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Topic: The Tribulation's Purpose Vs. The Church's Nature
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KnowHim
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Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Billy, I agree. I once heard a missionary from Africa here where I live, and he wanted the churches here to stop sending christian books ect... as it was causing division among the churches there in Africa.
He said "Please, send only Bibles" He also referred to the "prosperity gospel" (as in monetary gain) and said that was also affecting them. He said that when people over there did not get there increase(Money) as was preached to them, a lot of them turned to the Islamic faith.
Yes I also believe this to be true. The feel good me first sin all you want easy push button gospel is really sending millions to hell now as people die daily and this is what they were taught. It is sad indeed.
http://www.jesusclips.com/view_video.php?viewkey=6b02f93d894415e6bfa0
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
Billy, I agree. I once heard a missionary from Africa here where I live, and he wanted the churches here to stop sending christian books ect... as it was causing division among the churches there in Africa.
He said "Please, send only Bibles" He also referred to the "prosperity gospel" (as in monetary gain) and said that was also affecting them. He said that when people over there did not get there increase(Money) as was preached to them, a lot of them turned to the Islamic faith.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Billy
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Member # 7193
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posted
quote:
Betty Louise said -
I am of the mind that there will be less Americans saved during the tribulation then any other Country, because of the wealth of information we have at our disposal to know Christ now.
There is also much deception among 'christian' literature, today, as well as many authors that, while not deliberately setting out to deceive, never touch on the one true gospel in any of their writings. We live in a 'feel good' 'me first' culture. In support of the culture, we are starting to see the rise of a 'feel good' 'me first' christianity. We should definitely be praying that America makes it though this trial, and that the church would return to its core; the one true gospel.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
WildB,
God bless you, brother.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
There are people who know that Jesus is Lord, but do not want to become a Christian because it would require them to change their lifestyles. When I was a teenager I knew other teenagers who said to me that they would get saved after they had some fun in their lives. I have family members who know about salvation, but they do not want Jesus to tell them what to do. To them God is someone you pray to when you have problems but they do not want to have a personal relationship. They want God to answer prayers, but they do not want God to be Lord of their lives. These are those who scare me. I am afraid after the rapture that God may allow their hearts to hardened and they accept the anti-Christ. I pray I am wrong.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
So my question is this. What truth?
How can one KNOW Jesus is the truth and then reject Him?
Wouldnt it be more like those people Hear the truth preached to them and reject Him anyway?
I dont think the Rapture would change anyones mind here on earth about Jesus because of this:
Luke 16:31
"But he aid to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead'"
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
There will be people other then the Jews who will be saved during the tribulation. The question is whether those who know the truth but miss the rapture because they have rejected the truth, will have another chance after the rapture to be saved. There is no clear answer to this question, but we do know that there are times in the Bible that God hardened the hearts of those who rejected the truth once too often. I am of the mind that there will be less Americans saved during the tribulation then any other Country, because of the wealth of information we have at our disposal to know Christ now. There are many around the world that have not had the opportunities that Americans have had to access the Gospel. Either way, we should pray for the lost, especially our loved ones and friends.
Amen
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Betty Louise
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Member # 7175
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posted
There will be people other then the Jews who will be saved during the tribulation. The question is whether those who know the truth but miss the rapture because they have rejected the truth, will have another chance after the rapture to be saved. There is no clear answer to this question, but we do know that there are times in the Bible that God hardened the hearts of those who rejected the truth once too often. I am of the mind that there will be less Americans saved during the tribulation then any other Country, because of the wealth of information we have at our disposal to know Christ now. There are many around the world that have not had the opportunities that Americans have had to access the Gospel. Either way, we should pray for the lost, especially our loved ones and friends.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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yahsway
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Member # 3738
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posted
Hmm, I wonder, Who are those that come out of the Great tribulation mentioned in Rev 7:9-14
They are not Just the Jews are they?
It does say that their number is so great that no one could number them.
It says they come from all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues.Not just the Jews.
I dont think all nations will be utterly destroyed because of Is 65 18-24, that is not until the 1000 year reign of Christ from Jerusalem is over (Rev20) and then the New Heaven and earth and God Himself comes down to be with men.
I am a mid-trib proponent, but a lot of what you say makes sense.
But i often ask the question, Who does the Anti/christ, false prophet persecute in those days? Its not Just the Jews is it? Tribulation in those days will be against those who do not take the mark and who follow God.
The Wrath of God is against those who are persecuting the saints is it not?
The Jewish population only make up 1% in the world, and John saw myrids coming out of the Great Trib. And they are from every tongue tribe and nations.
We call those days the Tribulation/Great Tribulation.
But who are the ones being tribulated or persecuted in those days?
Now I know about the Wrath of God against those who dont turn to Him.
But we know that many will come out of the GT having their garments washed white with the blood of the lamb and loving their lives not, even unto death.
I guess i am a mid-trib/pre-wrath believer, but its not a salvation issue to me. I learn a lot from others view pont and it helps me dig into the scriptures more.
Shabbat Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
The Tribulation's Purpose Vs. The Church's Nature
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/kelley/jack19.html
Therefore keep watch because you do not know the day or the hour. (Matt. 25:13)
Those who shy away from the study of prophecy are fond of quoting this verse as their reason for it. But earlier in the same passage, the Lord had admonished all who read His words of prophecy to understand them. (Matt 24:15) In addition the Apostle Paul wrote that the events leading up to the end of the age should not take believers by surprise (1 Thes. 5:4) implying that we should be familiar with them.
Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, these passages must have been aimed at different audiences. And sure enough, a closer look reveals that both the implied timing and the intended audience of the two Matthew passages are different. In Matt 25:13 the Lord is only speaking to people remaining on Earth at His Second Coming, while in Matt. 24:15 he included everyone who would ever read the passage. Of course in 1 Thes 5:4 Paul is addressing the church.
What both the Lord (Matt.24:15) and Paul (1 Thes. 5:4) are saying is that while we won't know the exact timing of things, we should understand the sequence of events leading up to the Day of the Lord. And perhaps no event in the sequence is more controversial than the Rapture of the Church, especially as it relates to the Great Tribulation.
It seems to me that the first thing we should do in trying to obey the Lord's commandment to understand all this is to clarify two things:
One, the purpose of the Great Tribulation, and
Two, the nature of the Church
The Purpose of the Great Tribulation
The phrase Great Tribulation makes reference to a specific event, not a general condition. While the Lord warned the disciples that they and we would experience tribulation as a general condition in this world (John 16:33), He clearly identified the Great Tribulation as having a specific beginning and ending. It will begin when the abomination that causes desolation predicted by Daniel is erected in the Temple (in the middle of the last 7 years of history) and will end just prior to the Lord's return, three and one half years later. (Daniel 9:24-27 & Matt. 24:29-30)
Daniel's prophecy is pointedly Jewish in perspective and so is the Great Tribulation. It was referred to as the Time of Jacob's Trouble in the Old Testament, until the Lord coined its new name in Matt 24:21, and the Old Testament is where its purpose is explained.
Let's ask Jeremiah
Specifically, the explanation is found in Jeremiah 30:1-11. Let's read it.
This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD: "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."
These are the words the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah: "This is what the LORD says: " 'Cries of fear are heard—terror, not peace. Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale?
How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.
" 'In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them. Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.
" 'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.
I am with you and will save you,'declares the LORD. 'Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'
In this passage the event is foretold, its purpose explained, and the timing is made clear. Let's take the timing first. According to verse 3 it will take place after Israel is re-gathered in the land, and verse 9 says it will result in David becoming their King again, a Messianic reference.
There have been two re-gatherings since the passage was written, but the first, beginning in 535 BC, didn't result in David becoming their King. In fact, to this day they have had no legitimate king at all since about 600 BC. Neither were all the nations completely destroyed then.
The second re-gathering began in 1948 AD and continues to this day. Though the population of Israel keeps growing, so do the Jewish populations of all the nations to which the Jews have been scattered, and there are still more Jews outside Israel than there are in the land. All that will soon change as the Lord calls all His people to return to their Promised Land following His victory in the Battle foretold by Ezekiel. (Ezek.39:28)
Now for its purpose. "Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished." (Jere. 30:11) The idea is that Israel has to be purified to receive their coming King, and the nations who rejected the King and persecuted His people must be destroyed.
So the purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold; discipline (purify) the people of Israel so they'll be prepared for the coming Messiah, and completely destroy the nations to which they had been scattered and who have rejected Him.
The Nature of the Church
According to Paul's Letter to the Ephesians, the church is nothing less than a new race of mankind, coming from among both Jew and Gentile but sharing a destiny with neither. (Ephe. 2:15-16)
The problem had always been that God never could dwell in the midst of His creation. Our sins always eventually drove Him away. At the cross, He reconciled all things to himself, things in heaven and on earth (Col 1:19-20). This meant that He was now at peace with His creation for the first time since the Fall of Man. He accomplished this by paying the price for all the sin of mankind. Now, for anyone who would accept it, a full pardon for behavior past, present and future was available, free for the asking.
You're a Perfect Example of What I'm Talking About
Accepting this pardon qualifies any person, young or old, Jew or Gentile, good or bad, to become a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). When we do it permits God to look upon us as if we are without sin altogether; and in fact as if we had never sinned to begin with. It also requires the division of mankind into three groups: Jew, Gentile and Church. (1 Cor. 10:32)
It's critical that we understand God's perspective in this because it's way different from ours. To Him, the church is without sin, holy and blameless, and has been since the cross. Whatever sins we as individuals have committed (or will commit) have been forgiven and forgotten. It's as if they never happened (Ephe 1:4-8). At the cross, the church became as pure and holy as God Himself (2 Cor 5:21), having been made perfect forever. (Hebr. 10:14) Finally God has a people with whom He can live in peace. Because the Man from heaven agreed to become outfitted for earth, men from earth can now be outfitted for heaven.
The nature of the Church is to be as though sinless. As Paul said we're like a chaste virgin (2 Cor. 11:2), without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, holy and blameless. (Ephes. 5:27) We've been washed from our sins in the Lord's own blood (Rev. 1:5).
(I have recently noticed a resurgence of the view that not all Christians will inherit eternal life with the Lord, but only those judged worthy by their works. This view holds that while saved, some born again believers will actually share the destiny of unbelievers, being cast into the outer darkness and away from the presence of God forever. Proponents of this view demonstrate a remarkable ignorance of New Testament Theology as summarized in the verses I've cited here.)
What's the Point?
First, not needing purification, no purpose is fulfilled by having the Church endure the Great Tribulation. And even if purification was needed, how could the suffering of one generation of believers serve to purify all the generations of believers who have preceded us?
In Israel's case the generations since the cross are lost, having rejected their Messiah. The last generation's discipline is intended to finally bring them to that realization and to open their eyes and hearts to Jesus so that a remnant of God's people can be preserved. (Zech. 12:10-13)
But all the generations of the Church have died in hope of spending eternity with the Lord as the Bible promised them. Is it only ours who will receive this promise and then only after sharing in Israel's purification? Of course not.
Second, the focus of the Great Tribulation is Jewish and God's focus seems to be either Israel or the church, never both. (This was explained by James in Acts 15:12-18 and by Paul in Romans 11:25-27.)
If you take the view, as I do, that the Battle of Ezekiel 38 occurs before the Great Tribulation, and realize that one outcome of that battle is to turn Israel back to God, (Eze 39:28-29) then you know the church's days on Earth have to end at the same time. This is what makes the fact that Israel exists again an important sign that the end is near.
In Summary
Of course the Scriptures promise that the church won't be present on Earth for the Great Tribulation and we've covered them in detail in other studies on the Rapture.
My intent in this study is not to review them but rather to achieve the following:
1. to demonstrate that the purpose of the Great Tribulation is to discipline Israel and completely destroy the Nations, and
2. to show that the Church has no need for purification or discipline, and therefore our presence here during that period would be in direct opposition to our nature as viewed by God.
Because of this God has promised to remove the Church well before the Great Tribulation begins. In 1 Thes 1:10 and 5:9 Paul said first that the Church will be rescued from God's wrath and then that the church was not appointed to suffer wrath. By Rev 6 His wrath will have arrived.
The Greek preposition translated from in 1 Thes 1:10, means from the time, place or any relation to the event. The Church will be rescued from the time, place, or any relation to God's wrath. This promise had first been made over 750 years earlier in Isaiah 26:20 and it's still good today. Selah 06-12-08
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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