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Author
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Topic: Image Of God
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mchevy
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posted
I thought I made my point well that the image is not the spirit or anything else but a relationship which was lost because of sin. Through Christ’s sacrifice we can be redeemed. That is those who those who accepted the free gift by faith
Ephesians 2:8 “ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
I’m not understanding your point about Melchizedek. He was a descendant of Adam bore the image of fallen Adam. His faith like Abraham’s faith was counted for righteousness restoring his relationship with God, just as others
By faith Enoch was translated
By faith Noah…and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Romans 4:3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Faith saves.
You said;
[Jesus]Being the only descendant of unfallen Adam..."Which leads me to ask: "What?!"
The scriptures say that Jesus is the Second Adam and the last Adam (I Corinthians 15:45-49) . There is no other son of unfallen Adam (everyone born of fallen Adam is born in sin except Jesus) in between.
You said;
Redemption necessitates a previous state of being. A place must exist for one to "return to" it.
This is exactly what Christ’s sacrifice accomplished. Through belief in Christ, Adam's desendents (us) will return to that previous state (sonship) before sin entered into this world.
Those redeemed are Image Bearers.
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Aaron
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Pardon me, but it seems you did nothing to further the discussion. You simply expanded upon your original hypothesis: all men were not created in the image of God.
And forget Mary if you chose, then what of the prophets, Melchizadek (please don't say he was Jesus in another time), and the patriarchs? Through them all we see God work in the earth and in time prior to their redemption in Christ.
Even so, you said the following: quote:
"[Jesus]Being the only descendant of unfallen Adam..."
Which leads me to ask: "What?!"
Aaron
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mchevy
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So, let's consider the girl, Mary. [uh oh, now he's done it!]
Let’s consider the seed of the woman.
Genesis 3:15 “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
Hebrew 10:5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
With the body ready to receive the Eternal Son at its first breath, the Lord the Second/Last Adam, left his heavenly abode and the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. Being the only descendent of unfallen Adam, sin was not passed on to him. Mary (seed of the woman) was visited by the Holy Spirit and that perfect seed developed in to (a body hast thou prepared me) Christ Jesus, God- Man. So when we are “born again” we bear the image of the Second/Last Adam the quickening spirit.
I Corinthians 15:45-49. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
So now we are descendants (after the Kind) of True man and are God’s Children.
Roman 8:14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Roman 8:16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
In Him
Mchevy
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Aaron
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"Each after its own kind". This is the rule of law that dictates procreation.
Dogs and cats cannot make cogs and dats when no one is looking. It simply cannot be.
The same is true with the humans. They cannot procreate with a beast...only with their own kind.
Is the same true for God? Perhaps, we think, because He is God He can bend the rules? No! He is truthful to His word: from here to eternity, as they say.
So, let's consider the girl Mary. [uh oh, now he's done it!] And I'll cut to the chase...prior to her redemption through the blood of Jesus Christ she bore God's Seed in her womb! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) ,
Aaron
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mchevy
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Sorry it took so long to post.
When a prepared body receives its created spirit from God it becomes a living soul.
When God breathed into the formed earth he created Adam, a living soul. Gen. 2:7
The Nephesh (living soul) is also attributed to living creature, moving creature, etc…, in
Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, 30; 2:19; 9:4,10,12,15,16 Nephesh, is the normal Hebrew word for
soul which is usually translated pneuma in the LXX and the New Testament.
Man and beast both have a spirit.
Ecclesiastes 3:21. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of
the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 12:7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall
return unto God who gave it.
The difference is relational. If the destiny of the two kinds of spirit involved is very
different, then we are justified in assuming that the nature of the two kinds of spirit
must be equally different.
This quote sums this well…,
Peter Lange, (6) in his commentary on Genesis, seems to me to come very close to this position when he remarks, "Man is nowhere said (as the animals are) to be after his kind, but when this new entity is to be brought into the cosmos, God is represented as saying to himself, or as though addressing some higher associate than nature, 'Let us make man in our image.' The image, therefore, in the case of humanity may be said to stand for the 'kind' or to come in place of it." It would be a fair rendering of the word "kind " in Genesis 1 (Hebrew min) as "akin to," i.e., as offspring are "kindred to" parents. In this case, "in our image" is a parallel through a special kind of kinship, kinship with God as a child with his Father.
Unredeemed man, lacking this relationship because he lacks the Image and lacking this system of inner guidance, is alien to that kingdom and therefore alien also to the rest of Nature which is still part of it. This total alienation both from true manhood and from Nature makes unredeemed man a unique and lonely creature. Such is the penalty of having lost the Imago Dei.
6. Lange, Peter, Commentary on Holy Scripture: Genesis, Zondervan, Grand Rapids, reprint p.355.
In short through Christ’s sacrifice the Second Adam and true man, true descendent of unfallen Adam (the seed of the woman), we can become Image Bears and Son of God. The Imago Dei is lost because our relation with God had been severed by sin. We are bearers of Fallen Adam’s image Gen 5:3 until we are born again (from above).
In Him
Mchevy
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by mchevy:
Aaron’s statement;
“Also, regarding the progeny of Adam I give you Luke 3:38 " the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."
I don’t disagree that Adam before the Fall was a son of God but you cannot say his offspring are because of being born of Adam.
I included an extra portion of the verse simply to be pragmatic. Also, I bolded the last part so you would know my emphasis. Certainly Adam's children needed redemption as did their father.
Aaron
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mchevy
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I’d like to go back to my original statement and work from there along with a statement which Aaron made…
My statement;
“There is so much here in these few verses concerning many traditional teachings. But as I read this fallen Adam “ begat a son in his own likeness, after his image” not God's image.”
Aaron’s statement;
“Also, regarding the progeny of Adam I give you Luke 3:38 " the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."
I don’t disagree that Adam before the Fall was a son of God but you cannot say his offspring are because of being born of Adam. According to the Gen. 5 verse we humans all inherit the nature of Fallen Adam. Ephesians confirms this
Ephesians1:1-3. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
(If Adam didn’t sin and had children they all would be perfect a he and Eve were and able to commune with God directly and be immortals, as Christ the Second Adam was)
Aaron also wrote;
I know, we'd like to have Adam punished more for what he did, but nevertheless, he is included in God's family and is counted among the redeemed.
I don’t discount Adam as being part of the redeemed. Redemption comes by faith and I believe that Adam (and Eve) believed God (have faith) that he was to bring into this world a Savior a Redeemer “The Seed of the Woman”
The image of God was lost when Adam fell. More to come and why I discount the spirit as the image.
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mchevy
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There is much here and I will comment after I digest it, but I'd like to comment on Aaron's food for thought especially his last paragraph...
What if I were to tell you going to Heaven is not our goal? Going to Heaven is a result. It results from something else and THAT something else is actually the point of all scripture. The alternative to the dominant filter, and the filter God intended, is that the scriptures exist to assist us to become complete in Christ as the sons of God and as such, the result obviously is, you’re going to Heaven.
Well put, Aaron wonderful perception
In Him
Mchevy
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Aaron
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Food for thought:
quote:
Commonly you will hear people say “look, the Bible says, right here such and such…don’t you believe that?” That is usually preceded by them telling you what to believe about what is written. The question is never “What does it say?” The words are quite obvious. The question is “What does that mean?”
Now, people think that what is meant is obvious, but often the meaning is derived within the context of a certain paradigm or filter and depending upon what the filter is that’s what they will say the verse means. When everybody has agreed for a long time what that “filter” should be then there is a presumption that develops that THAT is the correct filter to the point where, after many years of agreeing that THAT’S the correct filter, we’re not even conscious of the fact that there may be a different filter that God originally intended. A different filter would allow one to read the scriptures with a totally different relevance.
What do you think the dominant filter is? The dominant filter is “All the scriptures are written to tell you about going to Heaven.” Now, when you see it that way you interpret verses in support of the idea of what you must do to go to Heaven. This was the whole dilemma of Luther and Calvin and the whole notion of predestination. They asked the question about what to do to go to Heaven.
What if I were to tell you going to Heaven is not our goal? Going to Heaven is a result. It results from something else and THAT something else is actually the point of all scripture. The alternative to the dominant filter, and the filter God intended, is that the scriptures exist to assist us to become complete in Christ as the sons of God and as such, the result obviously is, you’re going to Heaven.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Aaron. You said:
Yes, you've summed it up nicely. If this is not so then one would have to ask "where did God's spirit go after Adam sinned?" Did it suddenly fly away? No, life was still in Adam even after he sinned. His death was assured (the wages of sin is death) but he still possessed the ability to commune with God, spirit to Spirit.
Eden here:
No, I don’t think so. After Adam and Eve listened to Lucifer-Satan, Lucifer-Satan was in a state of rebellion against God and by Adam and Eve joining the rebellion, God said, Okay, you listen to Lucifer-Satan then, he is your new prince.
Until Jesus died on the cross for sinners, sinners were ONLY hearing from Lucifer-Satan’s spirit, who is also a spirit. Adam’s spirit was listening to Lucifer’s spirit, not to YHWH’s Spirit because YHWH’s Spirit could NOT be reaccessed by saved sinners until AFTER Jesus died, NOT before Jesus died.
So from Adam and Eve’s sin until Jesus, man’s spirit was NOT communicating with God’s Spirit, but with Lucifer’s spirit, except where the LORD YHWH supernaturally intervened and “appeared unto Abraham”, and was on Gideon and on Saul, “Is Saul now also among the prophets?”
But from Adam to Jesus we were Lucifer’s people, Adam’s spirit tuned in to Lucifer’s spirit, our prince before we were saved.
Be blessed, Aaron,
Eden
Eden, my dear, then please explain Melchizedek, the "priests" among the Jews before Sinai, the prophets, etc.... No, it is quite clear God has always had His people. And, I wonder, has God ever "naturally" intervened? I don't think so.
We were not "Lucifer's people", how absurd and near to blasphemous (although at no fault of your own...such stories are popular among supposed teachers and pastors).
The Lamb was slain "before the foundation of the world". So the price of man's redemption was secure prior to the creation of man. How else do you suppose Jesus could say "your sins are forgiven" prior to His appearing on the cross? Did He get a free pass because He was super-special? Or do you think God is willing to violate His own laws? NO! The wages of sin were still death. And death was the only payment for sin. Forgiveness of sin could only be obtained through payment of death. This happened before the earth was made. The reality appeared to man "in the fullness of time". Jesus knew this. So, He could say without breaking any law "your sins are forgiven."
Let me reiterate: the payment for sin was secure before Adam and Eve sinned.
Aaron
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Eden
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Hi, Aaron. You said:
Yes, you've summed it up nicely. If this is not so then one would have to ask "where did God's spirit go after Adam sinned?" Did it suddenly fly away? No, life was still in Adam even after he sinned. His death was assured (the wages of sin is death) but he still possessed the ability to commune with God, spirit to Spirit.
Eden here:
No, I don’t think so. After Adam and Eve listened to Lucifer-Satan, Lucifer-Satan was in a state of rebellion against God and by Adam and Eve joining the rebellion, God said, Okay, you listen to Lucifer-Satan then, he is your new prince.
Until Jesus died on the cross for sinners, sinners were ONLY hearing from Lucifer-Satan’s spirit, who is also a spirit. Adam’s spirit was listening to Lucifer’s spirit, not to YHWH’s Spirit because YHWH’s Spirit could NOT be reaccessed by saved sinners until AFTER Jesus died, NOT before Jesus died.
So from Adam and Eve’s sin until Jesus, man’s spirit was NOT communicating with God’s Spirit, but with Lucifer’s spirit, except where the LORD YHWH supernaturally intervened and “appeared unto Abraham”, and was on Gideon and on Saul, “Is Saul now also among the prophets?”
But from Adam to Jesus we were Lucifer’s people, Adam’s spirit tuned in to Lucifer’s spirit, our prince before we were saved.
Be blessed, Aaron,
Eden
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by mchevy:
So you believe that all men posses the image of God because of the spirit that man has is a portion of Himself cut out from the "same cloth" and this was God's spirit.
You also believe that the image of God speaks of the character of God because Christ Hebrews 1:3..., express image of his person, so you equate the image of God with the character of God? Is this correct?
Yes, you've summed it up nicely. If this is not so then one would have to ask "where did God's spirit go after Adam sinned?" Did it suddenly fly away? No, life was still in Adam even after he sinned. His death was assured (the wages of sin is death) but he still possessed the ability to commune with God, spirit to Spirit.
quote:
John 5:18-19 "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner."
This is the perfect image of God. Christ did only what He saw the Father doing. When we see Christ we see God. This is written somewhere, yes? ![[Smile]](smile.gif) quote:
Ecclesiastes 12:7 "..and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
Man has the ability (not the best word) to be like his Creator. Jesus was the perfect image of God because He was begotten from God. Now, through Christ, man can be included in the Begotten.
This explains redemption, does it not? Redemption necessitates a previous state of being. A place must exist for one to "return to" it. God knew us before we were created. But we are born into sin. Our redemption is our return to our original place in the Begotten.
This is also explained in the telling of Adam and Eve. Paul said the account is in fact of Christ and the church. God did not make Adam and then make another lump to make Eve. He took of Adam and fashioned the woman from that part. So, too, we are fashioned from Christ and redeemed back into Him through the work of redemption.
And what of the heathen? I have witnessed (and there is Biblical record of) men cohorting with all manner of spirits that are far from Holy. They connect with evil spirits (spirit to spirit) for the satisfaction of their souls. But their destruction is imminent because only God is "the life giving Spirit".
quote:
1 Corinthians 15:44-49 "If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven."
Bless you,
Aaron
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EL3LN3TN
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Well, let me just interject at this point - I've got some 8 foot log poles in my storage shed, some rope, plenty of gasoline, some gutting knives, BIBLES, and
a bit of charcoal.
LET'S PARTY. ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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mchevy
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So you believe that all men posses the image of God because of the spirit that man has is a portion of Himself cut out from the "same cloth" and this was God's spirit.
You also believe that the image of God speaks of the character of God because Christ Hebrews 1:3..., express image of his person, so you equate the image of God with the character of God? Is this correct?
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Aaron
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When God breathed life into Adam He was effectively putting a portion of Himself into the creation. This was God's Spirit. God's spirit and man's spirit are cut from the same cloth, so to speak. A non-Christian still has a spirit but is categorically "dead" because he has not recognize his dependence upon God for "authentic life". This reality is further explained in the revelation of the Body of Christ wherein all the redeemed are a portion of the one Body. A part, excluded from the Body, cannot live.
The "image of God" speaks of the character of God. Christ was/is the manifest "Image of God". He was called so because of His character.
Also, regarding the progeny of Adam I give you Luke 3:38 "..the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."
I know, we'd like to have Adam punished more for what he did, but nevertheless, he is included in God's family and is counted among the redeemed.
Aaron
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mchevy
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Hi, I am new here and I want to thank everyone in advance that takes the time to respond. Studying the scriptures is never a waste of time.
Often I hear that men are image-bearers of God. I have come to question this belief and have come to my own conclusion that men are not image-bearers that men bear the image of fallen Adam;
Gen. 5:1-3 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: There is so much here in these few verses concerning many traditional teachings. But as I read this fallen Adam “ begat a son in his own likeness, after his image” not God's image. I believe that man only can possess the image of God after being born-again. So much more here what do you think? Do all men possess the image of God? Is it tainted? Destroyed? Do Christian possess it?
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