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Topic: Paul & the twelve
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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The Prison Epdistles is the only grouping written to a people chosen since the foundation of the world. And in them we read of gentiles, not Jews, not priests, not kings, not earthly blessings, not of OT quotations and examples. Instead we read of heavenly places, a purpose that was kept hid in God but now made known that has to do with families both in earth and in heaven. These things, claim the testimony of Scripture, are un trackable and never before revealed. And they have to do with a church called His body. A church so intimately connected to the Lord that it finds it's unity as oneness with the head which is Christ.
This is much closer than any previously made known relationship.
This is not a prison epistle:
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
The church is one body ... Christ's body because the church is joined to Christ in a marriage relationship in which two have become one and the husband is the head.
This is from Ephesians... a prison epistle:
Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
This is the mystery of the relationship of the church HIS BODY and Christ and this is from Ephesians.. a prison epistle:
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Here it is explained to the ROMANS in what is not a prison epistle:
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Here it is explained to the Corinthians in what is not a prison epistle:
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
There is no more intimate relatioship than that of a man and a woman becoming one...bone of my bones flesh of my flesh joined together one spirit by God... this is the bride/groom relationship of Christ and his church and you seem to have missed it!!!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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Here is the first problem. The sign does not say "Kingdom/Israel/Earth. The Sign Jesus was holding said Kingdom/Sheep/Heavenly; 32 times in Matthew's Gospel Jesus uses the term "Kingdom of Heaven" It is the Kingdom of Heaven that is at hand!
Paul confirms this when he writes to the Hebrews:
Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
I'll have to do some reading above, but first take the first and last, as they both make wonderful examples of what I view to be a seemingly common perception.
All of Israel's blessings are on the earth. And in resurrection. There are two spheres to this, but even this is moving past a primary oversight. It is Mathew, which is the only Gospel where the Lord says the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. The other three never have this Kingome of Heaven, it is the Kingdom of God. They are both the same kingdom. In Mathew Christ Jesus is the Lord presented as King. They afterwards in Acts never speak of leaving the planet. Rather they look for the kingdom to come from heaven with their King. They are the four distinct presentations of the Messiah, and together form one perfect whole.
In the Hebrews quote, again, do not miss the fact that Hebrews brings the theme of 'better', a better hope, better resurrection, better country which is heavenly, and we learn this better country is also the heavenly Jerusalem, which, in Rev we find comes down from heaven to the earth.
So when I see the signpost that says gentiles, heavenly, I have to goto the Prison Epistles, which are written to gentiles, with Paul a prisoner for the hope of you gentiles, and after the Salvation of God is sent to the gentiles.
When the gentiles were standing outside the synagogues they were, says Paul, without God in the world, having no hope. They were simply made partakers through faith of Israel's blessings, which are earthly and awaits the resurrection.
They had a purpose. The purpose reached it's conclusion which is recorded by Luke at the end of Acts.
The church which is His body is announced, it's blessings are not earthly, not with Israel, and the kingdom is called the kingdom of His Dear Son.
In Cor. there is one body. I would never dispute that. But look at the entire context, not just the verse, but the setting and the subject, which is that the Jews and the gentiles are one body, and as such they were an example to other surrounding churches, and not at any time are they they call the church which is His body. Let us remain close to that which is written.
Remember, in this same letter, Paul compares them to the head, an ear, an eye, they are members in particular. But in the Prison Epistles there is equality unmatched in all of Scripture, where, there, we are actully given a title, presented in the heavenly places far above all, called the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.
Blessings and callings have a corresponding hope.
earth
heavenly city
heavenly places far above all
One calling is called a mystery, or secret. This secret is revealed after Acts in the Prison Epistles where the church is called to be a full grown man.
One calling is made much clearer in the NT, Galatians, Hebrews, and Revelations, and has to do with overcomers and a city and a bride.
One calling has to do with the earth and was revealed early in the testimony of Scripture and belongs to Israel as the wife.
Each of these are introduced with words such as adoption. Adoption means to place as a son. In other words, to place as the firstborn son. So we have three firstborn placements. There would be some serious conflict if any of these had two firstborn places, but it makes perfect sense that we can have three firstborn placements if we have three spheres of blessings, and we do.
earth
heavenly city
superheavenly places
so when we study, we need to do much more than just read and search to find a phrase of word we are looking for. we need to take in the whole of the context, the setting, the stated purpose of the subject. we need to keep to the context and see if the words and phrases are really telling the same story, are they echoing an advancement of the same story, are they exampling the anti type of the same story, or is there a true outgrowth in the developement of the plan of the ages being made known to just mention a few things that can be going on. And often are.
The Prison Epdistles is the only grouping written to a people chosen since the foundation of the world. And in them we read of gentiles, not Jews, not priests, not kings, not earthly blessings, not of OT quotations and examples. Instead we read of heavenly places, a purpose that was kept hid in God but now made known that has to do with families both in earth and in heaven. These things, claim the testimony of Scripture, are un trackable and never before revealed. And they have to do with a church called His body. A church so intimately connected to the Lord that it finds it's unity as oneness with the head which is Christ.
This is much closer than any previously made known relationship.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I really like Chip Brogden, but I am of the mind that if what we say is not supported by scripture then it is in error, no matter who it is that teaches it or how much we like them or how many things that they teach that are right on the money. Not one of us is perfect yet.. not one of us has complete understanding of all things yet.
I listened to this link and while I felt that there was good message here, there are some statements made by Brogden that I cannot agree with. I would like to share them and my reasons for disagreement. I do not feel that the scripture supports these statements:
It seems that Chip Brogden as adopted some form of “mid-acts” dispensationalism… He does not as many mid Acts dispensationlists do, claim the church to be a Gentile church began by Paul… but he does make some statements that I feel are incorrect and are in agreement with Mid-Acts Dispensationalism.
Here are my problems with this lesson from Brogden:
1. Brogden states : “up to this point was exclusively comprised of Jewish brothers and sisters who believed” The “this point” is in this teaching the point prior to Paul’s conversion in Acts 9, and Peter’s vision in Acts 10.
2. Brogden also states that prior to Acts 11, when Peter and Paul began preaching to the Gentiles, no Apostles were preaching to the Gentiles. He uses this scripture to support his assertion:
Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
I do not believe that either of these two statements are supported by scripture and I shall attempt to show you why. You can then judge for yourself.
First let us go to Acts 2… the Day of Pentecost:
Acts 2: 1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
What distinguishes the “church” of Christ from the “Church” that was in the wilderness? This I think is an important question . We know that there is a distinction because Christ himself said “on this rock I will build MY church” and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. Christ was going to build… future… not present “I am building” not past “I have built”… not even “have been building” but will build.. Future.
So, what makes the “church that Christ will build to be different than the Church that was in the wilderness ? I believe that it is the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit.
In Acts 1, we see 120 people have followed Christ through out his ministry, from the Baptism of John, to the cross and now to here… to Jerusalem at Pentecost and each of them are witness of HIS resurrection. Two of them are selected and one is chosen to be partake in the ministry of the Apostles as witnesses with them of HIS resurrection, and now the day of Pentecost is fully come and they are all in the upper room and a sound comes out of heaven and they are all filled with the Holy Ghost! This is the beginning of the Church that Christ is building and these who are ALL Jews are the first to be Baptized with the Spirit of God.
Note they are all Jews…Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
They are Jews from all over the world. But they are JEWs (Of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and any of the Levites or others that came to Judah at the time of the Northern Kingdom’s captivity) They are not reckoned among those that were taken captive by Assyria and scattered. They are Jews… part of those who were taken captive by Babylon and some of their ancestors returned during the days when Jerusalem was rebuilt and some did not, but these are JEWs.
Salvation is to the Jew first.
If we believe that Salvation comes with the New Birth, then we see that this.. the beginning of Christ’s church comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and it came at Pentecost to the Jews First.
But, Christ said that HIS Gospel was to be taken into the world; specifically HE said to the 11 Apostles that they should be witness of HIM in Jerusalem, in all of Judea, AND in Samaria.
Let’s look at that scripture for a moment:
quote:
Acts 1: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
The coming Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a PROMISE from the Father God that said… “Yea have heard of me”
Wait for the promise of the Father, says Christ… The Promise of the Baptism of HIS Spirit. Paul say that the Ephesians were sealed with this same Spirit of Promise:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Paul speaks of this promise of the baptism of the Spirit to the Galatians this way:
Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
The Promise of God to man is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit – It is given by faith OF Christ to those who believe and it says “Yeah have heard of Me”
Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
When did God promise the Spirit of God to be given to man and that the giving of that Spirit would say “Yeah have heard of Christ”?
The HOLY Spirit of Promise.. given at Pentecost FIRST to the JEWS whom God had gathered out of all nations… later given to the Gentiles… in Galatia and in Ephesus and everywhere that men believed and called on the name of the Lord.
Lets go back to Acts 1 for a moment…
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Acts 1: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
We see in verse 6 that the 11 still are expecting that the Kingdom should be restored to Israel. Jesus has been with them many many months and he has spoken to them about the Kingdom of Heaven… even the night before HIS death he has told them that HIS Kingdom is not of this earth. Still they are expecting HIM to deliver them from Rome. But Christ is not come to deliver them from Rome, but from HELL. The GATES of HADES shall not prevail against the church that Christ was building.
Still…. Jesus does not say to them… I am never going to restore the Kingdom to Israel… for one day we know that HE will do just that. But What Jesus says to them… to the 11 is that it is not for them to know the times or the season that GOD the Father has put in HIS OWN POWER.
IT is GOD The Father who is putting the enemies of Christ under HIS feet. It IS GOD that has ordained what time and what Season, the Kingdoms of the earth will become the Kingdoms of our Lord. But it was not for these 11 to know when…not the time nor the season.
Now, LOOK AT VERSE 8… Jesus says to these 11 Jewish Apostles here is your ministry… here is what is important for you to know… this is what you need to be concerned with….
“ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”
Samaria is the land of the heathen… the Bible tells us that when the Assyrians took the Northern Tribes captive they moved them from out of the land of Samaria which was the Capitol city of the Northern Kingdom and they moved in Assyrians. This is why the Jews have no dealings with Samaritans! This is who lives in Samaria since God scattered the Northern Kingdom….
Ezra 4: 9………………….the Dinaites, the Apharsathchites, the Tarpelites, the Apharsites, the Archevites, the Babylonians, the Susanchites, the Dehavites, and the Elamites, 10 And the rest of the nations whom the great and noble Asnappar brought over, and set in the cities of Samaria, and the rest that are on this side the river, and at such a time.
Now, let us go back to Acts and the day of Pentecost….
quote:
Acts 2: 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Jews out of every nations… JEWS baptized with the Holy Spirit of Promise. But then
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Acts 2: 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
This are not Jews, they are Gentiles! And what does Peter… Peter, not Paul.. Peter! What does Peter say to them?
First notice how he addresses them:
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14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Peter addresses not just the Men of Judea.. his brothers.. but ALL YE who live at Jerusalem… Proselyetes and all these others … Persians Medes Assyrians, Babylonians Asians Egyptians Greeks and Arabians! And what does he tell them?
quote:
Acts 2: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Peter tells them that this is the day that the Holy Spirit of Promise is poured out on ALL FLESH and WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the LORD SHALL BE SAVED!
Peter right there in ACTS 2 is the first Apostle to preach Salvation not just to the Jew, but to the Gentile. This does not make Peter an Apostle to the Gentiles.. we know that Later this is given to Paul to be… but this does make point blank clear that when Paul says that the mystery is revealed to the Saints.. he means that and the teachings of Bullinger and others who want to divide what God has joined are in error!
Let’s summarize for a moment:
1. Jesus preached the Kingdom of Heaven.
2. Jesus stated that HIS kingdom was not of this world
3. Jesus said the 11 were also not of this world and that is why they recognized him.
4. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit Baptism was a promise of God that said “Ye have known me”
5. Jesus said it was given first to the Jews
6. Jesus prophesied that the 11 would receive the Holy Spirit of Promise and then would take to the Judea, Jerusalem, SAMARIA and the world the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven and the promise of the Holy Spirit of Promise.
7. In Acts 2 the church began first with Jews who were Baptized.. reborn by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as promised by GOD the Father.
8. Then Peter explained to men of the world that this was what was prophesied that ALL flesh would receive the HOLY Spirit of Prophesy and WHOSOEVER should call on the name of the LORD would be Saved… and Jesus is the LORD.
9. All of this has occurred before Saul is ever made to be Paul.
Now let us continue on…
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of
I will let you follow the scripture yourself.. but note the address YE men of ISRAEL… who is Peter speaking to???
quote:
Acts 2: 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Ye men of ISRAEL, says Peter to a crowd of Persians, Medes, Elamites (Assyrians) Dwellers in Mesopotamia (Baylonia) Asia & Asia Minor, Phrygia where the towns of Antioch in Pisidia (Act_13:14), Colosse, Hierapolis, Iconium, and Laodicea were situated in it, Pamphlyia and Egypt… Libya and cyrene… Do you notice that this is following the same pattern of the later Missionary Journey’s of Paul? Strangers of Rome (Jews and Proselytes, Cretes and Arabians…… YE men of Israel! Jews? No! Not all! Israel is become the nations…
Gen 48:5 And now6258 thy two8147 sons,1121 Ephraim669 and Manasseh,4519 which were born3205 unto thee in the land776 of Egypt4714 before5704 I came935 unto413 thee into Egypt,4714 are mine; as Reuben7205 and Simeon,8095 they shall be1961 mine.
Gen 48:6 And thy issue,4138 which834 thou begettest3205 after310 them, shall be1961 thine, and shall be called7121 after5921 the name8034 of their brethren251 in their inheritance.5159
Gen 48:16 The Angel4397 which redeemed1350 me from all4480, 3605 evil,7451 bless1288 (853) the lads;5288 and let my name8034 be named7121 on them, and the name8034 of my fathers1 Abraham85 and Isaac;3327 and let them grow1711 into a multitude7230 in the midst7130 of the earth.776
Gen 48:19 And his father1 refused,3985 and said,559 I know3045 it, my son,1121 I know3045 it: he1931 also1571 shall become1961 a people,5971 and he1931 also1571 shall be great:1431 but truly199 his younger6996 brother251 shall be greater1431 than4480 he, and his seed2233 shall become1961 a multitude4393 of nations.1471
Multitude of nations… literally… fullness of Gentiles!
Peter says… Ye men of Israel! Called after your brethren to an inheiritance… by adoption… the name of Jacob/Israel be named on them… a multitude of Gentiles!
Now look further on with me in Acts:
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Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL…. ALL THE HOUSE OF JACOB… the promise is to you JEWs??? NO… that would not be consistent with what Jesus said and it would not be consistent with what Peter said when he said WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the LORD.
Now look here in Acts 6
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Acts 6:1 ¶ And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
The Greeks in the church were complaining against the Hebrews in the church that the Greek widows were not being provided for in the daily administration … the feeding and care of their material needs, in the same manner as the Hebrew widows were being provided.
This again shows us that Brogden’s statement that the church was prior to Acts 11 comprised completely of Jews. Further, if you read on to the 7 deacons that were appointed at Jerusalem.. one of them is a proselyte.
Now if we go to Acts 8 we see that there was after the stoning of Stephen great persecution in the church and the Christians began to scatter and to leave Jerusalem and they went into the world and began to preach, but not the Apostles.
Acts 8:4 4 ¶ Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
Now.. this is the scripture that Brogden uses to support his statement that the Gospel was preached to only Jews prior to this time, by the Apostles… this is also the same thing that those who support a errored mid and late acts dispensation use… BUT if you look carefully at Acts 8:4 and at Acts 11:19 you see that these two scriptures speak of the same people and they are church members that scattered and preached to the Jew only. Lets look at what the Apostles did:
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5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Remember from EZRA who is in Samaria? Gentiles! Remember Jesus said he was not sent to Samaria and called the woman from Samaria who sought healing a dog. The woman at the well said that Jews had nothing to do with the Samarians, BUT JESUS said the 11 would go to Samaria! Phillip, AN APOSTLE now Goes to Samaria
We know that it was not Jews in Samaria that Phillip preached to… Simon the Sorcerer was also among those preached to. Then Peter and John went to Samaria to pray for their baptism with the Spirit of Promise. [u] Peter & John APOSTLES… praying for Gentile Samarians to receive the spirit of Promise before SAUL ever became Paul!!! [/u]
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Acts 8: 25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.
Peter & John preach to villages OF Samarians… not villages of Jews in Samaria, but villages of Samarians on their way back to Jerusalem. This again shows that Brogden is in error… but not only that.. it is important to note that it is these scriptures that force the late Acts dispensationalist to claim that there is yet another division and that this church is not the church that Paul built. But the scripture my friends says… yeah, Paul himself says there is ONE BODY and ONE Spirit
1 Corinthians 10:17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Now, we have Peter and John preaching the Gospel of Christ… which is the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the Gospel of God and of Christ to the Samarians who are GENTILES and what does Phillip do?
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Acts 8: 26 ¶ And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
This is an Ethiopian and a Eunuch… The law of Moses excluded them from the congregation (Deu_23:1).
This was neither a Jew nor a Proselyte.. though his queen may have been a proselyte. This Eunuch was preached Jesus by the Apostle Phillip and Baptized in the name of Christ by him as well and again this is before Saul became Paul.
At this point I think that this sufficiently shows that Brogden’s mid acts statements are in error
1. Brogden states : “up to this point was exclusively comprised of Jewish brothers and sisters who believed” The “this point” is in this teaching the point prior to Paul’s conversion in Acts 9, and Peter’s vision in Acts 10.
2. Brogden also states that prior to Acts 11, when Peter and Paul began preaching to the Gentiles, no Apostles were preaching to the Gentiles.
The first Gentiles entered the Christian congregation in Jerusalem and heard the Gospel from Peter. Acts 2
The Apostles Phillip and Peter and John preached the Gospel to the Samarians who were Gentiles.
Peter proclaims in Jerusalem at Pentecost that Holy Spirit Baptism and salvation is for all whom will call upon the Lord.
This further agrees with the teaching of Jesus.
The scripture shows that the church was comprised of Samarians, Gentile Proselytes, a eunuch, and more from the beginning once the 120 Jews that were in the upper room on the day of Pentecost received the Spirit of Promise.
Lastly... I would like to say that this need to divide the scripture the church and the apostles in ways that God did not divide them is just silly.
For example: Peter we call an Apostle to the Jews and he was... but Peter and the 11 were told by Jesus personally that THEY would take the Gospel to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the world.
Likewise Paul is called the Apostle to the Gentiles and he was. But Paul was told personally by Jesus that he would preach the gospel to:
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Notice what Paul says of himself and Barnabas.. also an Apostle... but not only they, but all who are of the new covenant:
Acts 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
This very thing was prophesied by Isaiah:
Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
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Thank you Linda ,and I also add my Amen!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Caretaker
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Amen Linda!!!!!!!
Exactly Thunderz7, well noted.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
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Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
by this dispensation teaching,
Paul is saying the other apostles should be accursed.
Does anyone really believe this?
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Now when I am traversing what is written, and I see a sign that says Israel, earth, I pretty much can believe that the sign points to where it is going. And when I come to a sign that says gentiles, partakers with Israel's things, I see that there is a reason given for this and where that road leads as well. And when I come to a sign post that says heavenly places, the church, I must consult the Bible to see which road I am supposed to be on.
So when I come to the sign that says kingdom, Israel,earth, or church, heavenly places, gentiles, I know that I am to take the road that says church, heavenly places, gentiles because of what the apostle to the gentiles has written to people like me.
Here is the first problem. The sign does not say "Kingdom/Israel/Earth. The Sign Jesus was holding said Kingdom/Sheep/Heavenly; 32 times in Matthew's Gospel Jesus uses the term "Kingdom of Heaven" It is the Kingdom of Heaven that is at hand!
Paul confirms this when he writes to the Hebrews:
Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Neither does the sign that Paul was Holding read Church/Heavenly places/ Gentiles: It reads Church/heavenly/Jew & Gentile:
The seat that we have in the "heavenly places" is a seat IN Christ. It is Christ that is seated in the heavenly places and it is Christ in US that is our "all Spiritual Blessing"
Christ IN Us is the Mystery of the Fellowship.
The Kingdom of Heaven and If God is IN YOU!
To the Romans:
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
To the Corinthians:
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
To the Galatians:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
To the Ephesians:
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
To the Philippians:
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
To the Colossians:
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
To the Thessolonins:
1 Thessolonians 4: 7 for God did not call us on uncleanness, but in sanctification;
8 he, therefore, who is despising—doth not despise man, but God, who also did give His Holy Spirit to us.
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While Paul was in prison, writing the Prison Epistles, what he was making known had been revealed to him for a company chosen before the foundation of the world. We never heard of anyone chosen before the foundation of the world before. Nor of anyone going to heaven to be with the Lord there. Nor of any company where there truly is no enmity between the nations and the tribes of Israel. This was rejected, the apostle writes, by all who had been believers in the years when Romans and Thesselonians and Corinthians and Galations and Hebrews were written.
This is not so:
Paul wrote of it to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Paul also tells Titus that eternal life was promised before the world was formed; and Hebrews, Paul says that the patriarchs saw it afar off, embraced it and confessed that they were strangers/pilgrims in the earth. (Not of the earth/ people of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jacob prophesied in Genesis on the head of Joseph these things:
Genesis 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.
ALL BLESSINGS OF HEAVEN ABOVE - JOSPEH
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We never heard of anyone chosen before the foundation of the world before. Nor of anyone going to heaven to be with the Lord there.
Not so!
Enoch went to live with God in heaven:
Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Apparently David knew that some did ascend and he knew that whether he did or whether he did not God was with him...
Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Jesus spoke of people going to heaven to live:
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Speaking of Ephesians you say:
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It is this epistle, and some other Prison Epistles, which tell us for the first time in all Scripture, that God is going to have a heavenly family with Him there.
That is not so! Jesus spoke of this:
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
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While all the blessings are spiritual and in heavenly places, this we do not find mention before what Paul has told us of this, that it is a new revelation previously hid but now made known.
All the blessings are not spiritual. There is a huge difference between all the blessings being spiritual and having all spritual blessing.
We are promised everything that the natural seed of Abraham was promised, because Jesus is the heir to those promises and we are his body. Further, we have blessing in this life because we are in this life as he is in heaven... righteous, and not in bondage to the sin in our flesh... that is a very real and material blessing. Peace Joy and Power in the Holy Ghost are tangible blessings;
Further, as I posted above... all blesssing in heaven was placed on the head of Joseph by Jacob. So all blessing in the heavenly places was spoken of in the OT.
Additionally, the blessing with which we are blessed with all spiritual blessing in the hevenly places is IN CHRIST.. you keep leaving that out... IN CHRIST and CHrist himself spoke of being IN us and US in him abiding in HIM and HE is in the heavenly places. thus are we, because we are in HIM, and HE spoke of this in the Gospels!!!
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Why would the apostle tell the Ephesians, after spending years with them, that they must pray to know the hope of their calling?
He did not tell them this. This is what Peter said:
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Here is what Paul said to the Ephesians:
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
He says their eyes have been opened that they do understand what is the hope of their calling (CHRIST IS THE HOPE OF ALL OUR CALLINGS)
Paul's who letter to the Ephesians is about knowing that we are one body with the rest of the saints and that we are in a marriage relationship with Christ... ONE BODY... part of the household of GOD.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
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Paul loved his people dearly. There became a time though, when each of the N.T. writers spoke of it being the last time that Israel would have to change their heart and return to the receiving of their kingdom.
You claim that this happend in Rome at Act 28, but the truth is that Paul everytime he preached where there were both Jews and Gentiles preached first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. We see him make that same statement in Acts 13!
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
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Paul continues his ministry, but he is then no longer able to quote Scripture when instructing the church revealed thereafter. He continually and repeatedly claims that a new revelation is given him concerning a church, called, the church, which is connected to the head and called the body.
Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles; there is no question about that. It is no mystery that Paul while in prison would write to those who he was given to steward. There were other aposltes given to steward other churches. It is also no mystery that Paul did not speak to Gentiles of the thing that concerned Jews. To make this to be something that it is not or to say because he did not write while in prison to the churches he had already written to is simply to divide the family of God in a way that God has not divided it. When Jesus writes to the churches in Asia he writes to each individual locale regarding the things that are of issue in that locale... this is the way the church was established... the issues in Philippi where not the issues in Corinth and not the issues in Rome and not the issues in Ephesus. There is no need for me to write to you about not boasting against the Jews if you are not boasting against the Jews; there is not need for me to write to you about being adopted into the family of God ONE fellowship if you are a Jew that is natural seed of Abraham already. This does not make me to preach a different Gospel.. there is one Gospel... Christ in you the hope of glory. Rebirth - reconcilliation to the life of God... for the sinner whether he be in sin under the law and without grace that is now been manifest in Christ or whether he be damned and perishing without the law.
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Why did all the apostles then preach an 'at hand' kingdom to the Jews up until Cornelius is spoken to by Peter, being unlawful for a Jew to speak to a gentile?
I am not sure what you are refering to as to all the other aposltes preaching an at hand kingdom. Scripture please.
As to Cornelius.. a Roman. Peter was shown by God at God's timing that there was nothing unclean. This was hard for him to understand.. still, Peter was shown this before Paul wrote any prison epistle... yet your version of dispensationalism deny's that any knew that the Gentiles would be part of the family of God prior to Paul writing from Rome.
The trouble is that you want to make Paul not Christ the founder of the church. Christ is the founder of the Church. It was given to Paul to take the news of the dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles... but God does not do anything that it is not first revealed to his servants the prophets and the OT Law gave shaddow that GOD gives grace to the Gentile who loves God/believes his word/lives by faith according to his commands. The very lives of Rehab, and of Ruth prophesy of the adoption of Gentiles; Jesus prophesied of the inclusion of Gentiles; there were Gentiles at Pentecost. The promise of eternal life was promised before the world began and it is a promise to all who love God.
Israel the commonwealth is not promised eternal life on earth... they are promised a kingdom forever... this earth is not forever it will be destroyed. The new earth is going to be the dwelling place of GOD... with man. All men who love God.
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And even after that, to the Jew first? Expecting to see Him come as they saw Him go?
You do not expect to see him come as he went??
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Why did they all teach the soon and possible eminent return of the Lord coming with His personal presence?
Why do we teach the soon possible eminient return? Because when asked when he would return it was said it was not for them to know the season. We now who have the benifit of the whole of scripture know the season. We still do not know the day nor the hour nor will we, but we sure ought know the season... the Gospel is progressively revealed. There were things that they did not know... that the spirit had to teach. The Spirit is still teaching us today.
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Why did the Lord say He would send them the Comforter?
The Holy spirit was sent at Pentecost to do all things that the Spirit does one of which is comfort.. the Bible says that He comforts us that we may comfort each other and thus that God may comfort through us. The spirit was sent that we could be re-born and sealed and indwelled with the earnest of that which is to come.. that we could be transformed into the image or Christ from Glory to Glory, that we could be sealed until the redemption of the spiritual body from this body of sin and death.
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Are you sure Israel was not preached to regarding repentance and the receiving of their kingdom now that all things concerning Christ Jesus had been fulfilled, referencing Luke?
Israel was preached repentance and the receiving of their Kingdom... but the Kingdom Jesus preached was a heavenly kingdom. Some did recive it. Namely the Apostles and others.
All that Jesus came to do and all that was to be fulfilled at that time was fulfilled.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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In the light of the words, "Your house is left unto you desolate," how amazing the presumption that would lead any to declare, as practically all these extreme dispensationalists do declare, that Israel is being given a second trial throughout all the book of Acts
This one won't be so long. Sorry about being so lengthy.
Why did all the apostles then preach an 'at hand' kingdom to the Jews up until Cornelius is spoken to by Peter, being unlawful for a Jew to speak to a gentile?
And even after that, to the Jew first? Expecting to see Him come as they saw Him go?
Why did they all teach the soon and possible eminent return of the Lord coming with His personal presence?
Why did the Lord say He would send them the Comforter?
Are you sure Israel was not preached to regarding repentance and the receiving of their kingdom now that all things concerning Christ Jesus had been fulfilled, referencing Luke?
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Thank you for the reply. I would really enjoy digging into this Biblically, soundly. When I read the Bible, I see that there is a sort of roadmap. The road began with an angelic fall, and flesh man with a stream of individuals coming into this flesh.
Now when I am traversing what is written, and I see a sign that says Israel, earth, I pretty much can believe that the sign points to where it is going. And when I come to a sign that says gentiles, partakers with Israel's things, I see that there is a reason given for this and where that road leads as well. And when I come to a sign post that says heavenly places, the church, I must consult the Bible to see which road I am supposed to be on.
So when I come to the sign that says kingdom, Israel,earth, or church, heavenly places, gentiles, I know that I am to take the road that says church, heavenly places, gentiles because of what the apostle to the gentiles has written to people like me.
[quote="Caretaker "]ultra-dispensationalists are a unit in declaring that the four Gospels must be entirely relegated to a past dispensation (in fact, according to most of them, they are pushed two dispensations back), and, therefore, are not to be considered as in any sense applying to this present age. [/quote]
John's gospel seems to have been written as truth for today, written for non believers, to the end that they might believe and have life through His name. For ex, John goes out of his way to explain things that any Jew would not need to have explained, and makes for 10 large parenthetical breaks.
While Paul was in prison, writing the Prison Epistles, what he was making known had been revealed to him for a company chosen before the foundation of the world. We never heard of anyone chosen before the foundation of the world before. Nor of anyone going to heaven to be with the Lord there. Nor of any company where there truly is no enmity between the nations and the tribes of Israel. This was rejected, the apostle writes, by all who had been believers in the years when Romans and Thesselonians and Corinthians and Galations and Hebrews were written.
So basically, the revelation of the mystery went about as un noticed as the Lord's crucifixion. Remember that the thousands and thousand and thousands of Jews were preparing for their Jewish Passover Feast.
Some would have me believe that just 50 days later gentiles were permitted into the Passover Feast, but over 20 years later we find they wanted to kill Paul because they thought he let a gentile past the middle wall of partition.
I figure that this dispensation, as it is called in the Bible, may just go as un noticed as it came when Israel is again taken up as a nation the way Revelation, and the over 280 O.T. quotes state.
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Notice the opening verses of Romans 15.
Romans is the building blocks of Ephesians in many many ways, and Ephesians does not let us to wonder, for it is written,
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
It is this epistle, and some other Prison Epistles, which tell us for the first time in all Scripture, that God is going to have a heavenly family with Him there. While all the blessings are spiritual and in heavenly places, this we do not find mention before what Paul has told us of this, that it is a new revelation previously hid but now made known. Paul uses the emphatic expression to convey this, often pausing that we may ackowledge before reading on.
In fact, there are many Selahs' in Ephesians, like lights and gates at the railway crossing, they all mean, stop...look...listen.
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what we have in all the Old Testament is for us
Agree completely. Here comes the but part. But, even though it is all written for us, and for our learning, it is not true that it is all written to us, most of it definately has Israel's name on the address, if we can think of the letters as letters. And, Israel is definately found with much left to do before all Scripture concerning their calling be fulfilled.
When the Bible says Israel, Israel is being addressed. If everyone is being addressed by the title Israel, then what boundries do we have for receiving truth? Can words just mean anything that sounds good to us? Certain sects even take on part of Israel's law, but only the part they want. It is too harsh to take upon themselves the punishments for the laws they heap to themselves, so, are they worshipping God revealed, or an unknown god?
Please, everyone, take the time to answer me this question.
Why would the apostle tell the Ephesians, after spending years with them, that they must pray to know the hope of their calling?
Didn't they know the hope of their calling during the Acts?
Did anything change that would make Paul instruct those believers that they now must pray to know what this hope is:
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints
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But, observe, it is upon this very fact that the apostle bases present grace going out to the Gentiles, for he adds in verse 9
Yes, the apostle is quoting Scripture here. He quoted readily and profusely all during the Acts ministry, to the Jew first...
In fact, Paul was constantly showing them in Scripture that they were fulfilling the worst of Israel's prophetic warnings, that they could still expect the Lord to return from heaven if they would just repent. Even the provoking of the nation by other tongues and other nations were prophecied.
Paul loved his people dearly. There became a time though, when each of the N.T. writers spoke of it being the last time that Israel would have to change their heart and return to the receiving of their kingdom.
We know this did not happen. We read what did happen. The figure set forth in Isa. 6:9-10 was set in motion in Mat. 13 and judiciously sealed at the end of Acts.
Paul continues his ministry, but he is then no longer able to quote Scripture when instructing the church revealed thereafter. He continually and repeatedly claims that a new revelation is given him concerning a church, called, the church, which is connected to the head and called the body.
While in Acts, Israel is instructed that they are made one body with the gentile believers, there is no unity to be found. They are even compared to the head. No member of the body called the church in the Prison Epistles would dare take that position, as in this body Christ is the head and every member is joint one to another with the head.
I am trying to explain the meaning the Greek brings out concerning Ephesians 2:19 & 3:6.
In this body all members are on equal ground one to another because here, in this doctrine being laid before us in Ephesians 1-3, Christ Jesus had now broken down that middle wall that existed during the Acts.
There is however, no mention of partaking of Israel's spiritual things. No priests are mentioned. Abraham is absent. The earth is not where their citizenship lies.
The meek shall surely inherit the earth.
The overcomers shall surely be the bride and
be seen coming down out from heaven.
So what about this company called His body?
Why is the church called a male over and over?
Is there not more yet to be found in the revelation of God's understanding to us-ward, which is Paul's understanding to us-wards?
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel
One might be inclined to read this as gentiles are joint heirs with Israel, but this is not the case and would go against every teaching the first 2 chapters set forth.
Israel and gentiles only exist where there was enmity, but here the middle wall does not exist, Israel has taken her place amidst all nation and are counted as one of the nation, where every member of this body are truly equal, no favourites, but joint members, joint partakers of what? The earthly kingdom blessings? That also would run contrary to everything the first two chapters is teaching, as well as this third chapter.
It is man kind who stands at the pulpit telling us how to believe, what to believe, what goes with what and what does not. Many times they are correct. We are told that truth would be harder and harder to come by in the latter days from several strong Bible passages. When men stand up and read the Bible but are not correct, we can only find this out by opening the Book.
It really boils down to what is written, to whom is it addressed, for what time is it written, is there a new revelation, and am I able to participate with the hope and calling of who is being addressed.
Peter's, for example, sounds very much like me. There is alot that I can relate to. But when I get to the being kings and priests part, I am reminded immediately that it is Israel who is promised to be so, and it is reinforced from Genesis to Revelation that the priestly nation is Israel. Then I recall that Peter was an apostle to the circumcision, preaching the gospel of the circumcision for the hope of Israel.
Do I find the hope of Israel mentioned in the Prison Epistles. I have not so far. Do I find that Israel has a future. Absolutely. Am I Israel? Cannot say that any of my fathers crossed the sea on dry land and were baptized into Moses.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Next letter written describes a church in heavenly places called His body, stating it was a secret.
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Caretaker
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http://www.brethrenonline.org/books/ultrad.htm
HOWEVER they may differ in regard to minor details of their various systems, practically all ultra-dispensationalists are a unit in declaring that the four Gospels must be entirely relegated to a past dispensation (in fact, according to most of them, they are pushed two dispensations back), and, therefore, are not to be considered as in any sense applying to this present age. It is affirmed with the utmost assurance that the Gospels are wholly Jewish. Inasmuch as we are told in the Epistle to the Romans (15: 8), that "Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers," the position is taken that the records of the Evangelists deal solely with this phase of things, and that there is nothing even in the utterances of our Lord Himself in those books that has any special place for the present dispensation.
Yet a careful consideration of the very passage in which these words are found would seem to negative this entire theory and prove that it is absolutely groundless, for when the apostle is stressing true Christian behavior, he refers the saints back to the life and ministry of our Lord Jesus when here on earth. Notice the opening verses of Romans 15. We are told that the "strong should bear the infirmities of the weak, and not seek to please themselves, but that each one should have in mine the edification of his neighbor," having Christ as our great example, "who pleased not Himself, but of whom it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached Thee fell on Me."
We are then definitely informed that not only what we have in the four Gospels, but what we have in all the Old Testament is for us, "for whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope." Here there is no setting aside of an earlier revelation as though it had no message for the people of God in a later day simply because dispensations have changed. Spiritual principles never change; moral responsibility never changes, and the believer who would glorify God in the present age must manifest the grace that was seen in Christ when He walked here on earth during the age that is gong. It is perfectly true that He came in exact accord with Old Testament prophecy and came under the law, in order that He might deliver those who were under the law from that bondage. He was in reality a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, not-observe-to fulfil at His first coming the promises made unto the fathers, but to confirm them. This He did by His teaching and His example. He assures Israel even in setting them to one side, that the promises made beforehand shall yet have their fulfilment.
But, observe, it is upon this very fact that the apostle bases present grace going out to the Gentiles, for he adds in verse 9:
"And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy; as it is written: For this cause I will confess to Thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto Thy name. And again He saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud Him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a Root of Jesse, and He that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in Him shall the Gentiles trust" (vers. 9-12).
Here, while not for a moment ignoring that revelation of the mystery of which he speaks in the closing chapter, Paul shows that the present work of God in reaching out in grace to the Gentiles, is in full harmony with Old Testament Scripture, while going far beyond anything that the Old Testament prophets ever dreamed of, and then he adds:
"Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope through the power of the Holy Ghost" (ver. 13).
While there is a change of dispensation, there is no rude severing of Old Testament or Gospel revelation from that of the present age. The one flows naturally out of the other, and the ways of God are shown to be perfectly harmonious. This being so in connection with the Old Testament, how much more does the same principle apply in connection with the four Gospels. While fully recognizing their dispensational place, and realizing that our Lord is presented in the three Synoptics as offering Himself as King and the kingdom of Heaven as such to Israel, only to meet with ever-increasing rejection, yet it should be plain to any spiritual mind that the principles of the kingdom which He sets forth are the same principles that should hold authority over the hearts of all who acknowledge the Lordship of Christ. In john's Gospel the case is somewhat different, for there Christ is seen as the rejected One from the very beginning. It is in chapter one that we read, "He came unto His own and His own received Him not." Then based upon that, we have the new and fuller revelation which runs throughout that Gospel of grace, flowing out to all men who have no merit whatever in themselves.
But in Matthew, which is preeminently the dispensational Gospel, the Lord is presented as the Son of David first of all. Then when it is evident that Israel will refuse His claims, He is presented in the larger aspect of Son of Abraham in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed. The break with the leaders of the nation comes in chapter twelve, where they definitely ascribe the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil. In doing this, they become guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, the crowning sin of that dispensation, which our Lord declares could not be forgiven either in that age or in the one to follow. In chapter thirteen, we have an altogether new ministry beginning. The Lord for the first time opens up the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, revealing things that had been kept secret from the foundation of the world, namely the strange and unlooked-for form that the kingdom would take here on earth after Israel had rejected the King and He had returned to Heaven. This is set forth in the seven parables of that chapter, and gives us the course of Christendom during all the present age.
As a rule, the ultra-dispensationalists would ignore all this and push these seven parables forward into the tribulation era after the Church, the Body of Christ, has been taken out of this scene. But this is to do violence to the entire Gospel and to ignore utterly the history of the past 1900 years. just as in Revelation two and three we have an outline of the history of the professing Church presented under the similitude of the seven letters, so in Matthew 13 we have the course of Christendom in perfect harmony with the Church letters, portrayed in such a way as to make clear the distinction between the Church that man builds and that which is truly of God. In chapter sixteen of Matthew's Gospel, the Lord declares for the first time that He is going to build a Church or assembly. This assembly is to be built upon the Rock, the confession of the apostle Peter that Christ is the Son of the living God. How utterly vain it is to try to separate this declaration from the statement in the Ephesian Epistle where we read,
"Now therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit" (2: 19-22).
Here in the preeminent prison epistle of which so much is made by the Bullingerites, you find that the Church then in existence is the Church our Lord spoke of building when He was here in the days of His flesh. The discipline of that Church is given in Matthew 18: 15-20:
"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone; if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the -mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to bear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of My Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them."
In Matthew sixteen you have the assembly as a whole, comprising all believers during the present dispensation. Here in chapter eighteen, you have the local assembly in the position of responsibility on earth, and its authority to deal with evil-doers in corrective discipline.
The complete setting aside of Israel for the present age is given us in chapter 23: 37-39,
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killst the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house -is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see Me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord."
In the light of the words, "Your house is left unto you desolate," how amazing the presumption that would lead any to declare, as practically all these extreme dispensationalists do declare, that Israel is being given a second trial throughout all the book of Acts, and that their real setting aside does not take place until Paul's meeting with the elders of the Jews after his imprisonment in Rome, as recorded in the last chapter of Acts. The fact of the matter is that the book of Acts opens with the setting aside of Israel until the day when they shall say, "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord." That is His second glorious coming. In the interval, God is saving out of Israel as well as of the Gentiles, all who turn to Him in repentance.
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16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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epouraniois
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Surely it is not being sujected that The Bible should not be held in the stricktest of standards, that instead we can read into one company that which is written to another company?
Now, while a church most certainly did begin at Pentacost, even Peter admits many years later that it is unlawful for a Jew to speak to a non Jew.
If it was a gentile church which began on Pentacost, then surely Peter would be rejoicing to fellowship with the gentiles, but that is just the opposite of what is written.
If it was a gentile church that started 50 days after they crucified their Messiah, Peter didn't know anything about it. In fact, there isn't a word about any gentiles being present for any of the Jewish feasts in all of the Bible that I am aware. Time and again it is written, ye men of Israel, while, finally, because of Israel's non repentance, we read:
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
That was in the year 44 A.D. And Paul is correct, the promises were national, and belong to Israel, therefore it was necessary that they are spoken to first. But even after this, it is always, during the Acts, to the Jew first. Why? Ephesians tells us that those gentiles during Acts had no hope and were (even then) without God in the world.
They were merely used, while Israel stood, for the provoking of that nation. That is what is written. Does that make it ultra anything to simply believe what is written? I always thought that made it faith.
The Bible clearly states that Paul taught what is called during the Acts, 'the gospel of the uncircumcision', while the Peter and the remainder of the twelve taught the 'gospel of the circumcision' in Galations.
Then the Bible clearly does not send the gentiles an apsotle until Act 28:28, for just verses prior to this sending of the Salvation of God to the gentiles, Paul is in bonds for the hope of Israel.
If is grossely over dividing the word of truth to believe what is written, and not add the opinion of man to it, then that is an opinion.
The facts are simple really.
Before the salvation of God is sent to the nations, there is no revelation of any church or anyone having a hope far above all in heavenly places. And when we do read about an inheritance in the heavenly places in Christ, it is not to the Jew first, it is to a newly revealed company chosen from before the foundation of the world, whereas Israel and those gentiles during Acts were chosen since the foundation of the world.
To mix them together as though they are given the same message cannot be substantiated with Biblical chapter and verse.
What is the word the inspired apostle uses of this church which is called 'the church which isHis body'? Create. Ktizō. In every instance but this one, the translators correctly translated this word create and creation, but here it was translated 'made', but means 'create' or 'creation' just as it does in every other instance of it's divine usage:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace
And the Lord created this 'one new man', not anyone else.
In fact, I know of nothing that is created that was created that was not called into being by Christ Jesus.
Not one person has ever shown me where the church began before it was revelated to the apostle as the apostle to the gentiles, or, nations.
No, instead, what is revealed through the written word of truth, is that the gentiles standing outside the synagogues were made partakers of Israe's spiritual things, and none of them are said to be in heavenly places.
Only one church has their inheritance where Christ sits at the right hand of God, and this was never revealed during the Acts, nor in the Gospels, nor in the OT.
To not believe that this was a secret hid in God is to simple deny the divine authority that has so stated it to be a fact.
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Question: "What is ultra-dispensationalism?"
Answer: In order to understand what ultra-dispensationalism is (also known as hyper-dispensationalism) let’s first begin by defining what the word dispensationalism means. The word dispensation means stewardship or administration and dispensationalism is simply a system of biblical interpretation that recognizes a distinction between the Church (i.e. the body of Christ) and Israel. Dispensationalism carries with it the idea that throughout the history of redemption God has given man specific revelation and commands and that man is tested with respect to his obedience to God’s commands or revelation. Therefore dispensations are different administrations in the eternal outworking of God’s purpose and plan. However, it is very important to realize normal dispensationalism acknowledges the fact that the way of salvation—by grace through faith—is the same in every dispensation. Generally many dispensationalists will recognize seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1 – 3:7), Conscience (Genesis 3:8 – 8:22), Human Government (Genesis 9:1 – 11:32), Promise (Genesis 12:1 – Exodus 19:25), Law (Exodus 20:1 – Acts 2:4), Grace (Acts 2:4 – Revelation 20:3), Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4 – 20:6). Again, these dispensations are not ways of salvation, but manners in which God relates to man.
One of the inherent dangers of dispensationalism is that it can become easy to overly divide the Bible and see divisions and discontinuity where there shouldn’t be any. This is exactly what the ultra-dispensationalist does. Therefore ultra or hyper dispensationalism would be an extreme form of dispensationalism that takes the basic tenants of dispensationalism to the very extreme resulting in unbiblical and often heretical teaching and doctrine. Some of the other names of this movement known as Hyper or Ultra-Dispensationalism are: Mid-Acts Dispensationalists, Acts 9 Dispensationalists, Acts 13 Dispensationalism, or Acts 28 Dispensationalism.
Instead of recognizing that the Church began in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost when the disciples received the promised Holy Spirit the ultra-dispensationalist would insert another dispensation or division into the Bible and would hold that the Church did not begin till later after Paul’s conversion. The three most common ultra-dispensationalist views see the church beginning in Acts 9, Acts 13 or Acts 28. Some ultra-dispensationalists place the beginning of the church with Paul’s conversion others like one of the first ultra-dispensationalists, Ethelbert W. Bulinger place the beginning of the church even later with Paul’s imprisonment in Rome. In doing so they see the church in Acts as being a separate “Hebrew or Jewish Church” than the “mystery” church to which Paul wrote his prison epistles. They believe that the books of Peter, James, Jude, Hebrews and the epistles of John are all addressed to the Hebrew Church, which is different from the “body of Christ.” This Jewish Church, which is built on Kingdom promises, will be reestablished during the millennium and will worship at the rebuilt Temple with atoning sacrifices.
However the greatest problem with Ultra-dispensationalism is not when they believe the church began but with the many other errors that come from their approach to Scripture. For example at the heart of most forms of ultra-dispensationalism is the belief that Paul preached a different gospel than what the other Apostles taught. Paul’s prison epistles only apply directly to the “body of Christ” or Gentile church, the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper are relegated to the old dispensation and are not to be practiced by the church today. In reality what ultra-dispensationalists do is wrongly divide the Word of God and end up chewing the Bible up and splitting it into little pieces.
Other heresies that are common to some types of ultra-dispensationalist include such things as soul sleep and annihilationism. Still others proclaim a brand of universalism that grants salvation even to Satan himself. Without a doubt whatever name you want to call it ultra-dispensationalism is a dangerous error that almost always leads to other even worse errors and often outright heretical teachings.
H. A Ironside, a strong dispensationalist himself wrote a very good booklet outlining some of the dangers of ultra-dispensationalism and in it says that he has “no hesitancy in saying that its fruits are evil. It has produced a tremendous crop of heresies throughout the length and breadth of this and other lands; it has divided Christians and wrecked churches and assemblies without number; it has lifted up its votaries in intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent, so that they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views; and in most instances where it has been long tolerated, it has absolutely throttled Gospel effort at home and sown discord on missionary fields abroad. So true are these things of this system that I have no hesitancy in saying it is an absolutely Satanic perversion of the truth.”
http://www.gotquestions.org/ultra-dispensationalism.html
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BAPTISM:
Paul was baptized - Acts 9:18; 1 Cor. 11:1
Paul baptized the Philippian Jailer - Acts 16:23
We are to follow Stephanas' household - 1 Cor. 16:15 (cp) 1 Cor. 1:14-15.
People were baptized under Pauls authority - Acts 18:8 & Acts 19:1-5
THE CHURCH:
Paul persecuted it before he got saved - 1 Cor. 15:9; Gal. 1:13; Phil. 3:6.
Paul's kinfolk were in Christ before him - Rom. 16:7.
The apostles were in Christ before Paul - Gal. 1:22-24.
God added to the church daily before Paul was saved - Acts 2:47.
QUESTION??
When did the body of Christ start???
Christ purchased the church (singular) with His blood - Acts 20:28.
NOTE:
If the church did not start until Acts 28, then Paul was not in the body for nearly 30 years.
If the church did not start until Acts 18, then Paul was not in the body for nearly 20 years.
If the church did not start until Acts 13, then Paul was not in the body for nearly 10 years.
The Hyper-Dispensationalism viewpoint is that there are two bodies: Acts 2-9 & Acts 9-28.
We are in ONE body through Christ - Gal. 3:14; Rom. 12:4-5.
The body started in Christ (not Paul). Note: Col. 1:18.
Christ is the head and only one body started with His head.
AT THE CROSS: AT THE CROSS:
WHERE I FIRST SAW THE LIGHT!
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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epouraniois,
We do not teach Hyper-Dispensationalism on this message board. If you want to discuss it, then you can ONLY do so in the Exposing False Teaching section of this message board.
That is why I am moving this thread to that area.
Warning:
If you continue to bring this teaching into the bible study and other areas I will be forced to remove you from this message board.
You are welcome to stay, but you are not welcome to teach Hyper-Dispensationalism and start a debate about it on every post.
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Did the 12 and Paul teach the same gospel?
Acts 21:20-22, (NKJ)
20 And when they [James and the elders at Jerusalem] heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him [Paul], Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 "but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
22 "What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.
It is clear in Acts 21:20-22 above that James and the elders at Jerusalem saw a difference in what they were preaching and in what Paul was preaching, that Paul was teaching the Gentiles they did NOT have to keep the Law of Moses. That must mean that the 12 were still teaching that a person HAD TO keep the Law of Moses.
To say that the 12 and Paul were teaching the same gospel is to ignore the scriptures. We learn at the very end of Acts, in the last letter written during that time (Romans) that Paul "fully preached the gospel of Christ.":-
Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
And yet, there is not one word of a church called His body, not one word about any company being chosen and called into 'the high calling', nor of anyone having any hope of going to the 'heavenly places' to be with the Lord there. The Prison Epistle ministry had not brought the revelation of the mystery to to Israel or any0one else at that time.
But after Acts 28:28, when the apostle does receive the revelation of the mystery, it is not the same at all. It does not look for an earthly kingdom as did Israel during the Acts. It effectively places Israel amidst the nations having no preiminence as they did during the Acts ministry. The Israelite hope had come and gone. Dispensation is the Biblical word we find the apostle using towards this change.
Rather, we read the instruction that these new epistles place Paul as a prisoner for the hope of you gentiles, straightway declaring that these Prison Epistles are written to a company chosen "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world", "who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ".
There had been no words to this affect in the entire Bible until after "the Salvation of God is (present tense=now) sent to the nations and they will hear", Acts 28:28.
Clearly heavenly places where this church is raised and "made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" cannot be the same as Israel's blessings earthly kingdom blessings and calling.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
The 12 never preached this. Paul did not even preach this during the Acts, wherein the Jew was first. Yet, during the Acts Paul is able to rightly say "I have fully preached the gospel of Christ"
But the inspired apostle does not leave us wanting, he explains this to us over and over again. But here he testifies that it is this that completes the word of God:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill (complete) the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints
Wherein before this revelation we had read that even the Lord Christ Jesus did not reveal 'all truth', but that he would send 'all truth' through the Holy Spirit, which He did when He sent the gentiles an apostle to reveal the mystery, or secret:
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Eph 1:16
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers,
Eph 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints
Eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ
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