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Author
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Topic: Joel Osteen: LIAR and WOLF in Lakewood Church pulpit - A Letter. (PART 1)
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Why would Joel Osteen teach that man has the power to invalidate God's forgiveness?
OOOOOOOOOOOO! I know. It is because Joel Osteen is a FALSE TEACHER with a FALSE GOSPEL!
Joel Osteen's twisted sugarcoated gospel leads people to hell.
His T.V. program should have a warning label on it. The label should read:
“CAUTION: Belief in tainted gospel message will cause an eternal burning sensation all over flesh, bone, and soul- IN HELL!”
They need to at least put that warning in fine print at the bottom of the T.V. screen or just have someone read it so fast that it is inaudible while the show is going off.
That is done on the infomercials when people don’t want potential buyers to know that what they are selling is snake oil.
This is addressed to potential buyers: Please, don’t buy a counterfeit gospel: It is not worth your soul.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Why would Joel Osteen teach that man has the power to invalidate God's forgiveness?
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
If the price has already been paid and the sins already forgiven of the unbeliever, as Osteen falsely preaches, then God is an unjust God who demands payment for sins twice:
once by His innocent Son on the cross, who was punished in the stead of His people; then again from the non-accepting sinner whom He sends to Hell to undergo eternal punishment.
Not even the secular judicial system requires payment from the exonerated defendant. Once declared ‘not guilty,’ he can never be tried or punished for the same crime again.
Yet Pastor Joel preaches a God more unjust than sinful men.
Now that gospel of Joel Osteen is truly disgusting.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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If the price has already been paid and the sins already forgiven of the unbeliever, as Osteen falsely preaches, then God is an unjust God who demands payment for sins twice:
once by His innocent Son on the cross, who was punished in the stead of His people; then again from the non-accepting sinner whom He sends to Hell to undergo eternal punishment.
Not even the secular judicial system requires payment from the exonerated defendant. Once declared ‘not guilty,’ he can never be tried or punished for the same crime again.
Yet Pastor Joel preaches a God more unjust than sinful men.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Joel Osteen fails to TELL THE TRUTH.
Joel Osteen is a fake preacher, he is NOT real at all.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
So in Joel Osteen's reality, Jesus fails to save, God's forgiveness is invalidated by man, and the blood of Jesus is not sufficient enough to wash away all sins.
What kind of jesus fails to save? What kind of god has his own forgiveness to man invalidated by man?
That is the false jesus and false god of Joel Osteen the wolf.
That is not the true Jesus and true God of the bible.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
If the sins of the unbeliever are forgiven already, as Joel Osteen falsely preaches...
Then Jesus, in shedding blood for them and also having already forgiven them of their sins, failed to save them because God's forgiveness just did not do them any good. What a tragedy.
If the sins of the unbeliever are forgiven already, as Joel Osteen falsely preaches...
Then the blood of Jesus alone, is not sufficient enough to wash away all sins because if it were so, both believer and unbeliever is forgiven already and saved by the blood shed for them, and no one has to believe in Christ to be saved.
So in Joel Osteen's reality, Jesus fails to save, God's forgiveness is invalidated by man, and the blood of Jesus is not sufficient enough to wash away all sins.
Joel Osteen teaches some wicked blasphemous things, he is such a wolf.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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You decieved, please flee the tainted twisted hellish doctrine of Joel Osteen that is scratching your itching ears, before it is too late.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
According to Joel Osteen, Salvation provided by Christ is null and void without man’s decision for Christ.
Oh, so in Joel Osteen's reality, Jesus has saved the unbeliever already by his blood and God has already forgiven the unbeliever of all their sins, but this is NOT ENOUGH.
NOT ENOUGH, according to Joel Osteen.
According to Joel Osteen, it is up to MAN to VALIDATE salvation by consenting to already being saved by Jesus and ACCEPTING the forgiveness that God has already given to us.
Joel Osteen preaches a false, man-pleasing gospel. God is not amused.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
quote:
"None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Joel Osteen Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]
Oh, I see now, Joel Osteen, so in other words, it's all on me and you. In your reality, we, mortal man, are the greater god, because us alone is what makes God's forgiveness valid, it is up to us to choose whether to accept this forgiveness that God hands to us on a silver platter. By accepting God's forgiveness, we validate God's forgiveness, and by rejecting it, we invalidate it.
Also in your reality, Joel, the power is not in the blood of Jesus, the power is in us. It is us, mortal man, who is powerful enough to validate or invalidate salvation though the blood of Jesus, God can't do that, but we can because according to your false gospel we, mortal man, are the greater god.
Salvation provided by Christ is null and void without man’s decision for Christ.
OOOOOO, now that is some disgusting and dangerous blasphemous doctrine right there, now THAT definately sounds like something pleasing to man.
Man LOVES it, God HATES it.
The flesh LOVES the heresy of Joel Osteen, but the heresy is contrary to the Spirit.
And the devil LOVES it when man is decieved by the heresies of Joel Osteen.
Why wouldn't someone of the WORLD just LOVE this false Gospel?
Just look at all the POWER of MORTAL MAN over God.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Flee from the damnable doctrine of Joel Osteen, the blasphemous man-pleasing heretical wolf.
Don't let him devour you with his deceit!
The Word of Faith movement is a CULT.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Dear Lakewood church, please flee from the hateful blasphemous hellish doctrines of a wolf, Joel Osteen.
Joel Osteen is a man pleaser, he is not a pleaser of God!
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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If the sins of the unbeliever are forgiven already, as Joel Osteen falsely preaches...
Then Jesus, in shedding blood for them and also having already forgiven them of their sins, failed to save them because God's forgiveness just did not do them any good. What a tragedy.
If the sins of the unbeliever are forgiven already, as Joel Osteen falsely preaches...
Then the blood of Jesus alone, is not sufficient enough to wash away all sins because if it were so, both believer and unbeliever is forgiven already and saved by the blood shed for them, and no one has to believe in Christ to be saved.
So in Joel Osteen's reality, Jesus fails to save, God's forgiveness is invalidated by man, and the blood of Jesus is not sufficient enough to wash away all sins.
So I asked Mr. Joel Osteen the wolf:
quote:
"If Jesus fails to save because God's forgiveness is not enough, and if the blood of Jesus alone is not sufficient to wash away all sins, then how can one be saved?"
And Joel Osteen the wolf answered:
quote:
"None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Joel Osteen Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]
Oh, I see now, Joel Osteen, so in other words, it's all on me and you. In your reality, we, mortal man, are the greater god, because us alone is what makes God's forgiveness valid, it is up to us to choose whether to accept this forgiveness that God hands to us on a silver platter. By accepting God's forgiveness, we validate God's forgiveness, and by rejecting it, we invalidate it.
Also in your reality, Joel, the power is not in the blood of Jesus, the power is in us. It is us, mortal man, who is powerful enough to validate or invalidate salvation though the blood of Jesus, God can't do that, but we can because according to your false gospel we, mortal man, are the greater god.
According to Joel Osteen, Salvation provided by Christ is null and void without man’s decision for Christ.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Joel Osteen is blind and he cannot lead those who are blind too, he is leading his followers to hell.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Don't believe in Joel Osteen's false gospel of Satan! That is a soul killer!
Be free and wake up, please, the decieved of the Lakewood Church before it is too late.
The unbeliever is not already forgiven!
Joel Osteen's false gospel is straight from the devil's mouth!
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
But what do those false teachers I am speaking of like Joel Osteen love? Is it doctrine or God? Their denomination or Scripture?
Doctrine over God, and denomination over Scripture. It is the blind leading the blind.
+++++++++
Let those blind leaders like Joel Osteen alone, do not bear with them!
The Pharisee: ST. LUKE 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.
Don’t you see how serious this is, the blind Heresy too cannot lead those who are blind. They are leading people to hell.
The Heresy: 2 PETER 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Different name, same game.
++++++++++
Joel Osteen is blind and is leading the blind.
They are walking on the doomed path, leading to destruction.
If you are traveling on that path, get off it now!
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Millions could be affected by this new powerful Word-Of-Faith heretic cult movement. I'm sure the devil is having a good laugh at this one.
I do so hate to give the devil any thing to laugh about. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
The decieved who see nothing wrong with Joel Osteen are blind and need to be converted from the error of their ways.
![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
The tolerance of hellish doctrines taught by the WOF just has to end. You can't tolerate a snake in your house or mind, after all.
But what do those false teachers I am speaking of like Joel Osteen love? Is it doctrine or God? Their denomination or Scripture?
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We must not bear with this "powerful Word-Of-Faith heretic cult movement". We must show our disapproval by any means necessary.
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Even though people may call me a WOF basher, or a heresy hunter, I will continue to do what I do, EXPOSING FALSE TEACHING.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Thus, in Osteen’s reality, Christ’s atonement is incomplete, unfinished, without man’s assent.
Salvation provided by Christ is null and void without man’s decision for Christ.
In Osteen’s unconscionable Gospel, every human being has already been forgiven his sins, yet many are going to Hell. This is no Good News. What, pray tell, is ‘good’ about the Gospel which states that God loves you, has forgiven you all your sins, yet you may still go to Hell?
This is the Gospel of the devil.
Source Cited: http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/htm/heretics/Joel%20Osteen%20Open%20Letter.pdf
To me, this is the ultimate in the master of craftiness, the devil. It is obvious to most Christians the blatant deceit of JW's and other such factions, but these WOF'ers are under the guise of being staunch born-again Christians.
I believe that most of the people who tune into Joel Osteen's Word-Of-Faith programs would rather be more favor minded than Truth minded.
The Heresy is upon us all!
2 TIMOTHY 4: 2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Examples of Joel Osteen's fables:
(Example) Jesus paid for our sins in hell.
(Example) Jesus already paid the price and already forgiven are the sins of every sinner ever born.
I am extremely concerned about sincere seekers and new babes in Christ, they are the ones who concern me the most! I used to be one of them. I would take in every single crumb of rat poison that Joel Osteen fed to me.
Well, no more! No more lies! I'm done with Joel Osteen's manpleasing lies!
Millions could be affected by this new powerful Word-Of-Faith heretic cult movement. I'm sure the devil is having a good laugh at this one.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Joel Osteen teaches that all is forgiven, the believer and non-believer are already forgiven.
The forgiveness and justification is how the price has already been paid according to Joel Osteen, and if mortal man does not simply accept this forgiveness of God, then they will go to hell.
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then Christ’s last words, It is finished, is a lie, for He had finishing nothing without the cooperation of the sinner in receiving His atoning sacrifice.
Thus, in Osteen’s reality, Christ’s atonement is incomplete, unfinished, without man’s assent.
In Joel Osteen's hellish doctrine, salvation provided by Christ is null and void without man’s decision for Christ.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Joel Osteen teaches that all is forgiven, the believer and non-believer are already forgiven.
The forgiveness and justification is how the price has already been paid according to Joel Osteen, and if mortal man does not simply accept this forgiveness of God, then they will go to hell.
Your sins are forgiven, but you can still go to hell. For what? For just simply not accepting this forgiveness of God.
That does not make any sense, that is not gospel at all.
I know, that is the gospel of Satan.
It is the gospel of Satan, because man is the greater god, handed God's forgiveness on a platter.
No confession of sins.
No repentance.
No nothing but accepting God's forgiveness.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I agree with you that it is in error. It will take me some time to show why and I dont have tht right now, but in thr next day or so.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Rose there is a lot here I would like to cover in your last posts but it may take me acouple days to get back to you.
No problem.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Joel Osteen teaches that all is forgiven, the believer and non-believer are already forgiven.
The forgiveness and justification is how the price has already been paid according to Joel Osteen, and if mortal man does not simply accept this forgiveness of God, then they will go to hell.
Your sins are forgiven, but you can still go to hell. For what? For just simply not accepting this forgiveness of God.
That does not make any sense, that is not gospel at all.
I know, that is the gospel of Satan.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Rose there is a lot here I would like to cover in your last posts but it may take me acouple days to get back to you.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Linda, I can see how I got off track now. I always believed that Jesus died for the sins of all people, but it was Tracy's post that led me off track:
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Whether Joel Osteen is a false teacher or not, the above is a bad example to show him as false. I do not see anything false about his statement and is very much in line with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever belives in hims hall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus gave himself for the world. This incredible gift has been delivered, and even Jesus said "It is finished."
And now it is the accepting or rejection of the gift that will determine where one spends eternity...in Heaven or Hell.
People accept the gift of eternal life, by becoming forgiven and believing.
I had seen what Tracy had said, and I did not respond rationally to him.
I did not believe that Jesus died for the unjust because I thought that Jesus died only for the forgiven ones.
If the forgiveness and justification along with the death and ressurection of Jesus is how the price has already been paid, according to Joel Osteen, then Jesus did not die for the unjust and the unbelievers.
The forgiveness of God is needed, this I know.
But the unbeliever does not already have forgiveness, as Joel Osteen falsely preaches.
You need to be forgiven of your sins, but you are not already forgiven.
"The price has already been paid" means that Jesus has paid the price for your sins already, but it does not mean forgiveness and justification for your sins already, because that comes with the confession of sins and repentance.
Before I was reconciled to God, I was not already forgiven although Christ died for me.
I have already known this, but it was Tracy's post that tripped me up, what he was saying was truth and was completely different than from what Osteen said.
I assume now that Tracy was speaking of God's love for humanity, that God loved the world so much that Jesus was sent to die for them all.
What Tracy was saying was completely in line with the word of God, but it was not what Joel Osteen was saying.
Tracy changed around what Joel Osteen had truly said.
But I was just too foolish and blind to realize it.
So I thought that Tracy was saying what Joel Osteen was saying, and I went against the word of God because I was so wrapped up in emotion and the flesh that I did not respond rationally.
All that I was thinking about was defending myself against those who defend false teachers.
I was not aware that Tracy was actually speaking truth.
My statement about Jesus not dying for the unjust made me look like I don't know the scripture to boot and to put that forth with such arrogance made me look immature. (I believe that was my flesh, now)
I did not think about what I was saying, I just went on and said it.
If you had not come along, Linda, I would have continued to look bad, rude, immature, or just like a lady constantly ready to "rip someone's head off".
My foolish behavior did not help my message and it does not further the kingdom.
I have learned from my mistake.
I have decided because of this, no longer will I ever speak to Tracy, his responses or posts to me will from here on and out will always be ignored by me.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
“What does the resurrection mean to you and me today living in the year 2000? Number one. Our sins have already been forgiven…… But listen to me carefully, friends, this is so important. None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]
“And some of you today don’t want to come to God because you say, "Joel, you know, you’re talking about some things I don’t understand." Listen, this is what you need to understand. Your sins have already been forgiven if you will only accept the gift. The price has already been paid.” [Sermon: What the Resurrection means to us as believers.]
This is not in line with John 3:16.
John 3:16 (King James Version)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Joel Osteen is saying that the unbeliever is already forgiven and justified, this is how the price has already been paid, not just the death and ressurection of Jesus.
Linda, you proved that teaching false when you said:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The unjust does not confess his sin. The unjust does not believe he has any sin to confess.
This is how Joel Osteen preaches a false gospel. Joel Osteen's teaching makes man the greater God, by simply accepting God's forgiveness without confessing sin.
Joel Osteen teaches that all is forgiven, the believer and non-believer are already forgiven.
The forgiveness and justification is how the price has already been paid according to Joel Osteen, and if mortal man does not simply accept this forgiveness of God, then they will go to hell.
Your sins are forgiven, but you can still go to hell. For what? For just simply not accepting this forgiveness of God.
That does not make any sense, that is not gospel at all.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Your private message mailbox is full, Linda, so I can publically tell you that you did a good deed.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
If Jesus shed blood for the unbeliever and all his sins are forgiven, then all, both believer and unbeliever is saved by the blood, no one has to believe in Christ.
Not so!
This is why we are told this:
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The unjust does not confess his sin. The unjust does not believe he has any sin to confess.
Oh, I see it now, you have to confess your sins, and then God forgives.
I will admit that Jesus died for everyone now, if I was misunderstood, I am sorry for that. I turn away from my foolishness.
It was foolish for me to say that Jesus did not shed blood for the unbeliever, for that I am sorry.
The reason why I did this was because I was under the false belief that the shedding of blood of Jesus Christ for the unbeliever automatically meant forgiveness and justification.
Just because Jesus shed blood for the unbeliever, does not mean that they are already forgiven. I understand it now. I can see the truth.
Thank you, Linda. I appreaciate the way that you showed that to me without rudeness or disrespect.
But according to this:
quote:
“What does the resurrection mean to you and me today living in the year 2000? Number one. Our sins have already been forgiven…… But listen to me carefully, friends, this is so important. None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Joel Osteen Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]
...we are to "accept this forgiveness", as if the unbelievers are already forgiven. This does not teach us to confess our sin. All that it says is "accept this forgiveness", as if God's forgiveness is handed to man on a platter for man to either accept or reject.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
READ THIS CAREFULLY ROSE:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
That does not mean all men are justified. They are not...
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOh, I see, this is where I think I have misunderstood it. I thought that you were saying that all was justified and reconciled to God because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
I believe that although Jesus shed blood for them, unbelievers are not justified, so the price has not already been paid for them... well, at least not the in the way that Joel Osteen falsely teaches, because they are not forgiven.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
If Jesus shed blood for the unbeliever and all his sins are forgiven, then all, both believer and unbeliever is saved by the blood, no one has to believe in Christ.
Not so!
This is why we are told this:
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The unjust does not confess his sin. The unjust does not believe he has any sin to confess.
When the unjust is damned he is damned for the sin HE himself does and not the sin inherited by Adam. This is because GOD is just and will not damn you for something you did not do, thus the Lamb of GOd was slain from the foundation of the world to take away the sin of the world which is the sin inherited by ADAM.
If you then confess your own sins to God he forgives them.
If you do not it is because you do not acknowledge GOD to be GOD and you do not believe you sin against GOD and your sins will damn you.
By the way it is the fact that Jesus died for the sin of Adam in all of us Just and Unjust that allows GOD to have mercy on the infant, or the child that is not yet reached the age of accountibility. This is why Babies who are aborted do not go to hell for the sin of Adam in their flesh. God is able to have mercy because the blood of Jesus was shed for the just and the unjust... God so loved the whole world.
No the whole world will not have eternal life! Only those that beleive that believe and confess.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
But those who are damned damn themselves by their own sin and are not damned by sin they inheirted from Adam.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The fact that Jesus died for the sin of the unjust, does not make them righteous. Only putting on the righteousness of Christ can make you righteous and the unbeliever cant do that.
Ro 5:19 For as by one man‘s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
READ THIS CAREFULLY ROSE:
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
That does not mean all men are justified. They are not...
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I dont like osteen's preaching. I believe he is in error in many ways and is hurtful to the body of Christ, but you are wrong here Rose,
I don't believe that I am wrong here at all, I believe that the blood of Jesus is strong enough to wash away all sins, but according to Tracy, it is not, it is up to man to make it strong by just "accepting this forgiveness". What is that?
If Jesus shed blood for the unbeliever and all his sins are forgiven, then all, both believer and unbeliever is saved by the blood, no one has to believe in Christ.
I believe that the blood of Jesus is strong enough to wash away all sins. Yaddadameen?
All sins are not forgiven of the unbeliever, because they will shed blood for their own sin, unless they "ask to be forgiven". Forgiveness is not just handed out on a platter to be accepted or rejected.
***<[EDIT] Again, I believed that Tracy was siding with Joel Osteen's doctrine, but he was not and I was, and I was really looking bad.
I almost deleted the whole thread because I thought that what Joel Osteen said really lined up with God's word.
When Linda came in and said that I was wrong here, I REALLY thought that what Joel Osteen said lined up with the word of God due to all of the confusion.>***
^^^^^^^^^^^
Either Jesus' blood or yours, simple as that.
If you do not ask to be forgiven and believe in Christ, you will die for all your sins, because Jesus did not, there is no savior for you. Everyone is not forgiven, everyone does not have a savior.
John 3:16 (King James Version)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Jesus did not die for the condemned. If he did, then both he died as well as the sinner that he failed to save.
***<[EDIT] Oh, now that is so confusing, I already knew Jesus died for the sins of both believer and non-believer, although it did not look like it because I was under the false belief that the shedding of blood of Jesus Christ for the unbelievers automatically meant forgiveness and justification for them already, which was EXACTLY what Joel Osteen taught.>***
^^^^^^^^^^^
John 3:17-19 (King James Version)
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
The condemned have loved darkness and will die for their sins, not because they did not "accept this forgiveness"; there was no forgiveness to even accept.
The condemned are not forgiven.
***<[EDIT] Just because Jesus shed blood for the unbeliever, or the condemned, does not mean that they are already forgiven. Joel Osteen's statement that "every human being has already been forgiven his sins, yet many are going to Hell" is just one of the many examples of the tall tales of Joel Osteen.>***
***<[EDIT]>*** = New text edit insert commentary revision.
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Kindgo
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posted
http://www.rapturealert.com/2006/091306best.asp
Homosexuality: It isn't "God's best?"
by Michael G. Mickey
(9-13-06)
A Boston Herald article on Pastor Joel Osteen begins as follows:
He’s the most popular preacher in the country right now - a best-selling author and the “most watched minister” in America.
But when asked yesterday about gay marriage during a trip to the bluest state in the land of the free - and the only one where same-sex nuptuals are legal - the Rev. Joel Osteen suddenly got sheepish.
“I don’t think it’s God’s best,” the handsome Holy Roller said of homosexuality. “I never feel like homosexuality is God’s best.”
When pressed on the issue, Osteen said, “I don’t feel like that’s my thrust . . . you know, some of the issues that divide us, and I’m here to let people know that God is for them and he’s on their side.”
Joel Osteen may well be the most popular preacher in America as the article indicates, but he is one of the weakest defenders of God's Word I have ever seen! What would I have said if asked the same question? I would have had no problem saying that God doesn't approve of gay marriage nor the practice of homosexuality without so much as blinking an eye. Why? Because that's what the Word of God tells us! The same goes for committing adultery, stealing, lying, and many other behaviors the Father has told us to steer clear of!
Joel Osteen's problem is one that is becoming more and more prevalent here in these end times. The Church of the end times spends far more time trying to figure out how it can fit into the world than it does transforming the world into a place that is acceptable to God! It's a pity to say the least as that strategy is going to lead many a person to take their accountability to the Most High lightly! Way too lightly!
How would anyone discern, for example, that God calls the practice of homosexuality an abomination from hearing Joel Osteen say it isn't "God's best"? I have a news flash for Joel Osteen. Homosexuality isn't God's anything! It is as removed from the will of God as the east is from the west! This he should know and have no problem saying! He is, after all, a minister of God's Word, right?
Leviticus 18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Osteen, who is clearly tap dancing all over the place, trying to avoid directly answering the reporter's questions, is quoted in the Boston Herald as saying homosexuality isn't his "thrust." When someone asks him what the Word of God has to say on the topic of same-sex marriage, it doesn't matter if it's his "thrust" or not. He, as a minister of God's Word, should be ready with an answer or be prepared to find an answer. That answer, when he gives it, should be clear as crystal, not muddied up and gutless.
1st Peter 3:15: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
2nd Timothy 2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
James 5:12: But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
While the Joel Osteens of the world may be wildly popular, particularly due to the fact they ignore warning their fellow man of God's judgment to come in favor of telling everyone that God is "on their side", they're not doing those who think they're great any favors. By trivializing the Word of God's stern disapproval of homosexuality, for example, those of an Osteen mindset are suggesting that living one's life outside the will of God is no big deal. Not only that, they're culpritizing those of us who are holding the line for the Word of God in these end times as religious fanatics, giving the enemies of the Church a base from which to allege that true believers hold a radical and mean-spirited view of the teachings of the Word of God, something the Church's enemies are already looking to do when given the opportunity.
Soon, as seen in a CNS News article, Stephen Green, who heads a small but active Christian lobby group called Christian Voice, is going to appear in a court in Britain to answer to charges he is guilty of "threatening, abusive or insulting behavior." What did Stephen do to result in this charge being placed against him? He was handing out Christian tracts at a homosexual rally entitled "Same-sex love, same-sex sex: What does the Bible say?"
According to the CNS News article, the tracts contain verses from Leviticus in the Old Testament and Romans in the New Testament which characterize homosexual acts as sinful, as well as a "basic gospel message" that includes "the promise of God's forgiveness and eternal life for those who turn from their sins and "call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.""
Christians, as I often state on this website, we are going to have to make some decisions concerning where we stand here in these end times. Barring the Lord's return coming soon, I believe the time is coming when Christians are going to be persecuted to the point we're going to have little choice but to stand our ground --- or kow tow to the enemy. If that day comes on this side of the Rapture, are we going to stand up for the Word of God or are we going to tuck tail and run? Are we going to be bold witnesses for Christ or render the Word of God of no effect by waffling on every key issue of the times we're living in, in a meaningless effort to gain popularity and acceptance with the world?
Which is more important to us? To fill the pews of our churches at the expense of men's souls or to maintain the integrity of the Word of God, even if it means hurting some people's feelings along the way? It needs to be the latter, regardless of the cost. It's far better for us to save those we can by telling them the Truth than to make a million think everything is going to be okay only to have them appear before God in judgment someday to discover it isn't!
--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
It is not contrary to the Spirit to speak to expose error that is being taught in the church nor to name those who teach it. The apostles did it. Christ did it; and in the revelation Christ reprimands the church for not doing it.
It must be with the agenda of agape love which seek the repentance of the one in error and the guarding of the flock against error and it must be done on solid scriptural grounds.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
I think Tracy was trying to help you. Christ died for the just and the unjust.
See the sinner owes two lives when he dies and only has one iife to give. He owes for the sins of Adam that he inherited before he ever does sin of his own.
The Blood of Christ is what allows the unjust sinner who never comes to Christ to die for his own sins and not the sins of his earthly father before him, and not for Adam's sin in herited also.
But even when the life in the flesh is given, the unjust sinner is still dead, and can do nothing to raise himself or redeem his own soul from the pit, so we see Christ is needed still. Christ did much more than just pay for sin.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
But also that GOd may JUSTLY carry out judgrment on the unjustified sinner for his OWN sins.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Jer 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
This is how Christ's blood breaks generational curses; this is how God justly condemens the sinner for his own sin and not the sin of ADAM. Christ shed his blood for the sins of the world... just and unjust.
I dont like osteen's preaching. I believe he is in error in many ways and is hurtful to the body of Christ, but you are wrong here Rose, and Tracy did not come to you rude, but you responded to him very rudely and without understanding. That was not God that wrote that post through you, it was your flesh and you should apologize to Tracy.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
quote:
The price has not already been paid for the sinners. They will shed their own blood for their own sins if they die in them. Jesus did not shed blood for the unredeemed! How can you think something like that, Tracy?
It's easy...the Bible tells us so.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
You are showing your immaturity in Christ again, young one...How could Christ die for the redeemed? For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, and are not redeemed until they accept the sacrificial gift of our crucified and risen Savior.
That is what is so awesome about God's grace...while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8).
So if you are going to work contrary to the Spirit and accuse others, at least let the accusation stand on biblical ground.
And I pray that this new revelation for you will enable you to understand a little more about God's love and enable you to show a little more of it to others.
1 Peter 3:18 (King James Version)
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
Of course, by this Jesus knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him, it would be the only way that us believers as sinners would be presentable and acceptable to God.
To bring the believers to God, while they still were sinners. To bring the unrighteous to God to repent and become believers.
***<[EDIT]See there, I said "us believers as sinners" so I knew very well all along that Jesus died for all, although it did not appear that way.>***
^^^^^^^^^^^
Romans 5:8-9 (King James Version)
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
Of course, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath.
The ungodly are NOT justified by the blood of Jesus, as said before, the price has NOT already been paid for them.
***<[EDIT]Unbelievers are not justified, so the price has not already been paid for them... well, at least not the in the way that Joel Osteen falsely teaches, because they are not already forgiven.
Joel Osteen is saying that the unbeliever is already forgiven and justified, this is how the price has already been paid, not just the death and resurrection of Jesus.>***
^^^^^^^^^^^
***
When I was one of the ungodly, Christ shed blood for me, because I am now a believer, I have turned away from my sins and I am reconciled to God. "while we were yet sinners", this is adressed to believers, Tracy! Not unbelievers, the unbelievers are the unrepentant sinners.
***<[EDIT]That is all wrong. By then, I was totally confused, I said these things because I was under the false belief that the shedding of blood of Jesus Christ for the unbeliever automatically meant forgiveness and justification.>***
^^^^^^^^^^^
Romans 5:10-11 (King James Version)
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."
Of course, when I was an enemy, I was reconciled to God by the death of Jesus Christ the moment that I became a believer, not as an unbeliever."when we were enemies", this is adressed to believers, Tracy!
Not unbelievers, the unbelievers are the unrepentant sinners. They will shed blood for their own sins, because they have no savior.
***<[EDIT] Okay, that was really twisted, in utter confusion, I dug an even deeper hole for myself. Tracy was the one who agreed with the word of God while I believed that he was saying what Joel Osteen was saying, so when I disagreed with Tracy it created an illusion that I did not believe the word of God because I was being tricked into believing the teaching of Joel Osteen acually lined up with God's word because of Tracy's confusing wordplay.> ***
^^^^^^^^^^^
And Tracy, don't ever come in here and try to discredit me and attack me.
Tracy. I am getting very sick and tired of you. My patience is wearing very thin.
The unbeliever is not reconciled to God, the believer is!
***<[EDIT] I was sick and tired of my own frustration, but I was taking God's word out of context the way that Joel Osteen did, I was in confusion and I looked bad, all the while Tracy kept God's word in context, not like Joel Osteen, and he looked good.>***
***<[EDIT] THAT is exactly the reason why I don't usually argue and debate. In debate, it is easy to get confused and lose focus of the TOPIC ITSELF, all the while losing control of one's self. In desperation to win, things can be ignored or even munipulated just for a victory.>***
***<[EDIT] In this case, I let my guard down and argued and debated false teaching. I let my guard down and argued and debated Tracy, which was wrong, and that is why I believe the thread started out so treacherous.>***
***<[EDIT]>*** = New text edit insert commentary revision.
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trafield
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posted
quote:
The price has not already been paid for the sinners. They will shed their own blood for their own sins if they die in them. Jesus did not shed blood for the unredeemed! How can you think something like that, Tracy?
It's easy...the Bible tells us so.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God.
You are showing your immaturity in Christ again, young one...How could Christ die for the redeemed? For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, and are not redeemed until they accept the sacrificial gift of our crucified and risen Savior.
That is what is so awesome about God's grace...while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8).
So if you are going to work contrary to the Spirit and accuse others, at least let the accusation stand on biblical ground.
And I pray that this new revelation for you will enable you to understand a little more about God's love and enable you to show a little more of it to others.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
If we accept Jesus as Savior,
can we then sin all we want?
Being saved is not accomplished by reciting a few special words. We do not say a magic phrase and become saved. We do not merely say, "Jesus please forgive me" and suddenly all of our sins are automatically wiped away simply because we uttered a special sentence. It isn't a formula for salvation or an incantation that somehow cleanses us and then permits us go out and sin. The Bible says, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (Rom. 6:1-2). Unfortunately, there are those who accuse the Christians of having a license to sin. To this, the Bible says, "And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just," (Rom. 3:8). Notice that Paul says that those who accuse the Christians of doing evil are being slanderous.
On the contrary, salvation is an appeal to God for cleansing from sin, forgiveness, and repentance so that we might not sin. This appeal is a heartfelt confession of our hopelessness before God and an acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. It is simultaneous with sincere repentance which is a turning from sin, not to it.
To receive Jesus in our hearts mean we have first acknowledged that we are sinners and that we are incapable of saving ourselves or of appeasing God in any way. We acknowledge before God that we are helpless and worthy of damnation. But with this, we also acknowledge that Jesus is the one who paid the penalty for our sins. We realize that there is no possible way that we can make things right with God by our own works. When we accept Jesus as our Savior we are accepting the call to repentance from sin. God then calls us His children: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," (John 1:12).
New Creatures
Furthermore, when we receive Christ, we are regenerated; we are changed; we are born again. This means that there is something different about us. Something has happened to us. This is why Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," (John 3:3). To be born again means that something new has happened in us. This "something" is the change in us that is the result of regeneration. "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," (2 Cor. 5:17). The old things were the sinful passions and desires. Our enslavement to them is broken when we are born again. Furthermore, once we are born again, we are no longer our own and we are in dwelt by the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins, “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment," (John 16:8). This conviction of sins occurs in the believer and is a method that the Lord uses to help us stop sinning. We are not saved so that we are free to go out and do that which is wrong. We are saved so that we might bring glory to God and demonstrate the work of regeneration in us as we turned from our sinful ways. This is why it says in Rom. 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" And also, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!" (Rom. 6:15). And again, "Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God," (1 Cor. 10:31). How can we bring glory to God by going out and sinning? We cannot. In fact, to anyone who says that he is a Christian and then continues in his sins without seeking repentance and without conviction is a liar. The Bible clearly states, "The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked," (1 John 2:4-6).
The Bible says that Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and that salvation is a free gift we receive by faith (Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9). When we accept Jesus, we are accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins, by faith. We are trusting Jesus alone for salvation. When we do this, the Holy Spirit lives in us. Since the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8) we then seek to please God and avoid sin. It is a natural result of being saved.
So no, accepting Jesus does not mean that we can then go out and sin. It means we have turned from sin and we are new creatures who desire to bring glory to God and not use the grace of God to sin.
web page
Trés bien, lonlesol.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Whether Joel Osteen is a false teacher or not, the above is a bad example to show him as false. I do not see anything false about his statement and is very much in line with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever belives in hims hall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus gave himself for the world. This incredible gift has been delivered, and even Jesus said "It is finished."
And now it is the accepting or rejection of the gift that will determine where one spends eternity...in Heaven or Hell.
***<[EDIT]Okay, I started off believing the word of God and Tracy did not by believing Joel Osteen's blasphemous statements to be true.
Joel Osteen's blasphemous statements were not biblical.>***
^^^^^^^^^^^
The price has not already been paid for the sinners. They will shed their own blood for their own sins if they die in them. Jesus did not shed blood for the unredeemed! How can you think something like that, Tracy?
***<[EDIT]Okay, THAT is the point where I have misunderstood everything. This is where it all goes downhill, folks! I thought that Tracy was saying in his above post that all, believer and non-believer, are already forgiven, justified and reconciled to God because of the death and resurrection of Jesus because that was exactly what Joel Osteen was saying.
Now, I don't believe that Tracy was saying that at all.
I believe now that Tracy was talking about God's love for humanity, God sending Jesus to die for both believer and non-believer.
It's like when I clashed with Tracy, we both traded places in the confusion. In the blink of an eye, I was the one believing what Joel Osteen had said was true as Tracy and I began to agrue.>***
***<[EDIT]I knew all along that only the believer is forgiven, justified and reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus, and that is not what Joel Osteen was saying.>***
***<[EDIT]Also I knew that Christ died for all, the believer and non-believer, but I also knew that the non-believer is not already forgiven, justified and reconciled to God through the blood of Jesus, they need to confess their sins to God and repent.>***
***<[EDIT]The unbeliever is just that, an unbeliever. I believe that although Jesus shed blood for them, unbelievers are not justified, so the price has not already been paid for them... well, at least not the in the way that Joel Osteen falsely teaches, because they are not already forgiven.>***
^^^^^^^^^^^
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then God is an unjust God who demands payment for sins twice: once by His innocent Son on the cross, who was punished in the stead of His people; then again from the non-accepting sinner whom He sends to Hell to undergo eternal punishment.
***<[EDIT]Yep folks, that was a very good analogy but I made a very bad interpretation of that analogy:>***
So, in other words, if you are an unrepentant sinner, two people pay the price for your sins, Jesus and you.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Don't you see how twisted that is? Osteen is saying that Christ's sacrifice is not enough, you may still go to hell.
***<[EDIT]I should have said: "Don't you see how twisted that is? Osteen is REALLY saying that God's forgiveness is not enough, you may still go to hell.">***
^^^^^^^^^^^
And no, Tracy, that is not in line with John 3:16.
***<[EDIT]I was regarding the part about every human being, believer and non-believer has already been forgiven of their sins was not at all in line with John 3:16.>***
^^^^^^^^^^^
John 3:16 (King James Version)
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
You have to believe in Christ by turning away from your sins, and living life for Christ. Jesus died for the believer, not the unbeliever. Those who do not believe are condemned. Condemnation is not eternal life.
***<[EDIT]Yikes! What I should have said was: "You have to believe in Christ by turning away from your sins, and living life for Christ. The believer is forgiven, not the unbeliever. Those who do not believe are condemned. Condemnation is not eternal life. The forgiven are not condemned, the forgiven are the believers in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:1 (King James Version)
'There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'">***
***<[EDIT]>*** = New text edit insert commentary revision.
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trafield
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posted
quote:
Osteen Preaches a False Gospel
“What does the resurrection mean to you and me today living in the year 2000? Number one. Our sins have already been forgiven…… But listen to me carefully, friends, this is so important. None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]
“And some of you today don’t want to come to God because you say, "Joel, you know, you’re talking about some things I don’t understand." Listen, this is what you need to understand. Your sins have already been forgiven if you will only accept the gift. The price has already been paid.” [Sermon: What the Resurrection means to us as believers.]
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then God is an unjust God who demands payment for sins twice: once by His innocent Son on the cross, who was punished in the stead of His people; then again from the non-accepting sinner whom He sends to Hell to undergo eternal punishment. Not even the secular judicial system requires payment from the exonerated defendant. Once declared ‘not guilty,’ he can never be tried or punished for the same crime again. Yet Pastor Joel preaches a God more unjust than sinful men.
Whether Joel Osteen is a false teacher or not, the above is a bad example to show him as false. I do not see anything false about his statement and is very much in line with John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever belives in hims hall not perish but have eternal life.
Jesus gave himself for the world. This incredible gift has been delivered, and even Jesus said "It is finished."
And now it is the accepting or rejection of the gift that will determine where one spends eternity...in Heaven or Hell.
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lonlesol
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Member # 4511
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posted
If we accept Jesus as Savior,
can we then sin all we want?
Being saved is not accomplished by reciting a few special words. We do not say a magic phrase and become saved. We do not merely say, "Jesus please forgive me" and suddenly all of our sins are automatically wiped away simply because we uttered a special sentence. It isn't a formula for salvation or an incantation that somehow cleanses us and then permits us go out and sin. The Bible says, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" (Rom. 6:1-2). Unfortunately, there are those who accuse the Christians of having a license to sin. To this, the Bible says, "And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just," (Rom. 3:8). Notice that Paul says that those who accuse the Christians of doing evil are being slanderous.
On the contrary, salvation is an appeal to God for cleansing from sin, forgiveness, and repentance so that we might not sin. This appeal is a heartfelt confession of our hopelessness before God and an acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. It is simultaneous with sincere repentance which is a turning from sin, not to it.
To receive Jesus in our hearts mean we have first acknowledged that we are sinners and that we are incapable of saving ourselves or of appeasing God in any way. We acknowledge before God that we are helpless and worthy of damnation. But with this, we also acknowledge that Jesus is the one who paid the penalty for our sins. We realize that there is no possible way that we can make things right with God by our own works. When we accept Jesus as our Savior we are accepting the call to repentance from sin. God then calls us His children: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," (John 1:12).
New Creatures
Furthermore, when we receive Christ, we are regenerated; we are changed; we are born again. This means that there is something different about us. Something has happened to us. This is why Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," (John 3:3). To be born again means that something new has happened in us. This "something" is the change in us that is the result of regeneration. "Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come," (2 Cor. 5:17). The old things were the sinful passions and desires. Our enslavement to them is broken when we are born again. Furthermore, once we are born again, we are no longer our own and we are in dwelt by the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins, “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment," (John 16:8). This conviction of sins occurs in the believer and is a method that the Lord uses to help us stop sinning. We are not saved so that we are free to go out and do that which is wrong. We are saved so that we might bring glory to God and demonstrate the work of regeneration in us as we turned from our sinful ways. This is why it says in Rom. 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" And also, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!" (Rom. 6:15). And again, "Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God," (1 Cor. 10:31). How can we bring glory to God by going out and sinning? We cannot. In fact, to anyone who says that he is a Christian and then continues in his sins without seeking repentance and without conviction is a liar. The Bible clearly states, "The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked," (1 John 2:4-6).
The Bible says that Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and that salvation is a free gift we receive by faith (Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9). When we accept Jesus, we are accepting the sacrifice of Jesus for our sins, by faith. We are trusting Jesus alone for salvation. When we do this, the Holy Spirit lives in us. Since the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8) we then seek to please God and avoid sin. It is a natural result of being saved.
So no, accepting Jesus does not mean that we can then go out and sin. It means we have turned from sin and we are new creatures who desire to bring glory to God and not use the grace of God to sin.
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Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Good morning, evening, afternoon, my kind brothers and sisters.
Although the Joel Osteen's lost tapes series is over and done, I have chosen to release this most needed multi-part letter to the decieved of the Lakewood church.
Either it be the people in Joel Osteen's church, or just the people who tune into his programs, or even the decieved who read his books and take his spiritual rat poison into their hearts.
We must never ever bear with such an evil wicked man, this wolf in sheep's clothing is getting just the exposure that he deserves here.
http://www.lakewood.cc/
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (Matt. 13:22)
Dear Deceived Lakewood Churchgoers & Television Viewers:
I write this letter of rebuke and warning, not because Jesus appeared to me in a vision, not because the Holy Ghost came to me in a second anointed filling, not because God the Father teleported me to the Third Heaven for a personal meeting, but because the Word of God, the very Bible which you hold up and confess, commands me to do so.
It is true your church has leased the Compaq Center in Houston for $12 million dollars. It is also true you renovated and improved the Center for an estimated additional $90 million.
Artist’s rendering of Lakewood Compaq Center after $90 million renovation. Lakewood is determined to give St. Peter’s Basilica a run for its money.
And it is true your church encourages Christians to ‘Sponsor-A-Seat’ in the nearly 18,000 seat Center at a cost of $2,500 per to pay for the rebuilding effort.
Joel & Victoria Osteen standing beside $2,500 theater seat. Theater seats are necessary to watch theatrical Christian church services.
However, it is also true that Jesus sent His Apostles out to preach the Gospel providing neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in their pockets, nor scrip for their journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves; for the workman is worthy of his meat. Yet Lakewood Church requires $90 million dollars more to do the work of Jesus, showing little of that supernatural faith which they and their leaders claim.
‘Discover the Champion in You’ - Lakewood’s Gospel of Greed
Under the new leadership of Joel Osteen, son of the late founder, John, Lakewood Church has grown in church attendance, tithes and television markets. It has also provided numerous benefits to Joel, including a $2.2 million dollar home.
http://www.hctax.net/propertytax/current/2005statement.asp?account=0752020270011
One can only imagine the number of servants needed to keep this busy, professional, prosperous, religious household of four afloat and fed. One can also only imagine the budget needed to keep the Osteens cloaked in Neiman Marcus’ finest.
Never short on million-dollar smiles and warm, humorous anecdotes, many about ‘Daddy,’ Senior Pastor Joel, an Oral Roberts University dropout, exudes confidence and success. Certainly, in worldly terms, he has achieved this at the young age of 39, thanks to the multitudes of deceived tithing Lakewood churchgoers. In what is no less than a meteoric rise to prominence, Joel Osteen has invented an extremely lucrative career as a ‘Christian’ Motivational Speaker, having worked diligently for years behind the scenes supervising the television production of his father’s services. Awarding himself the title of PASTOR, ‘one who feeds his flock,’ Joel reluctantly took the torch passed to him by his dying father. Today, boosted by his sudden and unexpected success, a confident Pastor Joel urges his disciples to discover the champion in you, teaching them weekly how they, too, can achieve their dreams and hearts’ desires. God wants to reward his congregation and viewers abundantly, he tells them, if only they would use the principles the Word-Faith Teachers have discovered to tap into this divine treasure trove.
Pastor Osteen’s positive brand of non-offensive Christianity, purposefully omitting the Lord’s thousands of warnings, pleases the masses, earning him accolades in the American ‘Christian’ Word-Faith, Pentecostal/Charismatic community.
However, when one examines Osteen’s ministry by the searchlight of the Word of God, one quickly finds discrepancies between the teachings of Osteen and the teachings of Jesus.
Osteen Preaches a False Gospel
“What does the resurrection mean to you and me today living in the year 2000? Number one. Our sins have already been forgiven…… But listen to me carefully, friends, this is so important. None of this will do you any good unless you rise up and begin to act on it. Do you know you can still die and go to hell even though your sins have already been forgiven? What a tragedy. But if you don't accept this forgiveness and make Jesus the Lord of your life, it's not going to do you any good.” [Sermon: The Truth of the Resurrection.]
“And some of you today don’t want to come to God because you say, "Joel, you know, you’re talking about some things I don’t understand." Listen, this is what you need to understand. Your sins have already been forgiven if you will only accept the gift. The price has already been paid.” [Sermon: What the Resurrection means to us as believers.]
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then God is an unjust God who demands payment for sins twice: once by His innocent Son on the cross, who was punished in the stead of His people; then again from the non-accepting sinner whom He sends to Hell to undergo eternal punishment. Not even the secular judicial system requires payment from the exonerated defendant. Once declared ‘not guilty,’ he can never be tried or punished for the same crime again. Yet Pastor Joel preaches a God more unjust than sinful men.
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, nor did He render to the Father full satisfaction and expiation for sin, because many on that Great Day of Judgment will, to no avail, cry, ‘But, Lord, Lord,’ as they are cast into the Lake of Fire, (Matt. 7:21-23).
If the price has already been paid and the sins forgiven every sinner ever born, as Osteen falsely preaches, then Christ’s last words, It is finished, is a lie, for He had finishing nothing without the cooperation of the sinner in receiving His atoning sacrifice.
Thus, in Osteen’s reality, Christ’s atonement is incomplete, unfinished, without man’s assent.
Salvation provided by Christ is null and void without man’s decision for Christ.
In Osteen’s unconscionable Gospel, every human being has already been forgiven his sins, yet many are going to Hell. This is no Good News. What, pray tell, is ‘good’ about the Gospel which states that God loves you, has forgiven you all your sins, yet you may still go to Hell?
This is the Gospel of the devil.
Source Cited: http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/htm/heretics/Joel%20Osteen%20Open%20Letter.pdf
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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