|
Author
|
Topic: Sorting out interpretational problems concerning angels
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
In the Greek for this verse, the word translated wind is pneuma and the word translated Spirit is Pneumatos.
Some people do not know that Greek nouns have different endings to show their case and count.
Greek has several cases. One of the cases is Genitive. It shows possession or class.
I don't have either of my Greek course books with me. Nevertheless, I think you'll find that
"of the spirit" is the correct English rendering of the Greek genitive singular phrase "τοῦ πνεύματος/tou pneumatos".
"Pneumatos" means "of spirit/wind". "Tou" is the definite article that means "the". "Tou pneumatos" means "of the spirit/wind."
quote:
John 3:8 τὸ πνεῦμα ὅπου θέλει πνεῖ, καὶ τὴν φωνὴν αὐτοῦ ἀκούεις, ἀλλ’ οὐκ οἶδας πόθεν ἔρχεται καὶ ποῦ ὑπάγει· οὕτως ἐστὶν πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ Πνεύματος.
Young is not one with whom I would try to find fault unless I knew Greek a lot better. I would suspect anyone else of being ignorant, first.
IP: Logged | 
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
John 3:8
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Almost every translation for this verse reads: 'the wind blows', and 'born of the Spirit'.
In the Greek for this verse, the word translated wind is pneuma and the word translated Spirit is Pneumatos.
They are both Strong's number 4151. The word can be translated as wind, breath, or spirit.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon definition for this word is over 6 pages long. The word changes meaning according to context and grammar.
This has been written about Robert Young and his translation:
YOUNG, ROBERT: Lay theologian and orientalist
Young's translation is designed to assist students in the close study of the Biblical text by reproducing in English the Hebrew and Greek idioms, in an exceedingly literal translation. In the New Testament his translation is based on the text of Estienne 1550...It will be noticed that the English is highly unnatural. In the pursuit of minute accuracy, Young tries to represent the Greek tenses with certain English tenses consistently, he tries to adhere to the word-order of the original, and he consistently translates a Greek word with the same English word in all of its occurrences. But in doing these things, he often fails to give the sense of the Greek correctly in English. It is doubtful whether the translation is really of much help to those who do not know Greek, because here the English is being forced to observe rules of the Greek language. The reader must become familiar with Greek syntax and vocabulary in order to make sense of the English! Regarding Young's translation of the Old Testament, F.F. Bruce writes that "it is largely vitiated by an eccentric theory about the tenses of the Hebrew verb." (The English Bible: A History of Translations, p. 132.)
So, while Young's translation is very literal, he was in fact a self-taught layman, and his translations lack the education of Bible scholars whose lives are devoted to scripture and the ancient Greek and Hebrew of scripture. The YLT is a good translation that is included in most lists of translations, but it is not the best English translation.
When studying scripture, it's a good idea to look at several different translations to try to get a clear understanding, and to refer to lexicons and other resources when a word is questionable. We study scripture to hear what the Word of God is telling us.
We are so blessed to live in a country where we not only are allowed to study the Bible, but we have a wealth of resources available to us. A serious student of scripture will use every resource he can to fully understand the Word of God.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
I do like YLT.
Why does Young treat the New Covenant scripture differently from the Old Covenant scripture to which it refers?
quote:
Psalm 104:4 Making His messengers — the winds, His ministers — the flaming fire. (YLT)
Heb 1:7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, ‘Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;’ (YLT)
It's interesting how YLT translates the Hebrew 'winds' and the Greek 'spirits'. The only logical conclusion is that 'spirits' means 'winds'.
Jesus said that His words were spirit/wind.
quote:
John 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life; (YLT)
In another place (and using the same Greek word for spirit - i.e., pneuma), Jesus speaks of how men are moved by the spirit.
quote:
John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
The Spirit, like a wind, can't be seen. There are two more ways the Spirit is like the wind: He blows, and He can be heard.
One can see the effect of the words Jesus spoke (which are Spirit): all those that are born of the Spirit/Wind are moved the same general direction.
Jesus was a physical man. He still has a physical body - even in His resurrected state. His message, however, is wind. It is spirit.
As spirit/wind, the message of Jesus keeps on moving people around even though His physical body is not present to speak the words.
It is similar with the messengers. They had physical bodies by which they were able to present words to men. The words they spoke were not from the messengers, themselves. The words carried by the messengers were from God.
The words carried by angels had their origin in God. As such, they continued to have force as long as God had appointed for those words. As such, the message is like a wind that continues to have effect after the messenger finishes talking.
God makes His messengers winds. The message God gives the messenger is like a wind.
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Ditto.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION - ALL SCRIPTURE HARMONIZES
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
Genesis 6:1-7
The most remarkable thing concerning the old world, is the destroying of it by the deluge, or flood. We are told of the abounding iniquity of that wicked world: God's just wrath, and his holy resolution to punish it.
In all ages there has been a peculiar curse of God upon marriages between professors of true religion and its avowed enemies. The evil example of the ungodly party corrupts or greatly hurts the other. Family religion is put an end to, and the children are trained up according to the worldly maxims of that parent who is without the fear of God.
If we profess to be the sons and daughters of the Lord Almighty, we must not marry without his consent. He will never give his blessing, if we prefer beauty, wit, wealth, or worldly honours, to faith and holiness.
The Spirit of God strove with men, by sending Enoch, Noah, and perhaps others, to preach to them; by waiting to be gracious, notwithstanding their rebellions; and by exciting alarm and convictions in their consciences. But the Lord declared that his Spirit should not thus strive with men always; he would leave them to be hardened in sin, and ripened for destruction. This he determined on, because man was flesh: not only frail and feeble, but carnal and depraved; having misused the noble powers of his soul to gratify his corrupt inclinations.
God sees all the wickedness that is among the children of men; it cannot be hid from him now; and if it be not repented of, it shall be made known by him shortly. The wickedness of a people is great indeed, when noted sinners are men renowned among them. Very much sin was committed in all places, by all sorts of people. Any one might see that the wickedness of man was great: but God saw that every imagination, or purpose, of the thoughts of man's heart, was only evil continually.
This was the bitter root, the corrupt spring. The heart was deceitful and desperately wicked; the principles were corrupt; the habits and dispositions evil. Their designs and devices were wicked. They did evil deliberately, contriving how to do mischief. There was no good among them. God saw man's wickedness as one injured and wronged by it. He saw it as a tender father sees the folly and stubbornness of a rebellious and disobedient child, which grieves him, and makes him wish he had been childless.
The words here used are remarkable; they are used after the manner of men, and do not mean that God can change, or be unhappy. Does God thus hate our sin? And shall not we be grieved to the heart for it? Oh that we may look on Him whom we have grieved, and mourn! God repented that he had made man; but we never find him repent that he redeemed man.
God resolves to destroy man: the original word is very striking, 'I will wipe off man from the earth,' as dirt or filth is wiped off from a place which should be clean, and is thrown to the dunghill, the proper place for it. God speaks of man as his own creature, when he resolves upon his punishment. Those forfeit their lives who do not answer the end of their living. God speaks of resolution concerning men, after his Spirit had been long striving with them in vain. None are punished by the justice of God, but those who hate to be reformed by the grace of God.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
You would like Young's Literal Translation.
Hebrews 1:7 (YLT)
and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;'
Hebrews 1:7 (NASB)
And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Hebrews 1:7 (ASV)
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels winds, And his ministers a flame a fire:
Hebrews 1:7 (Darby)
And as to the angels he says, Who makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire;
Hebrews 1:7 (ESV)
Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.”
Hebrews 1:7 (HCSB)
And about the angels He says: He makes His angels winds, and His servants a fiery flame,
Hebrews 1:7 (ISV)
Now about the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds and his servants flames of fire."
Hebrews 1:7 (KJV)
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:7 (NCV)
This is what God said about the angels: “God makes his angels become like winds. He makes his servants become like flames of fire.“
Hebrews 1:7 (NKJV)
And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire."
Hebrews 1:7 (NLT)
Regarding the angels, he says, “He sends his angels like the winds, his servants like flames of fire.”
Hebrews 1:7 (NIV)
In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire."
Hebrews 1:7 (NRSV)
Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire."
Hebrews 1:7 (DRV)
And to the angels indeed he saith: He that maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:7 (NASB77)
And of the angels He says, " WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Hebrews 1:7 (RSV)
Of the angels he says, "Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire."
Hebrews 1:7 (WEY)
Moreover of the angels He says, "HE CHANGES HIS ANGELS INTO WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERING SERVANTS INTO A FLAME OF FIRE."
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
Believing God is not the author of confusion
What you do with Scripture depends upon your view of God. To me, God is not the author of confusion; He's the God of peace.
The power of God is such that it can push a message through a donkey. And, the power of God is the stuff with which we reckon, here.
My faith is that the power of God was sufficient to get everything we needed to know about salvation into the writings that we, today, consider the New and Old Covenants. I believe the intelligence of God was sufficient to choose the words of the message He wished to convey - each individual word of that message holding the exact meaning God had in mind. I believe the love of God was sufficient to make His message uncomplicated to the point that even the simple who trust Him could be made wise.
If the Bible is unclear, it is because 'obscurantists' have been at work.
Dynamics of Obscurantism
Until recently, I didn't know the reason why Old Covenant writings were, sometimes, so hard to harmonize with New Covenant writings. Then, I found out that that was, in part, because so many of the English versions of the Bible depend upon the Masoretic text (which wasn't compiled until about the end of the 1st century AD). Because of the hatred that the Jews had for Christ (support for whom could be found all through the Septuagint), they presented a rivalist version. Many of today's interpretations of Scripture are built on that rivalist text.
Many of the the pre-Masoretic scriptures found in the Dead Sea scrolls show that the Jews who worshipped God before Christ supported the Septuagint (or, so I've read). Even more, the Samaritan Targum varies from the Masoretic about 6000 times, supporting the Septuagint 2000 of those times (or, so I've read).
Adding to the obscurantism of the Masoretic text, is the acceptance of the sense that the words inspired by the living God were insufficient for the enlightenment of His elect. To me, that is an expression of distrust of God. Those who distrusted God added their own meanings to His words. The addition of meanings to God's inspired words, inevitably, forced the usage of uninspired words (like 'spirit' and 'angel'). The usage of uninspired words, inevitably, helped propagate teachings that are not possible to harmonize.
All scriptures should harmonize
The Scriptures are said, by Jesus, to be unbreakable.
quote:
Joh 10:35-36 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
False doctrine interrupts the harmony of Scripture
I do regard the usage of transliterations like aggelos as the source of false doctrines. Because the word 'angel' pretends to have spiritual content beyond the definition of the word 'messenger', it will be hard to dialog with people who are invested in that uninspired word.
{b]The natural meanings of terms used in this dicussion[/]
Since we are discussing terms from the Word of the God who is not the author of confusion, let us accept what He says about those terms.
Men had knowledge of messengers who were unable to die. That's Bible history.
The power of God makes sons of God which cannot die. That's Bible fact.
Sons of God and messengers of God cannot die.
In Job, we find out that ALL of the sons of God (none of which can die) were present as God built the earth. They most certainly were not descendants of Seth the first ancestor of which had not, at that time, been created. That's Bible history.
All of the sons of God, since they cannot die, were still alive when sons of God took wives of the daughters of Adam's kind, and, had children by them. That's Bible history.
Unless God is the author of confusion, there can not be two different kinds of sons of God at the same time. Some of the sons of God who existed before Adam was created were the sons of God who created this horror. (That's Bible commentary.)
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
As noted earlier, religions are created when men invest in spirituality in order to capitalize on ignorance.
But what if ignorance of spirituality is invested in religion to capitalize, what is the real price paid?
Hint; little boiler big Whistle goin up stream big river.
Steam is like wind but no air.
A whistle (or call) is a simple aerophone, an instrument which produces sound from a stream of forced air. It may be mouth-operated, or powered by air pressure, steam, or other means. Whistles vary in size from a small slide whistle or nose flute type to a large multi-piped church organ.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
I love the passage from Hebrews that has been presented. The interpretation that you have accepted has, absolutely, no bearing on the salvation you, obviously, enjoy.
As noted earlier, religions are created when men invest in spirituality in order to capitalize on ignorance. One way they do that is to interpret old words in more ways than are necessary the way they do with "baptize" and "angel". Another of the words given multiple interpretations is 'πνεῦμα' / pneuma.
Pneuma means wind or breath, but, it gets translated 'spirit', too.
By translating pneuma into spirit, one can overlay that word with scaary ghosty stuff the same way they do with aggelos/messenger.
In the Hebrews 1 passage presented by others in this thread, pneuma is translated two different ways: spirit and wind. Religions make money teaching their followers how to recognize contexts so as to interpret according to denomination - and, thus, converts are kept exploitable, and the life of the Word of God is kept from us.
We need forensic interpretation to find out how our association with Christ became so lifeless so we can fix it.
What if, instead of reading "He maketh his angels spirits", we read "He maketh His messengers winds"?
It might remind of us of the way the Lord used Philip after Philip immersed the Ethiopian. Remember how Philip went to Azotus? quote:
Act 8:39-40 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Did you see how the interpretation says "the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip"? (That 'caught away', incidentally, is a great place to put the word 'rapture'.) Why not say "...the Wind/Breath of the Lord caught away" Philip?
In talking about messengers and resurrected men, Jesus reminded us that we need to take into account the power of God to make in men the changes necessary to accomplish the things for which those men were called. It may be that the Wind/Breath of the Lord is evidence that His power is being applied.
When we read that the "Spirit" of God hovered over creation making changes...
quote:
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
...(remembering that what was done with the Greek was, also, done with the Hebrew), why not read that the Wind/Breath of God did the work? That does not have to take away from the Person that the Breath/Wind is any more than the use of Logos/Word takes away from the Person that Jesus is.
(I'm hurried. Can't proofread. sorry.)
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Hebrews 1:1-14 (NASB)
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
7 And of the angels He says,
"WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
8 But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Hebrews 2:5-18 (NASB)
5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking. 6 But one has testified somewhere, saying,
"WHAT IS MAN, THAT YOU REMEMBER HIM? OR THE SON OF MAN, THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HIM? 7 "YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET."
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
13 And again, "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM."
And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Some interesting read about angels on pg 22 of this book if ya can find it.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/larkin/larkin_rightly-dividing.html
Rightly Dividing the Word
By Clarence Larkin
This is the introductory first chapter (with charts) of a much larger work, "Rightly Dividing the Word." (328 pages)
Clarence Larkin was born October 28, 1850, in Chester, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. He was converted to Christ at the age of 19. He was a mechanical engineer, teacher and manufacturer by trade. In 1884, at the age of 34, he became an ordained Baptist minister. His first pastorate was at Kennett Square, Pennsylvania; his second was at Fox Chase, Pennsylvania, where he remained for 20 years. He was not a premillennialist at the time of his ordination, but his study of the Scriptures, with the help of some books that fell into his hands, led him to adopt the premillennialist position. He began to make large wall charts, which he titled, "Prophetic Truth," for use in the pulpit. These led to his being invited to teach, in connection with his pastoral work, in two Bible institutes. During this time he published a number of prophetical charts, which were widely circulated.
He spent three years of his life designing and drawing the charts and preparing the text for his most noteworthy book "Dispensational Truth." Because it had a large and wide circulation in this and other lands, the first edition was soon exhausted. It was followed by a second edition, and then, realizing that the book was of permanent value, Larkin revised it and expanded it, printing it in its present form. Larkin followed this masterpiece with other books. During the last five years of his life, the demand for Larkin's books made it necessary for him to give up the pastorate and devote his full time to writing. He went to be with the Lord on January 24, 1924.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Imagine that. Satan has been working against the plan of redemption since Eden, all through the centuries. And still each time a sinner is redeemed and covered in the righteousness of Christ, it is a cause for amazement and rejoicing among the angels!
I wonder what they see. Something dark, dirty and ragged suddenly made strong and pure and shining bright?
So, wild shining-star guy, what do you think about "angels are men and men become angels"? I liked Highway to Heaven, but it was entertainment, not Discovery Channel. Not Bible Study.
I guess that means that the unredeemed would become demons, like in the horror flicks.
There are a lot of shows like that, aren't there? People become angels or demons. Do people think those are real? They must believe in aliens, vampires, and superpowers too. It's disturbing how much people are influenced by fiction, especially fiction that misrepresents Biblical truth.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
You are misunderstanding those verses because you don't study, you just make things up. Using Study Bibles and Commentaries is very helpful, along with parallel translations. The Bible Hub has lots of helpful resources you can use for free online.
Running away to start new topics on the same subject instead of having real discussions with people is not very helpful. But that's okay, I'll try to keep up.
I love it when people say they want the literal translation.
Does this help you?
I looked at a dozen different Study Bibles and Commentaries, and every single one said that the sons of God in this verse are either Sethites, or violent and powerful rulers, possibly demon possessed.
There are fifteen references to angels in the Pentateuch and each time it refers to angels it calls them angels - never the sons of God. The only exception is Genesis 3:24 when they are called cherubim. Angels are called sons of God only in Job. Otherwise, throughout the Bible, angels are called angels.
Concerning translations:
The original NASB has earned the reputation of being the most accurate English Bible translation. The NASB update carries on the NASB tradition of being a true Bible translation, revealing what the original manuscripts actually say--not merely what the translator believes they mean.
Concerning angels:
Angels carry out God’s judgment (2 Samuel 24:16-17)
Angels serve God (Psalm 103:21)
Angels praise God (Psalm 148:2)
Angels are messengers (Daniel 4:17)
Angels protect God’s people (Daniel 6:22)
Angels do not marry (Matthew 22:30)
Angels do not die (Luke 20:36)
Angels will be judged by people (1 Corinthians 6:3)
Satan disguises himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14)
Angels encourage Christians (Hebrews 1:14)
Angels who sinned were thrown into hell (2 Peter 2:4)
Angels are holy (Jude 1:14)
Angels are in the presence of God (Revelation 4:8)
Angels should not be worshiped (Revelation 22:8-9)
Concerning demons:
Worship in false religions honors demons (Psalm 106:37)
Demons try to hinder God’s plan (Daniel 10:13)
Demons are no match for Jesus (Mark 1:34)
Demons want to destroy people (Mark 5:5)
Demons submit to the name of Jesus (Luke 10:17)
Demons can be driven out by Jesus’ followers (Acts 16:16-18)
Demons are powerful (Acts 19:16)
Demons cannot separate people from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39)
Demons deceive people (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)
Christians fight against the plans of demons (Ephesians 6:12)
Demons want to mislead people (1 Timothy 4:1-2)
Demons believe in God (James 2:19)
Demons are angels that have sinned (2 Peter 2:4)
God will judge demons (Jude 1:6)
Do not take demons lightly (Jude 1:8-9)
In the last days, demons will be bound by God (Revelation 20:1-3)
Nothing here about marrying women.
Human beings DO NOT become like angels, we become like Christ. We will be like angels ONLY in the sense that we don't die and therefore don't procreate.
The Weymouth New Testament is a little clearer on this verse. We are sons of God BECAUSE we are resurrected. Angels are not ever resurrected.
Luke 20:36 (WEY)
For indeed they cannot die again; they are like angels, and are sons of God through being sons of the Resurrection.
In the Bible, only SOME HOLY ANGELS were given bodies to do the will of God. Satan has to ask God's permission to do things, and scripture NEVER says that fallen angels were given physical bodies. There is nothing in scripture about demons ever having physical bodies of their own.
I know how much you want demons to have physical bodies, but I can't even begin to tell you how extremely grateful I am to God our Father that they don't. They wouldn't stop with women, you know. Men, women, and children would all be victimized.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
scythewieldor
unregistered
|
posted
I love the King James Version. It sounds beautiful to the ears and to the soul. But, I do have problems with it. I have problems with many interpretations of the Bible. That's why I like literal translations and old language. (Actually, I don't know any Hebrew and very little Greek.)
The problem with interpretations is that the interpreter/interpretors are subject to marketplace dynamics. For instance, when the KJV was being produced, there was, still, a threat in the world that was against men who called baptism immersion. You see, religion is an investment in spirituality that capitalizes on ignorance. And the Catholic religion was invested in sprinkling. That's why the less-than-bold interpreters went with a transliteration of 'βαπτίζω / baptizo'.
A similar investment had been made in the word 'ἄγγελος / angelos'. The word means 'messenger', but angelos, like baptizo, gets transliterated rather than translated- and for the same reason. An investment had been made in spirituality in order to capitalize on ignorance concerning angels. Today, most continue to think of angels/messengers as scaaaary ghosty things while the Bible - yes, the Bible - calls some of them men.
What are messengers?
Now, I know that Christ was made a little lower than the "angels".
quote:
Heb 2:6-7 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Now read it in the literal- substituting 'messenger' for 'angel'.
God made man a little lower than the messengers. What was the message that the messengers were supposed to carry?
quote:
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
All of the angels/messengers are ministering spirits sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation. When did the need for salvation begin? There was no need for salvation in the Garden of Eden. Adam was ruling with God on earth. No; the need for ministering spirits began when Adam and Eve were sent out of the garden. What were the messengers before they were messengers? To understand that, we need another idea with which to compare messengers.
Jesus, having special understanding of angels, compared them to sons of God.
quote:
Luk 20:35-36 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Jesus says that those who are accounted worthy of the resurrection are equal to the angels. In other words, a resurrected man = a messenger. Then, Jesus says that a resurrected man is a son of God. In other words, a resurrected man = a son of God. That means, a messenger = a son of God.
For us, this is a fortuitous comparison for the sons of God existed before mankind's need for salvation - before the need for messengers.
What are the sons of God?
quote:
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
All of the sons of God shouted for joy at the creation. Remember. The sons of God are immortal. They have indestructible bodies with special powers. They have not died from the day that God started building the earth to this day - nor ever shall.
After the fall of Adam, the sons of God were made messengers. Why? Sinful man couldn't visit directly with holy God. Yet, God so loved the world (with Adam exercising dominion according to His wisdom) that He inaugurated a way to communicate salvation with Adam's kind: messengers.
However, some of the sons of God which were made messengers married, and, had children by, the daughters of Adam's kind.
quote:
Gen 6:1-4 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
For the sons of God (by that time, having been made messengers/angels) to make wives of, and, have children by, the daughters of Adam's kind, that was "going after strange flesh". Thus, they left their first estate.
What are messengers that left their first estate? [\b]
quote:
Jude 6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
This interpretation is really unfortunate. The second verse, though it ends with a period, is not even a sentence. Beginning with the phrase "Even as", it absolutely must have an object to be "even as" to make sense as a sentence. Since it doesn't, you have to go back to the previous verse to find out what the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrha is even as.
The fire that judged Sodom and Gomorrha is an example of the eternal fire unto which the angels that left their first estate are reserved in chains under darkness- and for the same reason.
[b] How did the messengers do their jobs
How do these messengers do their jobs? Well, under the Old Covenant messengers made the decrees of God and the coming of the Just One known to Israel and Judah.
quote:
Act 7:52-53 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
The message brought by the messengers clarified the difference between one who needed to be saved and one who could save. When Jesus came, the messengers looked upon him and rejoiced for, finally, the Savior had been born.
The job of the messengers, in that case, was to give us that specific message: A savior had been born.
quote:
Luk 2:10-14 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
So, when the Bible tells us that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, it is telling us that he was subject to majestic messengers. In other words, He had to keep the law brought by the messengers while He was alive.
Recap
God's messengers are immortal. God can make men immortal like his messengers are. Again, the men God resurrects will be immortal like His messengers are. And, like His messengers which the Bible calls men, they will have real human bodies - though glorified like the body of Jesus.
They will neither marry nor will they be given in marriage. That does not mean that their sexual organs stop functioning. They will be real men. However, they will be ruling the world throughout the millennium. They will have no other interest but to glorify God as they reign with their resurrected and returned Savior and Lord.
Men accounted worthy of the resurrection will be sons of God, having immortal bodies like the messengers. However, in the millennium the job of the sons of God will be to rule so as to bring all of creation into their glorious liberty. In other words, the business of the sons of God in the millennium will no longer be to minister for them who shall inherit salvation. Salvation will have been inherited, at that point. It will be to exercise dominion over creation according to the heavenly wisdom as Adam did before his fall.
Finally, a son of God has an immortal body like the body of the resurrected Jesus. As such, he is be endowed with special powers (the powers to come), and he rules on earth according to the direction of God.
The same power of God that can make men immortal can, hypothetically, make other beings immortal. (Maybe the four beasts seen Rev. 4:7 were not symbolic.) The point is that immortal does not mean "scaaary ghosty" thing. It means having a real body that never dies. In other words, when God makes men like the messengers, he makes their bodies indestructible like the bodies of the ones He made His messengers- hence, a lake of fire for the devil and the fallen messengers.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
