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Topic: Can a saved person lose salvation?
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB, are you saying you can be saved but not sealed?
no
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becauseHElives
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posted
WildB, are you saying you can be saved but not sealed?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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posted
I don't believe Simon a Sealed believer other wise the Spirit would of been grieved in his soul with the very thought of the wickedness he was being tempted with to do...
James 1
[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death
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becauseHElives
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posted
(Acts 8:13 NIV) Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
He believed. I would say he was a believer, but look at what happens a little later:
(Acts 8:18-24 NIV) [18] When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money [19] and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
[20] Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! [21] You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. [22] Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. [23] For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."
[24] Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."
Look what Peter says: 'repent of this wickedness .... perhaps he (the Lord) will forgive you.'
Once Saved Always Saved teaches that all our sins 'past, present and future' are forgiven at the moment of salvation.
If so then this passage is meaningless. Simon seems to have taken what Peter said pretty seriously.
You can try to say that Simon was never a true believer, but if that is true, then why did the Holy Spirit have Luke include the verse about him believing and being baptized? No, I think we can be sure that he was a true believer, but that he was pulled away by his own evil desires and greed.
Why do we teach people that once they have placed faith in Yahshua nothing else matters? That their sins are already forgiven and nothing they do, or believe or fail to believe from that point on matters? We are risking sending people to hell for eternity because we don't bother to read the Bible and accept what it says at face value.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Indeed jimbarn, playing God requires us to be on the throne of our own heart. Pontification is the net result of that. The throne of our own heart is for one only. You know who that is. Blessed is he who realizes, and abdicates the throne.
To God be the Glory in Jesus name, world without end, Amen!
When we are not on the throne of our own heart, we will not speak of ourselves, but from Him.
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jimbarn
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posted
I have been following the exchanges on this posting.
I was excoriated for the orginal post.
Please note the thought and ideas,not to mention scripture for any to read,that were drawn forth here.
Playful? NOT!
Orginal thought,some.
I have learned from this,I hope others have also.
I learned some time back that there is a God,and I am not Him!
Thank you all for allowing me the chance to participate.
Jimbarn
Still a recovering pharisee ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
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Good NewsforAll
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by jimbarn:
I never meant to mislead anyone.
This thread is "Exposing False Teaching"
I was looking for false teaching, in order to address the subject.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) No it is titled "Can a saved person lose salvation."
Many will try to say that such people weren't saved in the first place.
Hebrews 6: 4 For it is impossible to BRING BACK to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—6 and WHO THEN TURN AWAY FROM GOD. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.
This isn't talking about the regular type of believer who slips and falls once in awhile, but rather is talking about the person who deliberately turns their back on God. Their heart becomes so hardened that they are incapable of asking for forgiveness.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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becauseHElives
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posted
"How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation?" Hebrews 2:3
Escape what?
The Apostle Paul's question inspired by the Holy Spirit has 2 profound implications!
first you can not neglect what you do not have. That being the subject of the question "Salvation".
second there is great concern for those that believe "Once saved always saved" because if "Salvation is neglected in the life of the believer how can they escape the consequences of eternal punishment?
quote:
This second chapter is closely connected with the first. The train of thought reverts to the fact that God had anciently spoken to their fathers by the prophets; but in these last days, by his Son--the very brightness of his own glory--the Upholder of all things, shown all through the Bible to be higher than angels, through whose ministrations also, the divine word had sometimes come to mortals. Now then, since the word so revealed by angels, carried with it the sternest authority, and every sort of transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward, how shall men escape who neglect a salvation so great that even God's glorious Son is sent from heaven to earth to reveal it! He, the Exalted Son, came down to create and reveal this salvation; he wrought it out in death, confirming his divine mission while he lived, by miracles;--must it not, then be a matter of supreme importance?
Charles Finney
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
My objective is to get as many as I can to THINK. God gave us a brain to use, to use to glorify Him.
See jb, that would be 'doing' vs. 'having'.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(Jus because you are in the Navy, doesn't mean that you are a seal.) ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
Sorrry Wyldb. I had ta.
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jimbarn
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posted
My question was not meant to be playful.
This was an effort to pose a question that would invite discussion.That it did.After all, this thread is to expose false teaching.
This will be very helpful to those that come to this thread for their first few visits to this site.
Also, those who responded,and thanks to all that did,those that answered did have to think and that helped me and I'm sure each of you got something out of this excersize.
I'm sorry if some were offended. I do not intend any toward any brother.
As to the prize,just a figure of speech.(It was an excellent answer.)
My objective is to get as many as I can to THINK. God gave us a brain to use, to use to glorify Him.
Jimbarn
Still investigating
A recovering pharisee
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
But it was ok because it was playful!
As a canker sore.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
But it was ok Carol, because it was playful!
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WildB
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posted
WildB's answer is sound and it does address the second question asked in this post.
"Can one that has been forgiven stand in judgement again?"
Its a shame that a few would wan't to complicate the simplicity concerning this answer.. They think they have a Monopoly on what is All things Christ discussed on this board. They don't.
The Bible must be rightly divided. Don't be like Hymenaeus or Philetus.
2Tim.2
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God (not man), a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Michael,
Wellllllllllll, after reading "Co Abiding", I decided to remove my comment because it was not encouraging.
Let me state it in a different way.
jimbarn you don't need to test us. As Michael pointed out, what we have written is here for all to read going back years. (Years David?).
It would be better for you to simply state what you believe rather than try to test other people. No offense intended here, but deception is a device of the enemy.
(Michael, was that better?)
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
Wildb,
If I had a prize for the best(all were right on) answer, yours was on the nail. Good answer!!
jimbarn
A recovering pharisee
Welllllllllllllll....
I think this bears repeating!
quote:
Give it some fearful thought! quote:
What would your prize be worth?
2Co 10:12 "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
Believe and do what you want to. Lemme know later how it turned out. The meaning of the word 'repent' is worthless if one does not receive just reward when he or she does not.
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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Michael Harrison
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posted
That was a pretty good answer! Nevertheless it was a setup question.
Come back here Carol. That comment was in line!
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jimbarn
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posted
I never meant to mislead anyone.
This thread is "Exposing False Teaching"
I was looking for false teaching, in order to address the subject.
Also, an objective is to get some to think for themselves without depending on someone elses ideas forming their beliefs.
So I guess you could call it an excerise of the mind.Some did successfuly.
My thanks and, again, sorry if any were stessed unnessasarily.
Jimbarn
A recovering pharisee ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
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becauseHElives
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posted
The Bible is a complete book not a collection of short stories.
WildB's answer sounds good but it does not address , little things said in the scripture like...
Only those that endure till the end will be saved...
He that put his hands to the plow and turns back is not fit for the Kingdom of Yahweh...
I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
If you deny me before men I will deny you before My Father...
If you don't forgive you will not be forgiven...
there are plenty more....
Eden's post take in those other hard scriptures that challenge one like WildB's...
quote:
If someones is "forgiven" that presupposes that they "believe in Jesus". I believe that the "forgiveness" is checked by God and by the Lord Jesus at the end of one's life.
And, if God and Jesus find no more faith in Jesus in that person at the end of that person's life (ie. that person is now dead), then that person does not receive forgiveness of sins but that person is considered to be "still in his sins":
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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posted
What would your prize be worth?
2Co 10:12 "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
You have already mislead people on this board with an insincere question. Someone once said that a lie was any species of designed deception.
Believe and do what you want to. Lemme know later how it turned out. The meaning of the word 'repent' is worthless if one does not receive just reward when he or she does not.
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jimbarn
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posted
Wildb,
If I had a prize for the best(all were right on) answer, yours was on the nail. Good answer!!
jimbarn
A recovering pharisee
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Campbell:
quote:
Originally posted by jimbarn:
Can one that has been forgiven stand in judgement again?
Investigating!
A recovering pharisee!
Jimbarn
It all depends on what you believe saved to be. Some people think they are saved if they walk the aisle or are baptized. Can you shed some more light on what you think saved is?
Investigating!
A sinner who meet the Savior.
David
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Never got an answer.
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WildB
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posted
"Can one that has been forgiven stand in judgement again?"
Yes at the Bema Seat.
Bema Seat - What Is It and When Is It?
The concept of the Bema Seat comes from the ancient Olympics, where a judge would sit on the Bema Seat at the finish line. The judge's purpose was to determine what position the runners came in-first, second, and so on-and then to give out the appropriate rewards. That is the imagery behind what is known as the Bema Seat.
Also known as the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Bema Seat is described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, "If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." Your gold, silver, and costly stones are works done for the glory of God, with the right motive, and in dependence upon the power of the Holy Spirit.
There is some debate as to the exact timing of the Bema Seat. Some understand it to occur at the moment of death for each believer. Others believe the Bema Seat to occur during the end times, with all believers being judged at that time. It does not truly matter when the Bema Seat occurs. It is far more important that we be prepared for the Bema Seat.
Bema Seat - What It Isn't
The Bema Seat judgment does not determine salvation. Rather, it is when believers must give an account of their lives to Christ. It is very important to not confuse the Bema Seat with the Great White Throne judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 describe this judgment, "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." The Great White Throne is where those who do not believe in Jesus Christ are judged and condemned.
In contrast, the Bema Seat is for believers whose salvation has already been secured by faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). We should not focus on the Bema Seat as Christ judging our sins, but rather as God rewarding us according to our lives. Yes, we will surely have to give an account of our lives. Romans 14:10-12 explains, "You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God." Part of this judgment is answering for the sins we committed. At the same time, I do not think judgment is going to be the focus of the Bema Seat.
In 2 Corinthians 5:10, Paul gives the Corinthian church an illustration of the Bema Seat, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." Paul is teaching us that all Christians will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ. At the Bema Seat, Jesus Christ will bring to light every deed-good or bad-that each believer has done on earth since he or she became a Christian. Every Christian will be rewarded based on his words, deeds, and faithfulness.
http://www.allaboutgod.com/Bema-Seat.htm
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That is all.....
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Eden
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posted
Hi, jimbarn. You said[quote[Can one that has been forgiven stand in judgement again?[/quote]The way you phrased your question caused the predicament.
If someones is "forgiven" that presupposes that they "believe in Jesus". I believe that the "forgiveness" is checked by God and by the Lord Jesus at the end of one's life.
And, if God and Jesus find no more faith in Jesus in that person at the end of that person's life (ie. that person is now dead), then that person does not receive forgiveness of sins but that person is considered to be "still in his sins":
John 8:24
I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sins.
God checks a person at the END of his or her life, as well as DURING one's life. If God find faith DURING one's life, God tries to increase that faith. But the faith which will determine whether I have received eternal life or not, is whether I had faith in Jesus right into death. Only that faith really counts.
with love, eden
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Was that fair jimbarn??? By the way, I take it that you mean you are recovering from being judgmental when you say Pharisee; as in, you used to behave towards another as though they could be under judgment, but now you don't? Digame!
That debate goes on here. I am certain that one can be on the wrong side of judgment by an act of their free will, by being ensnared, veritably unrepentant and so on. Once saved always doesn't fly with me. It just doesn't. It shows no fear of God, who lets us participate with His wonderful plan of salvation. Nevertheless, without His sheparding, we would not seek Him.
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jimbarn
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posted
I am very pleased with the replies to my question.
I must, however, ask you folks forgivness.
I posed this to see what kind of responce I could get.
See, this is an area of false teaching I encounter often.
Thank you for proving this is not an issue of many here.
A recovering pharisee
Jimbarn
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by jimbarn:
Can one that has been forgiven stand in judgement again?
Investigating!
A recovering pharisee!
Jimbarn
It all depends on what you believe saved to be. Some people think they are saved if they walk the aisle or are baptized. Can you shed some more light on what you think saved is?
Investigating!
A sinner who meet the Savior.
David
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Wiersbe’s Expository Outlines on the New Testament
Why is it called GOOD NEWS ?
Justified—declared righteous in God’s sight through the merits of Christ , secure in our position in Christ before the throne of God. Justification is God’s righteousness imputed, put to our account. Sanctification is righteousness imparted, or lived out in our daily lives.
Redemption —deliverance from sin and its penalties, by the payment of a price. This price was Christ’s blood on the cross.
Propitiation —Christ’s sacrifice satisfied God’s holy law, thus making it possible for God to forgive sinners and remain just Himself. God’s justice has been satisfied; He may now look with kindness and grace upon a lost world.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
If you are worried about it, I don't think that you have anything to fear. Is buzzebeb nagging you? Do you have a nagging doubt about your relationship? Are you afraid that He is mad at you? God is love. His sacrifice on the cross is for your forgivness. Put your burden away. Rejoice and be glad! Remembering that, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
Do you wanna say, "Yea but!" Tsk! Tsk! Recognize the calling card of the evil one who wants to separate you from the love of your Father. He tells lies.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Don't remove yourself by believing satan's lies! And you are not the only one who has been through this.
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jimbarn
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posted
Can one that has been forgiven stand in judgement again?
Investigating!
A recovering pharisee!
Jimbarn
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