This is topic Deviating from Biblical Christianity - The Good the Bad and the Ugly in forum Bible Topics & Study at Christian Message Boards.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004098
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
This was posted on another board and I thought that it was really good. I am going to post it in sections for ease of reading:
The reason for this article on Apostasy in the Church
Most of the major Christian denominations have deviated from biblical Christianity in one way or another. It is not the purpose of this article to point a finger at any one group, or to tell true Christians to get out of their denomination or not to fellowship. I understand that this article will not win me any popularity contest but very few others are talking about the apostasy in the church institutions that identifies with Christianity and the practices within that deviate from true biblical Christianity.
The one true Church of God is interwoven in all Christian denominations. I have noticed in my own experiences that there is at least a small core of believers in just about every church in every denomination. I have at one time in my life been part of all the major groups listed below and I have first hand knowledge of what they practice (except the Orthodox).
My purpose is to expose the darkness so that the true light of the gospel of Christ will shine. I do not believe that true Christians can significantly change an overwhelmingly apostate carnal Christian church. What we can do however, is not be deceived by Satan or support what is not of God in our churches.
Who is a Christian?
There are nearly two billion people on the earth who identify themselves as Christians, but there are significantly fewer that are really part of the body of Christ.
Jesus said you can not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you are born of the Spirit. The birth of the Spirit occurs when a person truly believes that Jesus is the son of God and trusts in the finished work of Jesus on the cross to atone for their sins and to justify them before God.
The scriptures say you are saved by faith, not by your own works, lest anyone should boast.
We cannot judge if a person who identifies with Christianity is really trusting in Christ or in their religion to save them. If they are trusting in their religion to save them they are no more part of the body of Christ than a Jew or Moslem or any other religion.
Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus. This relationship does not depend on having all the correct theology but correct theology will result in more fruitful Christianity.
Religion is basically Satanic.
All religion contains methods, rituals and practices for man to become good enough to ascend or evolve to God. All religion thus believes in the need to become righteous. True Christianity is the complete opposite. True Christianity believes in God's righteousness and that He was good enough to become a man, die for our sins and to breach the gap sin made between God and man. True Christianity believes God provides a free gift of eternal life to anyone who trusts in Him. Those who do trust Him are saved by His grace by having faith in His promise to give us a Savior.
Apostate Christianity (departure from true biblical Christianity) in its final analysis cannot be distinguished from any other religion in the world in its quest for God. No wonder apostate Christianity will be willing to join with all the other religions of the world. These nominal Christians think they are Christian just because it is part of their culture and because they believe in a higher power. Even demons believe in a higher power. Apostate Christianity has nothing to do with a born again experience with the evidence of a Holy Spirit changed life.
Some in religious training were taught that Jesus died for their sins and that they are saved or justified, but in their lives there is no evidence by works of the Spirit. Do they really have Jesus or do they only have head knowledge about Him? Do they have Churchianity or Christianity?
Those that trust in their own good works to save them are self deceived and still in their sins. If there ever was a religion that could allow man to fellowship with God it was Judaism but the requirement was to keep all of God's law. The laws of Judaism did not achieve salvation because in man's fallen state he could never keep the whole law. Man's righteousness and good works can never bring about eternal life with God because man always falls short of the required perfection necessary to dwell in the presence of a Holy God. Yet Judaism did not fail because through the tribe of Judah a Savior from God was born.
True Christianity
Jesus being born a man but being also God perfectly fulfilled the law. He Himself had no sin but He obediently paid the price for the curse on man under God's perfect law. Atonement for sin that was brought into the world by Adam's disobedience was paid for by the obedience of God's Lamb by death on the cross. At the cross he took the curse upon Himself for it is written "cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree" (Gal 3:13). Death could not hold the Creator and He rose to begin a new creation and in doing so condemned the old fallen creation to its eternal destruction. Those who trust Him are born again into this new new creation of believers called the "Body of Christ". After we are born into this new creation, God no longer sees us as the sinners we were but sees us as the sinless "body and bride of Christ". (The scripture says in marriage the two shall become one flesh - Paul used this as the example of Christ and the Church - Eph 5: 31- 32.)
"True Christianity is then believing that God's promise to provide a Savior was fulfilled in His Son Jesus." This promise of a Savior and Messiah to restore man's fellowship with God is integrated throughout all scripture.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
What do the large Christian denominations now confess?
Unfortunately, most of the large Christian denomination leadership has become infiltrated by the elite of Satan and much of the institutional church has fallen away from the true faith. Some have a different Jesus then the Jesus of scripture. After the rapture of the faithful Christians the apostate church will go on without skipping a beat. In following paragraphs I give my reasons for saying there is now apostasy in the church throughout the institutional churches that call themselves Christian.
The Roman Catholic Church.
The membership of this church is more than half of all identified as Christianity (over one billion people) but the majority of Catholics baptized into the denomination do not even regularly practice their religion. Additionally, many Catholics know little about their own beliefs or they ignore the doctrine. Many integrate it with native pagan religions.
This denomination teaches that you are saved by grace, faith and works. God's grace is something you must earn by keeping the church sacraments, traditions and rituals. The priests of the church are successors of the apostles and have all of Christ's authority on earth. The priests are grace dispensers and the church is infallible. If you accumulate enough merit you will go to heaven. Otherwise you will have to go through the fires of purgatory or to hell. The writings of the Church fathers and the traditions of the Church have equal weight with the Holy Scriptures. The members are in the process of being saved by their works of merit.
Problems:
Many of the church's traditions and practices are contrary to scripture proving that this church is far from being infallible. Satan with his wolves in sheep's clothing has infiltrated this church and corrupted it. The Catholic Church has become like corrupted Judaism that Jesus condemned. It is largely a church of Pharisees and of blind ritual -- a church of idolatry, rote prayer, and traditions of men.
The seven sacraments
The seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church are rituals for grace. The church believes that the ritual itself will dispense grace from God. It appears that the church puts the cart before the horse. There is no spiritual grace in ritual, but power from the Spirit does come from a changed heart.
The sacrament of the baptism of infants is not scriptural or logical. The ritual of baptism is for identifying believers with the death and resurrection of Jesus. Babies do not believe. True baptism is dying with Christ and being born into a new creation called the "body of Christ".
The sacrament of the Eucharist should be a memorial and remembrance of Christ's broken body and shed blood for us. There is no place in scripture that says we are to offer Christ's body on the altar daily or that a wafer actually becomes the body of Jesus, and by putting Him in your stomach you will receive Him into your body or get grace from Him.
The Sacrament of contrition and penance is contrary to scripture. The scriptures say that Jesus is the only intermediator between God and man. The doctrine that you can have your sins forgiven by confession to a priest who then intermediates and gives absolution if you do the penance he dictates, abolishes what Jesus did for us on the cross for all sin. Who is sinless enough to intermediate for us with God except Jesus, and which sin did Jesus not pay for?
This church teaches that the sacrament of confirmation is where you get the power of the Holy Spirit. The scriptures however, teach that you get the Holy Spirit when you believe and you get power to do His will when you earnestly pray for it.
Marriage is a union between two people. There is no reason given in scripture for it to be a Church sacrament or for the ceremony even to be performed by the clergy -- not that the practice of getting married by the elder of any church is wrong.
The ordination of a special priesthood is contrary to scripture. The scripture teaches that we are all kings and priests in Christ Jesus.
The sacrament of Extreme Unction indicates that the dying get some special grace by having a priest say some ritualistic prayers over them. This is a distortion of the true biblical practices of elders praying over the sick.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
The cult of Mary
A large sect in this church teaches that Mary is co-Redeemer and that she was without sin. The scripture says that there is salvation in no other name than Christ Jesus. The scriptures also say that all have sinned including Mary. Jesus said that John the Baptist was the greatest of all born of women. Why did He not say His mother was if she was without sin? When the natural mother of Jesus and His brothers (yes, Jesus had brothers according to scripture) thought He went crazy and wanted to talk to Him, Jesus said His mother and brothers are those that do the will of His Father. Mary is not the mother of God, she is the mother of the natural body that God incarnated. Mary is not the mother of the Church. She had to believe to be saved and to receive the Holy Spirit and become a member of the "body of Christ" like everyone else. How can Mary be the mother of a membership that includes herself?
The idea that Mary is interceding for the Christians and appearing to many and giving statements to people that are often contrary to the scriptures is an insult to Mary. The bottom line of these apparitions at the very least is a message of salvation by works which will save no one. Furthermore, many Catholics are now into witchcraft and things forbidden in the Bible because they believe in these lies. Much of what is being said by apparitions attributed to Mary parallels pagan new age teachings and doctrine of demons. Those into Mariology like to reduce the God of the Universe to a child on Mary's knee but He is a consuming fire and the only intermediator between God and man.
Saying the Rosary with its "Hail Mary's" is rote prayer to someone other than God. This is idolatry! Jesus said to pray to the Father. If He wanted people to pray to his earthly mother He would have said so. Furthermore, how in the world could anyone really believe that Mary would want to hear the same prayer over and over and over again? Do people think that she or they get power from their chanting? This is witchcraft! Even common sense should tell them that no one wants to hear the same thing over and over again. I think the real Mary of the Bible would tell the people who chant these prayers to shut up.
Many times the real reasons for the rote prayer is not even addressed in the prayer service. For example, when Catholics pray "Hail Mary's" in front of abortion clinics, this ritualistic chanting leaves the body of Christ open to much ridicule by unbelievers and all of this is a counterfeit substitution for real prayer to God about the real situation needing prayer. The scripture tells us not to say rote prayers as the heathen do who think they will be heard for their many words. We are told that God knows what we need before we ask. Our requests should be like a child toward his Father. Try saying the same thing fifty or more times to your earthly father or mother daily and note their response to you.
The "queen of heaven" was worshiped in ancient Babylon. She also had a child in her arms. This was not Mary and Jesus but they were demon gods. God did not have anything good to say about the people who worshiped her (see references). Obviously some Catholics have used the blessed name of Mary of scripture to incorporate pagan Babylonian practices and beliefs into the Church.
The doctrine of purgatory
The doctrine of purgatory is an insult to Jesus and the finished work that He did on the cross to pay for the sins of the whole world. If we sin He is faithful to forgive us our sins if we confess them to Him. Scripture says that there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Jesus either paid for all sins past, present, and future or He paid for none of them. Scripture teaches no other doctrine.
Many other heresies
In much of the third world Catholicism has been integrated with pagan witchcraft and no major correction is coming from Rome. Yet the Vatican rails against those who teach true Christianity to those doing such things
The scapular is worn by some Catholics who believe that salvation can come from something they hang around their neck
Holy water, medals, holy pictures and objects blessed by a priest is simply belief in witchcraft
The Pope as the vicar of Christ is not scriptural and many Popes have been anti-Christ. Peter was not the first Pope. The first real Pope was Leo 1 about 400 years later. Peter was an apostle to the Jews. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles from which our denominations of today descended
The present Pope has called Moslems brothers, kissed the Koran and said that Moslems are on a path to God. He has formed a close friendship with the top leader of Eastern Pagan religion and then he tells Catholics that salvation of the earth comes through Mary. Next, he warns Catholics about the Christian evangelicals who teach the Bible. He welcomes non believers in Christ as brothers and does not rescind the many condemnations made by the Catholic Church against Protestant believers. This is not Christian leadership it is the type of anti-Christ leadership that Paul warned Christians to beware of
Many Catholic Churches even allow gambling and drinking on the church premises to raise funds
The Catholic Church has a wretched history and continues countless heretical teachings. Read "The Women Rides the Beast" by Dave Hunt for more detailed information.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
The bottom line
The Roman Catholic Church as an institution is mostly apostate and leads very few people to the true Jesus of scriptures. The majority in this church do not even practice Catholicism. Most that do, only have a religion and not Jesus. There are some in this church that have been born of the Holy Spirit but many of these are not producing the fruit that they should. The good works they think they do in many cases are nothing more than empty rituals and practices contrary to God's will. After the rapture of true believers, what is left of the Roman Catholic Church will become the head of the great harlot religious system that will bring in the Antichrist and his false prophet. The majority of this church (Thyatira in the book of Revelation) will be tried by fire in the great tribulation (the real purgatory for Catholics).
Commendations:
+ Catholic charities
+ They preserved the scriptures
+ Church discipline
+ Strong community orientation
+ Social Programs
+ Hates abortion
+ Teaches against the faithless practice of birth control
+ They still teach some of the essential doctrines of the faith
+ Strong school system that still teaches moral absolutes
+ Believes scriptures are God inspired
The Orthodox Churches
These churches have about one hundred fifty million followers.
This church is much like the Roman Catholics although many of the Roman Catholic heresies are not taught. However they have more heresies of their own. They teach that members are saved by the teachings and traditions of the church, by the sacraments of the church, and through praying to icons. The essential doctrine of being saved by faith is not taught. This institutional church is mostly apostate and the Church in general has done few good works on the earth.
I believe this is Jesus' message to the Catholic and Orthodox Church.
Rev 2:18 And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet are like unto burnished brass:
19 I know thy works, and thy love and faith and ministry and patience, and that thy last works are more than the first.
20 But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.
21 And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication.
22 Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of her works.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works.
24 But to you I say, to the rest that are in Thyatira, as many as have not this teaching, who know not the deep things of Satan, as they are wont to say; I cast upon you none other burden.
25 Nevertheless that which ye have, hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:
27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:
28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
for additional references check my scripture references and see: "all the letters of Paul in the New Testament"
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
The Protestants
There are about seven hundred to eight hundred million others that say they are Christians. Most of these call themselves Protestants, some of those labeled as Protestants are demonic cults. The majority of Protestants are in the large liberal Protestant denominations.
The overwhelming majority of the people in the liberal Protestant denominations have never had a born again experience nor do their lives reflect that God is indwelling them. Most of them do not regularly fellowship with other believers or attend services. Many that do attend services are Sunday Christians. There is no fellowship with Jesus or each other outside the church service.
For the most part their Christianity is cultural and the relationship they have with God is superficial. Many believe in humanism, socialism, evolution, and the basic goodness of man rather then what the scriptures teach. Few people in the liberal denominations know the essentials of their own faith. Many believe that all religion leads to God.
(Within the Protestants there are about three hundred million Evangelicals and Pentecostal Protestants that have for the most part kept the true faith. The things listed below should not apply to them. I write about their own unique problems in a later paragraph.)
Problems:
Most believe that people are saved into the church through infant baptism, contrary to scripture
Some believe that people are saved by the ritual of baptism
Many have retained much of the heretical doctrines of the Catholics
Most lord the clergy over the laity
Some do away with the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
Some put men under the authority of women contrary to scriptures
Some condone abortion
Many have no salvation message and preach only a social gospel
Too many churches put a picture of a Norwegian on their wall and call him Jesus
Many think they are Christians because that is their tradition and culture
Some think that Christianity is just one of many ways to God
Some churches teach humanism instead of the teachings of Christ
Some teach a message of materialism
Some do not believe that Jesus was God
Some think that Christ is a consciousness and Jesus will not return physically (unity)
Some teach that man is a perfect spirit and all we see is an illusion (Christian Science)
Some cults make Jesus a lesser God. Mormons and Jehovah witnesses
Most are amillennial and do not teach the imminent return of Christ
Some teach doctrines of satanic psychology
Some are state supported churches that are spiritually dead
Most churches have no discipline or accountability for its membership
Some teach that the Church has replaced Israel and allegorize or spiritulize prophetic scripture
Some let flagrant sinners lead the flock
Commendations:
+ Some are community orientated
+ Some have Christian education
+ Many still believe in the infallibility of scripture
+ Most still confess most of the essential doctrines of the faith
+ Some support missionaries
+ Some have good youth and social programs
I believe the message from Jesus to these churches is:
Rev 3:1 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and thou art dead.
2 Be thou watchful, and establish the things that remain, which were ready to die: for I have {1} found no works of thine perfected before my God. {1) Many ancient authorities read not found thy works}
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
Rev 3:14¶ And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
The Evangelicals
Many of the Evangelicals have had a true born again experience and those that really believe are part of the one true Church. The following problems may not qualify as true apostasy from the faith but this deviation from the truths of true biblical Christianity by adding man-made doctrines and legalism is causing great harm to the Church.
Problems:
Many Evangelicals place too much emphasis on self reliance instead of relying on the Holy Spirit
Success seminars are taught on some church properties as if they were biblical doctrine
Many have introduced psychotherapy and its underlining psychologies in their counseling programs and replace Godly counsel with satanic theories
Some who call themselves evangelicals still embraced the mainline theology that the Church fulfills the promises that were given to natural Israel without condition. They say there is no future Kingdom on earth from Jerusalem contrary to many scripture passages that say there is a restoration on earth for natural Israel.
Some have little or no church discipline
Some have occult-like inner healing and birthing seminars
Some compromise essentials of the Christian faith for unity among denominations
Many pastors job-shop for materialistic or prestigious positions or run away from problems and divorce the flock they were called to serve
Many flocks divorce the elder over petty squabbles
The secondary leadership in the church too often is picked because of their position in the community or the size of their bank account
Some worship the idol of money and care more about their building programs than evangelism of the lost
many churches put a picture of a Norwegian on the wall and call him Jesus
Most have a country club mentality. They have wonderful fellowship and they have many programs for those in the club but they do little about improving the community they live in either spiritually or physically
Most have now replaced real Bible study with study of quarterly magazines about Bible passages
Many preach that all who drink any alcoholic beverages are sinning. Some even will not allow into their membership or will remove from their membership those who profess to use alcohol. They ignore or spin the fact that the Savior was called a winebibber because He drank wine and that Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for his health. They also ignore the Old Testament scripture that says wine was given to make the heart glad. Contrary to the New Testament Greek, the words for grape juice in Hebrew are very specific as to whether it is fermented or unfermented grape juice. Common sense logic indicates that the scripture would not speak of drinking wine in excess and choosing elders that do not drink too much wine if drinking fermented wine was not in the permissive will of God under moderation. This practice was in the early church and is still is in most Christian denominations who have not bought into this man-made legalism. Those in this group that say the wine addressed was actually unfermented grape juice are not being logical about the context of these scripture passages. Some just need to stop repeating doctrines that they swallowed from legalistic teachers and study the context of all the passages themselves. Alcohol abuse is a sin but the Church needs to be truthful and credible and should not unduly put its members on guilt trips. They should not label people as sinners who in faith are generally practicing something that in moderation actually could be a health benefit to them
Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful such as drinking, smoking, dancing, watching movies or TV or even listening to certain Christian music. Some do not even allow musical instruments in church but these same churches ignore actions of the flesh like gluttony, gossip and judging everyone as sinners who have the greater faith to believe that God does not abide by their list of man made forbidden activities
Many, to be all inclusive and to reach non-believers, have made their worship service on Sunday to be a time to entertain rather than a time to feed the flock, worship God, and to provide the message of the true way to salvation to the lost
Some apply the tithe system of government for Israel to the Church. They teach that Christians are required to tithe to their church as if this is New Testament truth. It is not! There is not a word about tithing in New Testament instruction to the Church but there is teaching about free will giving. If you want to teach it as an example-fine-but what many fail to understand is that God gave individuals in the Church the gift of giving and most Christian funding is funded by such individuals. It is a well known fact that teaching on tithing does not have a long term impact on the amount of giving in the Church. This teaching unduly puts guilt and burdens on the poor that God never intended. It also tells the rich that it is in God's will for them to use 90 percent for themselves and their living style when they should and could do much more. When the Church in Jerusalem was in poverty, did the members tithe or did funds come from others moved by the Holy Spirit to give? When people on assistance are given exactly what they need to live on by charities or by government through the donations and taxes that comes from others, should the church then be robbing the donors and the poor by telling them to give ten percent of these funds to their church organization? I can build a better case from scripture that the the Church itself should be giving a tithe of its income to its needy members than the needy giving a tithe to the Church. If you still insist on teaching people to tithe as Israel did. You also should know Israel had three tithes and following that example will require your members to give about 22 percent of their increase not 10 percent. (good luck!)
Many do not fully understand that the Christians are the temple of God. Their building is a building, not a holy sanctuary. The people who make up the Church are the holy sanctuary. There is no special grace for those who come to the front of the building to pray. This practice is fine as a testimony that one has responded to a call to be saved, to follow a church ordinance or to be prayed with by an elder, but God is not anymore present in the front of the building than He is anywhere else. God's sanctuary is in His people and He is not more present in the front of any building.
Many have now bought into the seeker-friendly church growth movement which is driven by leaders that are under the influence of the heretical teachings of people like Robert Shuller. They knowingly or unknowingly use new age language, concepts and paraphrases of the Bible that twist scripture. The leadership in general sees the Church ruling on earth before the return of Christ and they tell their people that studying future bible prophecy is a distraction
Commendations:
+ Strong Christian education
+ Some discipleship
+ Some evangelism
+ A good grasp on the doctrine of salvation
+ They all keep the essential doctrines of the faith
+ Strong missionary support
+ Belief in the infallibility of Gods word
+ Bible centered services
+ Some community orientation/home fellowship groups
+ Charity
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
With all due respect Linda, don't you think this thread should be in the Exposing False Teaching forum?
There is a heading in that thread which reads.
Christian BBS Exposing False Teaching
To expose and debate false teachings of today! Please use this forum for this and not the Bible Study forum.
I would appreciate your kind consideration.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
The Pentecostals
Like the Evangelicals most of the Pentecostals and Charismatics have confessed Jesus as Lord and are born of the Spirit. Of all these groups, Pentecostals live out their faith the most, but lack of discipline and accountability in the Church has given rise to quite a bit of deviant Christianity. Some of their beliefs and practices have separated them from other true Christians and limited their growth. Some of it is occult and parallels new age teaching. The main problem with Pentecostals seems to be a lack of discernment, because many have become incredibly gullible to every new whim of doctrine.
A few decades ago most of the Charismatics split into four camps. One camp stayed with true biblical Christianity the other camp went on to experience-based belief and have gone off into a ever descending spiral of more and more error and even doctrine of demons. The third camp calls themselves "Word Churches" they have "embraced name it and claim it" theology. The forth camp is those who have bought into Kingdom now/Reconstruction/Dominion theology that does away with premillennial beliefs, and the literal reading of unfulfilled prophetic scripture and replaces it with the theology that the Church will rule on earth before Jesus returns. In some of these churches, the camps overlap and it gets really hard to sort it all out.
Problems:
Most confuse being filled with the Spirit for service, with Spirit baptism and teach people that they get the Holy Spirit in a separate experience after conversation, as if you can separate Jesus and the Spirit (there is one God). Many have back rooms where by emotional effort, peer pressure and trying to speak in tongues they try to get you the Holy Ghost
Many say the only initial evidence of being born of the spirit is speaking in tongues and say other Christians that haven't had this experience are not born of the spirit. By this doctrine they divide the body of Christ and by saying that Evangelical Christians do not have the Holy Spirit they insult the Spirit that is obviously working through all born again believers
Many appoint new converts and the unproved to positions of leadership contrary to scripture and many of these cause great ruin to the Church
In many churches there is little accountability and the leadership often goes astray
Many are ritualistic. Even though most of the members came out of ritualistic churches like Catholicism and Liberal Protestantism they have incorporated new rituals back into the Church. Some of these new rituals are praying and singing in tongues during the service, anointing everything with oil to get rid of evil spirits, raising of hands as the only correct position of worship, slaying in the spirit, casting out demons and healing lines
Many have rejected the priesthood of Catholicism but then created a new special priesthood of anointed leaders
Some claim to be prophets and make prophetic statements but their prophecies do not come true, yet they are still embraced as prophets by the leadership and most members
Too many in this movement go to the traveling circus clowns like Benny Hinn to find phony healing instead of asking for the spiritual elders of the Church to pray so God may really heal them
Some think you can become a prophet by self appointment and self will. They also think you can learn how to be a prophet by going to a prophetic school
Too many of the leaders are con artists and buffoons who fleece the sheep and open the body of Christ to unnecessary ridicule
Too many of the leaders are hypnotists or loud mouth bully control freaks that coerce the church into altered states of reality and emotionalism
Too many confessed conversions are by coercion, peer pressure and emotionalism. Many are pressured to do what the leaders ask and soon fall away because their confessed conversion was not genuine
Too many of the leaders twist the meanings of scripture to support a pet or even deviant doctrine
Some teach emotional experience is just as reliable as scripture
Some teach name it and claim it and positive confession -- "if you believe it you will receive it"
Some teach that we are now gods and we have God like power in our words. They assert that we can speak things into existence
Some teach spiritual laws and that God is subject to them and thus make God someone to be manipulated by following some set formula designed by men
Some teach that faith is believing in belief. They teach you will receive what you believe (faith in faith)
Some claim healing that never happened, hoping that this confession will really bring it about. Others proclaim hearsay about healing from others as gospel truth
Some deny the triune nature of God taught throughout scripture
Some teach the King James translation is the only inerrent version (errors and all). Many teach that the King James Bible is the only correct translation and that other honest translations of scripture are Satanic
Some add to "salvation by faith" the false doctrine of "being saved by works of obedience"
Some say the ritual of water baptism by immersion with a preacher saying the words "I baptize you into the name of Jesus Christ" is required for salvation and say all those baptized by sprinkling or baptized into the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not saved
Some believe that doctrines taught by their denomination are essential for salvation and thus rule out all other Christians as even being Christian
Some take an obscure scripture and make it a doctrine (like handling snakes)
Some claim to cast demons out of true Christians
Some allow women to be pastors and to rule over men contrary to scripture
Some make railing accusations against Satan for sins of the flesh and don't take personal responsibility for sin in their life
Some now follow teaching that every disaster in the US is linked to Israel. As if God allows tit for tat disasters to come on the US for every dealing with unbelieving Israel. Even in the ancient history of Israel when God brought judgment on the enemies of Israel it was first spoken of by the prophets and the judgments came in God's own timing. If one follows this thinking to its logical conclusion, all the disasters in the world are related to Israel and current events and not to a fallen world. Otherwise, why single out the US who really is Israel's best friend? These teachers search long and hard after every disaster and can always find some obscure link to a dealing the US had with the state of Israel. They are especially busy in the fall when it is hurricane season. This teaching is not credible and it opens Christian Zionism up to much ridicule
Some Pentecostals still follow the teachings of those who claim there are hidden equal distance codes in the Bible even after this theory has been disproved. Some of these are even using their perceived hidden codes as a crystal ball to predict the future
Some embrace Kingdom now/Reconstruction/Dominion theology, which does away with the restoration of natural Israel and the literal reading of unfulfilled prophetic scripture and replaces it with a strange doctrine that is not taught in the Bible. They say the Church will rule on earth before Jesus can return.
Most Pentecostals also have many of the same man-made legalistic problems listed under the Evangelicals
Commendations:
+ Enthusiastic worship
+ Strong desire to live out the Christian life
+ Strong Evangelism
+ Most expect the literal fulfillment of prophetic scriptures
+ Missionary support
+ Some Christian education
+ Some discipleship
+ All believe that original scripture is without error
+ Most keep the essential doctrines of the faith
+ Most services are Bible centered
+ Some home fellowships
+ Charity
Having said the good the bad and the ugly there are many fruitful Christians in the Evangelical and Pentecostal Churches. Here is what I believe is the Lord's message to these people:
Rev 3:7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and none shall shut, and that shutteth and none openeth:
8 I know thy works (behold, I have {1} set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name. {1) Gr given}
9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and {1} worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. {1) The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, or to the Creator.}
7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth and none shall shut, and that shutteth and none openeth:
8 I know thy works (behold, I have {1} set before thee a door opened, which none can shut), that thou hast a little power, and didst keep my word, and didst not deny my name. {1) Gr given}
9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and {1} worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. {1) The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, or to the Creator.}
10 Because thou didst keep the word of my {1} patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of {2} trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole {3} world, to {4} try them that dwell upon the earth. {1) Or stedfastness 2) Or temptation 3) Gr inhabited earth 4) Or tempt}
11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the {1} temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. {1) Or sanctuary}
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the {1} temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. {1) Or sanctuary}
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
Conclusion
The scripture says that there will be a great falling away from the true faith in the last days. It says men will not endure sound doctrine but will have itching ears and will heap to themselves teachers that will fulfill their own lusts. We are in those days. There are almost two billion people who identify with Christianity on the earth today but how many are truly the bride of Christ? Jesus asked, when He returns will He find faith on the earth? The answer for most of the world is no. For those who identify with Christianity it is yes and no. Many today have only empty religion and not real faith in the Savior.
My best guess is a tithe (ten percent) of those who identify with Christianity are actually born of the Spirit and will go at the time of the rapture. (It could be more -- only God knows.) The ninety percent of carnal Christians that might stay will hardly miss them. Those that stay will remain in the apostate harlot church (Rev 17) and experience the great tribulation where they will have a choice to follow Jesus and lose their lives or follow Satan and lose their soul.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Amen Sis!!!!!!
It is an absolutely excellent overview of the different primary segiments of those who claim Christ. Right on the money and the author pulls no punches.
It covers RCC, Orthodoxy, Evangelical, and Pentecostal, with the "nuts and bolts" of their respective perspectives. Thank you for posting.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Most Pentecostals also have many of the same man-made legalistic problems listed under the Evangelicals
Commendations:
+ Enthusiastic worship
+ Strong desire to live out the Christian life
+ Strong Evangelism
+ Most expect the literal fulfillment of prophetic scriptures
+ Missionary support
+ Some Christian education
+ Some discipleship
+ All believe that original scripture is without error
+ Most keep the essential doctrines of the faith
+ Most services are Bible centered
+ Some home fellowships
+ Charity
Amen - that is the type of Pentecostal or Evangelistic Church I would follow.
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Most Pentecostals also have many of the same man-made legalistic problems listed under the Evangelicals
Commendations:
+ Enthusiastic worship
+ Strong desire to live out the Christian life
+ Strong Evangelism
+ Most expect the literal fulfillment of prophetic scriptures
+ Missionary support
+ Some Christian education
+ Some discipleship
+ All believe that original scripture is without error
+ Most keep the essential doctrines of the faith
+ Most services are Bible centered
+ Some home fellowships
+ Charity
Amen - that is the type of Pentecostal or Evangelistic Church I would follow.
Great example of the problem
quote:
Amen - that is the type of Pentecostal or Evangelistic Church I would follow.
Most people are following a church, rather than Christ.
They are looking for the type of STUFF that make them feel good in worship.
Then they end up following false teachers and doctrines, and they defend it to the hilt because it makes them feel good, or it feels right.
That's how the deceiving spirit led people like Hinn and the rest have such a large following.
STOP FOLLOWING CHURCHES AND PEOPLE
START FOLLOWING CHRIST
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
AMEN Linda, Drew and Walt!
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
It was funny because when I posted this article I thought to myself, are those really commendations, Paul says that if we give our bodies to be burned and have not agape, we are nothing. To me all the good works in the world are still man's works if it is not come the outflowing of Christ in us. You simply cannot be producing apostacy and agape at the same time; so for some of the listed here the commendations are a matter of opinion, but this author sought to say good things as well as bad about each group and thus the title of the article the "good, the bad and the ugly"
Amen to your post Walt! "Most people are following a church, rather than Christ."
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
I'm only going to respond once because this post is in the wrong place and I only read replies and not the extremely long post. However, we were told in the bible to go to church. If Jesus didn't want us to have someone to lead us, then He wouldn't have told us to go to church. If you read back in the Old Testament, the people needed someone to lead them or they fell into pagan worship. Like when Moses was on the mount 40 days and returned to Aaron building a golden calf because the people didn't know how to go to God Himself, or they often chose not to, but they needed a leader. People today still need a leader and since no church is perfect, they choose the best church they can. You chose a church that believes as you do, and we do the same. Who says that makes you right, and me wrong? Afterall, only God knows for sure. You certainly don't have all of the right answers, and neither do I.
He also told us to fellowship with each other and church is often the only time some newer Christians, or Christians that only know the basics, fellowship with others. So it's also where we should be so that we can teach others about a deeper relationship with Christ. Jesus said GO and Teach right? It's our job to teach people to line up the word spoken in the church with the word of God, but then again since you are teaching the bible is full or erros, there isn't any true doctrine to line up the spoken word with the True word of God I guess.
No offense, but I have seen each of you say things that didn't line up with God's word also but I don't attack you because none of us are perfect, plus it doesn't do any good anyway. It only causes problems and when Christians start arguing whether in church or a forum, it's a bad witness to others.
I do agree however, that when we go to a church--and if you find the one that is absolutely perfect please let me know, but I don't think you will-- that we need to line up every word spoken with God's word. Of course since you want people to believe the bible is full of error, then I guess that doesn't leave any place for anyone to really seek the truth of what Jesus taught. After all, if there are errors, then why read the bible since we can't tell what is true, and what isn't.
Also, I do agree that many translations of the bible are corrupt and either add or subtract from the originally writing. That is why I stick with the King James bible. Some argue it isn't good either, so which bible is exactly correct that I can follow since many of us don't know Greek or Hebrew so can't read the actual translation. I have lined up the King James Version with the actual Greek and Hebrew translations and found it to be quite accurate. Often the Greek and Hebrew use words that have more than one meaning when we only have 1 meaning for the word. Many use love as an example. We say love. The Greek has several different words for love and each have a slightly different meaning like brotherly life or God's perfect love. So the bible isn't in error, it just gives a little less of a detailed meaning since we only have the word LOVE.
My question is this. You are teaching everyone that the bible has errors so why should anyone read it? I mean afterall, if I were a new Christian and I took your word for it, then I would have to read the bible and wonder if it's even telling the truth. We are to teach people to read God's word, not to doubt it. Nothing you reply to me will make me feel like I can feel comfortable reading the bible since you say it has errors and you teach new Christians this before they even understand what Christianity is about or what the bible teaches.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Within the Protestants there are about three hundred million Evangelicals and Pentecostal Protestants that have for the most part kept the true faith. The things listed below should not apply to them. I write about their own unique problems in a later paragraph.
How can we play God and even begin to fine-tooth comb which are heretical and which are not?
The Evangelical faith has many demoninations under its umbrella, with small variancs in each doctrine. I am sure there are many out there under the name of evangelism, who are false prophets, as it is in any faith. However, we have to be careful which ones we are coming against if we are not sure they are God's anointed ones.
I have found that under the Pentocostal and Baptist denominations, there are different factions that have broken away from the traditional church which give me grave concern.
quote:
Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful such as drinking, smoking, dancing, watching movies or TV or even listening to certain Christian music. Some do not even allow musical instruments in church but these same churches ignore actions of the flesh like gluttony, gossip and judging everyone as sinners who have the greater faith to believe that God does not abide by their list of man made forbidden activities
A lot of this is really exaggerated. But Smoking?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Smoking shouldn't even be showing on the radar screen.. What a disgusting, filthy addictive habit. I have seen people really bound up by slavery to that little white pollutant- filled tool of the devil. Our bodies are supposted to be temples of the Lord.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
STOP FOLLOWING CHURCHES AND PEOPLE
START FOLLOWING CHRIST
I don't think there is one person who wouldn't agree with that statement. However this thread is discussing churches. Since you are choosing to go down that path wparr what about those who follow Rev.WWW.?
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
:
R E L I G I O N!
Religion? - Click Here to listen to this now online. Only 6 minutes long.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
How can we play God and even begin to fine-tooth comb which are heretical and which are not?
We should not play God. I dont think that we have to play God. I believe that the WORD is given to us to discern the heretical.
quote:
The Evangelical faith has many demoninations under its umbrella, with small variancs in each doctrine. I am sure there are many out there under the name of evangelism, who are false prophets, as it is in any faith.
I have found that under the Pentocostal and Baptist denominations, there are different factions that have broken away from the traditional church which give me grave concern.
I agree.
It seems to me that the author of this article, attempted to give a broad overall view of both the good and the bad looking at the various groups as a whole rather than any one particular group in microcosim.
quote:
However, we have to be careful which ones we are coming against if we are not sure they are God's anointed ones.
I have yet to meet the person that took the scripture from which this thought is derived in context. If you would like to discuss it; start a thread; it would be great Bible Study.
quote:
A lot of this is really exaggerated. But Smoking?? Smoking shouldn't even be on the radar screen.. What a disgusting, filthy addictive habit. I have seen people really bound up by slavery to that little white pollutant- filled tool of the devil. Our bodies are supposted to be temples of the Lord.
I hardly think that the sin against the body of fornication is comparable to smoking and in fact Paul says that EVERY OTHER sin that a man doeth is WITHOUT the Body, but the sin of fornication is against the body - flee fornication, know you not that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
There are people who smoke and are not in bondage to smoking. There are people who smoke who for them it is not sin.
Romans 14:22.........................Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
All things are for us legal, all things however do not edify and are not prudent.
There are many things like this. Do you eat a MacDonald's? Drink Diet Sodas? Mircrowave your food? Use a cell phone? Eat shellfish or fish without scales? Use plastics? Have Carpet in your home? All of these things are damaging to your body and/or to the environment. Some smoke and get lung cancer, others die of lung cancer never having smoked.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Amen David! An excellent word from Chip Brogden as usual!!!!!!
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
I don't follow religion, I have a relationship. There is a big difference.
I'm listening to the link you gave David. So far I like it but I'm not finished listening yet.
So far, I do disagree with one part though. He says clothing people were are relgion. Although I don't think it's right to judge someone by how they dress, the bible says we are to dress in a way that doesn't cause others to sin. I don't think we should sit back and continue to let clothing get shorter and more revealing, it's already bad enough. That isn't religion, it's sin.
That is a really good word David. Thanks for posting it.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Amen to that Carmela, but modesty in dress will always reflect the condition of the heart dont you think? If we are wanting people to look at Jesus in us and not at us, we will not dress in a way that makes people to look at us with lust.
I think Brogden speaks more of people who would not let you in church in a pair of jeans or who would judge a young person by their long hair etc.
I heard a wonderful story once about a rather deseveled young man that walked into a church and to the front and sat on the floor in his ragedy dirty clothes and all the people were agasp. One of the ushers was moving to the front to get him up from the floor and bring him to a pew in the back when an elder in the church stood up... he was quite an elderly man and walked with a cane. He walked to the front and sat himself on the floor with this young man.
Needless to say the usher wuickly slipped into a seat himself!
I thought, yes! That is exactly what Jesus would do. Come just as you are, but come. That is what Jesus would say.
I grew up in the south and I tell you there are some churches where you would be removed from the building for cming to church without a tie.
I think this is the kind os thig brogden is speaking of.
Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
I'm only going to respond once because this post is in the wrong place and I only read replies and not the extremely long post.
If you didn't read the post, how can you comment on it intelligently?
quote:
Carmella: People today still need a leader and since no church is perfect, they choose the best church they can. You chose a church that believes as you do, and we do the same.
Our leader is Jesus Christ, not any man behind any pulpit. Contrary to popular belief within the "Christian" world these days, God's Word is indeed sufficient.
quote:
Carmella: ......but then again since you are teaching the bible is full or erros, there isn't any true doctrine to line up the spoken word with the True word of God I guess.
Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?
quote:
Carmella: No offense, but I have seen each of you say things that didn't line up with God's word also but I don't attack you because none of us are perfect, plus it doesn't do any good anyway. It only causes problems and when Christians start arguing whether in church or a forum, it's a bad witness to others.
Who is the "each of you" that you refer to? What specifically was said that didn't line up with God's Word? You offer blanket accusations to no one in specific, and then imply concern about causing problems and being a bad witness?
quote:
Carmella: I do agree however, that when we go to a church--and if you find the one that is absolutely perfect please let me know, but I don't think you will-- that we need to line up every word spoken with God's word. Of course since you want people to believe the bible is full of error, then I guess that doesn't leave any place for anyone to really seek the truth of what Jesus taught. After all, if there are errors, then why read the bible since we can't tell what is true, and what isn't.[/quote}
Again, who is the "you" that you refer to, and who is saying that the bible is full of error?
[quote]Carmella: My question is this. You are teaching everyone that the bible has errors so why should anyone read it? I mean afterall, if I were a new Christian and I took your word for it, then I would have to read the bible and wonder if it's even telling the truth. We are to teach people to read God's word, not to doubt it. Nothing you reply to me will make me feel like I can feel comfortable reading the bible since you say it has errors and you teach new Christians this before they even understand what Christianity is about or what the bible teaches.
Seriously. Who is is that you are accusing and on what basis? These are pretty serious accusations. Please clarify.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
I don't think we should sit back and continue to let clothing get shorter and more revealing, it's already bad enough. That isn't religion, it's sin.
Yes, and waistlines are gradually getting lower.
I heard John Hagee once make this remark " What once took a whole day to do a spinning wheel, Silkworm can now do on his lunchbreak." ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
With all due respect Linda, don't you think this thread should be in the Exposing False Teaching forum?
There is a heading in that thread which reads.
Christian BBS Exposing False Teaching
To expose and debate false teachings of today! Please use this forum for this and not the Bible Study forum.
I would appreciate your kind consideration.
What are we to think of your above request for "kind consideration"?
You either shouldn't have posted the above, or you shouldn't have continued participating in this thread.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
I would be interested in answers to hardcore's questions too Carmela. I missed your post before.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
hardly think that the sin against the body of fornication is comparable to smoking and in fact Paul says that EVERY OTHER sin that a man doeth is WITHOUT the Body, but the sin of fornication is against the body - flee fornication, know you not that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
I totally agree, but lets put the smoking comment back into the proper context in which it was written. Smoking was put on a list of areas in which Evanglists consider it to be a sin and the author disagreed. I believe the words were "Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful"
Linda you said "There are people who smoke and are not in bondage to smoking. There are people who smoke who for them it is not sin."
Oh my. To me it's a no brainer - it's a sin.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
With all due respect Linda, don't you think this thread should be in the Exposing False Teaching forum?
There is a heading in that thread which reads.
Christian BBS Exposing False Teaching
To expose and debate false teachings of today! Please use this forum for this and not the Bible Study forum.
I would appreciate your kind consideration.
What are we to think of your above request for "kind consideration"?
You either shouldn't have posted the above, or you shouldn't have continued participating in this thread.
That's a very good point hardcore, but here I am ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
Oh my. To me it's a no brainer - it's a sin.
Praise God he does not choose us for our brains huh? There are lots of things that I see that are no brainers to me and you disagree.
Wont be the first time today that I have been accused of being brainless Hisgrace, and probably not the last time that you and I will disagree on what is or is not sin. There are somethings that are not specifically listed in the scripture as sin that can be sin to one man and not sin to another.
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
Hardcore a person doesn't have to read a post to respond intelligently. I was stating that I was replying to other replies made, not the post itself. That shows everyone reading that 1) my replies were not about the post and 2) if I didn't respond to something in the post, it's because I didn't read it. As far as you (Hardcore) are concerned, if it's considered unintelligent to reply to others and not to the post, so be it. I was being honest from the start as to not falsely lead someone.
Hardcore: quote:
Our leader is Jesus Christ, not any man behind any pulpit. Contrary to popular belief within the "Christian" world these days, God's Word is indeed sufficient.
Does this mean that you don't go to church or listen to others teach the word of God? I agree with what you said, but most Christians belong to a church so if you want to nit pick, I don't mind. However, we don't have Jesus here with us right now so we take the word of the preacher, and then we should be checking to see if it lines up with God's word. So, we are usually under the authority of "man" but that man should be under God's authority and teaching the bible correctly. I didn't say we take out Jesus or that we put man's word above God's.
Hardcore: quote:
Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?
How difficult is this to understand? If it applies to someone, then they will know because it's what they believe. "YOU" is all of those in this forum that are teaching this doctrine. If you agree with what I type, then it doesn't apply because you are not in disagreement with me. If I were to name one or 2 people, it would only apply to them. I was addressing all that believe the bible has errors.
quote:
+ All believe that original scripture is without error
This was in the post and it's what I was addressing. I see so often that you Hardcore and HFHS and others have put down other denominations as if to say what you (Hardcore) believe is correct and everyone is wrong. I once posted an excerpt from the Purpose Driven Life book and got all kinds of ridicule yet nothing I had quoted was wrong. Since then, I have finished reading the book and again I didn't find all of this false stuff that was posted in several forums here. Yet because people in this forum disagree (and most probably haven't even read the book for themselves but instead made a decision based on what others said) people in this forum attacked the post so the entire message and purpose of that post was totally missed. The message got tarnished with all of the posts that were attacking Rick Warren and had nothing to do with the quote I typed out.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carmella: ......but then again since you are teaching the bible is full or errors, there isn't any true doctrine to line up the spoken word with the True word of God I guess.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?
Obviously, whomever believe this way, are the very people I'm addressing. I didn't post that list of things that are supposedly wrong with Evangelical/Pentecostal churches.
Many of the people in this forum are out to change us (that don't believe as some of you do) it seems. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't and there isn't anything wrong with that. I think that is why every once in a while someone tries to sneak in a post into this forum even though posts like this have a forum of their own. By us, I mean anyone that doesn't believe it's our job to bash other religions and prove them to be wrong. Just because some people feel it's their calling to expose false religions, doesn't mean that we need to read the posts and have it exposed in this section. For you defense, I do realize that what you are doing is being done because you want us to know what you believe to be correct and that what other's teach don't line up with what you believe. However, some of us don't feel that some of the teachers that are posted about are wrong. Since no one is 100% correct in what they teach, then it isn't wrong for us to listen to Joyce Meyers or Benny Hinn and then weed out the good from the bad for ourselves. I have listened to Joyce many time and I think she is actually being misquoted and misinterpreted quite often. However, I don't try to convince anyone that she has some good words to share with people. Many are healed and set free from things because of Joyce so her ministry isn't all bad as some would have people think.
I only use her as an example, I know she wasn't mentioned here.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
Many of the people in this forum are out to change us (that don't believe as some of you do) it seems. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't and there isn't anything wrong with that. I think that is why every once in a while someone tries to sneak in a post into this forum even though posts like this have a forum of their own.
![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
Out to change you? ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
Only the Holy spirit can change any of us. I assure you that life is much to short.
I just wanted you to know that I did not try to "sneak" anything in here. I did not expect this post to cause this commotion. This author presented a view of the good and the bad and attempted to give an overall assessment. It is a comparison of common teachings or doctrines. I felt it was informational.
I frankly dont worry much about where something is posted I figure David has the move button if he does not approve of a location. I personally find any opportunity to look at the Bible verses the World an opportunity for Bible study.
One of the churches that I attend the pastor preaches his surmon and then says you will see this and that taught in regard to this subject and it is false because. I appreciate that because we every day meet people who dont open their Bibles much less meditate on the word that ask questions and I want to know how to answer.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
HisGrace, personally I don't care "where" any Topic is located; I can answer anywhere. But I know how you feel about it too. ![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
Here are some good parts, helpforhomeschoolers: quote:
We cannot judge if a person who identifies with Christianity is really trusting in Christ or in their religion to save them. If they are trusting in their religion to save them they are no more part of the body of Christ than a Jew or Moslem or any other religion.
Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus. This relationship does not depend on having all the correct theology but correct theology will result in more fruitful Christianity.
quote:
If there ever was a religion that could allow man to fellowship with God it was Judaism but the requirement was to keep all of God's law. The laws of Judaism did not achieve salvation because in man's fallen state he could never keep the whole law.
But what about the faith of Abraham which was before the law which could and did save Old Testament saints?
And also the unconditional promises of the LORD God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and to Joseph-Ephraim and Judah, all those unconditional promises were outside the law, having nothing to do with whether Ephraim and Judah were good or bad.
The unconditional promises were made unilaterally by the LORD, and they depend only on the LORD for their guaranteed fulfillment.
Those promises are: "you shall become a multitude of people" (promise owned by Ephraim), "nations shall come out of you" (promise owned by Ephraim), "you shall possess the gates of your enemies" (promise owned by Ephraim), and "kings shall come out of you, including the Messiah" {promise owned by Judah).
These unconditional promises are outside the law and are unilaterally guaranteed by the oath of the LORD only. And in addition to that, there was the faith Abraham had of "seeing the promised Messiah up ahead in 30 A.D", while we look backwards in faith to 30 A.D.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
BORN AGAIN
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
HFHS I know what you mean. I have made posts and they took a twist I certainly didn't expect them to take also. It's funny how we all see things so differently. Sometimes that is good because it causes all of us to consider what has been said and to spend time searching the word to find the truth for ourselves.
I find it offensive to run down other churches, even those I disagree with. I guess part of the reason is because by discrediting people's beliefs, it just causes them to retaliate against other Christians and I don't believe in that. Now, a Jehovah's Witness came to my door this weekend and I invited her in and took her books to read and I will read them and tell her what the bible says opposed to what the Watchtower says when she return. However, if I just start telling her she is following the wrong church, she will stop coming and then I'm not in the place to witness to her. So, I address people individually and then slowly expose the false teaching they are following, that way I have a chance of leading one more person to Jesus instead of just pushing one more person away. I feel that is arrogance when it's done in that way. I know we all witness the way we feel best, but Jesus often met people one on one. He told Zaccheus He was going to his house, he didn't publically run him down. That is how Zaccheus(however it's spelled) was saved.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
BA! I love it when you are on a roll and dont even know it!!!!!
quote:
These unconditional promises are outside the law and are unilaterally guaranteed by the oath of the LORD only.
Yes, this is true!! And as you have so well in previous posts pointed out these are different promises than the promised that were made under the law. Is that correct?
and what of the church/Bride? are not also our promises promises that are outside the Law and unilaterally guaranteed by the oath of the Lord God only and that oath sealed by HIS Spirit?
This is an important thing. The promises made to the church are made to no other people at no other time past or future. Do you agree?
Carmela:
Yes, I agree that if it sends us to the scriptures to look for ourselves it is a good thing!!!
I have trouble with your second paragraph I am sure you already know. I respect what you say about one on one witnessing; In fact I believe that is how we are supposed to grow the local church.
But this is a discussion board and it is for the PURPOSE of discussing different points of view.
I also disagree that it is "running down" other faiths to speak the biblical truth. I believe that it is hate to remain silent while the enemy perverts the word of God and that perversion is passed around as truth....
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
Dear sister helpforhomeschoolers, you write quote:
these are different promises than the promised that were made under the law. Is that correct?
That is correct. The LORD twice made unconditional promises to Abram/Abraham, and to both unconditional promises the LORD swore by Himself to perform them unilaterally.
“many nations will come out of you”
Genesis 17:5
Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made you.
“a multiplicity of people will come from you”
Genesis 32:12
And You said, I will surely do you good, and I will make your seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.
“possess the gate of their enemies”
Genesis 22:17
That in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and your seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
“king shall come out of you”
Genesis 17:6
And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come out of you.
Genesis 17:16
And I will bless her, and give you a son also of her: yes, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
“And their seed would inherit and live in the land of Canaan”
Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, To your seed will I give this land: and there he buildt an altar to the LORD, who appeared to him.
Genesis 22:16
And said, By myself have I sworn, says the LORD, for because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son.
These promises were made while Abraham-Isaac-Jacob were still sojourning in the land of Canaan, before going down to Misr Egypt to sojourn there in the land of Goshen.
The law, as you know, was set forth after their bondage in Misr Egypt in the land of Goshen, after the Exodus, whereas these are all Genesis promises outside the law entirely, neither do they depend on whether the holders of the promises--the house of Ephraim-Israel and the house of Judah—are being good or bad.
These unconditional promises are outside the law.
Dear sister Carmela, I liked this part quote:
Now, a Jehovah's Witness came to my door this weekend and I invited her in and took her books to read and I will read them and tell her what the bible says opposed to what the Watchtower says when she return. However, if I just start telling her she is following the wrong church, she will stop coming and then I'm not in the place to witness to her.
I met a Jehovah witness woman at the hot springs last year and she gave me Isaiah in Spanish on which I could practice my Spanish while reading the Word, and we had good conversations together in the swimming pool.
I believe in being nice and friendly to Jehovah Witnesses just as I would to other persons, because the Bible says “Finally, do unto others as you would have others do unto you”, and that includes Jehovah Witnesses.
And indeed, if I have something to say or prove, then “let’s see it”, so that they may answer us. When it comes to preaching, any unsaved person can be preached to.
Mind you, I think that Jehovah Witnesses are already Christians. I do not think the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) are Christians. But I do believe the Jehovah Witnesses are already Christians; their doctrine could use some help, but not enough to disqualify them from salvation through the expiatory or exchanged suffering of Christ on the cross. Jehovah Witnessed believe in that, I think, and they don’t deny that the word “Lord” is “Kurie”.
To me they are already Christians. Of the Catholics, those are Christians who have made a personal decision to accept the exchanged life of Christ and they are Christians. But among Catholics, the majority are not Christians in the sense that they have made that personal decision for Christ, and hence they are still in their sins.
God bless, preach to ‘em, baby. BORN AGAIN
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
HFHS, In ways I agree with what you said. I mean here in the forum, we are Christians. However, if--I will use the Witnesses as an example since my best friend is a Witness--if someone comes to this board, we can't tell what denomination they follow. So, if they come and see bashing, then it just pushes them away or causes them to retaliate so they may end up leaving. I've seen on this forum, members saying in posts regarding newer members...don't worry, you/they won't last long here. Then I start to wonder, how can we reach this person and show them the error of their ways if we are just bashing them or trying to get them to leave? See, sometimes people have said something to me and I will dispute it, but I never forget it. It happens more in my personal life than on boards, but I continue to reflect on what we discussed and sometimes I realize in the end that I was wrong and my thinking changes. I feel that as board members here, we should be doing the same for others. Helping them see where they may be wrong instead of arguing with them or pushing them away. I know that isn't always easy to do though because some people appear to never change, but I bet in time they will. As we teach others here, we can be praying that the Holy Spirit will help them see what is the truth.
I just feel public bashing causes more harm than good. At the same time, I do agree if someone is preaching falsely, they should be exposed but there is a right time and place for that occur.
I agree with BA. Just because the Witnesses believe some things differently then we do, doesn't make them unsaved people. In fact, sometimes I think we can learn things from them. For instance, you look at most Witnesse
congregations. They may not preach exactly as we believe, but they live very strict, disciplined lives for the most part, they are out weekly knocking on doors and trying to draw people to the Lord. We don't do that. I'm not saying we should all go door to door, but then again it isn't such a bad thing either. When you look at the Witness Congregation, you see most of them working toward Godly living, while if you do to most other Christian church, most of the people are a mess. I mentioned my best friend. She doesn't live a life that is as disciplined as the Witnesses believe they should live so there are some that still struggle but I don't believe there are as many Witnesses that go to church only because they grew up going or because it's a habit or a holiday. They fellowship in the middle of the week, the weekend, go door to door and probably more. The bible says we should fellowship with believers and hold each other accountable, they do that.
My point is that no church is perfect but the way to reach others is to set a Godly example, not bash them.
We can certainly agree to disagree here though.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
God's unconditional love is the same for everyone, not just our own little "Ye must be born again" clique.
As I Cor.12:12-14 says- For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
For the body is not one member, but many.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
"God's unconditional love is the same for everyone, not just our own little "Ye must be born again" clique."
-------------------------------------------------
Are you making a clique of Jesus's own words?
Jhn 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Do you deny that you must be born again to be saved?
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
betty
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Do you deny that you must be born again to be saved?
Certainly not - that's not what I said. Anyway it's getting really late - night. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
HisGrace,
Goodnight and sweet dreams.
betty
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
Amen to that affirmation or conformation, sister Carmela, about the Jehovah Witnesses. They are certainly much more organized than we are. But then, most cults are also very well organized.
Could they be considered a cult because cults prohibit study of anything "outside of what everybody else in the cult is studying", namely only Jehovah Witness books and their own rendition of the Bible (which I have read, BTW, and does not differ much from our KJV Bible except in the Jesus was God and Jesus was a God John 1:1-2.
If the Jehovah Witnesses believe in the expiatory or exchange life of the suffering of Jesus Christ on behalf of their sins, then Jehovah Witnesses are saved--at least the ones that believe that to the end of their lives are saved, I think, because then they are just like me, using the identical ground for salvation that I use.
The LORD God of Israel bless all of us, BORN AGAIN
Posted by Chaplain Bob (Member # 5019) on
:
quote:
However, we were told in the bible to go to church.
__________________________________________________
There is no verse of Scripture where Jesus instructs us to "...go to church...". There is a Scripture (Heb 10:25) that tells us not to get out of the habit of meeting together with other Believers but that does not have to be done in a "church" building. We can meet with other Believers anywhere and can appoint leaders of any group of Believers wherever they choose to meet.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Born Again writes:
Amen to that affirmation or conformation, sister Carmela, about the Jehovah Witnesses. They are certainly much more organized than we are. But then, most cults are also very well organized.
Could they be considered a cult because cults prohibit study of anything "outside of what everybody else in the cult is studying", namely only Jehovah Witness books and their own rendition of the Bible (which I have read, BTW, and does not differ much from our KJV Bible except in the Jesus was God and Jesus was a God John 1:1-2.
If the Jehovah Witnesses believe in the expiatory or exchange life of the suffering of Jesus Christ on behalf of their sins, then Jehovah Witnesses are saved--at least the ones that believe that to the end of their lives are saved, I think, because then they are just like me, using the identical ground for salvation that I use.
The LORD God of Israel bless all of us, BORN AGAIN [Cross]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://www.carm.org/jw/doctrines.htm
What do the Jehovah's Witnesses Teach?
1. There is one God in one person, Make Sure of All Things, p 188.
2. There is no Trinity, Let God be True, p. 100-101; Make Sure of All Things, p.386.
3. The Holy Spirit is a force, not alive, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
406-407.
4. The Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, The Watchtower, June 1, 1952,
p. 24.
5. Jehovah's first creation was his 'only-begotten Son'. . . was used by Jehovah in
creating all other things", Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 390-391.
6. Jesus was Michael the archangel who became a man, The Watchtower, May 15,
1963, p. 307; The New World, 284.
7. Jesus was only a perfect man, not God in flesh, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
1985, pp. 306.
8. Jesus did not rise from the dead in his physical body, Awake! July 22, 1973, p. 4.
9. Jesus was raised "not a human creature, but a spirit." Let God be True, p. 276.
10. Jesus was born again, The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1954, p. 682.
11. Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985,
pp. 89-90.
12. Jesus began his invisible rule over the earth in 1914, The Truth Shall Make You Free,
p. 300.
13. Jesus' ransom sacrifice did not include Adam, Let God be True, p. 119.
14. Their church is the self-proclaimed prophet of God, The Watchtower, April 1,
1972, p. 197.
15. They claim to be the only channel of God's truth, The Watchtower, Feb. 15,
1981, p. 19.
16. Only their church members will be saved, The Watchtower, Feb, 15, 1979, p. 30.
17. Good works are necessary for salvation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1,
pp. 150, 152.
18. The soul ceases to exist after death, Let God be True, p. 59, 60, 67.
19. There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished, Let God be True, p. 79, 80.
20. Only 144,000 Jehovah's Witness go to heaven, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
1985, pp. 166-167, 361; Let God be True, p. 121.
21. Only the 144,000 Jehovah's Witness are born again. Reasoning from the
Scriptures, 1985, p. 76.; Watchtower 11/15/54, p. 681.
22. Only the 144,000 may take communion,
23. Blood transfusions are a sin, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 72-73.
24. The Cross is a pagan symbol and should not be used, Reasoning from the
Scriptures, 1985, pp. 90-92.
25. Salvation is by faith and what you do, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1, pp.
150,152.
26. It is possible to lose your salvation, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
358-359.
27. The universe is billions of years old, Your will Be Done on Earth, p. 43.
28. Each of the 6 creative days of God in Genesis 1, was 7000 years long.
Therefore, Man was created toward the end of 42,000 years of earth's
preparation, Let God be True, p. 168.
29. They also refuse to vote, salute the flag, sing the "Star Spangled Banner," or
celebrate Christmas or birthdays. They are not allowed to serve in the armed
forces.
30. Satan was entrusted with the obligation and charged with the duty of
overseeing the creation of the earth, Children, p 55
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
It is FAR MORE than John 1:1, that they have changed in the New World Translation of scripture, the JW Bible. I also have a copy BA. Any proof scriptures pertaining to the Diety of Christ have been mis-translated in their version to substantiate their position.
Like the Mormons, BA and Carmela, the JWs DO NOT follow the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible, but a different "jesus" of their own making.
Our Jesus is YHWH manifest in the flesh.
Their jesus is the archangel Michael, a created being.
Our Jesus rose from the dead bodily.
Their jesus was recreated.
Jehovah's Witnesses are very nice people, and very sincere in their belief's, but SINCERELY WRONG haveing been led into deception by the Watchtower heresy.
They were our neighbors when I was growing up. We studied with them. I thank God almighty for a praying Grandmother and a Mother who decided to believe the Bible and not the teachings of this false cult.
I have studied with both Jehovah's Witnesses and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,(Mormons), and they are BOTH cults and their theology ANATHEMA to a blood-bought born again child of the Living God.
2 John 1:
9: Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10: If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
I definitely consider them a cult. Many people have told my friend Patience (yes that is her name lol) that she shouldn't be friends with me because I'm not a witness. They mainly believe in only fellowshipping with people of their own belief and as you said they are told to only read the Watchtower and other writings from their organization. Even the way they were founded is all wrong but they are still a people searching to know God, just as we are.
HisGrace, I agree that God's unconditional love is for everyone. I was talking about how we address each other. I will be more bold with a Christian but with non-Christians I am softer because they need to know that I love them unconditionally and that they are not going to be rejected because they disagree with me, which could later change as God gives them more revelation of Himself. Whether people agree with me or not, doesn't affect how I feel about them as individuals.
I will use HFHS as an example here. She and I disagree sometimes but I respect her a lot and I see that she has a lot of wisdom. I know that I can say it as it is with her because nothing I say is going to cause her to stray from Christianity.
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
Chaplain Bob, I just saw your post. Sorry for the delay.
My definition of church is any place where 2 or more are gathered. We are the church and in most cases, there is someone that is in authority of groups whether they are small or a large congregation.
Caretaker, I'm not saying anyone should join the witnesses. However, they are seeking God in spite of their confusion. Jesus said it's the heart of a man that is looked at. I don't believe He is going to come and choose all the people in one denomination, but several people from most of the denominations because they are people seeking Him. We are judged by what we know. They only know the false teachings they have been taught and they don't realize they are being led by the blind. However, they are a people searching to know God. They may have the rest messed up, but they are serving God.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
It is NOT the searching but the receiving of Christ which is the redemption and justification, Carmela.
Romans 10:
8: But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11: For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15: And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
The JW does not confess the Lord Jesus Christ as revealed in the Word, they follow a different jesus.
The JW does not believe in their heart that God hath raised Him from the dead.
The JW is lost and they have been led astray through heresy.
The Muslim, the Buddist, the Wiccan, the Animist, the Morman, the JW, etc, etc, etc, are all seeking "god". Are thay all redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb?
John 3:
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Carmela
I disagree. It is not enough to seek God, you must give your heart and life to Jesus. There are many seeking God today, but why to they not find him? It is because they do not want Jesus. They want a God they create. A God that approves of their livestyle. I have read about actors who talk about taking a little of each relegion and forming their own relegion. That is not the way to Jesus. If we could form our own relegion, would Jesus have had to leave Heaven to die for us. The biggest problem is when we form our relegion and our own god, this god we form is not Jesus and no better than praying to a wooden god. I am afraid that any who do not accept Jesus as their Savior will miss the rapture. Jesus said He was the Way. We cannot attempt to form our own way and still make the rapture. It is not a question of how nice we are. It is whether we are covered in the blood of Jesus.
betty
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Amen Betty!!!!!!!
Very well said.
2 Cor. 11:
3: But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4: For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on
:
Linda could you or anyone else answer these questions for me.
How can a person who denies that Christ was and is God in the flesh be a Christian. You can't.
How can someone be a Christian when we are told to pickup our cross and follow Christ, but yet a person doesn't believe in the cross. You can't
How can a person be a Christian when the Prophets of the of the person have been wrong on every prophisy they have made. They can't.
How can a person be a Christian when they believe Christs sacrifice wasn't enough? But you still need your works. You can't.
How can a person be a Christian yet deny the exsitance of the Holy Spirit.You can't.
Born Again as far as the only thing being different is the verse in John 1:1 sorry your wrong reread it again. Or if you would like I can give you a list of 25 verses that have been changed or omitted from the JW Bible. Oh wait those same verses are missing from the NIV also. Thats right I said missing. So go on believing that JW's are saved all it does is put any who the Lord puts in your path believe they are ok and going to Heaven.
Me on the other hand I wil conseder them lost and do my best to show them the Gospel.
God bless
greg
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
You can't Greg. I am not sure why BA believes that the JW are Christians. I have never asked him.
This is from CARM on the subject: I would say that it echo's pretty well my position on the JW group.
Is the Jehovah's Witness religion Christian?
The answer to the question is, "No. It is not Christian." Like all non-Christian cults, the Jehovah's Witness organization distorts the essential doctrines of Christianity. It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. To support its erring doctrines, the Watchtower organization (which is the author and teacher of all official Jehovah's Witness theology), has even altered the Bible to make it agree with its changing and non-Christian teachings.
Typical with cults that use the Bible to support its position is a host of interpretive errors:
Taking verses out of their immediate context.
Refusing to read verses in the entire biblical context.
Inserting their theological presuppositions into the text.
Altering the Biblical text to suit their needs.
Latching onto one verse to interpret a host of others.
Changing the meanings of words.
Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they contradict their doctrines.
Adding to the Word of God.
Additionally, the Jehovah's Witness organization requires of its members regular weekly attendance at their "Bible Study" meetings where they are repeatedly indoctrinated with anti-Christian teachings. This is done by reading the Watchtower magazine, following along with what it says, reading the questions it asks, and reciting the answers it gives. In other words, the Watchtower Organization carefully trains its members to let the Organization do their thinking for them. For confirmation of this, please read Does the Watchtower organization control the JW's thinking?
The Witnesses are told they will be persecuted when they go door to door teaching their doctrines. They are further told that this is simply the enemy fighting against God's organization because they are in "the truth." So, when someone disagrees with them, they are conditioned to reflect on what the Watchtower has told them. They then feel confirmed in being in God's true organization on earth (like all cults claim). They are strongly encouraged to have friends and acquaintances that are only JW’s, thereby keeping outside examination to a minimum. They are told to shun those who leave their group, that way, there is no way to see why someone has left and no way to find out that they are in error from those who have found the truth in Christ. They are conditioned to shy away from any real biblically knowledgeable person. An example of this is frequently found on the Internet. I was once banned from a Jehovah's Witness chat room after I not only answered their objections to the Trinity and deity of Christ, but challenged them in return. Subsequently, my name was passed around to all other Jehovah's Witness rooms where I was banned from them as well. This is a frequent occurrence on the Internet where the Jehovah's Witnesses are alive and well. It is obvious that critical examination of their doctrines is not encouraged by the Watchtower Organization.
The Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be Christians because they believe they are serving the true and living God. Like many cults, they think they are the only true church on earth. Yet, they deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' physical resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies. Instead, they are indoctrinated repeatedly against basic Christian doctrines (Trinity, deity of Christ, etc) and into the notion that they alone are the true servants of God and that all others are either in "Christendom" or simply unbelievers.
Primarily, the Jehovah's Witness organization is a mind control organization that uses its people to pass out literature and send in "donations" to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.
"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible." The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967. p. 587.
The Watchtower organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a non-Christian organization that uses its people to promulgate false doctrines, sell a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families.
It is a non-Christian cult.
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
Betty and Drew I definitely agree that we have to accept Salvation, however the bible also says this:
Matt 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
(KJV)
God is a big God and He can open the eyes of the blind. We need to pray for others and be a witness to them. However, I know some people that use to follow other religions, and now they have found Jesus. I believe that while they were seriously searching for the truth, God opened their eyes. If they were learning the truth and still going to another church, don't you think Jesus would have met with them if they died? The bible says we are judged according to what we know.
Greg I certainly won't go as far as to say that "ALL" Witnesses will be saved because Jesus will judge each person accordingly. Each church and denomination has people that are not true Christians and others that continue to search for the truth. I also would definitely not stop witnessing to them because they need to know the truth. However, they have been led by false teachings and they only know what they have been taught. We need to be the light to a dark and lost world. I believe Jesus will look at the heart, and if someone is close to salvation because they are seeking and finding, and then they die, I believe God will take that into account. He is a just God afterall.
Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on
:
quote:
Carmella: Hardcore a person doesn't have to read a post to respond intelligently. I was stating that I was replying to other replies made, not the post itself. That shows everyone reading that 1) my replies were not about the post and 2) if I didn't respond to something in the post, it's because I didn't read it. As far as you (Hardcore) are concerned, if it's considered unintelligent to reply to others and not to the post, so be it. I was being honest from the start as to not falsely lead someone.
Okay.
quote:
Carmella: However, we don't have Jesus here with us right now so we take the word of the preacher, and then we should be checking to see if it lines up with God's word. So, we are usually under the authority of "man" but that man should be under God's authority and teaching the bible correctly.
Isn't it odd then, that so many on this board have serious problems holding man's teaching under the biblical microscope. If what you say is true, I wonder why those who do hold a man's (or woman's) preaching accountable to the Word of God, get vilified for doing so.
quote:
Hardcore: Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?
quote:
Carmella: How difficult is this to understand? If it applies to someone, then they will know because it's what they believe. "YOU" is all of those in this forum that are teaching this doctrine. If you agree with what I type, then it doesn't apply because you are not in disagreement with me. If I were to name one or 2 people, it would only apply to them. I was addressing all that believe the bible has errors.
It was difficult enough that I wanted to clarify. It seemed that you were on a rant, so to speak, and I really couldn't figure out to whom and why.
quote:
+ All believe that original scripture is without error
quote:
Carmella: This was in the post and it's what I was addressing. I see so often that you Hardcore and HFHS and others have put down other denominations as if to say what you (Hardcore) believe is correct and everyone is wrong. I once posted an excerpt from the Purpose Driven Life book and got all kinds of ridicule yet nothing I had quoted was wrong. Since then, I have finished reading the book and again I didn't find all of this false stuff that was posted in several forums here. Yet because people in this forum disagree (and most probably haven't even read the book for themselves but instead made a decision based on what others said) people in this forum attacked the post so the entire message and purpose of that post was totally missed. The message got tarnished with all of the posts that were attacking Rick Warren and had nothing to do with the quote I typed out.
How often is "so often" exactly? It implies " a lot", and I just don't see that here. I can't speak for others, but I don't believe that you've ever seen me put down another denomination, except possibly the RCC in a thread directly related to that subject.
If you didn't find an abundance of false teaching in the Purpose Driven Life then you must have been reading with only one eye open at 3am after two Excedrin PMs. Either that, or you've got a serious problem with your discernment antenna. So much for holding man's word under God's authority and teaching the bible correctly.
quote:
Carmella: ......but then again since you are teaching the bible is full or errors, there isn't any true doctrine to line up the spoken word with the True word of God I guess.
quote:
Hardcore: Who is the "you" that you refer to? Who is teaching that the bible is full of errors?
quote:
Carmella: Obviously, whomever believe this way, are the very people I'm addressing. I didn't post that list of things that are supposedly wrong with Evangelical/Pentecostal churches.
It wasn't that obvious. I'm not the only one who had no idea who you were addressing.
quote:
Carmella: Many of the people in this forum are out to change us (that don't believe as some of you do) it seems. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't and there isn't anything wrong with that. I think that is why every once in a while someone tries to sneak in a post into this forum even though posts like this have a forum of their own.
Nobody in here is out to change you (plural). Only God can do that, but I will admit that it would be nice if some of you (plural) would take off your "why can't we all get along" rose colored glasses.
I don't think HFHS tried to sneak anything into this (your?) forum. The article she posted was informational and had a lot of room for comment and discussion. It did not focus on false teachers, and quite frankly, is an important subject that a lot of Christians should read. Besides, you said you didn't read it, so how did you so quickly determine that it didn't belong here? You are the only one that mentioned names - Warren, Meyer, Hinn - the article did not. Maybe your post is the one that belongs in the other forum?
quote:
Carmella: By us, I mean anyone that doesn't believe it's our job to bash other religions and prove them to be wrong. Just because some people feel it's their calling to expose false religions, doesn't mean that we need to read the posts and have it exposed in this section. For you defense, I do realize that what you are doing is being done because you want us to know what you believe to be correct and that what other's teach don't line up with what you believe. However, some of us don't feel that some of the teachers that are posted about are wrong. Since no one is 100% correct in what they teach, then it isn't wrong for us to listen to Joyce Meyers or Benny Hinn and then weed out the good from the bad for ourselves. I have listened to Joyce many time and I think she is actually being misquoted and misinterpreted quite often. However, I don't try to convince anyone that she has some good words to share with people. Many are healed and set free from things because of Joyce so her ministry isn't all bad as some would have people think.
There is a big difference between standing for the Truth and "bashing other religions". It's not a matter of what we believe Carmella. It's about the Truth. You seem to be under the impression that God's Word is some wishy washy piece of literature up for many interpretations. I don't happen to agree. I think it's a lot more straight forward than that. Unfortunately, agreeing on one Truth is impossible for those who like to bend it depending on which way their wind is blowing at the time - or should I say whichever way their favorite TV preacher's wind is blowing.
It doesn't surprise me at all to find that you think Joyce is misquoted and misinterpreted. I have seen Joyce in person several times; in fact, just a couple of months ago. Don't bother defending the health/wealth/prosperity gospel. It won't work. If anyone is "healed" and "set free" as you say, it is because of the other "J", not her. If God chooses to use Joyce in spite of herself, then Praise God. That simply proves His infinite grace and mercy on us and her, it does not prove her right.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
Hardcore to Carmela: quote:
You are the only one that mentioned names - Warren, Meyer, Hinn - the article did not. Maybe your post is the one that belongs in the other forum?
Too funny, good retort to what was said earlier, I think by HisGrace suggesting HFHS should have put her Topic "Deviating from Biblical Christianity" on the "other forum". Touché, hardcore.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
There is no copyright given for this article from HFHS. I thought that was necessary when posting.We all know what it implies. Maybe if she would provide a link we may find some goodies in there in the unedited version, which would back up what Carmela is trying to show us.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Which article HG, the original one? It was posted on another board. I will get it for you. The other one is from CARM. www. carm.org. Do you mean the opening one though?
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Here is the link to the original article. I know nothing about the site. I saw this article on another board.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/Apostasy%20in%20the%20Church.HTM
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
We all know what it implies. Maybe if she would provide a link we may find some goodies in there in the unedited version, which would back up what Carmela is trying to show us.
What does this mean? Are you implying that I edited the article before posting it for some kind of devious reason? I am not sure that I understand the point of that? I thought the article was a good one. It was very long but I believe I posted it in its entirety. I dont usually post a lot of other people's stuff. I certainly dont try and edit other people's stuff and use for my own,. I stated that I got it from another board. I really dont understand the implication that you are making HG.
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
Hardcore I could sit here and argue forever, but it wouldn't do a bit of good.
I don't follow a wishy washy anything. In fact, I only get NBC on my tv which I rarely watch so I don't even watch preachers on tv. I spend most of my time either in class,doing homework, studying the bible, or doing mom duties so I don't have much time left for listening to other's preach God's word when I'm totally capable of reading it for myself.
If I came across as if I was on some rampage, then I didn't mean to. It wasn't my intent or my attitude when I typed the post.
I'm not going to lower myself or try to defend myself because Jesus is my defender and He is all I need. It doesn't matter to me what man thinks, only what He thinks of me.
I don't need to be put on the fire in a forum, because I only want God's fire.
If anyone wants to move my post because I named a couple of names, so be it. It wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit although I think you are the only one on the attack here right now. I feel like a mouse in front of a cat only this mouse knows where to turn when the heat is turned up so she doesn't get burned.
I didn't have to read the entire posts to see the sections about denominations and the comments about them. It's funny to me how so many people can pass judgment on other denominations but seem to fail to look in their mirror which is actually the first place Jesus wants us to start seeking.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
I don't think HFHS tried to sneak anything into this (your?) forum. The article she posted was informational and had a lot of room for comment and discussion. It did not focus on false teachers, and quite frankly, is an important subject that a lot of Christians should read. Besides, you said you didn't read it, so how did you so quickly determine that it didn't belong here? You are the only one that mentioned names - Warren, Meyer, Hinn - the article did not.
In defence of Carmela, the article did mention 'false' teachers. Robert Schuller's teachings were called heretical and a very derogatory remark about Benny Hinn was made.
That was my problem HFHS, when I read your posts the first time I saw BH's name, but didn't see it a second time.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
It was an inadvertent cut and paste error tyring to fit too much text in one pane; I never saw it. In fact, I would have argued with you just now about Shuller being named in the article except that I just did a find searcha nd yep there he is. I did not when I read the article see the names, I was sincere when I said that the article did not put anyone down. I guess I need to read more closely.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
sister helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
I would have argued with you just now about Shuller being named in the article except that I just did a find searcha nd yep there he is. I did not when I read the article see the names, I was sincere when I said that the article did not put anyone down. I guess I need to read more closely.
Yes, that's true, we probably should read things more closely, but we do not often have the "luxury of time" to read it all, but, gathering that an article is interesting, goes ahead and posts it.
By the way, HFHS, you also write quote:
I certainly dont try and edit other people's stuff and use for my own.
Personally, I don't see a problem with learning stuff from people and then using it as my own in my own uses for it.
But when I take parts of a book like Edersheim or J.H Allen, I usually just say "adapted from J.H. Allen" or whatever, because "it's partial".
But in this case, HisGrace, I did not know until just now that the article contained the names of Robert Schuller and of Benny Hinn, in what, a put-down way, was that it? So in a way HisGrace had some ground for protest, it turns out, and you admitted as much, HFHS.
God bless all of us on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
I wasn't even offended by the post but I guess I came across that way. My point was that I see different denominations being discussed and I don't agree with all of what was said.
I choose to be non-denominational for a simple reason. I don't feel that I need to be under man's label. His banner over me is love. His label upon me is Jesus. I don't need to be labeled Penecostal, Baptist, or anything else. I haven't found a church that preaches some of what I saw posted in the post.
I did read through the lists and I feel they are labels that people are trying to place on others because not all churches fall under the teachings listed so it leads people astray. I agree however, that not all denominations are teaching correct doctrine and that many overlook sin and allow it in the church which is an abomination to the Lord. God will deal with them. I have heard of many time when God has revealed His truth to people that were preaching unsound doctrine or not fullfilling their ministerial duties as they should.
For instance this, quote:
Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful such as drinking, smoking, dancing, watching movies or TV or even listening to certain Christian music. Some do not even allow musical instruments in church but these same churches ignore actions of the flesh like gluttony, gossip and judging everyone as sinners who have the greater faith to believe that God does not abide by their list of man made forbidden activities
This isn't always true. Churches do try to address the issues and even if they don't the answers are right there in the bible for us to find outselves, but we are all human we all sin. Also, many choose to rely on the spoken word instead of searching out the truth for themselves, which is wrong of course. We are all guilty of these sins at times. A Pastor can preach a sermon, but the people are the ones that make up the church. The people are sinners, it's just the way it is. No, it doesn't make it right by any means but we are all responsible for our own actions. We can preach a good message, but in the end the responsibility will be on each individual. The church does not teach that these things are ok to overlook. In fact, went to many churches in Vermont when I was looking for a home church and again when I came here and I NEVER found a church that said that it's ok to overlook those things mentioned.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helforhomeschoolers;Some have created lists of actions of the flesh that they say are sinful such as drinking, smoking, dancing, watching movies or TV or even listening to certain Christian music.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
From HG - Oh my. To me it's a no brainer - it's a sin. (Smoking)
Praise God he does not choose us for our brains huh? There are lots of things that I see that are no brainers to me and you disagree.
Wont be the first time today that I have been accused of being brainless Hisgrace, and probably not the last time that you and I will disagree on what is or is not sin. There are somethings that are not specifically listed in the scripture as sin that can be sin to one man and not sin to another.
Oh come on HFHS you know right well that I didn't accuse you of being brainless. I said 'to me'
It really has been on my mind that a Christian would even remotely question that cigarette smoking is not a sin.
We have a ban on cigarette smoking in public places citywide for at least five years now, even in bars and pubs, because the Health Dept. really is aware of the dangers of smoke and second-hand smoke. There are going to be strict laws put in place for the whole province by the the first part of next year banning smoking, even on restaurant patios in the summer.
There is a woman in my city in her fifties who is dying from lung cancer, and she never smoked a day in her life. She was a waitress for years in smoke-filled restaurants and the doctors say the cancer is from second-hand smoke. Just recently she announced that she is in the final stages of cancer. She has been going to high schools throughout the province of Ontario, explaining to teenagers the dangers of smoking .
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself
Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on
:
Why wouldn't smoking be a sin.
I personnally think that it can be considered a sin. Here in brief is a why. Well hope fully in brief.
When I first came to know the Lord I knew a young man who was only 16. This kid gave his life to Christ but he continued to smoke. At first I had no problem with it. Eventually I did though. Here is why. This kids parents didn't want him smoking. Since they told him not to it started to be a problem with me that he did.
One day he came over we were talking Jesus and he said come outside I want to smoke. While we were out there I basically told him he should quit because what he was doing was wrong. In fact I told him that he was breaking seven of the ten commandments by smoking. I then told him how
I thought he was breaking them. Here is how.
1) because he was addited in a sence he had made them a god to him or atleast an idol.
2) Because he wasn't old enough to buy them he had to either have someone buy for him or get them from someone. This would be considered stealing.
3) If his parents said they didn't want him to smoke and he did, then he wsn't honoring his parents.
4) Well smoking does kill right. So now he is commeting murder.
5) Every time he saw someone with a smoke and said wow I need one of those then he was coveting.
6) Kind of hard to keep the Sabbath holy if you are breaking all these commandements on it.
7) Because he was smoking but telling his paerents he wasn't well I guess that is a lie .
Now does this imply to all smokers. No it doesn't but I bet you can get a few broken commandments if you are addicted to the little nasty things.
So if you smoke which commadments are you breaking.
My wife smoke and she ended up quiting she basically said that she would feel embarressed if Christ was to tap her on the shoulder and say hello while she had a cigerette in her hand.
God bless you all
greg
Posted by timspong (Member # 5240) on
:
I agree that smoking is a sin and that it is a sin against the body. However, we should not judge someone who smokes, something that I think most of us are guilty of.
I think it is definately idolitary, because it temporarily fullfills a desire that should be directed towards God. However, rather than condem others we should be constantly trying to improve ourselves by comparison to Christ, not other sinners. That path will only lead to resentment and/or pride.
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0