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Author
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Topic: Does God Want You To Be Rich?
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
I sure wish you would show me where I am making money from running Christian web sites? Please don't talk about things you know nothing about.
Thank you.
Sorry David, I thought in posts elsewhere you had talked about running these web sites as if it were your full time job. If I'm mistaken I apologise. I was certainly not implying that you were making money in a bad way - I thought it was a good example of making a living and providing a benefit to people.
quote:
Originally posted by David:
You are still missing the point. There is a big difference in spending money you made in an honest job and spending money you took up in a collection from God's people.
I don't think I am missing the point. If you deceive people, whoever (whether Christian or not) and however you do that the money is tainted. If you take money from people (whoever they may be) and they have full knowledge of your intentions (and the intentions are true and not sinful) then the money is not tainted. There is no split between Christian or not - an act that is a sin is a sin whether perpetrated against a christian or an atheist.
What you then do with the money is a seperate matter. If you are a prolific christian music writer (e.g. Graham Kendrick) you may make a large amount of money from Christians. What you then do with that money is also important but not because of who it has come from, but because of the expectations of God on us to help others.
I think you're making an artifical distinction - it doesn't matter WHERE the money comes from, we are under an obligation to share it as described in 2 Corinthians:
8I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others. 9For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
10And here is my advice about what is best for you in this matter: Last year you were the first not only to give but also to have the desire to do so. 11Now finish the work, so that your eager willingness to do it may be matched by your completion of it, according to your means. 12For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what he does not have.
13Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, 15as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Acts.18
1. [3] And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
2Thes.3
1. [10] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
2Cor.12
1. [14] Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.
1Cor.9
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
1Tim.5
[17] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
[19] Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
[20] Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
There are also ways of making money that also provide a clear benefit to people - David running the Christian web sites for example.
I sure wish you would show me where I am making money from running Christian web sites? Please don't talk about things you know nothing about.
Thank you.
P.S. Again if you are fleecing the flock and taking the money they are meaning to give to God on yourself, your are WRONG. If you want to spend it on yourself GET A JOB!! Stop robbing God's people so you can live in luxury.
You are still missing the point. There is a big difference in spending money you made in an honest job and spending money you took up in a collection from God's people.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
This is the point!!!!!! She got her money from God's people! It is not her's. If she got it from working a secular job, then that would be different, BUT she is getting it from God's people who give it to her because they think she is using it all to spread the gospel, not to make herself RICH.
Ephesians 4:28 (NIV)
He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
If she wants money of her own she needs to stop fleecing the flock and start a secular business where the money would then be hers to do as she pleases. And she would need to start the business with money she got from actually working and not fleecing to start that business. People think they are giving to God, but are actually giving to her so she can pad her pockets.
It is not right!
Period
Matthew 21:12 -13(KJV)
12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
This really angered the Lord Jesus Christ and He refered to them as THIEVES.
People need to open their eyes and wake up. We are not to sale the gospel.
GET A JOB if you are out to be rich, don't steal it from God's people.
I don't think that it matters whether it came from christians or not. The point with Joyce Meyer from what I have seen posted from Rose is that she has made money preaching a false doctrine rather than simply because it has come from Christians. If someone makes money from a secular method but that is also deceiving people in some way I see it as no different.
For me there are two issues - how you have made your money and then what you do with it. Clearly there are sinful and non sinful ways of making money, whether or not these are related to christians or not. There are also ways of making money that also provide a clear benefit to people - David running the Christian web sites for example.
For me if you have the ability to make money and honour God at the same time then that is something to be very thankful for. If you make money through secular or non-secular means in a non-sinful way that is also something to be very thankful for. If you make money in a sinful way (as has been suggested of Joyce Meyer) then it is equally bad whether it is secular or nonsecular.
Once you have your money, you can then choose what you do with it. Clearly spending ridiculous amounts of money on cars etc is not honouring god and He's not going to be too happy with you. Whether you spend 2% or 50% of your money on things that honour God (helping the poor etc), if you are doing all that you can you are doing what Jesus expects. You may be poor, so that 2% is a large amount of money for you, or you may be very rich so 10% is like coins down the back of the sofa.
I find this issue hard, and to be honest I am not very good at following what I know to be right here. I don't have kids and the needs of my wife and I are few, yet I do not use all my spare money to honour God. I critise Joyce Meyer for spending $17,000 on a bathtub (or whatever it was) yet I will still spend $300 on a new camera lens in a moment of consumerism and not think about what else I could do with the money. I remember the passage from Matthew:
"1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. "
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
You should listen to the below message:
Prosperity Gospel Lie
Thank you,
David
Very, very, good. I am listening to it as I type this message. THAT is on point and is very in line with the word of God! I love it!
I couldn't have said it any better myself.
I like the way he talks, he has a real strong thick powerful voice. Very convincing.
Those scriptures used by him are not twisted! I am so glad that I am listening to it.
This is a real blessing.
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
So let me ask you. I am assuming that you have SOME money yourself. Would you care to inspire us on how to use all OUR money for the glory of God by telling us how YOU are currently using "all your money for the glory of God"?
Be blessed.
Eden
Well you assume wrong, Eden, I have no money myself.
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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BrianGrass1234
Advanced Member
Member # 5845
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posted
How about this, If your giving your money while expecting to get more back than you gave. Your wrong. If you are asking for money, while promising that God will bless them with more money for giving. Your wrong. If you are taking money that was given for God and using it for yourself selfishly. Your wrong.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
bought@paid4,
We do not teach the Prosperity Gospel on this message board. You where told this when you sign up:
Note the below is in the sign up form:
This message boards purpose it to bring glory and honor to the Lord Jesus Christ not to man. We do not promote the prosperity gospel preachers on this message board. You have been asked not to teach this false gospel. There will be no warning from here on, you will just be removed from this message board. This is not debatable.
So if you continue you will be banned.
You should listen to the below message:
Prosperity Gospel Lie
Thank you,
David
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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bought@paid4
Advanced Member
Member # 6110
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posted
2 Corinthians 8:7-9 (King James Version)
"Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."
So you assume that the word "rich" there only means rich in one or some ways but not in others; namely in material possessions or too many cows? Okay what is too much money then? Who gets to decide where the line is drawn? Is it okay to own a car, or only a certain make/model/year? If it's not okay to own a car, what make/model or bicycle is not "worldy goods"?
And if it's ungodly to own a bicycle, then what make/model of sneakers is not "worldy goods"?
Is it okay for me to buy Breyers ice cream or is that too "worldy"; would Blue Bell be more holy?
And what about wedding rings? They are made of gold, and diamonds, and silver, and platinum, and many precious things. That's "worldly goods" according to you isn't it? I guess we shouldn't buy those if we want to be Christians.
And BTW, you never answered these questions:
You don't agree that Jesus was rich (not only in power but in posessions)before He came to the earth in the flesh? Is God not rich? Are you saying that God is not and never has been rich in goods/ material things?
Who do you think created gold, silver, precious stones, hides with the ability to be tanned into leather, etc? Was it not God? So how then can you call them "worldly goods"? If God created them, and he did, then they cannot be evil, and he put them here for a our use.
You're not making any sense, Itty Bitty. Answer the questions, please.
Posts: 26 | From: Missouri | Registered: Sep 2006
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
After all, Joyce Myer did not get rich preaching Buddha or preaching Allah; she got rich preaching Jesus, Amen? Hallelujah!
My question still kinda is, eventhough she washes at a $17,000 faucet (acc to IBG), why can the money not be considered fully hers, just like my money is completely mine?
I mean, it is up to me what I do with my money, isn't it? And if so, why is Joyce Myer excluded from owning her own money and making her own decisions of what to do with it? I mean, she is probably as surprised as anyone that this happened to her.Eden
This is the point!!!!!! She got her money from God's people! It is not her's. If she got it from working a secular job, then that would be different, BUT she is getting it from God's people who give it to her because they think she is using it all to spread the gospel, not to make herself RICH.
Ephesians 4:28 (NIV)
He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
If she wants money of her own she needs to stop fleecing the flock and start a secular business where the money would then be hers to do as she pleases. And she would need to start the business with money she got from actually working and not fleecing to start that business. People think they are giving to God, but are actually giving to her so she can pad her pockets.
It is not right!
Period
Matthew 21:12 -13(KJV)
12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
This really angered the Lord Jesus Christ and He refered to them as THIEVES.
People need to open their eyes and wake up. We are not to sale the gospel.
GET A JOB if you are out to be rich, don't steal it from God's people.
--------------------
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
I think bought@paid4 is right when he or she says that Jesus meant that it is hard for a rich man to get saved because a rich man trusts in his riches and has no need of God. He or she is thinking that they got all this riches by himself or herself.
Both rich AND poor people have to decide whether Jesus died for them on or not, but rich people have the added obstacle of selfmade man to overcome, which poor people generally do not have to overcome.
But in a case of Joyce Myer, she is a rich woman, but she got saved when she was "po'or" and now she is a saved rich woman.
After all, Joyce Myer did not get rich preaching Buddha or preaching Allah; she got rich preaching Jesus, Amen? Hallelujah!
My question still kinda is, eventhough she washes at a $17,000 faucet (acc to IBG), why can the money not be considered fully hers, just like my money is completely mine?
I mean, it is up to me what I do with my money, isn't it? And if so, why is Joyce Myer excluded from owning her own money and making her own decisions of what to do with it? I mean, she is probably as surprised as anyone that this happened to her.
But Itty-Bitty Girl, you said in your post above something like (I can't copy so I have to try to remember): "all the money should be used for the glory of God".
So let me ask you. I am assuming that you have SOME money yourself. Would you care to inspire us on how to use all OUR money for the glory of God by telling us how YOU are currently using "all your money for the glory of God"?
Be blessed.
Eden
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by bought@paid4:
Itty biity wrote:
quote:
Okay, okay, okay.
That passage is NOT talking about money. To say such a thing is disgusting, I hate when people do that. It makes me sick.
I saw a preacher on T.V. do that last year and it made me so mad. That "worldly rich jesus ploy" is just one of the many ploys of people who corrupt the word of God and pervert the gospel of Christ.
Just despicable twisting of the scripture. I really do hate that.
In full context:
2 Corinthians 8:7-9 (King James Version)
"Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."
Okay then, what did he become poor in? He didn't become poor in faith, love, diligence, or grace. So what exactly do you think he became poor in?
I thought I told you already. Here it is in more detail:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Though he was rich, as being God, equal in power and glory with the Father, yet he not only became man for us, but became poor also. At length he emptied himself, as it were, to ransom their souls by his sacrifice on the cross. From what riches, blessed Lord, to what poverty didst thou descend for our sakes! and to what riches hast thou advanced us through thy poverty! It is our happiness to be wholly at thy disposal."
That's pretty clear there. The riches are eternal life, he came that we have an abundance of spiritual life, not worldly riches.
Jesus came that we might have life, and life abundantly.
Jesus was rich with life, as being God. Yet he not only became man, but he became poor, too.
Jesus emptied himself, he became poor without life.
Jesus died, he had no life, by him having no life, he paid the price for us with his sacrifice so that we could be rich with life, like him.
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bought@paid4
Advanced Member
Member # 6110
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posted
Itty biity wrote:
quote:
Okay, okay, okay.
That passage is NOT talking about money. To say such a thing is disgusting, I hate when people do that. It makes me sick.
I saw a preacher on T.V. do that last year and it made me so mad. That "worldly rich jesus ploy" is just one of the many ploys of people who corrupt the word of God and pervert the gospel of Christ.
Just despicable twisting of the scripture. I really do hate that.
In full context:
2 Corinthians 8:7-9 (King James Version)
"Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."
Okay then, what did he become poor in? He didn't become poor in faith, love, diligence, or grace. So what exactly do you think he became poor in?
You don't agree that Jesus was rich (not only in power but in posessions)before He came to the earth in the flesh? Is God not rich? Are you saying that God is not and never has been rich in goods/ material things?
Posts: 26 | From: Missouri | Registered: Sep 2006
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by bought@paid4:
Itty bitty girl,
You have to take into consideration the whole of God's word about each subject to be able to understand what God is telling us. You can't pick and choose a couple little verses and ignore the many verses that say different than what you concluded from those few little verses.
Here are some more verses about God's will for our prosperity:
In Luke chapter 12 we can clearly see that Jesus was not against anyone being rich, but against coverousness, greed, selfishness.
In verse 21 he says, "So is he that lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." So is he what? see verse 20 "Thou fool...".
Jesus was simply saying that someone who hords wealth is foolish because life is not about how much you can accumilate here. Then Jesus goes on to say that God will provide all we need; plus more.
verse 27
Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Verse 28
If then God so clothe the grass which is today in the field, and tomarrow cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith?
Did you catch that? Solomon was the richest man that ever lived; God clothes the grass with lillies which are clothed much better than Solomon ever was; God will clothe you even better than the lilies which were clothed better than Sololmon ever was.
In verse 31 and 32 Jesus said instead of trying on your own, as the world does, to seek after all these riches, seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you. The Kingdom of God is inside of us when we get born again, so once we get born again, part of our covenant blessings is therefore prosperity.
Aw, you just buchered yet even more scripture. I can't stand this.
This is not good.
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by bought@paid4:
2. Corinthians 8: 9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.
That's pretty clear there. Jesus became poor to provide us blessings of prosperity. Jesus also took stripes to provide our physical healing. Jesus shed his blood on the cross for the remission of our sins. Prosperity, healing, and forgiveness are all included in our blood covenant with God.
Jesus was rich in heaven before He came to earth and He is rich again. If being rich is a sin than God is guilty which is impossible because God cannot and does not sin. If it is a sin for us, it is a sin for Him as well. You can't have it both ways. God is righteous and He fully lives by the righteousness of the law that He gave to us.
What is the harm in people being rich? God doesn't think there's harm in it. He wants us blessed. God does not want us to suffer and be in lack. Being poor does not make us holy. Only the blood of Jesus makes us holy.
Okay, okay, okay.
That passage is NOT talking about money. To say such a thing is disgusting, I hate when people do that. It makes me sick.
I saw a preacher on T.V. do that last year and it made me so mad. That "worldly rich jesus ploy" is just one of the many ploys of people who corrupt the word of God and pervert the gospel of Christ.
Just despicable twisting of the scripture. I really do hate that.
In full context:
2 Corinthians 8:7-9 (King James Version)
"Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich."
"Enforces this by their gifts, and by the love and grace of Christ.
Faith is the root; and as without faith it is not possible to please God, Heb 11:6, so those who abound in faith, will abound in other graces and good works also; and this will work and show itself by love. Great talkers are not always the best doers; but these Corinthians were diligent to do, as well as to know and talk well. To all these good things the apostle desires them to add this grace also, to abound in charity to the poor. The best arguments for Christian duties, are drawn from the grace and love of Christ.
Though he was rich, as being God, equal in power and glory with the Father, yet he not only became man for us, but became poor also. At length he emptied himself, as it were, to ransom their souls by his sacrifice on the cross. From what riches, blessed Lord, to what poverty didst thou descend for our sakes! and to what riches hast thou advanced us through thy poverty! It is our happiness to be wholly at thy disposal."
Source cited: http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=55&source=2&seq=i.54.8.2
That's pretty clear there. The riches are eternal life, he came that we have an abundance of spiritual life, not worldly riches.
Jesus came that we might have life, and life abundantly.
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bought@paid4
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posted
Do you not rememer the story of King Solomon? God told him He would give him whatever he desired (even if it were riches). Solomon asked for wisdom so God made him both the wisest and wealthiest man to ever live (still the wealthiest ever to this day).
Job was blessed by God. It WAS NOT God that stole from Job, it was the devil. God DID NOT USE THE DEVIL to harm Job. He DID NOT give the devil permission to harm Job. It was Job's own fears that the devil used to steal, kill, and destroy Job and his family. Job's "wonderful" religious, self righteous friends accused Job of doing something wrong that God was punishing him for. Read the end of the book those of you who say God did this to Job. God Himself says at the end of the book of Job that He did not do this to him. Then God gave Job (who was previously a very rich man) double what Satan stole from him. So then Job was an exceptionally rich man and God made him that way.
What gifts were Jesus given at his birth?
Gold, frankensence, and myrh. All gifts from rich men to him and his parents. God sent those rich men there to give him those gifts and to worship Him.
Abraham was rich and God made him that way.
God blessed Joseph (by making him second in command to the Pharoah, and Joseph's family through the blessings of Joseph).
God made Ruth rich by providing her with a rich husband named Boaz.
God made the Israelites rich when the exited Egypt.
God told the Israelites to plunder each and every place they conquered. They were very rich because of this.
Itty bitty girl,
You have to take into consideration the whole of God's word about each subject to be able to understand what God is telling us. You can't pick and choose a couple little verses and ignore the many verses that say different than what you concluded from those few little verses.
Here are some more verses about God's will for our prosperity:
In Luke chapter 12 we can clearly see that Jesus was not against anyone being rich, but against coverousness, greed, selfishness.
In verse 21 he says, "So is he that lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God." So is he what? see verse 20 "Thou fool...".
Jesus was simply saying that someone who hords wealth is foolish because life is not about how much you can accumilate here. Then Jesus goes on to say that God will provide all we need; plus more.
verse 27
Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Verse 28
If then God so clothe the grass which is today in the field, and tomarrow cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith?
Did you catch that? Solomon was the richest man that ever lived; God clothes the grass with lillies which are clothed much better than Solomon ever was; God will clothe you even better than the lilies which were clothed better than Sololmon ever was.
In verse 31 and 32 Jesus said instead of trying on your own, as the world does, to seek after all these riches, seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you. The Kingdom of God is inside of us when we get born again, so once we get born again, part of our covenant blessings is therefore prosperity.
2. Corinthians 8: 9
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that you through his poverty might be rich.
That's pretty clear there. Jesus became poor to provide us blessings of prosperity. Jesus also took stripes to provide our physical healing. Jesus shed his blood on the cross for the remission of our sins. Prosperity, healing, and forgiveness are all included in our blood covenant with God.
Jesus was rich in heaven before He came to earth and He is rich again. If being rich is a sin than God is guilty which is impossible because God cannot and does not sin. If it is a sin for us, it is a sin for Him as well. You can't have it both ways. God is righteous and He fully lives by the righteousness of the law that He gave to us.
What is the harm in people being rich? God doesn't think there's harm in it. He wants us blessed. God does not want us to suffer and be in lack. Being poor does not make us holy. Only the blood of Jesus makes us holy.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Where is the humility in the lavishing of self?
You need to keep it real and give to the needy, what since does it make to buy and drive a $200,000 car, passing by needy homeless people starving on the streets?
Whhhhyyyyyyyyyy, why does this this world seem so cold? It's just like a rich man, that won't give a pot of gold.
I like that song called "why": Avant - "Why"
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by bought@paid4:
Matthew 19: 23- 26
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus, beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Jesus was saying that rich people were hard to get saved because they trust in themselves and their own riches and don't think they have need of God, but he also said that with God it is possible to get rich people saved.
No, he wasn't.
Jesus was not saying that. Jesus said "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
You can't hold on to worldly wealth for your own selfish purposes, you are to give it all to God, leave that worldy stuff behind and use all that you have for God's glory.
Riches are never to be for the lavishing of self, riches are never to be hoarded up for yourself.
Where is the humility in the lavishing of self?
You need to keep it real and give to the needy, what since does it make to buy and drive a $200,000 car, passing by needy homeless people starving on the streets?
Matthew 19:23-19:30
"Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. "
quote:
Originally posted by bought@paid4:
2 Corinthians 6: 10
As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing all things.
If it's a sin to be rich than why are they rich enough to make others rich while all the while remaining humble as a poor person in heart?
Why do you think that "rich" and "poor" refers to money in this passage? This scripture is refering to the "rich" and "poor" in spirit.
The "matter of the heart ploy" never ceases to annoy me.
It's just too stupid.
I just keep adressing that "matter of the heart ploy". That ploy promotes the false prosperity doctrine, the doctrine of greed and covetousness.
I will address that ploy as I have before now again:
And as for the heart...
Matthew 6:19-21: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
quote:
Originally posted by bought@paid4:
2 Corinthians 9:10
Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
They were rich and helped the poor causing God to be praised. God gets no glory from poverty.
And if there are no rich people and everyone is poor, who can help the poor as Jesus commanded?
God gets no glory from rich people hoarding up their wealth and lavishing themselves, and not giving to the poor.
Where is your proof that "They were rich"? I don't see it.
I don't even believe that it is there, I just believe that you are jumping to conclusions, because the passage does not even say that the people are rich.
You don't have to be rich to "help the poor".
2 Corinthians 9:9-12
"(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;"
quote:
Originally posted by bought@paid4:
Galatians 2: 10
Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
If God wants us all poor, then why are we suppose to help the poor? And how can we help anyone if we are poor? And if God desires us to help the poor than obviously he doesn't want any of us to be poor.
Who said that God wants us all poor?
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bought@paid4
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Matthew 19: 23- 26
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus, beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Jesus was saying that rich people were hard to get saved because they trust in themselves and their own riches and don't think they have need of God, but he also said that with God it is possible to get rich people saved.
2 Corinthians 6: 10
As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, yet possessing all things.
If it's a sin to be rich then why are they rich enough to make others rich while all the while remaining humble as a poor person in heart?
2 Corinthians 9:10
Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
They were rich and helped the poor causing God to be praised. God gets no glory from poverty.
And if there are no rich people and everyone is poor, who can help the poor as Jesus commanded?
Galatians 2: 10
Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
If God wants us all poor, then why are we suppose to help the poor? And how can we help anyone if we are poor? And if God desires us to help the poor than obviously he doesn't want any of us to be poor.
Psalm 41: 1
Blessed is he that considereth the poor. The Lord will deliver him in time of trouble.
Psalm 49: 1- 2; 6-7; 16
Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world: Both low and high, rich and poor, together.
They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitutude of their riches; None of them can by any means redeem his brother, not give to God a ransom for him
Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
There is no sin in being rich. I can however make people believe and behave in ways which are sinful. Yet all the money in the world will not save their own souls (or their brothers) from their sinful state. All their money profits them nothing when they die, because they can't take it with them. However, if they go to heaven, they will be rich again. Which brings me to another point:
Did not Jesus himself pray, "May your will be done on earth as it is in heaven?" God's will for us in heaven is to be blessed in every way. We will be rich, well, and whole there, so that is what He wants for us here.
Psalm 68: Thy congregation hath dwelt therin: thou, O God, hast prepared of they goodness for the poor.
Seems God wants the poor to be blessed, not remain poor.
Psalm 70: 5
But I am poor and needy: make haste unto me, O God: thou art my help and my deliverer; O Lord, make no tarrying.
Psalm 82: 4- 5
Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy; rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
Here God will deliver the poor and needy from the hands of their wicked oppressors who seek to keep them poor and needy.
Psalm 112
Praise ye the Lord, Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord, that delighteth greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon the earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed. WEALTH AND RICHES shall be in house: and his righteousness endureth for ever. Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness: he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous. A good man showeth favor, and lendeth: he will guide his affairs with discretion. Surely he shall not be moved for ever: the righteousness shall be everlasting rememberance. He shall not be afraid of evil tidings: his heart is fixed, trusting in the Lord. His heart is established, he shall not be afraid, until he sees his desire upon his enemies. He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth forever; hi shorn shalll be exalted with honor. The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 14: 21
He that despises his neighbor sins: but he that has mercy on the poor, happy is he.
Are you telling me that God wants us to have mercy on the poor but He won't? Are you saying that God wants us (including ministers) to be poor? Are you saying he will not do what he commands us to do?
Proverbs 19: 17
He that has pitty on the poor lends unto the Lord; and that which he has given will He pay him again.
Proverbs 22: 2
The rich and poor meet together: and the LORD IS THE MAKER OF THEM ALL.
At the same time God tells us:
Proverbs 23: 4
Labor not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.
Why? This is talking about greed. It is okay to be prosperous and indeed God promises to bless the work of our hands to make us that way. However, there is a difference in working to provide for you and yours (and with the purpose to give to the poor and ministers etc)and just wanting to build bigger barns to sit on your wealth and say, "Look at me and all I have accomplished." God will give to those who will use their wealth for the good of others instead of selfishly sitting on it.
Proverbs 31: 9
Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.
The Proverbs 31 wife runs a household, more than one business to help provide for her family but she also gives out of her wealth to the poor.
Proverbs 31: 20
She stretches out her hand the poor...
Genisis 13: 2
And Abraham was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
I. Timothy 6: 17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high- minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the liviing God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy; that they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute....
Proverbs 10: 4
He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.
Proverbs 10: 22
The blessing of the Lord, it makes rich, and he adds no sorrow with it.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said, in so many words (my copy function doesn't work), "when did I ever say that you are robbing God if you don't give to me. Are you lying on me, Eden?"
Eden here: I think you said that the Word-of-Faith teachers say that (not to rob God so you must give me your money) to their congregation to get the congregation to give them money. You called that fleecing the flock, remember?
"a kind word turns away wrath, a harsh word stirs it up".
Be blessed.
Eden
This is an example that I used as one of the common ploys that false teachers use in order to fleece the flock:"You obey God and give money to me, or you are robbing God."
You see, no one can force anyone to "faithfully give". Those false teachers may not hold them down and take what they give, but they uses their diabolical words to oppress them and munipulate them into giving them it. They munipulate WITH LIES, TALL TALES, MYTHS, FABLES.
They may say things like this:
"You obey God by giving your money to me, or God is not going to bless you."
"You obey God and give money to me, or you are robbing God."
Word-Of-Faith teachers such as Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen are on the same level as cult leader Warren Jeffs (FLDS Church "false prophet")
Word-Of-Faith teachers do crooked and evil things all in the name of their God as other cult leaders do, but the Word-Of-Faith movement is more subtle though.
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Eden
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Hi, Itty-Bitty Girl. You said, in so many words (my copy function doesn't work), "when did I ever say that you are robbing God if you don't give to me. Are you lying on me, Eden?"
Eden here: I think you said that the Word-of-Faith teachers say that (not to rob God so you must give me your money) to their congregation to get the congregation to give them money. You called that fleecing the flock, remember?
"a kind word turns away wrath, a harsh word stirs it up".
Be blessed.
Eden
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Itty-Bitty Girl,
I used copy and paste on the scripture portion from a Bible program, that uses KJV.
I am not KJV only, so if you want to use another version that would be fine with me.
I changed nothing from the KJV, so if the scripture portion is twisted, someone who made the Bible program did it,
though I doubt seriously that is the case.
Do you find something twisted in the statement I made on - God the Holy Spirit?
Where is this agenda in -
Did Jesus die for all?
Was His Blood shed to save, heal and deliver all who would receive?
Does He want all souls to prosper?
Just to be clear and not to hide an "agenda",
I would answer all three of these questions "yes".
If your answers don't match mine fine.
If you don't want to give explination on your opinion of the healing of the leper and its association to respect of persons, showing that it isn't God's will to be heal all, that's fine;
just though you might explain you position.
If the portion I edited offended you, I did try to edit it quickly, just not quick enough.
I give apology, as I said before, it wasn't appropriate.
T7
I said that it LOOKS like twisted scripture, I did not say that it was twisted scripture.
"Twisting scripture" is taking something pure in the bible and corrupting it by taking it out of context.
I told you that I was not able to process it, and that it needed to be broken down.
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Thunderz7
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Itty-Bitty Girl,
I used copy and paste on the scripture portion from a Bible program, that uses KJV.
I am not KJV only, so if you want to use another version that would be fine with me.
I changed nothing from the KJV, so if the scripture portion is twisted, someone who made the Bible program did it,
though I doubt seriously that is the case.
Do you find something twisted in the statement I made on - God the Holy Spirit?
Where is this agenda in -
Did Jesus die for all?
Was His Blood shed to save, heal and deliver all who would receive?
Does He want all souls to prosper?
Just to be clear and not to hide an "agenda",
I would answer all three of these questions "yes".
If your answers don't match mine fine.
If you don't want to give explination on your opinion of the healing of the leper and its association to respect of persons, showing that it isn't God's will to be heal all, that's fine;
just though you might explain you position.
If the portion I edited offended you, I did try to edit it quickly, just not quick enough.
I give apology, as I said before, it wasn't appropriate.
T7
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Maybe you could explain how Jesus willed that the leper be healed, thus respecting him more than these persons, you say, it is not his will to heal.
Everyone is not supposed to be healed, because no one, not even a sick person, can prevent God's will from happening.
If there are still sick Christians in the world, while it is God's will that they all be healed, then man is frustrating the will of God.
That sounds like something that Joel Osteen would preach...
Joel Osteen, one of the members of the Word-Of-Faith cult preaches that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. According to Joel Osteen, the Lord so desperately wants to give us our heart's desires, but we(mortal man) frustrate His will of blessing for our lives.
All the while, scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes:
Daniel 4:35 (King James Version)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Itt-Bitty Girl ask
quote:
So by this are you saying that a sick person is going against the will of God, and is preventing God's will from happening?
NO, that is not what I said.
By the time I read my post, decide the end wasn't appropriate, and went back to edit it, you had already read it, quoted it, asked a question and posted;
you aren't just sitting on this thread a you? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
T7
a you?
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Itt-Bitty Girl says
quote:
This looks to me like a bunch of twisted scripture to fit your agenda, T7.
I'm not even sure that I can process this.
This really needs to be broken down.
What agenda might that be?
T7
Answer that question, yourself, T7.
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Thunderz7
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posted
Itt-Bitty Girl says
quote:
This looks to me like a bunch of twisted scripture to fit your agenda, T7.
I'm not even sure that I can process this.
This really needs to be broken down.
What agenda might that be?
T7
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Thunderz7
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Itt-Bitty Girl ask
quote:
So by this are you saying that a sick person is going against the will of God, and is preventing God's will from happening?
NO, that is not what I said.
By the time I read my post, decide the end wasn't appropriate, and went back to edit it, you had already read it, quoted it, asked a question and posted;
you aren't just sitting on this thread a you?
T7
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
by Itty-Bitty Girl
quote:
There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.
Mt.8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Maybe you could explain how Jesus willed that the leper be healed, thus respecting him more than these persons, you say, it is not his will to heal.
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
God the Holy Spirit wishes/wills that we prosper and be in health as our souls prosper.
Did Jesus die for all?
Was His Blood not shed to save, heal and deliver all who would receive?
Does He not want all souls to prosper?
T7
This looks to me like a bunch of twisted scripture to fit your agenda, T7.
I'm not even sure that I can process this.
This really needs to be broken down.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
by Itty-Bitty Girl
quote:
There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.
Mt.8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Maybe you could explain how Jesus willed that the leper be healed, thus respecting him more than these persons, you say, it is not his will to heal.
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
God the Holy Spirit wishes/wills that we prosper and be in health as our souls prosper.
Did Jesus die for all?
Was His Blood not shed to save, heal and deliver all who would receive?
Does He not want all souls to prosper?
Sometimes even those who don,t attend a mainline denominational group are still under the influence of man-made denominational doctrine and brainwash.
T7
So by this are you saying that a sick person is going against the will of God, and is preventing God's will from happening?
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Thunderz7
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by Itty-Bitty Girl
quote:
There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.
Mt.8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Maybe you could explain how Jesus willed that the leper be healed, thus respecting him more than these persons, you say, it is not his will to heal.
3 John 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
God the Holy Spirit wishes/wills that we prosper and be in health as our souls prosper.
Did Jesus die for all?
Was His Blood not shed to save, heal and deliver all who would receive?
Does He not want all souls to prosper?
T7
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Hmmmm. I wonder, do such people holding to the prosperity doctrine, such as the WORD OF FAITH cult, also twist verses in Malachi to fit their sick agendas?
Yes. It has been proven. Those people should be ashamed of their actions.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Oh, I find is strange that this MODERN-DAY TEACHING of tithing(10 percent of gross income from all sources) is linked to the prosperity doctrine.
I have found such a link.
quote:
Modern-Day Teachings
In recent years, tithing has been taught in Christian circles as a form of "stewardship" that God requires of Christians.
The primary argument is that God has never formally "abolished" the tithe, and thus Christians should pay the tithe (usually calculated at 10 percent of all gross income from all sources), usually to the local congregation
(though some teach that a part of the tithe can go to other Christian ministries, so long as total giving is at least 10 percent).
Some holding to prosperity theology doctrines go even further, teaching that God will bless those who tithe and curse those who do not.
***
Opponents argue that the only Biblical references to the tithe occurred (or referenced events that occurred) during the period of Mosaic Law, applicable only to Jews.
They further argue that Jesus taught He came to "fulfill" the Law, which they believe occurred at His crucifixion,
and therefore Christians are no longer obligated to pay a minimum amount, but should give only as God specifically directs them to do (which may be more or less than 10 percent).
Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe#Old_Testament_origins
Hmmmm. I wonder, do such people holding to the prosperity doctrine, such as the WORD OF FAITH cult, also twist verses in Malachi to fit their sick agendas?
It has been proven that they do.
The Word-Of-Faith cult leaders continue to remind me a little of Warren Jeffs, the FLDS cult leader.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Finally, some who argue for tithing say that it predates the Law, as in the case of Abram, yet they use a passage of scripture like Malachi chapter 3 that was appropriate under the law, to support their argument. This is another theological contradiction. In conclusion, the Malachi text should not be used to badger God's people to give.
I love it, I love it. Amen to all of that. Very well written.
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
My question is, does giving a donation at a favorite speaker and buy the tape and books by that favorite speaker constitute "bringing tithes into the storehouse"?
Eden
Well it remindes me of the below:
John 2:14-16 (NIV)
In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market!”
Sounds like the samething to me. Trying to make a buck off the gospel.
:::::::::::::::::
Malachi 3:10 (KJV)
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, ...
They always forget that it is so "there may be meat in mine house,"
It does not say to bring in tithes into the storehouse so you can build a bigger house, nor so you can stuff your wallet. Seems this part always gets left out. This means food in my house, so the needy can be feed.
The most commonly quoted passage on tithing in the OT is Malachi 3:8-12. Question: which one of the three tithes is referred to in verse 10? Those who advocate tithing on the basis of this verse rarely state which particular tithe is meant here. A parallel passage in Deuteronomy 26:12-15 confirms that Malachi refers to the "whole tithe" i.e. the third year tithe which was the only tithe wholly given away. The only tithe to reach ""my house" i.e. the temple in Jerusalem, was the tithe that the Levites took there. Nehemiah explains how this tithe got to the "storehouse" in Jerusalem (10:37-38). It was from this third year tithe that the Levites in turn gave a tithe to the temple priests (Numbers 18:26-28).
The Hebrew word "'outsar" (Strong's # 214) translated "storehouse" (NIV) in Malachi 3:10 is the same word in Nehemiah 10:38. The "storehouse" refers to a kind of temple warehouse, described in Nehemiah 13:5, as a place for keeping tithed grain, frankincense, temple vessels, wine and oil. The tithe in question was probably the tithe payable by the Levites, not the tithes payable by the people. Malachi was not rebuking the common people ("And now this admonition is for you, O priests." 2:1); he was rebuking the Levites.
"One must be careful in applying these promises (3:10-12) to believers today. The Mosaic Covenant, with its promises of material blessings to Israel for her obedience, is no longer in force (Ephesians 2:14-15; Romans 10:4; Hebrews 8:13). However, the NT speaks about generosity and giving. While not requiring a tithe of believers today, the NT does speak of God's blessing on those who give generously to the needs of the church and especially to those who labour in the Word (Acts 4:31-35; 2 Corinthians 9:6-12; Galatians 6:6; Philippians 4:14-19)." [9]
The idea that one's entire giving should be paid to the local church based on the identification of the local church with the "storehouse" (AV) of Malachi 3:10 i.e. the temple treasury, is very questionable and highly dangerous. The Christian life is not about rigid legalistic regulations insensitively imposed by a church leadership. That practice has resulted in the spiritual abuse and unfair manipulation of God's people.
The thrust of the book of Malachi may be summed up in verse 4 of chapter 4, "Remember the law of my servant Moses." But Christians live under the grace of God provided in Jesus Christ and do not live under the Mosaic Law (Romans 6:14-15; 7:4, 6; 8:3; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; 3:23-25). If one chooses to place oneself under the works of the law, like tithing, one places oneself under a curse because we cannot keep the law of Moses (Galatians 3:10-14). Here is the dilemma: observe part of the law and you are obliged to keep all of the law; enforce part of the old covenant and you must enforce all of it (Galatians 5:3).
Finally, some who argue for tithing say that it predates the Law, as in the case of Abram, yet they use a passage of scripture like Malachi chapter 3 that was appropriate under the law, to support their argument. This is another theological contradiction. In conclusion, the Malachi text should not be used to badger God's people to give.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Itty-Bitty Girl brought up Malachi's often used scripture, something about "God said not to rob Him, so if you must give to me".
And when did I bring up Malachi's often used scripture?
Are you lying on me, Eden?
If you have twisted my words in any way, shape or form, then you are a liar and a slanderer and you are not to ever be trusted by me ever again.
I'm too sick for your games today, okay?
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Eden
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Hi, David. You wrote: Help the needy, not the greedy.
Eden here:
That may work if the giving is to a homeless mission or a church, but when people flock to hear Joyce Myer speak, it is not about helping the needy, but neither is it exactly about helping the greedy.
My main point is that people WANT to go hear Joyce Myer speak, including, as I said earlier, many Bible-carrying and Bible-knowledgeable people.
I have a question, though. Does anyone know whether Joyce CHARGES A FEE for coming to hear her speak, or do people in the audience make DONATIONS.
I realize there is some peer pressure to give when one is among a crowd, most of whom are giving something. But does anyone know if the amount that people give to Joyce is voluntary or preset by Joyce, else "ya ain't coming in" type of thing?
Whether it is a preset fee or a donation is important, because if it is a donation, and no one is saying "you MUST buy this tape or book or else you are not getting out of the door", if I were a police investiator, I would have to say that "no crime was being committed here."
I'm reminded here of a statement one of you above made, that "don't trust any preacher 100%, but go home and check it out in the Bible to make sure that it is so."
Itty-Bitty Girl brought up Malachi's often used scripture, something about "God said not to rob Him, so if you must give to me".
However, isn't part of that group of verses also say that "God will open the windows of heaven" and "will rebuke the devourer for your sake", provided that you "bring your tithes into the storehouse."
My question is, does giving a donation at a favorite speaker and buy the tape and books by that favorite speaker constitute "bringing tithes into the storehouse"?
Thanks, and be blessed.
Eden
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KnowHim
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I sure think that when you think you HAVE to tithe you might as well keep it because your heart is not right. I will say it again. We are to give all we can, NOT just 10% and not to build a church building or pay the preacher. We are to give to help others and to spread the gospel. If you give because you think 10% is all that is required of you, then you are fooling yourself. God wants all of you. And when you give to a church that spends all their money on themselves and don't even have any left for missions you will surely answer to God for that. We are not told just to walk out and hand God's money to just anyone for any cause. We are to do as He told us and help the widows and orphans. When you are pressured into giving to the building fund or to pay hired clergy because they have a big ego to build an empire, you will answer for it. Why one would think that giving to a church rather then giving to someone in need, is giving to God I don't know. The preacher and the elders are NOT God. God don't horde for Himself, He gives and told us it is better to give then to receive. Please stop worshiping the religious machine and start worshiping God.
When you pressure God's people to give and take the money and spend it on your on needs and to build a bigger better building, your are surely robbing God. God don't live in a building anymore, but in the people that could be helped if the majority of the churches would stop hording it.
Preacher need to stop learning how to beg for money and learn how to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with the world. We are to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with the world be cause we love the people and want them saved, not so we can get their money and build a bigger building. I know this has to be the biggest turn off for non-christians.
A good rule of thumb is, if the preacher has to beg for money, then He don't know God. God owns it all and will bless His people without them having to beg. So give to good ministries that are not begging and then you will receive a blessing.
THE ENDTIME CHURCH AS PETER SAW IT
Peter describes the church in the latter days:
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily [secretly] shall bring in damnable [destructive, fatal, disastrous, ruinous] heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [lascivious, licentious, wanton] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness [greed, lust] shall they with feigned words MAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU" (II Pet. 2:1-3). Other renderings:
"Motivated by greed, they will exploit you with their counterfeit arguments" (Berkely Version).
"…in their lust they will exploit you with cunning arguments" (Moffatt Translation).
"In their greed for MONEY they will trade on your credulity with sheer fabrications"`(The New English Bible).
HELP THE NEEDY, NOT THE GREEDY
Give to the fatherless, the orphans, the strangers, the widows, the poor, and the needy, the homeless, and the beggar on the street, as God gives to you, the wherewithal. Give to reputable charities if you have extra. Give to your family members and relatives in need—don’t humiliate them by making them ask you first. Give to a neighbor in financial distress. Even when tipping someone, let it be a reflection of the One that you are representing in your Christian walk. Our God is a generous God—may you become generous also. Develop a "love for giving." Paul tells us in Acts 20:35b to:
Remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how He said, IT IS MORE BLESSED TO GIVE THAN TO RECEIVE
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Linda,
I just feel you are walking both sides of the fence here..we should give, but not tithe?
Regardless, I will agree to disagree with you on this one as I am at peace with giving my weekly tithe as you are apparently at keeping it.
Tracy, I am glad you are at peace with your tithing.
But really you have no idea what we give, or how often, or to whom, and I have no need to boast to you or anyone else about the frequency of our giving and I certainly will not waive around a 10% pinch of our income and tell you that we feel justified and at peace our giving. In our home we do not feel that 90% is ours to keep. In our home our giving is done prayerfully and the Lord leads us in our giving, and I am at peace with that.
But I will again caution you regarding the justness of your judgements and your bearing false witness against your brethren in things that you have no idea about.I believe that you called that Slander. Didn't you?
Amen to your posting, Linda.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Joel Osteen the wolf, said:
quote:
Sometimes it is hard for us to grasp that God wants us to prosper in every way...God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us. One of the most important Biblical principles that shows us how to prosper is the principle of sowing and reaping...
People tell me, "Joel, He is God. If He wants to bless me, He can." Friend, God works by laws. You can't expect to reap a harvest without first planting your seeds. If you will be faithful and do what God is asking you to do, God will do His part. Don't let the enemy deceive you into holding on to your seed--get it into the ground!
Joel Osteen, one of the members of the Word-Of-Faith cult preaches that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. According to Joel Osteen, the Lord so desperately wants to give us our heart's desires, but we(mortal man) frustrate His will of blessing for our lives.
All the while, scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes:
Daniel 4:35 (King James Version)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
How twisted and disgusting is that? I believe that Joel Osteen is trying to say that mortal man has the power to limit God.
That is disgusting.
When I hear cutthroat prosperity preachers twist more and more scripture, so that they can add to their own selfish gain, it proves their love of money.
1 Timothy 6:9-11
“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”
They try to make the word of God say as they will it to, and that truly disgusts me, it proves that these people have no love for God.
Joel Osteen is a money-hungry wolf!
Ruuuuuuuuun sheep! Ruunnnnn! Run for your lives!
Run sheep run, or Joel Osteen the wolf will eat your fat backs!
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
quote:
Linda,
I just feel you are walking both sides of the fence here..we should give, but not tithe?
Regardless, I will agree to disagree with you on this one as I am at peace with giving my weekly tithe as you are apparently at keeping it.
Tracy, I am glad you are at peace with your tithing.
But really you have no idea what we give, or how often, or to whom, and I have no need to boast to you or anyone else about the frequency of our giving and I certainly will not waive around a 10% pinch of our income and tell you that we feel justified and at peace our giving. In our home we do not feel that 90% is ours to keep. In our home our giving is done prayerfully and the Lord leads us in our giving, and I am at peace with that.
But I will again caution you regarding the justness of your judgements and your bearing false witness against your brethren in things that you have no idea about.I believe that you called that Slander. Didn't you?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pleasemaranatha
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posted
Think of this and enjoy. Smile and have joy from the words and annointing. Have peace and a great day in the Lord.
youtubeSandPatti
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
Joel Osteen the wolf, said:
quote:
Sometimes it is hard for us to grasp that God wants us to prosper in every way...God wants us to prosper financially, to have plenty of money, to fulfill the destiny He has laid out for us. One of the most important Biblical principles that shows us how to prosper is the principle of sowing and reaping...
People tell me, "Joel, He is God. If He wants to bless me, He can." Friend, God works by laws. You can't expect to reap a harvest without first planting your seeds. If you will be faithful and do what God is asking you to do, God will do His part. Don't let the enemy deceive you into holding on to your seed--get it into the ground!
Joel Osteen, one of the members of the Word-Of-Faith cult preaches that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. According to Joel Osteen, the Lord so desperately wants to give us our heart's desires, but we(mortal man) frustrate His will of blessing for our lives.
All the while, scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes:
Daniel 4:35 (King James Version)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
How twisted and disgusting is that? I believe that Joel Osteen is trying to say that mortal man has the power to limit God.
That is disgusting.
When I hear cutthroat prosperity preachers twist more and more scripture, so that they can add to their own selfish gain, it proves their love of money.
1 Timothy 6:9-11
“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”
They try to make the word of God say as they will it to, and that truly disgusts me, it proves that these people have no love for God.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
If it is the will of God that all Christians be rich, then why are there poor Christians?
There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.
It is OKAY for a Christian to be poor, as it is OKAY for a Christian to be sick.
EVERYONE is not going to be rich, as EVERYONE is not going to be healed.
It is NOT okay to say that the poor and sick are in that state because they have no favor -Aw man, there goes that "F" word again.
The word "favor" has been corrupted by wicked Word-Of-Faith heretic modern-day Pharisees. They don't see it because they are blinded by their own self righteousness.
The wicked modern-day Pharisees tear down the poor and sick, they degrade the poor and the sick.
It sickens me... It drives me to righteous anger. Word-Of-Faith cult and all of its supporters seem to have so much bitterness, they are being so judgmental about the poor and sick.
I feel they should be asking themselves. "What if I am grieving the Holy Spirit?
That a good post of mine. I like that one.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl: quote:
Originally posted by Post Patrol:
"Poor people like Prosperity," says Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University. "They hear it as aspirant. They hear, 'You can make it too--buy a car, get a job, get wealthy.' It can function as a form of liberation." It can also be exploitative. Outsiders, observes Milmon Harrison of the University of California at Davis, author of the book Righteous Riches, often see it as "another form of the church abusing people so ministers could make money."
Shame, shame, shame. Millions could be affected by this new powerful Word-Of-Faith heretic cult movement. I'm sure the devil is having a good laugh at this one.
Amen! And I do so hate to give him anything to laugh about. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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trafield
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Linda,
I just feel you are walking both sides of the fence here..we should give, but not tithe?
Regardless, I will agree to disagree with you on this one as I am at peace with giving my weekly tithe as you are apparently at keeping it.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Tracy: I dont seem to be able to say much of anything to you recently that you do not hear as something I do not feel or am not projecting or saying. It seems that what I say offends and if I say nothing that offends too. I am truly sorry for this. Perhaps you will pray that GOD will work on my communications skills, that what I am trying to express is heard exactly as I intended it when it left my keyboard.
For the rocord: I have no problem agreeing with you or praising you for the things that I see that you are right on about and there are many many things that I think that you are right on about. Always have been.
Tithing is not one of them. Sorry.
I have always been very specific about Semantics. I believe that GOD is also. I believe that Tithe is a specific doctrine...a legal term. I do not believe that the giving that we do is tithe. Tithe was ordered in a specific amount. Tithe was given in specific instance for specific purpose to specific people. The whole principle of tithe is different than the principles involved in the NT church's ministry to each other.
quote:
I do not think I have to proceed carefully with my statments at all. For I know studies show the vast number of people who attend church also do not give regularly. I have personally seen how difficult it is to get the majority of church-goers to do anything for the Lord except show up on Sunday and put their 90 minutes or so in. So I am very comfortable in my assumptions that the vast majority here also do not give regularly, especially if they feel that tithing is no longer valid.
If you dont think that you need to be cautious and you think that you have the knowledge to justly judge these things and have justly judged those you have in your mind judged then that is great. That is what matters. In the end we do all have to answer to GOD individually.
I felt the need to caution you and I did so. I hope that does not offend you.
I know that you have in times past felt the need to caution me as well, when you felt that I was on dangerous ground and I appreciated it. Even in those times when I also did not feel that I needed to be cautious. I may not always agree with you, or heed your warning, but it is good that we look out for each other and call each other to check ourselves when we are worried about one another. Iron sharpens Iron.
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trafield
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quote:
I agree that GOD desires HIS people to prosper. I agree that we cannot should not must not deny this. I think that you have no way of knowing what people here are giving or are not giving and so you should proceed with those kinds of judgments carefully as well as knowing what motivates someone to speak against fleecing the flock. I disagree with the Tithe for the new testiment church being scriptural. We have discussed this else where, but do not believe that there is scriptural support for "tithing" by the NT church, but I believe with all my heart that the NT church is called to give and give with JOY and thanksgiving, and give with ... with abundance... without restraint... give as much as we can give to the furthering of God's word and the ministry to the saints and the evangelism of the lost.
I do not think I have to proceed carefully with my statments at all. For I know studies show the vast number of people who attend church also do not give regularly. I have personally seen how difficult it is to get the majority of church-goers to do anything for the Lord except show up on Sunday and put their 90 minutes or so in. So I am very comfortable in my assumptions that the vast majority here also do not give regularly, especially if they feel that tithing is no longer valid.
quote:
There is far too much need and lack in our own local congregations that are not being met and we need to be looking at why.
Maybe because you teach against tithing?? Just a wild guess. ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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trafield
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quote:
I agree that GOD desires HIS people to prosper. I agree that we cannot should not must not deny this. I think that you have no way of knowing what people here are giving or are not giving and so you should proceed with those kinds of judgments carefully as well as knowing what motivates someone to speak against fleecing the flock. I disagree with the Tithe for the new testiment church being scriptural. We have discussed this else where, but do not believe that there is scriptural support for "tithing" by the NT church, but I believe with all my heart that the NT church is called to give and give with JOY and thanksgiving, and give with ... with abundance... without restraint... give as much as we can give to the furthering of God's word and the ministry to the saints and the evangelism of the lost.
Linda, no disrespect intended, but sometimes you act as if you would rather disagree than agree.
Well once again, there seems to be a semmantical parcing of terms here. So it seems you have a problem with the term "tithing" as it applies to the biblical ten percent, and "offering" as that above and beyond the required ten percent.
Wouldn't it have been much easier to just say that you agree with me?
As I showed in another thread, the collection of "financial offerings" (to put it in terms you can live with) in the New Testement church is very biblical.
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