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Author
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Topic: The keeping of the Law -vs- Grace
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Grace = salvation
Obedience = sanctification
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
becauseHElives, I feel confident that all of us agree with your statement:
quote:
no one but a fool would say ....
Yahweh doesn't care how many god's you worship...
You can bow down to all the idols you want Yahweh doesn't care...
You can take the Lords name in vain all you want, He doesn't care...
Curse the Sabbath Yahweh doesn't care....
Curse your father and your mother, Yahweh doesn't care...
Murder anyone you want no big deal, and Jesus didn't mean want He said either Hating people is no big deal...
Adultery's no big deal , don't you understand Grace, and Jesus didn't mean what He said on this either, I can lust all I want....
Stealing , I'm free to steal all I want I'm under Grace....
You are free to bear false witness against your neighbor....
Coveting other people stuff is OK too....
no a 100 times no....
But I can't agree with this part of your article because we can't obey scripture without the power of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
We do not learn the will of the Lord through some mystical witness of the Spirit; we learn it through the revealed words of Jesus Christ as recorded for us in the Bible. We do not have to wonder what is right and wrong; we can always be assured that we are doing what pleases God when we are doing what His word says.
Even if we say and do all the right things, our motivation would be wrong without the Holy Spirit in our hearts. He both illuminates scripture for us and empowers us to obey.
You also wrote:
quote:
Grace is the life giving force that flows from the heart of Yahweh to the heart of man to produce the kind of life Yahweh desires in mankind yielded to the Spirit of Christ.
God's grace is more than a "life giving force". Grace is more than the empowering of His Holy Spirit. The word "grace" has a special meaning that should not be confused with obedience.
His love or His mercy cannot operate in grace until there is provided a sufficient satisfaction for sin. This satisfaction makes possible the exercise of God’s grace. Grace thus rules out all human merit. It requires only faith in the Savior. Any intermixture of human merit violates grace. God’s grace thus provides not only salvation but safety and preservation for the one saved, despite his imperfections. Grace perfects forever the saved one in the sight of God because of the saved one’s position “in Christ.” Grace bestows Christ’s merit and Christ’s standing forever (Romans 5:1-2; 8:1; Colossians 2:9-10); “for in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete.” Grace thus obviates any obligation to gain merit, and the law as a merit system is no longer applicable to a believer, since he is no longer “under law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14). The problem of a holy life is met in the gospel of grace by the fact that the saved one has an entirely new position in grace instead of in Adam (Romans 5:12-20). And being baptized “into Christ” (Romans 6:1-11), he is “dead to sin, but alive to God.” Knowledge of and faith in this glorious in-Christ position (Romans 6:11) is the key that makes it actual in the believer’s everyday experience. Rewards for faithfulness and practical holiness of life are to be dispensed, but this is a truth not to be confused with an unforfeitable and unmerited salvation.
(Unger's)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
one thing is abundantly clear WildB, you do not have a clue to what " Saving Grace " is.
I have not twisted in Scripture, I have only added a few adjectives in the form of definition.
Well base ball fans there ya have it!
Adding owns OWN adjectives to scripture IS NOT to be considered TWISTING IT!
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
one thing is abundantly clear WildB, you do not have a clue to what " Saving Grace " is.
I have not twisted in Scripture, I have only added a few adjectives in the form of definition.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace the good will, loving-kindness, favor of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues did much more abound:
Grace must be understood or you have a religion not a relationship!
Without abiding in Yeshua no one has any chance...
Grace is the life giving force that flows from the heart of Yahweh to the heart of man to produce the kind of life Yahweh desires in mankind yielded to the Spirit of Christ.
You seam to be re-writing the text and twisting your legalistic gospel into the hodgepodge.
But it is clear to all your error.
What comes after verse 20 in my Bible reads..
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace the good will, loving-kindness, favor of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues did much more abound:
Grace must be understood or you have a religion not a relationship!
Without abiding in Yeshua no one has any chance...
Grace is the life giving force that flows from the heart of Yahweh to the heart of man to produce the kind of life Yahweh desires in mankind yielded to the Spirit of Christ.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
I know that once the Lord had know place in my life....
I know I had total disregard for anything to do with God....
I know that I cried out to God to reveal Himself to me and He did....
I know His presence change the vial creature I was in an instant of time. Where there had been no thought of any Law of righteousness , I found a consciousness of God's Holy Law overwhelming me....
I was awaken by God with no Preacher or alter call....
I was not taught by some denomination , I was instructed by the Spirit of God and scripture....
Anyone who tells me the Law is done away with I immediately know they have been instructed by a denomination or someone that does not know God or His Son Jesus...
The true believer is not under the Law to keep it, but neither is the true believer free to break the Law....
With Christ indwelling the believer , the believe loves to do that which Christ loves...
and Jesus does love the Law...
no one but a fool would say ....
Yahweh doesn't care how many god's you worship...
You can bow down to all the idols you want Yahweh doesn't care...
You can take the Lords name in vain all you want, He doesn't care...
Curse the Sabbath Yahweh doesn't care....
Curse your father and your mother, Yahweh doesn't care...
Murder anyone you want no big deal, and Jesus didn't mean want He said either Hating people is no big deal...
Adultery's no big deal , don't you understand Grace, and Jesus didn't mean what He said on this either, I can lust all I want....
Stealing , I'm free to steal all I want I'm under Grace....
You are free to bear false witness against your neighbor....
Coveting other people stuff is OK too....
no a 100 times no....
the true believer is saved by Grace and Grace is the power and influence of God's Spirit on the heart of mankind to do that which please God...
Without the proper understanding of Grace all anyone has is religion!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
Same song, 1000th verse.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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What do you know about obedience or disobedience to the will of God?
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
He Who Does The Will of My Father ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Years ago, Ezekiel lamented, "But as for you, son of man, your fellow citizens who talk about you by the walls and in the doorways of the houses, speak to one another, each to his brother, saying, 'Come now, and hear what the message is which comes forth from the Lord.' And they come to you as people come, and they sit before you as My people, but they do the lustful desires expressed by their mouth, and their heart goes after their gain. And behold, you are to them like a sensual song by one who has a beautiful voice and plays well on an instrument; for they hear your words, but they do not practice them" (33:30-32). How frequently I have felt just like Ezekiel!
I have witnessed men and women in the audience to whom I would preach a lesson come out and shake my hand, telling me what a fine lesson I had presented, but who never did anything to live what I had just taught them. People come to worship expecting to hear a polished speaker. When the speaker is finished, they frequently go their way for another week having no intention whatsoever to step forward in obedience to the gospel which has been preached. Perhaps, we need to be reminded of what Jesus said about obedience; he said,
"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will ®f My Father, who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name east out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I wilt declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, yon who practice lawlessness.' ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
"Therefore every one who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them, may be compared to a wise man, who built his house upon the rock; and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and yet it did not call; for it had been founded upon the rock. And every one who hears these words of Mine, and does not act upon them, will be like a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the hoods came, and the winds blew, and burst against that house; and it fell, and great was Its fall" (Mt. 7:21-27).
I would like to look at these verses rather carefully in this week's editorial.
Things Which Cannot Substitute For Obedience
If there is one lesson which is forcefully taught in this saying of Jesus, it is that nothing can substitute for obedience to His words. In this passage, there are several things specifically mentioned which show that they cannot substitute for obedience. Consider these things which cannot substitute for obedience:
1. Profession of faith. Everyone of the men under consideration in this verse called Jesus, "Lord, Lord." These men were not atheists or infidels; they were men who professed faith in Jesus Christ. Yet, that profession of faith was insufficient to save them from their sins and to grant them an entrance into that everlasting kingdom prepared by God. There are any number of people in this world today who make a profession of faith in Jesus, just as these people did, who shall not be saved simply because they have not obeyed the Lord; profession of faith will not substitute for obedience!
2. Zeal. Just as profession of faith will not substitute for obedience, neither will zeal substitute for it. The men under consideration in these verses were men who, apparently, were zealous in what they were doing. Look at all of the good works they did for the Lord; they prophesied in His name, cast out demons, and performed many miracles in His name. They were, indeed, zealous people. Frequently, however, zeal outruns faith; men begin to act without authority. When this happens, they become guilty of lawlessness, just as these had done. Zeal did not negate the fact that these men had simply not obeyed the commandments of the Lord.
3. Religion. The fact that men are religious does not substitute for obedience to the Lord Jesus. The men in these verses were quite religious; yet, they were condemned to hell despite the fact that they were religious. Men need to be reminded of the fact that Jesus did not come to make men religious; men were religious years before Jesus came to this earth. Jesus came to make men right religiously. The mere fact that a person is religious is insufficient to save him. As a matter of fact, if we studied the cases of conversion in the book of Acts, the large majority of those who were converted to the Lord were religious before they were converted. We simply must accept the fact that false religion is just as damning as no religion. Religion will not substitute for obedience!
The Will of the Father
The only thing which was sufficient to save a man was obedience to the will of the Father (v. 21). But, how does one know the will of the Father? There are some who would have us to believe that we find out the will of the Father through a better-felt-than-told experience; others tell us that one is doing the will of the Father when he is obeying his conscience. Some among us are saying that we can never be sure what the will of the Father really is (in such areas as instrumental music in worship, institutionalism, the sponsoring church, etc.). Jesus, however, did not leave us in doubt as to what the will of the Father is.
If you will notice what these verses say, you will see that Jesus associated the will of the Father with the words which He spoke. In v. 21, He said that the man who would be saved is the man "who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." Then, in v. 24, as He illustrated the truth which He was teaching, He said, "Therefore every one who hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them . . . ." The will of the Father, therefore, is revealed to us through the words of Jesus and those whom He commissioned to reveal it.
We do not learn the will of the Lord through some mystical witness of the Spirit; we learn it through the revealed words of Jesus Christ as recorded for us in the Bible. We do not have to wonder what is right and wrong; we can always be assured that we are doing what pleases God when we are doing what His word says.
Lessons From The Two Builders
After Jesus had made His statement about the necessity of obedience, He illustrated it by the example of two builders. From the age of a small child, I have known and sung the song of the two builders which was taken from this illustration. Yet, there are several powerful lessons in this illustration which we need to remember.
1. Each of us is building a building. Sometimes, I think, men hear these words and decide to be neither the wise nor the foolish builder. That will not work for the simple reason that all of us are building our buildings each day of our lives. The lives which we live are the buildings which are discussed in this passage. Our day to day lives determine whether we are a wise builder. or a foolish builder. We have no choice of whether we will be a builder or not; we can only choose to be a wise builder or a foolish builder.
2. Each person's building shall be tested. This illustration certainly teaches us that each person's building will be tested. The same rains, floods, and wind beat upon each house to test it. Sometimes we are tested in this life to see what kind of building we have been erecting. I have seen men who spent all of their lives accumulating their fortune and then want to exchange it all for an opportunity to rear their children again. They built their houses on sand. I have seen mothers who left their children with the babysitter in order to have some of the luxuries of this life, cry rivers of tears as they witnessed their children doing things which were sinful. The crises of this life sometime expose the fact that the life which we are living is resting on sinking sand.
Despite the fact that some of us are tested in this life, all of us will be tested on the day of judgment. Paul wrote, "For we must all appear before the judgment-seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad" (2 Cor. 5:10). These verses depict men standing before Jesus Christ to be judged. Hence, all of us shall be tested to see whether or not we have been obedient to our Lord Jesus Christ.
3. The difference in men will be their obedience or disobedience to the will of God. The wise man and the foolish man endured the same winds, rains and flood; one had built a house which endured the storm and the other had not. The difference was that one had built his house on the sand and the other had built on the rock. The sand on which so many are building today include such attitudes toward life as the accumulation of this world's goods and hedonism (satisfaction of the desires if the flesh). Those who build on the sand shall not endure. The rock, on the other hand, is obedience to the will of God. The man who obeys the will of God has built his life upon a solid rock, a rock which shall be firm support in the times of trial and testing.
Conclusion
This week, I saw television reports of flooding in Eastern Kentucky and in West Virginia. Among the things which were shown in the news cast was a house which was washed away by the fast-flowing waters of a high river. Is this what lies ahead for the house which you are building? When your building is tested by the Lord will it endure? It will only if you obey the Lord. There is no substitute for obedience!
Truth Magazine XXI: 33, pp. 515-517
August 25, 1977
Mike Willis
Xenia, Ohio
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=8275.6967.0.0
Wow thats one scary individual in a very expensive building.
Conditions and the keeping of the Law is salvation?
Not according to Gods Word properly divided.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Romans 10:
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.(PERIOD)
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all isrich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.(PERIOD)
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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