|
Author
|
Topic: How many Popes have there been?
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Some did some did not; I gave examples of those who made statements showing they understood their authority and others we claimed authority over others. In Rome there was an increasing movement over the years to claim authority of Rome over the Bishops of Antioch, Alexandria, Smyrna etc... I believe that this occured as Rome was the seat of authority over the empire; as the empire and the church were married this idea of Rome being the head was not just a matter of civil life but it bled over into the church....into religious life.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
Linda, referring to the Bishops of Rome, you said,
"They were out of line in that they wanted to Lord over the others when clearly according to the tradition of the apostles and the NT scripture, they were to be all equals and the head of the church Christ".
"My problem with the list is that the Roman Church tries to claim apostolic succession as the supreme primate of the Body of Christ passed uninterupted from Peter on and this is not so. Infact many of the men it claims as pope, did not consider themselves to be over any other Bishop".
Who were the others they wanted to Lord over if they did not consider themselves to be over any other Bishop?
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Favorminded; Come in here and tell us what you would add to this discussion.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
They were out of line in that they wanted to Lord over the others when clearly according to the tradition of the apostles and the NT scripture, they were to be all equals and the head of the church Christ.
The apostles established local congregations and in each locality appointed Bishops. Jesus in the letters to the 7 churches also saw this...local in a city congregations.
Yet, there is one BODY of Christ all equally important parts within a congregation and within a geographic locality.
Christ addressed 7 churches.
Paul saw himself as co-servants with the others. Each holding each other accountable, but not usurping the jurisdiction of the other. The council at Jerusalem I think displays this. Paul thought nothing of taking Titus with him and confronting the error of Peter, but because the Holy Spirit was at work in the body, the truth was spoken and Paul's authority was confirmed in his brothers. They were co-laborers... with ONE head Christ. Building a church that was neither greek nor Jewish, in areas that were indeed Greek and Jewish.
The power struggle with the Bishops of Rome were caused I believe because in Rome under constantine, the church became something it was never to be except under Christ. Christ is the ONLY one who will ever establish a "Christian" kingdom on earth. Those who understood this in the third century were largely persecuted and killed for opposing the HOLY ROMAN Empire.
If i were to say who was the first Pope as we know Pope, I would say Gregory because he was the first Pope to have true jurisdiction outside Rome with agreement of the other Bishops.
If I were to look at who was the first Pope for the purpose of prophesy, then I might look at Silvester who was Pope when Constantine declared Christianity to be the official religion of the empire marrying church and state, or I might look at Constantine himself, though he was never a Pope, he was in his heart what ONLY Christ can be... head of the church.
Or, I might look at Leo who was the first to claim universal primacy and have it confirmed by the emporer.
I guess it depends on what you are trying to look at. My problem with the list is that the Roman Church tries to claim apostolic succession as the supreme primate of the Body of Christ passed uninterupted from Peter on and this is not so. Infact many of the men it claims as pope, did not consider themselves to be over any other Bishop. also, we cannot deny that the church split over among other things Rome's claim to primacy.
In another thread Favorminded posted this list:
1. Pius
78
2. Leo
+91
3. Gregory
+136
4. Benedict
+105
5. John
+231
6. Paul
+21
7. John Paul
+3
8. New Name
+1
666
Why did he start this list with Pius? I dont know???
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
Ha ha Linda, you deleted the last one and I deleted the first one which didn’t seem go to start with. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Anyway, no problem I got it back on.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
ughhh. Bloodbought; I saw you posted double so I was deleteing one and you must have been deleting the other and so we deleted them all!!! I am so sorry. Please ask again and I will try to answer.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
According to what you say Linda; since the first real pope was Gregory, it means that in our calculation of the number of popes we need to leave out around the first 70 or so, because they were not popes but Bishops. We can leave the first one in the list out completely, which is the Apostle Peter, because he was neither a Pope nor a Bishop.
As you say, the scripture establishes the office of Bishops or elders, Apostles and deacons, so if these first office bearers were Bishops and not popes they were not out of line with scripture as far as their office was concerned. The question is, what was their message, was it any different than the message of the Roman Catholic Church under the pope today?
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I have to disagree with this list. The list is fine, but they were not all popes in the sense that we understand pope - the singular authority of the Catholic Church. They certainly were not all recognized as the authority of the church, by the other Bishops.
There is no documentation in scripture that establishes the office of the Papacy. The scripture establishes Bishops or elders, Apostles and deacons. In the scripture, Peter never refers to himself as Bishop. None of the NT writers ever refer to Peter as Bishop. Peter in 1Peter 5:3 speaks of his foreboding that his successors would lord over the flock rather than serve as examples to the flock.
The word Pope means "papa" Father, it was first applied to all the bishops of the western church, in about 500 AD, the use of this term became restricted to the Bishop of Rome.
During the first 400 years of church history the bishops of Rome were not Popes in the sense that they were Bishops of Bishops. This idea was fought every step of the way by the other Bishops.
Linus -67-79 AD
Cletus 79-91 AD
Clement 91-100 AD
Evaristus 100-109 AD
Alexander I 109-119 AD
Sixtus I 119 -128 AD
Telesporus 128-139 AD
Hyginus 139-142 AD
Pius I 142-154 AD
Were not Popes (Bishop of Bishops), but were the Bishops of the church at ROME. Clement wrote an epistle to the Corinthians and he does not refer to himself in that Epistle as having any authority over Corinth... He does not even write in his own name, but in the name of the church at Rome!
Anicetus who was the Bishop of Rome in 154-168 AD tried to get PolyCarp who ws the Bishop of the church at Smyrna to change the date of Easter observance. Polycarp refused!
Soter was Bishop of Rome from 168-176 AD and he was followed by Eleutherus, who served from 177-190 AD.
Victor I who was Bishop of Rome from 190 -202 AD said he was going to excommunicate the eastern churches for celebrating Easter on the 14th of Nisan and the Bishop of Ephesus told him that he was not afraid of the threats of the bishop of Rome and Iranaeus who was Bishop of Lyons rebuked Victor for trying to show authority over the eastern bishops!!!
Zephyrinus was Bishop of Rome from 202-218 AD
Calixtus I from 218-223 AD
Urban I from 223-230 AD
Pontianus 230-235 AD
Anterus 235-236 AD
Fabian 236-250 AD
Cornelius 251-252 AD
Lucius I 252-253AD
Stephen I 253 AD-257 AD
Sixtus II 257-258 AD
Dionysisus 259-269 AD
Felix I 269-274 AD
Eurychianus 275-283 AD
Caius 283-296 AD
Marcellinus 296-304 AD
Marcellus 308-309 AD
Eusebius 309-310 AD
Miltiades 311-314 AD
ALL BISHOPS OF ROME - having no authority over the other Bishops in the other churches!!!!
Calixtus was the first to claim authority based on Matthew 16:18 and for this Tertullian of Carthage called him a usurper.
Stephen I tried to exercise authority over baptismal practices in Africa and Cyprian who was bishop of Carthage at the time answered him claiming that each Bishop was supreme in his own church. Cyprian refused to yield to Rome!
Silvester I was Bishop in Rome from 314-335AD; it was Silvester that was Bishop when Constantine made Christianity to official religion of the Roman Empire. Constantine regarded himself as the supreme head of the church in all the empire.
It was Constantine that called the first world wide counsel of the church and presided over it.
This was the Council of Nicaea and was held in 325 AD. In that council basic church doctrine regarding Christ was established and condemned Arianism which was a heresy being taught in Alexandria by the priest Arius, who maintained that the Son was a created being inferior to the Father. The council of Nicaea established that the three centers of Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch each was independent of the authority of the others. The centers and the Bishops of each province did have a sort of honor, Rome being the Capitol of the Empire having the greatest honor, but Rome was not the authority over Antioch or Alexandria. Jerusalem was 4th in this honor. Constantinople would not by the way even be a center until 5 years later.
While Constantine was head of the Church because he was head of the State, there were still Bishops in Rome... Marcus served from 336-337 AD and Julius I from 337-352 AD.
The first council to recognize the authority of the Bishop of Rome was the council of Sardis in 343 AD. This was NOT NOT NOT an ecumenical council. It was a council of the western church leaders.
By the end of the 4th century ad, THE Church had 5 centers and 5 Bishops who had become known as patriarchs. The centers were Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria.
Liberius was Bishop of Rome from 352-366 AD
Damascus from 336-384 AD
Siricius was Bishop of Rome from 385-398 AD and he claimed universal jurisdiction over all 5 centers and the whole of the church, but in 395AD, the empire was divided into East and West...two empires with two em porers. The Eastern churches in the eastern empire refused to recognize the authority of Rome as Constantinople was their Capitol City.
Anastasius was Bishop of Rome from 398-402 AD
Innocent I was Bishop of Rome from 402-417 AD and he called himself not POPE but "Ruler of the Church of God"
Zosimus was Bishop of Rome from 417-418 AD
Boniface 418-422 AD
Coelestine 422-432 AD
Sixtus III 432-440 AD
Augustine was Bishop of Hippo until 430AD; as Rome had been sacked by the Goths and the western empire was falling apart, the Roman pagans blamed the Christians for the decline of the empire. They believed that because the empire had ceased to appease the pagan Gods the empire was coming to an end. Augustine began to write the "City of God" which was a defense against these claims and in it he in visioned a Christian Universal Church Hierarchy under one head.
Some historians recognize Leo I as the first Pope; he was Bishop of Rome from 440-461 AD and he was a powerful force of negotiation for Rome, persuading the Huns under Attila and in 455 the Vandals to spare Rome. He claimed himself by divine appointment to be Lord of the Whole Church and Supreme authority over all Bishops and in 445 AD, the Empire Valentinian III gave him this official recognition.
Leo I claimed Universal papacy and that resistance to his authority would send you to hell. He pronounced the death penalty for heresy which was anything that was not in agreement with him. But in 451 AD, at the 4th ecumenical council, the council of Chalcedon, the Patriarch of Constantinople was given equal footing with the Bishop of Rome in spite of the Western Empire's Emperor's decree.
Hilarus was Bishop of Rome from 461-468 AD
Simplicius was Bishop of Rome from 468-483 AD
The Roman Empire fell in 476 AD.
It was not until 590AD that the first real Pope came to office, this was Gregory the Great. He was unlike any before him; born of a wealthy Patrician family, Gregory gave up all to serve God; he became a monk. He had great influence in the East and a passion for purging the Church of sin. He denounced the haughty attitudes of those Bishops before him and he called himself a Servant of God's Servants. Gregory was the first Pope to be accepted outside his own Jurisdiction as a Bishop of Bishops establishing authority in Italy, Spain, Gaul and England. He did not claim jurisdiction over Constantinople, but he did have great influence in the east as well.
Later Pope Zacharias 741-752AD and Stephen II were instrumental in leading Pepin, father of Charlemagne king of Franks into victory over the Lombards and Pepin gave the conquered territories which amounted to a large part of Italy to the Pope. Now the Pope had become an earthly king and the Papal States began. This was confirmed in Charlemagne with Leo III and for the next 1000 years the HOLY Roman Empire lived again in the west under the joint control of the German Em porers and Popes sharing temporal and spiritual control until the time of Napoleon.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
Very good TEXASGRANDMA,
Thank you.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
Hello,
I’m trying to work something out regarding end time prophesy and I would be interested to know how many Popes there has been.
Does anyone here know how many Popes there has been altogether and their names and how long they held office?
Thanks in advance.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
