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Author
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Topic: Joyce Meyer$ convention here in Birmingham.
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wparr
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posted
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: But the Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which can not be uttered.
This does not specifically mean praying in tounges as some try to make it mean.
with groanings which can not be uttered to me can mean a groaning of your heart, or spirit.
A type of heart pain.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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wparr
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posted
NO I'm not accusing you of pride.
My warning is to believer's in general.
I've met many who equate that praying In The Spirit MUST be praying in tounges.
And of those, many think they are more "spiritual" than those who don't, and they look down their noses at them.
I was told by an AOG pastor basically if you don't speak in tounges, your nothing.
We are not to know Christians by their gifts and abilities, but by their fruit.
Pride is a tool of the enemy, and when a believer claims to be more "spiritual" because they can speak and pray in tounges, it reveals a fruit not of God's Spirit.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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WhiteEagle
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posted
Even more I wish to give a testimony:
I have discovered (and I'm pretty dense at times) that while I can pray and sense God's presence when I'm alone with God, that God's presence is even greater among a group of believers.
At any of your own church services, while God CAN minister to you in you seat, please know there is something very awesome about shaking off ones' pride and going down to the altar area and being publicly humble before God in the presence of other believers. When we publically make a stand and says I will Follow Jesus, God's presence is so strong and beautiful, that I don't want to leave it, and wish to take it with me to work and anywhere.
This is where change of heart comes in, as I do not want to sin as I do not want the Lord's presence/communion to leave me.
All of that said I do believe that God's presence is always with me, even If I do not have communion with Him, but it's that sweet communion part I wish to get with me as much as possible.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Praying In The Spirit DOES NOT MEAN PRAYING IN TOUNGES
CAN NOT
Ephesians 6:18
With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints.
IF Praying In the Spirit specifically ment Praying In Tounges, then that could be the ONLY way you could pray.
Praying In Tounges CAN be Praying In The Spirit (or it can be a load of garbage learned) but doesn't HAVE to be.
You pray in tounges?
BEWARE OF PRIDE
That you think your more spititual, better than believers that don't
wparr, I'm not sure if you are accusing me of pride. Are you?
What I wrote is what I'm currently learning in my walk with God. No I can't speak in tongues, but I have prayed in the Spirit. And I believe I have experienced the verse in Romans 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: But the Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which can not be uttered.
God's healing me and many times I will sit and just sob and it shakes my whole body with sobbing, not just crying.
I have many good Christian friends who can speak in tongues, and I've closely observed their walk, and there is fruit of God in their lives.
There will always be misuse of any of God's gifts, not just tongues. A person has the ability to misuse the gift of hospitality or music or teaching and preaching. Tongues is only one of the gifts.
Walking with God is an awesome journey, and it's not easy to die to self and submit.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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wparr
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posted
Praying In The Spirit DOES NOT MEAN PRAYING IN TOUNGES
CAN NOT
Ephesians 6:18
With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints.
IF Praying In the Spirit specifically ment Praying In Tounges, then that could be the ONLY way you could pray.
Praying In Tounges CAN be Praying In The Spirit (or it can be a load of garbage learned) but doesn't HAVE to be.
You pray in tounges?
BEWARE OF PRIDE
That you think your more spititual, better than believers that don't
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by JAVA:
please understand the line i quoted was to convey the glitz and glam that was associated with the spectacle of the SHOW that i witnessed and was sarcasam on my behalf because i felt as if i was in fact in a wwf type environment. Sean michaels who was in the wwf and is a born again used this term. i liked it.
As i said J-M was litteraly instructing ppl how to speak in tongues saying just do this..... please read what is posted.
![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
I did already read what you posted and while I do agree with you that Tongues can't be taught as you say Joyce Meyer was attempting to do, that on the other hand God does use other Christians to be a helper in aiding people to receive the the gift of tongues. No one can teach us the heavenly language, as it does come from the Holy Spirit and is not instructable.
What is instructable is teaching people how to receive the gift.
Tongues edifies the believer in the inner spirit, and we are told to pray in the Spirit. Signs of faith in God will follow the believer. Tongues is one of those signs of faith.
Many well meaning Evangelicals have attempted to push the gift of tongues on everyone, or say that if you don't speak in tongues you aren't saved, or say that everyone will speak in tongues, so they have services to try to force a gift of God.
What errors man has done, doesn't negate that Tongues have Not ceased, and that they are God's gift to them that believe. When one allows the Holy Spirit to fall on one, it's scary. It's being in a state of submission to God alone by one's choice. We hand over control to God. Very scary at first and continues to be a struggle between our will and God's will.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Still it does not say come back and sale your goods when you can play fair. Where would one see a house of prayer and house of selling things as the same thing?
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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BORN AGAIN
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Dear JAVA, you write quote:
As I said J-M was literally instructing ppl how to speak in tongues saying just do this..... please read what is posted.
I would however add that she is not the only one who does this in the USA. Probably most if not all "evangelical" (translate: "tongue-speaking") churches think it is okay to do that. I myself was asked to sit a number of times in a chair in a church after which the "elders" laid hands on me (translate: "rubbed my head vigorously") and said, "Just speak the first thing that comes up, even if it's just a syllable".
But I knew from the Bible that when the Spirit came upon the NT Galilean apostles that they instantly spoke whole languages and the apostles did NOT start with "just speak the first thing out, even if it's just a syllable" so I didn't do it.
Moreover, I also felt that it was impossible to tell whether "that syllable" came from my own fleshly mind or from the devil or from the Holy Spirit, so again I didn't do it on that basis either.
My point thus is, JAVA, that Joyce Meyer is NOT AN EXCEPTION in doing such a thing, but rather is part of a MAJORITY within "evangelical" Christendom in the USA which does that, to its shame, I think (but they are still bornagain Christians, let me add).
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
TEXASGRANDMA writes quote:
Jesus threw the Religious Leaders of His time out of the temple for turning God's House of Worship into a den of thieves.
Not true. Jesus threw those who sold and bought out of the temple:
Luke 19
45 And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them who sold therein and them who bought;
46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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TEXASGRANDMA
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My point was that some people were taught as kids to do this. True, it is interesting that someone would still do this today.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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JAVA
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posted
Tongues are a gift of the spirit, not something that can be taught by man.
Speaking in tongues is still a gift the Holy Spirit can give anyone to this day. But Joyce Meyers was INSTRUCTING ppl how to speak in tongues and that is NOT a gift of the spirit as the wisdom of man is foolishness to God.
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I do not either believe that the gift of tongues has ceased. I believe that God still gives the gift of tongues when and where it is needed.
However, there is not one place in the Bible that speaks of tongues being taught by men, lest it be not the "gift of tongues". Nor is there any example in the Bible of the manifestation of the gift of tongues as some unintelligible blabbering.....we should call it what it is the gift of LANGUAGE.... the Holy Ghost empowered ability to speak to someone in Swahili if you dont know and have never learned to speak in Swahili or Telugu or Kazakh or some other language where the hearer would glorify God in the hearing of the word of God in his native tongue from your un-native mouth.
I would say that if you have not had the opportunity to speak the words of God to someone who hears a language that is unknown to you, then you probably do not have the gift because frankly I cannot see God equiping you to look and sound like a fool and HIS interest is in having HIS word heard and HIS person glorified and HIS body edified and babbling a bunch of nonsensical sounds that can be linguistically proven to be learned sounds of your own native lanuage is not edifying or glorifying to anyone but the enemy.
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wparr
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posted
That there is so much counterfit, false use and abuse of tounges is proof that they are still for today.
If it weren't still valid for today, then satan wouldn't be trying to corrut the Spirit led use by counterfitting false use and abuse.
Satan is at war with God and His Church, he's not going to waste his resources and efforts needlessly.
Anything God does, satan tries to counterfit and corrupt.
I would say most use of tounges today is false or abusive,
but that can't be a means to discredit TRUE Spirit led use.
That's part of the goal of the enemy by counterfitting.
To divide the Church:
Some going in one dirrection by operating in satan's counterfit;
Others going in the other direction by deny the TRUE Spirit led use altogeather.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I do not believe tongues have ceased. There is a need for this gift until Jesus sets up His Kindgom on earth after the Second Coming. Then God talks about how He will not have to teach people about God because I will know God.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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oneyearandcounting
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posted
I must disagree with your post that tongues have already ceased.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
So if tongues have failed. When did knowledge fail. Or prophesing. This verse in 1Corinthians is letting us know that Charity (or love) will never fail. Why won't it ever fail?
Because even in heaven we will have love. But once in heaven there will won't be any need of knowlege or prophsies, or even speaking in tongues. But we will still need and have love (or charity). That it what Paul ment by saying that tongues would fail. In Heaven how many languages will we need? Only one and that will be that language that God gives us.
Matthew Henry says it like this. "From its longer continuance and duration: Charity never faileth. It is a permanent and perpetual grace, lasting as eternity; whereas the extraordinary gifts on which the Corinthians valued themselves were of short continuance. They were only to edify the church on earth, and that but for a time, not during its whole continuance in this world; but in heaven would be all superseded, which yet is the very seat and element of love. Prophecy must fail, that is, either the prediction of things to come (which is its most common sense) or the interpretation of scripture by immediate inspiration. Tongues will cease, that is, the miraculous power of speaking languages without learning them. There will be but one language in heaven. There is no confusion of tongues in the region of perfect tranquility. And knowledge will vanish away. Not that, in the perfect state above, holy and happy souls shall be unknowing, ignorant: it is a very poor happiness that can consist with utter ignorance. The apostle is plainly speaking of miraculous gifts, and therefore of knowledge to be had out of the common way (see ch. xiv. 6), a knowledge of mysteries supernaturally communicated. Such knowledge was to vanish away. Some indeed understand it of common knowledge acquired by instruction, taught and learnt. This way of knowing is to vanish away, though the knowledge itself, once acquired, will not be lost. But it is plain that the apostle is here setting the grace of charity in opposition to supernatural gifts. And it is more valuable, because more durable; it shall last, when they shall be no more; it shall enter into heaven, where they will have no place, because they will be of no use, though, in a sense, even our common knowledge may be said to cease in heaven, by reason of the improvement that will then be made in it. The light of a candle is perfectly obscured by the sun shining in its strength."
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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WildB
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posted
When Did the Gift of Tongues Cease?
By Pastor Dennis Kiszonas
No one was more "charismatic" than the Apostle Paul. He wrote to the Corinthian church that "they came behind no other church" when it came to the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 1:7)—no church had more of the gifts of the Holy Spirit than the Corinthian church, yet Paul says that he spoke in tongues more than all of them (1 Cor. 14:18)!
No one was more charismatic than Paul, yet the Lord revealed to him that those sign gifts were going to cease:
"whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away" (1 Cor. 13:8).1
Here Paul writes of the gift of tongues, the gift of prophecy and the gift of knowledge (see 1 Cor. 13:1-2) and states that the Lord Jesus had revealed to him (1 Cor. 11:23; 15:3; Gal. 1:11,12) that a time was coming when these sign gifts were going to cease to operate.
The question has always been: when? When would these gifts cease?
This study focuses on that question—when did the sign gifts cease?
Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them
We begin by setting up a time line of Paul's ministry. Paul was saved in Acts 9 when the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Paul would go on to write 13 letters in the New Testament—from the Letter to the Romans to the Letter to Philemon. When we remember that Paul is the subject of at least half of the Book of Acts, we realize that half of the 27 books in the New Testament are either about him (The Book of Acts) or were written by him (13 letters).
Paul's letters are arranged in our Bible by two principles: The letters to the churches are put first—nine letters from Romans to 2 Thessalonians, then the four letters written to individuals—from 1 Timothy to Philemon.
The letters are also arranged by length—Romans is longest and is first, then the Corinthian letters, then Galatians, etc. Longer letters are first, shorter ones later.
But to understand when the sign gifts ceased, we need to read Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them. When we arrange the letters in the order that they were written, all becomes clear!
Paul's Letters in the order that he wrote them:
The first 6 of Paul's letters can be fit into the Book of Acts—we can read Acts and then read Paul's letters and we can see where Paul was when he wrote these letters.
The Letter to the Galatians is first
In Acts 13,14 Paul and Barnabas went on their first apostolic journey which took them into Galatia—cities like Antioch, Lystra, Derbe, etc. Soon after Paul returned from this journey he wrote the letter to the Galatians (see Galatians 1:6 where Paul writes to the Galatians and says, you are "so quickly turned."). Galatians was written soon after Paul returned from that first journey—soon after Acts 14:27. That makes Galatians the earliest of Paul's letters.
1 and 2 Thessalonians
The next letters Paul wrote are the two letters to the Thessalonians. In Acts 17, Paul, on his second apostolic journey, came to Thessalonica and preached there. Many were saved, but Paul was driven out of town. Paul continued on to Corinth where he wrote the two letters to the Thessalonians. Timothy's return from Macedonia mentioned in Acts 18:5 is also reported in 1 Thessalonians 3:6. And in 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Paul reminds the Thessalonians of his teaching, as if it had not been very long since he had been with them. So the writing of 1 and 2 Thessalonians can be placed into Acts 18 during Paul's ministry in Corinth, and that makes them the second and third letters that Paul wrote.
1 and 2 Corinthians
The next two letters that Paul wrote are the two letters to the Corinthians. In Acts 18 Paul spent a year and a half ministering in Corinth—see Acts 18:11. He later returned to his home base at Antioch (Acts 18:22), and later in his third apostolic journey he arrived in Ephesus (his ministry in Ephesus extends all the way through Acts 19—a period of more than two years, see verse 10). It is here in Ephesus during Acts 19 that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians—see I Corinthians 16:19. Shortly after that Paul traveled to Macedonia (see Acts 20:1 and 2 Cor. 2:13) and that is where he wrote the second letter to the Corinthians.
Romans
In Acts 20:2,3 Paul arrived in "Greece," i.e. in Corinth again, and spent three months there enjoying the hospitality of a believer named Gaius (mentioned in 1 Cor. 1:14). In Gaius's home, in Corinth, Paul wrote the letter to the Romans (see Rom. 16:23).
This is the last letter written during the Book of Acts. In Acts 21:33 Paul was arrested in Jerusalem, and would spend the next 5 years in prison, right through the end of the Book of Acts.
So, to sum up what we have seen so far, from Acts 9 through Acts 28 we read of the earlier ministry of the Apostle Paul and find that during these years he wrote 6 of his 13 letters. The order of these first six books is:
1. Galatians—end of Acts 14
2. 1 Thessalonians—Acts 18
3. 2 Thessalonians—Acts 18
4. 1 Corinthians—Acts 19
5. 2 Corinthians—Acts 20
6. Romans—Acts 20
In Acts 21 Paul was arrested and remained a prisoner through to Acts 28, and beyond.
The Prison Epistles—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon, and Philippians
Shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while he was still a prisoner, now in Rome, Paul wrote four letters—the "prison epistles": Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians. In each of these letters he writes of his "chains"—see Ephesians 6:20, Colossians 4:18, Philemon 13 and Philippians 1:13.
The Pastoral Epistles—The letters to Titus, First and Second Timothy
Paul was released from this imprisonment and continued his ministry for a few years, perhaps 3 years. During this time he wrote the three letters known as the "Pastoral Epistles," because these letters were written to Paul's co-workers—Pastor Timothy and Titus. Finally at the end of his life he is again in prison. This time he anticipates being beheaded for the Lord and writes the last letter, Second Timothy.
Summary:
We have surveyed the 13 letters written by the Apostle Paul, arranging them in the order in which Paul wrote them:
During the Book of Acts—6 letters:
1. Galatians
2. & 3. The Thessalonian letters
4. & 5. The Corinthian letters
6. Romans
Then after the Book of Acts ends—7 more letters:
The 4 Prison Epistles:
7. Ephesians
8. Colossians
9. Philemon
10. Philippians
Then the 3 Pastoral Epistles:
11. Titus
12. 1 Timothy
13. 2 Timothy
Now let's read the letters in the order Paul wrote them
Having surveyed the 13 letters and having put them into their chronological order, let's see what they tell us about the question: when did the sign gifts cease?
In the first six letters, all written during the period covered by the Book of Acts, we find that the sign gifts were operating in all these churches. All through the Book of Acts we read of tongues, the gift of prophecy, the gift of healing, etc.—for example, tongues and prophecy in Acts 19:6, the gift of prophecy in Acts 21:10-14, the gift of healing in Acts 19:11-12 and 28:8,9, etc.
And in the "Acts Epistles" we read of the gifts operating in the churches that Paul founded. In Galatians 3:5, 1 Thessalonians 5:20, 1 Corinthians 12,13,14, 2 Corinthians 12:12, Romans 12:6—in all these letters we read about the gifts in operation right through to the end of the Book of Acts.
But, during this time in the Book of Acts, the Lord revealed to Paul that the sign gifts were going to cease—1 Corinthians 13:8-12. The gifts were all in operation all through the Book of Acts period and are mentioned in the letters written during that time, but the Lord had revealed that the sign gifts were going to cease at some time in the future.
When the gift of tongues ceased
Now we turn to the prison epistles, the four letters written shortly after the end of the Book of Acts, while Paul was a prisoner in Rome—Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon and Philippians...and we find that there is not one word about tongues, or the gift of healing. Even where we might have expected Paul to write of tongues in the passage about being "filled with the Spirit" in Ephesians 5:17, he has nothing to say about tongues. And as for the gift of healing, we read of a co-worker of Paul's, Epaphroditus, who fell seriously ill during this time (Phil. 2:25-30) and Paul no longer had the gift of healing, and was no longer able to heal as he did only a few years earlier in Acts 28:9. The sign gifts were no longer operating at the time that Paul wrote the Prison Epistles.
Tongues in the Pastoral Epistles?
In the 3 Pastoral Epistles, as in the prison epistles, we do not read of tongues or the gift of healing operating at this time. We do read of prophecies that had been made about Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:18 and 4:14 and 2 Timothy 1:6, but these were given years before. So far as we read in these three letters, we wouldn't even know that there had been a "gift of tongues."
And, again, in places where we would have expected Paul to mention the sign gifts, he is silent. When Paul gives Timothy and Titus instructions regarding the choice of men to be elders in the churches, Paul says nothing about the desirability of these men having a gift such as prophecy, or healing, or other sign gifts (see Titus 1:6-9 and 1 Tim. 3:1-10). The gifts of tongues, prophecy, etc. were no longer in operation by the time Paul wrote the pastoral epistles.
It is clear that the gift of healing has ceased because, as in Philippians, Paul was no longer able to heal, even his co-workers. Timothy was suffering stomach problems and frequent infirmities (1 Tim. 5:23) and Paul can't heal him, doesn't recommend that he go to a healer in the church, doesn't send a prayer cloth or a bottle of anointing oil (remember the miracles of some 8 years earlier in Acts 19:11-12). Likewise in 2 Timothy 4:20, Paul has to leave behind his co-worker Trophimus who had fallen sick on the last journey. Paul's gift of healing (Acts 28:9) was no longer operating in Philippians 2:27, 1 Timothy 5:23 and 2 Timothy 4:20.
Summary
The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren't mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul's life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn't heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts.
Arranging Paul's letters in the order that he wrote them allows us to see the pattern of truth that is found in the Word of God:
The sign gifts were operating in Acts and in all of the Acts Epistles: Galatians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Corinthians and Romans.
But in this time period, in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, Paul tells us that the Lord had revealed to him that these gifts would cease some day. And they did, because in the letters written after the Book of Acts, the sign gifts had ceased, just as the Lord said that they would.
The pattern could not be clearer, and the contrast could not be sharper between the earlier letters and the later letters, between the time when all the sign gifts were operating, and the time when all the sign gifts had ceased.
We can now give a scriptural answer to the question that we started with: when did the sign gifts cease?
The answer: The sign gifts ceased at the end of the Book of Acts. There is no record in Scripture of any of the sign gifts operating in any of the letters that Paul wrote after the end of the Acts period, and it is clear that the gift of healing had ceased since Paul could no longer heal even his closest co-workers after the close of the Book of Acts.
Why did the sign gifts cease?
Having seen the pattern of truth regarding the gifts, we need to ask, why did the gifts cease at this time?
Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:8-12—
"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
The gift of tongues, prophecy and knowledge during the Acts period were only "in part"—they were incomplete, they did not communicate the full knowledge that the Lord had to reveal. But the Lord revealed to Paul that "that which is perfect" was coming. In English, as in Greek, this is a neuter pronoun—"that thing which is perfect." Paul was not writing about the coming of "He who is perfect" but of the coming of a "thing" which is perfect. When it came, then the gifts which were only "in part" would cease.
It would be like the difference between being a child and becoming a grown man, or between seeing someone's face reflected in a wavy ancient mirror, and seeing the person face-to-face.
Before the end of the Book of Acts, during the Acts period, and in the letters written during the Acts period, the Lord had only revealed part of the "dispensation of grace" (Eph. 3:2) to the Apostle Paul, but He had not yet revealed the entire message to him. It was still only "in part" during the Acts period, but with the close of the Book of Acts, the Lord completed the revelation of the "Mystery" (see Eph. 3:3,4,9 and Col. 1:26,27, etc.). "That which is perfect" was finally revealed in all its fullness to the Apostle Paul and at that moment, those things which were only "in part" passed away from God's program.
Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:12—
"Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."
When Paul wrote "now I know in part," he used the common word for "know," the Greek word gnosis.
But then, when he wrote "but then I shall know..." he changes the word from gnosis to epignosis, "to fully know."
We could paraphrase Paul's statement: "Now, as I'm writing 1 Corinthians in Acts 19, I have gnosis—I know, in part, what God's message is for us today in the dispensation of grace, but then—when that which is perfect has come—I shall have epignosis—the full knowledge of God's message of grace for us today."
All through the Book of Acts Paul had only "gnosis," partial knowledge of the message of grace, but when we turn to the Prison Letters we suddenly find Paul using that word "epignosis"—he had now received that "full knowledge" which he didn't have when he wrote to the Corinthians:
"For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge (epignosis—full knowledge) of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ" (Col. 2:1-2).
"For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge (epignosis—full knowledge) of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light" (Col. 1:9-12).
In all the seven letters written after the close of the Book of Acts, Paul uses this word "epignosis"—the full knowledge. What he had not yet received in 1 Corinthians 13, he now has. That which is perfect had come and so the sign gifts had passed away.
The "sign gifts" were signs for God's "sign people"
The close of the Book of Acts was also the close of God's dealings with the nation of Israel for now nearly 2000 years. Acts 28:25-28 stands as God's last words to the nation of Israel for nearly two millennia. The Jews sought after signs (1 Cor. 1:22) so God gave them signs—among the Gentiles!—in order to provoke Israel to jealousy (Rom. 11:14). But with the close of Acts, God sets aside Israel for a time, and when God gave up on the "sign people" for a time, the sign gifts passed out of His program.
I speak in tongues, what should I do?
Many Christians today have had an experience that they think is the scriptural gift of tongues. After studying Paul's letters and the scriptural teaching concerning the cessation of the gift of tongues, they ask, "What should I do now?" There are several possible explanations for the experience—it may be a psychological experience or even a spiritual experience, but clearly, from the Word of God, it is not the Spirit's gift of tongues.
What should they do? Simply: Stop! Stop speaking in the tongue because it is not from the Holy Spirit.
For many this is a great relief. They've been taught that a person has to speak in tongues to prove that he is really saved, or that he really has the Holy Spirit dwelling within. So they've "learned" to speak in tongues, but when they see from Scripture that this gift is not in operation from the Lord today, they can at last cease their effort to prove their salvation and start to walk by faith and not by sight.
For some, Paul's instructions to the prophets at Corinth will be pertinent:
"If anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:30-33).
When we are having an experience that we learn from the Scriptures is not from the Lord, it is time to "keep silent," and remember that our spirits are to be under our own control—"the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets."
The Lord's warning
The Lord warned that experiences can be deceiving:
"Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matt. 7:22-23).
Yes, they really had had these experiences. They had prophesied in Jesus' name, they had cast out demons and done miracles in His name. The Lord does not deny that they had done these things. But then He tells them that even while they were doing these things, He had never ever known them. It is important that our faith be based on the Word of God and not on experiences because experiences can deceive us.
A note about the gift of healing
As we have seen, Paul was able to heal many sick people all through the Book of Acts. He healed every sick person on the Island of Malta in Acts 28. And he wrote to the Corinthians about the gift of healing that was operating in their church during the Acts period (1 Cor. 12:9). But we have also seen that with the close of the Book of Acts, the gift of healing ceased to operate. Paul could no longer heal anyone—not Epaphroditus in Philippians 2, not Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:23, not Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4:20. The gift of healing had ceased to operate, along with the other sign gifts.
Today God no longer gives the gift of healing, and there are no "healers." But we should not think that God Himself no longer heals! In Philippians 2 we read of a healing that God did after the gift of healing had ceased to operate:
"Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, but your messenger and the one who ministered to my need; since he was longing for you all, and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick.
"For indeed he was sick almost unto death; but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
"Therefore I sent him the more eagerly, that when you see him again you may rejoice, and I may be less sorrowful.
"Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness, and hold such men in esteem; because for the work of Christ he came close to death, not regarding his life, to supply what was lacking in your service toward me" (Phil. 2:25-30).
Paul commends Epaphroditus very highly for his faithfulness even unto death. But when Epaphroditus fell sick—near to death—Paul was no longer able to heal him because the gift of healing had ceased to operate. But we read that Epaphroditus was healed—directly by the Lord: "He was sick unto death but the Lord had mercy on him...."
There is healing today, but there is no gift of healing, there are no "divine healers." There is no gift of healing today but God still heals... sometimes. He healed Epaphroditus, but He did not heal Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 or in Galatians 4:13-15, or Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:23, or Trophimus in 2 Timothy 4:20. He heals according to His will today. But the promise that He gave to Paul is still our promise today in the dispensation of grace:
"My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Cor. 12:9).
Whether we are well or sick, whether we are like Epaphroditus or like Timothy, we can always claim this promise from the Lord that His grace and strength are sufficient for us. He never allows us to suffer something that He doesn't give us the strength to live through.
Endnote
1. All references have been taken from the New King James Version.
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1064006213.html
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by JAVA:
1 Cor 7-14
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, JUST AS HE DETERMINES.
ONLY the Lord has the power to bestow these gifts. J-M must think that she is God then.
What a presumptuous charlatan J-M is to think that She somehow has the power to bestow a gift of the Spirit on another. I was totaly blown away. ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE LORD IS COOKIN! ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
You quote a copied line from WWF and the Rock and associate with the most Holy God Almighty?????
Here's a scripture in Acts that demonstrates that the gift of speaking in tongues can be given to another:
Acts 10:44-46 While Peter was still speaking these words, The Holy Spirit came down to all those who heard the message. The circumcised believers were astonished because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speaking in tongues and declaring the greatness of God.
Also Acts 19:6 And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to to speak with other tongues and to prophecy.
Don't you know your Bible?
As to whether Joyce Meyer is the real deal I'll leave that for God to judge.
1Cor.1
1. [22] For the Jews require a sign;
Isa.28
1. [11] For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
1Cor.14
1. [22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:
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That is all.....
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TEXASGRANDMA
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When I was a kid, they taught people how to speak in tongues. Because of this I am unsure of my own state in this matter. Simply, because I spoke alittle but then at this point of my life I began to have issues with OCD (of course I did not know about OCD till recently from Pastor Jim), all I knew then was the devil told me lies and made me very afraid of the Holy Spirit. These lies that he told a young child of 7 have haunted me all my life.
To be honest, those who taught this way thought they were doing the right thing. Our Pastor was telling us that as a teenager he had been taught what to say when wittnessing. He said that is not the way to do things. We do not teach people what to say. Jesus did not tell the discples what to say. In fact He told them the Holy Spirit would tell them what to say when they opened their mouth to speak. We are studying about the Holy Spirit at Church. Don't be too hard on these people. They may be in error and not know they are.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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JAVA
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posted
please understand the line i quoted was to convey the glitz and glam that was associated with the spectacle of the SHOW that i witnessed and was sarcasam on my behalf because i felt as if i was in fact in a wwf type environment. Sean michaels who was in the wwf and is a born again used this term. i liked it.
As i said J-M was litteraly instructing ppl how to speak in tongues saying just do this..... please read what is posted.
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by JAVA:
1 Cor 7-14
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, JUST AS HE DETERMINES.
ONLY the Lord has the power to bestow these gifts. J-M must think that she is God then.
What a presumptuous charlatan J-M is to think that She somehow has the power to bestow a gift of the Spirit on another. I was totaly blown away.
CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE LORD IS COOKIN!
You quote a copied line from WWF and the Rock and associate with the most Holy God Almighty?????
Here's a scripture in Acts that demonstrates that the gift of speaking in tongues can be given to another:
Acts 10:44-46 While Peter was still speaking these words, The Holy Spirit came down to all those who heard the message. The circumcised believers were astonished because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speaking in tongues and declaring the greatness of God.
Also Acts 19:6 And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began to to speak with other tongues and to prophecy.
Don't you know your Bible?
As to whether Joyce Meyer is the real deal I'll leave that for God to judge.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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JAVA
Advanced Member
Member # 4576
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posted
OMG!!! I just got back from the last "show" this afternoon and what **** !!!!!
J-O had the nerve to give out a tape on HOW to speak in toungues!!!!! AFTER she had everyone stand up and do it. She said just do this "tatatnashadanatananaqtatp" ect ect... I could not sit there longer or I would have yelled out in protest or have died laughing. ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
1 Cor 7-14
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, JUST AS HE DETERMINES.
ONLY the Lord has the power to bestow these gifts. J-M must think that she is God then.
Mat 24 4;5
4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
Rev 16;13-
13Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
What a presumptuous charlatan J-M is to think that She somehow has the power to bestow a gift of the Spirit on another. I was totaly blown away.
CAN YOU SMELL WHAT THE LORD IS COOKIN!
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Jesus threw the Relegious Leaders of His time out of the temple for turning God's House of Worship into a den of theifs. Today people again have put the Gospel on sale. God help us.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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JAVA
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posted
Well I have been giong to the J-M convention here in B'ham Al and I must say I am very impressed at all the literature they have there. ALL FOR $ALE.
THOUSANDS of videos, books, self help this and that all by Meyer, . OH OH sign me up for one of those Bibles with "Joyce Meyers Ministries" embossed in gold on the front. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
J-M spent more time selling stuff than Jesus. She has probably 40 or 50 books in this catalog that IS free and they make sure you have it by asking you to wave it over your head at the start of the sales pitch, I mean, event.
She DOES use scripture though throughout the entire sermon ulike the more popular J-O (osteen
), however limited in time that might be to allot for MORE $$$$$$$ELLING.
It was a pathetic display of how the Lord Jesus is being turned, by some, into financial gain. She did have good things to say, and her band awesome. But I see why that is. It is more a show than a worship and fellowship in the Lord. It is a glitzy sales event, complete with a fog machine.
You can say great things and ride on the shoulders of others to make profit. JUST DONT USE JESUS TO DOO IT
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JAVA, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose."
Posts: 147 | From: Columbia South Carolina | Registered: Apr 2005
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