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Author
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Topic: Shroud of Turin Back In News
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niedziejkore:
Well, its not an issue of wether it happenned or not that is in the mind of a pagan. In it, the bible states many things that actually happenned. Remember that not only is the bible a source of spiritual reference, it is also somewhat of an early history textbook. Whether or not the area was in fact destroyed by fire and brimstone is irrelevant to non-christians, as the issue with Soddom and Gomorrah is that they do not believe that Lot was visited by angels. [/QB]
I have found that many non-believers don't accept the Bible even as a historical record. In fact many so-called christians will express doubts about many occurances recorded in the Bible.
I met people who feel many books that have prophecy, such as Daniel were written after the fact, and they state that Daniel didn't prophecy of the the things he did.
I guess the only things I've heard is that some people will say that Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because of God's judgement for homosexuality, but that God destroyed them for not being friendly to strangers.
As to believing in angels, I've found that people are more willing to believe in "angels" than in God. Even pagans. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I really wish that they could uncover Noah's Ark.
Just think what an unroar would be caused by that piece of Bibical history!
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Niedziejkore
Advanced Member
Member # 2773
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posted
quote:
Acurate scientific findings never conflict with the Bibical records, and as a Christian, while this is NOT the foundation of our faith, it's another avenue the Lord can use to reach those who may be in doubt, about believing in God.
Well, its not an issue of wether it happenned or not that is in the mind of a pagan. In it, the bible states many things that actually happenned. Remember that not only is the bible a source of spiritual reference, it is also somewhat of an early history textbook. Whether or not the area was in fact destroyed by fire and brimstone is irrelevant to non-christians, as the issue with Soddom and Gomorrah is that they do not believe that Lot was visited by angels.
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Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave.
Posts: 346 | From: Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2004
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Acurate scientific findings never conflict with the Bibical records, and as a Christian, while this is NOT the foundation of our faith, it's another avenue the Lord can use to reach those who may be in doubt, about believing in God.
![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif) ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) Amen!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
I watched an interesting documentary about scientific studies on the feasilbility of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction according to the Bible.
The scientists showed that like the account in Genesis, the area where Sodom and Gomorrah was has natural deposits of asphalt, and had gases under the earth's surface, and that Indeed the areas were devastated by fire and brimestone.
I believed the Bible's account before ever watching this show, but it's certainly validating to have that testimony of scientific evidence to tell to unbelievers.
Acurate scientific findings never conflict with the Bibical records, and as a Christian, while this is NOT the foundation of our faith, it's another avenue the Lord can use to reach those who may be in doubt, about believing in God.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by onesog:
Answer this for me if you will. What does the authenticity of the Shroud have to do with your walk with Christ?
Does it matter if this 'relic' (The Shroud or Turin) is real or not?
If 'it' does matter are you not guilty of nothing more that "relic worship?"
I suggest that those of you who are hung up on the Shroud's authenticity repent. Receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have the one who's no longer covered by any 'shroud' living in you and you in Him.
JMHO
Dear Onesog please read your words again and ask yourself if it sounds judgemental to you? I did not say anything about the article, I just posted it because I thought it was news worthy. Does it fulfill prophecy? I honestly don't know because I'm not an expert on prophecy. I'm afraid if that's a pre-requisit for posting the news here then I'll have to step down and someone more knowledgable can step up to the plate and I would'nt have a problem with that at all.
As my Dear Sister Laurie ( ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif) ) pointed out, I'm simply trying to fill in a gap left here in this section when our brother Ripp left. I am Not a prophetic scholar. Was this the right section for this article? I don't know. If it isn't, then I apologize.
I find things like the Shroud and Biblical Archeaology to be very interesting (as I'm sure many others do as well). These things are NOT necessary to our faith because our faith is not based on things we can see but on Belief in Jesus, who HE is, what HE's done for us. And I doubt seriously that any one on this BBS worships relics.
However, these things can be great conversation starters with non-believers and hopefully open up an opportunity to share the Gospel with that person.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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onesog
Community Member
Member # 4169
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by LaurieFL:
Forgive me.
No forgiveness needed from me Sister. God has already forgiven you and I hold nothing against you, the son of God who's soul God died to redeem.
quote:
I am sorry. I erred in judgement and sinned against you. Please allow me to attempt once more to explain where I am "coming from" and also to respond to your response to me. This may aid us in our "getting to know one another."
I do not care about icons or shrouds, as indicated in my original reply to this thread. Your post seemed to me to be saying all of us who responded on that thread were revering icons or some such thing.
I find it difficult to not infer a personal attack or judgement when people respond to posts made by Christians saying that "you need to receive Jesus," which of course everyone does - but I usually take that to mean a person is speaking to the poster, as if they were more righteous than they and that the former couldn't possibly be saved. If that were the case, then yes, that sort of righteousness and puffed-up-edness (is that even a word?) is filthy rags to God. Our righteousness, if we have any, is from Christ. I sinned in pride in my previous post, although I did not see it that way at the time, but felt I was defending a friend.
I understand but know that she needs no defense. She too is a son of God. As you get to know me you will see that I say exactly what I mean. Occasionally I will make a typo. I rarely attack individuals. I will almost always attack false doctrines. I was doing neither in my response to SoftTouch.
quote:
I don't live in Dade county, nor do I know what the implication is regarding anyone who might live in Dade County.
Forgive me. It was a loose reference to the fact that so few people in Dade County are capable of reading something as simple as a ballot at a voting booth and my perception that you too were incapable of understanding what you were reading. My reference was an attempt to insult your intelligence. I apologize and hope that you forgive me.
quote:
I don't know how to use quotes, I apologize. But this statement below seemed to me to be an attack on SoftTouch and on the people who had replied to the thread and not a mere question. I think in the case of written language, where we cannot see people's facial expressions or hear their tone of voice, it is so important to step lightly. I confess I failed in that today as well.
I can see now here you said "those of you hung up on..." could have been directed at people not specifically involved in the thread, but at the "sinners who need repentance" who may have been reading. Makes sense.
Does it matter if this 'relic' (The Shroud or Turin) is real or not?
If 'it' does matter are you not guilty of nothing more that "relic worship?"
I suggest that those of you who are hung up on the Shroud's authenticity repent. Receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have the one who's no longer covered by any 'shroud' living in you and you in Him.
I see that you know how to use the UBB tags. In order to use the "quote" feature simply type the word "quote" between the brackets [ ] to open a quote and "/quote" between the brackets to close the quote. Don't use the quotation marks.
quote:
As for my being a hard-knuckled woman who views herself in authority over men...
Actually I believe the term I used was "knuckle-buster" but... well, we'll move on k? ![[Wink]](wink.gif) quote:
well, I didn't know your gender until in that sentence you implied you are male, so I am not sure that is a relevant statement in this situation. Truly, over the internet, you do not know my gender either. However, there is no scripture that bars me from correcting or rebuking anyone regardless of gender, race, creed, etc..
Actually yes it does. "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Timothy 2:12
You do have authority over Satan, his demons, and all creation but you do not have authority over the man, the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ or God. Does this mean you cannot share and minister?
Not as I see it but hey, that is between you, your husband and God.
quote:
My formula regarding how to correct and exhort fellow believers, which I posted at the end of my response to you, is purely Biblical in my interpretation - that we are to address specific sins or failings in our brother's and sister's lives, and that is difficult to do without knowing the person. That is where I failed and sinned against you, by making assumptions regarding your motives when in fact it seems to have been a misunderstanding on my part. The beam in my own eye (the "beam" was making an assumption in this case)made me botch any attempt to fix what I perceived to be a problem in someone else. This is why we are warned of this by Christ, because most of the time we botch these things because we are imperfect ourselves. I also sinned because we are told to do this sort of thing in private, and I did consider that, but chose to do it the other way out of fear of some sort of nasty PM-war. That was wrong of me as well.
Might I suggest that before you jump someone's case in public you first try to rectify any problems you have with someone in private messages first "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:15-17) *Emphasis mine
Uncovering a son of God in public is not "Godly."
quote:
I am not sure how to respond to your statements regarding the state of my faith and beliefs or the role of legalism in my life. I can only hope if you stick around a while, you will learn more about me, so we can address issues like that specifically if you see weaknesses in my life and walk. I welcome that sort of thing as I strive daily to be more like my King and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Thank you Onesog and Mentorsriddle for showing me my error and failure. Every day I find some new flaw or failure that makes me cry out for God's mercy and forgiveness.
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(1 John 3:2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Posts: 17 | From: Arizona | Registered: Dec 2004
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MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
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posted
No one is perfect my friend. If that was the case then we would all still be in Eden ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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LaurieFL
Advanced Member
Member # 3794
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posted
Forgive me. I am sorry. I erred in judgement and sinned against you. Please allow me to attempt once more to explain where I am "coming from" and also to respond to your response to me. This may aid us in our "getting to know one another."
I do not care about icons or shrouds, as indicated in my original reply to this thread. Your post seemed to me to be saying all of us who responded on that thread were revering icons or some such thing.
I find it difficult to not infer a personal attack or judgement when people respond to posts made by Christians saying that "you need to receive Jesus," which of course everyone does - but I usually take that to mean a person is speaking to the poster, as if they were more righteous than they and that the former couldn't possibly be saved. If that were the case, then yes, that sort of righteousness and puffed-up-edness (is that even a word?) is filthy rags to God. Our righteousness, if we have any, is from Christ. I sinned in pride in my previous post, although I did not see it that way at the time, but felt I was defending a friend.
I don't live in Dade county, nor do I know what the implication is regarding anyone who might live in Dade County.
I don't know how to use quotes, I apologize. But this statement below seemed to me to be an attack on SoftTouch and on the people who had replied to the thread and not a mere question. I think in the case of written language, where we cannot see people's facial expressions or hear their tone of voice, it is so important to step lightly. I confess I failed in that today as well.
I can see now here you said "those of you hung up on..." could have been directed at people not specifically involved in the thread, but at the "sinners who need repentance" who may have been reading. Makes sense.
Does it matter if this 'relic' (The Shroud or Turin) is real or not?
If 'it' does matter are you not guilty of nothing more that "relic worship?"
I suggest that those of you who are hung up on the Shroud's authenticity repent. Receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have the one who's no longer covered by any 'shroud' living in you and you in Him.
As for my being a hard-knuckled woman who views herself in authority over men...well, I didn't know your gender until in that sentence you implied you are male, so I am not sure that is a relevant statement in this situation. Truly, over the internet, you do not know my gender either. However, there is no scripture that bars me from correcting or rebuking anyone regardless of gender, race, creed, etc..
My formula regarding how to correct and exhort fellow believers, which I posted at the end of my response to you, is purely Biblical in my interpretation - that we are to address specific sins or failings in our brother's and sister's lives, and that is difficult to do without knowing the person. That is where I failed and sinned against you, by making assumptions regarding your motives when in fact it seems to have been a misunderstanding on my part. The beam in my own eye (the "beam" was making an assumption in this case)made me botch any attempt to fix what I perceived to be a problem in someone else. This is why we are warned of this by Christ, because most of the time we botch these things because we are imperfect ourselves. I also sinned because we are told to do this sort of thing in private, and I did consider that, but chose to do it the other way out of fear of some sort of nasty PM-war. That was wrong of me as well.
I am not sure how to respond to your statements regarding the state of my faith and beliefs or the role of legalism in my life. I can only hope if you stick around a while, you will learn more about me, so we can address issues like that specifically if you see weaknesses in my life and walk. I welcome that sort of thing as I strive daily to be more like my King and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Thank you Onesog and Mentorsriddle for showing me my error and failure. Every day I find some new flaw or failure that makes me cry out for God's mercy and forgiveness.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
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posted
I do not believe the shroud has anything to do wether or not the gospel message is relevant or not. The bible declares that we mut have faith. My faith is built on nothing less then Jesus'blood and righteousness.
Romans 10:9-10
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
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posted
IS THIS THE WAY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT!?!?!
Who's right is it to rebuke? Whose right is it to Judge? GOD'S!!!!
Why can't you both just make up with each other and live in peace the way Christians are supposed to do?
How can we expect non beleivers to accept the peace of Jesus if the followers of Jesus know only anger and impatience?
You are both children of God and you need to act like it.
Goodness!
Lord help us on our way to understanding
![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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onesog
Community Member
Member # 4169
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by LaurieFL:
Onesog - I rebuke you in the name of Christ.
First of all; GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN!. Second, let's get this straight. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE POWER OR AUTHORITY to rebuke me. I am a son of God, seated at His right hand in heavenly places (EPH 2:6.)
quote:
You do not know the people of ths board,
And you do not know me. quote:
and do not know Softtouch or her intent in making this post.
And I don't care what her "intent" was. I asked three simple questions. If they are too difficult for you to answer or if you think your clairvoyance is giving you all the answers then just sit back, keep your mouth shut and try to follow the thread. You may learn something. quote:
She is our current watcher for end time news,
PRAISE GOD. I never questioned 'her' motivation Laurie. YOU DID by throwing a temper tantrum and not allowing her to answer my questions. quote:
and this incident seemed relevant to her as some end time prophetic fulfillment.
Great! Tell me. HOW does this event line up with any prophecies in scripture?
It's a simple question. No attacks are present within the structure of the sentence. It's a legitimate question as are the other three I asked in my earlier post.
Please pray tell, what is my motivation for asking the questions I've asked? Or are you simply a knuckle busting woman who thinks you have some God given authority over men? quote:
Instead of accusing her of not being saved,
Again, show me where I said, "SoftTouch, You're not saved."
I think you need to get off your high-horse and learn to comprehend with you are reading instead of trying to read between the lines things that are not there.
Capisca?
quote:
I recommend that you investigate her motive in making the post by asking her directly.
What do you think I did? Sheeeeez! Let me guess. You live in Dade county right? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
This is the second post I have seen by you, in only 4 that you have made, where you have implied that some of our most devoted Christians on this board are not saved.
Really? Hmmmm? Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps I am not here to call the righteous (those like yourself of course ) but sinners to repentance? Has it ever occurred to you that there may be lurkers who visit this forum? Did it ever occur to you that I might have been a member of this forum when it first started and that I may know more about it that you think I do?
Listen, I know this will be difficult for you to understand Laurie but I don't "imply." I flat out state what I mean. This way people like you, (those who think you have some mystical ESP thing going on) won't be confused by my meaning.
Now if my 'questions' to SoftTouch in some way convicted you might I suggest you go to God with your guilt and repent? If it didn't I suggest you back off and let the dialog's continue. I am not one of your little clones stuck in the legalistic box of religious hooey you seem to be content living in. I am led of God through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit and God doesn't fit into your little box of trinkets.
quote:
Your righteousness is but filthy rags to God.
I, and ALL born-again, Spirit filled Christians are the "righteousness of God" in Christ (Philippians 3:9) quote:
Please do not come to this Christian board, where many saints have spent time learning and teaching and growing in their walk with Christ, and begin making assumptions regarding our spiritual state.
Excuse me but it is YOU who are making "assumptions." I ask three little questions, not directed at any individual I might add, and YOU, with all the vitriol and venom only Lucifer himself can muster, attack me.
I say once again, Get thee behind me satan. quote:
If, after you have gotten to know people on this board, you see a specific person or persons involved in what you believe to be a specific sin or false doctrine, then by all means we exhort you to encourage, correct,and rebuke as necessary.
You'll need to forgive me Laurie but God is my Lord. Not you. If God leads me to post a particular question or two, or if He leads me to make a specific post as He's leading me to do here, then I'm going to do it.
If you have a problem with that then take it up with Him.
Now! Don't talk to me again until you can act like a lady.
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(1 John 3:2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Posts: 17 | From: Arizona | Registered: Dec 2004
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LaurieFL
Advanced Member
Member # 3794
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posted
Onesog - I rebuke you in the name of Christ. You do not know the people of ths board, and do not know Softtouch or her intent in making this post. She is our current watcher for end time news, and this incident seemed relevant to her as some end time prophetic fulfillment. Instead of accusing her of not being saved, I recommend that you investigate her motive in making the post by asking her directly.
This is the second post I have seen by you, in only 4 that you have made, where you have implied that some of our most devoted Christians on this board are not saved.
Your righteousness is but filthy rags to God. Please do not come to this Christian board, where many saints have spent time learning and teaching and growing in their walk with Christ, and begin making assumptions regarding our spiritual state.
If, after you have gotten to know people on this board, you see a specific person or persons involved in what you believe to be a specific sin or false doctrine, then by all means we exhort you to encourage, correct,and rebuke as necessary.
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
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onesog
Community Member
Member # 4169
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
The following article is located at:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/012/32.56.html
ChristianityToday
The Shroud's Second Image
New evidence reopens debate about the controversial relic.
By Gordon Govier | posted 12/15/2004 9:00 a.m.
[/i]
Answer this for me if you will. What does the authenticity of the Shroud have to do with your walk with Christ?
Does it matter if this 'relic' (The Shroud or Turin) is real or not?
If 'it' does matter are you not guilty of nothing more that "relic worship?"
I suggest that those of you who are hung up on the Shroud's authenticity repent. Receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have the one who's no longer covered by any 'shroud' living in you and you in Him.
JMHO
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(1 John 3:2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Posts: 17 | From: Arizona | Registered: Dec 2004
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LaurieFL
Advanced Member
Member # 3794
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posted
I believe the Bible is the word of God, of course. I also believe the RCC has probably done many untold things in concealing writings especially from the general populace.
However, I must say, regarding the Shroud of Turin that I studied with the man who proved that it had paint from the middle ages on it. One of my skills as a scientist is being a microscopist, and I had the privilege of studying under Dr. Walter McCrone before he died. He was the "father of Microscopy" in the modern era. His work is oddly not mentioned in the article posted above. His work on the shroud was very simple and very direct and I believe showed the shroud to be a "painting."
http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html
Dr. McCrone, who I believe may have been a Christian, received many death threats for years after this work, until the time of his death.
I do not need any artifacts to enhance or strengthen my faith in Christ and in His resurrection. I believe the Catholic church has for centuries violated the Word of God and the principles contained therein by cherishing and idolizing "artifacts." They have misled many people this way and have handicapped their own parishioners in their ability to have a personal relationship with Christ.
John 20:29
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
Posts: 700 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
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posted
In my opinion after watching the Shroud of Turin in it's documentarie form- I believe it was Jesus. What are the odds that a Middleeastern man underwent crucification and follow the exact findings of the crucification of Jesus according to the bible.The odds are 1 in 1,000,000,000 The herbs and the flowers seeds etc.. were only native to a certain area of the middleeast and some of those found only native around Yerusalem. Here is what I gather over the years:
1) The Ark or something that looks like the ark found on the mountains of Arat. Turkey/Russian border
2) The family box of the 1/2 brother of Jesus found and within it family related articles.
3) The evidence of an universal flood. How did those fossils get all the way up on the Himaylayas. Some one must just walked all the way up and in bedded it in the rock on the very top.
4) The Dea Sea Scrolls found
5) Extra biblical information found to solidify the biblical accounts. check out CRI (Christian Research Institute)
6) The Shroud of Turin found
7. The Rodd Expedition. Do you remember that? If you do you must know and heard Mahalia Jacson in concert. The Rodd Expedition although not intended to be religous proved somethings what Jesus had said.
What other things is the papacy keeping from us. In the middle east there has been talk about a book of the gospel called: Gospel according to St. Thomas. Letters of Mariam and Magdalena.
Aunt Marta lived in Tel Viv for many years. She was a born again first in the family. Her son my cousin I would had sponsored him here in US, however the plane they boarded was shot down over the Black Sea on the way to Kiev where alot my dads family lived. Yiddish is one of the main languages of the Ukraine. Any way my Aunt wrote to me many of times and said there are many rumors of the church confiscatings things from public view. In one letter she said the church of Rome took something out of the Nazeret Valley. Oh well. There are many things I think we are not privy to because of the vatican control.
Again all these things are being made known to prove the bible we have today is the very book it claims the word of God.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
The following article is located at:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/012/32.56.html
ChristianityToday
The Shroud's Second Image
New evidence reopens debate about the controversial relic.
By Gordon Govier | posted 12/15/2004 9:00 a.m.
The shroud of turin was widely dismissed as a medieval forgery after radiocarbon tests in 1988 dated it to the 13th or 14th century. Now a growing body of evidence is calling for reassessment of the shroud, which is kept in Turin, Italy.
The latest item comes from the London-based Journal of Optics, published by the Institute of Physics. Two scientists from the University of Padua, Giulio Fanti and Roberto Maggiolo, report in the journal's April edition the discovery of a heretofore-undetected reverse image on the shroud. They say the smaller, fainter image on the back of the cloth depicts just the face and hands. And it's a superficial image, adhering only to the outermost fibers, just like the image on the front. "It is extremely difficult to make a fake with these features," Fanti writes.
The fact that their study was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is significant and "a step in the right direction", says Barrie Schwortz, editor of Shroud.com. This is one of the most comprehensive of the many websites devoted to the phenomenon.
Schwortz, who is Jewish, was a shroud skeptic until he served as a photographer for the 1978 Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP). The five-day project was the most intensive investigation in the history of the image. Besides providing the first public viewing of the media age, the project reinforced the shroud's cachet as a truly unique religious icon.
But then, 10 years later, came the much-heralded carbon-14 tests, confirmed by three laboratories, dating the cloth to the Middle Ages. "It was like dropping an h-bomb, and seeing how long it takes life to come back," says Gary Habermas, chair of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University, who has coauthored two books on the shroud.
Science vs. Science
While most people concluded the shroud had been discredited, some significant questions have been raised. One of the main questions was whether the samples chosen came from an area of the shroud that was repaired.
"What if we can prove that the carbon dating didn't sample the original shroud but a rewoven area?" Schwortz asks.
He is awaiting word from another scientific journal, which is currently reviewing a paper on a chemical analysis by a STURP colleague. That colleague, Raymond Rogers, a retired fellow of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, claims the carbon-14 tests were done on a dyed piece of medieval-era linen and cotton. He theorizes the cloth came from an undocumented repair of the shroud. On April 9, 2004, National Geographic suggested that the test samples came from a patch repaired during the Middle Ages.
"It's a case of science vs. science, not faith vs. science," Habermas says. But until they're officially discredited, he says the carbon-14 tests are still the most powerful objection to the validity of the shroud.
Paul Maier, a professor of ancient history at Western Michigan University and an expert on early Christianity, says, "The paper trail doesn't go back far enough." The specific history of the shroud goes back only to the 14th century. "I tend to think something as important as this would've had more attestation [because] the early church was interested in hard objects [connected to the faith]."
Habermas still has doubts about the shroud. But he counters that there are a half-dozen images of Jesus on coins and paintings dating to around the sixth century that bear a remarkable congruency to the face on the shroud.
Some researchers have linked the shroud with reports of an image of Christ discovered hidden in the city walls of the Turkish city of Edessa in the sixth century. The image reportedly was later taken to Constantinople, where it disappeared in 1204.
Pollen from plants native to Turkey and Israel turned up on pieces of sticky tape that the late Swiss criminologist Max Frei had pressed onto the shroud. In recent years two Israeli scientists, Hebrew University botanist Avinoam Danin and Israel Antiquities Authority pollenologist Uri Baruch, said they confirmed Frei's pollen evidence. Danin also claimed to have found images of flowers, unique to Israel, in the shroud.
Quality Material
Since STURP, the closest examination of the shroud occurred in 2002. A Swiss textile expert, Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, remounted the shroud. She replaced a backing dating from 1534.
Flury-Lemberg said she discovered a stitching pattern on the shroud similar to the hem of a cloth found in first-century Jewish tombs at Masada. She said the weave's three-to-one herringbone pattern was authentic for a first-century cloth of unusually fine quality.
Two Israeli archaeologists announced in 1997 that they believed the shroud could not be 2,000 years old because a garment could not last intact for 20 centuries (ct, Oct. 27, 1997, p. 100). About three years later, however, archaeologist Shimon Gibson discovered shroud-wrapped remains in a tomb in Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley. Although this shroud was in tatters, it was submitted to one of the same laboratories that handled the Turin shroud. Scientists dated Gibson's shroud to the first half of the first century, making the tomb occupant a contemporary of Jesus.
Gibson's discovery was largely unheralded. But late last year Gibson released the results of the tests, which showed the tomb occupant had died of Hansen's disease. The shroud had covered the oldest confirmed remains of a leprosy victim.
Like Mel Gibson's movie, The Passion of the Christ, the shroud opens a window into the hearts of those who view it. "There is only one person it could've wrapped, even though science could never prove who it wrapped," Schwortz says. "The biggest irony of my life is that I spend most of my time trying to convince Christians that the shroud is authentic. God does have a great sense of humor."
Gordon Govier is the host and executive producer of The Book & the Spade, a weekly radio program focusing on biblical archaeology.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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