This is topic Jesus' Healing Ministry in forum Bible Topics & Study at Christian Message Boards.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004092
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Let's look at Jesus' ministry and see how he healed the people of his day. Before some assume that I believe that everyone is sick because of sin, I would like to quote a portion of John 9
Vrs's 1-3As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life
~I learned three lessons from this scripture -
1. This man wasn't blind because of any sin in his life or sin in his parents' lives,
2. He was made blind so that God could receive glory through his building of character, by giving the man strength in his adversity and through his eventual healing.
3.Through God's perfect timing he did indeed receive his sight.
~Like the scriptures,we see every case is different in our lives. Sometimes our sickness is caused by sin; sometimes Jesus allows us to be sick in order to draw us closer to Him in our infirmities. Often he allows us to be sick in order to empathize with others with like sicknesses and to be able to help others. Sometimes we have to wait for God's perfect timing to be healed.
~Here is one case where sin was found by Jesus in his ministry.-
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
James 5:16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results.
~There were times when demons prevented immediate healing and extra prayer was necessary -
Mark 9: 25-28 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil spirit. "Spirit of deafness and muteness," he said, "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!" Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy lay there motionless, and he appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd, "He's dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him,"Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?" Jesus replied, "This kind can be cast out only by prayer."
~There were times that Jesus healed everyone present -
Matthew 12:15
But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
~And - there were times when he didn't heal at all because people didn't have enough faith to accept his message.
Luke 9:4, When you enter each village, be a guest in only one home. If the people of the village won't receive your message when you enter it, shake off its dust from your feet as you leave. It is a sign that you have abandoned that village to its fate."
~Sometimes people were healed just by their great faith alone -
Matthew 9: 18 As Jesus was saying this the leader of a synagogue came and knelt down before him "My daughter has just died," he said. "but you can bring her back to life again if you just come and lay your hand upon her."
~She later was healed.
~Sometimes, Jesus healed just because he chose to do so. Look at the story of Lazarus. He was in his grave for four days, and Jesus raised him from the dead.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
Dear sister HisGrace, how are you. You write quote:
John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
2. He was made blind so that God could receive glory through his building of character, by giving the man strength in his adversity and through his eventual healing. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
Regarding the bolded part, I had always thought that the bolded phrase meant that the man was made blind so that God could heal him and thus the works of God were made manifest in the man.
But you think it meant that after the man was healed and strengthened by the Spirit it meant that he was made blind so that God could heal him at one point and then the man’s character would eventually show forth the glory of God?
As I said, I have always thought that it meant that the man was made blind so that the glory and power of God could be made manifest in the man when God healed the man, and this healing would be manifest also to the people watching. IOW, the man was strictly made blind so that God could heal him in front of a lot of people and thus God could show forth His character and ability, not the man.
John 11:40
Jesus said to her, Did I not say to you that, if uou would believe, you would see the glory of God?
John 11:4
When Jesus heard that, He said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
God bless, BORN AGAIN ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Dear sister HisGrace, how are you. You write quote:
John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
2. He was made blind so that God could receive glory through his building of character, by giving the man strength in his adversity and through his eventual healing. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
Regarding the bolded part, I had always thought that the bolded phrase meant that the man was made blind so that God could heal him and thus the works of God were made manifest in the man.
As I was reading this scripture I was thinking the same thing. However, I was reminded in my Spirit of how character is built in our lives through adversity by drawing us closer to the Lord's strength in our infirmities.
This scripture doesn't seem to say that, but I was thinking that it probably would be true for this man in his blindess. His strengthening of character would be built throughout his blind state and would become even more fruitful through his healing.
Maybe I should have stuck to what the scripture says, but don't you think that my 'embellished' explanation would also be a result of his trial?
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Another scripture showing that there were times Jesus' power was unable to flow because of the lack of faith.
Matthew 12:57,58 And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him.
Then Jesus told them, "A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family." And so he did only a few miracles there because of their unbelief.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
All of the healing that Jesus did, Jesus did before the cross; before the stripes that he did bear.
The miracles that Jesus performed were manifest in those who demonstrated faith because they were miracles for the purpose of showing that HE was the Son of the Living GOD and belief of that was demonstrated by FAITH on the part of the believer and resulted in their deliverence.
Jesus is teaching the Gospel of Grace in the natural. Belief by Faith in and of Christ leads to Redemption, Salvation, deliverance from sin.
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Jesus healed according to the amount of faith they had.
Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
2 Corinthians 10:15
Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly.
I love the description of faith as given my Charles Stanley :
There are three levels of faith -
1.Little Faith -restless, struggling, wavering
2.Great Faith -reaching, maturing faith
Focused on God, not circumstances
Patient
3.Perfect Faith - resting faith
It's a Done Deal
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
Mark 9: 25-28 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil spirit. "Spirit of deafness and muteness," he said, "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!" Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy lay there motionless, and he appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd, "He's dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him,"Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?" Jesus replied "This kind can be cast out only by prayer."
HisGrace you quoted the above scripture but I see a flaw in that version. What was actually said was that it takes prayer and fasting to cast out some demons. What was being said there was that prayer alone doesn't always work. So we are to be fasting and praying in advace because if someone asks for prayer we can't always say, "ok, wait a few days while I go fast and then I will come back and pray for you." We are to fast and pray regularly.
HFHS Jesus did do miracles, but I don't believe that He mainly did it to show people who he is. In a way He did, but He also said the people had little faith because the would only believe because they saw signs and wonders and miracles. He wanted them and us to believe by faith. If Jesus was healing to show his divinity, then I don't believe He would have told His disciples to go and heal also. Jesus was showing us by example that power and authority that He has given to us in His name.
I like how Jesus didn't follow any pattern. That is kind of what you said in your post HisGrace. Jesus did things differently as He healed and throughout His ministry. It helps me to remember to never put God in a box because sometimes I find it's easy for me to put Him a box, By this I mean to limit what He can and will do through and to others. Although I can't physically limit Him, I can prevent Him from using me completely by limiting what I think He can do.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Carmela:
Mark 9: 25-28 When Jesus saw that the crowd of onlookers was growing, he rebuked the evil spirit. "Spirit of deafness and muteness," he said, "I command you to come out of this child and never enter him again!" Then the spirit screamed and threw the boy into another violent convulsion and left him. The boy lay there motionless, and he appeared to be dead. A murmur ran through the crowd, "He's dead." But Jesus took him by the hand and helped him to his feet, and he stood up.
Afterward, when Jesus was alone in the house with his disciples, they asked him,"Why couldn't we cast out that evil spirit?" Jesus replied "This kind can be cast out only by prayer."
HisGrace you quoted the above scripture but I see a flaw in that version. What was actually said was that it takes prayer and fasting to cast out some demons.
Very important point Carmela. Out of the five versions I just looked up only two had 'prayer and fasting.'
quote:
From Carmela -I like how Jesus didn't follow any pattern. That is kind of what you said in your post HisGrace. Jesus did things differently as He healed and throughout His ministry. It helps me to remember to never put God in a box because sometimes I find it's easy for me to put Him a box, By this I mean to limit what He can and will do through and to others. Although I can't physically limit Him, I can prevent Him from using me completely by limiting what I think He can do.
"It helps me to remember to never put God in a box.' is a great way of explaining it Carmela. That shows how unconditional his love is and how He doesn't want us to be too legalistic in our views. It helps us to become more empathetic, because every case is different.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
Another scripture showing that there were times Jesus' power was unable to flow because of the lack of faith.
Based on what do we determine that this is because God is unable or is limited by man's faith as opposed to because healing was the "Children's" bread and not for those who were not "children", lost sheep, believers?
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
This scripture explains more clearly the scripture in Isaiah which says 'by his stripes we were healed". It shows that Isaiah was indeed referring to our physical infirmities.
Matthew 8:16,17(KJV) When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 'Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.'
Posted by Robby (Member # 448) on
:
Some things I've been noticing about when Jesus healed people. Power went out from Jesus, but then people were healed by their faith (like when he healed the woman with the flow of blood).
Another thing is that when an evil spirit is cast out (like a house which is swept clean and things are put in order), it goes out to a void and waits, then come back multiplied. So if the Holy Spirit doesn't come in a fill that emptiness inside the body, then there is trouble.
One more thing is there is no instance in the Gospels of Jesus healing a disciple. The number of miracles Jesus performed were endless, so it could have happened, but there just isn't any written record. Mary Magdalene would seem to be about the closest there is (she was healed of demons). She wasn't one of the 12, but she was a devout follower.
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
Those are very good points Robby. You said: quote:
Some things I've been noticing about when Jesus healed people. Power went out from Jesus, but then people were healed by their faith (like when he healed the woman with the flow of blood).
I think this shows that we can't limit Jesus. He works in many ways. Also, He said that we can also do all things in "His" power. Jesus gave us the authority to do all of the same works that He did.
Luke 9:1-2
1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
I believe this same authority was given to us. Partly because once Jesus released the authority, it wasn't only the disciples that healed. Remember,
Mark 9:38-40
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
They weren't disciples, but they were able to move in Jesus' Power and Authority still.
quote:
Another thing is that when an evil spirit is cast out (like a house which is swept clean and things are put in order), it goes out to a void and waits, then come back multiplied. So if the Holy Spirit doesn't come in a fill that emptiness inside the body, then there is trouble.
This is another good point you made Robby. This shows me that 1) if I am going to cast a demon out of someone, I need to make sure they are discipled after so that the demons can't come back in multiple numbers. If I can't disciple them myself because I'm visiting a church or something, then I should make sure that they are hooked up in a church and with a Pastor or mentor that can teach them so the Holy Spirit fills that place and the demons can not return. I don't think I really thought about this much in this way until I read what you said. Thanks.
There isn't much we know about whether Jesus healed the disciples or not. Maybe most of the disciples lived in divine health so they didn't need to be healed. There is still so much we don't know. It's kind of like talking to people online. We can get to really know a part of each other, but there is this whole world of each other that we don't know anything about and in most cases never will. The same is true with God, Jesus and the bible. Until we meet our Maker, we will just never know or comprehend the fullness of who He really is.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another scripture showing that there were times Jesus' power was unable to flow because of the lack of faith.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Based on what do we determine that this is because God is unable or is limited by man's faith as opposed to because healing was the "Children's" bread and not for those who were not "children", lost sheep, believers?
Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. 58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
I didn't know if you were giving me an answer or no Hisgrace. I didnt see anything in that scripture or in Isaiah that says that Jesus' power was UNABLE to flow because men lacked faith. Do you have some scripture to support this
It seems to me that the scripture supports that he did not heal those that were without faith because healing was not for them, but for the children of the Kingdom who are children because of faith. Faith then being the determining factor in whom healing was intended.
I also do not see the point of refering to Isaiah 53 "with his stripes" because all of this healing occured prior to HIS stripes so they must be different healings. Isaiah 53 "with his stripes we are healed cannot apply to the miracles of the Gospels as the miracles happend before the stripes.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
You are starting to split hairs Linda.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Many think that it is almost a sin to have a mega-church, but in Jesus' short three-ministry he ministered to thousands at one time. Just think if he had continued - it would have grown and grown and grown!
Mark 6:44
And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.
Mark 1:41-45
Moved with pity, Jesus touched him. "I want to," he said. "Be healed!" Instantly the leprosy disappeared--the man was healed. Then Jesus sent him on his way and told him sternly, "Go right over to the priest and let him examine you. Don't talk to anyone along the way. Take along the offering required in the law of Moses for those who have been healed of leprosy, so everyone will have proof of your healing."
But as the man went on his way, he spread the news, telling everyone what had happened to him. As a result, such crowds soon surrounded Jesus that he couldn't enter a town anywhere publicly. He had to stay out in the secluded places, and people from everywhere came to him there.
It is interesting that we got the name 'evangelist' from Jesus' time -
2 Timothy 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
There were several time when Jesus healed people and we don't know if they were saved or not. They believe Jesus could heal them but it didn't say if they were Christians or not.
Matt 9:27-30
27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.
(KJV)
Matt 12:22-23
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
(KJV)
Mark 8:22-26
22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
26 And he sent him away to his house, saying, Neither go into the town, nor tell it to any in the town.
(KJV)
Many didn't say anything about giving God the praise until after Jesus caused them to see.
I can find more stories like this if I need to but I think this shows that Jesus healed people because he loved and cared about them, not because they were a part of the Kingdom.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
As you say Carmela "We can't put God in a box." My main purpose for this thread was to show that every case is different.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Carmela: None of them were christians. This happened before his death and resurection and ascension and before the Holy Ghost was given to the Church! Not one that Jesus healed was a Christian!
HisGrace: It honestly is not my intention to split hairs. It is my intention to understand how you can claim that Jesus was unable to heal except that a person had faith to be healed. Jesus had power over all sickness and disease and could have healed a fish of ick if he so desired.
I am trying to get you to show me the scripture that says that the healing Power of God is limited by the faith of men.
You have said it is so; please back it up with scripture so that the rest of us can believe it is so.
Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on
:
HFHS That was my point. I was showing that Jesus didn't only heal by faith. He also healed non-believers.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
HisGrace: It honestly is not my intention to split hairs. It is my intention to understand how you can claim that Jesus was unable to heal except that a person had faith to be healed. Jesus had power over all sickness and disease and could have healed a fish of ick if he so desired.
I am trying to get you to show me the scripture that says that the healing Power of God is limited by the faith of men.
You have said it is so; please back it up with scripture so that the rest of us can believe it is so.
There are many instances where Jesus said 'Thy faith hath made thee whole;' so therefore if great faith worked - little faith didnt.
Luke 8:49 While he was still speaking to her, a messenger arrived from Jairus's home with the message, "Your little girl is dead. There's no use troubling the Teacher now." But when Jesus heard what had happened, he said to Jairus, "Don't be afraid. Just trust me, and she will be all right."
Mark 5:34And he said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace. You have been healed.
~Let's remember that Jesus was still in the flesh when he walked on this earth. he had to rely on God's power the same way we do.
John 5:19Jesus replied, "I assure you, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and tells him everything he is doing, and the Son will do far greater things than healing this man. You will be astonished at what he does.
John 14:0-10 Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him?
Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I say are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me.
Acts 1:1,2 In my first book I told you about everything Jesus began to do and teach until the day he ascended to heaven after giving his chosen apostles further instructions from the Holy Spirit.
~When Peter walked on the water, Jesus was right there, but still Peter sank because of lack of faith..
Matthew 14:25-33About three o'clock in the morning Jesus came to them, walking on the water. When the disciples saw him, they screamed in terror, thinking he was a ghost. But Jesus spoke to them at once. "It's all right," he said. "I am here! Don't be afraid."
Then Peter called to him, "Lord, if it's really you, tell me to come to you by walking on water." "All right, come," Jesus said.
So Peter went over the side of the boat and walked on the water toward Jesus. But when he looked around at the high waves, he was terrified and began to sink. "Save me, Lord!" he shouted.
Instantly Jesus reached out his hand and grabbed him. "You don't have much faith," Jesus said. "Why did you doubt me?" And when they climbed back into the boat, the wind stopped. Then the disciples worshiped him. "You really are the Son of God!" they exclaimed.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
so therefore if great faith worked - little faith didnt.
You can conclude that those with faith were healed.
You cannot conclude that those of little faith or no faith were not. Jesus did not attempt to heal any and fail because the one sick lacked faith.
There is no scriptural support to show that healing does not "work" in the absence of faith.
Note even the situation where the apostles were not able to cast out a demon. It was not the lack of faith of the one possessed, but the lack of faith of the one casting out that was issue, and even then, Jesus taught that God must approve it thus they would have had to fast and pray; note that Jesus did not need to fast and pray because Jesus was in one accord with the will of God.
Matthew 17:19 Then the disciples having come to Jesus by himself, said, ‘Wherefore were we not able to cast him out?’
20 And Jesus said to them, ‘Through your want of faith; for verily I say to you, if ye may have faith as a grain of mustard, ye shall say to this mount, Remove hence to yonder place, and it shall remove, and nothing shall be impossible to you,and this kind doth not go forth except in prayer and fasting.’
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
You cannot conclude that those of little faith or no faith were not. Jesus did not attempt to heal any and fail because the one sick lacked faith.
There is no scriptural support to show that healing does not "work" in the absence of faith.
I am sure there is no scriptural support to say that it does work without faith either.
quote:
Note even the situation where the apostles were not able to cast out a demon. It was not the lack of faith of the one possessed, but the lack of faith of the one casting out that was issue,
In other words there was zero faith from both sides.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
Dear HisGrace, I liked this Topic exchange between you and helpforhomeschoolers.
HisGrace wrote quote:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
In other words there was zero faith from both sides.
Actually, Jesus was acting on His faith which was 100%. He could heal someone who had 20% faith or 60% faith or 5% faith.
Upon seeing what Jesus could do, faith rose up in many onlookers, and so there most likely was even some percentage of faith in the onlookers being healed. But Jesus healed out of His own faith with was 100% faith, so Jesus could heal someone with 60% and also with 1% faith.
Well, that is a nice thought, BORN AGAIN, but if that was true, then how come Jesus could not do "many" miracles in Nazareth?
Was it because they wouldn't or couldn't worship him that He could not do many miracles there? Since they, more than anyone else knew that "this was the carpenter's son"?
Could Jesus have done miracels at Nazareth if He had wanted to, but He tied it always at least to some faith?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
HisGrace wrote [QUOTE]Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
In other words there was zero faith from both sides.
You have my comments switched around BORN AGAIN.
I quoted "In other words there was zero faith from both sides" before the Hebrews quote. I meant that the disciples had no faith and the man had no faith =zero faith.
After that I quoted Hebrews 11:6 in response to HFHS' statement that healing can come without faith. I agree that it can always if we even have a small amount of faith.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
BA says: quote:
Could Jesus have done miracels at Nazareth if He had wanted to, but He tied it always at least to some faith?
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
That is my point! Thank you and there was reason for that which hisgrace stated:
He is a rewarder of those who seek. He rewarded even the roman ceturion's faith by healing the servant that didn't even know Jesus was gonna heal him.
I could have posted 100 pages and not shown that so clearly!
God's power is not limited by man or beast or demon!
But there is more.... Jesus was teaching something in the natural that is ours in the Spiritual and we miss it by clinging to the natural.... we totally miss what he was teaching about what was coming to the Church. What the church has those Jesus healed do not have (unless they became the church). But on that note it is interesting that he did not heal any of the disciples of anything.(the closest thing sbeing casting demons out of Mary) What those Jesus healed got the church has no need of.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
That is my point! Thank you and there was reason for that which hisgrace stated:
He is a rewarder of those who seek. He rewarded even the roman ceturion's faith by healing the servant that didn't even know Jesus was gonna heal him.
You have lost me HFHS. The way you printed the above quote it looks like I said it, which I didn't. Anyway, the key word in the above statement is 'faith'. I have made it clear that I agree that there always has to be some time type of faith, be it big or small.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
ha ha ha Sometimes I have been known to loose me, so dont feel bad Hisgrace, that I lost you.
I was refering to this that you said:
quote:
In other words there was zero faith from both sides.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
It appeared to me that you were pointing out that GOD rewards those of faith, since without faith none do come seeking him. I aggree with this. I dont think that it heals the gulf between us in other area, but sometimes you have to look at at least the things you can agree on.
Amen?
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
that was good: "He is a rewarder of those who seek. He rewarded even the roman ceturion's faith by healing the servant who didn't even know Jesus was going to heal him".
He could have done the miracles, but He chose to do it only for those who showed a percentage of f faith, seeking Him. Perfect. God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Yes Amen HFHS- I saw a powerful sermon on the importance of prayer by Dr.Charles Stanley to-night.
I may post some thoughts on it at some point. Some of the scriptures he quoted have been up for a wide variety of interpretations, so it will be interesting to see how you react if I open such a thread HFHS. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif)
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
Just kidding - I think lol.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
The way I see it, it is not possible to be healed without some type of contact from an earthly source to heaven, through faith, even if it is only the size of a mustard seed. Sort of like a lightening rod, for want of a better description.
There has to be that connection. Back to "Without faith it is impossible to please Him."
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
HisGrace, you thought that faith connection had to be there, sort of like a lightning rod. Helpforhomeschoolers mentioned the ruler who interceded with Jesus for his servant, while his servant may not have known about that at all and may or may not have heard of Jesus's abilities.
So can others "stand in" for the faith of others? Or is it all about those people who were "under the centurion, I say, do this and he does it? And about those people (angels) who are "under Jesus" who says "do this" and "they do it"?
HisGrace, could Jesus heal without faith on the part of the receiver if Jesus wanted to, yes or no?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
So can others "stand in" for the faith of others?
Yes indeed.
BORN AGAIN, you and HFHS are disputing the fact that I say that Jesus doesn't heal without a faith componenet, but you always come with these statements "Yah but", and then you put the word "faith" in these statements. So these cases are operating under faith. No matter where it comes from, faith is still involved, even if it is as small as a mustard seed.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
BORN AGAIN, you and HFHS are disputing the fact that I say that Jesus doesn't heal without a faith componenet, but you always come with these statements "Yah but", and then you put the word "faith" in these statements. So these cases are operating under faith. No matter where it comes from, faith is still involved, even if it is as small as a mustard seed.
I beg to differ HisGrace. You did not say no matter where it comes from there must be faith. You said and I debated this:
quote:
Jesus' power was unable to flow because of the lack of faith.
Jesus is Faith; He has all faith; has never been without faith and you stated that HIS power was unable to flow in Galilee because the people there had not faith. Implying that one must have faith to receive healing. That God is unable to heal where the sick have not faith.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
James 1:5-8 If you need wisdom--if you want to know what God wants you to do--ask him, and he will gladly tell you. He will not resent your asking. But when you ask him, be sure that you really expect him to answer, for a doubtful mind is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.
People like that should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. They can't make up their minds. They waver back and forth in everything they do.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Barriers to Faith - Charles F. Stanley
Moses was chosen for a task that he did not think he could do. Even though he had knelt before a bush that God had ignited with a divine fire, he had not fully grasped the mighty power and ability of God.
Why do we experience barriers to our faith? Like many people, Moses had a limited understanding of God. At this point, he certainly could not visualize the Lord as being personal, loving, and involved in the cares of mankind. God was sending a deliverer to the nation of Israel, and Moses was the one the Lord had chosen to fill this position.
One thing that can be said for Moses is that he honestly expressed what he was feeling:
"What if they will not believe me or listen to what I say?" asked Moses. "For they may say, ‘The Lord has not appeared to you.’"
Moses was experiencing a faith barrier, and, sadly, standing before the holy fire of God was not enough to convince him differently. Usually, a barrier to faith is revealed through an attitude that short-circuits a person’s trust in God.
Simply put, it is anything that blocks our faith in Christ. When this happens, the power of God is hindered in our lives. There was no way Moses could do what God had called him to do until his attitude was adjusted. And even though Moses recounted his many weaknesses to God, the Lord remained firm in His call. Moses was the one He had chosen to lead the nation of Israel out of bondage and to the borders of the Promised Land.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
So can others "stand in" for the faith of others?
Yes indeed.
BORN AGAIN, you and HFHS are disputing the fact that I say that Jesus doesn't heal without a faith componenet, but you always come with these statements "Yah but", and then you put the word "faith" in these statements. So these cases are operating under faith. No matter where it comes from, faith is still involved, even if it is as small as a mustard seed.
Good insight.
God has shown by the scripture examples that He heals by faith.
He of course could heal everyone as He is God, but according to the scriptures He requires Faith.
Any other doctrine adds to what scripture does NOT teach.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
John 5:1-8
Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for a feast of the Jews. Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades.
Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed.One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?"
"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me."
Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
Isn't it very interesting that Jesus asked."Do you want to be well?" It looks like he is saying. " Come on guy, you have been coming to this pool for 38 yrs.; you would think that some way or some how you would have wiggled over to that pool if you really wanted to be healed."
This man would have to admit by his healing that he indeed was a sinner and perhaps he was fearful of what God would ask of him spiritually and physically down the road. He was in his safety zone just lying by the pool. He was afraid to go out into the deep so to speak.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
HisGrace writes quote:
He was afraid to go out into the deep so to speak.
He was also lame and no doubt discouraged after years of being lame; it can take the "wind out of one's sails".
What is also interesting is that, in spite of Jesus perhaps saying, in so many words, "Come on man, you've been laying here all these years, couldn't you have made more of an effort?", it is interesting that Jesus for all that "picked this man out of the crowd" to be healed.
There were multitudes there by the pool of Bethesda; but was there something about this man that caused Jesus to pick him, or did Jesus "just need someone" to heal as a testimony and it did not matter "who" it was?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
There were multitudes there by the pool of Bethesda; but was there something about this man that caused Jesus to pick him, or was did Jesus "just need someone" to heal as a testimony and it did not matter "who" it was?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
That just shows how deep and endless Jesus' unconditional love is.
We see further down in the passage that this man was still a sinner after 38 years, but he certainly had been seeking during that whole time. Jesus honoured that tenacity.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
From Joni Eareckson.s Book 'A Step Further' she talks about Job.
"I came across the story of Job, the classic example of suffering. If anyone ever needed to undestand the 'why' behind his condition it was Job. His family had been killed, his property ruined and stolen, and his body inflicted with boils. Not until the last five chapters of the book does God finally walk onstage to answer the questions and challenges of Job and his friends. And when He does, do you know what reason God gives Job for all the suffering, he has experienced? None. Not a word. he doesn't sit Job down and say, "Listen carefully while I give you the inside story on why I've let you go through all of this. You see, My plan is..." In fact, so far is God from answering Job's questions that he says, "Stand up, Job. I've got a few questions to ask you."
For the next four chapters God does nothing but describe in detail the awesome majesty of his own works in nature, and then asks job if he can match them,..... It seemed so confusing. But as I came to chapter four, some light began to dawn. God finally asked Job a question that seemed to focus in on what He been driving at all along. "Do you still want to argue with the Almighty! Or will you yield? Do you -God's critic -have the answers? Stand up like a man and brace yourself for battle. Let me ask you a question, and give the answer. Are you going to discredit my justice and condemn me, so that you say you are right.?" (Job 40:1,7,8}
She went on to point out that God explained that if Job couldn't even undertand how God did things in the natural realm, how could he understand how God did things in the spiritual realm?.
Then Joni says."God has already proven how much His love can be trusted by sending Christ to die for us. Wasn't that enough? Not for me. I always wanted to be on the inside lookng out - sitting with the Lord up in the control tower, intead of down on the confusing ground level.He couldn't be trusted unless I was there to oversee things!
She further says that in her frustration to become healed that she said. "How could I have dared to assume that almighty God owed me explanations. Did I think that because I had done God the 'favor' of becoming a Christian, He must now check things out with me." Was the Lord of the universe under obligation to show me how the trials of every human being fit into the tapesty of life? Had I never read Deut. 29:29. There are secrets the Lord your God has not revealed to us."
"If God's mind was small enough for me to understand, He wouldn't be God! How wrong I had been. I thought back to those early days of studying God's Word when the puzzle pieces of my suffering began fitting together How sweet the first taste of wisdom was. There's nothing like seeing our difficulties from God's perspective. But what mistake to think that I would ever be able to complete the whole puzzle of suffering. For wisdom is more than just seeing our problems through Gods' eyes - it's also trusting him even when the pieces don't seem to fit.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
We can see that Jesus chose to, and still chooses to, to deal with every healing in a different way.
We should never give up hope for our healing because, as said in Luke 6:19 'he healed them all.'
Luke 6:19 And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
The way I see it, it is not possible to be healed without some type of contact from an earthly source to heaven, through faith, even if it is only the size of a mustard seed. Sort of like a lightening rod, for want of a better description.
That faith could come from someone 3000 miles away, or from the cashier at the checkout counter at the local supermarket, who may be prompted to intercede for someone going through her cash. I have prayed while walking through a mall or sitting in a bus, for God to protect everyone within eye contact. Who knows how far-reaching those prayer can be.
Gen 1:26 The God said, "Let us make people." in our image to be like ourselves. They will be masters over all life - the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky and the livestock, wild animals, and small animals"
When sin entered this world Adam broke man's covenant from God, and thus became separated from God through this sin. However, we were left with faith to make that connection with God.
You would think that the lame man beside the pool of Bethsheda obviously would have enough faith to be healed if he persistently kept coming for 38 years, but still Jesus asked him "Do you want to be healed." He needed that connection to God.
Again, as Hebrews 11:6 says, "Without faith it is impossble to please God."
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I also do not see the point of refering to Isaiah 53 "with his stripes" because all of this healing occured prior to HIS stripes so they must be different healings. Isaiah 53 "with his stripes we are healed cannot apply to the miracles of the Gospels as the miracles happend before the stripes.
The following scripture is from the Gospels right in the midst of Jesus' healing ministry.
Matthew 8:14-17 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
Justice and Harmony found with the Lord Christ Jesus.
Compelled to give obervation of the two-foldedness of prophetic truth. To qualify this, I would say that not only is prohetic truth of a two-fold application, by His stripes are we healed, that this applies equally across all dispensational boundries. All people need this. All people sin, and all people are only saved by His grace and blood on the tree. This is non-dispensational. At the same time, that His healing ministry was equally prophetic, it apples to Israel, as we have it by His own statements, He came not but for...Israel, saying, go not unto the way of the gentiles.
Standing right there before our very Lord and Savior, He refuses to even respond to the gentile dog, the woman in The Savior's, The Amen's very presence asking for healing for her child no less, "But he answered her not a word".
I would say, even though it is written in the OT that the nations that blessed Israel would be blessed, well, it was awefully hard to get anything out of them if you were there in the presence of the very Lord and Savior Himself if you weren't Hebrew.
Then the disciples went to rush her away, and the Lord finally says something, "He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
That is our Lord and Savior! How clear it is that He came to restore the Kingdom to Israel, just as they again turned to in Acts1.
Notice now, that when she stopped calling Him as the Jews called Him, "Lord, thou son of David", for she had no right as an outsider to do so, she then 'worshiped called Him by saying, Lord, help me", by a title a gentile could use, then He has a responce.
When He actually speaks with her, even then though, "He answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs:.
And that is where He left the conversation open in a purposeful manner. What is missed here in English, is that this word 'dogs' is in the deminitive. That means he called her a little puppy dog. In Israel, the custom was to permit little puppies a slieght affection for about 2 months, then kick them out as mostly wild. She took advantage of the opening the Lord provided her, as is right. It is always right to seek the best things the Lord has to offer, and call Him by His exceeding demanded and rightful title, with the 'article - THE' - The Lord Christ Jesus.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. - Mat 15 -
Christ Jesus the Lord's ministry was dispensational. His healing ministry was the signs the children of Israel had been trained for centuries to acknowledge and so receive Him. Only after proving Himself to be the very embodiment of the prophecied king, priest, prophet, and rejected in Mat12 that the Christ then proceeds to speak only in parables, Mat13.
I want to point out that only the demons called Christ by His first name. They called Him Jesus. You should see then, that in the very verse above, He is simply referred to as Jesus. I will say, well, yes, silly, we are so soon to forget that this is the Holy Spirit writing these Scriptures. The Holy Spirit is in the Family of God the Father, as Scripture reveals, and God the Son, as Scripture reveals, and God the Holy Spirit, as Scripture reveals. But only the demons call the Lord Christ Jesus by His first name. It is simply disrespectful. If we should give title to say, the queen of England, then how much more so is the Lord deserving?
A word on the difference between saying Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus from the appendix of the Companion Bible:
IX. CHRIST.
This is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Mashiah. See No. VIII. Christos has the same meaning, from chrio , to anoint. Hence, the Noun is used of and for the Messiah, and in the Gospels should always be translated "Messiah", as well as in the Acts, and sometimes in the later books of the New Testament.
X. JESUS.
Iesous is the same as the Hebrew Jehoshua, or the abbreviated form of Joshua (compare Hebrews 4:8), and means [the] Salvation of Jehovah, or Jehovah [the] Saviour. The name "Jesus" expresses the relation of Jehovah to Him in Incarnation, by which "He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" (Philippians. 2:8); Who, being God, did not deem His glory a thing not to be thus relinquished (see note on "robbery", Philippians 2:6). The name "Jesus" is the name associated with "the shame" which He endured in order to "save His People from their sins" (Matthew 1:21). His People therefore never addressed Him as "Jesus", but always as "Master" (No. XIV. v) or "Lord" (VI. i. a. 3). (John 13:13,14. Luke 6:46), and so should all His people to-day; not following the example of demons (Matthew 8:29), or of His enemies, who irreverently called Him "Jesus".
XI. JESUS CHRIST.
In the combination of these two names, the former is emphatic by its position, the second being subsidiary and explanatory. In the Gospels it means "Jesus the Messiah". In the Epistles it means Jesus Who humbled Himself but is now exalted and glorified as Christ. Care should be taken to note the various readings.
XII. CHRIST JESUS.
This is the converse of "Jesus Christ" (XI) and denotes the now exalted One, Who once humbled Himself.
XIII. CHRIST THE LORD.
This is the Hebrew Mashiah Jehovah = Jehovah's Anointed, as in 1Samuel 24:6. Occasionally only in Luke 2:11; and with the Article = the Anointed of Jehovah, Luke 2:26.
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
dear epouraniois, you write, among other things which i have all read yet:[quote]Then the disciples went to rush her away, and the Lord finally says something, "He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
That is our Lord and Savior! How clear it is that He came to restore the Kingdom to Israel, just as they again turned to in Acts1.
I thought instead that our Lord had come to call teh house of Israel, some of whom were still in Galilee in the old territory of Zebulun, Naphtali, and Asher, but no longer any in Samaria, Jesus went up to Galilee to preach repentance to the house of Israel in Galiliee.
In my opinion, Jesus had only come the first time to for one last time call Judan and Israel to repentance, bypassing Samaria, and whosoever believed in Him was repenting, and the others were condemned to the coming destruction of 70 A.D.
In what sense do you say then, epouraniois, that "How clear it is that He came to restore the Kingdom to Israel?
And, in brief, how does this relate to Acts 1?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
Israel had been divorced, they were lost, not physically. There is no evidence that Paul had any difficulty in finding them all evey one. By the time Christ is born, the term Jews is only a commonality of mode, that is to say, no matter what tribe anyone was of, they were all called Jews, see Acts2, 3, see Smith's Bible Dictionary.
At the end of Acts, Judah also divorces God, thus, Lo-ammi.
the word departed in Acts28. 26 *I think* is different than the word departed in v.29.
Paul is a Benjamite, yet calls himself Jew. Paul constantly preachd, to the Jew first, even though he was in Asia, preaching to the diasporia, the very same Jews James and Peter write to.
They new exactly where the dispersed Jews *Israel* was to be found, in the synogagues of these other countries.
To God, Israel is one nation. To man, there is confusion, because our teachers tell us there are 12, and they are lost. They were never lost physically, God knows just where they are. They are not lost to their pedigree, they all still are taught of their Jewish heritage even to this day. They were lost because God had divorced them. God is to reunite them into one body. Till then, they are all lost from God. They are not lost in any other way. Think about it, when you move to another place, you still no who you are right? Well, these did too, they set up synogagues, wherein Paul was not permitted to go into any city or township that did not have a synogague.
Christ only spoke to 2 gentiles in His entire ministry, one of them He answered not a word, and then later, upon responding, said He didn't come for her, a gentile dog, but only for Israel, the lost house of Israel, who He had divorced. God divorced Israel, the rest divorced God. Now they are in their Lo-ammi period while God works out His church for the purpose of Eph3. 9, 10.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I also do not see the point of refering to Isaiah 53 "with his stripes" because all of this healing occured prior to HIS stripes so they must be different healings. Isaiah 53 "with his stripes we are healed cannot apply to the miracles of the Gospels as the miracles happend before the stripes.
The following scripture is from the Gospels right in the midst of Jesus' healing ministry.
Matthew 8:14-17 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
Isa.53
1. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
is interpeted by Pete~
1Pet.2
1. [24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
The use of ISA 53.5 to permote phyiscal healing programs in the Body of Christ is false teaching that should not be followed....
When the author of this post drinks something with a LD100 rating while handeling a few deadly snakes and is raised from the dead after this then all the baseball fans will be impressed.
What does LD100 mean?
LD stands for "Lethal Dose". LD100 is the amount of a material, given all at once, which causes the death of 100% (all) of a group of test animals. The LD100 is one way to measure the short-term poisoning potential (acute toxicity) of a material.
Please stop reposting your sillyness....
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
The use of ISA 53.5 to permote phyiscal healing programs in the Body of Christ is false teaching that should not be followed....
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Ok, maybe you can poohoo Isaiah 53:5, but God has a way of shedding light on all doubt to make the scriptures crystal clear.
Once again -
Matthew 8:14-17 (KJV)And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
THAT IT MIGHT BE FULFILLED WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY ESAIAS THE PROPHET, SAYING HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITEIS AND BARE OUR SICKNESSES.
We can't even say that it is a matter of semantics. It is more than that - there it is in plain black and white.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
As we look at Jesus' healing ministry, we can see that it can be very confusing, if we are praying for a healing in our own personal lives, as to which scriptures are meant for us.
Job's suffering, though very intense, was only for a season. Also, we shouldn't be satisfied to believe that we have to settle for our suffering the same way as Joni Earekson, which she has discerned very clearly is God's will. God is using her infirmities as a world-wide ministry and that is her special anointing.
It just shows that we have to really seek Jesus' face and his will individually. Just because we may have suffered for many years, doesn't mean that it has to be for a lifetime - maybe, like Job, it is only for a season.
Psalm 105:4
Look to the LORD and his strength; seek his face always.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
During the Acts, it can be found that indeed, they were healing the body, James speaks of how they did it with ointment. Paul was given such an powerful outpouring that even a peice of his skirt could be sent far and heal instantly upon touch. Christ told them to go, freely had they received, freely they were to give. Had they accepted the kingdom, repented and turned, the kingdom blessings of the nation would had gone out into all the world, fulfilling the covenant to Abraham, that all the nations should be blessed. This was of course, fulfilling in Christ, yet also brings the application of the priesthood of Israel to the nations, now in abayance until Israel is born unto resurrection, just as those nations she shall teach, when Christ shall reign and rule with a rod of iron, when the nations shall learn, shall accept Him with fiegned obeydiance for a thousand years, as it is written.
There are some that say this could have happened while Christ was yet alive, that IF they had received rather than rejected Yeshuah Messiah, that the outpouring would have gone out into all the world, but this just cannot be true, for Christ hath said:
Luk 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures
Act 1:2
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Act 1:3
To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Act 1:4
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
The use of ISA 53.5 to permote phyiscal healing programs in the Body of Christ is false teaching that should not be followed....
Ok, maybe you can poohoo Isaiah 53:5, but God has a way of shedding light on all doubt to make the scriptures crystal clear.
Once again -
Matthew 8:14-17 (KJV)And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.
And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
THAT IT MIGHT BE FULFILLED WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY ESAIAS THE PROPHET, SAYING HIMSELF TOOK OUR INFIRMITEIS AND BARE OUR SICKNESSES.
We can't even say that it is a matter of semantics. It is more than that - there it is in plain black and white.
You keep forgetting the rest don't you.
Mark.16
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Your trying to apply someone eles mail to what was
commissioned to Paul for the gentiles.
RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD
OF TRUTH
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth."
--II Tim. 2:15.
THE MINISTRIES OF THE TWELVE
AND PAUL COMPARED
The basic cause of the confusion which prevails in the professing Church doctrinally is the failure to recognize the distinctiveness of Paul's message and ministry from that of the twelve. The majority of even sincere believers seem not to have asked themselves the question: Why Paul? They seem not to have taken in the striking fact that after our Lord, in His so-called great commission, had sent the other apostles into "all the world" to preach "the gospel" to "every creature" (Mark 16:15) and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28: 19) --after this, He raised up another apostle, and the twelve through their leaders, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, entered into a solemn agreement with this other apostle that he should go to the Gentiles while they confined their ministry to Israel (Gal. 2:7-9). Thus some years after the "great commission" to the eleven (made twelve in Acts 1:15-26), Paul could declare:
"FOR I SPEAK TO YOU GENTILES, INASMUCH AS I AM THE APOSTLE OF THE GENTILES; I MAGNIFY MINE OFFICE" (Romans 11:13).
Paul himself constantly emphasizes the distinctiveness of his apostleship and message. Three times he speaks of "my gospel" (Rom. 2:16, 16:25, II Tim. 2:8) and repeatedly he uses similar phrases, such as: "the gospel which I preached," "the gospel which was preached of me" and "that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles" (I Cor. 15:1, Gal. 1:11, 2:2). Again and again he makes it plain that his message was received from the Lord (I Cor. 11:23, 15:1, I Thes. 4:15) by direct revelation (Gal. 1:12, Eph. 3:1-3). He even pronounces a curse on any who would preach to the Gentiles any other gospel than that which he had preached. This is why we also find him saying again and again (though in varied phraseology): "Follow me" (I Cor. 4:16, 11:1, Phil. 3:17, I Thes. 1:6, II Thes. 3:9).
This means, as pointed out in the preceding chapter, that the prophetic program, of which the "great commission" was a part, was interrupted by the dispensation of the grace of God through Paul. Hence the importance of distinguishing Paul's message and ministry from that of the twelve.
THE TWELVE APOSTLES
In comparing the ministries of the twelve and Paul in this chapter we will number our statements concerning the twelve apostles so that they may be compared with those concerning Paul.
1. The twelve were chosen by Christ on earth (Luke 6:13).
2. At the time when Paul was raised up the twelve had known only Christ on earth. They had not even seen Him enter heaven at His ascension, for, "a cloud received Him out of their sight" (Acts 1:9).
3. They represented the nation Israel--one for each tribe. This is clear from our Lord's promise to them.
"Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, YE ALSO SHALL SIT UPON TWELVE THRONES, JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL" (Matt. 19:28, cf. Luke 22:29,30).
The sincere and thoughtful student of the Scriptures should take careful note of the fact that the number twelve has no connection whatever with the body of Christ, but that it is constantly found in connection with Israel. "Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs" (Acts 7:8). From these sprang the twelve tribes of Israel. These tribes had twelve princes over them (Num. 1:16). Even when Israel was ruled by kings there were still to be princes to reign with them over each of the twelve tribes (I Chron. 27:22).
All this, of course, had been disrupted by the captivities, but now the long-promised King was in their midst--He who was to "restore again the kingdom to Israel." And as He goes forth proclaiming "the gospel of the kingdom" (Matt. 9:35), He chooses His twelve princes for the twelve thrones over Israel's twelve tribes (Matt. 19:28).
4. These twelve were first sent forth to proclaim the kingdom of heaven at hand (Matt. 10:7, cf. Dan. 2:44) and then, later, to offer it to Israel with a view to carrying the message to all the world (Acts 1:6-8, 3:19-26).
5. They were given power to work miracles (Matt. 10:8, cf. Mark 16:17,18).
6. Their ministry was based upon the covenants and prophecy (Isa. 60:1-3, Luke 1:70-75, Acts 3:22-26).
7. Therefore they were sent to the Jew first and looked for the salvation of the Gentiles through regenerated Israel (Matt. 10:5,6, Luke 24:47, Acts 3:25,26).
8. They ministered in Palestine only (Acts 10:39, 21:17-20).1
9. In their message and ministry they anticipated Israel's acceptance of Christ as King and His return to reign. This was what they labored, hoped and prayed for (Acts 1:11, 3:19-21).
10. In the "great commission" to the twelve, water baptism was required for salvation and miraculous signs were the evidences of salvation (Mark 16:15-18, Acts 2:38).
THE APOSTLE PAUL
The reader is urged to take the time to refer to the numbered paragraphs in the preceding pages and compare Paul's ministry with that of the twelve.
1. Unlike the twelve, Paul was chosen by Christ in heaven (Acts 9:3-5, 26:16).
2. He knew only Christ in heaven, having never seen Him on earth (Acts 26:16, I Cor. 15:8).
3. Paul, as one apostle, represents the body of Christ.2
Here again the thoughtful student of Scripture will notice that whereas the number twelve is never associated with the body of Christ, the number one is consistently associated with it: "We being many, are one body in Christ" (Rom. 12:5), "By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (I Cor. 12:13), "There is one body" (Eph. 4:4), etc.
Moreover, the body is made up of enemies, reconciled to God through the death of His Son (Col. 1:21,22). What a perfect example Paul was of this!
Further, Paul was both a Hebrew and a Roman. He was a born Hebrew (Phil. 3:5) and intensely so (Phil. 3:5,6). But he was also a Roman, a born Roman, and intensely Roman.
When the magistrates at Philippi sent word that Paul and Silas were to be released, Paul refused to go, saying:
"THEY HAVE BEATEN US OPENLY UNCONDEMNED, BEING ROMANS, AND HAVE CAST US INTO PRISON; AND NOW DO THEY THRUST US OUT PRIVILY? NAY VERILY; BUT LET THEM COME THEMSELVES AND FETCH US OUT" (Acts 16:37).
Here they demanded an apology from the Roman magistrates and, mark well, the magistrates "came and besought them, and brought them out" (Verse 39).
Later, at Jerusalem, while the soldiers bound Paul for examination by scourging, Paul said to the centurion that stood by: "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man that is a Roman, and uncondemned?" (Acts 22:25).
When this question got back to Lysius, the chief captain who had ordered the scourging, he suddenly became friendly with Paul, explaining that it had cost him a great deal to obtain Roman citizenship.
"And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. AND PAUL SAID: BUT I WAS FREE BORN" (Acts 22:28).
At this his would-be examiners suddenly departed. They did not wish to get into trouble with the Roman government for their mistake. "The chief captain also was afraid . . . because he had bound him" (Verse 29).
Paul was a native of Tarsus, "no mean city" in the eyes of Rome (Acts 21:39). In fact, so high was his rank as a Roman, that he had the right to appeal personally to Caesar for trial. This was confirmed by Festus and the Roman council at Caesarea after conferring on the matter (Acts 25:10-12).
Why does the Holy Spirit thus stress the apostle's Roman, as well as his Hebrew, citizenship? Simply because he, a reconciled Hebrew and Roman in one person, represents the body of Christ, the Church of this dispensation, which is composed of Jews and Gentiles reconciled to God in one body, by the cross (Eph. 2:16).
4. Paul was sent out to proclaim "the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24, Eph. 3:1-3). While he confirmed the fact that Jesus was Israel's Messiah, he never proclaimed the kingdom at hand or offered it for Israel's acceptance. Nor had the twelve until then ever proclaimed the gospel of the grace of God.
5. While at first Paul had "the signs of an apostle," his power to work miracles was withdrawn in connection with his God-given message (Rom. 8:22,23, I Cor. 13:8-13, II Cor. 4:16, 5:1-4, 12:7-10, Phil. 2:26,27, I Tim. 5:23, II Tim. 4:20).
6. Paul's message was not based upon covenant promises or prophecies but entirely upon the grace of God (Rom. 3:21-28, Eph. 1:7, 2:7). It was a mystery, kept secret until that time (Rom. 16:25, Eph. 3:1-3) and gradually revealed to and through him (Acts 26:16, 22:17,18, II Cor. 12:1-7).
7. In his message the Jew and the Gentile stood on the same footing before God (Rom. 3:22,23, 10:12,13).
8. Paul's chief ministry was among the Gentiles (Rom. 11:13, Eph. 3:1,2). When he would have ministered at Jerusalem the Lord forbade him to stay, saying: "Depart; for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles" (Acts 22:21).
9. With the raising up of Paul Israel was concluded in unbelief. The Lord Himself said to Paul: "THEY WILL NOT RECEIVE THY TESTIMONY CONCERNING ME" (Acts 22:18).
Hence Paul's message, unlike that of the twelve, was based upon Israel's rejection of Christ, and explained His continued absence (Eph. 1:18-2:6, Phil 2:9, Col. 3:1-3, Heb. 2:8,9).
10. Neither water baptism nor miraculous signs were included in Paul's special commission, nor did either have anything to do with salvation under his ministry. It is true that Paul at fIrst did baptize some; that he circumcised at least one; that he had "the signs of an apostle," but this was the economy under which he was saved and from which he gradually emerged. Moreover, he states clearly that he did not preach circumcision (Gal. 5:11), was not sent to baptize (I Cor. 1:17) and that the miraculous powers he himself possessed would pass away (I Cor. 13:8-10).
PAUL NOT ONE OF THE TWELVE
Occasionally the disciples are charged with acting in the flesh in choosing Matthias to fill Judas' place as the twelfth apostle. It is said that the disciples had no business choosing a twelfth apostle in the first place. It is further argued that they first arbitrarily chose two candidates and then asked the Lord which of these two He would have to fill the vacant position. Those who make this charge generally argue that Paul, not Matthias, was God's choice for Judas' place.
This charge, however, is not based upon a careful reading of the account in Acts, nor a very thorough knowledge of the Scriptures bearing on the subject. Let us examine the record:
1. The apostles, with Peter as their chief, had been given authority to act officially in Christ's absence (Matt. 16:19, 18:18,19).
2. It was stated in the Psalms that another should be appointed to Judas' place (Psa. 109:8, Acts 1:20).
3. The twelfth apostle had to be chosen before the kingdom could be offered at Pentecost (Matt. 19:28). Note how Peter stands up with the eleven in Acts 2:14.
4. Their action was literally bathed in prayer. They did not proceed until after many days of united prayer (Luke 24:49, cf. Acts 1:12-15), and when two candidates were found they again prayed and left the final choice to God (Acts 1:24-26).
5. It is probable that no more than two (Matthias and Joseph Barsabas) were eligible for the office, for only those could qualify who had followed with Christ all during His earthly ministry, "beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that He was taken up . . ." (Acts 1:21,22, cf. Matt. 19:28, Note: "Ye which have followed Me"). Surely there could not have been many such.
6. For this reason Paul would not have been eligible. He did not even see Christ until after His ascension.
7. Paul was not even saved at that time. Indeed, after that he "persecuted the church of God and laid it waste" (Gal. 1:13).
8. The final and conclusive proof that the eleven acted in the will of God in this matter is found in the fact that the Scripture clearly states that Matthias "was numbered with the eleven apostles" (Acts 1:26) and that,
"THEY WERE ALL FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST" (Acts 2:4).
Most assuredly, if the disciples had been out of the will of God in so important a matter they would not have been filled with the Holy Spirit. Nor would Matthias have been filled with the Holy Spirit if he had not been divinely chosen for that particular position. A man out of the will of God is never filled with the Holy Spirit.
This, of course, indicates that Paul's apostleship was separate and distinct from that of the twelve. Paul cannot be considered as one with the twelve, for just as eleven apostles would have been too few for God's kingdom plans, so thirteen apostles would have been too many. There will be twelve thrones (besides Christ's) in the kingdom, not thirteen. Hence Paul belonged to another program and was sent forth to proclaim another message.
It is significant in this connection, that Paul also speaks of the twelve as a separate body of apostles when he says that the resurrected Christ was "seen . . . of the twelve" (I Cor. 15:5). This inspired reference to twelve apostles between the resurrection and ascension, is further proof that Matthias was, by God, considered one of the twelve from the beginning. Apparently he was with the apostles when the risen Christ appeared to them (Acts 1:21-23).
Indeed, Paul consistently speaks of his apostleship and that of the twelve as distinct from each other. In his letter to the Galatians he says:
"But I certify you, brethren, that THE GOSPEL WHICH WAS PREACHED OF ME IS NOT AFTER MAN.
"FOR I NEITHER RECEIVED IT OF MAN, NEITHER WAS I TAUGHT IT, BUT BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST" (Gal. 1:11,12).
"NEITHER WENT I UP [IMMEDIATELY] TO JERUSALEM TO THEM WHICH WERE APOSTLES BEFORE ME: BUT I WENT INTO ARABIA . . ." (Gal. 1:17).
"AND I WENT UP BY REVELATION, AND COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM THAT GOSPEL WHICH I PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES" (Gal. 2:2).
"AND WHEN JAMES, CEPHAS, AND JOHN, WHO SEEMED TO BE PILLARS, PERCEIVED THE GRACE THAT WAS GIVEN UNTO ME, THEY GAVE TO ME AND BARNABAS THE RIGHT HANDS OF FELLOWSHIP; THAT WE SHOULD GO UNTO THE HEATHEN, AND THEY UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION" (Gal. 2:9).
http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html#intr
Now go and teach falsly no more.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
You keep forgetting the rest don't you.
I don't get your point. The rest of the scripture goes onto something else.
"18When Jesus noticed how large the crowd was growing, he instructed his disciples to cross to the other side of the lake. 19Then one of the teachers of religious law said to him, 'Teacher, I will follow you no matter where you go!'"
quote:
Mark.16 [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Your trying to apply someone eles mail to what was commissioned to Paul for the gentiles.
Now you are going onto Mark 16, which I guess you are attempting to call 'the rest.' It has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. You are putting up a smoke screen to get away from the Truth in Matthew 8 WildB.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
You keep forgetting the rest don't you.
I don't get your point. The rest of the scripture goes onto something else.
"18When Jesus noticed how large the crowd was growing, he instructed his disciples to cross to the other side of the lake. 19Then one of the teachers of religious law said to him, 'Teacher, I will follow you no matter where you go!'"
quote:
Mark.16 [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Your trying to apply someone eles mail to what was commissioned to Paul for the gentiles.
Now you are going onto Mark 16, which I guess you are attempting to call 'the rest.' It has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. You are putting up a smoke screen to get away from the Truth in Matthew 8 WildB.
The only smoke here is from the fire you cannot sustain. Here let me turn up the heat and add a little air.
So when are you going to take up some serpents and drink something deadly? Because according to your teaching it shall not hurt.
And then one of your followers can have the choice of healing you while you suffer your last few breaths or just wait till you die and rasie you.
Please stop your sillynesss.
and I strongly sugjest you and your followers study this.
http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html#intr
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
So when are you going to take up some serpents and drink something deadly? Because according to your teaching it shall not hurt.
And then one of your followers can have the choice of healing you while you suffer your last few breaths or just wait till you die and rasie you.
Nice try WildB. Mark 16:18 isn't talking about deliberately picking up serpents and drinking poison, but it means we will be protected from being harmed by such likeness if we accidently come in contact with them.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
WildB
What you posted regarding Paul preaching a different "program" than of the 12 apostles is totally off the wall.
Even Paul preached that the Gentiles were grafted in.
Paul claimed that there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free as all are the same in Christ Jesus.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
So when are you going to take up some serpents and drink something deadly? Because according to your teaching it shall not hurt.
And then one of your followers can have the choice of healing you while you suffer your last few breaths or just wait till you die and rasie you.
Nice try WildB. Mark 16:18 isn't talking about deliberately picking up serpents and drinking poison, but it means we will be protected from being harmed by such likeness if we accidently come in contact with them.
So in the same manner , because of no fault of ones own, they should become sick or full of cancer then they should be afforded that same warm fuzzy electric blanket?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
WildB
What you posted regarding Paul preaching a different "program" than of the 12 apostles is totally off the wall.
Even Paul preached that the Gentiles were grafted in.
Paul claimed that there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free as all are the same in Christ Jesus.
And as normal for you . You leave out the meat of the chapter.
Hint . Why were the Gentiles grafted in?
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Study more befor posting~ Please
“Who are Israelites—and the covenants—and the promises?” Romans 9:4. God hath not cast away His people, said Paul, “I also am an Israelite”. Romans 11:1 and 2. “At this present time (year 60 A.D.) also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Romans 11:5. “Some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, were graffed in among them”. Romans 11:17. “Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people”. “If thou were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were graffed contrary to nature, into a good olive tree”. Romans 11:24. If the “Olive Tree” is Israel, there is a sense in which the—Church of God, during the “Acts” Dispensation, was Israel. Even the believing Gentiles, who, during that period were identified with Israel in fulfillment of Israel’s prophecies, were the children of Abraham. Galatians 3:7. But as Abraham was declared righteous in uncircumcision, Gentile believers were not to be circumcised. Romans 4:5 to 15. Gentile believers, during the period from Pentecost to Acts 28:28, were Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29. The promise belonged to Israel. The Gentiles rejoiced with His people. Therefore, signs and water baptism were in order. Acts 15:12—Romans 15:18 and 19—Galatians 3:5. The Gentile believers shared with believing Jews in the Church of God the several gifts of the Spirit, which gifts were to be done away when that which was in part passed away. I Corinthians 12:8 to 10 and 13:8 to 13.
They were united in a body, under the New Covenant ministry. I Corinthians 12:13—II Corinthians 3:1 to 12. That covenant was for Israel. Jeremiah 31:31 to 35—Hebrews 8:8 to 11. Are our Premillennial Fundamentalist brethren, who try to keep the Body of Christ in the “Acts” Dispensation, positive they can answer our Covenant brethren who say that the New Testament Church is Israel? The so-called “Ultradispensationalists”, who place the Body where the Scriptures place it, can answer them.
When Paul made that declaration to close the ` Acts” Dispensation, in Acts 28:25, 27, he added in Acts 28:28, “The salvation of God is sent unto Gentiles”. Compare this with Matthew 10:5; Acts 11:18; Acts 14:27; Acts 15:14 to 17; Acts 13:46; Acts 18:6; Romans 11:11 and 30.
The salvation of God was sent to Cornelius the Gentile, in 41 A. D. Paul preached to Gentiles in 45 A. D. Acts 14:1. Therefore, when in, in 62 A. D. Paul declared, “the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles”, salvation had been sent to them for more than twenty years. The meaning of Acts 28:28, in the light of Paul’s Epistles written after that declaration, was that salvation would be sent to the nations, under different circumstances, with a revised message and additional revelation; that Gentile believers would thereafter be identified with Christ, independent of “His people” (Israel), or their covenants, or religion, or promises.
One Scripture for an example, in II Timothy 1:11 we find these words of Paul, “Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles Note the connection, “whereunto”. “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began”. II Timothy 1:9. No blessing here because of Israel’s Abrahamic, Davidic or New Covenants, as in the “Acts” Dispensation; but God’s grace and purpose before the foundation of the world, not to identify believing Gentiles with Israel in their Kingdom hopes and promises, but with Christ. “Making of twain the New Man”. Ephesians 2:15.
Let us study this wonderful verse with Ephesians 2:13 and Colossians 1:26, emphasizing the word “now” in the two verses.
“BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS YE WHO SOMETIMES WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NIGH BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.”
“EVEN THE MYSTERY WHICH HATH BEEN HID FROM AGES AND FROM GENERATIONS, BUT NOW IS MADE MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS.”
Christ on earth said, “Before Abraham was I AM”, and before Abraham was Christ was foreordained to be God’s spotless Lamb. I Peter 1:18 and 19.
The sacrifice of Christ and the pure grace salvation of believing Gentiles, identified with the risen Christ in the upper heavenlies, was purposed by God before He made any promises to Abraham or Israel, before He ever created that Nation for His glory among nations, which they are yet to be; yea, given us in Christ before the foundation of the world. We were chosen in Him in the eternal ages and will be on exhibition to His grace and glory in the ages to come. Ephesians 1:4 and Galatians 2:7. The riches of Christ for Gentile believers, during the “Acts” period, were traceable through Israel’s Scriptures and history. The riches of Christ preached by Paul, after the close of the “Acts” Dispensation, were unsearchable or untraceable. We quote Ephesians 3:8 and 9, changing “Unsearchable” to “Untraceable” as it should read “Unto me, who am less than the least of His saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the untraceable riches of Christ; and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all thing by Jesus Christ”. The reason is given in Ephesians 3:5—3:8 and Colossians 1:26, which we quote:
“WHICH IN OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW REVEALED UNTO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS BY THE SPIRIT.”
“UNTO ME, WHO AM LESS THAN THE LEAST OF ALL SAINTS, IS THIS GRACE GIVEN, THAT I SHOULD PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES THE UNSEARCHABLE RICHES OF CHRIST.”
“EVEN THE MYSTERY WHICH HATH BEEN HID FROM AGES AND FROM GENERATIONS, BUT NOW IS MADE MANIFEST TO HIS SAINTS.”
In Paul’s Epistles after Acts 28:28, he used the word “mystery” twelve times. The Mystery came not from Israel’s Scriptures but by revelation.
“HOW THAT BY REVELATION HE MADE KNOWN UNTO ME THE MYSTERY.”—Ephesians 3:3.
Therefore, we call the Dispensation after Acts 28:28, the “Mystery” Dispensation. But this does not mean that the truth of Ephesians, Colossians and Timothy should still be a secret hid in God. No, God wants every one of us to make all men see. Ephesians 3:9. Let’s try our best. It is a difficult task because religious people prefer the “Acts” Dispensation Religious ceremonies and signs and gifts passed out with the revelation of the Mystery. Water baptism was no longer needed to identify Gentile believers with Christ. They had something infinitely better, a heavenly position in Christ, with heavenly blessings, identified with Christ by a spiritual baptism. Water baptism is one of the principal obstacles keeping God’s saints from receiving this truth. Some of them would like to receive it, if they could hold on to water baptism. But that is impossible.
So up to the close of the “Acts” Dispensation it was “rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people.”
How different when we come to the Now of Ephesians 2:13 and the order of Gentiles first and Israel second in Ephesians 2:17. Again referring to the verse: “Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people”, let us read the several other verses connected with this verse
ROMANS 15:8 TO 12:
“NOW I SAY THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS A MINISTER OF THE CIRCUMCISION FOR THE TRUTH OF GOD, TO CONFIRM THE PROMISES MADE UNTO THE FATHERS:
“AND THAT THE GENTILES MIGHT GLORIFY GOD FOR HIS MERCY; AS IT IS WRITTEN, FOR THIS CAUSE I WILL CONFESS TO THEE AMONG THE GENTILES, AND SING UNTO THY NAME.
“AND AGAIN HE SAITH, REJOICE YE GENTILES, WITH HIS PEOPLE.
“AND AGAIN, PRAISE THE LORD, ALL YE GENTILES; AND LAUD HIM, ALL YE PEOPLE.
“AND AGAIN, ESAIAS SAITH, THERE SHALL BE A ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE THAT SHALL RISE TO REIGN OVER THE GENTILES; IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES TRUST.”
Notwithstanding the fact that the Apostle to the Gentiles received the Gospel for the nations by revelation (Galatians 1:11 and 12), from these verses in Romans 15:8 to 12, we are taught that Paul’s ministry and message to the Gentiles had been the fulfillment of certain of Israel’s Scriptures, prophecies written in the Old Covenant Dispensation, centuries before Christ came from heaven to earth. Those prophecies were not concerning the Body of Christ in the Dispensation of Grace. They were concerning Gentile salvation in connection with Israel’s Kingdom; “the root of Jesse that was to reign over Gentiles”. Those prophets were wholly ignorant of the Body of Christ and the Dispensation of Grace which the risen Christ committed to Paul, His prisoner for the Gentiles. Ephesians 3:1 and 5. “To me”. Ephesians 3:3.
In light of the foregoing we must agree with men of God like John Darby, Dr. James M. Gray, Dr. Wm. L. Pettingill, Dr. A. C. Gaebelein and many other able teachers that the so-called Great Commission is intended for Israel and their kingdom program rather than for the Body of Christ during this dispensation.
Surely in the light of Galatians 1:11 and 12 and Galatians 2:1 to 9 and Ephesians 3:1 to 9, we can see that the Apostle Paul received from Christ, and then passed on to Timothy, a commission which superseded the commission of Matthew 28:19 to 20-Read II Timothy 2:2.
May we leave with you this suggestion that you read carefully Matthew 10:5, Matthew 19:28, Acts 10:28 with Galatians 2:7 to 9 and then it will be easy to understand why the Apostles remained at Jerusalem and addressed all their messages to Israel except Peter’s one message to the household of Cornelius. But when Paul went to Jerusalem the Lord appeared to him and told him to get out of that city and go far hence to the Gentiles—Acts 22:17 to 22.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
Beseeching that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Paul's apostlship was two fold. One was to his kinsmen in the flesh, by way of the un naturally graphed in gentiles who were of the seed of Abraham, in Isaac should the seed be called, and also after the hope of Israel is put into abayance, the full ministry to the nations.
The 12 were to preach that what they had seen. Paul could not this do. Paul had not seen. Paul taught that which was revealed unto him, and two parts to this, one the 3 years in the wilderness, one revealed after that, called the mystery, or secret which was hid in God, and not revealed in the Acts period when the gentiles, for only 18 years, were made partakers of Israel's spiritual things. At that time no gentile had any hope of their own. Their hope and calling was through Israel. It is not so today.
The persons and times dictate what and whose infirmities He took onto Himself. This too, being but a shadow of things to come.
Col 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19
And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
From HG - Nice try WildB. Mark 16:18 isn't talking about deliberately picking up serpents and drinking poison, but it means we will be protected from being harmed by such likeness if we accidently come in contact with them.
quote:
From WildBSo - in the same manner , because of no fault of ones own, they should become sick or full of cancer then they should be afforded that same warm fuzzy electric blanket?
Why do you keep arguing with the Bible WildB
Acts 2:3-6 As Paul gathered an armful of sticks and was laying them on the fire, a poisonous snake, driven out by the heat, fastened itself onto his hand.
The people of the island saw it hanging there and said to each other, "A murderer, no doubt! Though he escaped the sea, justice will not permit him to live." But Paul shook off the snake into the fire and was unharmed.
The people waited for him to swell up or suddenly drop dead. But when they had waited a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and decided he was a god.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
From HG - Nice try WildB. Mark 16:18 isn't talking about deliberately picking up serpents and drinking poison, but it means we will be protected from being harmed by such likeness if we accidently come in contact with them.
quote:
From WildBSo - in the same manner , because of no fault of ones own, they should become sick or full of cancer then they should be afforded that same warm fuzzy electric blanket?
Why do you keep arguing with the Bible WildB
Acts 2:3-6 As Paul gathered an armful of sticks and was laying them on the fire, a poisonous snake, driven out by the heat, fastened itself onto his hand.
The people of the island saw it hanging there and said to each other, "A murderer, no doubt! Though he escaped the sea, justice will not permit him to live." But Paul shook off the snake into the fire and was unharmed.
The people waited for him to swell up or suddenly drop dead. But when they had waited a long time and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds and decided he was a god.
These pertections were afforded to Paul by God.
Again I say you have no knowledge of the poorer people.
I do not sugjest you to put your hand into a vipor hide out.
Unless you have some of your silly people that can lift from the dead.
My. Pat Boone thought he could use the text first and bring to life that actor AIDs guy later.
What was his name? I forget.
![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Again I say you have no knowledge of the poorer people.
Unless you have some of your silly people that can lift from the dead.
I thought this thread was about Jesus and not about 'the silly people' in my life and my alleged lack of knowledge.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
It is God's considerable estimation that we all fall short, that we all have a lack of understanding,
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
but I do have a Biblical question:
quote:
When sin entered this world Adam broke man's covenant from God, and thus became separated from God through this sin. However, we were left with faith to make that connection with God.
What covenant did God have with Adam?
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
quote:
When sin entered this world Adam broke man's covenant from God, and thus became separated from God through this sin. However, we were left with faith to make that connection with God.
What covenant did God have with Adam?
God's Covenant to Adam - Gen. 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make people. in our image, to be like ourselves. They will be masters over all life - the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky and all the livestock, wild animals, and small animals."
(Then Adam allowed sin to enter the world and separated mankind from God, the covenant thus being severed.)
Gen. 3:22-24 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Hosea 6:7 But like Adam, you broke my covenant and rebelled against me.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
If I may point out, that the word man and the word adam is the exact same word in the Bible.
In grammar, there is a word used to depict a certain, or specific, noun. This word is called, grammatically, an 'article'. To show us what that article is, and when a specific noun is pointed out among many generalities, we use this article. Is is our English word 'the'.
"The" denotes in grammar, the article, the man adam would be a fine example.
Our first referrence for a specific man is found in Gen 2:7, And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
formed3335 (853) man120
853 denotes the article.
In Gen1, there is no article, and in grammar this means mankind. God created mankind:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
In Hebrew, we always begin with two letters. They had no vowels. We add letters to the front and to the rear of the two letters we begin with:
Let us make man (no article) after our likeness...
likeness = demûth
the root is dm
man = 'âdâm
the root is dm
now we no what the relationship is, and it is to make mankind after 'our' likeness.
Note that mankind was created. All the host of them. It isn't until after day 7 that God forms the man adam from the dust of the ground in 2. 7:
Gen 2:1
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
It isn't until after day 7 that God forms the man adam from the dust of the ground in 2. 7:
The man adam was formed, not created, out the dust of the ground.
Look at the word 'ground':
'ădâmâh
we have the same 'dm' root
Now I must say, that in every instance where God tells us He makes a covenant, we aren't left to guess at what that covenant is, or wheather it is conditional or non conditional. God tells us plainly of His purpose. The purpose we are given in Gen1. 27 is to make mankind in order to, v28, replenish the earth. This is the first instance of the pleroma we are given. This is the goal of God, the pleroma. This comes hard following the judgment and subsequent destruction of v2. This is approached by Christ Jesus at the first occurrance of the word pleroma in the NT, as He explains the plan, why He is working things out the way He is.
Personally, I cannot insert an idea of covenant where we have no instruction to do so. I have noted in my own growing in closeness to the Lord, that there are many things I thought were so, but weren't. They were, however, tools used for me to overcome, to be tested and tried to see if I would search and be found usable by the love for the truth, whatever that may be. Whatever that may be, I know that it can only be found by simply beliving that God is giving His understanding. My understanding is of no value, therefore, I do not add to the word of God anymore. I have to unlearn things, and simply take the words for what they state. I know, that even if I do not yet understand, that I shant go wrong if I add not to His words.
Pro 30:6
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee...
Deu 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it
Below, the subject is of the tribes:
Hos 6:4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
Hos 6:5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hos 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
And the subject continues to zero in towards the facts,that this is about God and His covenant people, Israel:
Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom (against God) thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy (God's) companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
This is merely saying that they, like men do, they brake the covenant, that is what men do. They brake God's covenant. It is the nature of men to do this. This is why God put Abraham into sleep, giving an unconditional covenant, one that Abraham did not agree to, just the solomn promise of a just and merciful God full of grace who is verily love itself.
To my knowledge, the specific man adam was given no covenant, as the first instance of the word comes with a universal covenant of setting a rainbow in the sky for a rememberance that God would not flood the earth by water again.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
from epour--If I may point out, that the word man and the word adam is the exact same word in the Bible.
In grammar, there is a word used to depict a certain, or specific, noun. This word is called, grammatically, an 'article'. To show us what that article is, and when a specific noun is pointed out among many generalities, we use this article. Is is our English word 'the'.
"The" denotes in grammar, the article, the man adam would be a fine example.
To my knowledge, the specific man adam was given no covenant, as the first instance of the word comes with a universal covenant of setting a rainbow in the sky for a rememberance that God would not flood the earth by water again.
During the first five chapters of Genesis constant references are made to 'the' man. I agree that man can be referring to all of mankind, but when Adam's name is given it is referring specifically to 'the man' Adam.
Hosea 6:7 But like Adam, you broke my covenant and rebelled against me
This isn't referring to Pete or Joe or Fred. It is referring to our friend from the first part of Genesis, ADAM. If it were referring to mankind it would say 'man or 'mankind.'
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
The name Adam is not given in the AV, but it is in alternitive versions. That they have made changes and alterations does not mean the original work is made void.
If the first covenant isn't until chapter 8, then the first covenant isnt' until chapter 8. Perhaps God did make a covenant with Adam, but with no express intent on any such matters in the word of God, I cannot personally attribute one to him. In every case, each covenant is given specific direction, the circumstances and the need, prophecy towards it's end and goal, so I can't really say I have read about any covenant with Adam.
Adam brought sin to mankind, but sin was clearly already at work in the world.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Satan is called the serpent when in his beguilling operational mode. Satan was the fallen angel called the serpent. Sin was the standard to which Adam was tested thereby.
Adam's instruction is simple, he was not to take upon himself more knowledge than God had at that time so given.
2Sa 14:17
Then thine handmaid said, The word of my lord the king shall now be comfortable: for as an angel of God, so is my lord the king to discern good and bad: therefore the LORD thy God will be with thee.
Angels know good and evil, but it was not time for the man adam to know. Falling in sin is not the same as covenant breaking, but that is just the what my research has shown thusfar.
AV
Hos 6:7
But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Concordant Greek Text Sublinear -ultraliteral
Hos 6:7
Yet they, as a human, trespass against the covenant; there they are treacherous against Me.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
OK, I have just done a quick study on this, as more is good, and many times I am operating from my head, it looks like this:
It can be translated Adam, but here is why; I am going to have to paraphrase in order to get this into English:
But [they], like Adam, rebelled, [they] breaking the covenant
This referrences:
Jos 24:1
And Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel, and for their heads, and for their judges, and for their officers; and they presented themselves before God.
Jos 24:25
So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
So, they rebelled like Adam, they broke the covenant. This does'nt mean Adam was in covenant relation with God. The language doesn't bear it out.
I really had to search in the Hebrew on this one, as many texts, I noted, do say Adam, as in the man, but it is like Adam rebelled, not like Adam broke Adam's covenant.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
A covenant means a promise.
Dictionary definition of Covenant -
noun: (Bible) an agreement between God and his people in which God makes certain promises and requires certain behavior from them in return.
This describes perfectly the situation in the Garden of Eden. That covenant was broken when Adam disobeyed and allowed sin to enter 'mankind.'
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
And as normal for you . You leave out the meat of the chapter.
Hint . Why were the Gentiles grafted in?
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Study more befor posting~ Please
“Who are Israelites—and the covenants—and the promises?” Romans 9:4. God hath not cast away His people, said Paul, “I also am an Israelite”. Romans 11:1 and 2. “At this present time (year 60 A.D.) also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Romans 11:5. “Some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, were graffed in among them”. Romans 11:17. “Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people”. “If thou were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were graffed contrary to nature, into a good olive tree”. Romans 11:24. If the “Olive Tree” is Israel, there is a sense in which the—Church of God, during the “Acts” Dispensation, was Israel. Even the believing Gentiles, who, during that period were identified with Israel in fulfillment of Israel’s prophecies, were the children of Abraham. Galatians 3:7. But as Abraham was declared righteous in uncircumcision, Gentile believers were not to be circumcised. Romans 4:5 to 15. Gentile believers, during the period from Pentecost to Acts 28:28, were Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29. The promise belonged to Israel. The Gentiles rejoiced with His people. Therefore, signs and water baptism were in order. Acts 15:12—Romans 15:18 and 19—Galatians 3:5. The Gentile believers shared with believing Jews in the Church of God the several gifts of the Spirit, which gifts were to be done away when that which was in part passed away. I Corinthians 12:8 to 10 and 13:8 to 13.
Where's the Beef? What meat? You have a very convoluted doctrine of Dispensations and you don't even know what the Mystery hidden from the Ages IS.
If you read down a couple of verses in Acts 28:30-31 "and Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house....Preaching the Kingdom of God and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ..."
Paul preached the Kingdom to the Gentiles also.
The Mystery hidden from the ages: Christ in you, the Hope of Glory.
The Old Testament prophets didn't understand that.
Emmanuel means God with us. Isaiah didn't understand.
You are making up a doctrine that doesn't exist, IMO.
This subject encompasses a lot of things, but the basics are that the Gentiles are grafted in.
We are heirs of the same promises as the Jews.
Yes the Church and the People of Israel will have different roles to play in the future.
The Jews didn't acknowledge their Messiah, even though He healed them and forgave their sins as per the prophecies in the Old Testament.
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
quote:
Acts 28:30-31 "and Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house....Preaching the Kingdom of God and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ..."
I don't have time to dig it out right now, but if memory serves, this hired house is the prison ministry, where the Jews are blinded, leaving him to preach chained to the wrist of a Roman soldier. I could be wrong, maybe one of you have dug it up, but I seem to recall that this doesn't imply Paul was still a freeman.
I do have time to say this much:
During Paul's early ministry, the Jew had consistently opposed the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles, and this, said the Apostle, was their climax sin.
They "killed the Lord Jesus" but forgiveness was given and a new opportunity to believe and repent was granted. They had earlier "killed their own prophets" and had more recently "persecuted" the Apostle and his helpers "forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved", reaching however a climax "To FILL Up their sins always for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost" (1 Thess. 2:15,16).
"To the bitter end," reads Moffatt. "In its severest form," reads Weymouth. This same word "forbidding" found in 1 Thessalonians 2:16 is the word used by Paul, "No man forbidding him"-Israel, the opposer, had gone. They had filled up their measure of sin to the brim, and the very Gentiles that they had "forbidden" now entered into blessings hitherto unrevealed.
Since the call of Abraham, the Scriptures contain no record of a Gentile being saved independently of Israel. "Salvation is of the Jews" was the testimony of the Lord Himself to the woman of Samaria.
**Israel have always had, and will yet have, the chief place in the dispensational dealings of God, and the prophetic parts of the Old Testament are entirely connected wish their national existence.
**The great dividing line must be looked for where Israel as a nation ceases, not at Matt. 1. nor Acts 2.
**That dividing line is clearly drawn at Acts 28.
**I, as a saved Gentile, have nothing to do with the Mosaic law, as such ; to this most Christians will agree. Neither may I step over the boundary line drawn by the Holy Ghost in Acts 28 without causing hopeless confusion, and failure to appreciate the particular blessings and responsibilities that are mine in this dispensation ; to this very few will agree.
1 Timothy and Titus were written in the interval of freedom that intervened between the two years at Rome (Acts 28:30), when Paul was treated as a military prisoner and allowed some measure of liberty, and the subsequent imprisonment when he was treated as an ‘evil doer’, and from which there was no hope entertained of release, except by death.
The epistles written before the Roman imprisonment are 1 and 2 Thess., 1 and 2 Con, Gal. and Romans.
It is easy to assemble the evidence that his prison epistles were indeed written under the Roman yoke, for each of the 5 bear the marks of prison.
We have evident instructive contrast between the two inspired statements of Acts 28: 23 and 31:
TO THE JEWS- " To whom be expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses and the prophets."
TO THE GENTILES AND ALL WHO CAME TO HIM. " Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ."
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
yes, that reminds me, brother epouraniois, why don't you tell me a bit more of this dividing line in Acts 28?
thank you. have a nice Thanksgiving, giving lots of thanks to the great Lord {kurios} who has died for us.
BTW, do you agree that "kurios" means "absolute owner"?
And if so, do you have any idea why Judah/Benjamin/Levi would call Yahshua-Jesus in His First Advent by the word "kurios" if "absolute owner"?
thank you, from BORN AGAIN
"epouraniois, do you like this CBBS"?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
And as normal for you . You leave out the meat of the chapter.
Hint . Why were the Gentiles grafted in?
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Study more befor posting~ Please
“Who are Israelites—and the covenants—and the promises?” Romans 9:4. God hath not cast away His people, said Paul, “I also am an Israelite”. Romans 11:1 and 2. “At this present time (year 60 A.D.) also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Romans 11:5. “Some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, were graffed in among them”. Romans 11:17. “Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people”. “If thou were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were graffed contrary to nature, into a good olive tree”. Romans 11:24. If the “Olive Tree” is Israel, there is a sense in which the—Church of God, during the “Acts” Dispensation, was Israel. Even the believing Gentiles, who, during that period were identified with Israel in fulfillment of Israel’s prophecies, were the children of Abraham. Galatians 3:7. But as Abraham was declared righteous in uncircumcision, Gentile believers were not to be circumcised. Romans 4:5 to 15. Gentile believers, during the period from Pentecost to Acts 28:28, were Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29. The promise belonged to Israel. The Gentiles rejoiced with His people. Therefore, signs and water baptism were in order. Acts 15:12—Romans 15:18 and 19—Galatians 3:5. The Gentile believers shared with believing Jews in the Church of God the several gifts of the Spirit, which gifts were to be done away when that which was in part passed away. I Corinthians 12:8 to 10 and 13:8 to 13.
Where's the Beef?
funny. I guess you are fleash and blood people , he.
]Where's the Beef?
![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
Posted by epouraniois (Member # 5187) on
:
I do personally agree that Kurios bears within it the meaning of personal ownership as well as being the Jahovah of the OT, with the carry through of the outworking being that He had been makiing them ready to perceive His being raised up, every man born unto sin being the realized purchased possession in these, the vessels of mercy.
Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0