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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » Loving Jesus and still going to hell (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Loving Jesus and still going to hell
Southpaw
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What I find people do not realize is that they are in their own comfort zone.

As Followers of Christ we must do Gods will, God wants us to walk with him, God is inviting us to do his will.

Reading in the Scripture on how this works is in Exodus Chapter 2 - 4

God is Wanting to get to know moses more and build Moses's Trust in him.

This is a great example of building and being closer to God, and walking with him

Also in the Book of 2nd Peter We have all that we need. Quoting here

2 Peter 1

1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
Making One's Calling and Election Sure
3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


Be Loyal to our Heavenly Father and Seek his Face first. God will then invite you in to do his will.

Another Scripture is Psalm 67 that is coming to mind on this

Psalm 67
For the director of music. With stringed instruments. A psalm. A song.
1 May God be gracious to us and bless us
and make his face shine upon us,
Selah

2 that your ways may be known on earth,
your salvation among all nations.

3 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.

4 May the nations be glad and sing for joy,
for you rule the peoples justly
and guide the nations of the earth.
Selah

5 May the peoples praise you, O God;
may all the peoples praise you.

6 Then the land will yield its harvest,
and God, our God, will bless us.

7 God will bless us,
and all the ends of the earth will fear him.


may the lord Jesus Bless you and let's be more intimate and walk closer with God

God is our Master, We are his Servants. God works through his servants to accomplish what God needs to do.

Moses is a Prime example on how God works throgh you.


Another Scripture to meditate deeper on is 1 Kings Chapter 18 With Elijah on mount Carmel

1 Kings 18 (New International Version)

1 Kings 18
Elijah and Obadiah
1 After a long time, in the third year, the word of the LORD came to Elijah: "Go and present yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain on the land." 2 So Elijah went to present himself to Ahab.
Now the famine was severe in Samaria, 3 and Ahab had summoned Obadiah, who was in charge of his palace. (Obadiah was a devout believer in the LORD. 4 While Jezebel was killing off the LORD's prophets, Obadiah had taken a hundred prophets and hidden them in two caves, fifty in each, and had supplied them with food and water.) 5 Ahab had said to Obadiah, "Go through the land to all the springs and valleys. Maybe we can find some grass to keep the horses and mules alive so we will not have to kill any of our animals." 6 So they divided the land they were to cover, Ahab going in one direction and Obadiah in another.

7 As Obadiah was walking along, Elijah met him. Obadiah recognized him, bowed down to the ground, and said, "Is it really you, my lord Elijah?"

8 "Yes," he replied. "Go tell your master, 'Elijah is here.' "

9 "What have I done wrong," asked Obadiah, "that you are handing your servant over to Ahab to be put to death? 10 As surely as the LORD your God lives, there is not a nation or kingdom where my master has not sent someone to look for you. And whenever a nation or kingdom claimed you were not there, he made them swear they could not find you. 11 But now you tell me to go to my master and say, 'Elijah is here.' 12 I don't know where the Spirit of the LORD may carry you when I leave you. If I go and tell Ahab and he doesn't find you, he will kill me. Yet I your servant have worshiped the LORD since my youth. 13 Haven't you heard, my lord, what I did while Jezebel was killing the prophets of the LORD ? I hid a hundred of the LORD's prophets in two caves, fifty in each, and supplied them with food and water. 14 And now you tell me to go to my master and say, 'Elijah is here.' He will kill me!"

15 Elijah said, "As the LORD Almighty lives, whom I serve, I will surely present myself to Ahab today."
Elijah on Mount Carmel
16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and told him, and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 When he saw Elijah, he said to him, "Is that you, you troubler of Israel?"

18 "I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied. "But you and your father's family have. You have abandoned the LORD's commands and have followed the Baals. 19 Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."

20 So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. 21 Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him."
But the people said nothing.

22 Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God."
Then all the people said, "What you say is good."

25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

30 Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD, which was in ruins. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs [a] of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood."

34 "Do it again," he said, and they did it again.
"Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, O LORD, answer me, so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again."

38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!"

40 Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

41 And Elijah said to Ahab, "Go, eat and drink, for there is the sound of a heavy rain." 42 So Ahab went off to eat and drink, but Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, bent down to the ground and put his face between his knees.

43 "Go and look toward the sea," he told his servant. And he went up and looked.
"There is nothing there," he said.
Seven times Elijah said, "Go back."

44 The seventh time the servant reported, "A cloud as small as a man's hand is rising from the sea."
So Elijah said, "Go and tell Ahab, 'Hitch up your chariot and go down before the rain stops you.' "

45 Meanwhile, the sky grew black with clouds, the wind rose, a heavy rain came on and Ahab rode off to Jezreel. 46 The power of the LORD came upon Elijah and, tucking his cloak into his belt, he ran ahead of Ahab all the way to Jezreel.

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Copper25
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let me guess, bad translation?

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Keeper
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Speaking of the scriptures not contradicting one another. I agree but you will find that the interpretation of some do lead you to feel that they do contradict one another especially when you offer one or two scriptures and not the "rest of the story". I found that to be true twice just in the last week or two.

It's funny how it gets real quiet on the scene when you point that out. lol I prefer to read posts and not feel the need to point stuff like this out but I guess it needs done. [1zhelp]

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Keeper
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COPPER25 and CAROL....Friends, I am sorry I opened my big keyboard.

I tried to make it clear when I was trying to say that so many posts here are not clear.

You don't need to answer this but let me ask you another way...If a poster is trying to prove a point by using scripture out of context, does that have anything to do with scripture not contradicting itself?

Copper25, you could have been just adding to the conversation like Carol said but I didn't read it that way the first time. I am guilty also.
I went back and read it and you said; Interestingly enough also....

Back to the subject...On this board there have been several who have quoted scripture and it was poorly used out of context. I also assume that they got it from someone else and never bothered to check it out. Those people that do that are the ones who often say they are the answer to God's perfect Christian who are just trying to kid themselves also. The other ones who do it are the atheists, and I know that 99% of them get their info from books or web sites.

If you can talk to an atheist who is sincere and not hateful, you can have an interesting conversation. On the other hand, if you are talking to a self-approved Giant of Christiandom, you have about as much of a chance of carrying on a respectable conversation as you do turning a dollar bill into a twenty dollar bill.

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Carol Swenson
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Anyway, Copper you said that scripture does not contradict itself. This is true. All of scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and we need His help as we study to understand what He wants to teach us.
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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
IMHO you did good. [Smile]

I think Keeper was referring to my bad quoting because what is above is what I should had quoted only so that my comment made more sense.

but I quoted

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
IMHO you did good. [Smile]

I have seen some posters here, though, who would quote maybe a dozen verses out of context trying to force them to prove a point that those verses were not meant to prove.

instead. Is this what you were saying keeper?

Do I do bad jobs at quoting? [Smile] oops

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Interestingly enough also , a hard apple for some people to chew from what I have beared witness to is that scripture does not contradict itself.

To me it looks like Copper was adding to what I said. That's how I took it, and there's nothing wrong with doing that. How else could we have discussions?
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Keeper
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Copper25...Nope, you still don't get what I am saying. Forget the spelling for now. If you read the text you will find that you did what you did to me in your last text. You missed the point. If it matters.
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Copper25
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so my spelling was not the best at the moment.

Good thing I'm not in a spelling b [pound]

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Keeper
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Copper 25...In reference to your post 6/5 at 6:57am, read Carols post just ahead of yours then read your post again.

See, that is exactly what I was talking about.

Carol was talking about people quoting scripture out of context claiming that it backed up what they had said.

You said, scripture doesn't contradict itself.

See what I mean?

Spell Check would be helpful for some also.

Our discussions would be much more meaningful if we would stop and read the posts carefully.

Go sit in the corner.

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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper25:
quote:
Originally posted by KnowHim:


This is a very big problem with the OSAS people because they convence people that never was really born-again that they are saved but in reality they the person is on their way to hell if they don't come to know Jesus Christ, repent and turn from their sins.

I believe in perserverance of the saints or eternal security as others call it, BUT I would say test one's self to see if they are really in the faith. Look at 1 John.

People teach with err. If a person does not have a hatred or strong feeling of resentment toward sin, if the fruit of their lifestyle is walking in darkness, they clearly are not born again!

By their fruits.

Matthew 7

16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I say this truly, there will be evidence of regeneration in every true believer's life. No evidence, no change, no regeneration, then that person needs to seek God because their life denies God and shows that they don't love Him, nor know him.

This topic can be an entirly different thread, but point being, some people teach error.

True, I agree.

.

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
IMHO you did good. [Smile]

I have seen some posters here, though, who would quote maybe a dozen verses out of context trying to force them to prove a point that those verses were not meant to prove.

Thank you, I try to make it a big point to handle the word with care.


Interestingly enough also, a hard apple for some people to chew from what I have beared witness to is that scripture does not contradict itself.

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Carol Swenson
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IMHO you did good. [Smile]

I have seen some posters here, though, who would quote maybe a dozen verses out of context trying to force them to prove a point that those verses were not meant to prove.

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Copper25
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OK, I could have given better explanation on context of the verses I used. [Frown]

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Carol Swenson
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Proof Texting

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000394

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Here are several brief suggestions to improve our posts.

1. Keep each of our personal posts focused on one single point in the discussion.

2. Don't resort to a "proof-texting" tactic of biblical interpretation to justify our point or argument. This only causes an endless stream of "proofs" to support contratry opinions of doctrine.

3. When we quote someone in the Forum or from outside of the Forum, cite the precise source of the quotation before making it. Make sure that the viewer can check the context of the quotation for him/herself.

4. Try to make our post a message of encouragement for other members of the Forum and a word of inspired truth for guests who may read it.

I can elaborate on these suggestions or add more if necessary, but I think that the implementation of these few ones would go a long way to improving our posts. It is up to us to make the appropriate changes in our posting.

First, interesting, people say opinions, but I do say this, the text does have an actually meaning. Example, "Jesus is God", we can go after proof through proof to show this point to be true and we can rest assured that this IS NOT an opinion.

Thats one topic of many that are like that. The difference in people is this, whether they will say what the scripture means or make it fit their opinion and disregaurd accuracy.

I say this, relativism is not a good thing

Second, I like them, but one question, this is a Christian site, I mean it is important to use scripture to show we are not pulling thoughts out of sky. If someone said something, but couldn't give scriptural support, then there is a line of questioning that answer.

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Carol,

I love you girl. Please don't take this wrong way, but I don't think it is necessary for Christians to agree on everything. I do not expect hubby to agree on everything I believe, and we have been married coming up on 39 years.
So no hard feelings on my part against anybody.
betty

I love you too Betty. I've never met anyone who agrees with others all the time. [hug]
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TB125
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Here are several brief suggestions to improve our posts.

1. Keep each of our personal posts focused on one single point in the discussion.

2. Don't resort to a "proof-texting" tactic of biblical interpretation to justify our point or argument. This only causes an endless stream of "proofs" to support contratry opinions of doctrine.

3. When we quote someone in the Forum or from outside of the Forum, cite the precise source of the quotation before making it. Make sure that the viewer can check the context of the quotation for him/herself.

4. Try to make our post a message of encouragement for other members of the Forum and a word of inspired truth for guests who may read it.

I can elaborate on these suggestions or add more if necessary, but I think that the implementation of these few ones would go a long way to improving our posts. It is up to us to make the appropriate changes in our posting.

--------------------
Bob

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Friends, All of you....Our posts are in shambles.
------------------

That is the way we like it. [Big Grin] [wave3] [clap2]

[pound]

Keeper, they are in shambles. Well hat do you sugest for us to do? Take the thread apart post by post and unshamble them. JIGSAW PUZZLE [pound]

Frankly, I think that most of us, can't stick with answers of simplicity or is that just me? [pound]

The only way people don't have to play catch up is if we keep putting intermission post with updates on what has gone on with in last set of 10 post. Other then this Idea I am not sure.

Got any ideas anyone?

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Betty Louise
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Friends, All of you....Our posts are in shambles.
------------------

That is the way we like it. [Big Grin] [wave3] [clap2]

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Keeper
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Friends, All of you....Our posts are in shambles.

I suppose that folks are in a hurry to read the posts and catch up on what is being said. In doing so, too many times, what is said is misunderstood. When this happens it is like having a blow out on the interstate, well sorta.

This forum is a shining example but not much. It goes on in every forum starting with the second post even.

By the time you got to this post you found that some could love Jesus and some can't and some don't and some fake it. You found that salvation was not by works but works were belief and some involved in works were Christians and some were not according to scripture but some were. Other scripture was offered but not understood and some understood but not about the subject. Some are sticking with others on a subject but the others were not agreeing with the subject that poster was agreeing to. Some are getting frustrated, some a little angry and some wondering what the heck is going on here.

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MentorsRiddle
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Cooper25 wrote:
quote:
Relativism is a deadly thing floating around these days
So sad and true...

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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Betty Louise
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Thank you Cooper.
I admit since I turned 50, my mind is not as sharp as it was and sometimes, I do have problems getting my point across. Have a blessed day.
love,
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Copper25
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Ok, I think I finally know clearly waht you are saying.

Proverbs 16:25)There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

because of a person following their own definition and standard of loving God, which is relativism, which is fake, not biblical, will land that in hell. These people would think they love God BUT in reality they didn't, biblically speaking.

Thus the conclusion, Many people that THINK they love God, BUT DON'T, will end up in hell.

After many post, I think it is finally clear. [thumbsup2]

It was a good reveiw of scripture.

Relativism is a deadly thing floating around these days.

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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Betty Louise
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A Christian loves God with all their hearts and soul. A Christian as much as it hurts will willing go to Heaven knowing that some of their loved ones will go to hell.

A non Christian can feel they love God. They can even talk about loving God, but they put themselves, sin, and others before God. Their love is not Godly love. They love God on their own terms. Because the reject God's Holy Word over time, they begin to believe the lie that God will conform His plan of salvation to their own needs.

God does not see this as love. This is why the Bible says if you love God you will keep His commandments, but man does see themselves loving God. That is how there will be people in hell who lived a life believing they loved God.
Can a man go to hell who loves God? In human terms the answer is yes, but if they truly loved God as the Bible says they would turn from their sins and repent.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by KnowHim:


This is a very big problem with the OSAS people because they convence people that never was really born-again that they are saved but in reality they the person is on their way to hell if they don't come to know Jesus Christ, repent and turn from their sins.

I believe in perserverance of the saints or eternal security as others call it, BUT I would say test one's self to see if they are really in the faith. Look at 1 John.

People teach with err. If a person does not have a hatred or strong feeling of resentment toward sin, if the fruit of their lifestyle is walking in darkness, they clearly are not born again!

By their fruits.

Matthew 7

16) Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I say this truly, there will be evidence of regeneration in every true believer's life. No evidence, no change, no regeneration, then that person needs to seek God because their life denies God and shows that they don't love Him, nor know him.

This topic can be an entirly different thread, but point being, some people teach error.

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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Copper25
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quote:
Mat 19:21
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Mat 19:22
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

First off Betty, I ask you this, where does it say in the CONTEXT of Mat 19 that the rich man loved Jesus? [Big Grin]

So frankly, your argument failed on this cause. So give me scripture thatshows a person loved God, but just didn't put Him first in their life.

Here is my defense. Biblical history shows people who don't love God

First who loves God?

Deuteronomy 7:

9) Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

10) And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

They that are destroyed are they that do not seek God and to obey Him. You cannot seperate obedience to God from loving Him. It is not biblical

Who doesn't love God?

OT Examples

Jeremiah 2:13) For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Now was Isreal just loving God less, or did they completely hate Him because of what their actions say.

Let us examine the context shall we

20) For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.

Israel played the harlot. I ask you truly, when Israel had idols of mass quantity, did they just love God less? Yes or No?

Do you forsake the one you love? When Israel played the Harlot, were they having just less loyalty to God?

23) How canst thou say, I am not polluted, I have not gone after Baalim? see thy way in the valley, know what thou hast done: thou art a swift dromedary traversing her ways

Betty Give me a scripture in any of the prophets from Amos to Zephaniah, A - Z, that beared witness to this type of statment, "While you had your idols, while you were going a whoring after the gods around you, you still loved me a little"

Betty, Give me on example in the ENTIRE BIBLE. Search the scripture and tell me one example of any statement like the one above! Please and thank you.

NT

John 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments

Jesus spoke this. Now Betty, also in the whole NT give me one scripture where Jesus says something like this, "If you love me a little, keep my commandments a little" or someone saying "If you love God a little, then be ye seperate a little, be ye holy a little"

Please give scriptural responses for each one of my questions. Thank you.

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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Betty Louise
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Carol,

I love you girl. Please don't take this wrong way, but I don't think it is necessary for Christians to agree on everything. I do not expect hubby to agree on everything I believe, and we have been married coming up on 39 years.
So no hard feelings on my part against anybody.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

It is not our job to blithely condemn souls to hell because we think they aren't good enough, and then to happily congratulate one another because we think we're better than they are. We are not better than they are - we are forgiven, not righteous. He is righteous, not us. His is the kingdom and the power and the glory, not ours. Self-righteousness is a bad thing; pride is a bad thing.

---------------

If you want to change this to read there are people who say they love Jesus but don't really, then I will agree with you. But as long as this says they genuinely love Him, I cannot agree.

>>>> It is not our job to blithely condemn souls to hell because we think they aren't good enough, and then to happily congratulate one another because we think we're better than they are.

Where did you see this happening in these posts?

>>> If you want to change this to read there are people who say they love Jesus but don't really, then I will agree with you. But as long as this says they genuinely love Him, I cannot agree.

Well this is what I thought it meant. People use the word love so lightly now a days that they say they love anything, but they mean they like it.

People that are actually born-again - saved people will not go to hell because they do love Jesus and will not live in sin, they repent and turn from their sin.

People that just mouth the words and go for the easy push button pray and then think they are saved but never come to know Jesus Christ and continue to live in sin will go to hell because they never was saved nor born-again to start with.

This is a very big problem with the OSAS people because they convence people that never was really born-again that they are saved but in reality they the person is on their way to hell if they don't come to know Jesus Christ, repent and turn from their sins.


.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
This way they can say they love God but not feel convicted.
The Holy Spirit will convict them if they are the Lord's.
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Betty Louise
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Mat 19:21
Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Mat 19:22
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

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Jesus never said that this man did no love Him, the man just loved money more


Jesus must come first in our loves over even over our own husbands and wives. When we love a person, thing or power more then Jesus, then our love is not enough. Jesus will not come second. When we begin to compromise and little by little we put God off the throne of our lives and put something else.

Sometimes it is sin. A person who doesn't want to give up sin, will begin to reject the God of the Bible and begin to serve a God that agrees with them. Sadly in this world there are Churches that will not only allow you to sit in the pew believing that you can live in a sinful lifestyle and be saved, some even allow the Pastor to live in sin and preach. These Churches sing about loving God and they even believe they love God.
The point is not that they don't love God, as much as they love not the God of the Bible, but a God they have created.
Do they love the God of the Bible? Of course not!!!
But it can be said that they love God, it is just a "god" they have formed to meet their needs instead of trusting in the God of the Bible and changing their lives to please Him. Sometimes, people start out loving the God of the Bible, but they begin to hang around with people living in a sinful lifestyle. Then they begin to reject the God of the Bible because they have a hard time believing the gay guy that cuts their hair could go to hell, because he is so nice. Instead of seeking God in prayer to save their friend, they begin to take away from God what the Bible says is true and add characteristics that are not Biblical. This way they can say they love God but not feel convicted.
I hope this makes what I am saying more clear.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Cooper,

I give up. Go out in the world talk to people who say they love God and Jesus and you will find that not everyone who says they love God and Jesus are truly saved. Like I said, David got what I mean so that makes me feel alittle better
betty

Have you completely been missing what I have been saying! [Eek!]


I said

quote:
Still want it plainer? All those that truly love Jesus will go to heaven, and will have eternal life. EVERYONE, I don't care what they confess, who depart from Christ (see Matthew 7:21-23), who end up in hell, have no relationship with Jesus and has not loved Jesus.

I SAID

quote:
I am going to speak very plainly now, many people are going to hell because there whole life there were acknowledging the Lord in speech, praising Him with their lips, but their heart was far from him.

As it is written (Matthew 15:8) "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

quote:
Matthew 7

21)Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done
many wonderful works?

23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are

I think we can PLAINLY see that lip service will land someone in hell if that is all they are, just saying "Lord, Lord" but not following after Jesus! Those that love the Lord clearly will not end up in the above situations

Betty, have you completely just not been reading what I posted!!!


I marvel that you missed these verses that I used.

Throughout the whole book of 1 john, there is proof that talk of the Lord is worth nothing!
Look at 1 john.

I will say this plainly, many confess Jesus WITH THEIR MOUTH, BUT they are not His sheep, and are not bor again!!!

As far as worshipping a "god" created like them instead of the true God, well LOOK at and READ my last post, IDOLISM! If they know not and worship not the TRUE God, but rather a made up version in their mind, IDOLISM!!! Thus concluding, correct me if I am wrong, that they DON'T LOVE the TRUE God, but RATHER they LOVE a "god", they CREATED, in their own mind!


Betty, can you now see what I have posted? [Confused]

Have I uttered in parables? [Confused]

Have I not spoken PLAINLY? [Confused]

If I still haven't got it, give me scripture as I have been requesting of you for this third time Betty. Please. Are you hard pressed to find one supporting verse? Seriously?

I am just well...

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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
No one is saying we are saved by works. That is just what you added.
The first post in this topic is all about behavior. I don't recognize a difference between behavior and works. It says these people love Jesus, but they don't act the way they should. They change their understanding of who Jesus is to suit themselves.

Either a person is born again or he isn't. He is not saved by his doctrine or his theology or his behavior. He is saved by Jesus Christ.


I think of the prodigal son...

Luke 15:11-32

20 "But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.


...and of the tax collector praying in the temple...

Luke 18:9-14
But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."


...and I remember our Lord said...

Matthew 7:1
Do not judge, or you too will be judged.


...and Paul said...

Romans 14:4
Who are you to condemn God's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let Him tell them whether they are right or wrong . The Lord's power will help them do as they should.

Romans 14:10
So why do you condemn another Christian ? Why do you look down on another Christian? Remember, each of us will stand personally before the judgment seat of God.


And I wonder "Who am I to say someone is not good enough for the Master's Kingdom?"

Who am I to condemn someone to an endless torment in hell just because I think I'm better than they are? They are sinners but I'm not? Hogwash!

quote:
There are people who genuinely love Jesus, but they do not want to give themselves to Jesus.
If they genuinely love Jesus then He will deal with them. If they don't belong to Him, our job is to pray for them and tell them about Him.

It is not our job to blithely condemn souls to hell because we think they aren't good enough, and then to happily congratulate one another because we think we're better than they are. We are not better than they are - we are forgiven, not righteous. He is righteous, not us. His is the kingdom and the power and the glory, not ours. Self-righteousness is a bad thing; pride is a bad thing.

I am not saying that it's okay to do whatever we want and/or continue to sin. We grieve the Holy Spirit; we quench the Holy Spirit. Obedience brings blessings, and disobedience brings discipline. But a Christian, however foolish he is, will never be condemned to hell. Our Lord Jesus Christ will NOT lose any that the Father has given to Him.

If you want to change this to read there are people who say they love Jesus but don't really, then I will agree with you. But as long as this says they genuinely love Him, I cannot agree.

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Betty Louise
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Cooper,

I give up. Go out in the world talk to people who say they love God and Jesus and you will find that not everyone who says they love God and Jesus are truly saved. Like I said, David got what I mean so that makes me feel alittle better
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
The idea of the post is not about Christians and non Christians but about people who truly believe they love God, but they do not love the God of the Bible, but a God that they have formed to meet their lifestyles or needs. David got it, no one else seems to. That is okay.

It is like the man who truly believe he loves his wife even though he cheats on her every chance he gets. He believes he loves her but his love is flawed. A person who loves Jesus, but expects Jesus to conform to his or her image, has a flawed love.
They can be genuine in their love, but if their love is based on the Jesus they made instead of the real Jesus, then they will go to hell.

betty

I got one word "idolism"

This simply means that they genuinely don't love God.

Acts 17:23) For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

did the Athens Genuinely love God?

No, simply no

I simply will say this, if a person's love is toward the TRUE Triune God, then they are simply loving an idol, whether it be created in their mind or a visable thing. Thus as I have concluded before, those that genuinely love God go to heaven and those that don't go to hell.


Betty, sadly I asked of you scripture support. please show me scripture for your idea because I plainly see in the bible, that those who TRULY and genuinely love God go to heaven.

How do we know when someone genuinely loves God? It will be manifest through action.

John 14:15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Listen, Betty, I plainly think you are reffering to a type of IDOLISM. And Idolator shall not inherit the kingdom of God and does not Love God.

You are taking about a god that a person made up in their own mind because they stay ignorant of The true God. As a result, they follow the ways of the world to destrcution

quote:
A person who loves Jesus, but expects Jesus to conform to his or her image, has a flawed love.
They can be genuine in their love, but if their love is based on the Jesus they made instead of the real Jesus, then they will go to hell.

For this saying, give me scriptural proof, give me verses to support what you say Betty. Please and thank you.

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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Betty Louise
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The idea of the post is not about Christians and non Christians but about people who truly believe they love God, but they do not love the God of the Bible, but a God that they have formed to meet their lifestyles or needs. David got it, no one else seems to. That is okay.

It is like the man who truly believe he loves his wife even though he cheats on her every chance he gets. He believes he loves her but his love is flawed. A person who loves Jesus, but expects Jesus to conform to his or her image, has a flawed love.
They can be genuine in their love, but if their love is based on the Jesus they made instead of the real Jesus, then they will go to hell.

betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
only a few can understand my mind [crying] [Eek!] [Big Grin]

Betty, I thought the topic was

"Is it possible to love Jesus and still go to hell?"

Now, have I spoken fasley in my last post? I am just being biblical

Second? Point blank, no in between Betty, Do you think that those who loves Jesus goes to hell? Yes or No? Please give scriptural support

I think this would clear the confusion.

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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Betty Louise
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only a few can understand my mind [crying] [Eek!] [Big Grin]

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Found in Him:
Copper, Just because these people who say "Lord, Lord" called Him Lord means neither did they ever know Him or love Him

There are MANY that profess Jesus in this lifetime for their own gain (usually money)... FEW that possess Him (abide in Him)

This is lip service and not a person that loves Jesus. Like I said, The Lord knows who His own are.

Jesus will declare to these people, and I quote: I NEVER KNEW YOU

I am going to speak very plainly now, many people are going to hell because there whole life there were acknowledging the Lord in speech, praising Him with their lips, but their heart was far from him.

As it is written (Matthew 15:8) "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me."

And how do we know their will be many who go to hell, look at at Matthew 7. If you depart from Jesus, you don't just sit right outside the gate of heaven forever now do you?

quote:
There are MANY that profess Jesus in this lifetime for their own gain (usually money)... FEW that possess Him (abide in Him)
By the way, did I ever say that there were not false prophets? Of course their are. As it is written, (Jude 1:3)"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Have I in any way communicated to you that there will be many that find eternal life?

When I said "atheist saying "Lord, Lord", I was reffering to those claiming to be Christians that actually aren't and deny Jesus with their lifestyle or way of living. They really don't love Jesus.

Now, let me be even more plain about those that love Jesus

13) Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Out of the many who are claiming to be his disciples, there are only few who are in the straight gate, few who are on the narrow way, few that will find eternal life. ALL the rest NEVER loved Jesus. And for that matter were not good trees. Why? Matthew 7:19) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Still want it plainer? All those that truly love Jesus will go to heaven, and will have eternal life. EVERYONE, I don't care what they confess, who depart from Christ (see Matthew 7:21-23), who end up in hell, have no relationship with Jesus and has not loved Jesus.

Thus we can conclude, ALL that don't love Jesus go to Hell and ALL that love Jesus go to heaven.

Is this plain enough? [Big Grin]

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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carol,
You stated:
"The only repentance required is to repent from unbelief and put our faith in Christ".

Do you believe that a murderer can keep on murdering, a liar can keep on lying, a thief can keep on stealing, a fornicator can keep on fornicating........and still receive forgiveness because they repented of unbelief in Jesus?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Betty Louise
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David,

It looks like you and I are the odd men out. Most important of all though is salvation is serving the Jesus of the Bible and not trying to recreate Jesus in our image.
Have a blessed evening.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Found in Him
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Copper, Just because these people who say "Lord, Lord" called Him Lord means neither did they ever know Him or love Him

There are MANY that profess Jesus in this lifetime for their own gain (usually money)... FEW that possess Him (abide in Him)

This is lip service and not a person that loves Jesus. Like I said, The Lord knows who His own are.

Jesus will declare to these people, and I quote: I NEVER KNEW YOU

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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24

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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Found in Him:
Are we not talking about different subjects here?

Subject: Loving Jesus and still going to hell.

We all make choices.. some with words, some with actions. God weighs the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows His own.

quote:
We all make choices.. some with words

Some with words, what like just saying "Lord, Lord"?

Matthew 7

21)Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done
many wonderful works?

23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are

I think we can PLAINLY see that lip service will land someone in hell if that is all they are, just saying "Lord, Lord" but not following after Jesus! Those that love the Lord clearly will not end up in the above situations


quote:
Are we not talking about different subjects here?
I say this, I didn't get to the love part in my explaining, BUT I do ask you this.

Can someone that does not walk in the light, or not keep his commandment, someone who practices unrighteousness, or love the world, possibly be loving God?

An Atheist and an Atheist saying "Lord, Lord" are in the same pot. Why?

The Atheist saying "Lord, Lord" doesn't love God, simply because the lifestyle of that person completely denies him and shows they don't love God.

By the way just because someone goes to church does not mean that they love God.

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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Keeper
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Betty, there is a lot of that going on in that neck of the woods. It is sort of like living your occupation of make believe.

Throw that in with freedom of speech and what do you have? Freedom of religion and freedom of speech means a person going no where and proving it by telling you so.

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Betty Louise
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Years ago, in an interview with a Woman's magazine, Goldie Hawn(the actress) said that she had put together her own religion. She took the parts of Christianity that she loved, Muslim, Buddhist, and new age, among others and put them together to form her own religion. Yet, she considered herself a Christian.
This is not about losing your salvation. This is about people who have issues with the God of the Bible, so they pick and choose and put together their own faith. One that will go with the lifestyle they choose to lose.

betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Keeper
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Know Him....I am glad that you mentioned Acts 3:19. If you don't gather with it the rest of the story it could lead you down a path of confusion.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Say What ?!?! It says to repent by changing your mind and the direction your life is taking you to. It is a life transforming choice.

Then it says "and be converted", not eventually but be converted, which must mean now. God's word says you will be accepted through grace and be a member of the family of God. Adopted.

It goes on..."that your sins may be blotted out"
ok, but wait a minute it goes on to say "blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come".
Does that mean they won't be blotted out until Jesus returns? Answer: Yes and No. It means that when Jesus comes "from the presence of the Lord;" you will have been forgiven of your sins since the day you were saved and still blotted out on that day of refreshing.

So, what Peter is telling is that it will be great for them to be able to partake in the ushering in the great events of the end time
Repent and turn to God, and join in the refreshing so that the foreordained Christ who is to restore everything will be celebrated.
Peter is telling them that they can be there when the not yet believers and Jews come to meet the Messiah.

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MentorsRiddle
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Found in Him, you wrote
quote:
I personally believe that nothing can separate a believer from The love of The Lord and then be cast into hell except that once believer separates himself from The Lord and returns to the world and the sin he came out of.

We all make choices.. some with words, some with actions. God weighs the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows His own.

Well stated...

I think that is a wonderful post.

I agree 100%

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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MentorsRiddle
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Betty Louise,

What you wrote above:
quote:
They love Jesus on their terms and not on Jesus' terms. They love God but they want God to deal with them on their terms. They give God a portion of their time but the rest of themselves they hold back.
And

quote:
Then there are those who are not happy with the God of the Bible, so they invent a God who is conformed to their image
This is the definition of hypocrisy is it not?

People are horrible and have been making “conformed to their image” gods for a long time called: idols.

It’s just so sad that people are the way they are.

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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Found in Him
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Are we not talking about different subjects here?

Subject: Loving Jesus and still going to hell.

We have works, grace, faith and love---and then hell here that we are discussing.

Can a believer that loves the Lord go to hell?

I personally believe that nothing can separate a believer from The love of The Lord and then be cast into hell except that once believer separates himself from The Lord and returns to the world and the sin he came out of.

We all make choices.. some with words, some with actions. God weighs the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows His own.

--------------------
~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24

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Copper25
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I apologize for the length [Big Grin]

KnowHim said

"What do you do with the below?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity - Matthew 7:21-23

Are you just going to delete this from your bible and make your own?"
_______________________________________

I think that people just struggle with the connection of how works link to faith.

First, regeneration

Only by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, is brought unto the ways of repentence.

Repentance is more than just acting more in the ways of morality. part of repentance is the desire to also pursue God, the change in one's attitude toward sin, and also births the desire to please God better in one's life, and births a desire to obey God.

Now where does the fruit come from, does man just say, "O I want to be fruitful for God today", or "Hmmm, what type of fruit should I bear today"? No, simply no.

1 Thessalonians 2:13) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Again

Seed = word of God

Matthew 13:23) But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Fruitfulness in a person's life has to do with God working in us. Have ye not read (Galatians 5:22-23) "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance"

Notice, without the working of the Spirit, you CANNOT be fruitful, and of course you are not even Christ'.

Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Simply put, works are a manifestation of God's working in us, the word of God dwelling in us, conforming us more to the image of Christ.


The Balance.

Is faith without works acceptable? No

James 2:20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Is faith by works acceptable? Nay

Isaiah 64:6)But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Are we saved by our works? No

Ephesians 2

8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Now this is a hard thing for people to chew, the why to Ephesians 2:8-9?

10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In the faith, yes there is also commitment, we do not just lay on the ground for the rest of our life saying "lift me up".

New nature will as a result of converstion, generate fruitfulnes

A person who is unregenerated, only bad fruit will be generated.

Now look!


Matthew 7

17) Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

It will all boil down to this, has God really started working in your life? Are you regenerated?

1 john 1

6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How a person lives in their lifestyle will say a lot. Your ether walking in darkness, not cleansed by the blood of Christ, or you are walking in the Light and are cleansed by the blood of Christ. There is NO IN BETWEEN.

--------------------
Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator



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