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Originally posted by David:
This is a subject you will seldom ever see addressed because of its controversial nature but the two part question that sums up this subject, would be this; “Did God intend for people to become rich from being Gospel ministers, or to be recognized as having executive status as ministers, in the same way the world’s executives are recognized?”

First, in regard to the question of whether men or women, are intended by God to become rich from the gospel, the indisputable and obvious answer to this question, is of course; “no”.

When God causes riches to gravitate (to be reaped) to individuals, those “riches” (meaning; beyond one’s needs), will not come from people who give tithes and offerings to bless others, needing Gospel ministry.

God certainly meets the needs of Gospel ministers and other Christians (Ph 4:19) but when it comes to riches and wealth (when it is indeed God who is blessing a person with riches), these riches will come through having favor with men (Gen 39:4) and from the world’s wealth, being diverted toward godly men, not from Christians who are giving to see needs met and the Gospel ministered. At the same time, as already stated, God certainly meets the needs of Gospel ministers, through the giving of his people, the Christian Church (Ps 37:25).

If in the eyes of the world (non-Christians), it looks corrupt for men to obtain wealth and riches from being Gospel ministers and it certainly does, then God himself certainly would never agree with or help perpetuate such an image. For anyone who might disagree with this view, I would ask that you give one single Bible-scripture reference, to a minister, who became wealthy from the Gospel (church-giving). The fact is, you will not find one solitary reference of any kind that states this or even implies this, including the example of Jesus himself (2 Cor 8:9).

Some persons obviously take scripture out of context and will cite examples such as Abraham, Solomon or Job and others who had great wealth, however, God did not bless these men with wealth that came from those paying tithes and offerings but these riches came from the world’s wealth, which means it was still God who opened the doors and supplied the wealth but not from his own people who give with sincere hopes behind their tithes and offerings, for needs to be met for others (spiritual and financial) and for the Gospel to be preached.

Men who are Gospel ministers are also “stewards” of the tithes and offerings that Christians give, which is an awesome responsibility but unfortunately, many will justify receiving more than they should reasonably receive, as a minister of God’s Word. They will claim God is bringing them/blessing them with wealth because of their own seeds of giving, that they-themselves, have sown and because of their diligent and long-standing service. While certainly there is a truth to the spiritual law of “sowing and reaping” (Gal 6:7), that God created for blessing, this truth can be perverted and taken out of context, for self-gain and wrongful justification, just as any other truth in God’s Word, can be.

Another justification men use for gaining wealth from the Gospel, is by claiming God wants them to have the very large (exceeding reasonable Pastor-Salary) tithe that comes into a church or organization or else he would not be causing the particular ministry to grow as large as it has. This is an incorrect view.

A ministry and the giving that happens within that ministry, is for the furtherance of God’s Gospel and not to bless men with wealth from tithes and offerings (II Cor 8:14-15). It is never the man who increases the growth of a true Gospel ministry but it is God himself who does so (I Cor 3:7).

What further gives justification for ministers who receive “disproportionately large” salaries, are the people who support them in this belief, such as Church Boards approving an unreasonably excessive salary a Pastor receives from the church tithes. In the mean time, other nearby churches who struggle, must use other church funds, besides the tithes coming in, in order just to provide for the needs of their minister, who certainly does deserve to receive it (I Tim 5:18).

This struggling Pastor many times may actually be working harder and putting in more hours of service, than the Pastor who is receiving a disproportionately large salary but of course this is not true in all cases.

A particular church and its Pastor, can be blessed with very large giving of tithes and offerings and other churches of the same denomination, in neighboring towns, or even within the same town, that are truly doing a sincere work for God, are struggling just to keep their doors open.

Obviously the money received as compensation for ministers and workers, should be reasonable and not disproportionately excessive. If tithes and offerings continue to increase in a ministry, this does not mean God desires for the ministers and workers to continue receiving salary increases, until they literally are becoming wealthy and rich from the sincere giving of God’s people.

There should obviously be a “salary cap”, meaning the amount received for their service to the Gospel, should not exceed a reasonable level of wealth.

Should ministers have nice houses, cars, cloths, etc…? The answer is absolutely, “YES” but should they be accumulating riches and wealth, building larger and more extravagant homes, etc…, when the need is not there to do so and other deserving people in need are being overlooked? . Let me say that I am not, and never have been of the belief that ministers should be poor or needy, this too would be a perversion of God’s Word.

I also do not believe God is against ministers becoming wealthy or rich but God is a God of omniscience (all-knowing) and he knows how to bestow wealth (beyond needs) upon his ministers and his people from their seeds of giving and he does so, in a way that is righteous and in a way that does not cause the world, who is needing the true Gospel-witness, to question the motives of God’s ministers (the ones who are truly called).
Something else that can be involved in this scenario involving riches, is “status”, meaning the belief that some Pastors have reached a higher level of prominence and higher deserving over time, which brings me to the subject of “executive status” for Pastors.

In reality, there is no such thing, except in the minds of those who actually believe this should be applied to those who are worthy of it and to those who believe they have actually achieved it.

Pastors and ministers certainly are the heads of their churches and ministries and should receive the respect that is due for being the shepherds and leaders in their church/ministries however, there is an executive-behavior and recognition, that is found in the world and though it is not wrong, in its proper place, it was never meant to be perpetrated by ministers of the Gospel and adopted by the Christian Church.

Jesus stated; “But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.” (Mt 23:11-12) however, it is very evident that with some ministers, the more prominent they become, the more they delegate their service and duties, for others to perform. They become less approachable and can actually develop an arrogant attitude, which according to God’s Word, is something God hates (Pr 6:16-19). These type individuals, will actually avoid people they believe are not up to their status, such as those who are not as well-dressed (yet are sincere and receptive) or those who are also not at a certain level of financial status. You may at this point of this article be asking the question; “Does this actually happen?”, and the unfortunate answer is; “Yes it does.” (James 2:1-5).

The best thing we can do for those who have fallen for these deceptions and beliefs that God accepts these behaviors and practices, is to pray for them. If such a person has offended us, we must sincerely forgive them and continue to show them love as much as it is possible.

Anyone who would claim that this article teaches against the law of sowing and reaping, is completely missing the point. We always reap from seeds we sow, whether financial, good deeds toward others or faithfulness to our Blessed Lord however, God knows far better, what blessings we are most in need of , in return and financial may not be at the top of the list for most of us. Without health and protection from danger for example, material wealth is meaningless.
Is it wrong to pursue material wealth? For some people, yes , because they may actually make an idol (placing more importance on it, than on God) but for others, there certainly is nothing wrong with improving upon material things for family and self, including those in ministry.

Some people can become rich and remain faithful to God and be faithful stewards of the wealth God blesses them with but for others, the wealth can become a curse for them, in this life. God knows each person’s heart and where they stand in regard to these issues but what is also important, is that the means for the gaining of wealth, makes a very definite impression on the world around us (our Christian-witness).

To claim this truth amounts to an anti-wealth and anti-riches for Christians message, is a perversion of what is being pointed out in this article, from God’s Word and rejection of these truths, may be an obvious sign of where a person actually stands in regard to these doctrines.

Ph 4:19 “But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.”

Gen 39:4 “Joseph found favor in his sight. He ministered to him, and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand.”

Ps 37:25 “I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.”

2 Cor. 8:9 “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.”

Gal 6:7 “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

II Cor 8:14-15 “but for equality. Your abundance at this present time supplies their lack, that their abundance also may become a supply for your lack; that there may be equality.
As it is written, He who gathered much had nothing left over, and he who gathered little had no lack.”

I Cor 3:7 “So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

I Tim 5:18 “for the scripture says, Thou shalt not muzzle an ox that treadeth out corn, and, The workman is worthy of his hire.”


Mt 23:11-12 “But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.”

Pr 6:16-19 “These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”

James 2:1-5 “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?”

http://audiosermonindex.com/members/html/modules/news/print.php?storyid=236

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Aaron:

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Originally posted by David:
Oh really, then why don't the rich ones help the poor ones?

Can you name some of these poor preacher that are in the USA?

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The question started with "should" as in "imperative; necessary". "Should ministers necessarily have such and such?"

Now, if the question began with "Do.." as in "Do ministers have thus and such...?" The answer would be "yes, [b]some[b] do."

As it was asked it was definately wrong.

Also, it seems that he interchanges the term "minister" with "preacher" or "pastor" or "evangelist, etc. It seems as if he's claiming that "ministers" are Christians who have gained a certain office within the church. This is Americanism. We are all gifted with certain gifts. God intends that we all use our gifts. This is ministry. Hence: all saints who use their gifts are ministers. Most ministers do not have 501c3 status nor do they represent a certain group save for one: : "Jesus Christ, Our Lord".

Aaron

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Should ministers have nice houses, cars, cloths, etc…? The answer is absolutely, “YES”

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Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by David:
Oh really, then why don't the rich ones help the poor ones?

Can you name some of these poor preacher that are in the USA?

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Originally posted by Aaron:

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Should ministers have nice houses, cars, cloths, etc…? The answer is absolutely, “YES”

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Hog. Wash.

Q: How should ministers spend the money they have charge over?
A: The way the Lord directs them.

IMO adding or subtracting from this principle is erroneous.

Some ministers do not have houses. Some have no need of cars. Some are killed for their work. Some imprisoned. Some are stripped naked and paraded in the streets and beaten.

There is too much "Americanism" in that article to be worthwhile to the church.

Aaron

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Should ministers have nice houses, cars, cloths, etc…? The answer is absolutely, “YES”

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Originally posted by David:
While certainly there is a truth to the spiritual law of “sowing and reaping” (Gal 6:7), that God created for blessing, this truth can be perverted and taken out of context, for self-gain and wrongful justification, just as any other truth in God’s Word, can be.

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Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by David:
While certainly there is a truth to the spiritual law of “sowing and reaping” (Gal 6:7), that God created for blessing, this truth can be perverted and taken out of context, for self-gain and wrongful justification, just as any other truth in God’s Word, can be.

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People tell me, "Joel, He is God. If He wants to bless me, He can." Friend, God works by laws. You can't expect to reap a harvest without first planting your seeds. If you will be faithful and do what God is asking you to do, God will do His part. Don't let the enemy deceive you into holding on to your seed--get it into the ground!

As you read this, God may be speaking to your heart. Trust that He will direct you how and where He wants you to sow your seed. If you are moved to send a seed gift in the enclosed reply envelope..." (Joel Osteen, letter from his ministry 2005 as cited at http://www.myfortress.org/JoelOsteen.html ).


Busted; anyone REMOTELY familiar with the Cult of the Word Faith Movement recognizes this blatant pitch for money, but apparently, when you smile a lie becomes less of a lie to the Evangelical camp.

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Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by David:

Anyone who would claim that this article teaches against the law of sowing and reaping, is completely missing the point. We always reap from seeds we sow, whether financial, good deeds toward others or faithfulness to our Blessed Lord however, God knows far better, what blessings we are most in need of , in return and financial may not be at the top of the list for most of us. Without health and protection from danger for example, material wealth is meaningless.

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Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged |