Christian Message Boards: Pope Implores Mary For Gift Of Peace

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Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :

23-March-2003 -- Vatican Information Service
http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=34689

VATICAN CITY, MAR 23, 2003 (VIS) - At the end of this morning's Eucharistic celebration in St. Peter's Square, during which he beatified five Servants of God, the Pope addressed the pilgrims who came from diverse countries for the beatifications, and then prayed the Angelus with them.

He greeted the pilgrim groups in French, German, Hungarian, and Spanish, concluding in Italian, with a plea for peace.

"We now turn to Mary Most Holy, whom the new Blesseds loved and venerated with special devotion. Let us implore her, above all at this time, for the gift of peace. To her we entrust in particular the victims of these hours of war and their family members who are suffering . I feel especially close to them in affection and prayer."

Speaking French, the Pope welcomed the pilgrims who came for the beatification of Fr. Pierre Bonhomme. Then, in remarks to the German and Hungarian faithful, the Holy Father spoke of the life of Blessed Laszlo Batthyany-Strattman, a layman and father of 13. "May the example of Blessed Laszlo, who daily prayed the Rosary with his family, strengthen you in the veneration of Our Lady."

The Holy Father in Spanish then addressed the cardinals, archbishops, and bishops present at today's celebration, and especially "the religious of the institutes founded by the New Blesseds Maria Dolores Rodriguez Sopena, Juana Maria Condesa Lluch and Maria Caridad Brader."

Posted by MAC (Member # 47) on :

Mat 6:9 Therefore pray in this way: Our Father, who is in Heaven, Hallowed be Your name. [Cross]

Mat 6:10 Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. [Cross]

Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread; [Cross]

Mat 6:12 and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors. [Cross]

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil. For Yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. [Cross]

Amen.

Posted by JefffreyLloyd (Member # 1151) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ERIEGREEN:
The woman is DEAD! I wish they'd leave her be!! She doesn't hear them...she isn't going to bring peace to anyone. Only One can do that and she ain't the One!!

That is so sad. Let me show you why you are wrong and why she does hear the Pope's (and my) prayers:

Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Posted by Catholicious (Member # 726) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JefffreyLloyd:

quote:
Originally posted by ERIEGREEN:
The woman is DEAD! I wish they'd leave her be!! She doesn't hear them...she isn't going to bring peace to anyone. Only One can do that and she ain't the One!!
That is so sad. Let me show you why you are wrong and why she does hear the Pope's (and my) prayers:

Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

Well said Jefffrey, I agree!

Catholicious [thumbsup]

Posted by art (Member # 6) on :

Jeffrey
Mary said "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour".Luke 1:47
Therefore Mary was a sinner who needed a saviour like the rest of us. The pope is a sinner as well and he also requires a saviour. If he receives Christ as his saviour, he will be saved. If he does not, he will go into hell forever and ever.
This putting Mary on a pedestal of worship and adulation is a lie of the devil. The Lord Jesus Christ , King of Kings, and Lord of Lords is the only One to be worshipped or exalted.
I am not against Roman catholics as people, I know many and some of them are very nice people but they are decieved and they need the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And that is the total depravity of all men (pope included) and that God out of love for us, sent His son to die on the cross and pay the penalty of our sin. Now whosoever trusts in Christs atoning death for us, will be saved; those who do not trust in Christ as their saviour, will spend an eternity in the lake of fire.
Thats what the bible teaches and we have no need to look to any religious organization to over-ride the scriptures.

Posted by Catholicious (Member # 726) on :

quote:
Originally posted by art:
Jeffrey
Mary said "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour".Luke 1:47
Therefore Mary was a sinner who needed a saviour like the rest of us.

art, you are quite wrong, Mary was sinless, not by her own power but by God she was spared the fall of original sin in a preventative way. Adam and Eve forshadow the new Adam and Eve which are Jesus and Mary. Adam was born of a clean earth, so much more would Jesus Christ have to be. Eve disobeys God bringing the fall of man, the new Eve Mary obediently obeys God bringing about the restoration of mankind ... "be it done onto me according to thy word." Mary is also the Ark of the New Covenant. The Ark housed the holy of holies, the Ten Commandments. Only those completely holy could touch the Ark, how much more holy and sinless would Mary have to be to give birth to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?
... "hail full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" Anytime someone's name is changed in scripture it indicates big things (Abram to Abraham, Simon to Peter, etc.) and the same can be said for Mary. Full of grace indicates her sinlessness. The Greek used here is only applied to her and Jesus, I believe Stephen is called the a similar title but the Greek is different and meant to express a much lesser degree. She was preserved of original sin at the time of her conception because she was to give birth to the Savior so she had to be clean of sin, thus she was preserved from sin in a preventative way. Yes Mary openly admits she needs a Savior ... "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour." She was saved beforehand.

Here is an anology that might help explain things: You are walking on the street and a manhole cover is open and you fall in, someone needs to come and save you. In the same way, had someone warned you and prevented you from falling in they still would have saved you. Hope this helps to better explain Mary to you.

The pope is a sinner as well and he also requires a saviour.

[b]This is no surprise, everyone is a sinner and needs a Savior. The Pope goes to Confession several times a week.

If he receives Christ as his saviour, he will be saved. If he does not, he will go into hell forever and ever.

[b]If you are talking about being born again I would have to disagree with you, that is not the traditional Christian understanding of salvation.

This putting Mary on a pedestal of worship and adulation is a lie of the devil.

She is not placed on a pedestal, how can she be viewed at the same level as Christ? She is a created temporal being and He is Divine. We respect Mary for her unique and one of a kind role in salvation history, no other woman has or ever will be chosen to give birth to God.

The Lord Jesus Christ , King of Kings, and Lord of Lords is the only One to be worshipped or exalted.

God views us all as his family, yes Jesus is the center and summit of our faith but He did not intend for us to ignore the family which provides good examples for us in running the good race.

I am not against Roman catholics as people, I know many and some of them are very nice people but they are decieved and they need the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have the Gospel every week in Church. Three readings per week and every three years the Bible is read to us in Church in its entirety minus some obscure passages like some of those in Leviticus. We are guaranteed to get the whole of the Bible, not just pet favorites or the apocalyptic ones in Daniel and Revelation. If it were not for the Catholic Church, you would not have the Gospel in which YOU STATE THAT WE NEED even though we are the ones that gave it to you along with the rest of the NT.

And that is the total depravity

sounds like you are a calvinist

of all men (pope included) and that God out of love for us, sent His son to die on the cross and pay the penalty of our sin. Now whosoever trusts in Christs atoning death for us, will be saved; those who do not trust in Christ as their saviour, will spend an eternity in the lake of fire.
Thats what the bible teaches and we have no need to look to any religious organization to over-ride the scriptures.

Posted by art (Member # 6) on :

You want to follow the lies of the rc church, thats up to you, but it is not biblical and is not welcome here.

And for the record, I am not a calvinist nor any other "ist", just a sinner saved by grace whose final authority are the scriptures and them alone.

Posted by MAC (Member # 47) on :

Isa_55:6; Phi_4:6; Psa_5:2; Mat_4:10; Luk_23:42; Act_7:59; Eph_2:18; Heb_10:19; Psa_5:3; Gen_12:8; Psa_116:4; Psa_27:7; Psa_34:6; Job_8:5; Jer_36:7;

Joh_14:13; Joh_14:14; Joh_15:16; Joh_16:23; Joh_16:24;

[Lighthouse]

Posted by JefffreyLloyd (Member # 1151) on :

quote:
Originally posted by art:
Mary said "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour".Luke 1:47

Mary did need a Saviour. She is not God, and no Catholic (who follows the teaching of the Church) believes that.

quote:
Originally posted by art:
Therefore Mary was a sinner who needed a savior like the rest of us.

Mary did not sin, but I will save that debate for another time. Jesus was still however her savior. Think of it this way, (i believe this is Bishop Sheen's anology):

You can be saved from a pool in two ways: One way is someone grabs you just before you fall in the pool.. Another is: Someone throws you a rope once you are in the pool and pulls you to safety.

Mary was saved the first way, "before she fell in." She was still saved, she was still NOT in ANYWAY divine and still a human.

quote:
Originally posted by art:
The pope is a sinner as well and he also requires a savior. If he receives Christ as his savior, he will be saved. If he does not, he will go into hell forever and ever.

Well, that is one blunt way of putting it, but you can rest assume that the Pope accepts Jesus as his savor (did I really have to say that). Anyway, as Catholicious correctly pointed out. The Pope goes to confession and he is a sinner. NO ONE has said otherwise.

quote:
Originally posted by art:
This putting Mary on a pedestal of worship and adulation is a lie of the devil. The Lord Jesus Christ , King of Kings, and Lord of Lords is the only One to be worshipped or exalted.

We do not in ANY way worship Mary. I don't know how many different ways we as Catholics can say this. I can guess a billion times a billion, and you still wouldn't listen. Mary is not divine. I agree with your statement. ONLY God is to be worshiped. He alone is worthy.

quote:
Originally posted by art:
I am not against Roman catholics as people, I know many and some of them are very nice people but they are decieved and they need the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I can say the same thing about our seperated brothers and sisters. They are great people and a lot of them have the Lord. Will they go to heaven? I don't know, that is God's call and His alone, and it's foolish of us to think we know.

I resent the notion that I am deceived. I am not deceived, nor all the other billion Catholics on the Earth. Or the millions and millions, and millions of Catholics who have died in the past 2000 years.

quote:
Originally posted by art:
And that is the total depravity of all men (pope included) and that God out of love for us, sent His son to die on the cross and pay the penalty of our sin. Now whosoever trusts in Christs atoning death for us, will be saved; those who do not trust in Christ as their saviour, will spend an eternity in the lake of fire.

I would say it this way:

Look at the Bible, Jesus tells us in black and white. Nicodemus tells Christ, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

Then Jesus says:

"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Now Nicodemus was confused he couldn't mean being born of the womb:

How can a man be born when he is old?" Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus explains:

"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

Water and spirt is the key? Yes it is, check out the book of Acts (2:38). St. Peter says, we need to:

Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

quote:
Originally posted by art:
Thats what the bible teaches and we have no need to look to any religious organization to over-ride the scriptures.

Would you have said that during the Council of Jerusalem? They had scripture then, but the New Testament wasn't written yet. The teachings of St. James and St. Peter came from a "religious organization" as you you put it. We now have them recored in the Bible. But it was thanks to a Church that those words found it's way in to the Bible we have today.

And Thanks be to God for that.

Posted by JefffreyLloyd (Member # 1151) on :

Art,

I respect you a lot. I'm not blowing wind when I say that. I see you're love for our Lord Jesus Christ in your posts.

But, what is your bottom line? When it comes down to it, what must someone do to be a Christian? When I was a Baptist, I believed that a person MUST believe the following things in order to call themselves a Born Agian Christian:

1) Believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

2) Live a Christian Life

Is that a fair statement to make?

Posted by Robby (Member # 448) on :

Firstly, Mary has already given us her gift of Peace--His name is Jesus Christ.

Now, by saying Mary is in her grave, I took it as meaning that she had not yet been resurrected from the dead. That believers since Pentecost who are not among the living would be raised from the dead at the first resurrection and that Mary would be part of that group. Yet to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so her spirit is with the Lord, but she doesn't have her glorified body yet.

As far as Rev 5:8, the "prayers of the saints", I would not assume it's anyone in heaven, but on earth. Prayers are represented as the smoke of incense going up to God in Heaven. I do not think it makes any sense to say prayers of Heaven are traveling up to Heaven? John Wesley says, "Not of the elders themselves, but of the other saints still upon earth, whose prayers were thus emblematically represented in heaven.".

Finally, I do not believe Mary was sinless, but I do rest in the belief that she was forgiven of her sins when her Son went to the cross. Consider Acts 1:14 where Mary joins the disciples and other women for "prayer and supplication". A supplication is a cry for mercy, to humble oneself before the Lord with your petitions. Acts 1:14--These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Posted by JefffreyLloyd (Member # 1151) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robby:
As far as Rev 5:8, the "prayers of the saints", I would not assume it's anyone in heaven, but on earth. Prayers are represented as the smoke of incense going up to God in Heaven. I do not think it makes any sense to say prayers of Heaven are traveling up to Heaven?[/i].

That is not what it says, look at the verse again:

Rev5:8 -And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Who are the 24 elders? They are Christians who are now in heaven.

What are they doing? They were offering to God " holding golden bowls full of incense."

What are the golden bowls full of incense." They are the prayers of the saints.

quote:
Originally posted by Robby:
Finally, I do not believe Mary was sinless, but I do rest in the belief that she was forgiven of her sins when her Son went to the cross. Consider Acts 1:14 where Mary joins the disciples and other women for "prayer and supplication". A supplication is a cry for mercy, to humble oneself before the Lord with your petitions. Acts 1:14--These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Well, I won't go into all the reasonm, but we as Catholics believe Mary is the new Eve, and the new Arc of the Covenant. Eve was born into the world without sin, so was the Virgin Mary we believe.

If you really are intrested in why Catholics believe the way we do about Mary, you should go to the library and check out a book by Scott Hahn called, "Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God, in the word of God."
Read some it online at amazon.com

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :

I don't need no middle man (or woman) to talk to God. I go rght to the throne of God by the blood of Jesus.

I feel sorry for all the deceived people that put a dead person between them and God, they are avoiding the "personal" relationship God offers.

Posted by JefffreyLloyd (Member # 1151) on :

I feel sorry for you, you are missing out on having a great relationship with the Mother of God.

But keep your comments in mind next time you ask someone to pray for you, or the next time you ask someone to pray for someone else.

After all you have no need to ask anyone else, because you can go righ to the "throne of God by the blood of Jesus" all by yourself.

Peace be with you brother,
Jeff

quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
I don't need no middle man (or woman) to talk to God. I go rght to the throne of God by the blood of Jesus.

I feel sorry for all the deceived people that put a dead person between them and God, they are avoiding the "personal" relationship God offers.

Posted by Catholicious (Member # 726) on :

I agree with you Jefffrey! Well said.

Catholicious

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :

The mother of God is dead, the Bible tells us to pray to the Father, and to stay away from the dead.

Posted by JefffreyLloyd (Member # 1151) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
The mother of God is dead, the Bible tells us to pray to the Father, and to stay away from the dead.

How do you explain Rev 5:8? Not to mention 2000 years of church teaching?

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

With their golden bowls full of incense, the elders symbolically present the prayers of the saints, but they are not interceding for the saints, functioning as mediators for God's people.

We are reminded that there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5); these elders are not praying for the saints, and this in no wise justifies the Roman Catholic practice of praying to the saints, asking for their petitions on our behalf.

It is possible that these prayers represent the long-standing prayer of God's people.

Posted by Robby (Member # 448) on :

Yes, the prayers represented as bowls of incense that the elders are holding are not prayers of their own doing, they are prayers of the saints (believers in Christ) living on earth.

Why a "second Eve"? Sin did not enter the world through one woman, but one man--Adam. And sin was taken away by one man--Jesus (1 Cor. 15:45, Rom. 5:12) Now if Mary was as you say, why then was she not nailed to the cross with her Son (John 19:25)? And what was she doing offering prayer and supplication (Acts 1:14)? She--along with the disciples and other women--cried out for mercy, and humbly listed petitions to God.

Posted by MAC (Member # 47) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

With their golden bowls full of incense, the elders symbolically present the prayers of the saints, but they are not interceding for the saints, functioning as mediators for God's people.

We are reminded that there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5); these elders are not praying for the saints, and this in no wise justifies the Roman Catholic practice of praying to the saints, asking for their petitions on our behalf.

It is possible that these prayers represent the long-standing prayer of God's people.

Kindgo references to that verse are in;

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Posted by JefffreyLloyd (Member # 1151) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robby:
Why a "second Eve"? Sin did not enter the world through one woman, but one man--Adam.

Check out that book: Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God, in the Word of God. By Scott Hahn

Posted by njclary (Member # 4) on :

golly, kids; I wish this non-winnable arguement would end.

Roman Catholic is Roman Catholic and Protestantism is Protestantism. It's like arguing Christianity with Mormonism.

God Bless

Joel

Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :

So I should read a book by a man to learn how mary is without sin, instead of the Bible? Man made mary without sin, not God.

[Bible]

Col 2:8 Take care that no one takes you away by force, through man's wisdom and deceit, going after the beliefs of men and the theories of the world, and not after Christ:
[Bible]

I should pray to mary because of what man and church tradition say, instead of what GOD says?
I DON'T THINK SO

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