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Author
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Topic: The Voice Of The False Teacher
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botham
Advanced Member
Member # 7935
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posted
Sorry, should read "do experience a kind of tribulation--people Do Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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botham
Advanced Member
Member # 7935
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posted
Well said paul. This is more or less what I believe. The Church will not be here when God pours His wrath out. Sodom is the best analogy, as it shows both the mercy and wrath of sovereign God. But on the great day of the Lord, the Church will be with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Until then though, there is only too much evidence right under our noses that believers do not experience a kind of tribulation. People will be tortured and killed under the most horrible circumstances today, much of it not reaching the news. Children will die of starvation feeling betrayed and alone. God will receive them to Heaven for eternity. The great tribulation must be a separate event where God will purge every stain of sin from His creation. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
Blessings to you all brothers and sisters. My studies have indicated to me that Botham and Betty are both correct. As Betty points out the entire Trib period is
a) the Anti-Christ running amuck
b) the Lord pouring out His wrath on the
adversary and all who side with him
We know the Bible tells us (as was taught by the Apostles and their students for the first 200 years), that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. But this clearly refers to the wrath of God. You see no one doubts a rapture it is the when that is the debate. Betty whether you realize it or not you make it clear. There is no indication in what you pointed out that the saints (Spirit filled saved believers, i.e., "the Church")do not go through suffering at the hand of the Anti-Christ, only that we WILL be caught up and come with Him to pour out God's wrath on the Adversary and his malevolent host (perhaps my view...let the Spirit lead each of us - iron sharpening iron - and let us remain in the Unity of the Holy Spirit).
Now, just to add something to the discussion I would like you all to take a look at the teaching (the only teaching) which was taught by the Apostles to their immediate disciples and then they to their disciples (the church leaders for the first 200 to 300 years, i.e., pre-Nicea). Take a look and notice not one of the Bishops appointed and taught by the Apostles taught the next generation a "pre-trib" rapture. Always they teach the Church is persecuted by the Anti-Christ and then we are caught up and when He comes it is only one second coming and He comes all the way down and we with Him to be the instrument of wrath upon the unbelievers and enemies of God's people...take a look and then please comment. Trust me however this is not exhaustive...the Lord bless us all
Didache 16:3-8 1st century
"For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the
sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; and
because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each
other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world
appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall
be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have
never happened since the beginning of the world. Then shall the creation of
man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall
perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of
offence itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign
of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and
thirdly the resurrection of the dead - not of all, but as it has been said,
The Lord shall come and all his saints with him; then shall the world behold
the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven."
Justin Martyr 150 A.D. Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 10
"O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these
passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He
is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the
other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of
apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do
unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the
true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem
by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob
and God of Israel;"
Iranaeus 180 A.D. Against Heresies Bk5 Chpt26
"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's
disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings
who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall
be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by
Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which
thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall
receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and
give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the
Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and
the King of kings." It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he
who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and
that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon
waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and
put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of
our Lord."
Hippolytus 200+ A.D. Dogmatic and Historical Treatise on the Christ and the Anti-Christ chapter 60
"Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the
Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: "And I saw a great and
wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ...."
Cyprian 250 A.D.
"For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day
of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and
the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for
the battle; nor consider anything but the glory of life eternal, and the crown
of the confession of the Lord; and not regard those things which are coming as
being such as were those which have passed away. A severer and a fiercer fight
is now threatening, for which the soldiers of Christ ought to prepare
themselves with uncorrupted faith and robust courage, considering that they
drink the cup of Christ's blood daily, for the reason that they themselves
also may be able to shed their blood for Christ."
Cyril of Jerusalem 300 A.D.
"But since it was needful for us to know the signs of the end, and since we
are looking for Christ, therefore, that we may not die deceived and be led
astray by that false Antichrist, the Apostles, moved by the divine will,
address themselves by a providential arrangement to the True Teacher, and say,
Tell us, when shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of Thy coming,
and of the end of the world"…"...make safe thy soul. The Church now charges thee
before the Living God; she declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they
arrive. Whether they will happen in thy time we know not, or whether they will happen
after thee we know not; but it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest
make thyself secure beforehand."
Thanks...I am new to this baord and pray I have not offended anyone...I was a convinced pre-tribber (as are most) but when I really studied the word and ignored the imposed interpretation I could not find a "pre-trib" rapture in the Bible.
Pre-wrath yes (Our Father's wrath which Christ and the angels will mete out) but not pre-trib.
Amen
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
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posted
The Bible makes it clear that the tribulation will be worse then man has every seen before. Jesus says that if God did not shorten the days that even the tribulation saints would lose their way.
Yes the world is filled with evil today and innocents die, but the tribulation will not be just Satan running rampart but also God pouring out His wrath on the anti-Christ and unbelievers. God does not pour out his wrath on His Bride. She will be taken in the rapture.
Betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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botham
Advanced Member
Member # 7935
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posted
Thanks Stephen. Salvation is certainly a grace event. As to the Israel aspect I am unclear about your statement. I have had a few discussions on this forum about pre-tribulation and I still conclude that in Matthew Jesus seems to be saying that believers will be here during the tribulation. Please explain why it is so important to have a pretribulation rapture and how you would explain this to the many children who will die today. They will die after rape, abuses of all kinds and so forth. They are most innocent of course, God sees it, and it remains a mystery. What about the tribulation could be worse than what these innocents experience before they are murdered. So I do not think it a good argument that the Church should be spared persecution at the end times. I know that you will agree that we should be steadfast in our belief no matter what persecution comes our way. I hope that we are taken before this great tribuation but I do not think it affects my salvation one iota whether I believe it or not. I believe in the Cross, not religion. I appreciate your scholarship with respect to scripture, no doubt a gift from God, so please don't be offended. God bless, Botham
Posts: 103 | From: canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Stephen1
Community Member
Member # 7934
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posted
False teaching is rampant today and there are a few common deceptions that are attached by the false teacher in almost every professing christian denomination or related cult ..... there are many misleadings, but these listed seem to be clustered together and carried by most and the believer needs to be aware of them.
If you are teaching and or following those with these tell tale signs I would suggest that you investigate your sources.
False teachers existing within professing christianity draw, attract, and control with the following primary and significant misleading precepts. They then insert their cult like designs to deceive the unlearned and the unwary away from the truth:
1.Salvation by works
2.Removal and replacement of national ethnic Israel presented in scriptural prophecy
3.Refutation of the Lord's pre-tribulation "rapture"
4.Induced pseudo-sensual experiences in their worship services
5.Proprietary and exclusive membership for the followers
Once convinced, the followers can then be led astray with all sorts of fabricated falsehoods including those that can result in the loss of one's own salvation.
The false teacher must be able to impose legalisms for controlling the membership, remove national Israel from future prophetic fulfillment, eliminate the Lord's pre-tribulation immortalizing of the believer, attract with false manifestational experiences, and claim the exclusivity of the teacher's dogmas.
All of this is done in order to insert and sell the deceptions by those who come in the name of Jesus Christ to capture the unlearned and the unwary. Those who do this sort of thing are legion today and they have infested the professing church for the purpose of attracting attention, spreading deceptions, causing division, and promoting self gain.
At the same time they enhance satan's ambition to make a mockery of the truth. The Lord has said that many would come in His name with the intent to deceive. [Matthew 24:4-5; Mark 13:5-6; 2Peter 2,3; 2Timothy 3,4]
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Stephen
Posts: 10 | From: USA | Registered: Nov 2009
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