a part of anything we have, He want to know He possesses of us.

Yahweh wants to know we are not holding back.

And because He knows our heart, He knows what you are willing to give up.

But as the tithe issue goes, is it required of us to give a tenth part every month, tenth part a year or some other measure of a tenth portion of what Yahweh has blessed us with….

You really have to be careful.

If you are going to say it is required to pay a tithe,

Then you are going to have to say we must keep the Sabbath ….can you see the point.

The thing is if you love Yahweh, you will give ( the amount is up to you) only Yahweh is able to determine the quality of the amount. Only Yahweh can determine if you are giving with a joyful heart or if you grudgingly are giving. Only Yahweh knows if He has all you are.

The thing is HE will not take part of you, it is all are nothing, He knows in reality what you are willing to give and in truth so does every individual in reality.

Here a thought …

Marriage is not each partner giving 50 /50

But marriage is both partners giving all 100 % / 100 % to the relationship

Yahweh has given all to have us

Doesn’t the scripture say …

"Only the man who says goodbye to all his possessions can be my disciple." Luke 14:33
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
You are on a roll today Dale. Absolutely beautiful post! Exactly! Amen to it all!
 
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on :
 
Amen, Dale!

*Linda, can you empty some messages in your pm mailbox, please, it's full and I can't send you anything. hmmm [Frown] *
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Sorry, it is emptied now.
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by HE LIVES:
quote:
People want their Pastor to be there for them but they are too cheap to pay their tithes. Do you not leave a tip for the waitress at a resturant?
God gives us our money, should we not at least give Him back a tenth of it? Until I read in the Bible do NOT pay your tithes, then I will feel free to do so.

I never said that you shouldn't give 10% if that's what you want to do, I just said that the bible doesn't ask you to give 10% of your money, so If you do it's your choice. If you want to give 50% then that wonderful, or 5% is great too. You give as you are able to give to the Lord.

You act as if I don't think we should give, of course we should give, I do. Some of the people give much more than 10% and some less than 10%. I'm just saying that scripture doesn't teach the tithe that most pastors are preaching.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with helping your pastor, but how much of your tithe do you think goes to landscaping, new carpet, song books, and such? Do you think that's God's will?

I have preached the word in my area for about 4 years now and I will never charge the body of Christ for the word of God. There were a few times at first that I was given an offering after I preached the word of God, but after checking the scriptures I will never again take money for preaching the word of God. I will tell the assembly to give it to those in need in the area, and if I am ever the person in need then I know that the Lord will provide.

Your brother in Christ,
Chuck

Amen! God bless you brother.
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Chuck

We have been going to our Church for three years. There is a rip in the carpet on the stage, but our Pastor said he would rather our money support missionaries then buy new carpet. Our Church supports many missionaries, unwed moms, and the men and women in the Navy.
Our Church here in Washington and in Texas gives everyone a copy of the finaces so that we can see where the money goes. Our Pastor is not rich and our Church is not a mansion. Our Church is a place for hurting people to come for comfort and for Christians to be fed from the Word of God.
Why I think tithes is important is because if we don't give a set amount we find ourselves giving less and less (at least most of us) In September you have school supplies and school clothes so you would be tempted to skip God that month. One month the car tags are due, you skip that month. Soon you only give occassionaly. The Pastor can't be supported with casual givers like that. The lights would soon be turned off with a Church filled with people like that too.
betty

Betty,

God does not need your money or anyone else’s. What happens does not depend on us. God has it under control. True born again believers don't have to be MADE to tithe. God will put it on your heart to where He wants you to give and help. It is not up to a pastor to force and pressure people to give them money. If your church is doing what God wants, then He will see it gets the necessary supplies. If God is putting it on your heart to support this church, then by all means do so. But if you are giving because the pastor pressures you to from the pulpit, then you are not doing it because God has placed it on your heart, but because this pastor has his on agenda. Also don’t every think that God will not get what He wants done because you don’t do it. He WILL find someone to do it and it will get done. But you will miss out on the blessing of doing what God wants YOU to do.

Also if you are giving to any ministry and you are in dept, credit cards, etc.... then you are giving money that belongs to someone else and I sure don't think God would be please with that, especially if the pastor is pressuring someone to do so. It is not even yours to give it you are in dept.
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Because Churches cannot support missionaries without Church people tithing. I was thinking about this over the weekend. I would hate to be in anyone shoes that is encouraging people that paying tithes is not Biblical and they turn out to be wrong. I do believe that God will hold these people accountable for leading people to steal from God.
I think to tell someone it is not required of a Christian to pay tithes is walking a very dangerous path

Also I would hate to be in a Pastor's shoes who forces the tithe on people and they go in dept to give it and then the pastor turns around and spends $9500 out of a $10000 offering on the building, and salaries and then if they don't need it for something else give the other $500 to missionaries. Most don't even give that much. Most missionaries have to get out and beg for money. It is sad indeed when the basketball courts, Wednesday night suppers and such are more important then the missionaries, widows and orphans.

I am sure, or I hope, there is some churches that actually give more, but I have not seen any. They are to concerned about the building plan when other brothers and sisters in Christ go in need so they can sit on their plush cushions and are entertained every Sunday.

Yes, this really bothers me and it also bothers me that so many people are BLIND to this. It is SO, SO SAD.
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
how do Churches support missionares without members who tithe? Do you worry that God will hold you accountable for teaching against tithing?
What if you are wrong?
betty

No, because true born-again believer will give more then %10, they will give it all. God don't need peoples money to bless people, He just wants to bless the born-again believers by letting them help. God will get it done and He does not depend on how much money He can get from people as He is in control of ALL. If you are truely born-again you will not have to set down and figure out %10, you will give all you can all the time. But I don't mean to some preacher that is scaming you, I mean to actually help out other brothers and sisters in Christ who need help. By helping to reach the lost who are not in your building. Giving of your time, etc.... God is not dependant on US, but we are dependant on HIM.

If you have it give it to God, not building projects. Actually get out and help someone in need. See that it gets done NOW. Not offer it is to late. Buy a house and let people in need live in it for free until they are on their feet. Get involve and just do it. You don't have to give all your money to someone that spends it on themselves, actually give it to God. Give someone some food in Jesus name and don't expent anything in return. It will bless your socks off.

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house,... - Malachi 3:10

Yes so it can be giving to other people, not so you can hord it for yourself.
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:

P.S. It is kind of funning because at the top of this page on this site was an ad for tithing envelopes.

Once again I can not control all the ads that show on this message board. These ads come from google. So please don't start trying to make this message board look bad because of some ad that shows. One thing you don't see is anyone begging for your money and saying this message board can't go on if you don't give us all YOUR money and saying it will close if YOU don't give. It will stay up as long as God wants it up.
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
1Ti 5:17¶Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine1Ti 5:18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.

Also the Bible makes it clear that Pastors are to be paid.

1 Timothy 5:17

Yet here's the point. Timothy had to be told what an elder is. Whether for his sake or for the church's sake. Therefore, elderhood, eldership, what an elder is, was not something that was a big, huge deal. This is consistent with the whole tenor of Paul's letters, as we have seen.

Then, later in the letter, in 1 Timothy 5:17, Paul mentions something interesting. Now brothers, do you remember when Paul was with the elders of Ephesus at Miletus and he said, "I worked with my own hands. I took nothing from the church. You follow my example. Jesus Christ said it is better to give than to receive. So you elders give and do not receive"? Do you remember that? Brothers, Paul is not contradicting himself here.

Paul is telling Timothy, "Let the older men, the elders, who guard well be given double honor." The word for "guard" (poorly translated "rule" in some translations) is the Greek word proistemi. And it means to guard or care for. It doesn't mean to rule. It doesn't mean to control. It means to guard and protect. Paul writes, "The elders who guard well and minister a lot are to be given double honor."

Now, listen to me brothers. Paul told the churches, "Honor one another" (see Romans 14). All the brothers and sisters are to honor one another. He also told the Ephesian church, "Submit one to another." Christians are to honor one another. And submit to one another.

But the brothers who serve the most, those who give of their lives the most, they are worthy of double honor. Paul is telling Timothy, "Make sure the saints appreciate these brothers who labor extra for the church's well-being. Especially those who minister a lot in the meetings. Not who do all the ministry in the meetings. No! But those who teach more than others. They deserve greater respect."

Paul goes on to establish his point by saying: "Do you remember the Scripture that says that an ox is worthy of food? The ox that works is worthy of food. And also, an employee who works is worthy to be paid." Now, follow me brothers. An ox that works deserves food. An employee, a factory worker, deserves to be compensated with money for his hard labor. In the same way, the elders who serve well, who give to the sheep of their lives, are worthy not of food or money, but of greater respect. Double honor.

Paul did not say they are worthy of a salary! He did not say they are worthy of a free meal ticket! He said they are worthy of honor. The Greek words for financial wages (misthos and opsonion) are not used here. The word that is used is time, and it means respect. It means honor. This is confirmed in 1 Timothy 5:19, where Paul says that the elders should not be dishonored by accepting an accusation against them by only one person. An accusation against an elder, because he is to be honored, should be by two or three actual witnesses. Why? Because he is worthy of double honor. Not a salary! But double honor.

Remember, it was to the elders in Ephesus, these same men, that Paul said about five years earlier, "I've worked with my hands. I've taken nothing from the church. I have only given to the church. Follow my example!"

http://www.etpv.org/2002/ste1.html
 
Posted by Brucea (Member # 6092) on :
 
I have read the many threads in regards to tithing. One thing that has not been stated is the earlier vers in Malichi 3:7 Yet from the days of your fathers You have gone away from My ordinances And have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you," Says the LORD of hosts. "But you said, 'In what way shall we return?'
They had departed from the ordinances of the law!

Now let me give you another verse. Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

Jesus has abolished the ordinances that was against us. To impose the law is to say the sacrifice of Jesus is not enough. Jesus fulfilled the the law completely. I noticed that many quoted the law will not pass away. That is not correct. It says it will not pass away untill all is fulfilled. Jesus did the fulfilling of it 100% We must live by the covenant in which we have been birthed. It is not the law! John 1:17 The law came through Moses, but Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. If we impose the law we are imposing giving sin strength in the believer. 1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
The more you preach the law to get believers to give the more you move them away from the covenant of Grace.
 
Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
quote:
However, the tithe is not scriptural for the NT church because the tithe was for the Levite Presithood, which no longer exists. It was changed. We are the preisthood.
This is a severely misguided statment.
Malachi 3:6 begins by saying, "I the Lord do not change."
This section is also concerning the nation and specifically the decendants of Jacob, and not just the Levitical priesthood.
Furtheremore, our Lord Himself is recorded as saying in Luke 11:42:
"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kind of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone."


It is clear that we are still to faithfully tithe to what measure God has blessed us with...and His stated promises concerning this act of faithfulness is still as certain as any promise in the Bible because God loves a cheerful giver. But if you are going to give reluctantly because you feel you have to, then you might as well keep it in your wallet, because tithing is about one's thankfulness and faithfulness to the One who provides all of our needs.
Truly, where your treasure is, there your heart will also be. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

1 Corinthians 16:1-3
Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.


David, Jesus had already risen from the dead when this was written, and Linda, this clearly shows New Testament church tithing.

Blessings to all,

Tracy
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Hi Tracy:

quote:


quote:
:by Linda: However, the tithe is not scriptural for the NT church because the tithe was for the Levite Presithood, which no longer exists. It was changed. We are the preisthood.
This is a severely misguided statment.

Malachi 3:6 begins by saying, "I the Lord do not change."

This section is also concerning the nation and specifically the decendants of Jacob, and not just the Levitical priesthood.

All scripture is FOR us... profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness,but all scripture is not TO us:

Malachi is written TO Israel: The Church/Bride is not Israel.


1 ¶ The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.

(We are the gentiles... the incense our prayers and the pure offering our bodies given as LIVING Sacrifice.)

Malachi 1:13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

(We do not sacrifice animals...we sacrifce our bodies daily as living sacrifice)

Malachi 2:1 ¶ And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

(We are not the Priests of Malichi 2.. we could not have corrupted the covenant of Levi.. We are not Levi. God does not curse or spread dung on the face of the Body of Christ.)

Malachi 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

(Is this above the way the Bride of Christ shall meet the Lord at HIS return?)

Malachi 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

(Then... then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant to the LORD. This does not speak to the church. The offering of the Bride of Christ is the offering of our bodies NOW as living sacrifices and they are pleasant to the LORD now, for they are not corrupt, but preserved blamesless unto the coming of CHrist.)

Malachi 3:7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.


(The Bride of Christ has not strayed from any ordinance to pay tithe or offerings from the days of our fathers. We are not a whole nation cursed with a curse. The only curse we were ever under was the curse of the Law that said that those who dont keep the Law are cursed but as Gentiles the Law was not given to us to keep and CHRIST has redeemed us from that curse!!!!)

If you want to claim Malachi 3 regarding the tithe for the church, then you have to claim all of Malichi speaks to the church. Does this speak to the church???

4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

I am sorry; If I am wrong about this, then I pray that the Spirit rebuke, me, but Tracy I cannot see that this is to the church and I cannot see that the tithe is for the NT church. Not from Malachi. You cannot pull two lines totally out of context and create a doctrine of it for the church.

quote:

Furtheremore, our Lord Himself is recorded as saying in Luke 11:42:
"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kind of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone."

Again Jesus speaks to the Pharisee who were under law. Tithe is LAW. Tithe was part of Levitical Law. The LEvitical Law is fulfilled in Christ and not applicable to the church. There is no Levitical Priesthood to receive tithe.


quote:
It is clear that we are still to faithfully tithe to what measure God has blessed us with...and His stated promises concerning this act of faithfulness is still as certain as any promise in the Bible because God loves a cheerful giver. But if you are going to give reluctantly because you feel you have to, then you might as well keep it in your wallet, because tithing is about one's thankfulness and faithfulness to the One who provides all of our needs.
Truly, where your treasure is, there your heart will also be. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I whole heartedly believe that we are to give. We are to give faithfully, Joyfully, Thankfully and frankly if we do not have a faithfully joyful thankful WANT and WILL to give then we ought check ourselves, because I believe that such giving is a product of GOD's spirit within us. Ole whats his name is right you cant out give GOD.. GOD gave ALL for us.

Tithe is a legal requirement. A work of the Law. Giving for the new testament church is not a legal requirement it is a product of the love of GOD in us.

quote:
1 Corinthians 16:1-3
Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem.

David, Jesus had already risen from the dead when this was written, and Linda, this clearly shows New Testament church tithing.

Blessings to all,

Tracy

This was not tithe!!!!!!! This was an offering and GIFT of love from the Gentile Church to the Jewish Church.

The scripture absolutely teaches that we are to support the material needs of the members of the Body of Christ. I scream this from the roof tops. But this is not a tithe. Every Sunday accross this land people "tithe" faithfully because someone taught them to tithe, and many give even more than 10% and in those same churches you see lack... people sitting in the pews that have not food and gas and tires on their cars and cant pay their electric and have to go to the government for medicine and it is a shame... a disgrace to the Body of Christ and no fault of those who have paid faithfully their tithe... but today tithing is taught that a building can be maintained and programs can go forth and a pastor can be supoorted without having to work and bigger fancier buildings can be built and on and on and we are not taking care of our brother's needs.

Tithe is not gift. Tithe is a legal requirement and it is not for the NT church. Faithful Joyful thankful abundant giving should not even be a question!
 
Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
Linda, give me a break....
Tithe...giving...offering...you know what we are talking about here. And now it seems you are backpeddling and want to say you were talking about titihing versus giving.
If you are to get hung up on terms how about clarifying yourself upfront so as to not mislead people by insinuating that we should not give by tithing.
Obviously, we are saved by Grace, and no work will do anything for our salvation. However, faith without works is a dead faith.
Christ came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. Likewise, we are not saved by the obeying of the commandments...but should we still try and obey them? Absolutely. And the same applies to tithing.
You are doing a mighty diservice unto the Lord here, in my opinion, who still requires obedience, regardless of the Grace that we are so amazingly saved by.
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Tracy we will have to agree to disagree here. I am not backpeddling if you read this thread you will see that my message has been the same from start to finish. Tithe is not required of the NT church. Tithe is a legal term. I do not and have never ever preached against giving.

I am against the preaching of tithe, because with it comes the preaching that the OT curses and blessings occur against the church if the church does not tithe. This is not true. This is to bind the church to the Law.
 
Posted by trafield (Member # 5358) on :
 
[spiny]
 
Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 4661) on :
 
A Quick edit here -

I too am AGAINST teaching tithing as it applies to giving as a necessary function of the church we attend.

I believe giving, as it applies to this same idea is up to the individual. If God leads you to give a tithe of 10%, then you should - Jesus tithed because he believed it was right to do.

If one does not feel comfortable tithing to the organization they call a home church, then I believe they should seek the Lords face and pray he show them and confirm how and where they should both tithe and give.

Tithing was not abolished, as I said Jesus tithed - It has, however, become a mainstream doctrine to preach it heavily from the pulpit as a means to increase the pockets.

It does indeed take money, and there are honest ones out there. Unfortunately, the dishonst ones have made it impossible to trust "MOST" of them.

We now belong to a church that believes in the old way - That the money is for the church - The church being the people - Fulfilling needs and serving the people.

so I do agree Linda - Teaching tithe as law and requirement to attend a church is wrong - J MHO

I do believe it is a requirement of Gods however, and I do believe he will show us how and where if we are diligent to inquire : )

Psalms 24:1 declares, "The earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains," and in 1 Corinthians 4:7, Paul asks, "And what do you have that you did not receive?"

God owns everything and all blessings come from Him. We are to be good stewards – managers – of the many blessings for which we should be thankful. Money isn’t our possession; it’s God’s possession, which we hold in trust.

Tithing

Giving is an external testimony of God’s ownership of everything in our lives. And tithing is one of the first standards of giving found in the Bible – Abraham tithed 430 years before the Law was given to Moses.


Under the law in the Old Testament, giving a tithe was required.
The tithe is not a limit. God’s people in the Old Testament were to give nearly one-fourth of their income each year.
God doesn’t own just 10 percent of our money; He owns the other 90 percent too.
Tithe and give with the right attitude. Not out of necessity, but with thanksgiving to the Lord.
Let your children witness your joyful giving and teach them the importance of commitment.
Beyond The Tithe

Giving beyond the tithe should be an outward material expression of the spiritual commitment of a willing and obedient heart. When giving beyond the tithe, give out of your abundance, according to the principle taught in 2 Corinthians 8:14.


Faith promise – A commitment to give a certain amount. It’s understood that if God doesn’t provide the funds, you’re not obligated to give them.
Pledge – An absolute commitment to pay something. This type of giving is presumptuous, but a faith promise is scriptural. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).
Non-cash – This includes your time or services to an organization or gifts such as food, furniture, and clothing. You may also give gifts with appreciated values (an asset you bought at a low price that is now worth much more), such as stocks, bonds, real estate, or anything that grows in value.
Draw the line on borrowing – It is not scriptural to borrow in order to give. It requires little trust to borrow money. In the Scriptures God never uses a loan to manifest His will in the lives of His people.
Balanced approach to sacrificial giving – Sacrificing to give is a way to honor God, but this should be the result of a heart attitude and not a desire to impress others.
Remember that God is more concerned about the attitude of your heart in giving than the percentage or the amount given. Nevertheless, the minimum He asks His people to give is the tithe.

Part of being a good steward (manager) of what God has provided is to give a portion back to Him. We pay the tithe, or 10 percent, of whatever we receive from Him. That tithe should be paid on our gross salary. It’s not that God needs our money; rather, giving serves as an external, material testimony that God owns both the material and spiritual things of our lives.

The tithe is an indicator of obedience to all of God’s laws. He is looking for the right attitude in our giving.

In the Old Testament book of Malachi we’re told that God wants us to direct our entire tithe into the storehouse. A storehouse in the Old Testament had four functions. It was used to feed (1) the tribe of Levi and the priests of Aaron, (2) the prophets, (3) the Hebrew widows and orphans living within the city, and (4) the widows and orphans of the Gentiles who were living in and around the Hebrew city.

However, the equivalent of the Old Testament storehouse in the New Testament, as well as in our present day society, is the local church. God’s Word tells us to bring our tithes into the storehouse (Malachi 3:10). When we obey Him and pay our tithes to the church, God holds the leaders of the church responsible for the distribution of the tithes (Nehemiah 12:44-45, 13:5,13). If we associate the functions of the Old Testament storehouse with the New Testament and current local church, its fourfold function would be to provide for the needs of (1) the pastor and staff, (2) missionaries and evangelists, (3) widows, orphans, single parents, and invalids in the local church, and (4) the unsaved who surround the local church.

Should we give our tithes to secular humanitarian organizations?
Because our tithes are given as a testimony in His name, the ministries that serve in God’s name should be the recipients of our tithes. Therefore, the tithe should not be used to support secular organizations. However, that doesn’t mean that there are not worthy organizations to which you can give. It simply means that the tithe—the first 10 percent of your gross income—should not be used to support secular organizations.

“Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a rich man whose ways are perverse” (Proverbs 28:6).

It doesn’t take many readings of the Book of Proverbs to realize that the writer had a fearsome respect for the deleterious effects of wealth. The fact is that he had very little good to say about it.

We could surmise that this is not because he believed wealth is inherently evil; rather, he thought of wealth the way we think of dynamite: Used properly, it achieves great things; used improperly, it destroys.

In this proverb the writer suggests that if blamelessness is the highest criterion for the good life, poverty is superior to wealth. Imagine that! The blameless “walk,” or life, is not of genetic origin, nor is it a quality of being that comes automatically. It is developed, just as one develops a skill or acquires special knowledge.

The blameless life is an intentional life. The blameless one rises each day with an eye toward living in accordance with the revelation offered by God. All other things find their proper order after this priority.

In Luke 18:25, Jesus observed: “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Wealthy readers might at first resent the fact that the rich person is being cast in the role of the “bad guy” in the Scriptures. But let us not forget that, at least as far as the Book of Proverbs is concerned, the writer most likely was a very wealthy person himself. He associated with people who shared his economic status. He simply knew too much.

He knew, for example, how often wealth is amassed at the expense of others--by bending the rules and searching for loopholes. He saw firsthand how unrestrained wealth corrodes the soul. He had witnessed those for whom wealth was everything—the definer of reality.

For all these reasons, the writer concluded, wealthy people are more likely to lose their spiritual “balance.” Better to be poor and blameless. This was not simple rhetoric; this man had been there. And yet, what he leaves in the silent spaces of the proverb is the most important thought: What happens when a person of influence and means becomes a generous giver of money, energy, and influence? What happens when this person makes the pursuit of godly character the highest priority? What happens when such a person determines that the love of Christ will pervade every decision, every relationship, every transaction? Then the proverb has done its job. It has pointed us to what is truly most important.
 
Posted by Brucea (Member # 6092) on :
 
There is an undeniable fact here! Tithing is only commanded under the LAW. No where else is it commanded! Those who keep quoting that God changes not, surely can not mean that we have not changed covenants!
While God has not changed the way to God has changed at the changing of the covenants.
John 1:17 for the law came through moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 7:18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness. 19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw near unto God.
Hebrews 7:For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

When you point to performance such as my giving a tithe you are pointing directly to the law!!!

The law was only a shadow and pattern of what was coming the substance and the complete fulfillment of the law is found in Jesus Christ.

Jesus established the kingdom of God! It did not come until He did! Here is a kingdom principle established by Him.
Matthew 17:24 When the had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?" 25 He said "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 Peter said to Him, From strangers." Jesus said to him, "THE SONS ARE FREE, Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you."

The son of the kingdom are free. Are you a son you are free. No customs or taxes can be extracted from the children. Our motive for giving should be for our sake Jesus became poor that we might become rich. His goodness,love, sacrifice, and blood should bring us to give cheerfully and with a willing heart.

If we try to bring the law of tithing into the believers life we will only stir up condemnation and sin
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW.

Many have brought up Malachi 3 is justification for the church to pay tithe. please pay close attention to Malachi 3:7 From the days of your fathers you have gone away from My ordinances, and have not kept them.

Now please pay attention to Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH THE ENMITY, THAT IS THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCE!!!!
They have been abolished why to we try to return to the performance of the law. It can not bring us life, self-righteousness perhaps, but not life.

If we are depending on our performance of tithing to make us right with God we have ceased looking at the cross and have gone on to trusting our own good works.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one Mans obedience many well be made righteous.

Are we so foolish that we see we are justified by faith in Christ only to believe our tithing will make us continue to be made right.
As for me I will keep depending on one Man's obedience. That not your obedience or mine, IT IS CHRIST JESUS!!!
 
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Hey Jim: I will still disagree regarding "tithe"; I believe that Jesus tithed because Jesus kept the Law as HE did not sin. But there are some things you said in this post that are just so good and are indeed my heart in this matter and I just want to pull them out and say amen.

quote:

We now belong to a church that believes in the old way - That the money is for the church - The church being the people - Fulfilling needs and serving the people.

Yes! Because we live in such a rural setting, during the week our kids attend a different church for youth than the one we attend on Sundays. They are both very giving congregations that practice the OLD WAY. Both churches are also Debt Free and we believe this is also the way it should be. Recognizing that the church is the BODY and not the building and fulfilling the needs of people is the key here for us too. Several years ago Hal was out of work for a long period of time. Over a year. GOD provided for us in that time through our church. Some members gave him work when they could... odd jobs here and there, some I think created where they might have done it themselves but instead paid him to do them. This was a huge blessing because it allowed him to continue to provide for us; others filled our freezer with deer and buffalo and what ever they had; someone would stop in and anonomously pay our electric bill one month a phone bill another month. Our Bible study group secretly took a special collection to pay our mortgage one month. We would come home to a bag of goodies or personal items like Tp and papertowels and things like that. I dont know how we made it except that GOD provided, but we made it through.. we did not lose our house; we did not ever lose our utilities; we did not go hungry; and we did not have to take government assitance, and we were able to continue to give offerings each week to boot! GOD provided through HIS BODY. We were so thankful and so blessed. We believe this is how it should be. God has led us to this kind of giving. Not just to the building and the programs, but also to the needs of people that meet in the buildings. We pray about the needs that God would have us fill; we watch.. we listen. we pay attention to look for unexpressed needs. We have even begun to teach our girls to do this. Did you hear someone was out of work? Sick? Unable to do this or that go here or there participate in this or that? It is amazing what God will show you that needs attention if you pay attention.


quote:
Psalms 24:1 declares, "The earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains," and in 1 Corinthians 4:7, Paul asks, "And what do you have that you did not receive?"

God owns everything and all blessings come from Him. We are to be good stewards – managers – of the many blessings for which we should be thankful. Money isn’t our possession; it’s God’s possession, which we hold in trust.

Giving is an external testimony of God’s ownership of everything in our lives.

Yes!!!! This is exactly how we feel. We do not feel justifed with a "tithe" of 10%... we dont feel the 90% is for us to spend on us. A few years ago, God really did a work in our hearts on this matter. We changed our whole lifestyle that we could be better stewards and spend less on us and give more. We traded a huge 4 digit mortgage payment for a rental payment that is 1/5th of what we used to spend and this allowed us to be better stewards and to give more in more ways. We have also been working on getting out of debt because that will also allow us to give more. Praise God we are almost there. Next year, when our last one is in college we have planned for more lifstyle changes,The Lord willing,that will allow us to give more of our resources and also to give more of our time.


quote:
And tithing is one of the first standards of giving found in the Bible – Abraham tithed 430 years before the Law was given to Moses.
I have talked of this. I really think that Abraham is the example of the church's ordinance on tithe, for Abraham was as we are not under law. But what did Abraham tithe to the King of Jerusalem?

quote:
The tithe is not a limit. God’s people in the Old Testament were to give nearly one-fourth of their income each year.
I left this one because it really is true and most people have never taken the time to add up all the tithe that was required. Every Jew was required by the Levitical law to pay three tithes of his property 1. one tithe for the Levites; 2. one for the use of the temple and the great feasts; and
3. one for the poor of the land.


quote:
God doesn’t own just 10 percent of our money; He owns the other 90 percent too.
Tithe and give with the right attitude. Not out of necessity, but with thanksgiving to the Lord.
Let your children witness your joyful giving and teach them the importance of commitment.
Beyond The Tithe

Giving beyond the tithe should be an outward material expression of the spiritual commitment of a willing and obedient heart. When giving beyond the tithe, give out of your abundance, according to the principle taught in 2 Corinthians 8:14.

Yes. I really believe that it is not enough that we give 10% and feel justified. When I say that I know that some are already living frugally and can only give 10% and that is fine. If you are a good steward of what you have and you cant give more than 10% fine. Some may not even be able to give 10% and they need some of what we who have more have so they can give 10%... but if you have more than you need, you should not be satisfied to give 10%. This life is not ours... it is not about us. I was listening to KP Yohannan, founder for Gospel for Asia and he was talking about his considering even the brand of toothpaste that he buys that he can have more to give. There are little ways that all of us can be better stewards of what we are given to work with. But GOD gives us the power to get wealth that HE may establish HIS kingdom and that is what we need to keep in mind.

quote:
Faith promise – A commitment to give a certain amount. It’s understood that if God doesn’t provide the funds, you’re not obligated to give them.
Pledge – An absolute commitment to pay something. This type of giving is presumptuous, but a faith promise is scriptural. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).
Non-cash – This includes your time or services to an organization or gifts such as food, furniture, and clothing. You may also give gifts with appreciated values (an asset you bought at a low price that is now worth much more), such as stocks, bonds, real estate, or anything that grows in value.
Draw the line on borrowing – It is not scriptural to borrow in order to give. It requires little trust to borrow money. In the Scriptures God never uses a loan to manifest His will in the lives of His people.
Balanced approach to sacrificial giving – Sacrificing to give is a way to honor God, but this should be the result of a heart attitude and not a desire to impress others.

I agree with this. Good advice.

quote:
It’s not that God needs our money; rather, giving serves as an external, material testimony that God owns both the material and spiritual things of our lives.

The tithe is an indicator of obedience to all of God’s laws. He is looking for the right attitude in our giving.

Scratch the word tithe in the above and insert "giving and I fully agree with this.

quote:
Should we give our tithes to secular humanitarian organizations?
Because our tithes are given as a testimony in His name, the ministries that serve in God’s name should be the recipients of our tithes. Therefore, the tithe should not be used to support secular organizations. However, that doesn’t mean that there are not worthy organizations to which you can give. It simply means that the tithe—the first 10 percent of your gross income—should not be used to support secular organizations.

I used to believe this way about this. I have a professional background in Non Profit Fund development and was at one time a Director of Fund Development for a national non profit organization. I have written grants and raised millions of dollars for various NON Profit organizations and you can not be in the profession of Philanthropy and not be a giver yourself. You simply must walk the talk and when talking one on one with prospective donors, particularly with regard to large gifts and endowments that go on giving after death, those folks will point blank ask you where your giving goes and they expect an honest answer! So, we have always been givers, but a few years ago, God really laid on our hearts that the GOSPEL is the most important thing, and today when we give it is either in ministry to the church or to evangelize the lost. If the spreading of the Gospel is not part of the ministry, we just cant seem to any more justify taking those dollars away from the Gospel. This is our own personal conviction and I dont try to say this is the way it should be because as you have said there are lots of organizations out there doing important things for humanity, but for us this is the way that we feel God has led us.


quote:
“Better a poor man whose walk is blameless than a rich man whose ways are perverse” (Proverbs 28:6).

It doesn’t take many readings of the Book of Proverbs to realize that the writer had a fearsome respect for the deleterious effects of wealth. The fact is that he had very little good to say about it.

We could surmise that this is not because he believed wealth is inherently evil; rather, he thought of wealth the way we think of dynamite: Used properly, it achieves great things; used improperly, it destroys.

In this proverb the writer suggests that if blamelessness is the highest criterion for the good life, poverty is superior to wealth. Imagine that! The blameless “walk,” or life, is not of genetic origin, nor is it a quality of being that comes automatically. It is developed, just as one develops a skill or acquires special knowledge.

The blameless life is an intentional life. The blameless one rises each day with an eye toward living in accordance with the revelation offered by God. All other things find their proper order after this priority.

In Luke 18:25, Jesus observed: “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Wealthy readers might at first resent the fact that the rich person is being cast in the role of the “bad guy” in the Scriptures. But let us not forget that, at least as far as the Book of Proverbs is concerned, the writer most likely was a very wealthy person himself. He associated with people who shared his economic status. He simply knew too much.

He knew, for example, how often wealth is amassed at the expense of others--by bending the rules and searching for loopholes. He saw firsthand how unrestrained wealth corrodes the soul. He had witnessed those for whom wealth was everything—the definer of reality.

For all these reasons, the writer concluded, wealthy people are more likely to lose their spiritual “balance.” Better to be poor and blameless. This was not simple rhetoric; this man had been there. And yet, what he leaves in the silent spaces of the proverb is the most important thought: What happens when a person of influence and means becomes a generous giver of money, energy, and influence? What happens when this person makes the pursuit of godly character the highest priority? What happens when such a person determines that the love of Christ will pervade every decision, every relationship, every transaction? Then the proverb has done its job. It has pointed us to what is truly most important.

Excellent. I really liked that. I have often pondered the scripture 1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

That is an incredibly deep thing.... the root of ALL evil??? That really boggles the mind to consider. You can even love money for the right reason... that you can give it... and that love of money can lead to evil.

Anyway. Good discussion Jim. You brought up some excellent points.
 
Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 4661) on :
 
Thanks Linda!

While I know we do not always agree, I really appreciate the response.

It is truly awesome to hear about the well support in Asia -

It is such a problem all over the world. It is a real life giving ministry.

And I do believe that money given to this, can be considered tithe and giving.

God looks at the heart, and he knows our real motivations is all we do : )
 
Posted by Bandit (Member # 3643) on :
 
Hello all,

Well, the pastor at the church I go to just gave a Malachi 3:10 sermon. It would seem that the church needs money (though it lacks nothing) so it was time for the obligatory guilt trip. So I may need to take a dose of my own medicine and begin thinking about finding a new church. Perhaps this is long overdue. I have been here for a few years, and I have simply overlooked some of the other teachings which I consider to be wrong, like some calvinistic overtones, or the ever popular pre-trib "We're gona' get sucked out of here before things get bad", but it seems that more recently that this church is moving even further from biblical truth. I will be out of town for the next week. Talk to all of you when I get back.

Bandit

P.S. TheGreatSouthLand has a private message!
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Bandit.

As long as Christians want to meet in buildings and expect non-Christians to "come to them in the building", there WILL be BILLS TO PAY, so I would not call it the "obligatory guilt trip."

Of course, it depends a little on how it is presented, but a listing for example of the bills that need to be paid and for what is reasonable, so that the congregation can realize that, hey, if you (and I) want to continue to meet in a BUILDING, then there are certain MUST bills to pay.

Or, we can also take the "super spiritual" route and "say nothing" about the bills and "God will send the money that we need for the bills", but I don't think that is Biblical.

For instance, Moses let it be known that blue, purple, gold, silver, linen, oil, and so on, was needed for the making of the tabernacle and its instruments, and Moses flat out asked Israel to "bring it for the LORD", until so much had been given for the house of the LORD that Moses could tell them to stop.

To return to modern times, as long as Christians want to MEET IN BUILDINGS and expect non-Christians to COME TO where the Christians are IN THE BUILDING, then there WILL BE the "obligatory bills to pay", and mentioning what the bills are is a good and reasonable way to get that done, and not really "the obligatory guild trip" since YOU YOURSELF are apparently MEETING IN THE BUILDING too.

Be blessed.

Eden
 
Posted by Eddie (Member # 6132) on :
 
No, God does not need our money. Everything we have belongs to Him anyway. Everything. No you should never give out of guilt, or compulsion to give. The Lord loves a cheerful giver. Your local church has bills that need to be paid, just like your home. It does not exist in a vacuum where all needs are somehow mysteriously provided for. I am not going to say whether tithing is specifically called for in the NT or not, but I do know that, as a believer, we are expected to give back.
 
Posted by niel (Member # 6113) on :
 
Tithe is like all the laws in the old testament just the shadow of the better thing. We tithe unto God under the law, now that we are children we give on behalf of God. The principal of giving comes from the “shadow” of the law of tiding, but the better thing is that now the Holly Spirit through a process teaches us how much we must give, depends on the situation, to whom we must give, first to the household of faith, and when we must give. After we mature in this teaching we become a partner with the Spirit, so now we make decisions together. If we read Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living. She trusted God with all her living. You see what happened here, Jesus wanted to teach us, under the new covenant we cast every thing into His kingdom’s treasury, because if you trust God with every thing He can trust you with everything Now we share the treasury with our King and Father and through the partnership of the Holy Spirit we now give on behalf of God and we can even give more that we have put in. We must also look at Deut.14:22-26 where God wants us also to take from this treasury and enjoy it with our family. Remember this only works if you under the new covenant and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Also you have to look at the new covenant through the eyes of a relationship.
love you all
Niel
 
Posted by David (Member # 1) on :
 
The below bible teachings are very, very good on the subject of tithings.

Tithing In The Old Covenant - Terminate The Tithe! - Click Here to listen now

Giving In The New Covenant - Terminate the Tithe! - Click Here to listen now.

These are really eye opening if you want to really know the truth about tithing and not just fall for the man made traditions.

PART ONE: Tithing in the Old Covenant - gives a complete history of tithing, all the commandments on tithing, a description of the different tithes (there were several), why those commandments were given, and why Organized Religion desperately wants you to believe they all apply to you today.

PART TWO: Giving in the New Covenant - shows how a Spirit-led believer in Christ is free from the curse of the Law, including tithing, and gives a complete history of giving from a New Testament perspective so you can experience joy, not fear, when God leads you to give - or, to NOT give.

If you have questions about tithing and you need Scriptural teaching from someone other than the pastor of a church that expects you to pay tithes, this teaching is for you. I hope you'll check it out, listen to the evidence, and come to your own prayerful conclusion.

From: http://www.theschoolofchrist.org
 
Posted by powerhouse (Member # 3826) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
We are on a fixed income and we tithe. When I made minimum wage as a mom with two kids, I tithed. I found that when I tithed God helped my money go further. To me tithing is a priviledge.

Betty, I like your thinking. I see tithing as relevant... but I don't see it as a yoke, nor to I see it as a get-rich scheme for a preacher.

Granted, there are some (local as well as on TV) who go overboard on the giving kick... but those whose hearts are soft and pliable before God are those who give in faith and expectancy.

I have found that the thing that limits me is not my giving, but my ability to receive. And as God has increased my income, my giving has increased as the tithe is my baseline.

Keep up the good work in Texas!
 
Posted by bought@paid4 (Member # 6110) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by David:
The below bible teachings are very, very good on the subject of tithings.

Tithing In The Old Covenant - Terminate The Tithe! - Click Here to listen now

Giving In The New Covenant - Terminate the Tithe! - Click Here to listen now.

These are really eye opening if you want to really know the truth about tithing and not just fall for the man made traditions.

PART ONE: Tithing in the Old Covenant - gives a complete history of tithing, all the commandments on tithing, a description of the different tithes (there were several), why those commandments were given, and why Organized Religion desperately wants you to believe they all apply to you today.

PART TWO: Giving in the New Covenant - shows how a Spirit-led believer in Christ is free from the curse of the Law, including tithing, and gives a complete history of giving from a New Testament perspective so you can experience joy, not fear, when God leads you to give - or, to NOT give.

If you have questions about tithing and you need Scriptural teaching from someone other than the pastor of a church that expects you to pay tithes, this teaching is for you. I hope you'll check it out, listen to the evidence, and come to your own prayerful conclusion.

From: http://www.theschoolofchrist.org

I agree with you David that tithing is not scriptural in the New Covenant. However, the New Covenant does say that we should as believers give what we determine in our own hearts. We need to give because:

- the Gospel of salvation can't be preached into all the earth without money. In Acts we see how the church sold their excess to give to the furthering of the gospel- missions.

- Our churches need money to pay rent, electric, etc.

- We need to help the poor in our families, then our church, then the world according to scripture. When we give to the poor, Jesus said it's like giving to him. "When I was naked, you clothed me."............

It irritates me when ministeries spend tons of money on gyms, cafe's, etc. and not on missions or ministries. It also irritates me when I turn on the t.v. and I see preachers who spend excessive amounts on things, but not on what is important. For example:

Why do they have to buy 1,000,000 dollar planes when a 500,000 dollar one would get the job done sufficiently? Why do they have to buy 30,000 dollar pianos when a 10,000 dollar piano sounds beautiful? Why do they have to buy "top of the line" material goods, IOW overpriced goods, when that money is better spent on helping kids buy school supplies, or feeding the hungry, or sending evangelists to other countries, or sending young people to missionary school?

That, to me, is wrong.

It is also wrong to arm twist people into giving (they love to quote O.T. on that), through fear of God's wrath for all of their pet projects and overspending. Meanwhile, believers are in need, children are in need, the poor are in need, the unsaved are unreached. Did you know that only 5% of the money that the body of Christ gives goes to evangelists/missionaries? What has happened to our priorities? Shouldn't our priorities be the same as God's? His number one priority is souls. In order for believers to preach the good news in all the earth, they have to have money to go there. It isn't free. It is my opinion that we should pay or pack. Pack or pay; or both. But we are not commanded to give. But we are commanded to preach the good news to all the earth.
 
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, bought@paid4. BTW, I like the way you think and talk. You said:

Our churches need money to pay rent, electric, etc.

Eden here:

On this part I think churches are making a mistake. The Jews had synagogues in which they met, and the Jews also proselytize, just like Christians or “completed Jews” evangelize by adding Jesus as the Messiah or Son of God to the Jewish evangelistic mix.

Here is my point: the Church would HAVE NO BILLS TO PAY if the Church MET IN THE PUBLIC PARKS on the days that the weather was good; and if the weather was “kinda bad”, the church brothers should be obliged to put up the gospel tent. And perhaps the church could hire some day-workers to put up the tent for the brothers.

It is much cheaper to put up and maintain a tent than to pay bill for a church building on a real estate.

The church is making a mistake by meeting in church buildings fixed on real estate. If we could get the church OUT of the buildings and INTO the public areas of the city, the church would make MANY more converts.

We need to reverse the mentality that we meet IN churches “and KINDA HOPE that some new sinners will come walking through that door.”

My father said he used to have respect for and love the Krishna devotees because they had the courage to “dance through the city to their god Krishna”, while we Christians are nowhere to be seen. We need to go “dance through the city ourselves, Amen?”

Be blessed, everyone.

Eden
 




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