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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » Jesus is the Sabbath (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Jesus is the Sabbath
Michael Harrison
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For you cannot 'have' this 'having' while in your sinful state. For this, you must repent unto having His resurrected life, and the ability to rise above sin by having this work of our Lord imparted. But you cannot 'do' it. Failure only fails. Scripture says that you are a failure. You can however 'have' His life which is not a failure! Amen? Amen!!!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
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Jesus is the Sabbath Rest who will be observed throughout eternity. There is a reason that He is the Rest of God. It is because all of our hope is invested in Him. He is the end of our Labor - as it pertains to keeping the law of doing. This is why scripture declares that:


Heb 6:13 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,"
Heb 6:16 "For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife."

Jesus - the end of all strife!~

For by Jesus we are having. Is He not worthy of praise?

Gal 3:18 "For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise."
Gal 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

So by promise, we have; that is, we inherit. and 'who' do we inherit?

Gal 4:7 "Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

We are no more servants, but sons by being heirs of God. We are heirs of God by promise, not by doing. Therefore as heirs by promise, we are having!

Joh 8:36 "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."


The law represents a sacrifice of 'doing' which we are free from, because we are 'having it done for us'. Therefore we can 'walk' in it (by having, as heirs)! This is the love of God!!! Amen!

Therefore if you are trying to do it, you offer the sacrifice of Cain, and you pick up sticks on the Sabbath by denying the rest of God who Jesus is. Amen!

You do sin and rejoice in it. Sin not by denying the Lord who brought you. Grow into the fullness of the stature of Christ. Do it today! For the method of our 'doing' is by faith. By "Faith" we 'do' it by not doing it, but rather having it done for us.

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Keith
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Genesis 4 3And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

In the above scriptures, we have the account of two different worshipers of God. These two men are the offspring of Adam and Eve, and there modes of worship are a fit representative of all the offspring of Adam and Eve that will ever inhabit this world. They are both bringing an offering to the God that they worship. However, God only respects the offering of one of them. Why do you suppose God rejected one offering, and accepted the other? Cain is given a warning from God about his actions. What was it about Cain’s offering that was not well, and was a sign that sin was in his heart? To find the answer to this question, we must go to the book of Hebrews, which addresses this very issue.

Hebrews 11 4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

According to the book of Hebrews, the offering, or sacrifice of Abel was by faith, while the offering of Cain was apparently not. It is not possible to have faith regarding something to which you have no understanding. It is obvious therefore, that God had already instructed Cain and Abel, as to what constituted a proper offering. All throughout the scriptures a lamb has been a type of Christ. It has been offered to God as a sacrifice, signifying the believer’s faith in the Messiah to come. There is no reason to believe that God left this important truth up to humanity to figure out for themselves. Thus, Abel’s offering was by faith in the word of God, by way of instruction concerning the promise of a coming Messiah.

Romans 10 16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

According to the above verses, faith comes by hearing, and believing the word of God. The apostle Paul is speaking of the Jews in the above verses, testifying to the fact that although they heard the word of God, they did not believe it. Although God continually stretched forth His hands to Israel, they still did not believe, and were a disobedient people. God has not left His people in ignorance. The gospel has always been explained to those whom He calls His own. Paul testifies to this fact concerning Israel in the book of Hebrews. Lets look at some scriptures that we have already discussed, pertaining to faith and entering into God’s rest.

Hebrews 4 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The Jews were given the gospel message, just as we are. They would not believe it. That is to say, they would not let it have it’s desired effect. What is the desired effect of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Is it not the willing submission, and obedience of the created being to their creator. Those who believe God, will act accordingly, that is in accordance with His expressed will. This is basic. The Jews gave God lip service, but would not follow through with their actions. Is not this the very thing that each and everyone of us struggle with? This is where the buck stops, with each and every individual who claims to be one of God’s children. Our actions will reveal our faith. Is our faith in God, resulting in obedience to Him, or is it in ourselves, resulting in our obedience to the flesh.

This is exactly what made the difference between the offerings of Cain and Abel. God does not leave us in ignorance concerning our salvation. Abel brought an offering of the firstlings of his flock, that is a lamb, because God had already instructed them that only the lamb of God could save them from their sins. This is the essential truth, nothing from ourselves can in any way add to our salvation, which comes to us through Christ alone. We cannot make salvation a mixture of Gods offering, and my offering. The offering is Christ alone, and my complete submission to His example in all things. There can be none of me, it must be all of Christ, He must be all in all.

This was the problem with Cain’s offering. He brought the fruit, of the labors of his own hands as an offering, or sacrifice to God. Cain thought he would bring the best that he had to offer. That which he had put so much time and effort into, for he was a tiller of the ground (Gen. 4:2), as his best offering to God. His actions were not in accordance with faith in the word of God. He chose his own sacrifice, instead of the one that God had instructed. This is why obedience is better than sacrifice, because obedience is sacrifice. It is the sacrifice of our own wills, to the will of God.

1 Samuel 15 22And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

The sacrifice which God requires, has always been the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. Our God is not like the false god’s of this world, who require a gift to appease their anger. Our God is the one who gave the gift to us, for our salvation. That gift was His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. The scripture is clear - John 3 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

So what is this thing that God has done through His Son Jesus Christ. How is it that He has saved us from our sins. Observe the following.

Hebrews 10 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

God takes no pleasure in burnt offerings, and sacrifices for sin. Instead, He prepared a body for His Son to live in. That body was our body. It was our flesh, and fallen human nature that Christ became one with (Acts 13:22&23, Rom. 1:1-4, Gal. 3:16, 2 Tim. 2:8, Heb. 2:10-18). This He did in order to become the true sacrifice, and offering to God. He took away the first, in order to establish the second. That is to say, He took away the system of sacrificing animals as a type of Himself, in order to perform the true sacrifice. What then is the true sacrifice? It is the sacrifice of the will of the sinner, who is in rebellion against God, to the will of God, the rightful ruler of all creation.

Thus Christ came,“ to do thy will, O God”. That is, to do God’s will, in our sinful flesh, the body which God had prepared for Him. This was according to the eternal purpose of God the Father, through his Son the Lord Jesus Christ. “1By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” This is our sanctification, that is, the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Not just that He hung on a cross for us, but moreover, that He sacrificed the will of his own flesh, which was our flesh, all His life long, until it lead Him to the cross. Where it ended for Him, It must begin for us.

Romans 6 1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This is where the rubber meets the road for all those who claim to be Christ’s. Have you died with Christ? Is it your intention to die to self. To live as unto God, through His Son Jesus Christ in the body that was prepared for Him, that is, your body. Jesus Christ came as one of us, and sacrificed the will of His flesh, which was our flesh, to the will of His Father, who is now our Father, according to the eternal purpose of God. He has prepared the way. Will we pick up our cross and follow Him.

Romans 12 1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Our bodies are the sacrifice of the new covenant. That is, if you are a member of the body of Christ. For Christ alone is the atoning sacrifice, therefore He became one with us, that we might become one with Him, according to the eternal purpose of God in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It was through Christ’s body, that is His flesh, which is our flesh, that the enmity was abolished and the two were made one. All of us are brought together in Christ, because He brought humanity and God together in Himself. He sanctified us, by becoming one of us, and carrying out the will of His Father perfectly in our flesh. Now if we are in Him, by faith, then He will be in us, and we will be one with Him and each other, as the body of Christ. If we have died with Him, then we shall also live with Him. That is to say, if we have entered into His death, then he will enter into our life. Do you want to be one with God? Do you realize the implications of what I am asking you? What have we done to deserve this? That we should be called the sons and daughters of the living God. It is beyond our comprehension.

What kind of worshipper are you? Will you submit to the authority of the Father, through His Son Jesus Christ? Or will you choose another path, submitting to no authority but your own, thus, making yourself God. There is one, who is the father of all who choose such a path. Christ was the Son of God. Those who enter into His experience by faith, become the sons and daughters of God. Those who will not, become the sons and daughters of the prince of this world.

John 8 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Who is your father? Who will you submit to? Will you worship God according as He has instructed, or will you choose for yourself how to worship? Will you try to mix some of your own offering in with the pure and undefiled offering of the Son of God? Will you go the way of Cain, or Abel? Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. We will go the way of Christ, or we will not go at all. Christ is God. He alone is the offering, and atonement for sin. He alone can sanctify the sinner with His presence in their life. He sanctified the seventh day of the week at creation, for God alone can sanctify anything. The observance of this day is a sign that you accept by faith, that God alone sanctifies, not only this day, but also the sinner that puts their faith and trust in the word of God. A sign that you submit to the authority of God, and it is your desire to follow the example given by His Son the Lord Jesus Christ when here on earth.

The observance of Sunday on the other hand, is a sign that those who observe it, have gone the way of Cain. Though they acknowledge God, and even worship Him, they will not submit to His authority regarding the manner in which they should do so. Ignoring the word of God regarding which day He has chosen and sanctified for the purpose of worship, they have chosen a day commanded by another. They present a blemished offering, which is not acceptable to God. “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.” They know what God has instructed, but they wish to go another way. It is time to make up our minds. Choose you this day, whom you will serve.

Deuteronomy 17 1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

You are the new covenant offering to God. If indeed you are among the body of Christ. Will you bring a spiritually blemished offering to the Lord? This is an abomination to God, and will not be accepted. We either make a complete sacrifice to the Lord, or we do not really make one at all. There is no half way in Christ, it is all the way, or not at all.

Matthew 10 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. 37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16 24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

We must lose our lives in Christ. He must become our all in all. Again I ask, what would Christ do, what did Christ do? Will you lose your life in Him, that He might save it? Or will you seek to save your own life, that is the life of the sinner, and lose the life which He is offering to each and every one of us? The truth could not be simpler. “ He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life.” (1Jn. 5:12)

The seventh day Sabbath was established at creation by Christ. It was, and still is, a sign that God created, sustains, redeemed, and sanctifies His own. Christ, when here on earth as one of us, obeyed the fourth commandment, and taught its proper observance. He was our perfect example in all things. Those who wish to present the offering of God’s own choosing, as Abel also did, will seek to follow His example in all things. This includes of course, obeying the fourth commandment.

Sunday sacredness is found nowhere in the word of God. Our Lord and Savior had nothing to say regarding its establishment, nor did any of His apostles. As has been proven already, it came about through the amalgamation of apostate Christianity, and the worship of the Sun. It has been promoted as a holy day by the man of sin himself. None but God can sanctify, that is make holy, anything. This claim is therefore blasphemous. Those who choose this day as holy, and reject the day that God himself has made holy, are going the way of Cain. They have chosen to worship God outside of the living example provided by the Lamb of God. They are therefore, none of His. Their offering is blemished, and will not be respected by God, through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

These two days represent the two different modes of worship in this world. The choice made regarding them, will divide this world in two. This is the message that will prepare the way for the second coming of Christ. Will you worship God according as He has instructed, or will you join Babylon in rebellion against God, by choosing the day that she has promoted. The one is a sign of your allegiance to God, and the other, to Babylon, that is, the great ***** which leads the world in rebellion against God. As the writer has put the issue forcefully upon you, so to in the near future will God allow Babylon to apply its pressure to the same. The message from God is clear. Make up your mind!

Revelation 22 6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

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TB125
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Yahsway,
I agree that there was something essentially wrong with Cain's offering, but the element that was "wrong" was not that it came from the "soil" or that it was given through his "toil". The element that made his offering not "right" with God may have been that he brought "SOME of the fruits" and not the "first" or the "best".

The text in Genesis doesn't state what Adam did or didn't do to teach or to instruct Cain and Abel in regard to their relationship with God. I can't believe that he would just leave them on their own even though they he had been "banished from the Garden" (Gen 3:23). His God-given assigment was "to work the ground" (Gen 3:23), so Adam was primarily a farmer, not a shepherd. I assume that he had some particular instructions to share with Cain, but perhaps Cain disregarded them.

It wasn't until the later birth of Seth, who took Abel's place, that "men began to call on the name of the Lord" (Gen 4:26). So Adam and his children had to learn how to worship and to serve God, their creator, and apparently they didn't do this very well even over the course of hundreds of years, because God decided he should start raising a new breed of humans with Noah.

And the process continued with Abram, Isaac, and Jacob, and Moses, and Joshua, and Samuel, and the kings, and the prophets, and the priests, and the scribes and Pharisees, and John the Baptist, and Jesus, and the disciples, and the apostles, and Paul, and Timothy, and us. And we are still trying to get it "right". So we share in this discussion. May God really instruct us through his wise Spirit!

--------------------
Bob

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yahsway
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I agree Michael, and to Bob, I never said in my previous post that Cain was cursed because of his "offering."

If you re-read in Gen 3, it says that Cain brought on offering of the "fruit" of the ground, But, its what it doesnt say.

It does not say he brought his "Firstfruit" of the ground. There is the difference in my opinon.

Leviticus 2:12 speaks of the offering of the "Firstfruits"-"As for the offering of the firstfruits, you shall offer them to the Lord, but they shall not be burned on the alter for a sweet aroma."

And here is where i believe the "firstfruit" is important. Cain may have kept the best for himself, that being the "firstfruit" and offered the rest to God, where as Able brought the firstfruit(Able also brought the firstborn of his flock and "Of their fat"-meaning the Firstfruit or the Best.

Bob, read Gen 5:29

And he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the Ground which the Lord has Cursed."

Then read Gen 8

In my opinon, this is only an opinon, Cain probably kept the best of his fruit(firstfruit) from the ground that he toiled for and offered God the rest, where as Able brought the Best of His flock first to God, he did not withold his best.

And that brings us to faith. Cain did not have enough faith in God to provide for him, so he was selfish by keeping back his best, the "firstfruit" of the ground and gave God the leftovers.

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Michael Harrison
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Cain's offering was of what he wanted to offer. It was what He wanted to please God. Able's offering had to be out of the fruit of relationship. He knew what God wanted. Therefore it was by faith, out of relationship.

There is no text previous to the mention of Adam and Eve sewing fig leaves together to cover themselves, but fig leaves represent the system of man. They represent man's trying to cover for his sin, cover in the absence of God, by a managment system that they came up with.

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TB125
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Yahsway,
In your explanation as to why God rejected Cain's offering you indicate:
quote:
Cains offering was something he Toiled/worked for.It was also from the ground that God cursed, Gen 3:17 "Cursed is the ground for your sake;...

You seem to assume that since Cain's offering was "fruits of the soil" that came from the ground that it was "cursed" and therefore unacceptable.

If such "fruit" was unacceptable, then why would God command the Israelites through Moses to bring the "firstfruits of your soil" to him as a sacrifice? (See Ex 34:26 and Lev 2:1-16)

God must have had a reason for accepting Abel's sacrifice and rejecting Cain's but the reason isn't clearly given at the time. In God's discussion with Cain regarding his sacrifice, God says to him, "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door;..." (Gen 4:7) Apparently there was something "sinful" about Cain's offering, but this "sin" element isn't clearly identified.

Cain was "cursed" by God for the murder of his brother not because his toil was an unacceptable offering (Gen 4:10-11).

--------------------
Bob

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yahsway
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Cains offering was something he Toiled/worked for.It was also from the ground that God cursed, Gen 3:17 "Cursed is the ground for your sake;...

Abels offering was something that Yah had already provided, the lamb(Lamb)and no doubt it was the best of Abels flock. The scripture says Abels lamb was of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat, meaning the best one.

Gen 3:21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

This early forshadowing of substitutionary atonement points toward the necessity of judgement upon the innocent to provide covering for the guilty.A Blood Covering.

Adam and Eve made a vain attempt to cover themselves with their own efforts by sewing fig leaves together.


As Adams attempt to cover himself with fig-leaves was rejected by God, so too was Cains offering.

Gods sacrifice of animals in the Garden had already established the Blood sacrifice as necessary for approaching Him.

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Keith
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[quote]Where is the biblical text that indicates God had instructed Cain and Abel what they should offer in sacrifice? I don't believe that there is any. There is no biblical text prior to Cain's and Abel's sacrifices that indicates why God "looked with favor" on Abel's sacrifice but didn't "look with favor" on Cain's (Gen 4:2-8}.

Neither you nor Michael can cite any text that explains why Abel's sacrifice was one of "faith" and Cain's was one of "self effort".[quote]

Read my post again. Do you think the author of Hebrews was lying? " Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God". If Abel gave his offering by faith, this implies that He had understanding regarding it, from the word of God. Cain however, was from the evil one, motivated by self, as his father the devil was and is.

I Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Jude 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

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TB125
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Keith,
You make the following statement:
quote:
Abel’s offering to God was by faith. God had instructed them concerning the offering He required, a lamb, which has always represented the Lord Jesus Christ, the LAMB OF GOD. Abel’s faith was not built upon a lucky guess as to what he should offer as a sacrifce to God. “Fatih comes by hearing, and hearing buy the word of God.” He brought the offering God had commanded. He had the obedience of faith. That is to say, he didn’t just believe, he backed up his belief with actions.

Where is the biblical text that indicates God had instructed Cain and Abel what they should offer in sacrifice? I don't believe that there is any. There is no biblical text prior to Cain's and Abel's sacrifices that indicates why God "looked with favor" on Abel's sacrifice but didn't "look with favor" on Cain's (Gen 4:2-8}.

Neither you nor Michael can cite any text that explains why Abel's sacrifice was one of "faith" and Cain's was one of "self effort".

--------------------
Bob

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Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

Heb 1:14 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

I Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Abel’s offering to God was by faith. God had instructed them concerning the offering He required, a lamb, which has always represented the Lord Jesus Christ, the LAMB OF GOD. Abel’s faith was not built upon a lucky guess as to what he should offer as a sacrifce to God. “Fatih comes by hearing, and hearing buy the word of God.” He brought the offering God had commanded. He had the obedience of faith. That is to say, he didn’t just believe, he backed up his belief with actions.

Cain on the other hand brought the works of his own hands to God as a sacrifice. He thought that he could offer the best he had, the works of his own hands instead of that which God had commanded. Thus His sacrifice was not respected by God. There is only one sacrifice that is acceptable to God, it is the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, the LAMB OF GOD. Cain rejected the Lord’s method of salvation, in favor of his own. Thus, his offering was rejected.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

What is obedience to God, but the sacrifice of our own will to that of the Father. This is the experience of those who would follow Christ.


Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
You seem to believe that one can be saved, receive and have salvation by faith alone, without any need to repent of one's sins or to live in a committed relationship with Jesus through one's obedient discipleship.
I have never come close to saying anything of the sort - not even nearly.

quote:
Individual disciples must have a role in living in a "santified" relationship with Jesus otherwise they are nothing but robots who have been "programmed" and taken over by Jesus.
Best that ye preferr to be 'taken over by Him', if you seek to "Do" His will!

Amen!!!

quote:
But "self effort" is required in order to be a "disciple" of Jesus.
Did I forget to mention that Cain offered his sacrifice by 'self effort'?

You relegate the resurrection power and works of the Lord to a system of "Merit", wherein you deserve by 'doing'. Followers of Christ 'follow after' and witness the manifestation of His righteousness in their life, and therefore, the works.

Amen!!!

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TB125
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Michael,
You seem to believe that one can be saved, receive and have salvation by faith alone, without any need to repent of one's sins or to live in a committed relationship with Jesus through one's obedient discipleship. This is to "have" Jesus as one's Savior without any need to commit one's self to him as Lord. According to this article and the numerous Scriptures that are cited, "...Jesus will not be a Savior to any man who refuses to bow to him as Lord" (as quoted from William Chantry, p. 10 of Webster's article).

Webster addresses "The Issue of Works" in this article. He says, "We need to distinguish between discipleship as an initial commitment and discipleship as a process, for it is both." (p. 20) He adds this comment: "Much of the confusion about commitment to Christ as Lord as 'works salvation' comes from a failure to distinuish between the two. (You seem to be caught in that state of confusion.) When Christ calls men to himself he calls them to a commitment of discipleship....From that commitment issues a life of good works in discipleship or sanctification. But unless this initial commitment is made there will be no new life of holiness because there is no union with Christ." (p. 20)

I think that committed discipleship is more than just belief in Jesus, the receiving of Jesus by faith. According to Webster, Jesus "tells men that it is only those who do the will of God who will enter the kingdom of heaven, that those who truly belong to him will manifest the reality of the relationship by bearing the fruit of obedience in their lives" (John 15:1-8; 8:31) (p. 2)

Individual disciples must have a role in living in a "santified" relationship with Jesus otherwise they are nothing but robots who have been "programmed" and taken over by Jesus. Jesus' persistent teachings on the challenge of discipleship doesn't allow for that type of a relationship with him. If you take self and one's "will" out of the relationship with Jesus that leaves Jesus in a relationship with his "clone". I don't believe that is what Jesus wants with his "disciples".

You make the following critique of Webster's account of "Lordship Salvation":
quote:
But to reiterate, Faith changes one, and all of his works will be of the Lord, every breathing moment! When the word 'works' is used, insomuch as it means 'obedience' to some, it (or they) cometh not of faith, but toil.

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Toil implies that it is of self effort, and motivation to please God. Cain did that (no doubt thinking he was being obedient)!

But "self effort" is required in order to be a "disciple" of Jesus. That is the whole point of his challenging teachings on discipleship, including his call for those who would be his "disciples" to "deny" themselves, "take up" their own crosses, and "follow" him (Mk 8:35). This is not to "die by faith", as you state above, but to die to self through a life of committed discipleship. A requirement for "self effort" is the basic point of Jesus' parables in Matthew 24 and 25: the "wicked servant" (Mt 24:42-51), the "ten virgins" (Mt 25:1-13), and the three "servants" (Mt 25:14-30). "Self effort" was a part of Paul's testimonty to his fellow disciples in Philippi when he acknowledged that he had not "already been made perfect", saying "I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of" him (Phil 3:12).

I think that Webster makes a strong biblical argument for the importance of repentance and obedient discipleship if a person is to live in a saving relationship with Jesus, who is not only Savior but Lord.

--------------------
Bob

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Michael Harrison
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Perhaps we are robots, or puppets! We are led and live from the inside, from His Spirit within us, not by our motivation and willingness in absence of His Spirit within us. Willingness, as a sacrifice of ourselves is not equal to life!
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Michael Harrison
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Quotes from LORDSHIP SALVATION


Biblical or Heretical?


By William Webster

With comments by moi!

William Hendriksen explains the meaning of this verse in these words, ‘Wholehearted devotion, all–out loyalty, complete self denial, so that one places himself, his time, his earthly possessions, his talents etc., at the disposal of Christ, is what Jesus asks’ (William Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary, The Gospel of Luke (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1981), p. 737).

They teach us that a Christian is one who has died to his life, in this world, and given himself wholly to Christ, to love him supremely and serve him exclusively. We cannot follow Christ and possess eternal life unless these word pictures are descriptive of our lives.
[
Shift of application of one’s self is not any different than shifting focus, or changing lanes on the same highway. You are still on the same road, but it seems different because???
]

His reply to Peter is both revealing and instructive for it reveals to us the master principle that governed the life of Christ. And it is this initial response to Peter which forms the backdrop to his additional comments to all the disciples and the multitudes. Jesus utterly rejects Peter’s suggestion, actually ascribing it to Satan, and then says to Peter: ‘You are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s (Mk. 8:33).’ [Here Jesus was literally talking to Satan, not to Peter! Jesus was seeing not in the earthly realm, but by the Spirit of His Father was seeing into the heavenlies, from whence this offence came by one Beelzebub who was manipulating Peter to say such a thing.]


Here Jesus sets forth a contrast between two life principles: God’s interests and man’s interests. And he reveals that the two are in conflict with one another. But he leaves us in no doubt as to which principle dominated his life. [Principle? Life is not a principle. Those who mistake it for principle do not understand ‘by’ the Spirit of the Living God, but rather by principle, which is all that the carnal mind can discover in the words of instruction, thinking them to mean application of ones self. Therefore one applies himself, which is working, or doing, to please God, while refusing the works of God which He would manifest if we would yield. Joh 5:17 “But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” I am inadequate to describe the grammatical structure of this statement, but when Jesus says “I work,” He means he follows, as His Father does the work. He doesn’t do it. He is ‘being’ worked by His Father.]

To know and do the will of God no matter what the cost to himself.[The better way to say this is that Jesus was committed to the will of God being done. He didn’t do it. He presented Himself a living sacrifice. It is passive!!!]

A cross is an instrument of death and is used in a metaphorical sense by Jesus. When the term is used in conjunction with the phrase ‘deny self’, it carries the idea of dying to my right to myself and of living to promote my own interests.
[Metaphorical? Not! It is literal. “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” The replaced life is not the one we are living. It is His life in us, by faith, which is not metaphorical. Here we have the same application shift as above. ]

John Stott comments: ‘To take up a cross is to put oneself into the position of a condemned man on his way to execution. In other words, the attitude to self is that of crucifixion. Everyday the Christian is to die. Everyday he renounces the sovereignty to his own will. Everyday he renews his unconditional surrender to Jesus Christ.’ (John Stott, Basic Christianity (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1972), pp. 111-112).[This is very good!]


Follow me: The tense of this verb indicates that it means to continually follow. Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament states that the Greek word follow means ‘to join one as a disciple, to become or be his disciple.’ To follow Jesus therefore means a death to self to become his disciple. I cease to live for my sake in order that I might live for his sake.[It is not living ‘for His sake’. That would be in morbid vain. One must live ‘by’ His life. As WyldB would say, “That is all.”]

Why the imperative call to deny self, take up a cross and follow Jesus? ‘For’, he says, ‘whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s the same shall save it’ (Mk. 8:35). The key to understanding the meaning of this verse is the word lose. The Greek ‘lose’ is precisely the same Greek word that is translated perish in other parts of the New Testament. It means to die eternally: [It is to die by faith, as in the present, now.]

Who are the true sheep of the Lord Jesus? Who are the ones who hear his voice, to whom he gives eternal life and who will therefore never perish? It is those who follow him; those who commit themselves to him to become his disciples. The issue is one of eternity and salvation.
[Commitment means to realize that one is substituted for in living. You were substituted for in death, when He went to the Cross. You are substituted for in living by being a living sacrifice (Rom 12:1), when through faith, He lives in you.]
Together the three (deny self, take up a cross, and follow me) indicate true conversion followed by a life long sanctification (William Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary, The Gospel of Mark (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1975), p. 330).[Glorious as all of this sounds, it can be superficial! The three do not add up unto salvation unless the Key Ingredient is present in the believer. And lifelong sanctification is nonexistent as a process. That would be sanctification by self effort or that dirty word “works.”]

This scripture clearly says that one cannot become a Christian without a commitment to Christ as a disciple.[Again, commitment is by faith in His finished work, what He does, and is doing.]

etc. etc. etc...


In other words, dying to self, and doing what you think you are supposed to do can be nothing more than a work of the flesh, out of good intentions. It is not the death which we experience through faith in the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on our behalf, which leads to our realizing His resurrection life enabling us in real time, here and now.]

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Michael Harrison
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tb


Faith changes one! Works bind. I only had to read the first three paragraphs (and I will read the rest), to see where 'ol Web was coming from.

But to reiterate, Faith changes one, and all of his works will be of the Lord, every breathing moment! When the word 'works' is used, insomuch as it means 'obedience' to some, it (or they) cometh not of faith, but toil.

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Toil implies that it is of self effort, and motivation to please God. Cain did that (no doubt thinking he was being obedient)!

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TB125
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Here is an excellent article that clarifies the relationship between one's belief in Jesus and his or her commitment to him in obedient discipleship. I think that the author covers the issues that have been mentioned on this tread, and he cites a lot of Scriptures in the statement on "Salvation". The title of the article is "Lordship Salvation", and the author is William Webster. It can be found here: http://www.christiantruth.com/lordshipsalvation.html It is a long article, but well worth one's careful reading. Check it out.

--------------------
Bob

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Michael what you are doing is trying to take mans free will out of the equation of Salvation and it can not be done.

becausehelives, your will is free to surrender,


|Surrendered is a state of faith. It is a posture, a belief, an understanding. Above all of that, it is a gift which one can experience because He has made it possible to 'rest' in it.

'Least' - is surrendered will.

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Michael Harrison
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It is hard to exhort and convince the gainsayer when they think that they already know. This is the very reason why scripture's number one priority behind loving the Lord thy God with all of thine heart, is to humble one's self. Else, one may be pompous in their understanding, and miss the heart of God. This is what grieves Him.

Not pikin on ya becausely. It is just a general statement.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Yahshua has done His part, he declared it is finished, My part He said is done, now you who will follow my example take up your cross and do like wise.
"It is finished." You do not add to it. You cannot. You do not need to. To take up your cross is....

"The least shall be the greatest!" Does this mean that the janitor is above the executive, or the child greater than the adult? No! The least is he who is yielded to Him, until there is only the Will of God working on Earth in the man, as in Heaven, not the sinful man living(who abides in unbelief that he is dead). (Reckon yourselves dead! Rom6:11) When the sinful man is diminished, it is because he understands how the cross functions. He know how it applies.
It means that he is out of the way, not interfering with the will and work of God. The least does not exist so that our God may be increased!

Exactly what interferes with the will and work of God, is doing what one thinks will further the Kingdom, which one conceives of out of a carnal mindset that he doesn't recognize of himself as such. It is not being 'least'. It is self. It trumps the Lord completely (and all scripture applies to this). It crowds Him out. It is self assertion in the name of heaven's good. It is blind obedience that is not obedience. It is the sin of the flesh.

The one is not really 'dead', while HE is trying to please God, because that is not how one pleases God.

When Jesus said "It is done," it doesn't mean that He (or it) stopped there. It means that it is eternally done, and "HE" is doing it. This is our salvation. This is our "REST." If we are diminished by the cross, we will then see Him working. We follow in the footsteps of the 'doer'. Thereby we live by him who IS, and is our life.

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becauseHElives
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i have read what you say all the way through, and I just read through the whole thing again.

Michael what you are doing is trying to take mans free will out of the equation of Salvation and it can not be done.

Yahshua has done His part, he declared it is finished, My part He said is done, now you who will follow my example take up your cross and do like wise. I will send you the Holy Spirit and He will lead you and guide you, He will endue you with power from on high, that you can do all you have seen me do.

Go and do as I have commanded,

Yahshua did not say go and have what I commanded...

He said go and do as I have commanded....

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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Perpetual observance of Jesus - the Sabbath!

No one read what I said. Each read at it, and when they found something that pricked them, they launched. [Wink] Well, that's ok! You don't have to answer to me! But if this is called as a testimony against you....

Paul said, "In the day when the secrets of men are judged by my gospel." Think ye that ye have understood him? Lemme exhort thee to look again.

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becauseHElives
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Michael, Jesus/Yahshua is not just the Sabbath He is all in all....

but Yahshua did not do away with the Sabbath that the scriptures declare will be perpetual in observance throughout Eternity.

and having and doing are just words....

If one is in Yahshua, they are doing (obeying)Yahweh's Commandments....

that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes, but it does mean they are genuinely sensitive to the heart of the Heavenly Father, to the promptings of the Holy Spirit to bring correction.

not one Saint still in this flesh has been perfected, only those that have put on immortality are perfected.

the Apostle Paul was still reaching for the prize till his death...

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

I'm pressing toward the same goal as Paul...

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Keith
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quote:
“Thank you for agreeing ke. Trying is failure. Receiving is life! To take up your cross is to admit your failure, and to cease to be. This is known as being 'dead'. Being raised with Him from the dead, is to live unto Him, which means by Him, and He isn't a failure. Moreover, He is my life. Is that a good thang, or what!”
We have always agreed on this point. I have not argued it with you. Christ is the only human since the fall that has ever fulfilled the law, and the only one that ever will. What is the gospel but Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Christ came to fulfill the law, and to enable the law to be fulfilled within us, which is Christ in us through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. Christ’s act of fulfilling the law, did not do away with any part of the law, but rather established it. His fulfilling of the law included keeping all the commandments of God, including the fourth. If therefore, the object of His life is to bring about the fulfillment of the law of God within the believer according to His perfect example, this will of course include the observance of the fourth commandment. This is biblical teaching. It is not what you are teaching.


Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the law of God perfectly. He did not do this so that the law of God could be done away with, or changed in any way. To the contrary, He did it so that the law of God could be fulfilled within all those who put their faith and trust in Him also. This is what the bible teaches. When Christ was here as one of us fulfilling the law, He kept the seventh day Sabbath, and taught about it’s proper observance. Those who wish to be like their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will do likewise.

quote:
“Even the devil knows scripture and can use it to his understanding. There is understanding, then there it HIS understanding. Suscribe to His understanding, to live. One's own will not do.”
I take it that you are saying that your understanding is His, and mine is not. Of course I disagree. You are right though, about the devil knowing scripture. The bottom line is this, one of us is lying. Though it may not be intentional, it is certainly not motivated by the one above, but rather by the one below, who is the father of lies.

quote:
Be careful as to whom you believe that this applies:
2 Pet 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

It applies to those who would use Paul's writings to twist the truth to their own ends, as I firmly believe you are doing.

quote:
Are you sure enough of yourself concerning facing judgment?
I am not sure of myself at all, but I am sure of the word of God. I do not fear judgment at all, perfect love casts out fear.

I Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us.

My Christian experience has never been about self preservation, being saved. I found the truth, and fell in love with it. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. I do not fear God. I know that His judgment is true and righteous, and I can trust that what ever decision He makes for me, it is the right one.

When I say that I do not fear God, I do not mean that I do not respect Him, I only mean that I do not have to be afraid of God. He has proven through His Son that He is for me, not against me, or anyone else for that matter. He is pure, and righteous, and holy, and awesome, and His final decision for each and everyone of us will be the same. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that there is no other name under heaven or earth whereby we must be saved. Thus according to the word of God I am assured salvation. Nevertheless, I accept the judgment of Him alone who is worthy of our praise, and all honor and glory, no matter what it is.
For there are many who will think they belong to Him, but do not.


Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Yur quote!
quote:
I Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

|Why do you sin? The Son of God is manifested to destroy the works of the devil. Why prevent Him from doing so? Would that not be sin?
Gal 2:18 "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

quote:
This one goes to show that anyone can quote scripture:
quote:
Christ never said one word about the fact that because He was fulfilling the law, He was therefore fulfilling the Sabbath , and it should no longer be observed. To the contrary, He both observed it, and taught it’s proper observance. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, for the law is spiritual.

|Even the devil knows scripture and can use it to his understanding. There is understanding, then there it HIS understanding. Suscribe to His understanding, to live. One's own will not do.

|Jesus Himself said the “He is Lord of the Sabbath.” Moreover, as He who fulfills the law:

Heb 2:8 "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

|He fulfills the law and all things are put in subjection to Him. He is the 'rest' of God, the end of struggle, striving, work. He is the provision that the Sabbath forshadows. HE IS all sufficient! He is the end of the curse of Adam, wherein Adam was told that he would till the ground by the sweat of his brow. He is the second Adam - redeemer.

quote:
Be careful as to whom you believe that this applies:
quote:
2 Pet 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Are you sure enough of yourself concerning facing judgment?




Everyone reads 'at' the posts, the same way they read scripture, comparing with their own understanding, rather than letting the mind be taught by the Spirit. Judgment, rather than redemption, will be theirs.

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Michael Harrison
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Thank you for agreeing ke. Trying is failure. Receiving is life! To take up your cross is to admit your failure, and to cease to be. This is known as being 'dead'. Being raised with Him from the dead, is to live unto Him, which means by Him, and He isn't a failure. Moreover, He is my life. Is that a good thang, or what! [happyhappy] Nothing that you think that you can 'do', that you understand to be His commandments, are you able to do. He is however.

Find out from Him how to 'keep' His commandments. Clearly you cannot keep them, or you wouldn't need a Savior. Find out what you are missing about this. He doesn't say try, and nevertheless fail, to keep the commandments, and Jesus will do the rest. He expects them to be kept, and you cannot do it by trying.

People who believe in their heart that they please God - are lost! There is nothing to discuss with them. They have cast their lot with the Pharisees.

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Keith
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Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matt 16:224 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Matt 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Matt 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Matt 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

1 Pet 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

The life of Christ is our perfect example to follow. Those who will not follow Him, are none of His. He came here not to do His own will, but the will of His Father who sent Him.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Our Lord and Savior kept the seventh day Sabbath. He not only kept it, but spent not just a little time teaching it’s proper observance to those who had made it a burden. Will you follow His example or not?
Do you think that because Christ fulfilled the law, now we shouldn’t do what He did as our perfect example?

Jesus Christ came to do His Fathers will in our human fallen flesh. This was not so that we would not have to do His Fathers will, but in order that we also should be able to do His Fathers will. This is the problem that the gospel addresses, that is, humanities disobedience to God. Christ’s eternal purpose is to bring all things back into willing and loving subjection to God.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all………………………………..............................
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Christ never said one word about the fact that because He was fulfilling the law, He was therefore fulfilling the Sabbath , and it should no longer be observed. To the contrary, He both observed it, and taught it’s proper observance. It is the carnal mind that is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, for the law is spiritual.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here is what Christ said about the law.

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Do you want to be called least in the kingdom of heaven? You do twist, and mutilate the scriptures to your own end. Peter spoke of this very thing.

2 Pet 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here is some more Jesus said about the commandments.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

If we keep the commandments as Jesus kept His Fathers commandments, we shall abide in His love. Jesus kept the fourth commandment. Those who wish to abide in the Father and Son’s love, will also.

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Carol Swenson
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Nite Michael. Sleep well. [zzzzzz]
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Michael Harrison
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[Cross] . [Cross] . [Cross]

As a reminder, they accused Paul of being self absorbed. It was a cop out from facing their Lord to serve Him in gladness.

[Prayer] . [Prayer] . [Prayer]

[crying] I'm good! G'nite all!

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[Cross]

Doing vs. having: He IS, therefore I have. It is finished. DONE! Blessed be the name of the Lord who giveth us the victory!

Trying is failure! [angel3]

[Cross]

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Carol Swenson
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Sooooooooo, son, [Big Grin] are you trying to get the victory?
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Michael Harrison
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Tis more than peace little one. Tis the gift of the exalted one - the gift of Himself, our hiding place, our shield, our preservation.

While I am at it, here, in other words, is anothers expression of the revelation of the rest of God:

I know how you feel, you want to get busy and bring about the work's of God in your life and in the life of others, but look at the words of Jesus... John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The apostles wanted to work the works of God also, but Jesus said the work is believing in Christ, because the work is finished! IT IS ALL DONE IN THE WORK OF CHRIST!!! You no longer need to try to get the victory, you have the victory in Christ! You now need to work at believing it. You no longer need to try to get deliverance from sin, you have it in Christ! You now need to work at believing it. You no longer need to try to get healing, you have it in Christ! You now need to work at believing it. You no longer need to try to get strength , you have it in Christ! You now need to work at believing it. Doesn't the word say we have the victory, and that we are delivered, and that by his stripes we are healed, and let the weak say I'm strong? Well that's because we have all of these in Christ and all we need to do is labor to believe this fact.

Cirest (Author)

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Carol Swenson
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Rest is peace. Rest Michael.
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Michael Harrison
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And this shouts:
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.


So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Heb 3:11
|That generation passed w/o entering the good land.

|And they entered not in because of what? U N B E L I E F> A stone cold self-assured heart of higher knowledge, that completely missed the mark that He had them aiming for.

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Michael Harrison
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Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

|How, but by a stony self serving heart? Who do you think that he was talking about here? Whom after all was he addressing?

|Then he talks about what happens to those who drink of the Holy Spirit:
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

|But those who do not go where?

Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

|So he says:
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This is a wake up call! Persist in loving darkness and making futile arguements. He is not slack concerning this.

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Michael Harrison
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Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 15:37 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
Num 15:40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.

Enter the rest of God!

Num 15:41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

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Michael Harrison
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Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do,


....if God permit.

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Michael Harrison
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Regardless of when the Sabbath began, it was part of the law, and was a type and shadow of 'One' to come.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Here is the exhortation: This was spoken by Paul (most assume) to the Hebrew 'believers.' The message is self explanatory: Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any should seem to come short of it.

Does one come short of it??? What, after all does it mean? What purpose is there in saying this if there is no such provision. The Apostle is adamant that the recipient of the message heed the call.

He pulled no punches here either:

Heb 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are so dull of hearing.
Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers [ye suppose yourself to be], ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

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Keith
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Gen 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

The seventh day was blessed and sanctified at creation. If, as some suggest, the law was not given until the Jews received it from the mouth and finger of God at the mount, then the Sabbath predates the law. This would be why the commandment says remember the Sabbath. What do you say Michael? Was the law first given at the mountain? If so, how can you claim that the Sabbath is just part of the law, and fulfilled in Christ, when in fact, the Sabbath predates the law?

Regardless of your answer to the above, the Sabbath was instituted in a sinless world. That is to say, the Sabbath was blessed and sanctified before humanity had fallen in sin. The rest that you are always speaking of is connected with fallen humanities need for a Savior, and forgiveness of their sins. If, as you suggest, the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ, and no longer needs to be observed, then why was the day given to Adam and Eve while they were still sinless before God?

God is certainly without sin, and He rested on the seventh day, and blessed and sanctified it. Adam and Eve were also without sin when this took place. If those who are now in Christ need no longer keep the Sabbath because they are no longer in sin, then why did God give the Sabbath to those who were sinless? Those who had no need of a Savior, as obviously God also has no need of a Savior. Apparently your definition of resting in Christ is lacking. You think only sinners need to rest in God through Christ, but this is not biblical. The Sabbath rest was given to the world before there ever was a sinner in it. This is why we will still be keeping the Sabbath even in heaven.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


It seems kind of silly that God should give the Sabbath to be observed by those who were sinless, then take it away from those who have been saved from sin, then re-establish it again, when all are again sinless. It is not biblical, and it is not true.

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Michael Harrison
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1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [He does the ‘doing’ part. All that you do is believe. “Well,” you say, isn’t that doing? No! It is not.

Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. ]

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

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Michael Harrison
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As long as you think that you add to Him in what you 'do', you fail of the grace of God.

Perhaps you might read the post immediately before yours to focus on some individual ponderances:

[Heb 9:9 Paraphrase] Which was an illustration in their day, wherein both gifts and sacrifices were offered that were nevertheless unable to make he who performed the duty perfect as pertaining to the conscience.(Which includes those for whom he was doing it.)

You should also read where the faith of some were overthrown by those who refused to follow the truth.

How do you have a 'good conscience' towards God if you abide in sinning?

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Michael Harrison
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If you would read scripture the way it is written, you would not be confused about this.
If you believe that you are condemned to abide in a constant state of sin, you make God a liar. Your unbelief justifies your attitude to yourself in the sight of men and enables your virulent attitude towards what is shared to the undoing of many, in supposing me to be aloof in this matter. It is quite the opposite, but behold how the spirit of the world opposes the word of God in the pride of life, lust of the eye, and of the flesh.

When you say:
quote:
That is really a lofty position to claim for yourself
It is not something that I 'do' that I can take credit for. So how then do you accuse me as though I am claiming a position for myself. I simply praise Him for His word. He is the word who sanctifies.
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TB125
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Michael,
I think that you have finally clearly answered this question that I addressed to you on April 11th:
quote:
When a person has Jesus, as you have described one's relationship with Jesus as "having" him, is such a person no longer able to disobey Jesus or to "sin" against God?

You make this statement in your post on April 12th at 5:07 PM in your discussion with Isaiah:
quote:
Jesus is your provision. If you do what He is not doing, you transgress Him. If you do not do what He is doing, the same. But He enables the believer to accomplish His will, which means not sinning , as well as to minister Him.

Since you obviously believe that you "have" Jesus, you also apparently believe very strongly that you do not seek to "do" what "he is not doing" and you do not "do what He is doing". Apparently you believe that you are living in a relationship with Jesus in which you are not "sinning". That is really a lofty position to claim for yourself, but it clarifies your attitude toward some of us who try to share in these discussions with you. Thanks for clarifying your belief regarding this matter with me.

--------------------
Bob

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Michael Harrison
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Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Which was an illustration in their day, wherein both gifts and sacrifices were offered that were nevertheless unable to make he who performed the duty perfect as pertaining to the conscience.


Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

[Heb 9:9 Paraphrase] Which was an illustration in their day, wherein both gifts and sacrifices were offered that were nevertheless unable to make he who performed the duty perfect as pertaining to the conscience.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

A purged conscience! A clean conscience! If ye have this, why, as they did in the Charismatic Lutheran Church where I attended when I was a baby Christian, perpetually go to the alter with a "broken and contrite heart, which He will not ignore," (according to the regularly incanted liturgy) to repent if you have found this place in Him? (Which exists for the benefit of the relationship of the believer with His master!)

There is a place of rest in Christ, of a clean conscience, and freedom from the folly of good intentions which do not yield eternal spiritual fruit. It is not the automatic experience of the believer. He has to seek for it. Most believers are in defeat, not understanding this, when not in their heart, giving place to Him to be in total control, thereby giving Him first place, wherein one, by this, can measure every action, whether it be of Him, thereby circumventing 'doing' by the flesh rather than by the Spirit of the Living God!

"Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh," which can in fact even be the things that seem good of themselves.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
If you should say the above speaks of Jesus Christ or Joshua(Jesus and Joshua being the same word), it says he did NOT give them rest -but spoke of another day later on.
This is the later on. Believe to enter. [Roll Eyes] Pass not up the gift and provision of God. He has your very best intrest at heart.


So we see that:

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Heb 4:3 For we who have believed enter [not have entered!] that rest, as he has said, As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest, although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Isy. When the passage says "For we who have believed," it does not mean 'who have believed in Christ,' as a reader would have it. For the believer just because he has believed in the Lord, has not entered into His rest. It means that they who have believed in His rest,specifically, do enter.

'For we who have believed unto that rest have entered that rest.' This is the provision of our God, and completely expected of every believer.

Clearly! Right here it says now that you are a believer, labor to enter that rest. It does not state that you already have.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall [fail]after the same example of unbelief.

The opportunity to enter His rest was available to them in Moses day, but they did not have faith to. The same is true for the redeemed this very hour. They are not automatically there by being the redeemed. They must discover what it is. It takes faith to discover this. It takes stepping out in it.

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Michael Harrison
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We can discuss Romans if you like! [Smile] I gotta cook. Ahl be Bach!
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Michael Harrison
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Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. [ [Cross] This does not say blessed is the man who fails.]

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. [How? By believing in the saving power, and deliverance that He shed His blood for us to have.]


Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. [ [Cross] This can only be from a starting position of victory. Because otherwise, one is guilty of being under a pile of sin, and lusts already unto it. Therefore, there must be a place of discovery which is above the frey from which one can lust and fall.]

To be a doer, and not be deceiving one's self, one must be in solidarity with Christ. One must know how to trust in His provision. Without it one is only able to trust in Himself, and that is a bankrupt investment, and in which case you are doomed and Jesus doesn't save you because you are trusting in yourself. That is the gospel fundamental.1


Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [ [Cross] Don't be deceived by the word 'doer' in these passages.]

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work,[a doer of continuing therein] this man shall be blessed in his deed.[ [Prayer] If you have looked into the perfect law of liberty, then you are free. Therefore, if you, being free, indulge in sad behavior, you are not being a 'doer' of the freedom you have gained. That is what he said here.]

This verse is a good followup.

1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Yes -we can be delivered from sin -we can not deliver ourselves -but we certainly must try!

You don't have to 'try'. You can be delivered from doing, whatever.

You don't have to try not to be guilty. That is the Grace of our God. It is the saving power of our God. Do we frustrate the Grace of our God?

"Whosoever shall fall upon that rock shall be broken. Upon whomsoever that rock shall fall, shall be CRUSHED." Stumble upon Him and be 'broken'.

Strive to enter the straight gate, doesn't say strive to keep the law. You cannot enter the straight gate by keeping the law if you cannot keep the law. Enter the straight gate that you may abide in the law being kept for you, that you do no evil.

If you have not given Jesus your whole heart, you will not know this.

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Michael Harrison
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You do not have to refrain from doing what He does not do. That would be 'works'.

If you have to 'refrain' from murder, then you are already guilty. You don't have to be guilty. That means that you do not even have to 'think' it (much less 'do' it).

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