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Topic: Vatican affirms Jewish position on Messiah
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SoftTouch
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posted
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/570211.html
Putin: Abbas can't fight terror with slingshot and stones
Something definitely smells Rotten in Russia… ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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SoftTouch
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It would seem that Israel is Ripe for the coming deception ![[Frown]](frown.gif) I can't believe they're allowing themselves to be lulled to sleep by Putin! He's totally setting them up.
I just read this article this morning (Here's just a snippet):
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1114654779390&apage=1
Chess legend Kasparov to 'Post': Double-check Putin!
quote:
As Russian President Vladimir Putin spent his first full day here on Thursday, legendary chess champion Garry Kasparov had a message for Israel: Don't trust him!
In a telephone interview with The Jerusalem Post from Russia, Kasparov, who has retired from chess and is now a political rival of the president's, complained that Putin's regime is trampling on democratic principles and poses a serious threat to the rest of the world. He also said that Putin's reliance on support from ultranationalist forces could spell trouble for Russia's Jews, and he skewered Putin for strategic shortcomings that, he said, could imperil Israel.
Russian sales of missiles to Syria and nuclear technology to Iran, for example, were misguided steps that should worry not only Israel, Kasparov said. Actually, he continued, they were proof that Putin and his regime "just want a short-term profit" and that they "don't think strategically, they can't think long-term."
The Russian president had undermined democratic reforms installed by his predecessors, Kasparov added, citing strict controls on independent media and suggestions that Putin might force an alteration to the constitution that would allow him to remain in office for a third term.
Kasparov also claimed that Putin was not only doing too little to combat the rising ant-Semitism in Russia, but charged that the former KGB officer's government even encouraged and instigated ultranationalist sentiment, with the security apparatus propping up far-right groups.
"The only way to win support from the West is to make sure that everyone is scared of the threat of ultranationalist forces... so Putin presents himself as the only one who can stop them,"
Perhaps we should call this the "Articles" Thread? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Oh yeah, About last nights Seminar on Prophecy. Dr. Farrell didn't say anything new ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) He basically went over the signs of the Lords SOON coming, and even went a bit indepth on the Veri-Chip as the Mark deal. But basically he sees the same things we do. He did say he believes the AC will set up his headquarters in Rome (the city of the 7 hills). However, he didn't go into any detail on who he sees as possibly fulfilling the FP role (or the AC role either). The seminar was short and he had a lot to squeeze in. He made sure anyone who had not truly given their life to Jesus would understand what type of world they would have to live through if they didn't get serious Now. His major point was to make sure we were Right with the Lord before "Operation Evacuation" I like that term LOL! (aka the Rapture)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Well, check this out:
Putin Makes Historic Visit to Israel
Email this Story
Apr 27, 3:02 PM (ET)
By RAVI NESSMAN
(AP) Russian President Vladimir Putin talks during a media conference with his Egyptian counterpart...
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JERUSALEM (AP) - Greeted by beaming Israeli officials, Vladimir Putin on Wednesday became the first Kremlin leader to visit the Jewish state, capping a historic rapprochement between two nations that once faced each other as bitter enemies across the Cold War divide.
Putin, on his first Middle East trip, was also hoping to restore his country's profile as a major player in the region and the world, bringing with him a fresh proposal for a conference to be held in Moscow in the autumn.
"Considering the history of relations and the fact that there were times that we were on one side and Russia was entirely on the other side ... (the visit) indicates the significant change that took place between the two countries," Israeli Vice Premier Ehud Olmert said as he stood on the airport tarmac waiting to greet Putin.
The Soviet Union supported Israel during the Jewish state's early years, but relations soon deteriorated - and eventually collapsed - as Israel increasingly allied itself with the United States. Moscow cut ties with Israel in 1967 in the context of a Mideast war and strongly backed the Arab states. In many of its wars with its Arab neighbors, Israel found itself facing Soviet-trained pilots flying Soviet MiGs fighter jets.
Moscow also barred Jews from leaving, jailing many who demanded the right to emigrate to Israel.
As the Soviet Union was collapsing in the early 1990s, the two nations restored ties, and Moscow loosened emigration restrictions, prompting more than a million Russian speakers to immigrate here. Natan Sharansky, a Jewish emigration activist who spent nine years in a Soviet jail on an espionage charge, is now Israel's minister for Diaspora affairs. Sharansky and Putin have no plans to meet, according to Israeli and Russian officials.
Relations are continuing to improve under Putin, who took office in 2000, as he tries to push Russia's economic interests abroad and evoke parallels between Israel's conflict with Palestinian militants and Russia's campaign against Chechen rebels.
But there are strains as well, including Russia's determination to push ahead with a missile sale to Syria, one of Israel's bitterest enemies. Other potential sore points include Moscow's nuclear aid to Iran and signs of rising anti-Semitism in Russia.
Putin has sought to use the Middle East conflict to help restore Russia's stature on the international stage, where its presence is dwarfed by the United States. It has joined Europe, the United Nations and the United States in the so-called Quartet of Mideast peacemakers, and Palestinians view Russia as an important counterweight to U.S. support for Israel.
"Russia is a country that can, relatively speaking, neutralize - through its participation in the Quartet - a little bit of the American bias to Israel," Palestinian Cabinet minister Ghassan Khatib said.
The Palestinians and Russia also have a history of political and cultural cooperation dating to the Cold War. About 15,000 Palestinians - including Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas - studied in Russian universities.
Putin plans to meet with Israeli leaders, including Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, on Thursday. On Friday, he goes to the West Bank city of Ramallah to meet with Abbas and lay a wreath at the grave of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
During a meeting in Cairo on Wednesday, Putin proposed a Mideast peace conference in Russia this autumn. The timing of such a gathering, after Israel's planned pullout from the Gaza Strip this summer, appeared to be an effort to restart the peace process and revive the Quartet-sponsored "road map" peace plan that calls for the creation of a Palestinian state.
Palestinians, worried that Israeli peace efforts will end with the pullout, embraced the conference proposal.
"From our side we welcome such a conference and we hope it will happen," Abbas said.
Israel, wary of international involvement in the conflict, said it would not object to a conference but that much work needed to be done first.
"Israel has accepted the road map, and in the second stage of the road map it specifically mentions a conference," Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said. "So we don't have a problem with a conference ... but obviously we have not reached the second stage of the road map yet."
Israel's objections to British Prime Minister Tony Blair's plan for a London peace conference in March transformed that gathering into a workshop on internal Palestinian reforms.
Roman Bronfman, an Israeli lawmaker and political science expert who immigrated from the Soviet Union in 1980, called the new proposed conference "a gimmick or a public relations stunt."
"But this is a desire of Putin's, to determine some of the steps and return to the Middle East, and this is an initiative that we will have to deal with," he told Israel TV.
Putin proposed the conference earlier Wednesday in Cairo, saying it's necessary "to activate the role of international mediators" in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute.
Quartet foreign ministers will meet in Moscow on May 8 to discuss the peace process, Putin said. The level of representation had not been decided, Putin added, noting he still needed to speak with Sharon.
Putin said his visit to Egypt, his first to an Arab country since he became president, was aimed at reviving political and business links with the nation. The last Kremlin chief to make an official state visit to Egypt was Nikita Khrushchev in 1964.
In addition to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, Putin and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak also discussed Iraq, where violence has been on the rise in recent weeks.
Putin indicated Russia wants to see a timetable for the departure of U.S.-led forces.
"There must be an agreement on the basis of a new constitution, and there must be an agreement on the timing and conditions for the withdrawal of foreign troops from Iraq," the Russian leader said.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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I agree that the AC won't be a Pope, but it seems very likely that the FP will.
Now I need to correct something I said above:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
I've also read (somewhere?) that the Orthodox Religious Leaders in Israel are claiming that their messiah is already in Israel (just not 'revealed' yet).
OK, I found what I read and it isn't the Orthodox Leaders, but the Kabbalistic Sect. This is a post from the other board:
Mystical Places - School of the Kabbalists in Jerusalem
#1 World Kabbalist Says - Moshiach Coming Very Soon
Rav Kaduri: Moshiach has Arrived
"After the Sharon government (current Israeli administration), the Moshiach will come" -- so foresees the Tzaddik, the G-dly Harav Yitzchok Kaduri, shlita. His words were reported in the Israeli newspaper Yediot Achronot.
In the words of the Rav, the Moshiach is already in the Holy Land, and will reveal himself in the future at the moment that is set for him. The Rav revealed to his students that according to calculations of the Vilna Gaon, the war of Gog and Magog began about [three] years ago (on Hoshana Raba), and will continue for seven years. During this time, every moment is suited for the Moshiach to reveal himself. (The American War on Terror began on Hoshana Raba when the Americans went into Afghanistan.)
Rav Kaduri has lately been speaking with greater frequency on the revelation of the Moshiach, and he said that signs have already been given for this from Heaven by way of cosmic events, which indicate -- according to the secrets of Torah -- the arrival of the benevolent end of days. "The world continues on and is being sweetened" -- thus is the Rav accustomed to addressing his students.
The revelation of the Moshiach, according to the Rav, will rescue Jerusalem from the hands of Islam and Xtianity, both of which seek to overwhelm Jerusalem and wrest ownership of her away from the Jewish people; but their ways will not succeed and they will wage war against each other. The Rav revealed that hidden in the garments of Moshiach is a Magen-David which grants him the power to conduct himself in a concealed way.
As will be remembered, at the time of the meeting between Rav Kaduri, shlita and the Lubavitcher Rebbe more than 12 years ago, the Rebbe said to him that he would merit to live until the revelation of Moshiach.
(Source: www.kaduri.net , news, Hebrew site)
http://mysticalpaths.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_mysticalpaths_archive.html
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Well, I believe that the Jews will not accept as the Messiah someone that is not the direct decendant of David. The Messiah of the OT would be the decendant of David.
If a Pope were to be The antichrist, he would have to be Jewish.....a direct decendant of David.
There is a Jewish Cardinal by the way; He was a close friend of this last Pope and many thought him to be a contender for the office when John Paul would die.
I think that this pope is very interesting in that he is very conservative; I see that this is important because Islam would not likely be able to be eccumenical with a Jewish Pope at this time, but a conservative Pope that will stand hard on the WORKS doctrines of the church and on "piety and holiness" will appeal to Islam, and help them move closer into the picture.
If we can see babylon right now in 3 major religious movements they would have to be Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam... all are anti-christ, all must come together and I believe they will come together in the city that they currently all three share - Jerusalem... perhaps a great international city?
Catholicism denies the blood and sufficiency of the sacrifice and is being directed by the Jezebel Spirit.
Islam denies the promise & the seed through which the blessing is passed. They deny the birthright. Water- human birthright
Judaism, denies that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. Spirit
The blood the water and the Spirit are that which testify of Christ in the earth. to deny = Antichrist
I do not believe that the Pope is to be the antichrist; at this point, I believe that the Pope will be the false prophet.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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I agree Drew.
Linda, I think this is a significant step in the AC/FP process. I don't know End-Times Prophecies well enough to be able to disect it all, but seeing how these last two Popes seem to be Driven by this need for Ecumenical Unity (even across religious boarders) sets of alarm bells. They are Leading the way into the One World Religion. When I first read JPII say that all religions are paths to God, all I could think was "Wow! Is HE the False Prophet?"
Now I see the Vatican has 'validated' the unbelieving Jewish view that their 'messiah' has not yet come. Now there could be a way of justifying that statement, but it would not make it correct... Yes, the Jews will be saved AFTER they recognize that Jesus WAS and IS Their Messiah too. But to get back to my point, this opens up billions to accept the FP's claim of the AC as messiah (as Drew said). For the Vatican to claim that folks should not reach out to the Lost Sheep of Israel is Anti-Christ in and of its self! I'm wondering what the Denominations are going to do with this? Will they follow Romes edict?
Linda, you once said something about the AC being of Jewish decent (I think?). Could you expound on that if I'm remembering correctly? I've also read (somewhere?) that the Orthodox Religious Leaders in Israel are claiming that their messiah is already in Israel (just not 'revealed' yet). Now that I've seen this story, I need to try to find that one again... I have a feeling the two are going to tie together sometime soon.
I'm going to be going to a Seminar by Evangelist, Dr. Tom Farrell, tonight at Steven's school. He's going to be speaking on prophecy. It will be interesting to see if he touches on any of this.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Caretaker
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It causes me to speculate that this document could facilite the rise of the anti-Christ, in that he might be received by Jews as the promised messiah, and the apostate and secular. The document draws Jews and the RCC much closer together into a broad ecumenical umbrella.
2 Thess. 2:
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5: Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Do you have any personal thoughts on this Deb/
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=5649#top
The Wait Is Over: Jews' Messiah Now Kosher
Vatican affirms Jewish position; scholars scramble to decipher new doctrine.
Eric J. Greenberg - Staff Writer
In 1967, during the early thaw of Catholic-Jewish relations, Rabbi Irving “Yitz” Greenberg addressed a Catholic audience about the conflicting Messiah beliefs.
The Orthodox rabbi noted that one difference between Jews and Catholics is whether the Messiah is coming for the first or second time. Christians believe the Messiah — a Jew from Nazareth called Jesus — came 2,000 years ago, and after dying and being resurrected, will someday return to redeem the world.
Jews say the Messiah has yet to arrive — a belief that led to centuries of Christian anti-Semitism and killings of Jews who refused to accept the Christian view.
Rabbi Greenberg suggested the dispute be tabled until the Messiah arrives. When the Messiah comes, Jews and Christians “can ask him if this is his first coming or his second,” finally putting the issue to rest.
But this week, the Messiah debate suddenly took center stage in Jewish-Catholic relations, in an appropriately bizarre and mysterious manner.
It follows the revelation last week that the Vatican’s top biblical scholars recently issued a report that for the first time in nearly 2,000 years apparently validates as legitimate the Jewish wait for the Messiah.
A 210-page document titled “The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures in the Christian Bible,” by the Pontifical Biblical Commission and authorized by the Vatican’s top theologian, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, reportedly states that “the Jewish messianic wait is not in vain.”
It reportedly says Jews and Christians share their wait for the Messiah, although Jews are waiting for the first coming and Christians for the second.
The new document also reportedly contains an apology to the Jewish people for anti-Semitic passages contained in the New Testament, and also stresses the continuing importance of the Torah for Christians.
The book comes to light as anti-Semitism appears to be increasing around the world from Christian and Muslim sources.
For example, the Associated Press reported this week that Russian prosecutors are investigating an anti-Semitic Russian Orthodox Church priest, Sergei Nilus, who allegedly openly calls Jews the antichrist and enemies of Christianity.
But despite the potential significance of the new Vatican document, it was seemingly buried upon publication, quietly placed in bookstores in Rome last November. There was no press conference or public announcement, unlike many other important Vatican documents such as the 1999 “We Remember” Holocaust report.
In fact, the world was unaware of the new “Messiah doctrine” until last Friday, when The New York Times published a story about it based on a short report two days earlier by the Italian news agency ANSA.
“Everything in the report is now considered part of official Church doctrine,” Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls acknowledged after it became public.
Despite its potential significance, the document still was unavailable in English this week, being translated only in Italian, French and Polish. Further, the Vatican did not post it on its Web site in any language.
“For the time being the document ... will not be available [on] the Internet,” the Pontifical Biblical Commission told one American rabbi Monday, adding, “an English translation will be available [in] days.”
That left American Jewish and Catholic interfaith leaders scrambling this week for any information.
Initial speculation generally was positive, even as the interfaith leaders stressed that they were speaking without having seen the text. They also all questioned the “strange” behavior of the Vatican in failing to publicize such a significant document.
“The way it was released is extremely strange,” said Father John Pawlikowski, director of the Catholic Jewish Studies Program at the Catholic Theological Union in Chicago. “Normally they launch these things with fanfare and press conferences. Also the lack of an authorized English translation is particularly disturbing.”
“It’s very strange, “ said Michael Signer, professor of Jewish Thought and Culture at the University of Notre Dame. “This is not the most salutary way this could have been done.”
In Rome, Vatican officials denied they tried to hide the document fearing criticism from right-wing Catholics who oppose theological change.
“There was no intention to hide it,” said a Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Ciro Benedettini.
In the United States, Eugene Fisher, ecumenical director for the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, blamed a Vatican leadership that is understaffed and “clueless” about what is important to world interest.
But Fisher, who said he saw an English draft of the text last year, expounded on its importance. He noted that the theologically conservative Cardinal Ratzinger — the second most powerful person in the Vatican after the Pope — signed off on it.
Ironically, it is the same Cardinal Ratzinger who alarmed Jewish leaders last year when he declared that the Church is waiting for the moment when Jews will “say yes to Christ.”
Asked if Jews must, or should, acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, Cardinal Ratzinger told an interviewer, “We believe that. The fact remains, however, that our Christian conviction is that Christ is also the Messiah of Israel.”
How that declaration squares with the new “Messiah document” was a source of much speculation this week. But Fisher contended it’s a major positive development.
“If you put off the moment that Jews will come to recognize Jesus as the Messiah until the end of time, then we don’t need to work or pray for the conversion of Jews to Christianity,” he said. “God already has the salvation of Jews figured out, and they accepted it on Sinai, so they are OK.”
“Jews are already with the Father,” he continued. “We do not have a mission to the Jews, but only a mission with the Jews to the world. The Catholic Church will never again sanction an organization devoted to the conversion of the Jews. That is over, on doctrinal, biblical and pastoral grounds. Finito.”
Signer, also a Reform rabbi said, “What’s really new is the validation of the Jewish position as truth, that the Jewish waiting for the Messiah is a correct theological viewpoint. If the document says what we think, it is another very important theological step in the respect for Judaism as a living tradition.”
“It’s a very important, critical statement,” said Rabbi Jack Bemporad, head of the Center for Interreligious Understanding. “Up until now they were saying Jews are completely and absolutely wrong and we are waiting in vain and blind to the truth.”
Others were more cautious, noting continued significant differences in Messiah beliefs — particularly that Christians believe that their Messiah is Jesus who is also God, while for Jews the Messiah is not a divine being and cannot be Jesus because he died before bringing the redemption.
Rabbi James Rudin, senior interreligious adviser to the American Jewish Committee, raised several concerns.
“Does the new book instruct Catholics to fully accept the fact there is not only theological space in God’s universe for Jews/Judaism, but they must also affirm that the identity of long awaited Messiah, so ardently prayed for by Jews for centuries, is unknown and will remain unknown until the Messiah appears?” he asked.
“That is a clear affirmation of Judaism with no theological strings attached, no Jesus waiting for Jews at the end of the theological day. If this is the book’s message, then it is an important step forward on the part of the Catholic Church.”
Father Pawlikowski stressed that the new document also appears to affirm the importance of the “Jewish Bible,” a new term for the Vatican that he said would be highly significant if it replaces the traditional “Old Testament,” which has a negative implication as being replaced by the “New Testament.”
“The document seems to say that Christians should never deprecate or see the Jewish Bible as inferior, which coming from major Vatican biblical scholars could have profound implications for Catholic religious and educational material,” Father Pawlikowski said.
All the scholars said the next step is for the Vatican to make available the English translation as soon as possible so it can be studied.
“We hope to see it before the Messiah,” quipped one frustrated interfaith expert.”
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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