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Author
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Topic: More False Trinity Evidence
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
The original texts were written in Hebrew, Greek with some Aramaic, Bbrown, and one must seek some semblance of understanding of those original languages to understand scriptural meaning and context.
You search the Word with theological blinders of deception.
Quote:
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.
_________________________________________________
A true wresting and twisting of scripture to substantiate error!!
John 8:
56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57: Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59: Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Jesus declared, "Before Abraham was I Am", and then the Jews took up stones.
Am:
Strong's Number: 1510 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
eijmiv the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Eimi 2:398,206
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
i-mee' Verb
Definition
1. to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
Exodus 3:14
14: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
AM:
Strong's Number: 01961 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
hyh a primitive root [compare (01933)]
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hayah TWOT - 491
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
haw-yaw Verb
Definition
1. to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1. (Qal)
1. ----- 1a
2. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a
3. to come about, come to pass
1. to come into being, become 1a
4. to arise, appear, come 1a
5. to become 1a
1. to become 1a
2. to become like 1a
3. to be instituted, be established
4. to be 1a
6. to exist, be in existence 1a
7. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a
8. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a
9. to accompany, be with
10. (Niphal)
1. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
2. to be done, be finished, be gone
John 17:
5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
"Before Abraham was I am".
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by crosshearted:
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
Thats what I'm talking about. The Holy Spirit went to the verses and you went to a dictionary.
Yes the Holy Spirit goes to scripture and the Holy Spirit went to this scripture
quote:
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jesus plainly said "Have I been with you so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me," when asked show us the Father.
God was in Christ doing all the works. And Jesus was testifying to them "look at the works" and you will see God.
2 Cor 5:19
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
Like Jesus said look at the works. Jesus also said you have never seen Gods form nor heard His voice. We seen Jesus and heard Jesus.
John 5:36-37
36 "But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish-- the very works that I do-- bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
(NKJ)
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crosshearted
Advanced Member
Member # 4454
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
Thats what I'm talking about. The Holy Spirit went to the verses and you went to a dictionary.
Yes the Holy Spirit goes to scripture and the Holy Spirit went to this scripture
quote:
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jesus plainly said "Have I been with you so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me," when asked show us the Father.
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1 Corinthians 2:2
Posts: 43 | From: WV | Registered: Mar 2005
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Quote:
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.
_________________________________________________
A true wresting and twisting of scripture to substantiate error!!
John 8:
56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57: Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59: Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Jesus declared, "Before Abraham was I Am", and then the Jews took up stones.
Am:
Strong's Number: 1510 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
eijmiv the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Eimi 2:398,206
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
i-mee' Verb
Definition
1. to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
Exodus 3:14
14: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
AM:
Strong's Number: 01961 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
hyh a primitive root [compare (01933)]
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hayah TWOT - 491
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
haw-yaw Verb
Definition
1. to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1. (Qal)
1. ----- 1a
2. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a
3. to come about, come to pass
1. to come into being, become 1a
4. to arise, appear, come 1a
5. to become 1a
1. to become 1a
2. to become like 1a
3. to be instituted, be established
4. to be 1a
6. to exist, be in existence 1a
7. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a
8. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a
9. to accompany, be with
10. (Niphal)
1. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
2. to be done, be finished, be gone
John 17:
5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
"Before Abraham was I am".
Thats what I'm talking about. The Holy Spirit went to the verses and you went to a dictionary.
Did you know when dictionaries were invented? In the 1600's. What do you think the Holy Spirit was doing for 1600 years before dictionaries?
He was teaching people with the verses.
Heb 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
(NKJ)
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)
John 16:13-14
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
(NKJ)
James 3:17
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
(NKJ)
James 4:1-5
1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
(NKJ)
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
Quote:
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.
_________________________________________________
A true wresting and twisting of scripture to substantiate error!!
John 8:
56: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57: Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59: Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Jesus declared, "Before Abraham was I Am", and then the Jews took up stones.
Am:
Strong's Number: 1510 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
eijmiv the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Eimi 2:398,206
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
i-mee' Verb
Definition
1. to be, to exist, to happen, to be present
Exodus 3:14
14: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
AM:
Strong's Number: 01961 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
hyh a primitive root [compare (01933)]
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Hayah TWOT - 491
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
haw-yaw Verb
Definition
1. to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1. (Qal)
1. ----- 1a
2. to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a
3. to come about, come to pass
1. to come into being, become 1a
4. to arise, appear, come 1a
5. to become 1a
1. to become 1a
2. to become like 1a
3. to be instituted, be established
4. to be 1a
6. to exist, be in existence 1a
7. to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a
8. to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a
9. to accompany, be with
10. (Niphal)
1. to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
2. to be done, be finished, be gone
John 17:
5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
"Before Abraham was I am".
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
Brotherbrown -
Obviously you did not even read what was written. You cannot refute or dispute so you simply try to ignore??
You give tiresome argument by repeating yourself like a broken record - You are given proof text after proof text, which you continually ignore.
You should be cautious of how you approach I AM.
Your attempts to tear down or deny the tri-une God are false and Paul warned of these false doctrines which would erupt.
It is not about the word, but rather what it represents.
I am sorry you have slipped into this Jesus Only doctrine.
They like to teach that the Holy Spirit speaks only in verses also -
I will pray for you....
THE I AM DELUSION
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 7:51-52
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
John 8:1-2
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 8:12
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:16-18
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.
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Favor Minded
Advanced Member
Member # 4661
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posted
Brotherbrown -
Obviously you did not even read what was written. You cannot refute or dispute so you simply try to ignore??
You give tiresome argument by repeating yourself like a broken record - You are given proof text after proof text, which you continually ignore.
You should be cautious of how you approach I AM.
Your attempts to tear down or deny the tri-une God are false and Paul warned of these false doctrines which would erupt.
It is not about the word, but rather what it represents.
I am sorry you have slipped into this Jesus Only doctrine.
They like to teach that the Holy Spirit speaks only in verses also -
I will pray for you....
--------------------
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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crosshearted
Advanced Member
Member # 4454
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
I'm sorry but what I am looking for is truth.
I dont know if you realize this or not but the only truth is written in the Word of God. And if you cant find it written in the Word of God it is no more than speculation.
John 17:17-19
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
(NKJ)
And this brotherbrown is from the word of God and they are the words of Jesus
quote:
John 14:7-9 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
--------------------
1 Corinthians 2:2
Posts: 43 | From: WV | Registered: Mar 2005
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by crosshearted:
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
What I'm looking for is the truth.
You say that you are looking for truth but the only thing you do is hammer on your doctrine no matter what is presented to you.The truth is that your mind is already made up and you are only looking to proselytize people here into your doctrinal stand. That is not honest seeking of truth. You come here with an attitude of conflict and adversarial confrontation not seeking of truth.
In John the disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father and His answer is quite revealing
quote:
John 14:7-9If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. [u]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me[/u], Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
code:
I'm sorry but what I am looking for is truth.
I dont know if you realize this or not but the only truth is written in the Word of God. And if you cant find it written in the Word of God it is no more than speculation.
John 17:17-19
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
(NKJ)
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crosshearted
Advanced Member
Member # 4454
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
What I'm looking for is the truth.
You say that you are looking for truth but the only thing you do is hammer on your doctrine no matter what is presented to you.The truth is that your mind is already made up and you are only looking to proselytize people here into your doctrinal stand. That is not honest seeking of truth. You come here with an attitude of conflict and adversarial confrontation not seeking of truth.
In John the disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father and His answer is quite revealing
quote:
John 14:7-9If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. [u]Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me[/u], Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
code:
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1 Corinthians 2:2
Posts: 43 | From: WV | Registered: Mar 2005
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
I am only looking for the truth the deeper meat understanding of the Word. And the meat understanding is done with the Word of God(verses). And all you have to share is your own opinion?????
Your saying "If they are Christians and want to do what's right, how can they go so far wrong in their doctrine?"
We all know that the trinity is a preconceived idea that started in 325 AD at the Nicine council. The Nicine creed started 325 years after the Apostles creed. The apostles had the three Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three different beings with three different possitions and only one of them was God-the Father. Then the nicine creed came up with two different versions of who God is. First that there is one God with three personalities. Then three different beings and it takes all three to be God.
Now you come up with this
The "New Issue" or "Jesus Only" or "No Trinity" doctrines erupted within the Pentecostal movement about 1914.
We teach there is one God manifest in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Jesus Only people teach that Christ is the Father, He is the Son and He is the Holy Ghost. Hence the name, Jesus Only. I believe we can provide proper evidence from the Word of God that this is not the case and that the teaching advanced by these people is erroneous and does not accord proper due and honor to the Godhead.
What I'm looking for is the truth. And the Word of God is the only truth. The word trinity isnt even in the Word of God. And the evidence that the trinity uses isnt even in the Word of God like deity, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
I'm not looking for peoples own opinions, but that seems to be all you have. I'm sorry but your just not any help to what I'm looking for.
If you cant dispute these verses with verses then I must believe the Word of God.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
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Favor Minded
Advanced Member
Member # 4661
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posted
I posted this in another thread, but since this pervasive teaching against the trinity is filling up threads, I felt it appropriate here.
Brotherbrown - Yours is a misguided understanding, and you are being led astray. And the Holy Spirit does not speak only in verse.
Also - If you intend to refute, please do so without quoting yourself over and over again with the same 3 or 4 verses.
Use some "Real Meat" if you can - The "meat" from your stance does not exist.
There is a growing body of believers who are good, upstanding, well- motivated people. It might well be asked, "If they are Christians and want to do what's right, how can they go so far wrong in their doctrine?"
The answer, of course, is that even the best motivated of hearts can stumble when the head leads it down an errant path.
I believe their motivation is right, while their performance is in error. Should we chance divisiveness by discussing the doctrinal misconceptions they promote?
This is not a simple matter of "to each his own." The Word of God is given to us to be our staff against the world, our strength, and our guide to proper doctrine. The Word tells us to rightly divide the Word (II Timothy 3:16).
God gave us His Word so we could, through study and application, develop sound doctrine. Admittedly, all fall short of complete knowledge of God's intent for us in this day.
I believe God deliberately left some fine points obscured so we would have to study His Word as an ongoing and perpetual component of our Christian life.
I do feel, however, that there is a difference between freedom to search out God's meaning from His Word, and license to promote doctrines which are barely suggested within the Word.
The "New Issue" or "Jesus Only" or "No Trinity" doctrines erupted within the Pentecostal movement about 1914.
While it started as a friendly debate over the question of the correct method for water baptism, it quickly developed into a fierce controversy over the nature of the Godhead. The argument in those early days was basically over the effort to reconcile the words of the Lord in Matthew 28:19 and Peter's words in Acts 2:38. Suddenly the thing exploded.
Those who practiced baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Jesus Only) claimed a special revelation from the Lord which would result in the correct manner of water baptism. And, you might ask, what was this tremendous, tradition-defying revelation?
In effect it was this: Peter introduced the new baptismal method at Pentecost because, supposedly, the Holy Ghost had revealed unto him that the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ.
In other words, their "revelation" was that there is only one person in the Godhead and that is Jesus Christ. They also vehemently opposed the doctrine of the Trinity, claiming it was of human origin.
The argument became more heated, the controversy more explosive, and the split grew wider.
Three Gods or just one?
We teach there is one God manifest in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Jesus Only people teach that Christ is the Father, He is the Son and He is the Holy Ghost. Hence the name, Jesus Only. I believe we can provide proper evidence from the Word of God that this is not the case and that the teaching advanced by these people is erroneous and does not accord proper due and honor to the Godhead.
The Scripture does state there is one God. But the word "one" relates to unity as well as number. I John 5:7 clearly means one in unity, as does St. John 17:11-21. And yet there are three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The three are spoken of as one in number and yet treated individually in Scripture. There is one God the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 8:6; Ehpesians 4:3-6). Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality. The Father is called God (I Corinthians 8:6), the Son is called God (Isaiah 9:6-7; Hebrews 1:8; John 1:1-2) and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3- 4). Individually, each is called God; collectively, they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word "God" can be used either in the singular or in the plural, like sheep.
Everything that could pertain to God collectively could also apply equally to each member of the Godhead as individuals. However, there are some particulars which relate to each individual person of the deity as to position, office, and work that could not be attributed to either of the other members of the Godhead. For instance, the Father is the head of Christ (I Corinthians 11:3). The Son is the only begotten of the Father (II John 1:3). The Holy Ghost proceeds from both the Father and the Son (John 14:16; Acts 2:3-4).
The names of God prove plurality of persons. The Hebrew word Elohim, translated "God" in Genesis 1:1 and also in more than 2,700 other places in the Old Testament, is a uniplural noun which means "more than one." Had the sacred writer been led to use the singular El, then there would have been no indication of a divine plurality. But in this initial reference to God, he was led of the Holy Ghost to pen the Word Elohim (Genesis 1:1).
Also when one considers that the word Elohim is used about ten to one over the word El, we would have to conclude that this preference for the plural over the singular indicates a definite sign of plurality in the Godhead.
Genesis 3:22, where it says, "the man has become as one of us," proves plurality of persons by the use of the pronoun "us." Two Lords are mentioned in Genesis 19:24--one on earth and one in heaven. Two Lords sit side by side in Psalms 110:1-5, in Matthew 22:44, and in Acts 2:33-34, 36. Two and three Persons are mentioned in the introductions to many New Testament books: Romans, James, I Corinthians, I Peter, to name a few.
Jesus is NOT the father -
Only one Scripture in the Word of God states that Jesus is the Father. This is found in Isaiah, chapter 9, and it is a Hebrew idiom concerning the terminology of the Jews. And we know from the Word of God that while Jesus was on earth the Father was in heaven (Matthew 5:16-48). We also know (from Scripture) that Christ now sits at the right hand of the Father.
Jesus said He would confess men before His Father which was in heaven, proving He (Jesus) is not Himself the Father (Matthew 10:32; Revelation 3:5). Jesus always prayed to the Father as a separate person (Matthew 11:25). Both Jesus and Satan refer to God apart from Jesus (Matthew 4:6-10). Jesus was the only begotten Son of the Father.
Hence, Jesus could not be the Father, nor could He beget Himself (John 1:14). Over 80 times in the Word f God Jesus affirmed that He was not the Father, nor was He the only person in the Godhead.
Admittedly, we do not understand everything about the Trinity. However, it does become somewhat less confusing and mysterious if we don't try to force two or more separate Persons into becoming only one Person, simply because we choose not to recognize that the true meaning of the word "one" actually refers to unity.
So what we have is, only one Scripture (easily explained) in the Old Testament stating that Jesus is the Father, and so very, very many confirming that He is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit IS NOT Jesus or the Father
The Holy Spirit is another and He is from both the Father and the Son (John 5:32). So that the Holy Spirit could come, it was necessary that Jesus go away (John 16:5-15). Even then, though, He could not be sent from God until Christ was glorified. But at that time He would be sent from both the Father and the Son (John 7:37-39). The Holy Spirit was sent from the Father to endue Jesus with power.
This clearly requires three persons--the One who sent Him, and the One being sent, and the One who received Him!
A clear distinction is made between the Son who prays, the Father to whom He prays, and the Holy Spirit for whom (which) He prays (John 14:16).
The descent of the Holy Spirit acknowledged the arrival of Jesus in heaven to sit at the right hand of God, thus proving three separate and distinct persons (Acts 2:33-34; John 7:39).
So, Jesus is God; the Holy Ghost is God; the Father is God. But Jesus is not the Holy Spirit; Jesus is not the Father. And neither is the Father the Lord Jesus Christ; nor is the Father the Holy Spirit.
The scriptural passages which provide the basis for the Trinitarian doctrine cannot be reconciled to the Jesus Only position without totally disregarding the meaning of language and without totally ignoring many contrary Scriptures.
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by crosshearted:
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
You cant see this.
so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus
No the context is not about Jesus. The mention of Jesus in this scripture was to just show that Paul had been given a ministry. And that ministry was to
1) minister the grace of God
2) preach the kingodm of God
3) shepard the flock of God that God purchased with His blood.
Now we will look at something you posted
quote:
God created Jesus first before anything else.
In this you are saying that Jesus is not eternal. Yet the scriptures when speaking of the Messiah says this
quote:
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
The Messiah has no beginning but is from everlasting. The Son was with the Father before creation of the heavens and earth. Here we have a prophetic passage of Jesus speaking of the Father and the beginning
quote:
Proverb 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
I can see your delusion. First of all the context is about Jesus.
Second you dont seem to know the difference between "LORD" and "Lord". In the old testament God the Father held both titles of God and LORD. But He turned over title of Lord to Jesus in the new testament. You cant mix the words from the old testament with the new testament they have different meanings even. Many words in the old testament have a different meaning than the same word in the new testament.
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crosshearted
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
You cant see this.
so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus
No the context is not about Jesus. The mention of Jesus in this scripture was to just show that Paul had been given a ministry. And that ministry was to
1) minister the grace of God
2) preach the kingodm of God
3) shepard the flock of God that God purchased with His blood.
Now we will look at something you posted
quote:
God created Jesus first before anything else.
In this you are saying that Jesus is not eternal. Yet the scriptures when speaking of the Messiah says this
quote:
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
The Messiah has no beginning but is from everlasting. The Son was with the Father before creation of the heavens and earth. Here we have a prophetic passage of Jesus speaking of the Father and the beginning
quote:
Proverb 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
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1 Corinthians 2:2
Posts: 43 | From: WV | Registered: Mar 2005
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
You cant see this.
so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus
The whole context is about him finishing the race with the ministry which Jesus gave to him.
The whole context is about Jesus.Jesus brought the grace of God to us. Jesus is the one that gave him his ministry.
Acts 20:24-28
24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
25 "And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more.
26 "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
27 "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
(NKJ)
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crosshearted
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
The context of verse 28. Taken by itself looks like it is speaking of Gods blood. But taken in context with the way it is written. Paul is speaking of the ministry that Jesus gave him to preach about the church of God that Jesus was preaching. And in that context Paul is speaking about the blood of Jesus.
I'm not quite sure aboout your knowledge of language structure but the context of these scriptures is God. The only part about Jesus is the fact that he gave Paul the ministry of the Gospel of God. These are the predicating factors of context.
1) the grace of God
2) the kingdom of God
3) the flock of God
The context is about God in all parts. The blood by which the Flock was purchased was the blood of God.
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
The context of verse 8 taken by itself looks like God is calling Jesus God. And God being a spiritual title of authority. But taken in context in verse 6 we see that will only happen AFTER God brings Jesus back into the world. Which hasnt happened yet.
What you fail to see is that this statement was made in the Old Testament in Psalms and the context there was this
quote:
Psalm 45:6-7 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
This is God speaking to the Son clearly calling Him God
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1 Corinthians 2:2
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Profile for Brotherbrown
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 6606
Registered: June 20, 2007
Posts: 75
Are you a male or female?: male
I noticed that you did not mark that you were a born again Christian?
Why?
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That is all.....
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
It is clear to all your error.
Stop your sillyness.
It sounds like your hardhearted and you won't even consider the Word of God(all them verses).
Of which of them verses are you disputing?
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WildB
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posted
It is clear to all your error.
Stop your sillyness.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brotherbrown
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posted
MORE FALSE EVIDENCE FROM THE TRINITY
The context of verse 28. Taken by itself looks like it is speaking of Gods blood. But taken in context with the way it is written. Paul is speaking of the ministry that Jesus gave him to preach about the church of God that Jesus was preaching. And in that context Paul is speaking about the blood of Jesus.
Acts 20:24-28
24 "But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
25 "And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more.
26 "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
27 "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
(NKJ)
The context of verse 8 taken by itself looks like God is calling Jesus God. And God being a spiritual title of authority. But taken in context in verse 6 we see that will only happen AFTER God brings Jesus back into the world. Which hasnt happened yet.
Heb 1:6-8
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
(NKJ)
The context of verse 13 appears that Jesus and God are the same. But read in context we see that it is talking about who brought grace and salvation to show us which is Jesus. And He brought it from God, God sent Jesus. So they are both working together for our redemption.
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
(NKJ)
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