|
Author
|
Topic: Born and then Unborn?
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
quote:
What comes out of our mouths and from our actions is indicative of what is in our hearts.
Remember this! Every statement you make can be weighed by it.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
What comes out of our mouths and from our actions is indicative of what is in our hearts.
Boldness of truth is just one facet that follows the conviction of ones belief in a Biblical presentation of Christ.
Phil.4
[12] I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Having the knowledge of being Sealed and being lead by the Spirit is a Must for proper direction.
Phil.4
[7] And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Are you at peace my friend?
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
quote:
Man can't unseal the SEAL of God.
Once you are SEALED YOUR SEALED unto the day of redemption.
Eph.4
No, man can't 'unseal' it. And a man only gets saved once! Doesn't matter if he backslides, he doesn't 'lose' his salvation. But on judgment day he will be appointed his portion with the unbelievers.
And there shall be "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
WildB.....only Yahweh determines who is sealed and at what point in their relationship with Yahshua...with that said anyone that backslides could never be sealed as you continually bring out ...
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Man can't unseal the SEAL of God.
Once you are SEALED YOUR SEALED unto the day of redemption.
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
covered-by-Him
New Member
Member # 7265
|
posted
becausehelives,
thank you for this info. I was raised independent baptist and they preached eternal security to the point I think they were just trying to convince themselves.
But even as a child I wondered about the validity of it.
so much to consider here...
--------------------
Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in
temples made with hands… (Acts 7:48)
Posts: 3 | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
practicalbibleteaching this topic will never disappear until Yahshua returns...and it is not stirring anything up to pursue the Truth from the heart of a Bearen... ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
Is "Unconditional Eternal Security" Biblical?
Man's opinion...
Did you hear...
The lion shall lay down with the lamb...
There were three wisemen that visited the baby Jesus in the manger...
Noah had two of each kind of animal on the ark...
The Catholic doctrine of the "Immaculate Conception" is about the miraculous birth of Jesus...
God helps those who help themselves...
There are many misconceptions about the Bible. Many people believe that the above statements/doctrines are in the Bible... simply because someone told them that they are there. The fact is, none of these quotes can be found anywhere near the Old or New Testaments. So with a penchant for the Truth and nothing but the Truth, the question that we will be asking in this particular study is:
Is the Doctrine of "Unconditional Eternal Security" Biblical?
The debate has been waging for centuries between the Calvinists, who believe that you cannot lose your salvation under any circumstances, and the Arminians who believe that under certain extreme conditions, that your salvation can be forfeited. But the fact of the matter is, we really don't care what MAN has to say about the subject. As in all issues of eternal importance, we must get God's perspective. And as you might expect, His Word is far from silent on the subject.
In order to assure a well rounded view on the issue, we will enlist one minor teacher (Jude) and three of the major teachers of the New Testament: Jesus, Peter and Paul. To simplify we will make a ready reference that will start by listing the teacher by name, followed by what they taught on this subject and a brief commentary on the verses. This is not intended to be an exhaustive work on the topic, but rather a point of reference for the Arminian... and food for thought for the Calvinist.
Jesus
Jesus had quite a bit to say about our salvation, since He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Sometimes He spoke in parables and at other times He spoke very plainly about the issue. Here are a few examples:
Matthew 10:22 (Endure until the end)
Matthew 24:12 & 13 (Endure until the end)
Mark 4:3-20 (Parable of the Sower)
Mark 13:13 (Endure until the end)
John 15:2 & 6 (You must remain in me)
Revelation 2:5 (Remove lampstand)
Revelation 2:10 (Be faithful unto death)
Revelation 3:1-5 (Erase name from the Book of Life)
In each of these scriptures we see Jesus portray our salvation as being conditional. Now keep in mind, we are not talking about the LOVE of God, which is unconditional. For we see in John 3:16 that, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish" and in II Peter 3:9 that "He is not wanting anyone to perish". But we also know for a fact that there will be those that perish. It is not God's will that they perish, but never the less it is going to happen to some people. I think we all agree that to receive your salvation, certain conditions must be met, namely, accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. This is probably not even an issue for most of you reading this study. But the question at hand is, can you lose your salvation AFTER you receive it, and I think that Jesus clearly gives us the answer in each of these scriptures.
The parable of the sower shows us a certain group of people that, for various reasons, hear the gospel and accept it as Truth but "fall away" (Mark 4:17 NIV). In this parable Jesus explains to the disciples that the seeds are people that have all heard and received the gospel and sprang to life... but only a portion of them endured to bear fruit.
Some will say that you never base doctrine on a parable, which is true... if you don't have any other scripture on which to base your conclusions. In other words, you never establish your core beliefs on a parable, if that is the only time that that particular belief is espoused. But in this instance, that is not the case. We see Jesus on three other occasions (see list) say that in order to receive eternal life you "Must endure to the end"! He doesn't say that it would be a "good idea" to endure to the end... He says you MUST endure, if you want to receive eternal life.
If this is not enough to prove to you that Jesus taught that your salvation was conditional, that condition being a state of FAITH (Ephesians 2:8&9), we read further in the Book of the Revelation where Jesus makes two very powerful and even threatening statements. In Rev. 2:5, Jesus tell the church at Ephesus that if they don't repent, He will "remove their lampstand", which we know from Rev. 1:20 is the congregation itself! But some will argue that the lampstand is too symbolic. "Maybe it means something else", they assert. But certainly you wouldn't say that about the Lamb's Book of Life, would you? Rev. 3:5 says very plainly that if you "hold fast" and "overcometh" (KJV), then your name will not be blotted out of the Book of Life" So the inverse must be true that if you don't hold fast or overcome, your name will be blotted out.
In John 15:2, Jesus talking about the Father said, "He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he trims clean so that it will be even more fruitful." (NIV)
The point is that the Father wants fruit. But what happens to people who do not remain in Christ, namely the branches that get cut off because they bear no fruit?
Verse 6 gives the answer, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV)
How much more clear can He be?
Jude
Jude is one of the shortest books in the Bible, so short in fact, it doesn't even have chapters. It is only 25 verses long but it's a powerful admonition to the church. The whole premise of the book is a warning against false teachers. But why? Very simply put, false teacher can lead the people astray to the point of losing out with God! Jude says in verse 5 that God destroyed some of His own elect people because of their unbelief. Jude goes on to say in verse 6 that some of God's own angels met the same fate.
But some will say that verse 24 says that God is able to keep you from falling, which is quite true. God gives to every man a measure of faith, but it is up to each individual as to what he will do with the faith that God gives him. As in the parable of the sower, some will let the cares and concerns of this world to come along and choke that faith right out of their life.
Peter
Peter doesn't say a whole lot about this issue, but what he does say is very succinct and very powerful. These are the three main verses:
II Peter 1:10 (IF you are diligent you will not fall)
II Peter 2:20-22 (Know Christ then overcome by sin; worse than before)
II Peter 3:17 (Fall from your steadfastness)
Peter give two scenarios in which a person can fall (II Peter 1:10 and 3:17). But neither of these examples can hold a candle to what he says in II Peter 2:20-22. Anyone who seeks to deny Peter's words of warning in this passage is clearly asking for trouble. He doesn't mince any words.
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." (KJV)
READ IT FOR YOURSELF. Take off the blinders and just read it at face value. He very simply and authoritatively states that if a person has "escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (i.e. a believer), but becomes "entangled in it again... he is worse off than he was before he knew Christ as his Lord and Savior"! Now you can read into this whatever you want, but for the unbiased, the meaning is crystal clear. YOUR SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL! If you were condemned outside of Christ ("before you were saved") how can it get any worse? Because then you were ignorant, now (after you were saved) you know the Truth, but choose to reject it.
Paul
The Apostle Paul is by far the most prolific writer of the New Testament, so it is therefore no surprise to find that he addressed this issue quite thoroughly. The following verses are but a sample of many:
Romans 11:20-23 (Branches grafted then broken off)
I Corinthians 10:11 & 12 (Take heed lest you fall)
I Corinthians 15:1-2 (Believed in vain)
Galatians 5:4 (You have fallen from Grace)
Galatians 6:9 (Reap IF not faint)
Colossians 1:23 (IF you continue in the faith)
I Thessalonians 3:8 (IF you stand fast in the Lord)
I Timothy 2:15 (IF they continue in faith)
I Timothy 3:6 & 7 (Recent convert + conceit = condemnation of the Devil)
I Timothy 4:1 (Some will depart from the faith)
Hebrews 3:6 ( IF we hold fast to the end)
Hebrews 3:14 (Partakers of Christ, IF we hold steadfast)
Hebrews 6:4-6 (If they fall away...)
Hebrews 10:38 & 39 (Believe = Saved; Drawback = Perdition)
As you can see from these 14 examples, the Apostle Paul did not want anyone left in the dark on this subject. Through these verses Paul hands us a candle, or maybe we should say a flood light, to help us see our way to the TRUTH! Most of the verses are so self-explanatory that it would belabor the point, so we will stick with examining just a few.
Firstly, let us take a brief look at the tiny little word "if." The word "if" is the epitome of conditionality. In every conditional phrase you will find the little two letter word "if." IF you do this, I will do that. IF you work 40 hours per week, you will get a paycheck. IF you speed, you will get a ticket—etc. So we see half of these verses using this conditional word in association with our salvation. "IF we continue in the faith"; "IF we stand fast"; "IF we faint not"... and the list goes on. Colossians 1: 21-23 is a good example. Paul clearly says, "Although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister."
But even more directly, the Apostle Paul said in Romans 11:20-23 that the Jews were broken off because of a lack of faith and that we as "wild olive trees" had better take heed that we likewise be not "cut off!"
Paul gives another warning to the believers in I Corinthians 10:11 & 12 to "take heed lest you fall" like the Jews that were destroyed for their lack of faith. He also says in I Corinthians 15:2 that if we keep in our rememberence the gospel that Paul preached, then we will be saved... but if we don't, then we will have "believed in vain" because we fell back from the truth of the gospel. He writes to the Galatians in chapter 5, verse 4, that if you seek to be justified by works or deeds then you have fallen from grace. And if we are saved by grace through faith, we cannot take either of those gifts out of the equation: GRACE + FAITH = SALVATION. The Apostle Paul wrote in his letter to the young evangelist Timothy, his son in the faith, and one of his closest friends, in I Timothy 3:6 & 7 that one of the qualifications of the Bishop or Overseer is "that he not be a recent convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation of the Devil". A convert is a believer, and the Apostle Paul just stated very clearly that a believer can fall into the condemnation of Satan. How could he possible state it any clearer than that? Later he also warns Timothy in chapter 4:1 that some will depart from the faith. You cannot depart from something that you never had.
Now we are not quite sure who wrote the Book of Hebrews, but many scholars believe that it was either the Evangelist Apollos or the Apostle Paul. Whoever the inspired writer was, all we know for sure is that he settled the issue once and for all in Hebrews 6:4-6. He says in no uncertain terms that a believer (one who has become enlightened and partaken of the Holy Spirit) can "fall away"! The writer later warns the believers in verses 38 and 39 that if we "shrink back from the faith" we will be destroyed, but if we continue in the faith we will be saved.
Conclusion
Now I realize that if you have been told all your life that eternal security is taught in the Bible, then these scriptures might come as a bit of a surprise to you. I would simply encourage you to pray for Wisdom and Guidance from the Lord as to how to interpret these verses, and I am sure that the Lord of ALL TRUTH will bring you to an understanding of this dangerous and divisive teaching. For you see, if the Calvinist is right, the Arminian will have lost nothing... but if the Arminian is right, the Calvinist may have caused the loss of many souls!
Our main ministry is to the Mormons: www.latter-day-saints.org They are accomplished scripture-twisters, but the Calvinists give them a run for their money on the issue of unconditional Eternal Security. We get e-mails (from Calvinists) everyday accusing us of teaching a works salvation. They say, "You teach salvation by Grace but then say we have to keep ourselves saved by our works." We have never said any such thing. The Holiness movement may teach that, but we do not. We believe that it is difficult to lose your salvation, but not impossible. It comes down to the issue of faith. If you believe, then you are saved, if you no longer believe, then you are no longer saved. The Cavinist acts like no one in the history of the world ever truly believed, then lost that belief. That's a classic ostrich approach to the issue. Open your eyes, my friend, people lose faith all the time. Read the parable of The Sower. It's sad, but true. We still try to reach them while the Calvinist tends to turn his back and say, "They were never saved in the first place." Then what do you say to them if they repent?
Remember, it was Jesus, in John 15:6, who said, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV)
PS
The wolf will lay down with the lamb (Isaiah 11:6)!
The wisemen did not find Jesus at the manger, they found Him much later at His home; no one knows how many wisemen came to worship Him!
Noah took two each of the unclean species and seven each of the clean species on the ark!
The Catholic doctrine of the "Immaculate Conception" is about the birth of Mary, not the birth of Jesus.
"God helps those who help themselves" is a man made slogan.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
Hebrews 6:4
This passage (Hebrews 6:4-6) has been very controversial, the argument having to do with whether or not it teaches that a true Christian can lose his salvation. One very clear teaching that emerges, however, is that a person can only be saved once. If a true Christian actually could fall away and be lost again, he would be eternally lost; it would be impossible to bring him again to repentance.
From the Defender's Study Bible
The questions is, is the person really saved or are they a counterfeit Christian?
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
You write great posts!!!
But, I thought it was only fair to warn you that you might be getting into more than you bargained for if you talk about OSAS.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
practicalbibleteaching
Advanced Member
Member # 7755
|
posted
Sorry, I didn't take the time to look at the older posts. It's not my intention to stir up anything. Thanks!
--------------------
The Church of Jesus Christ is perfect for those who are not!
Posts: 53 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Hi practicalbibleteaching
First let me say that this topic of Eternal Security, or Once Saved Always Saved, has been debated a great deal here at the CBBS. Here's a link to just one of the debates that lasted for 9 pages! The main problem is that some people think eternal security means a license to sin, which is not what it actually teaches at all. It teaches, in my opinion, that we obey out of love rather than out of fear.
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005613
About Hebrews 6, what is the writer trying to say to us? It is probable that he is describing a hypothetical case to prove his point that a true believer cannot lose his salvation. His statement in Hebrews 6:9 seems to support this interpretation: “Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case” (NIV). His argument runs like this:
“Let’s suppose that you do not go on to maturity. Does this mean that you will go back to condemnation, that you will lose your salvation? Impossible! If you could lose your salvation, it would be impossible to get it back again; and this would disgrace Jesus Christ. He would have to be crucified again for you, and this could never happen.”
In Hebrews 6:4, the writer changed the pronouns from “we” and “us” to “those.” This change also suggests that he had a hypothetical case in mind.
However, there is another possible interpretation that does not require a hypothetical case. You should note that the words “crucify” and “put” in Hebrews 6:6 are, in the Greek, present participles: “while they are crucifying … and while they are putting Him to an open shame.” The writer did not say that these people could never be brought to repentance. He said that they could not be brought to repentance while they were treating Jesus Christ in such a shameful way. Once they stop disgracing Jesus Christ in this way, they can be brought to repentance and renew their fellowship with God.
(Wiersbe)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
PBT,
Thank you for sharing this with us. The study offers alot of truths and it is said in a way that even this old lady can understand.
God bless you.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
practicalbibleteaching
Advanced Member
Member # 7755
|
posted
Dr. J Vernon McGee had the following to say concerning the passage
This chapter, by all odds, contains the most difficult passage in the Bible for an interpreter to handle, regardless of his theological position. Dr. R. W. Dale, one of the great minds in the earlier field of conservative scholarship, wrote:
I know how this passage has made the heart of many a good man tremble. It rises up in the New Testament with a gloomy grandeur, stern, portentous, awful, sublime as Mount Sinai when the Lord descended upon it in fire, and threatening storm clouds were around Him, and thunderings and lightnings and unearthly voices told that He was there.
Every reverent person has come to this section with awe and wonder. And every sincere expositor has come to this passage with a sense of inadequacy, and certainly that is the way I approach it.
DANGER SIGNAL: PERIL OF DEPARTING
In the previous chapter the danger signal was the peril of dull hearing. Now as the Hebrew Christians can already see persecution coming, there is a danger of their turning from their confession of Christ and going back to Judaism. He mentions the baby things of Judaism which had to do with ritual. He encourages them to grow up, to go on to maturity.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God [Heb. 6:1].
“Leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ” is literally “leaving the word of the beginning concerning Christ.” For a builder it means to leave the foundation and go up with the scaffolding, or for a child in school to go on from his ABCs to work on his B.A. or Ph.D. It is preparing believers for a trip up to the throne of God.
“Let us go on” is horizontal, not perpendicular.“Unto perfection” is maturity, full age.
There are six foundational facts in the Old Testament which prefigure Christ in ritual, symbol, and ceremony: (1) repentance from dead works; (2) faith toward God; (3) doctrine of baptisms; (4) laying on of hands; (5) resurrection of the dead; and (6) eternal judgment.
“Repentance from dead works.” The works were the works of the Mosaic Law. They were continually trying to keep the Law, then breaking it, then repenting. That is baby stuff, the writer tells them.
“And of faith toward God.” The Old Testament taught faith toward God; so just to say you believe in God doesn’t mean you have come very far. The Old Testament ritual presented a faith in God by approaching Him through the temple sacrifices, not through Christ as High Priest.
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment [Heb. 6:2].
“Doctrine of baptisms [washings]” has nothing to do with New Testament baptism. They refer to the washings of the Old Testament ritual, and there were many of them. The Hebrew believers were wanting to return to these things which were only shadows; they were the negatives from which the spiritual pictures were developed. They prefigured Christ, the reality.
“Laying on of hands.” This was also an Old Testament ritual. When a man brought an animal offering, he laid his hands on its head to signify his identification with it. The animal was taking his place on the altar of sacrifice.
“Resurrection of the dead” was taught in the Old Testament, but now they needed to come up to the resurrection of Christ and to the living Christ.
“Eternal judgment” was taught in the Old Testament.
And this will we do, if God permit [Heb. 6:3].
This brings us to that passage which has caused as many difficulties as any in the Scriptures. Some consider it the most difficult passage to interpret. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak [Heb. 6:4–9].
Verse 9 is the key to the passage, but we need the context to understand what is being said.
As we study this section, we are immediately confronted with the amazing fact that generally commentators have avoided this chapter. Even such a man as Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, the prince of expositors, has completely bypassed it in his book on Hebrews. However, when we do come upon the interpretations available and summarize each, we can well understand why men have chosen to remain clear of this scene of confusion because we can get many interpretations. In the interest of an honest search after the evident meaning of these verses, let us examine some of the interpretations.
The most unsatisfactory to me of all interpretations is that the Christians mentioned here are Christians who have lost their salvation. That is, they were once saved but have lost their salvation. There are many folk who hold this position, and for the most part they are real born again Christians themselves. However, this belief makes them as uncomfortable as I am when I am making a trip by plane. I know that I am just as safe on that plane as anyone there, but I do not enjoy it as some of them do. There are many folk today who are not sure about their salvation and therefore are not enjoying it. Nevertheless they are saved if they have fixed their trust in Christ as their Savior. The essential thing is not the amount of faith they have but the One to whom it is directed. They turn to this passage of Scripture more than any other since they deny that we have a sure salvation which cannot be lost and that the believer is safe in Christ.
I want to make it abundantly clear that I believe we have a sure salvation because Scripture is very emphatic on this point. Paul says in Romans 8:1: “There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus …” and, my friend, he expands that great truth to the triumphant climax of such a bold statement as, “Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth” (Rom. 8:33). The throne of God is back of the weakest, humblest man who has come to trust Christ, and today there is not a created intelligence in God’s universe that can bring a charge against one of these who is justified through faith in His blood. Paul continues in Romans 8:34–39: “Who is he that condemneth? [1] It is Christ that died, [2] yea rather, that is risen again, [3] who is even at the right hand of God, [4] who also maketh intercession for us.” My friend, if you drink in those words you will have a great foundation of assurance. “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.” Does that satisfy you? Well, let’s keep going. Paul is not through yet. “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Can you mention anything that Paul didn’t mention in this passage? Can you find anything that could separate you from the love of Christ? May I say to you, this list takes in the whole kit and caboodle. Here we have a guarantee that nothing can separate us from the love of God—nothing that is seen, nothing that is unseen, nothing that is natural, nothing that is supernatural can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Lord Jesus Christ also makes some tremendous statements about our absolute security. Listen to Him, trust in Him, and believe Him. The Word of God is living and powerful, my friend. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” (John 10:27–28). What kind of life? Eternal life. If you can lose it, it is not eternal! “And they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28–29). It is not a question of your ability to hold on to Him; it is His ability to hold on to you. He says here with the infinite wisdom and full authority of the Godhead that He can hold us and that they who trust Him shall never perish. The question is: Is your hope fixed in God who is all–powerful, or in a god who may suffer defeat?
I have cited only some of the passages of Scripture that make it abundantly clear that you and I cannot be lost after we have been born again into the family of God. We become children of God through faith in Christ. Once a person has become a child of God through faith in Christ he has eternal life. I cannot accept the interpretation that the people in Hebrews 6:4–9 were once saved and had lost their salvation.
There is a second interpretation that has some merit in it. There are those who contend that this is a hypothetical case. “If they shall fall away.” There is only a possibility that this might happen. The writer does not say that it happens, only that it might be possible. Those who contend that this is the correct interpretation say that it is the biggest “IF” in the Bible, and I would agree with them. If I did not take another position on the intrepretation of this passage in Hebrews, I would accept this one.
The third interpretation points out that in verse 6 there really is no “if” in the Greek. It is a participle and should be translated “having fallen away.” Therefore these folk have another interpretation, which is that the passage speaks of mere professors, that they are not genuine believers. They only profess to be Christians. Well, I cannot accept this view, although such scholars as Matthew Henry, F. W. Grant, and J. N. Darby hold this thinking, as does C. I. Scofield in his excellent reference Bible—a Bible which I feel every Christian should own, although in some cases I do not concur with the interpretations given in the notes, as in the instance before us.
I do not accept the view that these folk are professors rather than genuine believers. The Bible does speak of those who merely profess Christ. There are apostates in the church. For instance Peter in his second epistle wrote: “It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Pet. 2:22, asv). Those folk were professors, not genuine believers. But in chapter 6 we find genuine believers, because they are identified as such in many ways. If you will move back into chapter 4 to get the entire passage, you will notice that it is said of these people that they are dull of hearing (see Heb. 5:11)—it does not say that they are dead in trespasses and sins (see Eph. 2:1). And in Hebrews 5:12 it says that “when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you … and are become such as have need of milk….” They need to have milk because they are babes. An unsaved person doesn’t need milk; he needs life. He needs to be born again. He is dead in trespasses and sins. After he is born again, a little milk will help him. Therefore I believe the writer to the Hebrews is addressing baby Christians, and he is urging them to go on to maturity.
There are other expositors who take the position that since the ones spoken of here are Jewish believers of the first century, the warning can apply only to them. At the time Hebrews was written, the temple was still standing, and the writer is warning Jewish Christians about returning to the sacrificial system, because in so doing, they would be admitting that Jesus did not die for their sins. Therefore, those who hold this reasoning say that verses 4–6 apply only to the Jewish Christians of that day and have no reference to anyone in our day.
There is still another group which stresses the word impossible in Hebrews 6:4. It is impossible to renew them—the thought being that it is impossible for man, but it is not impossible with God. They remind us that the Lord Jesus said that “… It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (Matt. 19:24). Of course it is impossible for any of us to enter heaven on our own; we must have a Savior, a Redeemer. Therefore, this again is an interpretation that I cannot accept.
You can see that there are many interpretations of this passage—and, of course, there are others which I have not mentioned.
Now there is one interpretation that has been a real blessing to my heart, and I trust you will follow me patiently, thoughtfully, and without bias as we look at it. Because I was dissatisfied with all the interpretations I had heard, I actually felt sad about it. Then several years ago I picked up a copy of Bibliotheca Sacra, a publication of the Dallas Theological Seminary, and read an article on the sixth chapter of Hebrews written by Dr. J. B. Rowell, who was then pastor of the Central Baptist Church in Victoria, British Columbia. His interpretation was the best that I had heard. I give him full credit for it. This is not something that I thought of, although I have developed it to fit my own understanding, of course.
First of all, let me call to your attention that the writer is not discussing the question of salvation at all in this passage. I believe he is describing saved people—they have been enlightened, they have tasted of the heavenly gift, they have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and they have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come.
The whole tenor of the text reveals that he is speaking of rewards which are the result of salvation. In verse 6 he says, “If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance”—not to salvation, but to repentance. Repentance is something that God has asked believers to do. For example, read the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia, as recorded in Revelation 2 and 3. He says to every one of the churches to repent. That is His message for believers.
So the writer of Hebrews is talking about the fruit of salvation, not about the root of salvation. Notice verse 9 again: “But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation [he hasn’t been discussing salvation but the things that accompany salvation], though we thus speak.” He is speaking of the fruit of the Christian’s life and the reward that comes to him as the result. The whole tenor of this passage is that he is warning them of the possibility of losing their reward. There is danger, Paul said, of our entire works being burned up so that we will have nothing for which we could be rewarded. “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire” (1 Cor. 3:11–15). The work of every believer, my friend, is going to be tested by fire, and fire burns! The work you are doing today for Christ is going to be tested by fire. For example, when all of those reports that some of us preachers have handed in about how many converts we have made are tried by fire, they will make a roaring fire—if our work has been done in the flesh rather than in the power of the Spirit. We will have nothing but wood, hay, and stubble that will all go up in smoke.
Someday every believer is going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ. I wish I could lay upon the heart of believers that it is not going to be a sweet little experience where the Lord Jesus is going to pat us on the back and say, “You nice little Sunday school boy, you didn’t miss a Sunday for ten years. You are so wonderful.” The Lord is going to go deeper than that. He is going to test you and see if you really had any fruit in your life. Have you grown in grace and knowledge of Him? Have you been a witness for Him? Has your life counted for Him? Have you been a blessing to others? My Christian friend, I am not sure that I am looking forward to the judgment seat of Christ, because He is going to take Vernon McGee apart there. I will not be judged for salvation, but because I am saved, He is going to find out whether or not I am to receive a reward.
Now notice that he is illustrating the fruit of the Christian’s life: “For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: but that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned” (vv. 7–8). If the believer’s life brings forth fruit, it receives blessing from God; if it brings forth thorns and briers, it is rejected.
When the apostle Paul wrote to Titus, a young preacher, he dealt with the matter of works: “Not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us …” (Titus 3:5, asv). From this, one might be inclined to think that Paul is not going to have much regard for good works, but move down in that same chapter to verse 8: “… I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works….” Good works do not enter into the matter of salvation, but when one becomes a child of God through faith in Christ, works assume supreme importance. My friend, if you are a Christian, it is important that you live the Christian life.
When I was a university student the psychologists were discussing a matter which they have moved away from now. It was: Which is more important, heredity or environment? Well, my psychology professor had a stimulating answer. He said that before you are born, heredity is more important, but after you are born, environment is the major consideration! Now let’s carry that line of thought over to our present study. Before you are born again, works do not enter in, because you cannot bring them to God—He won’t accept them. Scripture says that the righteosuness of man is filthy rags in His sight (see Isa. 64:6). You don’t expect God to accept a pile of dirty laundry, do you? He is accepting sinners, but He accepts us on the basis of the redemption that we have in Christ. When we receive Christ as Savior, we are born anew and become a child of God. When that happens, we are, as Peter put it, “… an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light” (1 Pet. 2:9, asv). Now after you have been saved, you are to show forth by your good works before the world that you are redeemed to God. Therefore the Christian has something to show forth, and that is the thing which is to be judged. If he is going to continue as a baby and be nothing but a troublemaker, turning people from Christ instead of to Christ, there will certainly be no reward. In fact, there will be shame at His appearing.
“For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (vv. 4–6, asv). These verses bring us to the very center of this study.
“And then fell away”—fell away is an interesting word in the Greek. It is parapito and means simply “to stumble, to fall down.” It would be impossible to give it the meaning of “apostatize.” It is the same word used of our Lord when He went into the Garden of Gethsemane, fell on His face, and prayed.
There are many examples in Scripture of men who “fell away.” The apostle Peter fell, but he was not lost. The Lord Jesus said to him, “I have prayed that your faith might not fail” (see Luke 22:32). Peter suffered loss, but he was not lost. John Mark is another example. He failed so miserably on the first missionary journey that when his uncle Barnabas suggested that he go on the second journey, Paul turned him down. He as much as said, “Never. This boy has failed, and as far as I am concerned, I am through with him” (see Acts 15:37–39). Well, thank God, although he stumbled and fell, God was not through with him. Even the apostle Paul, before he died, acknowledged that he had made a misjudgment of John Mark. In his last epistle he wrote, “… Take Mark and bring him with thee; for he is useful to me for ministering” (2 Tim. 4:11). Now, neither Peter nor John Mark lost his salvation, but they certainly failed and they suffered loss for it.
Read again verse 1 and notice that the writer is talking to folk about repentance from dead works—not salvation, but repentance. You will recall that John the Baptist also preached this to the people: “Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance …” (Luke 3:8). He was referring to that which is the evidence of repentance. Repentance in our day does not mean the shedding of a few tears; it means turning right–about–face toward Jesus Christ, which means a change of direction in your life, in your way of living.
Many of the Jewish believers were returning to the temple sacrifice at that time, and the writer to the Hebrews was warning them of the danger of that. Before Christ came, every sacrifice was a picture of Him and pointed to His coming, but after Christ came and died on the Cross, that which God had commanded in the Old Testament actually became sin.
You see, those folk were at a strategic point in history. The day before the crucifixion of Jesus they had gone to the temple with sacrifices in obedience to God’s command, but now it was wrong for them to do it. Why? Because Jesus had become that sacrifice—once and for all. Today if you were to offer a bloody sacrifice, you would be sacrificing afresh the Lord Jesus because you would be implying that when He died nineteen hundred years ago it was of no avail—that you still need a sacrifice to take care of your sin. It would mean that you would not have faith in His atonement, in His death, in His redemption. As someone has said, we either crucify or crown the Lord Jesus by our lives. Today we exhibit either a life of faith or a life by which we crucify Him afresh—especially when we feel that we have to get back under the Mosaic system and keep the Law in order to be saved. It is a serious matter to go back to a legal system.
Notice again verse 6 as the Authorized Version translates it: “… if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance.” Actually the if is not in the text at all. It is “having fallen away,” or “then fell away”—a genitive absolute. It is all right to use the “if,” providing you use it as an argument rather than in the sense of a condition.
Why would it be impossible to renew them again unto repentance? Remember we are talking about the fruit of salvation. It is a serious thing to have accepted Christ as Savior and then to live in sin, to nullify what you do by being a spiritual baby, never growing up, doing nothing in the world but building a big pile of wood, hay, and stubble. Paul said the same thing in different language in 1 Corinthians 3:11 which says, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” Your salvation is a foundation. You rest upon it, but you also build upon it. You can build with six different kinds of materials—wood, hay, stubble, gold, silver, and precious stones. What kind of building materials are you using today? Are you building up a lot of wood, hay, and stubble? There is a lot of church work today that is nothing but that. We are great on organizations and committees, but do our lives really count for God? Are there going to be people in heaven who will be able to point to you and say, “I am here because of your life and testimony,” or, “I am here because you gave me the Word of God.” Oh, let’s guard against building with wood, hay, or stubble!
By the way, there is a difference between a straw stack and a diamond ring. And you can lose a diamond ring in a haystack because the ring is so small. I am afraid that a great many folk are building a straw stack to make an impression. One pastor told me, “I’m killing myself. I have to turn in a better report this year than the report last year. We have to increase church membership and converts and giving to missions.” Oh, if this pastor would only dig into the Scriptures and spend much time in God’s presence. Then he would be teaching his people the Word and many would be turning to Christ and would be growing in their relationship with Him. Every man’s works are going to be tested by fire. What will fire do to wood, hay, and stubble? Poof! It will go up in smoke. There will be nothing left. That is what the writer is saying.
In John 15 the Lord Jesus talks about the fact that He is the vine, the genuine vine, and we are the branches. We are to bear fruit. “If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit …” (John 15:7–8). He wants us to bear much fruit. When there is a branch that won’t bear fruit, what does He do? “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:6). He will take it away; He will remove it from the place of fruitbearing and that is what the Lord Jesus is saying.
I see God doing this very thing today. And as I look back over the years, I have seen many men work with wood, hay, or stubble. And I have seen others work with gold. I know a layman who was a very prominent Christian when I came to the Los Angeles area almost forty years ago. Then he became involved in a dishonest transaction. He has lost his testimony, and yet he was a very gifted and likeable man. I still consider him my friend, but I wouldn’t want to go into the presence of Christ as this man will have to go when his life is over.
Also I recall a minister who was very attractive—a little too attractive. He was unfaithful to his wife, had an affair with another woman, and finally divorced his wife. And all the while he tried to keep on teaching! But his teaching didn’t amount to anything—he was just putting up a whole lot of straw. He was not even baling hay; he was just making a big old haystack. Finally the match was put to it, I guess, because he certainly didn’t leave anything down here.
Oh, how careful we should be about our Christian lives. And we cannot live the Christian life in our own strength. We need to recognize that Christ is the Vine. If we have any life, it has come from Him, and if there is any fruit in our lives, it comes from Him. We are sort of connecting rods, as branches connect into the vine and then bear fruit. Christ said that, “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me” (John 15:4).
“If they shall fall away” or “having fallen away,” it is impossible to renew them to repentance. They can shed tears all they want to, but they have lost their testimony. For example, a preacher came and talked to me about his situation. He moved away from this area and attempted to establish a ministry. But he failed. He had had an affair with a woman, and he had lost his testimony. He was through. “It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.” I don’t question his salvation; he is a gifted man who could be mightily used by God but is not. “Seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” My friend, any time you as a born again child of God live like one of the Devil’s children, you are crucifying the Son of God—because He came to give you a perfect redemption and to enable you by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to be filled with the Spirit and live for Him.
“For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God” (v. 7, asv). The garden produce is a blessing to man—my, it is delicious! “But if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned” (v. 8, asv). “Rejected” is adokimos, the same word Paul used when writing to the Corinthian believers, “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27). “Castaway” is the same word adokimos, meaning “not approved.” In effect, Paul is saying, “When I come into His presence I don’t want to be disapproved. I don’t want the Lord Jesus to say to me, ‘You have failed. Your life should have been a testimony but it was not.’” Oh, my friend, you are going to hear that if you are not living for Him! I know we don’t want to hear these things, but we need to face the facts.
Now notice the key to this chapter: “But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak” (v. 9). The writer to the Hebrew believers is saying, “I am persuaded that you are going to live for God, that you are not going to remain babes in Christ but will grow up.”
--------------------
The Church of Jesus Christ is perfect for those who are not!
Posts: 53 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
practicalbibleteaching
Advanced Member
Member # 7755
|
posted
It is my opinion there are some members here who have a great deal of Bible knowledge. I am interested to see your answers to this question.
A man is truly born again or genuinely saved. If he then can be unborn or loose the salvation God once gave him, what is the correct interpretation of the following passage?
Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
--------------------
The Church of Jesus Christ is perfect for those who are not!
Posts: 53 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jun 2009
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
