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Author
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Topic: Justification
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
Please note that i asked a question, out of concern for the participant. I did not make an accusation as though i was attacking him. It is very hard in a forum like this to really know what a person is like. I believe that discernment is most correct in this. I am sorry becausely, because you do not have discernment, nor are you able to understand the existance of such. Moreover i expected this kind of immediate attack from you.
You have pointed out what 'you' believe' to be heresies in my teachings. Let me illustrate that i put these truths out there for those who have ear to hear. I twist no arms. You will stand on your own before God even as it is written that every idle word will be judged. I have no fear or shame, only concern that so many are so easily deceived by their own pride and lusts, and teach others it is ok. If you read these posts carefully and deliberately, you will discover something, if your heart is true towards God as you say!
What i said that you didn't like:
quote:
Well, let's look at delivers. If you turn from sin, how do you rise above the temptation and snare? By deliverance. It is the power of a resurrected life, His, that enables you to escape sin. There is no better, in fact, no other way to escape.
Will you please explain to everyone how that you can abide in sin and call yourself 'reconciled?' If you abide in sin, you do so seperate from Christ, and the covering that you claim to have is imaginary, a gift from the angel of light that you willingly, and adamantly accept. God doesn't come to save and accept you as you are. He is the power of a resurrected life which changes you, by faith.
Please note that:
Rom 14:23 "and whatever is not of faith is sin."
Therefore the last part of this verse, in paraphrase says, all unbelief is sin!
It is not hard to 'do' what is right when you 'live by Him.' It is nearly automatic, even if challenged by the lusts of the flesh and the ability to willfully sin. But the fear of the Lord is a good thing. Coming to understand Him is better!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
I also consider you a heretic…not that it matters to you, heretics don't care about anything but the false doctrine they teach!
I have pointed out over and over inconsistencies in your made up false doctrine.
I am surprised that who ever the moderator of this topic has not band you…
Your teachings are diametrically opposed to that of scripture.
You are an intelligent man from the standpoint of human education, but from the standpoint of scripture you are very lacking in spiritual understanding.
First of all you show no understanding of the complexity of the dual nature that the born again believer experiences everyday until the day they go to meet the Lord. You make being born again a mystical magical ooh aah union, …
Instead of practical living, yielding to the Holy Spirit, a conscience decision on the part of the believer to choose the right, to avoid evil, flee the wrong.
Secondly, name calling….you called WildB…. Gay…there was no justifiable reason to insult him that way.
Next… quote:
Well, let's look at delivers. If you turn from sin, how do you rise above the temptation and snare? By deliverance. It is the power of a resurrected life, His, that enables you to escape sin. There is no better, in fact, no other way to escape.
Michael Harrison Joseph did what he knew was right, he chose to obey Yahweh, it took no special power on Joseph’s part from Yahweh, it just took a simple fear of Yahweh and the love of the Truth.
Same is true of Daniel,
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego
These men all escaped sin without the power of resurrection!
You better rethink your position MH….
James 4:6-7
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
Tis truly a small matter that i should be rejected by you Bmild. I don't reject you. I have this concern though. Looking back over these posts, I am concerned that you are gray, without the 'r'. The 'r' is for 'r' 'u'? Do you know what the scriptures say about that? Do you care? It would certainly color your vision.
You know, there are plenty of people here who would pray with you!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Bible, King James Version
Tit.3
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
quote:
So how is it that this little tiny bit of faith can move mountains? ....... is it because this little tiny bit of faith is in the right thing? (Jesus)
With love in Christ, Daniel
Yes, your faith is in His person. Yes!
Also, this tiny bit of faith example is used in the seed faith tree, that Kingdom of Heaven, baby Jesus, growing into a huge, life sustaining tree Jesus, instead of dying like the unwatered corn stalk.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Bible, King James Version
Tit.3
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
Are you from the middle ages? Will you perform the inquisition on me? Do you know what will become of those who "Held the truth in unrighteousness?" ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
I am glad for you that you are so secure Bmild, but where is the authority?
Rom 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
If you want to play church, i will have to let.
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Oh a Sonny and Shar fan....
Repent
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif) ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
Begging thine pardon. I am feeding, not feeding on.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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In the begining Adam & Eve were seed eaters. Are you saying one should not eat meat while in the process of being saved?
Meat eating came after the fall. So according to your," get back to the garden living" one must stop eating fellow garden dwellers...
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
To repent is to realize that Jesus is delivering you.
Peter talks about things that are hard to be understood (2Pe 3:16). Please note. It is not that they are not simple. They are just hard to be understood.
Have you believed unto Him, or have your sights fallen to something that He did on your behalf? What He did on your behalf was so that you could know Him. It isn't what He did on your behalf that saves, but it enables you to know Him who saves.
Do you desire this relationship with Him?
Rev 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
Rev 3:20 If any man open the door, I will come in. I will sup with Him. He will sup with me. We will commune. My joy will be full. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) Jesus
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WildB
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posted
Well Mike Ill play with you one more time.
In the begining Adam & Eve were seed eaters. Are you saying one should not eat meat while in the process of being saved?
Meat eating came after the fall. So according to your," get back to the garden living" one must stop eating fellow garden dwellers...
Rom.8
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
You do mischaracterize me mildB. I get a lot of that lately. But to quote myself:
quote:
Do you suppose that you intimidate me, mildB?
You are quite funny, and it is sad. Take for example this:
I see no attack here! In fact Bmild, you are steering away from the message using this tactic! You keep saying "that is all." Then you say "I am playing with you." Thanks for admiting it. One might not believe me if you did'nt say it yourself. If you are playing, then you are not serious.
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WildB
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posted
Well Mike you didn't answer the post. Instead attacked me as a "Ill hurt you" sort of guy.
Reposting Q~
Well Mike Ill play with you one more time.
In the begining Adam & Eve were seed eaters. Are you saying one should not eat meat while in the process of being saved?
Meat eating came after the fall. So according to your," get back to the garden living" one must stop eating fellow garden dwellers...
Rom.8
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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posted
I am only telling you what, if it is correct, the Hebrew names for the creatures reflect. He named them b4 the fall, so why then, the translation so?
NEXT ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
quote:
Repentance. The act of turning from sin and changing one's orientation from rebellion against God to acceptance of God's will and lordship.
One should contiunally ask if they have done that, not take it for granted that they have.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
quote:
Concerning meat eating, i read something that shocked me on, i think the Christian Debate site. The author said that the Hebrew names for animals reflected a carnivorous nature. Therefore it is implied that they were so before the fall. FWIW.
MH, talk about reading with the natural mind...
there was no death period before the fall of Adama and Eve, none...
no animal had ever died to be eaten by any one or any thing.
tell that to the author on the debate site
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Confusing the Doctrines of Justification and Sanctification
The Bible teaches that one is justified once they trust in Christ (through faith (Rom. 3:24-25; 4:5;5:1,l8).
Justification speaks of a legal declaration that gives one a right standing before God. It is a one time event. It involves an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.
Sanctification begins with justification - it means to separate one unto Christ's service.We are both sanctified and justified when we exercise faith in the gospel for salvation. Sanctification is a continual work of the Holy Spirit in the believer to conform us to the image of God's Son. It is the holy Spirits work to bring practical holiness and the fruit of the Spirit in ones live. This is continual process until one is taken to be with the Lord.
Glorification is the ending of the sanctification process and occurs when we get to Heaven, either by means of death, rapture, or resurrection. We are then in an eternal state and have been made righteous in our nature.
Most cults ignore the work of justification, focus on a person's sanctification, saying that it is our performance that will justify someone and clear their guilt before God. This view avoids the completed work of Christ and takes the emphasis off of grace and puts it on one's performance. They will either combine sanctification with justification or say that we have neither, that they are both a future tense like glorification.
However, the Bible states in Rom. 8:30 that we are already seated in heavenly places. It's a done deal. "those He justified, He also glorified." God always completes His work He started, he is the author and finisher of our faith.
In the International Church of Christ study book entitled "Justified" by Gordon Ferguson, chapter 4, pg. 16, he makes the mistake of confusing the justification with the sanctification process, not unlike the other cult group's mistakes and aberrant teachings.
In the first 2 parts, he summarizes the tension between works and faith in the book of James in which there is no small controversy. In part 3 A. B. C. he states the term justification occurs with confusion because of the different uses of the term which some have wrongly assumed in Gen. 15:6, that it is describing Abraham's original salvation. In part A., Ferguson admits that Scripture most often uses justification in reference to original salvation. However, this is not an absolute rule. He cites 1 Cor. 6:11, in which sanctified is used to refer to original salvation and in both Rom. 4 and James 2, justified refers to continuing salvation. In part B., Ferguson states, "We don’t know when Abraham was originally saved. When we are introduced to Abraham, he is already an obedient follower of God (Heb. 11:8)." In part C., he says: "Therefore, justification by faith is the initial and continual process (from beginning to end.) (Rom. 1:17) through which we show our faith in God by believing the facts of the Bible, trusting its promises and obeying its commands."
In using 1 Cor. 6:11, we find the origin and source of our sanctification. This is where it first begins, with our justification of one being cleared of guilt. You will never find justification as a process. It is always depicted as a one-time event. Rom. 5:1 says, "Therefore having been justified by faith". We read here that it is a past event.It is sanctification the ongoing process of the image of Christ being formed in the believer that is a on going event until one is taken home either by the rapture or death.
Paul writes in Romans 4 and relates it to Gen. 15, that Abraham was justified 19 years before the event of his obedience to sacrifice his son. Nowhere are works applied to Abraham's grounds of justification before God.
Paul and James are discussing two different concerns. Looking more carefully this so-called tension is resolved. Paul discusses theologically how a sinner is considered righteous before God. James is concerned with what kind of faith results in salvation, since he is addressing a particular problem that has arisen in the Jerusalem church. If one has no works springing out of their confession of belief is this true faith? Can it be saving faith? Works wrought in Christ flow from a living source. We are not doing good works to be created in Christ, which is what this would be if justification is an ongoing process related to one's deeds. We are doing good works because we are already "in Christ". We are new creations, so what follows is the fruit of the Spirit occurring sometime in a Christian's life. Naturally speaking, some trees take longer to produce fruit than other trees, but a good tree will always yield some good fruit. A farmer summarizes a good tree by its yield throughout its lifetime, not by one or two years. (Matt. 13 - 100 fold, 60, 30). One's works declare and manifest outwardly the reality of faith which is not visible to man. The fruit that a tree bears shows it is alive, healthy and productive. The fruit of a tree is not what makes a tree alive. Spiritually, faith is alive first, then proceeds the good works, showing what is invisible on the inside, outwardly.
We read in James 2:21, "Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works when he offered Isaac, his son, on the altar?"
In what sense was he justified since he was already pronounced right before God years prior to this? James is saying, in contrast to Paul, that God was able to see that Abraham was righteous already, but until Abraham lifted his knife over Isaac in obedience, only God knew his righteousness. One event occurred before God who alone knows our hearts, and the other is before man who can only perceive the outward actions. In other words, our faith is invisible and can only be expressed outwardly by our works. This is the point that James is trying to emphasize, we show our faith by our deeds to our fellow man.
Our works justify the believer in the demonstrative sense, not in the procurative sense, meaning good works are not the grounds for our legal justification before God. They justify us before the eyes of man, demonstrating what is alive on the inside. When James says faith without works is dead, he is warning against a "words only" intellectual ascent to faith. James is not speaking about the theological aspect of justification before God, but the practical aspect before man. God alone looks at the heart but by works man is justified before other men, who can only look at the outward appearance.
Justification
finds its ground - Christ's righteousness (Rom. 3:24-26 The means is by - faith (Rom. 5:1, 4-5 The evidence is shown by - good works (James 2:24)
True faith, living faith will express itself outwardly by good works.
Paul states in Rom. 4:2, "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say?" This is a good question. Let’s look at the answer. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.
If we go to Gen. 4:10, we find that Abraham was justified before he was circumcised. This all occurred before his son Isaac was born so he had the righteousness that God gives by faith only. In Romans 4:23-25 we read, "Now it is not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him, but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification." It's not baptism or works that justify us, but by faith, our works are all acts of faith, which one must have beforehand in order to do them.
We see, biblically, that our faith is alive before our baptism. In the act of baptism, and after baptism, in our works. Works flow out of a true faith. When we say we receive salvation by faith alone it is referring to being the only conduit to the grace of God. We are saved by faith alone but it is not alone - it is accompanied by works. Like nightfall follows daylight, so should our faith be followed by works. Our works have no merit before God for salvation, however, we are created in Christ to do good works. Faith is the active principle in every aspect of one's Christian life. Romans 14:23 says, "Whatever is not of faith is sin, therefore all is by faith." The Bible never condemns faith alone but a faith that is dead, an empty profession. Its inward deadness is demonstrated by its lack of outward life. Faith that is not alive, without works, that faith is not saving faith.
It is clear through the example of Abraham's life that the works spoken of in James justify the believer in the demonstrative sense only. Christ's work justifies in the procuring sense. The Savior is a person and it is His work that one must believe in to be justified (legally declared righteous). We are not justified before God from what we do. One's own works, baptism, obedience, or prayer will not justify anyone. It is God’s grace through faith, it is a gift.
When sanctification and justification are confused, it robs from someone the sure foundation which they are to build on. Since Christ is the sure foundation and there is no other, we must build on His finished work or else our works are not wrought in Christ.
Scriptures that show faith is needed for Justification
Romans 3:26 "To demonstrate at the present time His righteousness that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is the boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith, therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds (works) of the law."
Acts 13:39 "And by Him (Christ) everyone who believes is justified from all things by which you could not be justified by the law of Moses."
Gal. 5:4 "You who would be justified by the law (obedience and works) you have fallen away from grace." (Gal 2:16, 21, 3:10,12)
Rom. 5:1 'Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." This is past tense which gives us the access to God presence.
Rom. 5:9 'We are justified by His blood." But we are also sanctified the same way, Heb. 13:12 "Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood." This means we were set apart not by what we do but by what he did.
The New Testament unanimously speaks of justification in the work of God and is given to those who believe not to those who work. Just as sanctification is done through the work of the Holy Spirit not by our own hands. It begins at the same time we are justified and it is applied to us by his blood as in Heb.13:12 states Jesus "...that he might sanctify the people with his blood..." All stems from the work of God otherwise one is practicing the insufficiency of Christ, and their own works as a necessary element to their salvation.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
Advanced Member
Member # 2917
posted December 04, 2007 08:07 AM
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Well Mike Ill play with you one more time.
In the begining Adam & Eve were seed eaters. Are you saying one should not eat meat while in the process of being saved?
Do you suppose that you intimidate me, mildB?
You are quite funny, and it is sad. Take for example this:
quote:
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
You don't read! You don't turn it over in the light. You pre-interpret using carnal understanding, as so many, so that when the word goes in, it gets conformed to what you want to believe about it. If you pay close attention to the above verse, it says we are waiting for the redemption of our body. Period. Not our redemption per se, spirit and soul. Redemption of our body will be the final chapter, the close.
Don't be stoned i.e. useless to the Lord because you think that you have His respect, because you contribute something. Scripture says that the Spirit will guide you in all truth. How can he if you run interference, and will not tune into Him? I don't care if you claim to be full to the fullest of the Spirit of God. There is a natural understanding, and there is a spiritual one, coexistant in one believer. I am glad that you are not in charge of my salvation for me. Sad, truly sad that day would be! We would both lose our reward.
Concerning meat eating, i read something that shocked me on, i think the Christian Debate site. The author said that the Hebrew names for animals reflected a carnivorous nature. Therefore it is implied that they were so before the fall. FWIW.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross;
Well, you gave me a lot of stuff to work with on that post. I get tired just thinking about it, so i am not going to touch anything but this one qouted above and say: It is never past tense. It is what Jesus did on the Cross and is doing in us even now. It is so simple, yet the upright will never find it. Humble yourself as a child and learn. "Take my yoke and learn of me."
People stand against the message. They believe heartily in something that they believe that they somehow contribute to, because they feel justified in it. So they feel justified in His sight supposing that He respects them and their contribution. They do contribute nothing, except to repent and believe unto receiving the life of God in Christ Jesus, and to walk therein. Because their contribution (righteousness) is as a smelly rag. The bottom line is that they pat themselves on the back because they justify themselves by their actions, their scripture knowledge, their good intentions etc. saying, "Ain't i right God, what a good day it is!" But i would spare you. Humble yourself.
1Co 4:7 "For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"
Joh 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
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becauseHElives
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posted
Amen WildB that same scripture came to me last night when I read MH's post.
Also Adam and Eve saw Yahweh face to face while in the garden. Their relationship to the Heavenly Father was much different than the one a Born Again believer has now under the Blood covenant.
The Christian today is much more like a developing baby in the womb waiting to come out of the womb of the Church and be held physically by our Father than just hear His voice through the walls of the abdomen.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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posted
Well Mike Ill play with you one more time.
In the begining Adam & Eve were seed eaters. Are you saying one should not eat meat while in the process of being saved?
Meat eating came after the fall. So according to your," get back to the garden living" one must stop eating fellow garden dwellers...
Rom.8
[22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.[23] And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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posted
Verses showing justification by faith.
Justification is the legal act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his or her sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless.
This declaration of righteousness is being justified before God. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus, "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9)
where Jesus was crucified, died, was buried, and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4).
God imputes (reckons to our account) the righteousness of Christ. At the same time our sins were imputed to Christ when he was on the cross. That is why it says in 1 Pet. 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
Also, 2 Cor. 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." Additionally, we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) apart from works of the Law (Rom. 3:28).
To be saved means that God has delivered us (saved us) from His righteous wrathful judgment due us because of our sins against Him. It means that we will not be judged for our sins and be sentenced to eternal damnation. To be saved means that we are justified before God. Only Christians are saved. Only Christians are justified. The issue at hand is whether or not this salvation, this justification, is attained by faith or by faith and something else.
Following is a list of verses that show that salvation/justification is by faith. Bold references are particularly pointed.
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
Rom. 3:22, "even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction."
Rom. 3:24, "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"
Rom. 3:26, "for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:3, "For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,"
Rom. 4:16, "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 9:33, "just as it is written, “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:8, "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations shall be blessed in you."
Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 1:13, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."
James 2:24, not by faith alone
The scriptures clearly teach that we are saved (justified) by faith in Christ and what He has done on the cross. This faith alone saves us. However, we cannot stop here without addressing what James says in James 2:24, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
There is no contradiction. All you need to do is look at the context. James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us to not show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.
James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14). In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement. It is empty of life and action.
He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that that type of faith isn't much different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that is words followed by actions. He writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.
In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul uses to support the teaching of justification by faith in Rom. 4:3. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.
Conclusion
Justification is by faith. True faith is God's work (John 6:28-29), granted by God (John 1:29), and is concurrent with regeneration (2 Cor. 5:17), which God works in us by his will (John 1:13). This result of this justification and regeneration is that the sinner turns from his sin and towards doing good works. But it is not these works that earn our place with God nor sustain it. Jesus accomplished all that we need to be saved and stay saved on the cross. All that we need, we have in Jesus. All we need to do to be saved, to be justified, is to truly believe in what God has done for us in Jesus on the cross; this is why the Bible says we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1). This true belief with justification before God and regeneration in the new believer, results in good works.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
That is all.....
Quite Biblical! Jesus restores us to the relationship that Adam and Eve had in the garden - fellowship with God! Otherwise your faith is in vain.
1Co 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
1Pe 1:4 "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you," ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Heaven doesn't wait until you die. Jesus says, "The Kingdom of Heaven cometh not with observation." Best to look for it now. It may be too late if you cross the River Jordan, but didn't understand while here.
Moreover, the Kingdom of Heaven is a person - Jesus, the Word of God. Get n, or b out! Abide in or suffer the indignity of being wrong.
Luk 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
This doesn't imply something future tense. When judgment day comes, when you show Him your credentials, will you have understood them correctly? Of course you will have a concept, or belief, but will it be right? Mit Romney, in defending whether his faith was Christian, on the news tonight, said that he had a philosophy of faith that was just like theirs. Well, i'm so sorry Mit, mine is not a philosophy, or I might as well go back to the old ways.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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First person, “It rained last night, but it didn’t do anything.”
Second person, “I thought you said that it didn’t do anything! You just said that it rained.”
First person, “Of course I did. It rained but there was no accumulation, so it didn’t do anything.”
Second person, “But you said that it didn’t do anything, yet it rained.”
This is the argument? If it didn’t amount to anything, why make a case out of it? Our doing is like that. Of course we do something in our walk, however, not much considering. Ours is the simple part. We have some small part in participation, which allows us to cooperate with Him, but we don’t do anything! How simple. We have what He is doing, and we follow after Him like children.
What are you looking for in a relationship with the Lord? Most, it seems, are looking for what they can have financially. That’s distressing. What’s hardest about that is that we are teaching this stuff to the rest of the world, via our satellites. Anyway, this dissertation is not about that. Otherwise, without exception everybody can safely be said to be wanting to please God, looking for what they can do to further the Kingdom. The Lord knows that we want to please Him, but we try to please Him by doing, thinking we are so very Christian adult in so doing; but the way to please Him is by discovering, and childlike having. His hands are tied as long as we act like adults.
He paid a very high price for you to have salvation, gifts, and endearment to Him. He made a terrible sacrifice in order for you to have joy, and amazement as He adds to the church. He longs to pour out His Spirit, and reach lost souls, but not unlike an outfielder running after a ball that is knocked completely out of the park, so do we labor. The hardest part though, is that it is as though we are somehow on the wrong team, on the wrong side of the home plate, chasing a ball that cannot even be reached. It’s a good thing that we can’t reach it if we are on the wrong side.
In Numbers 15:32 we have a picture of a man who sinned against the Sabbath. In the Old Testament days after Moses, they were under the Law of doing; and they sanctified themselves by doing the law, doing the things written in the law, keeping of the law. In doing all of this, God recognized them as sanctified. He honored their being sanctified if they would do all that was written in the law, so that He could then dwell among them. What is meant in the heavenly patterns one could do a great study on. I have no doubt. It meant something in the heavenly patterns, if we could discover it. In any case, the basic point is that they accomplished something for their sanctification unto the Lord by doing these things, whether we understand how or not.
The law said to “Remember the Sabbath, to keep it Holy.” The one day was set aside as a day of rest. It must have been hard to do, this day of rest. Someone erred. It cost them dearly.
This illustration was looking ahead to the age of grace when Jesus will have died for our sins as the total sacrifice, and will have put away the law of doing, to the end that we would be sanctified in a new, and living way. They could not imagine in their day, the grace that would come to us. If they could have, they would have staggered at it, even more at our abysmal appropriation of it, don’t you think? Don’t you feel sorry that they couldn’t know? Yet we have this, and cannot reap it we are so dull.
The Sabbath represents Jesus. Jesus is the Sabbath Rest of God. That means something: Sabbath Rest! You have to think about it. You don’t rest by laboring, working. I don’t know anyone that believes that though. They make this big ordeal about working. They claim it’s something about obedience. If they are not doing something, they feel guilty, like they are going to be judged if they don’t. Moreover, they sternly tell me to straighten up. I’m way off track! Woah brother. Don’t be so sure.
I have learned, sometimes you have to bend to look at the most preposterous thing, rather than snuff it. God uses the foolish things, the base things to confound the wise. I’m glad to be a foolish thing.
What this man’s picking up of sticks on the Sabbath represented was the transgression of grace and the provision of God. He didn’t rest in his weeks work (as God did from His). He got stoned for it. He died! He broke the law, did what wasn’t necessary, flying in the face of God’s provision, and saying that it wasn’t enough, or it wasn’t crafted properly.
It didn’t work out very well. Ouch!
That is a picture of our lives today. Stoned! Do you know what that means? Think about it. When we think of stoned, we think of drugs, or alcohol. So did you ever wonder where that expression came from? It means dead. If you are stoned, you are as good as dead. You are useless. I know many a woman has said that to their man, at least in the Hollywood version.
If you think about it, you are potentially no good for the task at hand if you are stoned. I mean, can you drive? Should you? This is what happens to us in the Lord also. If we pick up sticks, we defeat Him, therefore ourselves. That is what it is about. If Jesus is the Sabbath Rest, and we labor, as it were, apart from Him in our zeal, we transgress. If we transgress, we are stoned. We die to Him and His working. We override his plan. We sin. We become alive to self; self-will, self-motivation, and subject to our own notions about how it should be done, when He is the only one who knows the path. Did you ever screw anything up, though you meant well?
James says that lust when it has conceived, brings forth sin, and sin worketh death, which is separation from God. You get stoned. Now it was a long time before Adam and Eve died physical death. They were on their way though, because they had separated themselves from eternal life in a similar way – by sin. This is what happens to one spiritually in this new age. Now we know to repent of certain things that are obvious. What we are missing is the knowledge to repent in the things that seem good in themselves but are misguided. I know that Jesus uses these things that we do and sometimes something good results. There is a more intense way though.
Jesus wants you to walk with Him, not call a meeting to see what you can do for Him, at least, not until you get the first things first. Face it. He has already done it! If you walk with Him, you will find this out.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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I just want to say that is all....
quote:
That is all.....
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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TB125
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Hi Daniel,
In your last post to me you asked me how I "regard the power of the Word of God itself".
You then made the following statement with a couple more questions to me:
quote:
I firmly believe that if the word of forgiveness of sin( by the expressed love of God) itself is not sufficient to change our hearts, then God is not going to come and give us an extra "jolt" so that we will become able to believe and accept it.....especially considering Christ came commanding that men repent and believe.....there is a period of time after we have heard the word where it appears that God waits on a satisfactory response from us. Do you understand my thought here? Does what I am saying make sense to you?
The Word of God is the gospel, incarnate in Jesus, but it is also expressed in God's personal calling to trust him and to accept his gift of grace that Jesus provided for rebellious sinners. His announcement that he is offering someone his forgiveness because he loves them and his Son, Jesus, died for them is not sufficient by itself to "change" or revitalize anyone's "dead" heart. An extra "jolt" is necessary.
Note what Paul says about this in this statement: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them..." (1 Cor 2:14). Note the word "accept"; it is central to this doctrine of salvation.
I understand your thinking about this, but can you understand mine when I indicate that a "dead" heart cannot respond to a "jolt" of God's forgiving grace or "accept" it apart from the present work of God's Spirit in that heart. This is the action of choice that I mentioned in my previous post. If the "dead" heart responds right away, that is due to the readiness of that heart to respond through the work of the Holy Spirit. If it doesn't respond right away, God may continue to apply the "jolt" of his Word of invitation and warning or otherwise allow the individual to go on living while he is "dead" in his/her trespasses and sins. Eventually the heart may respond, but it may not.
The Word of God is powerful, sharp and penetrating, but it does not do its work apart from the active presence of the Holy Spirit. I hope that these further comments have helped to clarify my understanding of this doctrine. Let's continue this discussion.
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Bob
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Your last post made me think of Jesus' saying that goes....."if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
So how is it that this little tiny bit of faith can move mountains? ....... is it because this little tiny bit of faith is in the right thing? (Jesus)
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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WildB
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"Jesus therefore came to restore us to that garden relationship"
Not Biblical.......
1Pet.1
[4] To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Stop your sillyness.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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There is a seed whose outter cover is so hard, that it is helpful to take an emory board to it. One rubs through the tough exterior on a very small area of the seed. Then, when placed in water it can germinate because the water can reach inside.
Our circumstances are like that. They are supposed to abrade the seed so that faith can begin to grow. You will remember that faith is like a grain of mustard. It is so very small, but it grows, if germinated, into a very large tree, particularly considering its starting size.
Jesus is the seed in our heart, or, if you would like, our heart is the seed, Jesus is the germinator by which the seed grows into a tree. The Kingdom of Heaven is like that mustard tree that came from the seed. Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto Jesus.
We have the capability to shed water. It is the hardness of our heart that does so. Instead of letting the seed be watered, we set out to grow our own tree. See the scriptures? A dead branch is nigh unto burning.
If the seed is watered, (faith and believing accomplish this) the seed will grow into a tree. That tree is the Kingdom of Heaven which is within us (not out there).
The Kingdom of Heaven is the Word of God. For, by the Word of God the Kingdom exists, and is perpetuated, filled with all of the fullness of God, for all things it says, were created by Him.
Starter faith is simply to choose to believe; a grain of mustard seed, the only capacity for faith that man is given. After the seed is germinated, it is the faith of Jesus, i.e. belief in Himself, that grows up in us (as the sap flows, brother) as we receive, that because we believe. This is always dependant upon the starter faith, simple believing, without which the tree would fail. Therefore, unbelief can separate, even kill.
Adam and Eve became separate from God because they did not believe. Their act of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was an act of unbelief, which was the first action, which led to the first disobedience, which separated them from the Living God. They died, which is the process of dying. If you look at grade school science, they say that you start dying when you are born. They first experienced a spiritual let down, then eventually their bodies died. They did not believe, therefore they did not live unto God. They died as a result of unbelief, resulting in disobedience.
Jesus therefore came to restore us to that garden relationship. He wasn't going to let His creation be separated from Him. You know the rest. Won't you believe and be restored?
Therefore, repentance is turning from unbelief, which is turning from disobedience, to having life, from the life giver. (Because disobedience is out of unbelief!)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Bob,
The reason why I asked you the question that I did about your illustration is that I wanted to see how you regard the power of the Word of God itself. Surely, the entire Bible is inspired by the Holy Ghost. I firmly believe that if the word of forgiveness of sin( by the expressed love of God) itself is not sufficient to change our hearts, then God is not going to come and give us an extra "jolt" so that we will become able to believe and accept it.....especially considering Christ came commanding that men repent and believe.....there is a period of time after we have heard the word where it appears that God waits on a satisfactory response from us. Do you understand my thought here? Does what I am saying make sense to you?
I have often noticed that those who hold certain calvinist beliefs(not to make assumptions of you) like to quote the passage about faith being a gift.....but it appears that James really seems to throw a wrench in the equation when he states that faith without works is dead. Is James then stating that this faith (gift of God) is insufficient in itself? I highly doubt it. I believe that Paul had good reason for expressing what he did about faith being a gift, but I do believe that many of us take it the wrong way. I will step out on a limb, but hopefully not step on your toes Bob, by attempting to explain what Paul was desiring to express when he said that faith is a gift. For Paul, especially due to the nature of his testimony, the association between "what faith is" and "who Christ is" had no dichotomy. It is apparent, through most of Paul's writing, that being "in the faith" was the same as being "in Christ". So to get to the point, I believe that Paul is expressing that faith is a gift because Christ is a gift.....and He certainly is to those who obey by repenting and putting their faith in Him......and the word itself is most certainly able to accomplish this response in our lives....it is the love of the truth, by the word, that convinces our hearts.
Now I do believe that when we are in the will of God, we are enabled by the Holy Spirit to accomplish things otherwise impossible. Jesus will not authorize the Holy Spirit to minister on the behalf of one who has not submitted to His Will. It just dont happen....otherwise God would be the author of confusion. Paul is not an exception to this truth. God foreknew that Paul would submit after his encounter with Jesus on the road to damascus. Certainly that would not have happened if Paul was going to rebel. Jonas is also no exception, but it took Jonas much more convincing though.
I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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TB125
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Daniel,
I used the word "chosen" in reference to the dead patient in my illustration regarding God's work of giving out his grace, because that is the word Jesus used in reference to his disciples when he indicated that they "did not choose" him, but he "chose" them in John 15:16 (see also John 15:19). In his parable regarding the Wedding Feast (Matthew 22:1-14), Jesus indicates that "many are invited, but few are chosen" (vs 14) to share with God in his wedding banquet in heaven.
You ask me this question regarding my illustration: quote:
By your illustration, are you implying that God selects out certain individuals to "zap" with the Holy Spirit so that they can respond to the gospel, and the others are left helpless only to be destined to Hell?
I believe that the Bible makes it clear that we are all "helpless" apart from God's loving grace. But God's choice in whom he revives with his heart restoring work does not allow anyone to blame God if his/her heart doesn't respond to his Spirit. Paul teaches that all "men are without excuse" because they (we) have all refused to glorify God our creator and thank him for the goodness of his creation, acknowledging his power and divine nature (see Romans 1:18-20).
Some individual's hearts are more "dead" than others! The hearts of some individuals have been so impaired by inherited sin and persistent willful sin that they are unresponsive to God's Spirit. Various biblical passages refer to such a heart as it being "hardened". God knows whose hearts are so hard that they are no longer going to respond to his gift of grace, so he stops "calling" them, he withdraws his offer from such individuals and lets them go to hell.
Many doctors may not know for sure that their patient's stopped heart cannot respond to some electrical stimulation, so they administer a jolt to see if it might resume its beating. Most preachers and teachers and evangelists have no way of knowing for sure whose hearts can respond to God's word of call and the offer of his gift of grace and whose hearts cannot respond because they are too "hard", so they offer God's invitation. In every case it is always God's Spirit that initiates the response of the individual's heart if it comes to life, otherwise it remains "dead". That is God's or Jesus' work of choosing those who receive his life-giving grace.
I hope that this further explanation regarding this matter of faith is helpful. Salvation is always the work of God. The redemption of sinners is always the object of his love and transforming power, but he doesn't revive every sin-hardened heart.
With thanksgiving for his amazing grace,
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Bob
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I have a Bible dictionary in front of me right now. According to it the definition of repentance is as follows:
Repentance. The act of turning from sin and changing one's orientation from rebellion against God to acceptance of God's will and lordship. A patient God commands all persons to repent (Acts 17:30). Christ came to call sinners to repentance (Luke 5:32), and He also counsels believers to forgive a brother who repents (Luke 17:3). See also Contrite; Conviction; Penitence
END
Michael, do you agree with the above definition of repentance?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Bob,
I'd rather call you Bob, lol....because when I use the TB125, I feel like I am speaking to a Star Wars robot.
Ok, I would like to work off of your illustration, if I may, to ask further question.
By your illustration, are you implying that God selects out certain individuals to "zap" with the Holy Spirit so that they can respond to the gospel, and the others are left helpless only to be destined to Hell?
I do personally believe that God may call leaders in a unique fashion, but I still question the status quo.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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TB125
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Hi Daniel,
You asked me about this statement on faith that I made in my response to Michael: quote:
"faith" is not a work that the believer does but it is a gift that God gives to the believer.
My statement is based on what Paul says about faith in Ephesians 2:8-9 where he indicates that it is a "gift" from God and not a "work" that a person does. You obviously are familiar with that text.
You apparently are wondering how I understand that this "gift" comes to a believer, in what "manner" is it presented.
That is a fundamental issue in the doctrine of salvation. You note that the manner in which Jesus came to Paul was "radical", in that he knocked him to the ground, spoke to him in an audible voice, and struck him blind while most of us simply have "the word preached to us".
In regard to the "manner" in which this "gift" is presented, I would note that it is the work of God's Holy Spirit that made Paul receptive to the words of Jesus in the same way that it is the work of the Holy Spirit that makes any believer receptive to the words of any preacher.
God's gift of grace comes to each of us through the "manner" of his divine call, the appealing words of his Holy Spirit to believe on his Son, Jesus, and to accept him by faith, trusting God that Jesus' sacrifice on a cross paid the penalty for our sins.
Rationally it is hard for me to not see this "manner" of my acceptance of God's grace as not something that I do, a work. But that is not the way Paul describes this part of salvation.
As I've been thinking about how to respond to your inquiry regarding this manner, this illustration came to my mind.
The work of God's Holy Spirit in presenting God's gift of grace to an individual and enabling that individual to accept it is like the shock of the electric stimulators that a doctor applies to the dead heart of his patient on the operating table in order to restore its beat. The action of applying the stimulators is outside of the control of the patient and so is the response of his/her heart. It some cases the heart of the patient resumes its beating, but in other cases it doesn't. But in every case the pocess is outside of the control of the patient.
Since we are all "dead" in our sins, we can have no direct control over God's work of giving his grace to us or enabling us to receive it, so this "manner" of faith is not a "work" that we do, but it is a work that God does in some of us whom he has "chosen".
I hope that this brief explanation of my thoughts regarding this matter is helpful. Get back to me if it isn't and I'll try to clarify my understanding of this for you. It is good to share with you in the consideration of this basic part of salvation.
Your fellow learner (disciple) in Jesus,
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Michael Harrison
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I don't think that it can be oversimplified, but in fact, things are overlooked because simple doesn't register. It is too hard to slow down for simple. If you are looking for simple in the instruction manual, you will find it. If you look for complicated, you will find it. God is in the simple!
Repentance, at its basic bottom line, is turning from unbelief. You can look at it differently, which is ok. But if He saves, heals and delivers.... Well, let's look at delivers. If you turn from sin, how do you rise above the temptation and snare? By deliverance. It is the power of a resurrected life, His, that enables you to escape sin. There is no better, in fact, no other way to escape.
I once was posed the question by a popular, and skillful teacher at a fellowship that i attended: "So what do you do, tie yourself to the mast so that you will not sin?" His unbelief showed.
I am afraid that this action would only restrain you, not deliver you from its power. You would still be guilty, and yearning. Therefore, you need delivering power. That power would be Christ, and the way to victory would be to turn from yielding yourself to obeying sin, by believing in His delivering you from wanting, or needing to!!! That is how the power of a resurrected life works. If you restrain yourself, you are doing. If you receive the power of a resurrected life, you receive. Uplifting righteousness is imparted to you. Deliverance.
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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi TB125,
You hit on something in your post that I would like to ask you about.....faith as a gift. Would you please explain what you believe Paul means when he states that faith is a gift....and in what manner that comes to us in our lives.
I understand that the Lord Jesus came to Paul in a radical way, but for us, ( for the most part )we have the word preached to us.......what are your thoughts?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
What is your view on repentance?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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TB125
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Michael,
I don't understand this statement: quote:
Neither did i pose this quesion this way.
How did you intend to pose your question?
I have observed that most of the participants in these forums do not change their opinions or give much effort to new thinking regarding the various doctrines or questions that have been raised by others.
You ask three more questions in your response to my question. What do some of us have to ask you to get you to rethink your theology regarding salvation? I don't think that you are at all ready to give any new thought to your position, so you keep chipping away with such questions at the understanding that many of us have regarding God's work of salvation and what He expects of His children.
I don't think that any of us have indicated that anyone can be "justified" by something that he/she does. I think that most of us who have critized your position believe that God justifies those who have faith in His Son, Jesus, and that this "faith" is not a work that the believer does but it is a gift that God gives to the believer. Obedient works of stewardship and service are required as a part of the process of santification, which God imposes upon His children through the Holy Spirit.
You don't need to rescind your post, just give us some indication that you are giving some new thought to your position as a result of the many comments that have been shared with you.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Michael Harrison
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Not everyone will read those posts. Many who do, do not agree. Neither did i pose this question this way in those posts. The effect on the understanding could be different by way of this illustration.
I suppose that i am thinking that it will make someone think a little more. Perhaps they, as you have, will challenge me by saying just what you said. Then i would have to ask, "Then you are justified by having, right?" Isn't that what faith performs? You are justified by having, not doing, because faith accepts, believes, receives! As you take it, it takes you.
As i said, the simplicity that cannot be overlooked by a true seeker, comes through in the translating of the word faith, to having; and the word Law, to doing, as in the book of Galations. I'm just waiting for someone to say that they are justified by their obedience.
Again! The simple fact of having means something incomprehendably, indelibly huge. It means that you are taken out of the way. It is your cross - to have. It means that you are dead to self, and alive to God! Because, doing, contributes, expecting justification, acceptance, reward (making you live): Having receives; blessing the Life Giver, which eliminates you as a servant, and confirms you as an heir. The action of the true doer is illustrated herein. Obedience is not eliminated. Your first obedience is to believe, letting the doer do! Follow after.
Joh 6:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent’."
"That ye believe on Him," doesn't mean the fact of His existence, and some past tense work of His. It means who He is and what He does as He is alive to you, not relegated to being serviced by indirect good intentions, which are hoping to live up to His expectations.
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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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TB125
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Michael,
Why do you ask this question? From all of your postings, it is obvious that you understand that justification is God's gift of grace through faith in accord with His will and not in accord with anything that anyone has done to deserve it.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Michael Harrison
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How have you justified yourselves today?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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