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Posted by Adv.Christian (Member # 3453) on
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![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Good morning my brothers and sisters. I wanted to ask everybody a favor. Allow me to start by giving you readers digest version of what I believe the Word of God to say concerning Rapture, 2nd Resurrection and the state of man after death. 1st- I can not find any consistent teaching of post, pre or mid tribulation Rapture of the Church, in fact, I find the Word of God to seemingly teach the opposite to that unless the use of insinuation and assumption is involved. 2nd- Concerning the 2nd resurrection; it seems to me that it is in simplicity the return of Jesus Christ at which time all mankind will be raised either to salvation or unto damnation. 3rd- And lastly the state of man after death is that of sleep until the return of Christ on the final day at which time either you have salvation or you are destroyed eternally. The fate of those which are unsaved is eternal destruction (the 2nd death) and not that of being placed in an eternal fire and torment.
Now that being said please allow me to ask my favor of everybody. While I stress that above is a limited over view of what I find; I wrote this only to give everbody a back ground of where I am currently and what I currently believe. What I would like to ask of everybody is for your assistance in helping me with my understanding of the doctrine of the rapture of the church by using scripture to help me to follow the teaching and belief in it. Please understand I admire and respect the knowledge and opinions of all members of this forum; but I would like to ask that any answers and opinions you decide to reply with you also include the scriptures on which the replies are based.
I am not attempting to start an argument over this topic, in fact quite the opposite. My prayer and desire is that you all can assist me in my growth and understanding of God’s Word. I desire to understand the views of rapture and exactly how this belief is derived in order to know if my understanding is in fact incorrect or flawed. Please understand I do not wish to attempt to delve into what or why I hold the beliefs I hold I do not desire to debate the issue I only hope to come to a clearer understanding of this subject and with with everybody’s assistance and God's guidence with this I am confident I will. I thank you in advance for your help and as always my love to all and May God bless. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Born Again please note the use of a capital G indicating the reference to the God of Israel. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
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The Rapture of the Church
What is it and when will it take place?
by Dr. David R. Reagan
The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church. The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.
The Term
The term, Rapture, comes from a Latin word that means to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out. It is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.
A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church.
The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.”
Biblical References
The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”
The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.” Paul then exhorts us to “comfort one another with these words.”
Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 - his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead:
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” (verses 51 and 52)
Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be perfected, imperishable and immortal (1 Cor. 15:42-44, and 50-55).
The Timing
The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.
The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.
Post-Tribulation Rapture
Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord’s Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.
In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (Matt. 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus’ speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke’s record of the same speech.
Note, for example, Matthew’s references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matt. 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke’s account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance “to escape all these things” when the end time signs “begin to take place” (Luke 21:28 and 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.
It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew’s account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Rev. 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matt. 24:31).
The parable of the wheat and tares (Matt. 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matt. 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.
Mid-Tribulation Rapture
There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.
This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.
But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.
Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a “flash forward” to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.
Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when “the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.”
The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.
Pre-Wrath Rapture
The cornerstone of this concept is that the terrifying events during the first half of the Tribulation are due to the wrath of Man and Satan, and not to God. Since the Church is only promised protection from the wrath of God, the Rapture will not occur until near the end of the Tribulation when God will pour out His wrath on the world.
This concept raises a serious theological problem because it questions the sovereignty of God. It assumes that Man and Satan can act apart from God’s will, when the fact of the matter is that neither can do anything God is not willing to permit. The Bible often portrays God carrying out His will through evil persons or nations. One of the classic examples is when He allowed the evil nation of Babylon to discipline Israel by destroying Jerusalem and the Temple and by carrying the surviving Jews away into captivity. It was an action that prompted the prophet Habakkuk to ask why God would punish those who are evil with those who are more evil (Habakkuk 1:13).
Any carnage wrought by Man or Satan during the Tribulation will still constitute the wrath of God. They will simply be His instruments. The Bible says God sits in the heavens and laughs over the plots and deeds of evil men, not because He does not care, but because He has everything under control (Psalm 2:1-6). The point is that He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all evil to the triumph of His will in history. That’s why the psalmist wrote that “the wrath of man shall praise You [God]” (Psalm 76:10).
I think it is also important to note that when God pours out His wrath, He does not always do so directly. One of His most common ways is to simply back away from the nation or person and lower the hedge of protection around them. This is clearly spelled out in Romans 1:18-32. That passage says that when people rebel against God to the point that they begin to worship the creation rather than the Creator, God “gives them over” to the evil in their hearts. In other words, He just steps back and lets evil multiply. The passage further states that if they still refuse to repent, He steps back again and “gives them over to degrading passions.” And if they persist in their rebellion and sin, He finally “gives them over to a depraved mind” at which point the society destroys itself. Such destruction could be viewed as the wrath of Man, but it is really the wrath of God working through Man.
There is another serious problem with the pre-wrath Rapture concept. It relates to the fact that all the wrath of Revelation is specifically portrayed as the wrath of God. Where do the seal judgments originate? The answer is from the throne of God as Jesus opens each seal of the scroll that was in the Father’s right hand (Revelation 6:1). And where do the trumpet judgments originate? The same place — from the throne of God (Revelation 8:2). When we arrive at the bowl judgments in Revelation 15:1, we are told that with them, “the wrath of God is finished.”
Another problem with the pre-wrath concept is that it does violence to the chronological order of Revelation. The seal judgments are viewed as the wrath of Man and Satan, occurring during the first half of the Tribulation. The trumpet and bowl judgments are considered to be the wrath of God. They are lumped together at the end of the Tribulation. There is no justification for putting the trumpet judgments at the end of the Tribulation. They are clearly placed in the first half of the Tribulation in the chronological layout of the book of Revelation.
One final problem with the pre-wrath concept of the Rapture is that it disputes the fact that there is no purpose for the Church being in the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the 70th week of Daniel, a time devoted to God accomplishing His purposes among the Jewish people, not the Church.
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence. Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matt. 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matt. 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.
Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.
For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.
Focus
This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).
Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matt. 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.
Wrath
Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.
The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven . . . who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 - “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Deliverance
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 7:1-8).
But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:36). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thess. 1:10).
Symbolism
There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation. Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah’s time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.
Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.
The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 4-9).
Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus’s time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father’s house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated.
Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father’s heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with “the marriage supper of the Lamb” described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.
Revelation
Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense. The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the “bride of Christ” in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the “marriage supper of the Lamb.” At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Rev. 19:14).
The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Rev. 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book’s description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of “saints” (for example, Rev. 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Dan. 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.
Paul’s Assurance
An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul’s name stating that they had missed the “gathering to the Lord” and were, in fact, living in “the day of the Lord” (2 Thess. 2:1-2).
Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force “is taken out of the way” (2 Thess. 2:3-7).
There has been much speculation as to the identify of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 and 1 John 5:7).
Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Rev. 13:7).
In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul’s restrainer - and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because “men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power.” When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.
Escapism?
The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as “escapism.” I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to “comfort one another” with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thess. 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world’s worst period of war instead of at the beginning?
Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord’s return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.
If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on “the full armor of God” (Eph. 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Eph. 6:14-18).
If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God’s salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).
Posted by Adv.Christian (Member # 3453) on
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Watcher thank you for your reply It is helpful in the matter but I would like to know alittle more in depth if it is possible.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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The Rapture, etc. have to be studied quite thoroughly in order to be able to get a clear concept of the proper sequence of events. There are clues dotted throughout the whole Bible regarding the Rapture, tribulation and Jesus' Second Coming. We can see a summation of events in Revelation.
The Rapture -
Notice in the following scripture that we are being transported to heaven. In the Second Coming Jesus comes down to earth. We don't go to heaven at that point.
Rev. 4. 1,2 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
Tribulation
Further on Rev. 6 speaks about the anti -christ, which is during the tribulation.
Jesus' Second Coming
The first part of Rev. 19 speaks about the Bride, already in heaven, being prepared to return with Jesus for his Second Coming.
Rev. 19:5 And from the throne came a voice that said. "Praise our God, all his servants, from the least to the greatest, all who fear Him."
In Rev. 19:19-21 Then I saw the beast gathering the kings of the earth and their armies in order to fight against the one sitting on the horse and his army.(This shows that Jesus had returned to earth at this point.)
And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast--miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. Their entire army was killed by the sharp sword that came out of the mouth of the one riding the white horse. And all the vultures of the sky gorged themselves on the dead bodies.
The Thousand Years
Rev. 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel come down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand. 2He seized the dragon--that old serpent, the Devil, Satan--and bound him in chains for a thousand years. 3The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished. Afterward he would be released again for a little while.
Later on Rev. 20 it refers to the final the final judgment and Rev. 21 talks about the new heaven and the new earth
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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I would like to bring a different take on the one thing that is definately not in the Bible, and that is the word Rapture, or any Biblical 'hope', or 'calling', or 'predestination', or 'adoption' into such an event. And the word does not come from the Latin word catch up, that is English coming from the word rapture, not the other way around, and the definition of caught up is not in the primary position of definition, several other words are. In fact, if one is to associate the Latin word for rapture with being caught up, it is to be caught up in sexual exctasy of a violent sort. The fact is, the Latin word for rapture is the same as the Engilsh word for rape. And that is a fact.
IMO, the Lord God Almighty has a mastery of language as well as everything else, and the one place He definately speaks of any fly away doctrine and those who teach it is found in Ez13, where I read He is against those who "teach His children to fly to save their souls".
He says He is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls. Appearently this has no meaning for the 'rapture crowd'. It doesn't seem to bother them that they word is not present, nor are their any direct statements saying a rapture is the blessed hope of the believer.
DECEIVED:
planaō
plan-ah'-o
From G4106; to (properly cause to) roam (from safety, truth, or virtue): - go astray, err, seduce, wander, be out of the way.
There are several hopes of the believer, and many do exist in resurrection, but there is at no time, either in the Greek, or the English, even one reference of the Lord coming back before the day of the Lord.
What is actually written? First lets look at what the Lord Himself said:
The whole period covered by "the day of the Lord" is called the final meeting of the ages, or the sunteleia; but, the crisis in which it culminates is called the telos, the end of the age.
Both are rendered "end" in the New Testament, but the use of these two words must be carefully distinguished.
Sunteleia denotes a finishing or ending together, or in conjunction with other things. Consummation is perhaps the best English rendering. It implies that several things meet together, and reach their end during the same period; whereas telos is the point of time at the end of that period For example, in Matt. 24. 3 the disciples ask, "What shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the sunteleia of the age."
In His answer, the Lord speaks of the whole of the sunteleia. But three times He mentions the telos to say that "the telos is not yet" *verse 6*; to give a promise to him "that shall endure unto the telos" *verse 13*; to mark the crisis in verse 14, which comes immediately after the close of the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom." "Then shall the telos come." The sign of the telos is the setting up of "the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet." Thus the telos, and he who endures to this, the same shall be saved, and will be among the overcomers.
The overcomer is one who endures unto the telos, they will see the sunteleia.
Those who are not overcomers are decieved.
In Mat24 He makes clear those who cannot be deceived are the very elect. That means the very elect are the overcomers. They will not be deceived, they will endure unto the telos, witness to the sunteleia,the final meeting of the ages, the day of the Lord, the Lord's day, at the 7th trumpet.
Our Lord speaking:
"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
"'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matt 24:26-31
Jesus says that He will come after the sun will be darkened, after the moon is darkened, after the stars fall…etc. Notice He says...”they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky. Sounds familiar doesn’t it …look at Acts 1:10
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
Lets see what the prophets have said of the Day of the Lord, for instance:
Isa 13:9-11
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Ezek 30:3
3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Joel 2:1-2
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Joel 2:31-32
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Amos 5:20
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Zeph 1:14-15
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Darkness and Clouds seem to be common on the Day of the Lord, wouldn't you say?
Luke 21:7-28
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. 13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not a hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** , in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
1 Thess 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Shall rise first! The first Resurrection! Check Rev 20
Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Notice these people did not take the mark. First Resurrection after the tribulation.
Dead in Christ shall rise first.
Just so you know, the Lord won't be back before the tribulation heres some reinforcement:
2Th 2:2-4
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Remember we true believers are not so that that day should overcome us like a theif, we shall continue unto the telos!
And if the Lords return is supposed to be a secret snatching away then why all the fan fair? Trumpets of God, Shout of the Archangel. Earthquake! ? ! Clearly the tribulation period has past, for why would Jesus still be proclaiming his coming as a theif in Rev 16:15
Rev 16:15-16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Notice the Lord has not come as a thief to those watching, and yet immediately after we see the gathering at Armageddon.
The Pre-Tribulational message clearly needs two days of the Lord, and two resurrections of the saints in order to be valid.
It is more faithful to trust the Lord himself, and not the doctrines of men.
Also, there is the MAJOR fact, that the Thess epistles were written very early during the kingdom offer to Israel, and had she repented and so turned back to her King, their 'at hand' kingdom would've come, they would have witnessed as overcomers the whole of the sunteleia and the telos. There is nothing to indicate anywheres that the 'at hand' kingdom would anticipate any leaving the earth before the day of the Lord.
I believe that if being rap...is Biblical, it would be closely associated with the believers hope, so lets look at a couple of Biblical hopes:
Where we read of "hope" in the New Testament we often find in the context a reference either to a "promise" or to a "calling". For example, Paul before Agrippa says:
"And now I stand and am judged for THE HOPE OF THE PROMISE made of God unto our fathers; unto which promise OUR TWELVE TRIBES, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come" (Acts 26:6,7).
We should be able to find rap...being an OT hope then according to the above verse, for that HOPE LOOKS TO THE FULFILMENT OF A PROMISE. It is therefore necessary to discover what promise has been made to any particular company before we can speak with understanding of their hope. Another prerequisite is a knowledge of the "calling" concerned.
"That ye may know what is THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING" (Eph. 1: 18).
"Even as ye are called in ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING" (Eph. 4:4).
The realization of our hope in the future will be in agreement with our calling now by faith.
"Now faith is the substance of things HOPED for" (Heb. 11 :1).
There are at least three distinct spheres of blessing, which brings three distinct hopes, indicated in the New Testament:
1. The Earth. - "Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth" (Matt. 5:5).
2. The Heavenly City. - "The city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . . . and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (Heb. 12:22,23).
3. Far above all. - "He ascended up, far above all heavens" (Eph.4:10). "And made us sit together in heavenly places" (Eph. 2:6).
These three spheres of blessing correspond to three distinct callings wherein lie three distinct hopes:
1. The Kingdom. - "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth" (Matt. 6:10).
2. The Bride. - "The Bride, the Lamb's wife . . . the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev. 21:9,10).
3. The Body. - "His body. . . the church: whereof I (Paul) am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you . . . the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations" (Col. 1 :24-26).
These three spheres of blessing, each with its special calling, have associated with them three groups of people in the N.T. The first sphere of blessing is exclusive to ISRAEL according to the flesh; the second to believers from among both "JEW and GREEK", while in the third sphere the calling is addressed to "YOU GENTILES".
1. Israel according to the flesh. - "My kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises, whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" (Rom. 9:3-5).
2. Abraham's seed (includes believing Gentiles). - "Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? . . . they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. . . . For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. There is neither Jew or Greek . . . for ye are .all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:3,7,9,27-29).
3. The One New Man. - "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew . . . but Christ is all and in all" (Col. 3:11).
"That He might create in Himself of the twain one new man, so making peace" (Eph. 2:15 R.V.).
"That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs" (Eph. 3:6).
Note that at no point in these three callings/hopes, is there one about leaving the planet to escape the great tribulation. For that matter, at no time in all of the Bible does God save anyone from tribulation. He saves many through tribulation, but never from them. He shall save His faithful throught even the great tribulation, for it is written that there shall be some who endure unto the telos.
If any would read consecutively Daniel nine, ten, e1even and twelve, 1 Thessalonians four and five, 2 Thessalonians one and two, and Revelation thirteen, the testimony of the truth itself would be so strong as to need no human advocate.
The scriptures speak for themselves. WATCH NOW OR SEE LATER!
Posted by Adv.Christian (Member # 3453) on
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HisGrace thank you for your input on the subject at hand, I thank you and it is very useful. Epouraniois, thank you also for your input and views.
I think however I have not conveyed what I am attempting to get everybody’s help with very clearly. What I am asking for is help in understanding how the belief of Rapture is derived or why it is believed in in this way. Given the fact that I have a different understanding of the subject I naturally tend to see the scriptures from the angle consistent with that belief and I am attempting to learn how the believers in Rapture see the application of the scriptures in order to be able to study and confirm or disprove my understanding of what the scriptures are or are not saying concerning this matter. Please understand I am fully aware of the fact that only God can open my or anyone’s eyes to what the scripture says but I also know He expects us to teach and learn from our brothers and sisters. As always my love to all and May God bless.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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Adv. Christian often if we become too analytical and expect to see certain things in the scriptures that haven't been revealed to us, we become more confused and aren't at peace with any answer we receive.
John often refers to believers as 'children.' We have to read the scriptures with child-like faith. If we don't understand them, sometimes we have to trust insight gained by fellow brothers and sisters who have prayfully gradually gained new bits of wisdom and knowledge through time.
quote:
What I am asking for is help in understanding how the belief of Rapture is derived or why it is believed in in this way. Given the fact that I have a different understanding of the subject I naturally tend to see the scriptures from the angle consistent with that belief and I am attempting to learn how the believers in Rapture see the application of the scriptures in order to be able to study and confirm or disprove my understanding of what the scriptures are or are not saying concerning this matter
I personally can't answer the above question, and in my mind I don't see the necessity to answer such a question. This is getting too technical for me, and I don't believe the Bible deals with the many avenues of why and wherefores, just the facts.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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The Bible has really given us 3 major admonishments on how to study, precept upon precept, that's comparing like with like. Spiritual with Spiritual. And try, or testing the things that are different.
This is a study done by an ex rapture believer:
People use I Thess. 1:10 to try to prove that the resurrection in I Thess. 4 takes place before the tribulation period begins . They point out that it says they would be delivered from the "wrath to cone" and that they were not appointed to wrath in I Thess.5:9. But , that cannot be, true for Paul also told them , they would be resurrected at the last trumpet in I Cor.15:52 and the last trumpet is the seventh of seven , that will be blown DURING the tribulation before Jesus comes at the end. Paul also told them that the day of Christ which was His coming and their gathering together unto Him , was not at hand ,for it would be PRECEEDED by a falling away and the revelation of the Anti-Christ , which all takes place DURING THE TRIBULATION , NOT BEFORE . (II Thess.2:1-6 ) You cannot ignore these facts when reading I Thess.1:10.
Lets compare what Jesus says here with what Paul says.
THE HOPE OF MATT. 24 IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
Verse 30 ,
"they shall see the Son of man COMING "
verse 29,
"For as the lightening cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the COMING of the Son of man be "
THE HOPE OF I COR. 15 AND I THESS. 4 IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
In I Cor. 15:22-23 Paul wrote,
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits ; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING ".
In I Cor. 1:7 he wrote,
" So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST " .
In I Thess. 4:15 he wrote
"For this we say unto you by the word of the lord, that we which are alive and remain unto THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep "
The hope of the Acts Believers was the coming of the Lord. Paul mentions it 10 times in his Acts epistles . Check them out and see for yourself , I Cor. 1:7 , 4:5, 11:26 , 15:23, I Thess.2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23, 11 Thess.1:10, 2:1 .
This must be the secong coming, but the rapturists must then, believe in 3 comings, which is nowhere to be found Biblically.
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES , HE COMES IN THE CLOUDS
Verse 30 says,
" They shall see the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN "
IN 1 THESS. AND I COR. 15 WHEN JESUS COMES HE COMES IN CLOUDS.
Verse 17 says,
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS , to meet the Lord in the air".
If you want to know were the clouds are, look up into the air, and you will see them . It's the clouds in the lower atmosphere .
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS HE WILL. COME WITH ANGELS
Verse 31,
"And He shall send forth his ANGELS "
IN 1 THESS. 4 AND 1 COR. 15 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS HE WILL COME WITH ANGELS
In 1 Thess. 4:16 it says,
" HE will descend from heaven with... the voice of the ARCHANGEL.
Michael is the archangel and the prince of Israel (DAN 12:1-2) and were Michael goes so does HIS ANGELS , read Rev. 12:7.
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS A TRUMPET IS BLOWN.
Verse 31,
"And he shall send his angels with a great SOUND OF A TRUMPET "
IN 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS A TRUMPET IS BLOWN .
I Cor. 15:52 says,
"FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND and the dead shall be raised " I Thess.4:16 says " The Lord himself shall descend from heaven ...WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD".
THE TRUMPET THAT IS BLOWN IN MATT.24 IS THE LAST TRUMPET FOR IT IS BLOWN AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION
Verse 29 says
" Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... vs. 31 "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet".
THE TRUMPET IN 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR.15 IS SPECIFICALLY CALLS THE LAST TRUMPET
In I Cor. 15:52 Paul wrote,
"In a moment , in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the Trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised ".
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF MATT. 24 TAKES PLACE, NOT ONLY WILL THE LORD DESCEND FROM HEAVEN IN THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS AND A TRUMPET, BUT A VOICE WILL BE HEARD ALSO.
The voice is not mentioned in Matt. 24 but it is in JOHN 5:25, 28. It says
" The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"
IN 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WHEN THE LORD DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN INTO THE CLOUDS WITH ANGELS AND THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET, A VOICE WILL BE HEARD
In I Thess.4:16 Paul said " the Lord shall descend fray heaven WITH A SHOUT 0
The shout is for the dead ; the trumpet for those alive.
IN MATT.24 WHEN JESUS COMES WITH HIS ANGELS ,AND A SHOUT AND A
THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET, HIS ELECT WILL BE GATHERED TOGETHER
Verse 31 says
" They shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other ( Also read Mk.13:27)
IN I COR. 15 AND 1 THESS. 4 WHEN JESUS OOZES WITH A SBA, A TRUMPET, AND ANGELS, HIS ELECT WILL BE GAS TOGETHER
In II Thess. 2:1 Paul wrote "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM R.
And those that he gathers together here , are his elect also according to I Thess.l:4, and II Thess.2:13.
THE RESURRECTION IN I THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WILL BE SUDDEN AND UNEXPECTED ALSO.
In ICor. 15:52 Paul said: "IN A MOMENT , IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised..."
When Paul says: "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," he is showing you HOW FAST that resurrection will take place. But when he says "AT the last trump", he is showing you WHEN it will take place. It will be sudden and unexpected, just like the hope of Matt. 24.
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF MATT. 24 TAKES PLACE, BELIEVERS WHO ARE ALIVE WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITHOUT DYING.
This fact is brought out by the Lord in John. 11. In John 11, Lazarus who was Martha's brother died and she wants Christ to raise him from the dead. And Jesus said unto her in vs. 23 "Thy brother shall rise again". Martha saith .unto him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said unto her: "I am the resurrection; and the life: he that believeth in me; though he were dead, yet shall he live. AND WHOSOEVER LIVETH AND Believeth IN ML SHALL NEVER DIE.. BELIEVEST THOU THIS?"
When Jesus said, he that believeth in me though he were dead, yet shall he live" He is referring to those who are dead when the resurrection of the last day takes place. And when He said "whosoever liveth and believeth in me" He is referring to those who are alive when the resurrection of the last day takes place and he says: "THEY SHALL NEVER DIE". When the resurrection of Matt. 24 takes place, those believers who are dead will be raised and those believers who are alive, will be gathered together without dying.
WHEN THE RESURRECTION OF 1 THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 TAKES PLACE BELIEVERS WHO ARE ALIVE WILL BE CAUGHT UP WITHOUT DYING.
In I Cor. 15:51 Paul said: "I shew you a Mystery; WE SHALL NOT ALL SLEEP, but we shall be changed _"
The Mystery of I Cor. 15:51 is not the resurrection, but it's the fact that there will be some caught up without dying. But this is a mystery hidden in the Scriptures, for in vs.55 Paul quotes Isa. 25:8 which says "O Death where is thy sting?" In other words, in the Old Testament Scriptures, it was written down that somebody was going to get out of this life without experiencing the sting of death.
This is what Jesus is referring to in John 11 when he said "He that liveth and believeth in me shall never die." That was the only time that Christ mentioned that fact to anyone, and prior to Paul it was the general consensus that by the time that resurrection took place all believers would be dead . But God opened up the scriptures to Paul and he was the first man to fully understand that fact and write about it. But, nevertheless, it was in the Old Testament Scriptures, even though concealed.
THE HOPE OF MATT. 24 WAS ISRAEL'S HOPE.
The resurrection Jesus describes in Matt.24 is the hope of the New Covenant that God made with Israel.
HOPE OF PAUL'S ACTS EPISTLES, WAS THE HOPE OF ISRAEL.
In Acts 28:20 Paul told the Jews in Rome "For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for THE HOPE OF ISRAEL, I AM HOUND WITH THIS CHAIN.
Paul refers to the Hope of Israel 4 times in Acts.
1. In Acts 23:6 he mentions the Hope as being resurrection
2. In Acts 24:15 he mentions the hope as being resurrection
3. In Acts 26:6-8 He mentions the hope as being resurrection
4. In Acts 28:20-23 he mentions the Hope in connection with the Kingdom of God.
The Hope of Israel was to be resurrected into the kingdom of God, as a matter of fact, the only way they could get into the Kingdom of God was by resurrection.
That's exactly what Paul is showing the Corinthians in I Cor. 15 . In that chapter he is showing them how to get into the Kingdom of God, and guess what he told them had to happen for them to get in ? They had to be resurrected and changed. WHY? Because in vs. 50 he said:
"Now this I say; brethren, that flesh and blood- cannot inherit the Kingdom-of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
And in vs. 51 he told them they would all be changed, and the change would take place in resurrection. ICor. 15 and I Thess. 4 is the hope of Israel. The hope of Israel was resurrection into the Kingdom of God, which is exactly what Paul is writing about in this chapter.
You say: "How did Gentiles in that church end up with Israel's Hope?" Because in the Acts period, they were grafted into Israel the good olive tree, according to Rom.11:17. And being grafted into the tree, they partook of the fatness of the olive tree. The fatness of the olive tree were the blessings and promises made to the fathers, who were the root of the tree - Rom.15:2'7. And one of those blessings and promises WAS THEIR HOPE OF RESURRECTION.
BEFORE THE HOPE OF MATT. 24 TAKES PUCE THERE WILL BE A FALLING AWAY, THAT IS APOSTACY, AND THE REVELATION OF THE ANTI-CHRIST.
In Matt. 24:11 Jesus said
"Many false prophets shall rise and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (A reference to apostasy )
And in vs. 15 He said,
'Men ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the Holy place..." (A reference to the anti-Christ Dan. 11:31)
In vs. 24 he said
"there would be false Christ's; and false prophets, and shall chew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (A reference to the Devil working miracles )
PAUL SAID THE EXACT SAME THING WOULD TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE RESURRECTION OF I THESS. 4 AND I COR. 15 WOULD TAKE PLACE.
In II Thess. 2:1 he wrote:
"Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, anti by our gathering together unto him; "that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled , neither by spirit, nor by word, nor as by letter as from us that the day of Christ is at hand."
The day of Christ in vs.2 , was his coming and their gathering together unto him in vs. 1. The Thessalonians were "all shook up" because somebody wrote then a false letter and told them it was at hand, that is, it had already taken place. Which, if it were true, they were left behind to face the wrath of IIThess.l:8-9. So Paul to assure them that He had not come, tells them in vs.3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not came, except there came a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, skewing himself that he is God.
( He also mentions the Devil working miracles in verse 9 )
The point is the Hope of I Thess. 4 which was the Day of Christ, would not take place until AFTER a period of apostasy and the revelation of the Anti-Christ , just like the resurrection in Matt. 24.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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When a man goes up against the doctrines and traditions of men that have been believed and taught for many years , he will find himself alone on the outside looking in . His own friends will turn against him and turn away from him and accuse him of being a trouble maker. Thats what happened to Paul , but he was willing to suffer abuse if that is what it took to show and reveal the truth to people that God revealed to him.
It would be much easier to just go along with the religious system and preach their "rapture" as being the hope of the church today for the majority do. It would be much easier to just ignore and even deny what Paul said about the hope in I Thess.4 and I Cor.15 like everybody else is doing. But when God changes his program and replaces it with something new and better, it is wrong to go on preaching what He changed.
In other words, if God revealed a hope to Paul in his prison epistles that is different and better than the one he wrote about in his Acts epistles wouldn't it be wrong to go on teaching the hope in the Acts epistles as the hope of the church today ???
Well, in the apostles prison epistles, Paul never once spoke about the Lord coming. Instead he is given further revelation bringing a better hope. The new hope revealed after Acts is that the church appears/manifest with Christ *to make complete* when He manifests.
The word epiphaneia, its origin is found in the verb phaino, which originally had to do with the action of throwing or shining light upon, and in course of time came to mean "to shine forth." By an easy transition this word was applied to the appearing of men and things; so, as a rule, when this word is found in the New Testament, it usually means "to appear." This will be seen in Matt. 1:20; 2:1; and 13:26. However, it should be noted that this is a later meaning of phaino, and when it began to be used this way, it did not lose its earlier meaning. This will be found in numerous occurrences where phaino means "to shine." See Matt. 24:21; John 1:5; 5:35; Phil. 2:15 and Rev. 1:16.
From the word phaino another word developed by the addition of the accelerative prefix epi. This is the verb epiphaino which is certainly a much stronger word. And in order to express this strength, it would be much better to use the words "blaze forth" in certain occurrences. This verb appears four times in the New Testament where it is very weakly translated and treated as if it meant the same as phaino. A concordance is given.
Luke 1 : 79-to give light to them that sit in darkness
Acts 27 :20-sun nor stars in many days appeared
Titus 2: ll-bringeth salvation hath appeared
Titus 3 :4-love of God our Savior toward man appeared
From the above references it can be seen that some form of the idea, "to blaze forth," is in all these occurrences.
It is from the verb epiphaino that the noun epiphaneia developed. This is found six times in Scripture as follows:
2 Thess. 2 :8-with the brightness of His coming
1 Tim. 6: 14-the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Tim. 1: lO-the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ
2 Tim. 4:1-at His appearing and His kingdom
2 Tim. 4:8-them also that love His appearing
Titus 2: 13-the glorious appearing of the great God
The inadequacy of the translations displayed above is apparent. They also treat epiphaneia as if it were derived from the verb phaino. It could be better translated "blazing forth" in each occurrence. However, it is evident from both New Testament and Classical Greek usage that this word was developed to express a very special idea, so much so, that it can be said that, while epiphaneia means a "blazing forth," it always carries in it the idea of a favorable intervention.
In the first occurrence of epiphaneia (2 Thess. 2:8), it is used with the word parousia; but we should not conclude that the epiphaneia of this passage and that of Titus 2:13 are the same. This tells us that the man of sin, that wicked one, will be destroyed by the blazing forth (favorable intervention) of His parousia.
The most important occurrence of epiphaneia to the present day believer is the one found in Titus 2:13, where in the King James Version it reads: "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ."
This is not the epiphaneia of His parousia. This is where Paul speaks of the church which is His body blazing forth in glory when Christ blazes forth in glory. This takes place, as it is written, far above all, in the heavenly places.
Those of the earthly kingdom hope of Israel will see Him coming in glory. The church body will simply appear when Christ appears in the heavenly places.
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
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Paul taught the pre-trib rapture. I believe in it.
You are free to believe what you wish. That I have no problems with at all. Me, I am waiting for the Blessed Hope. When the trumpet sounds, I am out of here.
betty
Just a side note. It has been said that Jesus is coming back for those who are looking for Him. You might want to go back and do some more studying.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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Hi there Gma,
Could you please quote a few verses depicting that Paul taught the 'blessed hope' is a 'pre-trib rapture' at the sound of which 'trump'.
Thanks in advance.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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Myself, definately up for more studying. How 'bout them verses?
Where would be the best place for me to start, in order to see Christ coming back 2 more times? As I'm afraid I must've missed those verses somehow.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
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going to borrow from my friend:
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Icon 2 posted July 24, 2005 10:11 AM Profile for Watcher Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote http://members.aol.com/RSy2717/pretrib.html
50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture
Historical Doctrine of Imminency
1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.
2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.
3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries.
In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation.
Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.
4. The exhortation to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1Thes 4:1 is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.
5. We are exhorted to look for the "Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.
6. Again, we are to "purify ourselves" in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.
7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.
Nature of the Church
( Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church .)
8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
9. The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."
10. The Church will not be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)
11. The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Rev. 3:10)
12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).
13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)
14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)
15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.
16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.
17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.
18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.
The Work of the Holy Spirit
19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.
20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the "lawless one" is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.
21. The "falling away" in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.
22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)
The Hermeneutical Argument
23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truely literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.
24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God's dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming
25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.
26. The "four and twenty elders" in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.
27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.
28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).
29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.
30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.
31. The Judgment of Israel (Ez 20:34-3 occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.
Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.
32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.
33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.
34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.
35. At the time of the rapture, the world is not judge for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.
36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.
37. The rapture is immanent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.
38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.
39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.
40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.
41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.
The Nature of the Tribulation
42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience.
43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deut 4:29-30. Jer 30:4-11, Dan 9:24-27, Dan 12:1-2)
44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.
47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.
48. The Unity of Daniel's 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.
49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by "The Lord Himself."
50. Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come ... He who testifieth of these things saith
"Yea, I come quickly, AMEN. COME LORD JESUS.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews ll:1)
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
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Amen Betty and Watcher!!!!!!!!
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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Revelation be unto you all only through the LORD Jesus Christ.
Thank you for the effort. I have some questions and comments.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Clearly Christ The Lord Jesus believes the elect will be here after Satan arrives showing himself to be God, as per 2 Thes 2.
4. Yes, they were to comfort one another that their loved ones would rise first. That was the comfort. Read the subject and the object and follow it through the passages till it stops. You can see it.
6. His coming was immenent, every apostle preached the soon coming of the Lord, all that was waiting was Israel's national repentance. They failed, their kingdom hope was postponed, now in abayance.
7. the verses please. which church?
8. the dead rise first, then those who are alive and remain. when? the last trump. pretty simple, aye?
9. NOW....What John said to the Pharisees and Saducees when they came to his baptizm makes perfect sense.
"WHO" has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" Mat. 3:7
He knew that they hadn't heard from God so he asked them, "WHO" warned you?
They didn't want to repent from their sins..They wanted to escape from the wrath
to come.
They see the kingdom of God but won't enter in. Since they won't enter in they
can't hear God's voice so they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears.
And when they hear from the teacher what seems to make sense they lay hold
of it and proclaim it to be truth. What you end up with when you do that is doctrines of devils and commandments of men.
They have fear within themselves of God's judgment and wrath not knowing the
Love of God which casts out all fear.
The true Body of Christ welcomes the tribulation. Though it will mean physical
death to many of us and will be a time of trial in our faith we KNOW that our
sufferings will be that which has been through the ages NOT the wrath of God.
We also know that it is a time of His vengence against the ungodly and His judgments are righteous.
The tribulation is the call that the bridegroom is coming. Those that have been
wise will have enough oil to make it through. The tribulation is the night that no
man can work. We are marked with His seal before it starts and will be protected by His power from His wrath. To be killed for His namesake is not His wrath. To be
crucified, beheaded, or stoned for His namesake is NOT his wrath. His wrath is
for the children of disobedience.
Because of envy Jesus was delivered up to be crucified. We will be delivered up
to death for the same reason.
The world doesn't have what we have and they refuse to repent from their sins
to get it so they kill us.
There will be many that will be offended and they will fall away.
We will be refined through persecution and be made spotless and without wrinkle.
We will see Him just as He is because we will be like Him.
There will be those that are so wraped up in their own misery that they won't be
Watching and Praying. They will still be seeking to keep their life and they will lose
it.
I will repeat it one last time for any Pharisees that are readin this.
WE ARE NOT APPOINTED UNTO GOD'S WRATH AND WE WILL NOT SUFFER FROM
IT DURING THE TRIBULATION. We will suffer but NOT by His wrath.
10. the Day of the Lord is not another name for the great trib, if it is, post the verses!!!
11. You didn't read any of this stuff did you, you just copied someone's bogus work. tisk tisk.
12. worthy to flee in that verse does not mean worthy to fly away, so why change the Holy Word of God? Besides, He was specifically speaking to His disciples, and they all were murdered. That is the example in Rev too, beheaded are they who came out of "great tribulation" !!! read it for yourself.
13. Agreed, God delivered them through their tribulation. He was right there with them, they weren't raptured away, they were protected.
Do you not believe God is able to protect His children without flying them away, which He states He is against such teachers who teach that?
14. Joh 14:3 doesn't say any such thing, it says Christ must be killed, so that He can come again to receive them, His people Israel.
21. Please show me where the subject changes from being decieved to leaving the planet.
22. The saints are slain, yep, how is that if they are raptured and not here?
25. Nope, sorry, 2Co 5:2 speaks about the desire for resurrection, saying nothing of what you posted. nevertheless, everyone, believers and non alike: Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Paul was not addressing believers, they didn't believe him.
26. Again, it doesn't say that, you just decided for yourself what God means, doesn't God mean what He says, or do we have instruction to fix His Word because of His lack of ability to get it right?
27. Agreed. There are more than one resurrection, but we do read they all happen by 'rank'. This part of the subject should only be approached after one is well grounded in God's understanding. Examp, we are considered dead, and so are those resurrected unto that time of teaching...
28. That is a Hebraism, which is much beyond the present discussion, not relavent to pre trib rapture at all.
29. Yes, the Lord will seperate the goats/tare from the wheat/sheep AT HIS COMING.
31. All judgment comes after His coming silly.
47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15.
Now I've seen some mighy stretching and bending and omissions to get to one point,but that is just wrong wrong wrong.
What trumpet was that again?
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
But if you have some verses which show that Christ comes to the earth 2 more times, please do share them with us, as for me, I have not read them and do desire to be shown where the verses are that speak of any rapture whatsoever. I know quite a few which speak of resurrection, but none which speak of rapture.
ps
the subject in 2 Thes 2 is being deceived. the apostle says 2 things must come before the day of the Lord, one is a great departure from the subject *truth*, and this is in addition to that man of sin, the son of perdition being revealed *Satan*.
this does, of course, present the same theme Christ presents in Mat24:15 quoted above, when the abomination which makes desolate stands in the holy place...that he should even deceive the very elect, if it were possible, so the time is cut short...
Christ:
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints
Personally, I can't recall even one place where anyone was saved from tribulation. On the other hand, I can recall so very many places where one is saved through tribulation.
While speaking about the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13 Jesus said,
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to
the reapers, Gather ye together 'FIRST' the tares, and bind them in bundles to
burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Mat. 13:30
Then in verses 37 through 43 he further explains the harvest. Verses 41-43 says,
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather 'out of his kingdom' all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them
into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 'THEN' shall the
righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to
hear, let him hear. Mat 13:41-43
One of you please explain to me how Jesus has the tares being harvested first and
the 'rapture' has the saints being harvested first.
also please explain to me this verse in Proverbs.
The righteous shall 'NEVER' be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
Proverbs 10:30
Allow me to point out that when I post verses, it is to glorify God, to show where He has stated His understanding. When I ask questions, I am likewise seeking His understanding. All of man's wisdom is but folly. Neither I nor you or anyone else's interpretation is relevant. The only measure we have for truth is the Cannon of Scripture. If you have any verses which state the Lord comes multiple more times, and that the 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet, please share. Just the verses please. If you know something of grammer, Greek, idiom, and Figures of Speech, feel free to help draw out the meaning of the actual words used, but save yourself from typing any philosphy, I only need the verses, and I need them in the context which God has given them by His chosen vessels throught the Holy Spirit.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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Truth through Jesus Christ our LORD be unto you.
Please permit a reading of how the Lord uses the word in question for the 'falling away',
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to ''forsake'' Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
These are the only two occurances of the word as it stands. I shall be using the Biblical principal set forth as follows:
The Biblical Q & A regarding study habits the Lord sets forth for our learning:
Isa 28:9
1. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and
2. whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
The Biblical answer:
them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
And how do they who are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast study the Word of God?
Isa 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah
Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
I am comfortable with the English tranlation of apostasia being depart, or departure, as it is sometimes argued.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
We probably agree that the subject is given as the day of the Lord, coupled with the warning about being deceived. Lets look at how the word is rendered by the Holy Spirit in Acts:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to ''forsake'' Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
The subject seems to be that Paul is falling away from the OT doctrine. In Thess2, 2. 3, we have a like subject, that of falling away being contrasted with the immediate forethought of being deceived.
I see nowhere that the earth or the heaven is in view. Only deception about the day of the Lord and His parousia.
Be not deceived
that day shall not come
except there come a departure first
and
that man of sin be revealed
the son of perdition
Two things are immediately contrasted with the day of the Lord and the warning pertaining to being deceived.
departure
and
Satan arriving defacto
These two things, says the apostle must come before the Lord returns.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
I don't know why we people have a tendency to get all crazy when reading the Bible, the words are God-Breathed. They interpret themselves. Surely if the Lord had meant for us to learn He is coming for a 2nd, a 3rd or more advents, He speaks clearly through His sent ones, the stewards of His Holy Word.
If some were to leave the planet, why does He expressly pray 'not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil'.
then give further instructions to take on the whole armor of God *the Bible = Him* that we may be able to stand in that evil day *of Satan showing Himself to be God*.
There are so very very many questions, and so far, not one rapture person has given a Biblical answer for any of them. Not without taking the intirety of the context away from God's Holy Word, not to my knowledge so far.
Really though, it wouldn't matter if there were a thousand trumpets, Paul says it is at the last trumpet. Last in the Greek means the furthest one out from the preceeding ones.
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psa 118:9 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
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Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
this is speaking of the Jews. When they see the
abomination of desolation, they will realize that the anti-Christ is not the Messaih but the devil. Then they will flee to a place God has prepared for them.
Posted by Adv.Christian (Member # 3453) on
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Thank you everybody, this is a significant help to me and I truly do appreciate it. Now I have another question along the same line; given the belief of rapture, where is the believer at death? As always my love to all and May God bless this forum and its members.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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I believe our souls go straight to heaven upon death.
During the Rapture our earthly bodies become glorified and meet Jesus in the sky to unite with our souls in heaven, so that we can be prepared as the Bride to come back to earth with Jesus for His Second Coming.
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
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2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
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It isn't the soul that sleeps at death, but the body that goes to sleep. Listed below are some verses that disprove "soul sleep."
Phil. 1:21-24--"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain…But I am hardpressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."
Paul says when he dies it is gain, that he departs, and that he is with Christ which is very much better. If Paul believed in "soul sleep," then he should have wished that he could live for over a hundred years on earth so he could keep ministering. But the benefit of dying is to be immediately with Christ, which is "very much better" than remaining on earth. He couldn't have said this if he believed in "soul sleep." Paul also used the word "departure" (the departing of his spirit to heaven) in 2 Tim. 4:6, referring to his death.
2 Cor. 5:6,8-9--"…while at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
"Paul is again speaking of his inner man leaving his body at death to be with the Lord. He also said he preferred to be absent from his body so he could be with Jesus. Notice he said we could only be "at home or absent," not in an in-between state like soul sleep.
Matt. 22:31-32--"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
"Jesus revealed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead, but living. Their bodies had died, but their souls and spirits were alive awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.
Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise.
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
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Before Jesus came, where did one's soul go after death?
Before Christ's death on the cross at Calvary, the souls of the dead went to Hades, a supernatural place somewhere in the heart of the earth. Hades has two compartments, the abode of the lost called in the Bible "torment," and the other side, the place of the saints of God called Paradise, and also referred to as "Abraham's Bosom."
When Jesus gave up His Spirit to death, He went into the Paradise side of Hades and "took captivity captive." This means He took all the souls of the saints who had died to that point to be with God the Father in Heaven. The Paradise side of Hades is now empty. The torment side today holds all souls of people who rejected Christ's salvation, and who have died to this point in human history. People who are saved by believing in Christ today, and who die, now go directly to God, the Father, in Heaven.
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40).
"Because You will not leave my soul in Hades, or allow Your Holy One to see decay" (Acts 2:27).
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" (Eph. 4:8-9).
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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let me say this first, I have asked several questions and you are shrugging them off as if those Scriptures do not exist. There is not one place where any rapture is spoken of period. It is a manmade theme based upon words which God has not used. Is that anyway seek the Lord? Just make stuff up that is not written?
Additionally, there is not one place where it is spoken of as the believers hope. How could it, it isn't Scriptural save for the fact that God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls?
quote:
this is speaking of the Jews. When they see
One of the many inconsistancies of the rapture proposal, is that your defense is no, that is written for the Jews. Well, so was all the epistles written during the Acts, the very ones you claim speaks of a pre trib rapture, as each letter during Acts being written always to the Jew first. Those gentile believers partook of Israel's spiritual things. The kingdom hope, and His coming as He so left wass the hope of Israel.
To use the double standard, to accept one thing to the Jews when it suits a preintended purpose is no way to steward the Holy Word of God, for in so doing the word of truth becomes just an amalgamation by imagination,an utter disregard to the clear and plain language set forth throughout Scripture.
It is not my intention to be overly rudy at all, only to state things in a clear and discernable manner. If we desire to rightly divide the word of truth, then we ought not pull out single verses when we need them for our own understanding. Rather, the simplicity which is in Christ Jesus dictates that the precepts be kept together at all times. Any of us can take one verse here and there and build any doctrine we like. Is it not best to acknowledge where God divides? Let us not bring together that which the Lord has made seperate. Let us pray that we receive the Lord's understanding, for that is why it is written.
Perhaps this Berian study will help, as it is simple, not bringing the Greek grammar to bear upon those who are without it:
Some see the fact that He will come to the Mount of Olives. Others see an added facet of His coming, that is His coming in the air where some saints will be "caught up...to meet the Lord in the air." Certain orthodoxy only sees the former; the more fundamental sees both the former and the latter. The latter referred to as the "rapture", which incidentally is not a Scriptural wordand cannot find its place in the words "that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep". NO, those who are alive when Christ returns to the earth can in no way prevent those who are dead rising first. The dead shall rise first.
Nevertheless, there are two phases or aspects of the second coming of the Lord.
Both phases are related to the "coming of the Lord." It is the "coming" of the Lord that both aspects will be completed. When the Lord Jesus Christ was received up into heaven two angels stood by the disciples and said,
"...Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
This definite statement links the prophecy of Zechariah 14:4 and the second "coming" of the Lord we read in Zechariah,
"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
The Lord Jesus Christ will return again to this earth from the point that He left, the Mount of Olives (see Acts 1:12). It should be noted that throughout the Pentecostal dispensation this was in view. In the third chapter of Acts, Peter tells the men of Israel that if they would change their attitude concerning Jesus Christ of Nazareth God would send Him back from heaven and the long awaited Kingdom would be restored to Israel (see Acts 3:19-26).
For this Kingdom to be instituted Jesus Christ must of necessity return to this earth. So with the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles it is seen that the burden is the return of the Lord from heaven to earth. This is referred to as His "coming". That is, He leaves heaven and comes to earth. This is what the saints looked for during the Acts period.
It must be stated that the "coming" is intimately related to the Kingdom. This fact was in view all through the Acts. The Kingdom hope penetrated from Acts 2 clear through Acts 28. Along with the Kingdom hope goes the return of the Lord, which is His second "coming". All of the epistles written during the Acts period relate to His "coming".
However, after Acts 28:28, we find that the Apostle writes seven other epistles and there is a very obvious omission of the reference to the "coming of the Lord". This study purposes to show that if words have any meaning and are to be studied for the purpose of God making known to us His truth then we must recognize that in Paul's latter epistles he makes no reference to the "coming of the Lord". There seems to be an obvious omission of the words "come" and "coming" in the last seven letters written by Paul.
The last seven epistles make known present truth. They are Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, 1Timothy, Titus, and 2 Timothy. In these letters the Apostle makes known the present calling of the Church of the One Body. It is here also we learn what is the One Hope (Eph.4:4) of our calling. It is not mentioned as being connected with any movement on the part of the Lord at all. But rather it is connected with His manifestation in Glory. The Scripture speaks of it as His "appearing".
Before Acts 28:28 the hope anticipated by believers was that of the "coming (i.e. back to earth) of the Lord." After Acts 28:28 the hope that the believers should anticipate is that of the Lord's "appearing" in the Glory "far above all heavens" (Eph. 4:10). However, failure of Christians to rightly divide the Word of Truth has resulted in confusion as to what the real hope of the believer is in this dispensation of the grace of God. They seem to cling to the hope that was set aside that is not even available today. The Pentecostal believers were to look for the coming of the Lord. But when the dispensational crisis occurred and Israel became "Lo-ammi" (Hos.1:9 i.e.not God's people) at Acts 28:28, the return of the Lord became impossible. He is no longer waiting Israel's repentance, but now, after Acts 28:28, He is enthroned as the Highly Exalted One, who is Head over all things to the Church which is His Body, the fullness of Him Who filleth all in all (Eph.1:22-23). In the capacity as the Head of the Church which is His body, He remains as such until such time as the Church is received up into glory and there manifested with Him in the heavenly places.
The Lord Jesus Christ will pick up His dealings with Israel again. At that time His return to earth will be the hope of the awaiting Israel as well as those believing Gentiles who will be counted as the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29)
Many Christians who ignore the dispensational dividing line of Acts 28:28 confuse the two hopes and make them one. We are clearly told that in this dispensation there is but ONE HOPE (Eph.4:4). Those who rightly divide the Word of Truth recognize the difference between the "appearing" of the Lord in Glory and the "coming" of the Lord.
The New Testament books written during the Acts of the Apostles all speak of the return of the Lord. The Lord descending from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trump of God (1 Thess. 4:14-17) all speak about the Lord "coming". For Him to "descend from heaven" he must leave heaven and "come". That was the hope of the believers during the period of time covered by the Book of Acts. Notice the references set forth in the books written during that period. You will note the references to "come" and "coming".
REFERENCES TO HIS 2ND COMING IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - "COME" and "COMING"
1 Cor 1:7 - "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Cor 4:5 - "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,..."
1 Cor 11:26 - For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.
1 Cor 15:23 - "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming".
2 Thess. 1:10 - When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe..."
1 Thess. 2:19 - "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"
1 Thess. 3:13 - "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."
1 Thess. 4:15 - "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."
1 Thess. 5:23 - "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thess. 2:1 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him..."
2 Thess. 2:8 - " And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"
James 5:7 - "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord..."
James 5:8 - "Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."
2 Pet 1:16 - "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
2 Pet 3:4 - "And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."
REFERENCES TO HIS 2ND COMING IN THE GOSPELS - "COME AND "COMING"
Mat 16:27 - "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Mat 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mat 24:3 - "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Mat 24:30 - "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Mat 25:31 - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"
Mark 13:26 - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
John 14:3 - "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
John 14:28 - "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
Luke 19:13 - "And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come."
Luke 21:27 - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."
Throughout the period covered by the Acts of the Apostles believers anticipated the return of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven. Some would be changed, "put on immortality", and be "caught up" to meet the returning Lord in the air. They would accompany Him back to the Mount of Olives. Paul entertained his hope during the Acts period (see 1 Thess. 4:4-17 and 1Cor. 15:51-55).
The Lord also promised the Twelve that they would to sit upon 12 thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel when He comes from heaven to the earth to set up His Kingdom (Mat 19:28).
However, when Israel was set aside God ushered in a new dispensation (Acts 28:28) and with it the Apostle Paul learned that the new out-calling's destiny was that of being received up into Glory in the very heaven of heavens far above all. Connected with this new calling is "the appearing'. Search the Scriptures written after Acts 28:28 and you will find no mention of the return of the Lord. When describing the hope of the Church which is His body Paul does not choose to use the words "come" or "coming". Rather he chooses, under the inspiration of God, to use the words "appear" and "appearing."
If words that the Holy Ghost uses to teach by mean anything then there is much we can learn. We learn that the believer in the dispensation of the grace of God (Eph. 3:2) looks for something other than the COMING OF THE LORD. The believer's hope is now tied in with the "appearing of the Lord" in Glory.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
That is, when the Lord Jesus Christ appears in the heavenly places we will appear with Him there. He is presently hid in God in the heavenlies. But when He is manifested in the highest glory then will the Church of the One Body be manifested with Him in that sphere. Not in the lower atmosphere, or in the clouds but "far above all" (Eph.1:21), "far above all heavens"(Eph.4:10)
"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing (not His coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Tim. 6:14)
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing (not His coming) and his kingdom" (2Tim.4:1)
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing (not His coming)" (2Tim. 4:8)
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" (Titus 2:13).
It should be clearly apparent that there is indeed a difference in the words "come", "coming" and "appear", "appearing". The first two sentences of the Lord Jesus Christ leaving a place, namely the heavenlies, and going to another, namely the lower atmosphere. There some saints will meet Him and will accompany Him back to earth, namely the Mount of Olives. While the other set of words do not intimate any movement on the part of Christ, but rather simply a manifestation (i.e. appearing visibly to the heavenly creatures from whom He is now veiled off). When He "appears" to those creatures in heavenly places (i.e. in Glory) the Church of this dispensation will "appear with Him" in that sphere "far above all heavens." For His Church of the One Body has been demonstrating to those creatures the Lord's manifold wisdom(Eph.3:10).
We are instructed to "rightly divide" and to "approve things that are excellent." The two hopes must then be rightly divided. One belongs to the Pentecostal church, the other to the Church, the Body of Christ. The two hopes must be distinguished in order to approve the things more excellent (Phil 1:10, Rom. 2:8).
Only the Church which is His Body has the promise of enjoying heavenly places. No other company of God's redeemed has such a glorious privilege, for heavenly places is not just a place of splendor and magnificence. God is the Father of the place of Glory (Eph.1:17). It can truly be said that Glory will be the future dwelling place of the Church of the One Body. The distinctions are clearly drawn in the Word of God between the "coming" and the "appearing." May the Father of Glory give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation and enlightened eyes to see what is the hope of the calling of the Church over which Christ Jesus is the Head.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Like I said, my hope is in the pre-trib rapture. You believe what makes you comfortable. If I had come to the conclusion on my own, I would think twice about it. But I have done 4 studies at 2 different denomantion. I do not believe that Southern Baptist and Assembly of God have both got it wrong. I am at peace with my belief. May you at peace with your own belif.
God bless you,
betty
The rapture is mention in the Vulagte Bible.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
And peace be unto you IN Christ as well.
quote:
If I had come to the conclusion on my own, I would think twice about it.
Perhaps my questions are too hard. Let me see if I can get you to answer another way:
1. Please show who the Lord comes for during the pre trib.
2. Are they resurrected before the dead, the dead who shall rise first?
3. Why are the elect of God having to remain?
4. Why did Christ pray that none be taken out of the world, rather that they are protected from the evil day?
5. Why are we to put on the whole armor of God to stand in that evil day if we aren't going to be here?
6. When we read that God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls in Ez13, how does the rapture believers avoid God being against that?
7. Are all of you going to disappear, the Lord taking you bodily? or kill the body first?
8. Please share the verses that declare Christ coming multiple more times, specifically before He manifest at the last trump.
9. Please explain why you use Israel's hope and the words to Israel as a rapture for the church you belong to, but ignore ALL verses that plainly teach contrarwise to the rapture.
10. Please do share the verses stating the exaclty when the rapture occurs. I have trouble understanding when people just make up words and pretend they are in the Bible, I rather need God's word please.
11. Do you have those verses stating your quotes of your 'blessed hope' being the 'pre-trib rapture'? I would really like to study those verses please.
12. Which church gets raptured? Where are the verses detailing these things?
13. In 2 Thes 2, where it says that day shall not come till there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, how is it that Christ isn't going to come until after He comes? Is our God doubleminded, I don't think so!
Here are some different churches, BIBLICALLY, Appendix 186 From The Companion Bible.:
1. The Greek word ekklesia means assembly, or a gathering of called-out ones. It is used seventy times in the Septuagint for the Hebrew kahal (from which latter we have our word call), rendered in Septuagint by sunagoge and ekklesia.1 This latter word occ. in New Testament 115 times (36 in plural), and is always translated "church" except in Acts 19:32, 39, 41 (assembly).
2. kahal is used
(1) of Israel as a People called out from the rest of the nations (Genesis 28:3);
(2) of the tribal council of Simeon and Levi, those called out from each tribe (Genesis 49:6); (3) of an assembly of Israelites called out for worship or any other purpose (Deuteronomy 18:16; 31:30. Joshua 8:35. Judges 21:8);
(4) any assembly of worshippers as a congregation (Psalm 22:22, 25. Ekklesia in Matthew 16:18; (18:17. 1Corinthians 14:19, 35, etc.);
(5) the equivalent ekklesia of separate assemblies in different localities (Acts 5:11; 8:3. 1 Corinthians 4:17, etc.);
(6) of the guild or "union" of Ephesian craftsmen (Acts 19:32, 41), and verse 39 (the lawful assembly). Finally, the special Pauline usage of ekklesia differs from all these. Other assemblies consisted of called-out ones from Jews, or from Gentiles (Acts 18:22), but this new body is of called-out ones from both.
3. Our word "church" 2 has an equally varied usage. It is used
(1) of any congregation;
(2) of a particular church (England, or Rome, etc);
(3) of the ministry of a church;
(4) of the building in which the congregation assembles;
(5) of Church as distinct from Chapel;
(6) of the church as distinct from the world, and lastly, it is used in the Pauline sense, of THE BODY OF CHRIST.
4. It is of profound importance to distinguish the usage of the word in each case, else we may be reading "the church which was in the wilderness" into the Prison Epistles, although we are expressly told that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the "church which is His body". And when our Lord said "On this rock I will build my church" (Matthew 16:18), those who heard His words could not connect them with the "mystery" which was "hid in God" and had not then been made known to the sons of men. Confusion follows our reading what refers to Israel in the past or the future into the present dispensation. Readers are referred to the various notes in the connexions.
5. The word where qualified by other terms occurs thus: -
Church of God;
Acts 20:28. 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32; 11:16 (plural), 22; 15:9. 2 Corinthians 1:1. Galatians 1:13. 1 Thessalonians 2:14 (plural).
2 Thessalonians 1:4 (plural). 1 Timothy 3:5, 15 (c. of the living God).
Churches of Christ; Romans 16:16.
Church in .. house; Romans 16:5. 1 Corinthians 16:19. Colossians 4:15. Philemon 2.
The Church of the One Body, the calling that goes back before the foundation of the world, and ascends to the position ‘far above all’ where Christ sits. This church is entirely disassociated from all previous companies, having no relation with Israel, Abraham or New Covenant, but filling the great dispensational parenthesis of Israel’s blindness, which fell on that nation in Acts 28. The status, calling and constitution of this Church can be gathered by reading Ephesians and Colossians, remembering as the reading progresses, ever to ‘try the things that differ’.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away
Im my Bible, it is the many who will be deceived, I take it yours is different?
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Perhaps my questions are too hard. Let me see if I can get you to answer another way:
(perhaps you are making fun of me. It doesn't matter. when the rapture happens you can apologize to me then.
1. Please show who the Lord comes for during the pre trib.
The Church, the bride of Christ.
2. Are they resurrected before the dead, the dead who shall rise first?
The dead in Christ will rise first followed by those alive who will be changed from a corruptible body in to a glorified body.
3. Why are the elect of God having to remain?
The Jews who have not accepted Jesus as Savior will go through the tribulation.
This is a part of the curse they put on themselves when they said let Jesus’ blood be on our children
4. Why did Christ pray that none be taken out of the world, rather that they are protected from the evil day?
Because when the Jews do accept Jesus, they will be going through the tribulation, the evil day.
5. Why are we to put on the whole armor of God to stand in that evil day if we aren't going to be here?
We put on the whole armor of God because we face tribulation today but not The tribulation of the end time.
6. When we read that God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls in Ez13, how does the rapture believers avoid God being against that?
The verse:
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Here it is in the Living Word:
20 "And so the Sovereign Lord says: I am against all your magic charms, which you use to ensnare my people like birds. I will tear them from your arms, setting my people free like birds set free from a cage.
We do not hunt people down and make them fly in the rapture. The rapture will not be done by magic but my a miracle of God. Did God not take Elijah up to Heaven?
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
7. Are all of you going to disappear, the Lord taking you bodily? or kill the body first?
We will disappear. Even the New Age Religion is teaching of a time people will disappear from earth. They are just teaching that aliens will take us, when the Bible says Jesus will come for us.
8. Please share the verses that declare Christ coming multiple more times, specifically before He manifest at the last trump.
In previous post I showed that the rapture and second coming is different. In the rapture we meet Jesus in the air. In the Second Coming, we will be behind Jesus on white horses. In the rapture Jesus comes as a deliverer but in the Second Coming , He will return as a conqueror.
9. Please explain why you use Israel's hope and the words to Israel as a rapture for the church you belong to, but ignore ALL verses that plainly teach contrarwise to the rapture.
I know of no verses that say that Israel’s hope and the Church is the same.
10. Please do share the verses stating the exaclty when the rapture occurs. I have trouble understanding when people just make up words and pretend they are in the Bible, I rather need God's word please.
A form of the word rapture appears in the Vulgate Bible
J. Dwight Pentcost sums up the mystery like this: "The Church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan. The Church is a mystery unrevealed in the Old Testament. This present mystery age intervenes within the program of God for Israel because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah at His first advent. This mystery program must be completed before God can resume His program with Israel and bring it to completion..."
"...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord..." Here we have another condition given to those who are alive at the time of the Rapture. Those who remain are those who are still remaining in Christ and have kept their faith. These will be caught up to meet Jesus. Our Lord is coming back for a prepared people; that is, only for those who are ready. Those who have back-slid will not be raptured. Those who are separated from sin will be raptured. Paul gave the warning in his letter to the Corinthians. (IICorinthians 6:14-18.)
11. Do you have those verses stating your quotes of your 'blessed hope' being the 'pre-trib rapture'? I would really like to study those verses please.
1Th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
12. Which church gets raptured? Where are the verses detailing these things?
Anyone who is washed in the blood of Jesus and looking for His return will go up
13. In 2 Thes 2, where it says that day shall not come till there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, how is it that Christ isn't going to come until after He comes? Is our God doubleminded, I don't think so!
There is a verse that says that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the restrainer is removed, which will happen when the Church is raptured.
Betty
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
The risen Christ could have told of unknown glory, mysteries beyond the age times, but what did He do? He opened their eyes to the Scriptures, He opened the Book. It is written.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
1. verses please.
2. verses please. We are looking to teach me that there is a church which is pre trib raptured, remember?
3. You are saying it is the very elect of God who have the curses? What curses? Verses please.
4. Not what Christ said, Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
verses please. I am looking to receive God's understanding, His words. How can I make it more clear?
5. not in the end times? Better actually read it:
Eph 6:11,13
Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil...that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day
6. the Living Word, the Catholic Bible, just shop till you get one that says what you want, or that doesn't say what you don't wish to receive, is that instruction given in the Word of God, or church policy?
Did God...to heaven. Yes, Ecc12. 7, the spirit returns to God who gave it - None in heaven where Christ is Hid in God, for He is far above all - Have you read the verses stating that no man has entered heaven, but there are 3 that bear witness?
7. Being that new age satanic religeon is teaching it, doesn't that set off red flags? Verses please.
8. verses please.
9. I never said Israel’s hope and the Church is the same, in fact, if you bothered to read most anything I have posted, you would know that this is a false insinuation, but what about the actual question? verses please.
10. 2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
What does this have to do with leaving the planet while the elect stay and do the work of God? Are you aware that all this is OT quotes, speaking to what Israel had known and been trained for for centuries? If this is about a pre trib rapture, then please show the OT verses supporting it.
11. 1Th 4:15
If my eyes are not deceiving me, doesn't Paul say they would be caught up at the COMING of the Lord ?? And doesn't he mention his coming 10 times in his Acts epistles ?? And if Christ has already come one time, wouldn't this be his second coming ??
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES , HE COMES IN THE CLOUDS
Verse 30 says,
" They shall see the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN "
IN 1 THESS. AND I COR. 15 WHEN JESUS COMES HE COMES IN CLOUDS.
Verse 17 says,
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS , to meet the Lord in the air".
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS HE WILL. COME WITH ANGELS
Verse 31,
"And He shall send forth his ANGELS "
In 1 Thess. 4:16 it says,
" HE will descend from heaven with... the voice of the ARCHANGEL.
Michael is the archangel and the prince of Israel (DAN 12:1-2) and were Michael goes so does HIS ANGELS , read Rev. 12:7.
So you are using Israel's kingdom hope for the church when it suit you, as well as say these are different, even though they are really exactly the same, is that how we study the Bible?
12. so you are saying the very elect have to remain because they are not washing in the blood of Christ Jesus the Lord from heaven? That makes no since. God always makes since. verses please.
13. Verses please.
How am I to learn what the word of God says if you refuse to provide it? I think it is very harsh to dismiss and exchange the straightforward and clear verses which all depict the exact same event, the 2nd advent of the Lord Christ Jesus, to exchange what is clear and concise for what is not written save for in the 4th century where the RCC put the word rape in their Bible. But they pray to statues and dead people too, so it's not really much of a suprise is it?
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.
Psa 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
If it isn't written, then it isn't written.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
Adv. Christian,
Honesty behooves us to declare your imposed structure unacceptable in this forum.
I will give only one example-
David Reagan’s piece presented by Watcher states that the Old Testament saints are not in Christ.
What could be more dishonest?
AMH
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Old Testament Saints are not the Church. Watcher is indeed correct. AMH, don't seek to start trouble.
betty
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
You need to prove two things granny-
1 That I am the trouble maker
2 That Old Testament Saints are not part of Christ
Can you do that with Scripture?
AMH
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
I have an idea You AMH need to prove two things...
1.That you are not the trouble maker.
2 That Old Testament Saints are not part of Christ
Can you do that with Scripture AMH ?
I don't believe you can. ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
Watcher,
More sophistry?
Dispensationalism is more about salvation then anything else including the Second Coming.
If the Old Testament Saints are not in Christ then they have no place in heaven. That works out good for your philosophy. You need someone to occupy your fantasy land.
I was taught always to be polite. Give your scripture proving the inferiority of the Old Testament Saints-
Then I will give mine.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
Adv. Christian,
I sympathize with you on the scripture requirements. My point was that people decide what they want to believe then go about making the Bible agree with them.
Instead, we should accept the Bible for what it says, agree with it and let the rest go.
AMH
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
Okay...good day to you.
Israel occupies nearly four-fifths of the text of the Bible. As to primary application, the Church occupies slightly more than one-fifth of the Word.
The Divine Purpose
Every covenant, promise, and provision for Israel is earthly, and they continue as a nation on the earth when it is created anew.
Every covenant or promise for the Church is for a heavenly reality, and she continues in heavenly citizenship when the heavens are recreated.
Birth
Israelites become what they are by physical birth. Each one is begotten of human parents and their inheritance is transmitted by human generation.
Christians become what they are by spiritual birth. They are begotten directly by God and are therefore His legitimate offspring. Their inheritance is immediate in that each is a child of God.
Nationality
Israel belongs to the earth and to the world system. Though above all nations in Jehovah's reckoning, they are still in the world as one of its nations.
The Church is composed of all nations, including Israelites, and sustains no citizenship here, but instead the believers are strangers and pilgrims.
Ministry
Israel was appointed to exercise an influence over the nations of the earth, and this she will do perfectly in the coming Kingdom age. Previously she undertook no missionary work, and proclaimed no gospel. She maintained her self-centered worship-she faced inward toward the tabernacle or temple, and all her benevolence was consumed on her own worship.
Immediately upon her formation, the Church is constituted a foreign missionary society. It is her obligation to face outward, and to those of her company is given the task of evangelizing the people of the world in each generation.
The Death Of Christ
That nation which demanded the death of Christ and which said by their officials, "His Blood be on us, and on our children," is guilty of that death; yet they will be saved as a nation on the ground of that Sacrifice.
A present and perfect salvation to the praise of God is the portion of the Church through the offering of the Lamb of God.
The Father
To Israel God is known by His primary titles, but not as Father of the individual Israelite.
The Christian is actually begotten of God and has every right to address Him as Father.
Christ
To Israel, Christ is Messiah, Immanuel, and King.
To the Church, Christ is Saviour, Lord, Bridegroom, Head, and Life.
The Holy Spirit
Only in exceptional instances and for unusual service did the Holy Spirit come upon an Israelite, and He withdrew as freely as He came, when the purpose was accomplished.
The Christian is permanently indwelt by the Spirit; and actually, he is not saved apart from this relationship to the Spirit ( Rom. 8:9 ).
Governing Principle
For fifteen centuries the Law of Moses was Israel's rule of daily life ( Ps. 103:17 , 18 ).
Believers , members of the Body of Christ, being wholly perfected in Him, are under the beseechings and directions which grace provides.
Divine Enablement
The Law system provided no enabling power for its achievement. There was constant failure because of the weakness of "the flesh" to which it was addressed ( Rom. 8:3 ).
To the Church is provided, by the indwelling Spirit, enablement for every requirement. Paul could say, "Sin shall not have dominion over you"; the reasoning being, "Ye are not under law, but under grace" ( Rom. 6:14 ).
Christ's Return
He returns as King to gather Israel into the land ( Deut. 30:1-8 ; Jer. 23:7 , 8 ; Matt. 24:31 ).
The Lord Jesus returns for His Bride and takes her with Him into heavenly glory ( John 14:1-3 ).
Position
Though individuals in Israel attained to great usefulness, as did the prophets, priests, and kings; yet they never reached a higher distinction than that they were the servants of Jehovah.
Christians compose the Church, forever in Christ, members of the Body of Christ.
Christ's Earthly Reign
Israelites are appointed to be subjects of the King in His earthly kingdom.
Members of the Body of Christ are to reign with the King as His consort in that Kingdom.
Priesthood
Israel has a priesthood.
The Church is a priesthood
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
Please let me add:
When "salvation" is mentioned in the Old Testament you should note that it is in a fleshy tense as in saved from an enemy ... The Old Testament Saints held onto no promise of joining God in His Heaven, but rather the Messiah coming to Reign over Israel on earth.
Thank you! ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
Watcher,
Wait just one moment.
The earth is lower than heaven. For a time, we are made lower than the angels. If the Old Testament Saints are doomed to spending eternity on earth, even a new earth, then they are for ever inferior to the New Testament Saints.
What is the problem with your understanding?
AMH
Posted by Adv.Christian (Member # 3453) on
:
AMH forgive my ignorance, but I fail to be able to follow your 1st post. You stated quote:
Honesty behooves us to declare your imposed structure unacceptable in this forum.
Why do you choose to call it an “imposed structure”? I have at no time intended or attempted to use a forced composition on my part or anybody else’s. I also fail to understand how a request for assistance in this subject where it concerns understanding either, that of the doctrine, or of how other believers interpret this, would be “unacceptable in this forum” As I say I apologize for my ignorance and if I have offended anybody I am sorry and ask your forgiveness. As always my love to all and May God Bless.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
Adv. Christian,
I took it that you were serious about your guest posters using scripture to back up every claim, (an imposed structure) which I highly agree with. The problem as you say now is a lack of communication, (understanding). When scripture is given there is a habit of making it conform to us. We must conform to Him. That must include His Word.
I know that there is animosity here at this site. But it does not have to be that way. You are most gracious as is our main host David. That someone disagrees with intelligence should not be taboo.
AMH
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
You need to prove two things granny-
1 That I am the trouble maker
2 That Old Testament Saints are not part of Christ
Can you do that with Scripture?
AMH
If any one ever called my Nana "granny" in ear shot of me or mine they would walk away with race tracks arround thier eyes. Thats of coarse after they came to and got up off the ground and looked in the mirror. Hehe.
Have a little class my friend.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
You have no trouble communicating your faith.
AMH
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
:
Watcher, where would you say the OT saints are living now?
Hebrews 11:9-
By FAITH he (Abraham) dwelt in the land of promise (physical) promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city(heavenly) which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
verse 13-
These all died in FAITH, not having recieved the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were STRANGERS and PILGRIMS on the EARTH.
For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.
And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have an opportunity to return.
But now they desire a better, that is, a HEAVENLY country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city For THEM.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through FAITH, did not recieve the promise(they all died before His coming)
God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect APART from us(The BODY of Christ will be COMPLETE with saints from both Old and New Testaments.
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
Yes they are dwelling with God now ... but that was never "promised to them" ... either as a covenant or otherwise. Their vision of the afterlife seems to have been an "Abrahams Bossom" existance until a "resurection of the dead".
Now we know that is true, but what was not detailed in Scripture was that the Messiah would come as a Suffering Servant, die a cruel death, go to the depths of the earth and free those Old Testament Saints who were trapped in death and take them to heaven with Him. We don't find that out until revealed to us in the Scripture we call the New Testament.
Posted by Adv.Christian (Member # 3453) on
:
AMH I agree that a disagreeing view is not taboo however to me it certainly should not become an argumentative disagreement. In simplicity my view, your view anybody’s view is just that their view on a given subject be it biblical, scientific or any other theory based understanding. The catch to this is both parties to the conversation must approach with an open mind to the possibility that there is some truth in the views of the other side in order for true learning and growth to occur.
The fact of the matter is I firmly believe no interpretation of God’s Word is totally correct. All doctrines I have studied to this point have flaws, for there is verses which taken in context disagrees with the belief. What I now believe is what I have found most closely correlates with what God’s Word says; but there are still areas where there is no doubt that it is not complete due to the reason, as mentioned above, verses which when used in context do not agree. I do not care if you can show 500 verses in the scriptures taken in context that coincide with a belief, if there is but one verse, again taken in context, which disagrees with that belief then the belief is either wrong or not complete at the present stage. Our growth is dependent on God’s Word and our studying and development in our understanding of it. One of the many tools God has provided us is our brothers and sisters and their understanding of His Word. There should be a common goal that of reaching the true meaning of God’s Word and not what due to our own arrogance we think it should mean. Any scholar can take words and turn them to mean what they want them to look at how the constitution has been turned. As America should do with the constitution we as Christians should strive to come to as close of understanding of God’s Word as He intended it mean and keep our desires and earthly understanding from standing in the way of that. I pray God grants me the ability to never be so arrogant as to believe I could be the only person that understands God’s Word and that if everybody dose not agree with me they are condemned, for I am but His servant and what He gives I humbly take with thanks.
I hope this made since I just sort of wrote the words as they came to mind, as always my love to all and May God Bless.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
Adv. Christian,
Yes that is the trick.
Read closely Watchers response-
That being with God was never promised to them, (Old Testament Saints).
But that promise is the only thing worth having and Watcher wants to take it away.
(Only the Old Testament Saints can tell us of “their vision”.)
By the way, GrandmaTexas starts out saying that I am looking to cause trouble, (a trouble maker). Then her backup threatens me with physical violence. All of this because I disagree with their basic premise. I was not even addressing them to begin with. I addressed you and indirectly Watcher. They have no right to treat anyone like that.
AMH
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Adv.Christian:
Good morning my brothers and sisters. I wanted to ask everybody a favor. Allow me to start by giving you readers digest version of what I believe the Word of God to say concerning Rapture, 2nd Resurrection and the state of man after death. 1st- I can not find any consistent teaching of post, pre or mid tribulation Rapture of the Church, in fact, I find the Word of God to seemingly teach the opposite to that unless the use of insinuation and assumption is involved. 2nd- Concerning the 2nd resurrection; it seems to me that it is in simplicity the return of Jesus Christ at which time all mankind will be raised either to salvation or unto damnation. 3rd- And lastly the state of man after death is that of sleep until the return of Christ on the final day at which time either you have salvation or you are destroyed eternally. The fate of those which are unsaved is eternal destruction (the 2nd death) and not that of being placed in an eternal fire and torment.
Now that being said please allow me to ask my favor of everybody. While I stress that above is a limited over view of what I find; I wrote this only to give everbody a back ground of where I am currently and what I currently believe. What I would like to ask of everybody is for your assistance in helping me with my understanding of the doctrine of the rapture of the church by using scripture to help me to follow the teaching and belief in it. Please understand I admire and respect the knowledge and opinions of all members of this forum; but I would like to ask that any answers and opinions you decide to reply with you also include the scriptures on which the replies are based.
I am not attempting to start an argument over this topic, in fact quite the opposite. My prayer and desire is that you all can assist me in my growth and understanding of God’s Word. I desire to understand the views of rapture and exactly how this belief is derived in order to know if my understanding is in fact incorrect or flawed. Please understand I do not wish to attempt to delve into what or why I hold the beliefs I hold I do not desire to debate the issue I only hope to come to a clearer understanding of this subject and with with everybody’s assistance and God's guidence with this I am confident I will. I thank you in advance for your help and as always my love to all and May God bless.
Born Again please note the use of a capital G indicating the reference to the God of Israel.
Dear Advanced Christian;
I believe there will be a "catching away" of the Saints as Paul writes in Thess. about meeting the Lord in the air. I do not know if that means our physcial bodies. It may just mean our spirits/souls. Scripture is not clear here, it does teach we will have an incorrutible body or Resurrected Body.
As to the timeline of when...I don't know from scripture, except as another poster here wrote; from Thess and Matthew 24 there will be a sound of the Trumpet, or the Last Trumpet will sound.
I've heard many teachings about this trumpet.
1. In Jewish religous tradition, there was a trumpet call to worship. There is a Jewish Feast called the Feast of the Trumpets. It occurs to prepare for the Day of Atonement.
There is a timeline teaching that associates world events with the Jewish Feasts. We are currently in the Feast of Pentecost. Since Acts recorded the coming of the Holy Spirit. The
Feast of Trumpets in next on the calendar.
2.Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven saying; "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ; and he will reign for ever and ever."
If Revelation 11:15 is the same "last Trump" that Paul is talking about, it looks to me like Christians WILL be going through the Last Days including seeing the antichrist and enduring tribulation.
All of these events are still prior to God's wrath starting on earth.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
I believe there will be a "catching away" of the Saints as Paul writes in Thess. about meeting the Lord in the air. I do not know if that means our physcial bodies. It may just mean our spirits/souls. Scripture is not clear here, it does teach we will have an incorrutible body or Resurrected Body.
The Bible is very clear.
Matt.16
1. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
1Cor.15
1. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
Bible, King James Version
2 matches.
Matt.24
1. [28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Luke.17
1. [37] And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
How much weight do the parables of Jesus carry in this discussion?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
How much weight do the parables of Jesus carry in this discussion?
If I have missdirrected my Christ tell me?
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
No, I was not saying anything like that. Your scripture is high in quality.
My question is of a general nature.
Since we are talking about the return of Jesus and that He is the resurrection, in a court of law probably He would be considered an expert on the subject. And anything that He says would have to rate.
So generally speaking-
Where do the parables rate?
AMH
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
No, I was not saying anything like that. Your scripture is high in quality.
My question is of a general nature.
Since we are talking about the return of Jesus and that He is the resurrection, in a court of law probably He would be considered an expert on the subject. And anything that He says would have to rate.
So generally speaking-
Where do the parables rate?
AMH
parables of my Christ is truth and a good path to follow.
The other cross your path to redirrect.
I forget the term, but it means to lay a dirrection different.
If you need me to look it up I will.
Im done , you do it.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
You do not have to look it up. I already know.
And the parables are just as reliable as any other portion of scripture. And when the Lord talks about the resurrection through parables it is still truth. And we can obtain doctrine from them. And the rest of scripture must keep in line with them.
AMH
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
You do not have to look it up. I already know.
And the parables are just as reliable as any other portion of scripture. And when the Lord talks about the resurrection through parables it is still truth. And we can obtain doctrine from them. And the rest of scripture must keep in line with them.
AMH
ok~still watchen~ok
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
So when the reapers gather in the harvest to our Lord’s barn, they first gather up the tares and place them in the fire.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB and TexasGrandma,
And this is the reason why there is animosity. We suffer from irreconcilable differences.
AMH
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
So when the reapers gather in the harvest to our Lord’s barn, they first gather up the tares and place them in the fire.
AMH
What I think that there will be a lot of dead flesh left.
Great stench..
Those that eat death will be there.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Vulgarity will get you no where.
AMH
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
Vulgarity will get you no where.
AMH
Ok~ Stand Fast
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
I’m sure that this will be an idea that we can both agree on-
Why don’t we leave this thread? We are both bringing it down.
AMH
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
Truth through Jesus Christ our LORD be unto you.
God speaks plainly in the language of the day. The day to the people to which did write. In John, we read
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This tells us that it is by the power of the HS, and not by the human frailty of memory, subject to loss and distortion, by which the writings of the Holy Word of God came to them at the later time of writing.
For example, John tells us that He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. This makes it clear, that John's Gospel was written AFTER Acts28. 28, when 'The Salvation of God of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear (Him). *says 'it' in the AV, but is an ellipsis supplied, ie, not in the original Greek, we are free to, so I do, supply Him, we shall hear Him, not it*.
The next thing we learn of when John's Gospel was written, is that the pools were still standing. This means that Jerusalem still stood, that Nero had not burned it down. This means John's gospel was written between AD64-70.
It matters little that the 'experts' so called place the time of the writing at a much later date. What is important is that God has not lied, and has given us plain statements of fact. Facts of His interpretation mean more than gold and rubies:
Woe to you experts (doctors) in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Luke 11:52
Caught up into the air:
Here is the point!:
Don't take my word for it, search and see, the word 'air' is not the kind of air in the atmosphere, for the word is tracable back to the original neshamah נשׁמה
of Genesis2. 7, meaning the catching up is in resurrection, ie, the breath of life body, not the corporeal body of flesh. Flesh and blood cannot enter, for this mortality must put on immortality...
The Bible speak is plain and easy, everyone will be changed into their breath of life body in a piece of time so small that it cannot be divided further. The Greek word is 'atome', in the twinkling of an eye, in a moment *atome*, but the dead rise first. Those who are alive and remain can in no way preceed those who are dead. The dead rise first. There are those resurrected unto judgment, and those resurrected unto life.
imo, the problem of listening to man leans heavily on someone else doing the research, but it is written:
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" Prov 25:2
"And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me WITH ALL YOUR HEART"
Jer 29:13
It does not say God reveals to those who listen to what other people have searched. It is an individual and personal relationship which the Lord offers to those who trust in Him more than doctrines of man and of demons. For the Lord to reveal to us His Wisdom, we must search out the word of truth for ourselves. All we can do for one another is to help point to where the verses are.
For this cause I have asked for verses stating what the pre-trib rapturers see. I personally have no way to add man's ideasphere unto the Holy Word of God. If it does not say that the specific hope is to be removed from the earth prior to the great tribulation, then I shant add unto what is written. That is between myself and the Lord from Heaven. For those who take no mind to what is written and espouse to themselfs heaped up words of the Scripture doctors, that is between them and the Lord from Heaven.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
Little children, love one another.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Pro 17:3 The refining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Think about it, use your minds, God hated Essau but loved Jacob. Jacob supplanted by deciet Essau's inheritance, but God loved Jacob.
Why?
I will tell you, it is because God is the heart-knower, and judgeth the secret things of the heart, and God knew Jacob wanted the best that God had to offer, and would continue unto the end *word is PERFECT*, and God loves that.
The works that are burned up, are the works of the heart, but the individual self shall be saved, as by fire!!!
The overcomers shall not be HURT of the second death. The second death is where Death *Satan*, and Hell *the grave* is destroyed.
When God destroys things He makes all things new.
When God makes all things new, the former things are past away.
God does not contradict Himself. It is impossible for Him to lie.
None has He lost. We shall all be changed.
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
The word 'slieght' in v. 13 is significant, as it is the word 'kubeia', with the idea of playing dice with the word of God.
G2940
κυβεία
kubeia
koo-bi'-ah
From κύβος kubos (a “cube”, that is, die for playing); gambling, that is, (figuratively) artifice or fraud: - sleight.
God's words are pure words, words of earth, as tried in the fire as silver is tried, 7 times pure; Psa 12:6.
God does not need our opinions, nor our interpretations. God has given us His. If we will hear it.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
epouraniois, you have said this before, but it is not true: quote:
Jacob supplanted by deceit Esau's inheritance.
What deceit did Jacob use? Since when is it deceit to "ask Esau for his birthright promises in exchange for something else"?
Esau could have just refused.
And once Esau had profanely sold his birthright promises to Jacob, Jacob could legally say to his father Isaac that "I am Esau" when it came to the birthright promises, especially since Esau had conveniently failed to tell his father Isaac that Esau had sold his birthright promises to Jacob.
As for putting skins on his arms and neck, Jacob obeyed his own mother who told him that he must do it; and it was Esau's fault that Jacob had to go to these extremes to legally acquire the blessings attached to the birthright. All this would have been unnecessary if the former owner Esau had told his father Isaac that Jacob now owned the birthright and its accompanying blessings.
See my extended Topic on this CBBS, "I have loved Jacob" for further details.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
BA,
It is true, your right, I should have referred the verses, but you know how long my posts get, please permit me to...the verses, for I do so love and rejoice in the Word of the Lord. Likewise, when I fall down, please pick me up again as I intend always to those who love the Lord:
Gen 27:19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou biddest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.
Gen 27:11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:
Gen 27:12 My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing.
Gen 27:13 And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.
Gen 27:14 And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savory meat, such as his father loved.
Gen 27:15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son:
Gen 27:16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:
Gen 27:17 And she gave the savory meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.
Gen 27:18 And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?
Gen 27:19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou biddest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
Unity in the Spirit to you all through the LORD Jesus Christ, and to you BA I ask forgiveness. I seem to have sounded rude in the above post at the start and have re edited it. I assume it was read, and have no reason to be rude, and to this end I can only ask forgiveness of having wrote anything that later I would not is good.
I share with you an expression from the pages of Enoch2, Dr. Richard Laurence, a Hebrew professor at Oxford, produced the first English translation of the work, called SLAVONIC BOOK OF ENOCH, v1:
1 There was a wise man, a great artificer, and the Lord conceived love for him and received him, that he should behold the uppermost dwellings and be an eye-witness of the wise and great and inconceivable and immutable realm of God Almighty, of the very wonderful and glorious and bright and many-eyed station of the Lord's servants, and of the inaccessible throne of the Lord, and of the degrees and manifestations of the incorporeal hosts, and of the ineffable ministration of the multitude of the elements,
and of the various apparition and inexpressible singing of the host of Cherubim, and of the boundless light.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor 12: 2
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2 Cor 12: 3
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Cor 12: 4
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 2 Cor 12: 5
For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 2 Cor 12: 6
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2 Cor 12: 7
For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 2 Cor 12: 8
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Cor 12: 9
I too, have been provided "a thorn in the flesh", forgive me.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Truth through Jesus Christ our LORD be unto you.
Caught up into the air:
Here is the point!:
Don't take my word for it, search and see, the word 'air' is not the kind of air in the atmosphere, for the word is tracable back to the original neshamah נשׁמה
of Genesis2. 7, meaning the catching up is in resurrection, ie, the breath of life body, not the corporeal body of flesh. Flesh and blood cannot enter, for this mortality must put on immortality...
The Bible speak is plain and easy, everyone will be changed into their breath of life body in a piece of time so small that it cannot be divided further. The Greek word is 'atome', in the twinkling of an eye, in a moment *atome*, but the dead rise first. Those who are alive and remain can in no way preceed those who are dead. The dead rise first. There are those resurrected unto judgment, and those resurrected unto life.
imo, the problem of listening to man leans heavily on someone else doing the research, but it is written:
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" Prov 25:2
"And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me WITH ALL YOUR HEART"
Jer 29:13
It does not say God reveals to those who listen to what other people have searched. It is an individual and personal relationship which the Lord offers to those who trust in Him more than doctrines of man and of demons. For the Lord to reveal to us His Wisdom, we must search out the word of truth for ourselves. All we can do for one another is to help point to where the verses are.
For this cause I have asked for verses stating what the pre-trib rapturers see. I personally have no way to add man's ideasphere unto the Holy Word of God. If it does not say that the specific hope is to be removed from the earth prior to the great tribulation, then I shant add unto what is written. That is between myself and the Lord from Heaven. For those who take no mind to what is written and espouse to themselfs heaped up words of the Scripture doctors, that is between them and the Lord from Heaven.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
None has He lost. We shall all be changed.
Sorry, I edited out alot of your post and just put in the topic at hand for brevity. Your whole post was great!
Pre-tribbers have tried and offered Bibical evidence here many times for the Pre-trib view.
They themselves are convinced. Perhaps they are convinced because they will die naturally before the Tribulation. Who knows? That way they will be correct.
I believe that the Church body will go through years of tribulation and that actually several of the Seals have been opened already.
I believe the Lord will open our eyes as the time gets closer to see the Truth. Some of the Revelation is still "sealed". As in Daniel near the end of that book of the Bible, the angel tells Daniel to seal up the prophecy until the times of the end.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
That we may know Him.
I would add that, imo, Revelation has been unsealed. We are now in the tribulation, the great armies of the earth are mounting their forces in the lands which have reordered themselves to the same configuration of old, The false Jews have encamped their old Babylonian place, and all are amassing into the time of Jacob's trouble. We now see astrological events showing changes so quickly that a single generation can see differences.
Revelation, let's see how the HS uses this word, it's context:
G602
ἀποκάλυψις
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten apokalupsis the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation apokalupsis of the sons of God.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing apokalupsis of Jesus Christ
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation apokalupsis in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints
I am not saying I understand allthings, nor that there are not difficulties with the Book of the Revelator Christ Jesus, but I am saying it is written to make known, but speciically to the Jewss, as it is written to the tribes of Israel, and although we can read their letters, learn from their letters, it is addressed to Israel.
The church of the one body is given to have:
Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
But when God takes up His might work again with the nation Israel, angels, and wonders, miracles and signs again come back on the scene.
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
IF we are NOw in the Tribulation...where is the antichrist? You know the one that will rule the WHOLE world?
The Bible teaches that in the end times, right before the return of Jesus, the greatest political leader in the history of Mankind will emerge from Europe. After taking over that area by diplomatic cunning and deceit, he will launch a military campaign that will result in his acquiring "authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation" (Revelation 13:7). His empire will be the most extensive in all of history, encompassing the entire world, and his rule will be the most demonic the world has ever experienced.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
There is a difference between the tribulation and the great tribulation, for there is only one parable that is given the instruction to 'learn'. It is a parable of the fig tree, by which the generation thereof shall in no wise pass till all things be fulfilled. The subject?
3 questions:
Mat 24:3 ...
when shall these things be?
and
what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and
of the end of the world?
These 3 questions are answered inversely, that is to say question 3 is answered first, question 1 is answered last:
Mat 24:32 responds to question 2.
The whole period covered by "the day of the Lord" is called the final meeting of the ages, or the (...) (sunteleia); but, the crisis in which it culminates is called the (...) (telos), the end of the age.
Both are rendered "end" in the New Testament, but the use of these two words must be carefully distinguished.
Sunteleia denotes a finishing or ending together, or in conjunction with other things. Consummation is perhaps the best English rendering. It implies that several things meet together, and reach their end during the same period; whereas telos is the point of time at the end of that period.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Well, when the branch is tender reffers to Israel:
Jer 24:5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
Jer 24:6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
We saw this natin born in a day in 47 right? How long is a generation then? Isn't it 70 years? But for the elects sake, He will cut the time short, lest no flesh be saved.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Watcher:
IF we are NOw in the Tribulation...where is the antichrist? You know the one that will rule the WHOLE world?
The Bible teaches that in the end times, right before the return of Jesus, the greatest political leader in the history of Mankind will emerge from Europe. After taking over that area by diplomatic cunning and deceit, he will launch a military campaign that will result in his acquiring "authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation" (Revelation 13:7). His empire will be the most extensive in all of history, encompassing the entire world, and his rule will be the most demonic the world has ever experienced.
I can't answer for the other poster. I don't think we are in the tribulation right now, I think we are in the Birth Pains Jesus talked about and the Beginning of Sorrows.
I did want to add that in my believing that some of the 7 seals have already been opened that I do not see the the 1st Seal with the rider on the white horse as the anitchrist. I believe that the rider on the white horse is the Holy Spirit promised to come by Jesus, and it signifies that the Church is riding.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
Suprise suprise, but the answer of the beginning of sorrows is answering when shall be the end of the age, but bigger still, is the fact that the US Gov is headed by leaders and cabinets who ALL work for the EU, and are under direct blood relation of the Queen. Every president this country has had, since at least Harry S. Truman was murdered who wasn't a blood descendant and under direct control of the Queen accept for one.
That one was Clinton. Most do not understand the occult. Occult, the word means hidden things. And everyone in the know, was well aware of what it meant when the actions done right in our face:
Reagan, when he took the Oath of Office, faced the obelisk, indicating that this country will ultimately have a concordat.
Columbia has a concordat with the Pope. A concordat is a treaty with the Pope. Hitler had a concordat. Mussolini had a concordat. Franco had a concordat. They want to set up a concordat here, which was the reason for Reagan formally recognizing the sovereign state of Vatican City in 1984.
So, they had a concordat. Columbia has a concordat. Do you think that drugs running out of Columbia, with a country that has a concordat with Rome, is not controlled by Rome? If Rome didn’t want the drug trade out of Columbia, they’d end the concordat. The whole drug trade is run by high Mafia families out of the country of Columbia, subject to the Jesuit General.
And the Jesuit General ran the Opium trade, a couple of centuries ago, out of China. They ran the silk trade, the pearl trade. The movie Shogun is but a slight scratching of the surface of the Jesuit "black ships" that trafficked in all of this silk and pearls and gold and opals and everything they could pull out of the East, including opium.
The Vietnam War was to consolidate and control this huge massive drug-trade that would inundate every American city with drugs, being brought in by the CIA with their Air America, and then distributed by the Trafficante family throughout the United States—Santos Trafficante out of Miami.
So we have the Mafia and the CIA working together in the drug trade. We have the Mafia and the CIA working together in the assassination of Kennedy.
The first reason why the Jesuit General [at that time, Jean-Baptist Janssens] wanted Kennedy out of the way was because he was going to end the Vietnam War.
The second reason is, he wanted to end the reign of the CIA, because the CIA had betrayed him in the person of McGeorge Bundy, by not giving the cover to the Cuban patriots to retake Cuba from that Roman Catholic, Jesuit-trained, grease-ball, Nazi—Fidel Castro.
The third reason is that he wanted to stop the money changers, he wanted to put America back under the silver standard and print our own money.
Kennedy was betrayed by the CIA at the Bay of Pigs invasion, which sacrificed all the patriots on the shores of the Bay of Pigs there, so Castro had no real opposition. This was the same tactic, used by the CIA and the KGB at the top, working together with Angleton controlling it, in the Hungarian Revolution, when the CIA fomented that revolution, and then betrayed all of those patriots into the hands of the Soviet army and KGB, which infuriated certain top CIA officials.
It’s the same tactic: you raise up a revolution and you sacrifice the men who truly want to resist. When that happened, when McGeorge Bundy stopped the air cover of the Bay of Pigs invasion, that ended that resistance to Castro and it enthroned him into power. And, of course, it was meant to be by the Jesuits because they HAD trained him. So now Kennedy looks bad. He’s got egg all over his face. What does he want to do? He signs a Memorandum, according to Fletcher Prouty, and takes all of the power away from the CIA, and gives it to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The CIA was built by the Knights of Malta. One of the founders of the CIA was "Wild" Bill Donovan, an Irish Roman Catholic, who are the most fanatical, and his brother was a Dominican priest, Vincent. So, the CIA was founded by this high Roman Catholic, the first head, to solidify the Catholic or the Vatican control of it.
I’m not against the Catholic people; I’m against Rome’s hierarchy. The American Catholic people know NOTHING of what’s going on. And if they did, there would be a march on St. Patrick’s tomorrow morning. So, as I’m against the hierarchy, I’m showing that Kennedy was against the Vietnam War, and he was going to do away with the CIA.
Well, the Jesuits had brought in all of their top Nazi SS soldiers into the CIA because the Jesuits were using the SS to kill the Jews in Europe. When the Einsatzgruppen went into Russia, the Jesuits followed with the SS and purged Western Russia of all its Jews. That’s why Stalin deliberately killed 40,000 of his best officers. That’s why he kicked out his best generals, purged them, because he wanted to make sure that the Red Army would lose with the advance of the German army, because following that would come the SS and purge Russia of the Jews that Stalin so hated. And by the way, justice is often poetic because Stalin’s daughter married a Jew.
Now, the CIA was composed of the SS. The CIA now was an arm—and the intelligence arm—of the Vatican. The Knights of Malta were throughout. Casey was a Knight of Malta. Angleton was a Knight of Malta. The Knights were through and through. Angleton manned the "Vatican desk", and that is a desk within the CIA that has a direct link to the Vatican.
So, Kennedy wanted to end this "intelligence community". That was the end of him. Speaking on the end, since the CIA coup failed, and they have been trying to assasinated Chavez, who, like Kennedy, wanted to return his people their country and their countries resources to them.
Thus for anyone attempting to end the CIA, and attempting to end the Vietnam War, and also because he attacked the Jesuits’ Federal Reserve Bank by printing United States Notes, they got rid of him. They killed our only Roman Catholic president.
Well, in the book that Crowley wrote in 1912, he says that Taft and Teddy Roosevelt were all cow-towing to the Pope and the Cardinals of New York. And he said they’re going to use our military to restore the Pope’s temporal power around the world.
And THAT was absolutely correct. That is American foreign policy. And the Council of Trent is the American foreign policy of today. That’s what’s going on in Serbia and Bosnia. It’s the Council of Trent—the Jesuits using the American Air Force to bomb those orthodox people to smithereens. But, that was Crowley’s great contribution.
Next, Emmett McLaughlin wrote several books. He wrote The People’s Padre; he wrote Crime And Immorality In The Catholic Church, showing that Catholic nations are more lawless and more criminal than Protestant nations, and he proved it with statistics from the jails.
Emmett McLaughlin also wrote another book called The Assassination Of Abraham Lincoln, where he, again, shows that Lincoln was assassinated by the Jesuits. So, Emmett McLaughlin came out of the Catholic Church. To my knowledge, he never was born again. He never was saved, but he did tell the truth. He married a nun, and lived a virtuous and honorable life after he left.
The last one was, of course, Alberto Rivera, who was greatly hated by the Vatican because he was a very high Jesuit who came out and, in the late ’60s, about 1969, exposed the power of Rome in the ecumenical movement, that Rome controlled Kathryn Kuhlman; that Rome controlled Billy Graham; that Rome controlled, virtually, our government—Ronald Reagan.
Reagan, when he took the Oath of Office, faced the obelisk, indicating that this country will ultimately have a concordat. So, Alberto Rivera converted to Christ, wonderfully, and he started a ministry called The Anti-Christ Information Center, out of Los Angeles.
Our Masonic forefathers were merely following the details of the occult plan as envisioned specifically by Sir Francis Bacon in the 1590's, operating according to the vision provided him by his Guiding Spirit. Also in the same article we see that the The White House (President's House) -- "... the President's House was the first public building to be erected in Washington, D.C.
A letter submitted 'by a gentleman' to a Charleston newspaper offers the only surviving eyewitness version of the Masonic cornerstone laying, which was held on Saturday, October 13, 1792, when the Georgetown Lodge No. 9 of Maryland gathered for the ceremony." [Ovason, P. 62] Also as the story of Washington, D.C., unfolds, we will be forced to the conclusion that the 13 approximately straight lines of avenues which L'Enfant planned for the city were symbolic of the stripes of the national flag, laid out to receive the impress of the stars." [Ovason, P. 66] Further, July 4 is exactly 13 days after Summer Solstice on June 21. In this calculation, June 22 is counted as 'Day 1'. The number 13 is the number of Satan's rebellion, and figures prominently in Luciferian lore. But, now, David Ovason tells us something new about the Declaration of Independence. "These [Astrological] computations clearly show that on the day the Declaration of Independence was agreed in Philadelphia, the Sun was on Sirius ." [Page 138] Thus, our occult Masonic Founding Fathers calculated even the day when they should agree on the wording of the Declaration of Independence. This day was one in which the Sun was on Sirius. This careful attention to the timing of the events which succeeded in founding this nation were predetermined according to Astrological phenomenon! Ovason then clearly states, "The Mason who first signed the Declaration of Independence would have been aware of the particular significance of July 4 as a cosmic event."
Commander-in-Chief will face the sacred Egyptian obelisk, known as the Washington Monument, and take the inaugural omens.
The pyramid-shaped top of the structure has two windows that are illuminated with red light at night, and the effect is like two glowing red eyes overlooking the city. This 555 foot piece of masonry sometimes casts an ominous shadow across the reflecting pool toward the capitol building, and it is the first object that the sun strikes as it rises over this occult city in the District of Columbia. It is also interesting to note that if you convert the 555 feet of height into inches, it comes out to 6660, which reveals the number of the beast imbedded in the sacred geometry of the structure.
Bush who rules from the White House which the cornerstone was laid by a Masonic Ritual on Saturday, October 13, 1792, when the Georgetown Lodge No. 9 of Maryland gathered for the ceremony, which is surrounded by 13 approximately straight lines of avenues which L'Enfant planned for the city which were symbolic of the stripes of the national flag, laid out to receive the impress of the stars, which is also is laid out in a Satanic Pentagram. The south point which represents where the spirit of Satan is to dwell. The new Commander-in-Chief faced the sacred Egyptian obelisk, known as the Washington Monument, and took the inaugural omens and when you convert the 555 feet of height into inches, it comes out to 6660, which reveals the number of the beast imbedded in the sacred geometry of the structure. Whom our leaders have allowed the Illuminati to divide The United States into seven different regions geographically. Each region has a 13 member leadership council that coordinates with the local leadership councils.
When Reagan faced the oblisk, it was the first president to do so. The occultists all over the world new exactly what this meant. It meant that the anti, instead of Christ would would take control of the government of the world under the next administration.
That didn't happen. God had stepped in with His countermovement. The Clinton, an outsider, well groomed, but an outsider to the Satanic deceptions would be killed if he could not uphold the one world government Lucifarian plan.
Clinton was made well aware of this. Clinton showed the secret government that he was able to pass the torch to the next president who in turn is expected to bring forth the instead of christ.
Clinton showed the occult world by taking his oath facing the oblisk.
Now Bush is in office again, and all his cabinet and chief of staff are the same people who worked under his father.
This country was taken over by Nazi's long ago.
Behind the Senate floor podium, on eigher side of the flag, we have two huge symbols of Fascism hanging.
What are they doing there?
Don't be deceived. It IS happening.
By the way, the Bush family owned the first business's to be confiscated in the Nazi war for war crimes assisting the Nazi's. They were shipping gold bars and also supplying petro to Germany. Rather than arresting the Bushs', the government paid them millions of dollars for their trouble.
But this was all controlled from the Vatican.
Go down to the local Best Buy, purchase the cnn 911 dvd. slow it down frame by frame, and watch the missles being fired by the non passenger flight into the twin towers. We all have this information, but it is so horrible our brains do not want to acknowledge it. Severe trauma is something our brains naturally filter out.
George Bush, Jr. with complete allegiance to Rome, just like his father - His grandfather helped set up the CFR. His uncle is a Knight of Malta. They’ve already chosen him in the College of Cardinals. Everything else is a show. Jesuit-trained Buchanan is a show. Roman Catholic McCain is a show. The Supreme Court is just a rubber stamp and more centralization of power in the hands of the President He becomes the king. The courts are nothing more than the courts of the king’s bench. The Federal Reserve Bank will remain in power. Everything will be monitored and controlled by Washington, but out of the EU. The English word Court is the Latin word Bank. Check it out. Some people need to wake up and get in touch with what is going on if they don't wish to remain deceived.
Pennsylvania is COMPLETELY controlled by the Jesuits. What is the definition of the term Jesuits? Universal Absolutism.
That means worldwide, universal, over every nation, absolute power. Absolutism is their great doctrine, that absolute power resides in the hands of the General. He is limited by no constitution. He is limited by no law.
This is the Great Doctrine of Divine Right, the Divine Right of Kings that was so fought against by the Calvinists. We Bible-believing Calvinists believe in the Rule of Law. The Law is king. Rutherford’s "Lex Rex". The Jesuits believe the king is the law—Louis XIV: "I am the law". So, it’s going to be a universal, world-wide king who, himself, is the law. All authority will be in him, as he rules the world from Jerusalem, as the Beast.
Did you know David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations is quoted as saying the following "No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a LUCIFERIAN Initiation."
These folks are serious people.
"Folks globalization is the New World Order and it is already here. This is the reign of the Anti-Christ foretold in Revelations. The only reason he hasn't reveled himself yet is because of those of us still here that will know him for what he is. Buckle your seat belts because its going to be a rough ride for some of you."
First we have tribulation, then we have Great Tribulation when Satan arrives defacto, showing himself that he is God.
You wanna understand something about our real technologies, how they are being used, and used against our weather as military weapons are being used, how we are being 'dumbed down' as a race by the waves that fill our skies? here is a starter:
http://www.think-aboutit.com/Misc/haarp_vandalism_in_the_sky.htm
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/populationcontrolagenda2.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/
http://www.benabraham.com/html/illuminati_-_666.html
http://www.disclosureproject.org/cosmicdeception.htm
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/destruction_of_the_trade_centers.htm
A military coalition has launched itself into an unbridled exploitation of the world’s resources and energy reserves. Fuelled by neo-conservatives, it has increased its attacks, practicing all forms of interference, from forcing changes in regimes to colonial-style expansionism. This coalition continually violates the principles of international law as they were established by the conference of the Hague and laid out in the San Francisco Charter.
This group masks its ambitions by intoxicating the media and by deceiving international organizations. It practices a double standard by unjustly accusing those who stand in their way of not respecting the rules whilst violating them themselves. The coalition betrays democratic ideals when claiming to serve them through military occupation. - by Axis for Peace
Eisenhower tried to warn of the ensuing Military Industrial Complex
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
President Eisenhower's farewell address to the nation, January 1961
"In the counsels of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."
Listen to the entire speech
http://www.disclosureproject.org/videogallery.htm
http://www.disclosureproject.org/
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