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Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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2Ti 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
This verse, I have a different take on it from when I first began Bible studies, in fact, I can't recall what I thought of it back then.
This leads me to ask what the Bible students here have to say about it?
I don't mind saying that I think it has to do with honoring that which God has made seperate, not mixing things together in a way that His Holy Word becomes an amalgomation, becomes something of our understanding. For it is my earnest endeavor to seek that which is revealed of His understanding, for mine is valueless.
In the studies I have been involved with of late, it is like a light has shone on many verses which have changed the meanings in some, by relationships I mean.
The verse below has within it a two-fold instruction:
Phi 1:10
That ye may approve {try} things that are excellent{that differ}; that ye may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ;
It is preceeded by the prayer that your love may abound yet more and more in *1* knowledge and in *2* all judgment
So I have been busy testing those things which are different and found this instruction to be very condusive to opening up the Scriptures, the Lord opening them up - of course.
It is of note that both of these instructions are given by the apostle when the mystery *secret* is revealed 'for you gentiles' - Eph 3:1;
Excellent *Phil 1:10*
This word is used for something ‘different’ *Heb. 1:4*, something ‘surpassing’ *1 Cor. 12:31*, something ‘fuller’ *Heb. 11:4), as well as the title ‘most excellent’ used of Theophilus, or of Felix. The reference to Abel’s offering being ‘fuller’ than that offered by Cain *Heb. 11:4* is of intense significance.
Diaphero, is composed of dia ‘through’ and phero ‘to bear’ and the English ‘differ’ from the Latin dis apart and fero to carry or to bear is almost an exact equivalent. Drive up and down *Acts 27:27* - of the passage of a ship in the grip of a tempest is a vivid application of the essential meaning of diaphero. Publish. The idea of ‘carrying through’ when applied to the declaration of a message.
More value and better *Mat 6:26; 10:31* - difference in value being the idea, rather than difference in place and position.
Differ. 1 Corinthians 15:41 and Galatians 2:6.
To make matter. Here in Galatians 2:6: ‘It maketh no matter to me’, and Moffatt's, ‘it makes no difference to me what their status used to be’. The word begins to assume its fuller figurative meaning.
Excellent. Romans 2:18; Philippians 1:10.
It is impossible to approve things that are excellent without trying things that differ, and this echoed in 2 Timothy 2:15 where we have the injunction, ‘rightly divide the word of truth’, and the sequel in Philippians 1:10, ‘that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ’ is to the same effect as that of 2 Timothy 2:15, ‘approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed’.
Clearly Salvation is of the Lord, but we read further that there is something extra being offered to some of His children, something that can be won or lost. The apostle uses terms 'reward', 'prize', and 'crown' when speaking of things that are more excellent. He compairs these most excellent things to that of winning a race, touching the mark, being in a fight and so forth.
Take Abraham, we expressly read in Genesis 12, 15 that he is given all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates but never lived in anything more than a tent. In Hebrews 11 'better' is the theme, Abraham was looking for a 'better country'. Christ in Heb 1:4, 'Being made so much better...he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name...; Heb 6:9 - But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation; Heb 7:19 - For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God; Heb 7:22 - ...Jesus made a surety of a better testament; Heb 8:6 - [u]But now[/u] hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises; Heb 9:23 - ...patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these; Heb 10:34 - ...ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance;
and here we finally arrive in Heb 11, the overcomers of Isreal,
Heb 11:16 - But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city; Heb 11:35 - Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection; Heb 11:40 - God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect - Heb 12:24 - And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
Surely this reward in Hebrews is that better country, the city which is heavenly, and something more than what God's earthly children will inherit 'in the earth'.
We just read of a better resurrection. This must be for those that Heb 6:1 don't contunually just lay foundational teachings over and over again, but continue on till the end of their spritual growth, that word 'perfection'.
And don't you all think that the reason Abraham is in that great list of Hebrews 11 overcomers, is because he didn't take the lazy theme of saying, 'well Lord, that sounds good, that heavenly city, I know it is better because you have revealed it to me, but I think I'll just settle with the earthly things of the land right now. I'm not really interested in those better things. Even though that better resurrection sounds really great, I'll be just fine with the lesser things of resurrection'
Isn't this 'continuing onto perfection' really that thing of reward which the apostle speaks about when speaking of the 'out resurrection'?
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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Great post epouraniois!!
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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2Ti 2:15
Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The Word of God is just amazing to me; when I think of Its Power.
In my life, It has swept away the world's kind of books and music and interests in my life, so that I am now interested in completely different things than I was 25 years ago when I got saved.
The LORD God of Israel notices who is studying His Word and whom He can use to say what He needs to say because the Words are in them.
The LORD's Word is like a puzzle whose pieces we first lay all out on the table. And we search for and choose the side pieces, to form the frame of the LORD's Word.
And when we have understood and laid the frame of His Word, then we begin to find pieces in His Word which fit up against the outer frame, until the insides begin to be filled up and the glory and fame and great Name of the LORD shines forth to those who have filled in the puzzle.
Thanks for your Greek knowledge, brother epouraniois
BORN AGAIN by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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I gotta love AMH for this one: quote:
(If I sign off by saying “God bless” will that make everything all right?)
No, AMH, it would not be for me. I would like you in that case to be more specific of "which God" you have in mind, for there be many would-be gods on the earth, including yourself now and then.
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS; break forth on us, Oh LORD!
But you are an interesting person, and I am actually surprised that there have not been any cries for expulstion of you, given how you have exhibited a standard of rudeness combined with eruditenes which makes you lovable but all mixed up into one unbelievable bunch: now behave yourself, the LORD said.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
In Jesus's Name I am BORN AGAIN by His
"He is exalted, the King is exalted on high"
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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I would like to take this further, for it is my opinion that as we are so far below the God of our Lord Christ Jesus, we can never fully plumb the depths of His Holy Word. Nevertheless we do have a destination to reach:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
This brings two immediate conceptual questions;
1. What do I do till I come to this unity?
2. What is the result of coming to this unity?
Well, we don't have to guess, the Lord doesn't leave us to our own understanding, rather we are warned over and again NOT to lean towards our own understanding, for there is a reason God has given us His understanding, which is so much BETTER.
1. see Eph 4. 3
2. see Eph 4. 14
But then both of those verses require intense study.
Back to rightly dividing though, and those 'better' things:
Now we see that there is a company of Israel who are 'overcomers' and seek a 'better resurrection'. Does this in anyway make void God's promise that the 'meek shall inherit the earth'? Of course not, it only means that there is a 'reward' laid up in store for those who love Him AND continue onto perfection, that is to say, to spiritual maturity, which is contrast against babies.
So we are left with, so far, 2 groups of people.
1. Those who shall inherit the earth. They are the meek.
2. Those who shall inherit the heavenly city which also comes down to the earth.
In this we have 2 different things. Remember, this thread is about trying *testing* the things that are different. If there are better things, then right away we know that some things must be different, they cannot be the same if one of them is 'better', right?
Well, this has brought us to know what is the hope of Israel, that, in resurrection, some will inherit the earth, and some will inherit the heavenly city which comes down from heaven to the earth.
Both of these things, these spheres of blessings, are given to Israel.
Why then, do people say they are going to heaven?
Well, I'll tell you why. Because after Acts was over, the Lord gave to His chosen vessel, the apostle Paul, a new revelation, which is what the prison epistles are all about. In these God tells us He is revealling something that was never made known before. He said it was a 'mystery'. Well, that is just the word 'secret'. If we lived 500+ years ago, we would ask if someone could keep a mystery. Today, we ask if someone can keep a secret. Same word, no big deal, nothing mysterious about it, and especially so once the Lord has revealed to us what His secret is.
Now God has made known that this secret was not hid in the Bible, but it was, rather, 'hid in God' Eph 3:9, AND, 'hid in God from ages *of time* AND from generations *of men*, BUT NOW is made manifest...Col 1:26
Well, if it is not revealled until the BUT NOW is made manifest, then it could not have been known before the BUT NOW is made manifest timeline. So, what is this timeline, what is this secret, and who is it written for?
These are the basic question which need to be addressed if we are going to come to a place where we can ACKNOWLEDGE the plan of the ages and the word of God which He has in store for those that love Him.
Does anyone know what this secret is that God made known to Paul and who it applies to? Please keep in mind that the overcomers have an 'inheritance' which does not make void the word of God for those who 'inherit' the earth. One thing is in addition to another and does not cancel out the other, for it is written,
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions...
mansions just means places of rest, abodes perhaps. Some are, as we have already seen, 'better'. And if the word of God is true, and it is, then we should seek the best that God has to offer, right? So what is the best that God has to offer? I will give a clue,
The epistles written during the Acts were for the hope of Israel, and some gentiles were used to 'provoke' Israel to jealousy, that is the word 'provoke' to 'emmulation', same word in the Greek.
Those gentiles were expressly told that if the tree is cut, hewn, down, then they would be cut off with Israel.
Well, is Israel the preimment nation and channel God is using today to reach and bless the whole world with today, or was Israel cut off, hewn down? Obviously Israel is in her time of abayence right now, not blessing anyone, not bringing the nations to the knowledge of God, for we read after they were set aside *but for a time*, that 'the Salvation of God is;
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Never before this demarcation was the Salvation of God sent to the gentiles. That word gentiles is only the word nations. Now, when Israel took her place amidst the nations, we find it is the 3rd and final time that that dreadful passage of Isaiah is quoted, there eyes are blind, there ears are deaft, they cannot be healed until things get so bad for them that there is only one last recourse, which is to cry out to the name of the Lord. Well, that is what the revlation of Christ the Lord Jesus the revelator was to John, the revealing of these things when Israel will finally cry out as it is written.
What about the time that now is then? Is it written in the OT? No, this time is not, only that this time would happen, but Israel has no instruction in the OT in what they should do once they become 'Lo-ammi', or 'not my people'.
The mystery in the prison epistles are written for our time, they were written to all nations *Israelites included* if one comes to the Lord now, it is done, not as a nation, but as an individual.
So, what is different?
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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dear epouraniois, you write quote:
Well, this has brought us to know what is the hope of Israel, that, in resurrection, some will inherit the earth, and some will inherit the heavenly city which comes down from heaven to the earth.
I missed the Biblical documentation for this assertion—could you please document the idea that some “Christians will inherit the earth” and some “Christians will inherit heaven? Thanks.
You also write quote:
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Never before this demarcation was the Salvation of God sent to the gentiles. That word gentiles is only the word nations. Now, when Israel took her place amidst the nations…
What about the house of Ephraim-Israel and the house of Judah-Benjamin, both of which were dispersed among the nations (ethnoi), the former in 721 B.C. before Jesus and the latter in 70 A.D. after Jesus.
When the gospel was sent henceforth to the Gentiles—albeit to make Israel jealous—but also to admit Gentile proselytes into the faith of Jesus, the church became the Israel of God, as for now the kingdom of God was taken from Old National Israel:
Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Who is this nation which brings forth the fruit thereof? Is it the church of the Israel of God, now with Jesus as the head of the corner? Are we that nation?
And to that must be added that the house of Israel and the house of Judah must yet come up out of their graves while among the heathen:
Ezekiel 37:12
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
So “who are the meek” who will inherit the earth? And “who are those who inherit heaven”? Are you saying they are two different types of Christians, or what?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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quote:
I missed the Biblical documentation for this assertion
"The meek shall inherit the earth".
And let it be said that the hope duringthe Acts period was well asked of at the onset of the understanding being opened the apostles eyes for 40 days of teaching out of the law and the prophets and the Psalms in Luk24, and Act1:6, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel...
the meek: Mat_11:29, Mat_21:5; Num_12:3; Psa_22:26, Psa_25:9, Psa_69:32 *marg. Psa_147:6, Psa_149:4; Isa_11:4, Isa_29:19, Isa_61:1; Zep_2:3; Gal_5:23; Jam_1:21, Jam_3:13; 1Pe_3:4, 1Pe_3:15
they: Psa_25:13, Psa_37:9, Psa_37:11, Psa_37:22, Psa_37:29, Psa_37:34; Isa_60:21; Rom_4:13
Indeed, the intire OT is about the kingdom which from Genesis to the end of Acts was preached, that Israel would inherit the earth, for Abraham was told to walk the lenght and the breadth of that very land, but as quoted at the first, he looked for a city which is heavenly *in it's nature/earthly in it's resting place* - Rev 21:2.
quote:
What about the house of Ephraim-Israel and the house of Judah-Benjamin, both of which were dispersed among the nations (ethnoi), the former in 721 B.C. before Jesus and the latter in 70 A.D. after Jesus.
Any Israelites are not gentiles. Israel was not set amidst the gentiles until all Israel had heard, Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
And though they were dispersed, as James and Peter expressly writes to the diasporia, they remained seperate and came to the regular Pentecostal feast wherein no gentile was permitted.
Indeed, Paul was never permitted to goto any place to preach wherein no synagogue could be found, in other words, Paul did exactly what the Bible states, preaching none other things;
Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
And ALWAYS to the Jew first. Something really helpful to make ourselves aware of is how literal this is, when reading the epistles written before Acts 28.28, there is within Paul's a strict rotation of address, to the Jew first, then to the gentile *who awaited outside the middle wall of partition*.
This middle wall was not broken down until the Lord reveals He has created one new man from the twain in Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
The keyword here is the word 'make' = ktizō. Let's look at how this word is used by God elsewhere to understand His meaning:
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created ktizō unto this time, neither shall be.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator ktizō, who is blessed forever. Amen.
But we have much more in the Word of God showing us that this is indeed a New Creation, and they are easily seen when compairing those things which are different.
quote:
When the gospel was sent henceforth to the Gentiles—albeit to make Israel jealous—but also to admit Gentile proselytes into the faith of Jesus, the church became the Israel of God, as for now the kingdom of God was taken from Old National Israel
I disagree, but allow me to say why:
1. Read Acts2, and throughout the OT, proselytes were always accepted, becoming Jews. When one becomes a Jew, just ask one, they see the gentile as a new born baby ready for instruction in the law of Moses. They took on the full burden of the law, but in Acts 15 we read 'it seemed good to the HS to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things, and then 4 things are named, Act 15:28-29, so new gentile believers were never again proselytes, they were to be condemed by the unblelieving Jews and proselytes throughout the Acts period, till God blinds them at the end of Acts, fulfilling the Lo-ammi prophecy:
Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
So let me ask you, is this what you look forward to? David your king? Well, that's what Paul taught the Jews during the Acts:
Act 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
and i think we miss the import of this and other concepts of the Acts. there was one goal and only one goal, for Israel to receive her promised kingdom, which could only be made possible by Christ fulfilling all things written in the law and the prophets and the Psalms, which He said He did do in Luke 24.
2. Paul says clearly that he received 'by revelation'
Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
3. Notably, this phrase is found only here and nowhere else, so lets examine it briefly.
the subject:
"as many as walk according to this rule"
a. peace be on them, and mercy
b. AND
c. upon the Israel of God
We have here, two companies, 'on them' AND pon the Israel of God.
One company then is not the Israel of God here, so, who are they if they are not the many who was being at that time then spoken to and spoken of - the gentiles who were not called, but were graphed in un naturally to the true tree, Israel?
Now, Israel of God is merely in contrast with what we have been reading all through the Bible, Israel of the flesh. God uses contrast. See the contrast? I am aware that this goes against doctrines, but we are told that we need two or three witnesses, not to build doctrine on one verse:
The question asked and answered:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge?
AND
whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
THE ANSWER:
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little
WHAT THEY FACED DURING ACTS:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
This is what the apostle went around telling them, quoting none other things than the law and prophets, thatthey were fulfilling the negetive parts of Scripture when they could have the required after mindedness *repentance* and so then turn towards Godliness and become the Israel of God rather than the Israel of the flesh.
Did they? No, they did not, instead they tried to kill Paul, and led by God,the apostle found himself a prisoner in Acts 28, in bonds for the hope of Israel Act 28:20, but immediately their request for devorcement, it was granted Acts26=depart=devorce, a prisoner of the Lord for you nations, Eph3. 1.
And for the first time in all of the Bible we are confronted as were they, with the revelation that there is a third company of called out ones. These have every blessing which is spiritual, and these blessings are not in the heavenly city, and not in the earth, but theye are in heavenly places, Eph1. 3, futher we are told that this company was not, as every other chosing had been - since the foundation of the world Mat 25:34, but chosen in Him 'from before the foundation of the world' Eph 1:4, coupled with another in a long series of Biblical firsts, Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
The list of differences abound in their sphere of glory, which is one reason for this topic, to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery:
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Not hid in the Bible where it could be found, but hid in God where it only could be known when God decided to reveal it, and we are even told He would reveal something:
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Then we are told exactly who would the HS reveal to, an able steward *the word dispensation comes from this word, as does 'sent' come from 'apostle'*:
He is given a two-fold commission:
Act 26:16
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
to make thee a minister and a witness BOTH of these things
1. which thou hast seen, and
2. of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Israel has an earthly kingdom, but the church is not introduced until after Israel is set aside, and the name of the church is set forth immediately thereafer:
Eph 1:22
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23
Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
Again, this church is not associated with earthly things:
"IF" is not conditional here, here it is assumed as fact, like, if your going in the kitchen please bring me...:
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Why? Because this church has an adoption 'far above all', and anyone can come to this church, but not carrying every wieght the apostle says to lay aside.
In fact, it is of the uttermost import to be able to acknowledge what Paul had to acknowledge:
Phi 3:13 ...but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus
There are 3 'hopes' corresponding to 3 'calling'(s) in the Bible, with the church which is His body being the ONE called to the 'high calling'. All other callings have an earthly inheritance. When Paul began revealing this new revalation, we read that every believer Paul had converted turned away from him. It was too much, how was Israel of the flesh, Israel who could not bear to be of one body of believers with gentiles who did not take the full burden of the law supposed to deal with another company who was not of their chosing and seen as seated with Christ far above all in the superheavenly abode?
when thinking on God's understanding, we read of the church, that it is merely a called out company, an assembly, whether riotous or peaceful is irrelevent, they are all churches, and what seprerates one from another is not what the preacher says it is, it is what God says it is, namlely one church was called to a kingdom, the same OT kingdom, and afterwards, that is to say after Acts28 when that kingdom offer was taken off the table, a new church called His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all is set into view, the former taking her place amidst the nation, the latter expressly in view and truth for today. To say that we as modern society does not understand the meaning and application of Biblical based churches is an understatement, as is the words 'eternal', 'forever', 'kingdom', &c. &c.
from the appendixes of the companion bible i offer Dr. Bullinger's analysis of the term 'church'
It should be remembered of the kingdom offer and refusal during the Acts, of what is written of it:
TO THE JEWS LEADERHIP:
Luk 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
TO THE BELIEVING GENTILES:
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
TO THOSE OF THE KINGDOM OFFER, ISA6. 1, 10 = 3RD TIME:
Act 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed *divorced*, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Act 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed , and had great reasoning among themselves.
Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
they divorced themselves just as the OT proclaimed and are now Lo-ammi, that includes the Israel of God that fell into disblief, as it is written in Heb 10:29, and that's what happened to them, bring about what Paul has been given by the Holy Spirit the revelation of a 'created' from 'twain' 'one new body' of believers 'chosen' 'before the foundation of the world'
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace
Eph 1:7 ...according to the riches of his grace
Eph 2:7 that he might display in the coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace
Eph 3:2 ...the administration of the grace of God
Eph 3:7 ...according to the gift of the grace
Eph 3:8 To me, less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given, to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ
AND THEY ARE UNSEARCHABLE BECAUSE THEY WERE 'HID IN GOD' NOT IN THE OT.
This is what the Bible states and this is what I must come to terms with, acknowledging that God has placed everything in a specific place, to a specific peoples, to a specific purpose, to a specific times, and of these there are differences which only the gentile church, in all of Scripture, holds the instruction that although all Scirpture is God-Breathed and therefore profitable, it must be rightly divided, wherein we too, can be instructed by Israel's direction:
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
AGAPE
http://www.companionbiblecondensed.com/AP/ap186.pdf
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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dear brother epouraniois, I read 90% of your Topic (there is a lot there), and based on that 90%, I had a question and/or assertion, or two.
I have a Topic somewhere on this CBBS entitled something like "the good olive tree never died."
"evenso now there is a remnant." That is, of Old National Israel, there were many thousands of Israel-Judah who believed that Jesus was the Messiah. Many believers were saved when they heeded the words of our Lord to "flee" when they "saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies."
Old National Israel had the administration of the kingdom of God, until the LORD YHWH took it away from Old National Israel and gave the administration of the kingdom of God into the hands of His Own Son Yahshua-Jesus who became the new corner of Israel.
And since Yahshua-Jesus was God, Israel now became the Israel of God.
But, there will yet be a New National Israel, when the Lord Yahshua-Jesus sets His foot on the mount of Olives and takes possession of the oblation of land by Jerusalem resrerved for the Prince.
In the meantime, the good olive tree of Isra3el never died; even then, there was a remnant of Israel-Judah who believed and continued in the good olive tree; while those of Israel-Judah who did not believe were cut out of the good olive tree, and Gentiles believers were grafted into the good olive tree ("bring in the lame and the halt so that my wedding feast is filled").
But when Messiah Jesus sets down on the mount of Olives, the house of Israel and the house of Judah will come up out their graves and come to the land of Israel, including the dead proselytes to the faith of Jesus?
My point is, that the church is now Israel "in motion", and is called the Israel of God in constrast to Old National Israel from whom the kingdom of God taken, the Divine Son Himself now being the Administrator or Head of the church, so that Israel is now the Israel of God, administered by God, eventhough only from heaven for now.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
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Replacement theology. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
God has always had but one spiritual people.
Israel was God’s chosen nation until they rejected Christ.
The Church has replaced Israel as the people of God.
The Church (incl. Jew & gentile) will be taken to heaven.
Redemption is in the cross and sacrifice is finished forever.
Promises to Israel are fulfilled spiritually in Christ’s Church.
The modern restoration of Israel is co-incidental.
Even if a temple gets rebuilt it is unnecessary and irrelevant.
There will be a revival of Jews but on the same basis as gentiles.
The ‘1000 year’ reign represents the present Church age. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
Dispensationalism. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
God has two distinct people – Israel and the Church.
God’s promises to Israel were postponed till after the rapture.
The Church is God’s spiritual people; Israel is God’s ethnic people.
Israel will rule with Christ on earth and the Church in heaven.
Redemption in the millennium includes reinstituted temple sacrifice.
Unfulfilled promises to Israel will be fulfilled literally in the future.
The modern restoration of Israel is a last-days fulfillment of prophesy.
Ezekiel’s temple is not yet fulfilled and must soon be rebuilt.
The Jewish revival will usher in a new Jewish dispensation.
There will be a literal millennium and it will be Jewish in nature.
About Israel:
Deuter. 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; You grew fat, you grew thick, You are obese! Then he forsook God who made him, And scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked Him to jealousy with foreign gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear.
18 Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful, And have forgotten the God who fathered you.
That is why the Lord sent them into the diaspora.
32:39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
40 For I raise My hand to heaven, And say, "As I live forever,
41 If I whet My glittering sword, And My hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to My enemies, And repay those who hate Me.
42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood, And My sword shall devour flesh, With the blood of the slain and the captives, From the heads of the leaders of the enemy." '
43 "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people."
The Lord will do just that, while Jesus died also for the sin of His people Israel.
"And they (Israel) will see on the One they pierced .... "
We now live in a time compared to the time of the start of the Church.
Then we saw Israel as Gods people and the start of the Church together, while Israel had not accepted the Son of God as their Messsiah. ( Starts somewhere in Matthew 13.)
Now we see the opposit happening. The Church walking away from the Lord (Laodicea)
and Jews accepting Jesus as their Saviour and Messiah.
After rapture only the false church will be left and through tribulation Israel as a nation will start wishing for their Messiah. After trib. will start the 1000 year of Christ's Kingdom over Israel and all the saints of the Church will reign with the Lord.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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BORN AGAIN,
If I understand what you are suggesting, let me ask you this, if Israel of God is not the overcoming believers contrasted against the Israel of the flesh who are not overcomers, then who are they?
Clearly there are 2 groups of people in that one verse Israel of God. And is it wise to build theology on one verse only, without any supporting verses, or supporting verses of our own choosing rather than what God is definately stating Himself?
Israel of God is:
Israel who 'walk according to this rule', what rule is that? Well we have to back up and see what the subject is, for it didn't just come from nowhere:
first a word on Greek structure. anytime you see the word "For" at the beginning of a clause like the one below, you are notified of an argument in progress. One thing against another, contrast;
Gal 6:15 FOR IN CHRIST JESUS neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but A NEW CREATURE.
That's the argument, the fruit that doctrine is the worthy walk. In this case Israel of God would have the practical outworking of the doctrine as being a new creature, one who does in doctrine and in practice 'walk according to this rule' becuase of putting on Christ, becoming A NEW CREATURE. The word Christ means anointed:
1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
But we have it clearer, that Abraham had other children too:
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
We are never left to figure anything out, ever, God always tells us all things pertaining to His subjects, never does He mix metaphores. He just doesn't do it.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ AFTER THE FLESH, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is A NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
SEE IT?
But as it is prophecy fulfilled, Israel as the figure of a tree was cut down and so too those gentiles who were graphed in un naturally. When the tree falls, anything attatched to that tree falls with it. ps, I didn't say the tree died, it was hewn down is the prophecy put it, and cut down as Paul put it. Lo-ammi as Hosea puts it.
In olive tree culture, they provoke the trees un naturally, they graphed a poor stock into a good tree, and the olive tree will generally bear fruit, the graphed in un natural branch is never expected to bear fruit. And that is the analogy which the HS was using to the people there whom it pertained. When that doesn't work, the tree is hewn down, or cut down if you like. Amazingly, the olive tree regrows and bears fruit. That is what happened. In fact, it is depicted in most every one of the kingdom parables.
That Israel was made blind for a time, their blessings being held for them in abayence, makes automatically any gentile overcomers of that age come to a hault as well, for the gentiles never had their own hope. The hope of the gentiles was to be blessed by 'Israel's spiritual things', with Israel being the preimmenent nation, the chosen channel by which the covenant promise of God these people are made a kingdom of priests to the nations. These were to be the firstfruits of Israel's blessings, but we after Israel's blatant disregard for Scriptural prophetic warnings, she is cut down, those gentiles with her, for Israel was divided and a house divided against itself cannot stand and no one can stand with her when she cannot stand.
Mat 12 TO THE JEWS
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying,
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgment to the Gentiles.
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand...An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign...and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Isa 10:33
Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
THERE IS NOTHING MORE TERRIFYING FOR ISRAEL, THAN TO HAVE THE LORD REMOVE HIS PRESENCE AND INSTRUCTION FROM THEM, TO HEAR THE DREADFULL WORDS OF ISAIAH -- ACTS 28:25-29 IS THAT FULFILLMENT:
Isa 33:9-11 TO THE JEWS
The earth mourneth and languisheth: Lebanon is ashamed and hewn down: Sharon is like a wilderness; and Bashan and Carmel shake off their fruits.
Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself.
Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.
Hos 3:4-5 TO THE JEWS
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Mat 3:10 TO THE JEWS
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:19 TO THE JEWS
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Joh 15:2 TO THE JEWS
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit 4-6
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Rom 1:13 TO THE JEWS
Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
Jam 3:12 TO THE JEWS
Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Mat 7:17 TO THE JEWS
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Rom 11:14-15 TO THE GENTILES
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Isa 27:11 TO THE JEWS
When the boughs thereof are withered, they shall be broken off: the women come, and set them on fire: for it is a people of no understanding: therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and he that formed them will show them no favor.
Rom 11:21-22 TO THE GENTILES
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:11 TO THE JEWS
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Eze 33:11 TO THE JEWS
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
TO HEAR THE DREADFULL WORDS OF ISAIAH
Isa 6:910 TO THE JEWS
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Act 28:26-29 TO THE JEWS
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear (HIM).
And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
Jud 1:12 TO THE JEWS
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Mat 3:10 TO THE JEWS
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Rom 9:29 TO THE JEWS
And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.
Rom 10:16-21 TO THE JEWS
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Rom 11:25-27 TO THE JEWS
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
That is what is written, that is what I believe.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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Watcher,
Peace in the name of the Lord,
Replacement theology?
Do you have any Scriptural evidence that God has replaced Israel with the church? or did I misunderstand?
God says to me that He has a plan underway wherein there will be found multiple spheres of blessings, that there is of His, families in the earth, in the heavenly city on the earth, and in the heavens far above all heavens of heavens:
Deu 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Tell me, please, with verse, what 'spiritual people' God has ALWAYS HAD?
Paul said in Colossians 1:25 that God chose him to be the vessel by which He would fulfill (Greek pleroo, "complete") the Word of God. That's what he did - with the revelation of the mystery [secret] given to him, God has said all He has to say to the nations. when I read things in the Bible, I know they must be fit where God has placed them, not voiding out any words, but finding the special place of import wherein God has seen fit to place them, telling us His understanding, not trying to give us our own.
Here is the one place where the word 'spiritual' is used in the OT, saying of Israel, the spiritual man is mad:
Hos 9:7 The days of visitation are come, the days of recompense are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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epouraniois, I think Watcher was alleging that I (BORN AGAIN) was proposing "replacement theology", not Watcher.
But I do not believe in "replacement theology"; I do think that the church is currently the continuation of Israel, but that the time will come when the remainder of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah will come up out of their graves and the church will merge, in the last day, and will be the enduring olive tree after that, with Jesus the Prince physically present in His holy oblation of land by Jerusalem.
Until them, the church is the continuation of Old National Israel whose administration of the kingdom of God was taken away from them in 70 A.D. and the admin was given to Jesus Christ, to rule for now from heaven:
Matthew 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Acts 10:35
But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.
The church is the continuation of the good olive tree of Israel, which currrently consists of Israelite believers and Gentile believers, until in New National Israel the church is reabsorbed and united with New National Israel.
Presumably the people who are currently in the land of Israel after 1948 are only a preparatory stage of this coming New National Israel.
epouraniois, if you want me to understand what you are saying, we probably need to do it in smaller pieces?
Thanks and God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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BORN AGAIN,
It is difficult to cover much ground without much supporting verses, the plan of God is large, and precise in its nature, but I can try to keep it to smaller pieces parts.
Surely you have some other place for the Lord's words to 'fit' then, if He didn't mean that if they didn't bear fruit they would be cut off, who is He speaking about.
Re: Israel morphing into the church, this suggests to me that God then does not keep His Word of promise when He says dozens upon dozens of times that He will not forsake Israel:
But we know He does, for Israel it is written:
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth
These are the same kings and priests Israel has the promises for throughout the Bible. NEVER IS THE CHURCH given kings or priests, never. Abraham is not mentioned with the church which is His body. The heavenly church and Israel's earthly kingdom of priests are not to be made the same unless God has so made them. Has God made them the same, or are they spoken of as being different?
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
There had never been such a thing before, but IF...THEN, they should be a peculiar people, set apart from all nations…and they didn’t, they broke the laws.
So, if, this was all that God had revealed, then we should have to admit there would be no future at all, for the Jew as a nation, they didn’t meet the conditions, and they’ve got no claim on the covenant made with the Lord. However, we do find that later on God made another covenant, and we should want to know about it.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: {Now, is this the same house of Israel? Well, it must be because God references the first covenant}
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; {we can’t spiritualize that, it is a real people God took out of a real Egypt} which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel{same people}; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;{If God had of done that in the beginning, He would half to keep it, but He didn’t, it was a test. They haven’t got the law written in their heart, and we go wrong the same way, we must search for the truth and we still go wrong. But God says He will do this} I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. {there are no if’s there, not if they keep MY law, but God says I will do it}
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. {and then God appeals to creation}
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If {here is the first IF } those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. {note those words, “a nation before me”. This is not just a blessing of individual Jews being saved by the gospel today}
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, {if you can do that, God says}I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. {what a challenge, nobody can accept it, nobody can do it, so there must then, be a future for these people, otherwise, we may as well close the Book, because God couldn’t be more emphatic and more clear}
The bottom line is that Paul received further revelation and given us to understand and ACKNOWLEDGE that this is not only a new creation, it is one made from before the foundation of the world.
Israel, chosen since, or after the foundation of the world - Mat 25:34
The church which is His body, chosen from before the foundation of the world - Eph 1:4
If Israel is the church, then God lied to them, and further lied to us saying the church has an superheavenly sphere of blessings,and is therefore not to be trusted.
I cannot buy into that.
We just read Israel will He not change His mind nor forget, but of the church He says it is in the superheavenlies:
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
At the very ending of the very last letter Paul wrote during the Acts period, the apostle tells them another people, not them, but another people will hear what they have not heard:
Rom 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
This would be revealed in Paul's prison epistles, where he explains the mystery, explaining that it is a new creation with a different shpere of blessing, one that is heavenly in it's nature and position. This is all made very clear in the Greek, and not difficult at all in the English, however we all must face the facts that when we are shown to have an understanding that differs from what Scripturally is written, then we must be grateful lest we be found a workman not rightly dividing the word of trut, ashamed.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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allright, epouraniois, let's start with these two pieces:
you write quote:
Surely you have some other place for the Lord's words to 'fit' then, if He didn't mean that if they didn't bear fruit they would be cut off, who is He speaking about.
Re: Israel morphing into the church, this suggests to me that God then does not keep His Word of promise when He says dozens upon dozens of times that He will not forsake Israel
He was referring to Old National Israel which did not bear the fruit that had been intended, showing this in figure by coming to the fig tree, and, seeing that it bore no fruit, He caused it to wither quicktly.
This was a figure of the LORD's Son having come to His vineyard, and, finding no fruit on Old National Israel, announced by the figure that Old National Israel would be withered soon, in 70 A.D. to be exact.
Then, for the time, Israel continued as the church, containing the remnant of Israelite believers (Paul's "so even today there is a remnant"), and Gentile believers.
And, just because Israel is currently "hidden" in the church, as it were, I fully agree that the house of Israel and the house of Judah will once again be "ammi" instead of the "lo-ammi" that they currently are among the nations (ethnoi). But right now they are still "lo-ammi".
Let's start there. What are you saying is wrong with this view? Thanks.
BORN AGAIN
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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Rom 11:25-27
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
cut off only is a figure of speech where Israel is compared to a tree. They are not really cut off permanently, they are asleep as a nation. For the Lord was waiting, not for individual repentance, but national repentance from Israel, which we read they shall have when they see Him whom they had pierced...
being Israel is at the time present Lo-ammi, they were cut off, as John the Baptist coming in the spirit of Elijah *if they would receive it* prophecized, what Christ declared, and what Paul pronounced, even giving us the exact moment it did happen. shall we not believe it? if not, what do we replace it with?
Quote:
He was referring to Old National Israel which did not bear the fruit that had been intended, showing this in figure by coming to the fig tree, and, seeing that it bore no fruit, He caused it to wither quicktly.
National Israel is the only Biblical kind isn't it? Aren't they that one nation which was called out *church* from the other 70 nations in Gen 12:2, &c, &c. Sure, there is always a remnant, Paul says if there weren't, then they would have been as Soddom and Gemorrah, I don't see how that affects the nation failing to repent and therefore reaching their Lo-ammi period *for a time*.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
But Israel looked and asked for a kingdom, not a church. They were already called out, which is where the word church comes from, called out.
The nations were not called out though, not until after Acts28. 28. Some partook of Israel's spiritual things, but they had no calling of their own, WE had no calling of our own until the Lord revealed an additional calling to the apostle of the nations, Paul. In those specific letters, my name is on the envelope. I can read the God's other childrens letters, but my name is not on the same envelope where the Name Israel is stamped.
Maybe your fathers remember who they are, that they are Jews, but mine do not. My fathers are not traced back to Jacob/Israel. Even if they were though, if I come to the Lord today, I do so as an individual, not as a nation. The Lord assures us He will pick up again His plan with Israel in His own time, which we know is at the 7th trumpet when He returns to the earth with His saints.
In fact, here is another difference:
When Israel is in view, there are churches plural
When the church which is His body is in view, there are no churches plural, only the one church which is His body, which is not on earth, but as it states, it is far above all. This church is one of unity, one. Israel's number is not one, it is 12. When I say the church is where Christ sits, that is because the Bible declairs it, and gives us our commission, see Eph4. 3, then read the 7 things we are to 'guard' as per Eph 4. 3, read the 7 things in Eph4. 4-6. And when reading, please take note that not one of those things we are to be found so doing can be done with any of our 5 senses. That is because we are already seen as being where He is, far above all:
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Additionally, Israel looked and shall look for the Lord's 'coming'/parousia, whereas the church does not. The church specifically looks to appear/manifest with Him when He manifest in the heavenlies:
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ
But perhaps this is too much to show so many differences all at once, or maybe I should list a bunch of them so we can get a feel for just how different the church is from the Israelite kingdom.
But isn't it enough to acknowledge that one is in resurrection, on earth, while one is on earth in the heavenly city, and another *the church* is far above all in the heavenly places.
Surely if Israels kingdom is on earth, whereas the church is in the heavenly kingdom, it becomes obvious that these are not the same places, nor the same people?
Check it out, you will not find the word church in the plural except when Israel is in view. And although Israel has many churches, they were not asking nor looking for a church, their express hope is found throughout the OT, and it is a kingdom hope, not a church hope.
The kingdon and the church are not the same thing, for God has made them seperatae.
kingdom = earthly hope of national Israelite believers
church = heavenly hope of present individual believers
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
dear epouraniois, I read the whole post. Thanks for setting all that out for me. I'll have to think about what you've said, though.
One minor comment for now. You write quote:
Israel's number is not one, it is 12.
Actually, after the death of Jacob in Misr Egypt, Israel became 13, not 12; Manasseh and Ephraim were both adopted by Jacob and became the double portion of Joseph, making 13 tribes after Jacob's death.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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True enough about Israel's name being upon the heads of Ephraim and Manessah, which goes to the double blessing...
Rev 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel
Rev 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
This is what Dr. Bullinger has to say about Biblical numerics in ref to the numbers 12 and 13:
Twelve. Denotes Governmental perfection. It is the number of factor of all numbers connected with government : whether by Tribes or Apostles, or in measurements of time, or in things which have to do with government in the heavens and the earth.
Thirteen. Denotes rebellion, apostasy, defection, dis-integration, revolution, &c. The first occurrence fixes this (Gen. 14:4); and the second confirms it (Gen. 17:25). It, and its multiples, are seen in all numbers, and in the Gematria (see above) of all names and passages that are associated with rebellion, &c.
That makes me think of the tribes named in Rev 7, and those not named!!!
Bless.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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Plus, since it appears that the Levites will live in the holy oblation of land of the Prince by Jerusalem, the land will only be divided into lots for 12 tribes north and south of the holy oblation of land, and hence presumably the names of only 12 tribes on the city.
Revelation 21:12
12And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.
In the coming new division of the land, the following tribes are mentioned:
Ezekiel 48
1. Dan
2. Asher
3. Naphtali
4. Manasseh
5. Ephraim
6. Reuben
7. Judah
--Oblation of land for Levi
8. Benjamin
9. Simeon
10. Issachar
11. Zebulun
12. Gad
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
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dear epouraniois, I see several entities, the house of Israel and the house of Judah, that is one entity together and they are both hidden among the nations right now.
Then the church is the second entity, which is bornagain from above, which is not true for the majority of the house of Israel and the house of Judah (though some of both houses are believers in Jesus the Messiah}.
The church is a "new creature", having "made of the two a new creature", even a "bornagain from above creature". Okay.
The church consists of believing Israelites-Judahites, a remnant of whom have always believed ("even now there is a remnant") and of believing Gentiles who have been grafted into or adopted into the church through the cross of Jesus. Paid for, it remains to enter in.
So right now the house of Israel and the house of Judah are hidden among the nations, and in the case of the house of Israel especially, the Bible says that "they will not find their paths" and basically "not remember who they were in earlier generations" after the house of Israel was taken to Assyria in 721 B.C. and never returned to Samaria.
This house of Israel and this house of Judah are admittedly "Israel in waiting", and then there is the church which is a separate entity? Both are existing at the same time, Israel and the church?
Did I get what you were trying to say to me or is that not it yet?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
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Peace to you through the Lord Christ Jesus,
you have opened up some additional areas, reflecting upon conspiracies:
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
This being manifest in these last days, we now see that God has not yet 'gathered' Israel, but there is a false seed who sought their name amoung the 'register' of Israel, Ezra finding 'none of the tribe of Levi', the Lord proclaiming 'the Scribes and the Pharasees sit in Moses' seat', 'ye are of your father the devil', &c &c.
God scatters, God will gather. We do not find God taking up His work with Israel again till the last trumpet. Between the time when Paul was in bonds *Acts28* for the hope of Israel and following his apostleship stewarding in the dispensation of the grace of God for you nations Eph3.1; we have an indefinate time period not mentioned in the Bible at all. 2 thousand years almost now has gone by and the Lord has yet to pick up with Israel where He left off;
The Mystery that was manifested to the saints through the ministry of the Apostle Paul had been "hid from ages and from generations". "But now is made manifest to His saints, to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this Mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ among you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:26,27).
The but now portion could not have occured at an earlier time period. So, then what is this mystery? Well, it is that God has an heavenly calling for a chosen people unto the adoption into glory. Saints in light to be specific. That word saints in light is the same word holiest of all.
Now if this weren't written and spelled out for us, it would surely be blasphemy, and that is just what they thought when the apostle made the Lord's word of truth known. They forsook Paul at the onset of the Lord's message, the very message we find which 'completes' the word of truth.
The apostle reveals a people chosen before, rather than all other chosings being after or since, the foundation of the world. This church has every blessing which is spiritual, and has these in the heavens far above all heavens. this is the meaning of my pen name from Eph1. 3.
Eph 4 says this to be our only hope. I take this to mean that if we believe we are Israel, or believe Israel to be spiritualized away somehow and the church replacing her, that it is paramount unto stealing, but we can't have it, so it is really coveting.
I think it might be due to a fear that we are somehow left out, but far from it, we receive, as the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all, more than just a glorious title, we receive every blessing in the superheavenlies which is spiritual. Every blessing Christ has to give!!! We are not forgotten, rather blessed far above all.
The Apostle connects the manifestation of the Mystery with the making known what is the riches of the glory of this Mystery among the Gentiles.
Left to ourselves, how would we answer that question? - "What is the riches of the glory of this Mystery among the Gentiles?" We should be wise if we turned at once to what is written. We could say without fear of contradiction, that "redemption through His Blood, even the forgiveness of sins" must be inc1uded, for that is "according to the riches of His grace, wherein Re hath abounded toward us" (Eph. 1:7,8). We should certainly inc1ude the "inheritance in the saints", though we could not speak in detail of what constitutes "the riches of the glory" of this inheritance (Eph. 1:18). Looking forward to "that day" when the inheritance shall be enjoyed, redemption is spoken of as "the riches of His grace," the kindness that He will show to us in the days to come is of such transcendance that the Apostle speaks of it as "the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:7).
In Colossians 1:27 he focuses attention upon one important aspect of present truth that reveals the ground upon which we may entertain such a hope: "Which is Christ in (among) you, the hope of glory". The Apostle is not here speaking of the blessed realization of the indwelling Christ, but of the dispensational change that had followed the setting aside of the children of Israel, "the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and they will hear it" (Acts 28 :28). Up till then salvation had been "of the Jews" (John 4:22). The gospel had been intimately associated with the promise made to Abraham (Gal. 3:8). What the Gentiles had heard through Peter had been, "the Word which God sent unto the children of Israel" (Acts 10:36). Even the gospel preached by Paul in Romans was "to the Jew first" (Rom. 1:16), and the Gentile believer was warned not to vaunt himself against Israel, seeing that he was but a "wild olive" grafted in among the natural branches (Rom. 11).
Colossians we are conscious of a great change. The hope that was laid up for these believers and which was made known in the truth of the gospel, had been preached to "all the world" (Col. 1:5,6), and "to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23), and it is in immediate association with this last quotation that Paul goes on to speak of his special ministry and the manifestation of the Mystery. Consequently we come back to Colossians 1:27, and learn that the very fact that Christ is now "among the Gentiles" is proved by the preaching of the gospel to them, irrespective of Israel, the once-appointed channel, now set aside. That, of itself, bespeaks a change of dispensation.
The Mystery receives a present manifestation because Christ is among the Gentiles, through the preached Word. He is the hope of glory. The Mystery receives its final manifestion when the Church of the One Body is manifested with Him in glory. It is good to keep these two passages, Colossians 1:27 and 3:4 together, and to remember that in both the present anticipation and the future realization, it is Christ Himself who is both Manifester and Hope.
The mystery revealed to Paul cannot be found pre prison epistles, period. Search and see, trust in the Lord who has written it. Therefore, I ask that everyone at least consider reading the following with the purpose to search and see. Please note that I am quoting, not exchanging the words for what my idea and understanding is:
It is evident to all that God has made known His will "at sundry times and in divers manners" (Hebrews 1:1,2). He also kept certain things secret, and revealed them from time to time according to His purpose and counsels. Hence the word musterion is connected with several concealed or secret things in the New Testament.
It was used of the secrets of the kingdom; which had been concealed, until the Lord revealed them to His disciples (not to the People) in Matthew 13:10,11. It had not before been known that the kingdom would be rejected, and that there would be a long interval between that rejection and its being set up in glory. This was concealed even from the prophets who foretold it (1Peter 1:10-12).
In Romans 11 it is used in connection with the duration of Israel's blindness. That blindness itself was not a secret, for it had been foretold in Isaiah 6:9,10. But the duration of the blindness was kept a "secret" from Isaiah and only revealed through
Paul (Romans 11:25).
It was used of a fact connected with resurrection, which had never before been made known to the sons of men. The Lord had spoken of it to Martha (John 11:25,26), but though she believed it, she did not understand that to those who should be alive and remain to His Coming the Lord would be "the life", and they would "never die" (verse 26).
The Thessalonians who "received the word" were not left in ignorance of it
(1Thessalonians 4:13), for the Lord's words in John 11:25,26. were explained to them.
But in 1Corinthians 15:51the secret was fully and plainly shown; and it was that "we shall not all sleep". Up to that moment the universal belief had been that we must all die (compare Hebrews 9:27). Thenceforward it was revealed and made known for faith that all would not die, but that those who are alive and remain (literally; remain over) unto the Lord's Coming will not die at all (compare Philippians 3:14).
Side by side with these Divine secrets there was the secret of the [foretold]
lawlessness (2Thessalonians 2:7compare Daniel 12:4). It was already working during
the dispensation covered by "Acts"; and had the nation repented at the call of those
"other servants" of Matthew 22:4(Acts 2:38; 3:12-26; etc.), those secret counsels of
"the lawless one" and "the transgressors" would have "come to the full" (Daniel 8:23). But now they are postponed and in abeyance until the appointed time.
But "the great secret" which concerns us to-day was not revealed until after the
close of that dispensation covered by "Acts". (See Acts 28:17-31). Paul was not commissioned to put in writing the "purpose" of God which was "before the
foundatin of the World", until that dispensation was ended.
What this "great secret" was can only be learned fully from the Prison Epistles. There alone can we find the things which had been concealed and kept secret "since the world began" (Romans16:25); "which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men" (Ephesians 3:5); "which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God" (Ephesians 3:9); "which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest" (Colossians 1:26), where "now" (Greek; nun) with the preterit = just now, recently.
The special Scriptures which describe this secret are the postscript of Romans . Ephesians 3:1-12. Colossians 1:24-27.16:25,26. As to the great secret itself, it is certain that it cannot refer to the blessing of Gentiles in connection with Israel. This is perfectly clear from the fact that that was never a secret. Both blessings were made known at the very same time (Genesis 12:3); and this well-known fact is constantly referred to in the Old Testament. See Genesis 22:18; 26:4; etc. Deuteronomy 32:8. Psalms 18:49; 67:1,2; 72:17; 117:1. Isaiah 11:10; 49:6. Luke 2:32. Romans 15:8-12.
But the secret revealed in the Prison Epistles was never the subject of previous revelation. In Ephesians 3:5. it is stated to be "now revealed". This cannot mean that it had been revealed before, but not in the same manner as "now"; because it is stated that it had never been revealed at all. It concerns the Gentiles; and it was "revealed unto His holy apostles 4and prophets by the Spirit", that the Gentiles should be joint-heirs, and a joint-body, and [joint] partakers of the promise in Christ through the gospel (Ephesians 3:5,6).
We cannot know the whole purpose of God in keeping this concealed all through the ages; but one thing we know, and that is: it is made known for "the obedience of faith", or for "faith-obedience" (Romans 16:26). It is a subsequent revelation; and the question is, do we believe it and obey it by acting according to it?
Abraham had several Divine revelations made to him. From this call in Genesis 11 he was a "righteous" man. In chapter 12 he believed God concerning His promises of the future. In chapter 13 he believed God concerning the promise of the Land. But in chapter 15 God made a further revelation concerning the seed which He would give him; and it is written, "Abraham believed in the Lord, and it was counted (or imputed) unto him for righteousness".
Even so with ourselves and the subsequent revelation of the mystery in the Prison Epistles. Let us believe it, and we may be sure it will be counted unto us for something, for some blessing, which those who refuse to believe it will lose .
Ephesians gives us gentiles
the mystery of his will
by revelation...the mystery
the mystery of Christ
the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God
a great mystery...concerning Christ and the church.
to make known the mystery of the gospel
the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest
the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles
the acknowledgement of the mystery of God
the mystery of the faith
the mystery of godliness
And friends, if you do not fully understand these mysteries, then why not? They are written in the only letters ever written for the hope of the gentiles. Even Israel must come to the Lord as a gentile, for the partakers of the fellowship of the mystery have no nation set apart from another, we all come to the Lord on equal and common ground or do what? Just any way we choose? Can we take what is written only to Israel for the hope of her Kingdom promise and just choose to belong to that company of called out ones? Are we to just ignore this heavenly calling which is given only to the church which is His body and say no, I want to be graphed into Israel? Is that an option we are given or are we given our own and seperate hope?
Isa 10:33 Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Posted by Grams (Member # 5169) on
:
quote:
2Ti 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
At our Church we believe in this..
Their was a time past....
But Now
Ages to Come
And the whole bible is to us..
But the whole bible is not for us.
We read the whole bible!
Genesis to Acts - Time past
Romans to Philemon - But Now
Hebrews - Revelation - Ages to Come
You take a look at who the books are
written to. And from who
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
Refreshed in the Lord Christ Jesus. BUT NOW, is a study I often recomend.
"While the Word of God is written FOR all persons, and FOR all time, yet it is true that not every part of it is addressed To all persons or ABOUT all persons IN all time". (How to Enjoy the Bible, Dr. E. W. Bullinger).
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
This next one is very important, in the last of the kingdom epistles to the Jews, the apostle makes known the great delay is to come for want of the nations repentance and turning:
Rom 15:23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Right division distinguishes dispensations. It does not confound Kingdom with Church, Gentile with Jew, Mystery with Gospel, Earth with Heaven. The books of the Bible were all originally addressed to some particular hearer or company, and before we take all that is written in the Scriptures as truth for ourselves, we should observe several things which in reality will be but the application of "Right Division".
1 Cor 7: some say marriage is wrong because of what Paul says in this chapter. If we hold to it, what shall we say of his wonderful words concerning husband and wife in Ephesians five? Or of his advice that the younger women should not only marry, but marry again if left as widows? (1 Tim. 5:9-14). The right interpretation is clearly that Paul's advice in 1 Corinthians seven was true AT THE TIME, because the Second Coming of Christ was expected to take place during the lifetime of some of his hearers. He speaks as he does, "because of the present necessity", and because "the time is short". When writing to the Thessalonians, he rightly identifies himself with the imminent hope of the Lord's coming by saying: "We which are alive" (1 Thess. 4).
The "present necessity" of 1 Corinthians seven is no longer applicable on account of the failure of Israel and the suspension of their hope. So in 1 Corinthians eleven, the teaching of the chapter was only true while the hope of that calling was still imminent. When the people of Israel passed into their present condition of blindness, as they did in Acts twenty-eight, their hope passed with them, not to be revived until the end of the days, when the Apocalypse is fulfilled. Meanwhile a new dispensation has come in, a dispensation associated with a "mystery" and unconnected with Israel. In the very nature of things a change of dispensation means a change of calling. It introduces a new sphere and a fresh set of promises.
Excerpts and tweaks from the Berian Expositor, cira 1920ish.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
dear epouraniois, please try to deal out smaller pieces.
Let me ask you if I've understood something from what I was able to read of your material.
Are you saying that the church is going to heaven (has "a heavenly destination") which is different from the house of Israel and the house of Judah will receive, which I think you said was an "earthly, kingdom destination" (my paraphrase of what you said).
Is that correct, or not?
Please don't make your reply too long. It may take a few smaller pieces to understand the whole, if indeed what you are saying is true.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
Praises always to the Most High God and Lord Christ Jesus.
Yes BA, I am reafirming that what was hid in God, and revealed after Israel's blindness and subsequent divorce at the end of Acts, 62-64AD, was for the first time revealed that God had a chosen in Him and adopted church from before the foundation of the world. That these are different in company from the people called out and chosen who's father is Abraham, where the kingdom is heavenly in charactor but earthly in position for overcomers falling within the dispensation of promise. It is earthly in charactor and nature for others. Both are OT prophecy to be filled in resurrection. The apostle then introduces the church of the one body where Christ is the head and the church is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. The sphere of blessing is different. The position is far above all heavens of heavens with every blessing that is spirital that God has. Each of these 3 spheres of blessings are marked with a golden thread that runs through the Scriptures by the words "calling", "hope", "adoption", "inheritance".
Sorry for the long posts, I have so very much to share for those who desire to do the digging, for the reward is great, and the quicking is even NOW.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
Well, the children of disobeydience were the apostate Jews. Paul wrote that all in Asia had turned away. Can you imagine, first they thought they got rid of the problem, the killed Christ, then He rose to the living and sent the 12 to His people with miracles and signs and wonders, the Lord working with them, healing &c, then to top that off, when they still refuse to repent and turn, Gentile dogs are used to provoke them by, they still bore no fruit, and finally when they think they have peace, the apostles killed, imprisoned, Peter driven to Babylon, Paul all locked away, things were looking pretty good, then The Salvation of God is sent to all nations, Israel not in mention, nor their fathers, God then becomes, not the God of Abraham...BUT the God of Christ. And as that title is different, is better, the sent one then says all these nations are a new creation with a heavenly sphere to be seated with Christ in the superheavenlies far above all. They had no doctrine to turn to, nothing of instruction to what they should do if they didn't receive the kingdom. All there discipline, instruction, doctrines, all of it had the hope of the kingdom of heaven on earth.
Well, this was just too much. The priest taught to gentiles wild things, today non Jews are priests in some churches, where they pray to the dead, dress and worship statues, Baal worship in cerimony unkown to the followers, claiming the head of the church is a man on earth, &c &c.
All of that because of their inability to desire and receive the truth. All in Asia had turned away. Only Luke was with Him. Be not ashamed of me the apostle writes, hold fast the form of sound words you have heard of me, he says.
It all came true. The city destroyed, 'O Israel, why wilt thou die' return... But they did not.
The church and the kingdom are different in every way. They have the one connection of being born unto sin in need of the redeemer who has purchased us all into one of the adoptions by the blood of Christ risen from the dead, the firstfruits of all them that sleep.
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