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Topic: war or peace
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Port Moresby:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
No error. It should be clear to all, that from the beginning that God Filled the sails with His wind of providence. So you think that God turned the other way to pick up a few sparrows yet neglected The Greatest Nation on Earths Constitution aside from Israel?
I am sorry, WildB, but I am straining to follow your train of thought.
We all know what the Constitution says about religious freedom.
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.
That seems pretty 'cut and dry' n'est ce pas ?
Port
Christ is a relationship not a religion.
And needs no respect of an establishment.
To Which the freedom to practice will cost you today.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Port Moresby
Community Member
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
No error. It should be clear to all, that from the beginning that God Filled the sails with His wind of providence. So you think that God turned the other way to pick up a few sparrows yet neglected The Greatest Nation on Earths Constitution aside from Israel?
I am sorry, WildB, but I am straining to follow your train of thought.
We all know what the Constitution says about religious freedom.
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.
That seems pretty 'cut and dry' n'est ce pas ?
Port
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Posts: 18 | From: New Orleans | Registered: Feb 2013
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Port Moresby:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
[QUOTE]
Our Constitution birthed by the LordGod of Israel has given WE THE PEOPLE the responsibility not to let Tyrannic people rein!
Next!
I am sorry to have to disagree with you, WildB, but one can not in all seriousness claim that God birthed our Constitution.
It was written by men birthed by the Enlightenment. Rather brilliant men who were pretty keen on the idea of not making the disastrous mistake made by the nations of Europe who for centuries conflated the power of the state with a particular religion. The founders thereby eliminated the possibility of such heinous atrocities as the Thirty year war, and other religiously inspired strife.
We, in the US, can proudly claim to have the only Constitution which explicitly
protects the religious freedom of all people and which explicitly states that the government is neutral in all manners pertaining to the spiritual life of the citizenry.
As much as I treasure both Scripture and our Constitution, to render them analogous is to be in error.
Kind regards,
Port
No error. It should be clear to all, that from the beginning that God Filled the sails with His wind of providence. So you think that God turned the other way to pick up a few sparrows yet neglected The Greatest Nation on Earths Constitution aside from Israel?
Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Matthew 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Luke 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Luke 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Men set aside by God for God (holy) also penned the Bible as moved. These Men that penned the Constitution were Men set aside by God for Gods purpose. Why do you think that this Later Day Nation HATES that Constitution as much and even more that the KJV Bible?
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Prayerfully read,
Mayflower Compact : 1620
Agreement Between the Settlers at New Plymouth : 1620
IN THE NAME OF GOD, AMEN. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid: And by Virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions, and Officers, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general Good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience. IN WITNESS whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape-Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord King James, of England, France, and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth, Anno Domini; 1620.
Mr. John Carver,
Mr. William Bradford,
Mr Edward Winslow,
Mr. William Brewster.
Isaac Allerton,
Myles Standish,
John Alden,
John Turner,
Francis Eaton,
James Chilton,
John Craxton,
John Billington,
Joses Fletcher,
John Goodman,
Mr. Samuel Fuller,
Mr. Christopher Martin,
Mr. William Mullins,
Mr. William White,
Mr. Richard Warren,
John Howland,
Mr. Steven Hopkins,
Digery Priest,
Thomas Williams,
Gilbert Winslow,
Edmund Margesson,
Peter Brown,
Richard Britteridge
George Soule,
Edward Tilly,
John Tilly,
Francis Cooke,
Thomas Rogers,
Thomas Tinker,
John Ridgdale
Edward Fuller,
Richard Clark,
Richard Gardiner,
Mr. John Allerton,
Thomas English,
Edward Doten,
Edward Liester.
Most RespectFully,
wb
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Port Moresby
Community Member
Member # 10544
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
[QUOTE]
Our Constitution birthed by the LordGod of Israel has given WE THE PEOPLE the responsibility not to let Tyrannic people rein!
Next!
I am sorry to have to disagree with you, WildB, but one can not in all seriousness claim that God birthed our Constitution.
It was written by men birthed by the Enlightenment. Rather brilliant men who were pretty keen on the idea of not making the disastrous mistake made by the nations of Europe who for centuries conflated the power of the state with a particular religion. The founders thereby eliminated the possibility of such heinous atrocities as the Thirty year war, and other religiously inspired strife.
We, in the US, can proudly claim to have the only Constitution which explicitly
protects the religious freedom of all people and which explicitly states that the government is neutral in all manners pertaining to the spiritual life of the citizenry.
As much as I treasure both Scripture and our Constitution, to render them analogous is to be in error.
Kind regards,
Port
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Reach out, pierce the thin veil of the sheltering sky
Posts: 18 | From: New Orleans | Registered: Feb 2013
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KnowHim
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Member # 1
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posted
Wake up people what is wrong with you!!!
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. - Romans 13:4 (KJV)
The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the Bill of Rights. The Supreme Court of the United States first ruled in 2008 that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess and carry firearms.
We migrated to the United States to escape oppressive totalitarian government.
The concept behind the United States is that the centralized federal government has limited power over the people (as opposed to the dictatorships from which we came)
The Second Amendment states that in order to maintain a free state, the people must retain the right to keep and bear arms. The presence of armed citizens is what keeps the government "honest". No government would be foolish enough to impose a dictatorship on people who have the ability to resist.
The Second Amendment does not grant us this right. This right already existed. The Second Amendment merely prevents the government from infringing on it.
Every Christian needs to watch this movie:
http://christianvisualmedia.com/index.php/jomsocial/42-david/videos/video/204-monumental-trailer
As far as self-defense when one’s life or property is threatened, there is not a whole lot in the Bible concerning this. Exodus 22 does show quite a bit about God’s attitude towards self-defense. "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed. A thief must certainly make restitution, but if he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft” (Exodus 22:2-3). Obviously, here we see that when a thief breaks into someone’s house at night and that person defends his home and slays the thief, God does not hold that death over the defender’s head. However, God does not wish for anyone to take the law into his or her own hands. This is why it is said that if a thief is struck down during the daylight the defender is guilty of bloodshed. Now, this is speaking of thievery, not an attack. So if the thief were to attack the defender even during the day, self-defense would be justified.
As far as the Bible is concerned, the use of guns is a matter of personal conviction. There is nothing unspiritual about owning a gun or knowing how to use one. There is nothing wrong with protecting oneself or loved ones, even if it involves the use of weapons. We need not pretend there is never a need for guns, but pointing a gun at a person should always be a last resort. We should seek to neutralize threats without violence whenever possible.
From:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-gun-control-Bible.html
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by walkbyfaith:
Like your post Port. You could learn how to raise questions Wild Bill without attacking. Might learn a little from Port. It's a good topic and a hard one. Would God allow men to be slaves to others? Scripture say slaves obey your masters in all things. Also not only to the gentle and good but also to the froward.
Again you are throwing hand gernades, trying to put your thinking forward.
But "feelings" aside what is right!
Deuteronomy 24:7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.
No man can be a "Legal" slave/forced servant in America, but they can be a slave/servant to sin.
Luke 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Our Constitution birthed by the LordGod of Israel has given WE THE PEOPLE the responsibility not to let Tyrannic people rein!
Next!
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Port Moresby
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by walkbyfaith:
Like your post Port. You could learn how to raise questions Wild Bill without attacking. Might learn a little from Port. It's a good topic and a hard one. Would God allow men to be slaves to others? Scripture say slaves obey your masters in all things. Also not only to the gentle and good but also to the froward.
Now don't attack me here I'm just stating what the Bible has said. Unless you feel you have too lol. I in no way believe in slavery, but I don't believe God does either, but he allowed it to happen. Did he also make men war against it, or did he just give men victory because the better side was fighting against it.
Whatever we face on Earth will prepare us for Heaven. Will those who suffer more on Earth have greater reward in Heaven? I question these things because I'm not so prideful as to say I'm right and your wrong, but I try to follow what the word of God teaches. In my flesh certainly I would say lets fight slavery and racism, but in my spirit I question God what do you really want from us.
We know it's wrong, but what if we are judging all these things before it's appointed time. what if God would have many of us suffer wrong patiently,committing ourselves to God rather than this world.
This is a painful and difficult subject for me, Walkbyfaith, as I can not deny that the Scripture you quoted is indeed correct. Jefferson Davis, the leader of the Confederacy, is quoted as saying:
“"It [slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts...Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God - let him go to the Bible...I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation...Slavery existed then in the earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testaments - in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized, sanctioned everywhere.".
It is nigh impossible for me to square my moral intuition with the parts of Scripture that condone this most abhorrent of all iniquities.
Still, I know it to be wrong. I know it in my heart, and I think all decent people of good will know it to be wrong too.
Port
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walkbyfaith
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Like your post Port. You could learn how to raise questions Wild Bill without attacking. Might learn a little from Port. It's a good topic and a hard one. Would God allow men to be slaves to others? Scripture say slaves obey your masters in all things. Also not only to the gentle and good but also to the froward.
Now don't attack me here I'm just stating what the Bible has said. Unless you feel you have too lol. I in no way believe in slavery, but I don't believe God does either, but he allowed it to happen. Did he also make men war against it, or did he just give men victory because the better side was fighting against it.
Whatever we face on Earth will prepare us for Heaven. Will those who suffer more on Earth have greater reward in Heaven? I question these things because I'm not so prideful as to say I'm right and your wrong, but I try to follow what the word of God teaches. In my flesh certainly I would say lets fight slavery and racism, but in my spirit I question God what do you really want from us.
We know it's wrong, but what if we are judging all these things before it's appointed time. what if God would have many of us suffer wrong patiently,committing ourselves to God rather than this world.
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WildB
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posted
Wow do you ever read what you post ?
It reads of agenda?
It seams you are leaving a loop hole for you to run, duck and cover in?
Ecclesiastes 3
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Proverbs 6
16 These six things doth the LORD HATE: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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walkbyfaith
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There is a time for judgement and we know Christ will return as the Lion of Judah. All his enemies will bow before him. They will hide in the rocks and run from the power of the Lord. Yet we take his vengeance often and his judgment as if we can judge what the whole world does. No doubt God has given us his words so that we may stand against wrong doing and lead people to the courts to be judged as God has set up. The problem is putting that power in our own hands and puffing up our own minds we often take away from God's righteousness.
Men do have that fight instinct, but is it always good. Think of who started that thread of violence in man wasn't it Cain in killing Abel. It shows the chauvinistic views when real men can not be gentle and strong. Real men are taught not to cry, to wall up their feelings. What this does is takes away that heart of compassion. God teaches many men to be men of peace especially when they do not have fathers that teach them to war and violence.
Men use fighting to use up that energy that testosterone produces. There are many equally productive things to put that energy too. How about hard work? As for protection God protects his family and i'm sure he would desire us to protect those he has put in our lives. Do you need a gun to do this? God has provided law enforcement use them, and when we can't we always have God's Spirit to question what would God have us do.
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Port Moresby
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by walkbyfaith:
I am well studied and have read the Bible many times over, as well as praying for the Holy Spirits guidance. Be careful you don't stomp your brothers in the need to make your beliefs of more value than others.
I believe my values are truth because they aren't mine their the values Jesus upheld. I put his values above my own though often I don't live like i do. As Paul said that which we would do we don't and that which wouldn't do that we do. I believe many Christians are worldly in their attitudes and they make excuses for their self.
My feelings have nothing to do with my beliefs. I put truth above my heart and mind. For we know scripture says out of the heart comes adulteries, murders, ect. If I was using my feelings to judge right from wrong every time someone hurt me I would feel right in hurting them back, which isn't the case. Jesus was slow to judge and full of mercy and compassion.
When Jesus was spit on did he spit back, when he was beaten did he threaten , no we see Jesus asking Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Maybe if we had more followers of Christ more would be amazed at the love and grace of God. The true heroes are not warriors of drawing blood but warriors of Spirit who gave their blood and let it be spilled as a sacrifice of holiness.Who allowed God to be in control even when their lives were spinning out of control. Trusting God beyond the circumstance.
We try to make peace through war to what end. Love conquers war dictates. War separates nations and makes enemies hidden or not. Violence only promotes more violence until the cycle ends when someone choice is to forgive or bring peace. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.
While I sympathize with the general sentiment of your post, we mustn't forget that sometimes we have to raise the sword and fight for what is right.
Consider, as if for the first time, our deplorable history of slavery. Here where I live, in the Deep South, people would fight to the death to uphold their erroneous and hideous belief that they were granted by God Almighty the right to use other human beings as farm equipment. Our civil war, bloody and horrible as it was, liberated millions from the yoke of slavery.
I consider myself to be a peaceful fellow, but sometimes violence, or the threat of it, must be used to drag the more reactionary half of our nation into the bright light of modernity.
Port
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walkbyfaith
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the fight or flight theory. You use that ignorantly. Christians don't run from the battle. They are fighting the war every day. We don't avoid war because of fear we avoid it because it's right. How many Christians have been tortured in the name of Christ? They didn't run from battle they just didn't fight it like the world does.
As for Americas power it's on it's downfall. Want a few examples of pride Titanic, Rome, Hitler they all thought they were unsinkable or undefeatable. The in God we trust has been the only sinking value while pride is being lifted. This is what the Holy Spirit is telling us as believers. There is no example of a warring nation that hasn't fallen from overwhelming victories except for the USA. Our time for judgment is near, and grows stronger as we take God away from our schools, our courts,and our daily living. As we trust in our weapons, our soldiers, and the name of the USA.
The whole macho man thing is a thing of pride. Spiritual warriors would not call men wimps they would call them babies. Babes in the faith when God would feed you with meat your still feeding on the milk.
Posts: 80 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2013
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walkbyfaith
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I've heard a saying," We have to have guns because the bad guys have them." So we are relying on our weapons and ourselves right? What happens when men trusted in their swords, their horses and their chariots? Now days it would be their guns, their missiles, and their tanks. Would God say when will men learn from the past and trust in me? Having peace in God even if death comes.
Pride always comes with war. Even our most revered Bible warrior fell because of pride. David felt he could have what he wanted, and with power came corruption. David was not even allowed to build the temple for God because of the blood he spilled in war. Don't get me wrong God has called some men to battle, and David had been called to fight for God with Goliath.
Think you can't be a hero of peace. Read about Daniel offering his life to prayer wanting to always be communicating with God. When he was to die for this he didn't fight he let God work. What about Daniels friends in the furnace. They could of revolted against the government, but they just trusted God whether they lived or died. What about Job when he found out his family had been killed, he could of declared war. Instead he sought God and though he suffered much in the end came blessing.
Most people would say get real. When are God's disciples called to follow the worlds way of thinking. Being real and being honest go together right? Who's more honest than God? Thou shalt not kill. Was there a clause in there......unless Why not put a clause in the rest of God's commandments. You can't take the Lord's name in vain unless.....you hit your thumb with a hammer. You cant commit adultery unless.......your wife does it first.
I know now I'm just being funny, but peace is seriously what God intends man to seek. If God has called you to a place of authority where you fight and war I would say like Paul said with marriage it will bring many troubles. God still better come first and be where your trust lies. For war without God is judgment unjustified.
Posts: 80 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2013
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Carol Swenson
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As much as it aches my heart to see her this way, I would rather be like this blessed saint with a beat up face than to shoot someone in my church.
Personally, I don't want to follow Jesus Barabbas. I want to follow the other Jesus.
May the bad guys be brought to justice through a court of law, and the hand of God.
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WildB
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WildB
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Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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walkbyfaith
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sorry if you think my beliefs are silly but I stick to them. Just because a person does not go with the flow of the world doesn't make them wrong.
Posts: 80 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2013
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walkbyfaith
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Pride cometh before a fall
A fool is wise in his own eyes
A child shall lead them
For his lips may praise me but his heart is far from me
Posts: 80 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2013
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walkbyfaith
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You have used Old Testament Law to justify killing which is scary, because if you believe Old Testament law applies you would stone your children if their disrespectful, or stone a woman for committing adultery. This law was not for God but for man. The law was justice which God had to show us first so he could later draw us to the truth. For the law was weak and was our school master to draw us unto faith. A faith of mercy and compassion unlike the Pharisees who practiced following the law but let go of the more important practice of mercy.
There is a danger in shining the outside of our lives by glorifying law and justice and not allowing God to clean the inside of our hearts. You can also judge the things that are happening in our world today, and not understand God is allowing them for a reason. Our nation may be going down a wrong path, but we may deserve that path were walking. If we repent as a nation God can bless even our government.
Posts: 80 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2013
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walkbyfaith
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I am well studied and have read the Bible many times over, as well as praying for the Holy Spirits guidance. Be careful you don't stomp your brothers in the need to make your beliefs of more value than others.
I believe my values are truth because they aren't mine their the values Jesus upheld. I put his values above my own though often I don't live like i do. As Paul said that which we would do we don't and that which wouldn't do that we do. I believe many Christians are worldly in their attitudes and they make excuses for their self.
My feelings have nothing to do with my beliefs. I put truth above my heart and mind. For we know scripture says out of the heart comes adulteries, murders, ect. If I was using my feelings to judge right from wrong every time someone hurt me I would feel right in hurting them back, which isn't the case. Jesus was slow to judge and full of mercy and compassion.
When Jesus was spit on did he spit back, when he was beaten did he threaten , no we see Jesus asking Father forgive them for they know not what they do. Maybe if we had more followers of Christ more would be amazed at the love and grace of God. The true heroes are not warriors of drawing blood but warriors of Spirit who gave their blood and let it be spilled as a sacrifice of holiness.Who allowed God to be in control even when their lives were spinning out of control. Trusting God beyond the circumstance.
We try to make peace through war to what end. Love conquers war dictates. War separates nations and makes enemies hidden or not. Violence only promotes more violence until the cycle ends when someone choice is to forgive or bring peace. Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.
Posts: 80 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2013
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Well you have clumped a lot of verses taken out of context to push your "Feelings".
And I post just one to you.
Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Do you presume to guide the baseball fans with your overstep of the Holy Spirit? The study and interpretation of the Scriptures isn’t to be left to a select group of leaders. Rather, it is the responsibility of every child of God to have a well-rounded knowledge of the counsel of His will.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Lets take one verse at a time that you post.
1.- If someone smites thee on the right cheek turn to him the left also.
The Full text reads;
Matt 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Personally I led by the Spirit have allowed the other cheek but I would never then turn around and bend over to have the other two cheeks violated. Jesus said 2 cheeks not all four. Meek not weak.
The Government has every right to mandate Laws and regulations for the operation and safety of our Nation with in the guidance and restrictions of Our Constitution.It has absolutely no right to impose itself regarding the spiritual affairs of the Body of Christ. Yet Washington has indeed done just that. It has legislated that ALL will be part of the Murder of the Un-born American by the use of Tax moneys used by its mandated Obama care package. 330,000 Un born Americans were murdered last year BY ALL US citizens because of the funds paid to Planed Parent hood from this Caesar’s renderings of the Body of Christ..Here we must draw the line, for it is better to obey God
than EVIL men (Acts 4:16-20).
Then Washington goes one further with its violation of Our God Ordained Constitution of Rights, they now move forward to take the sword of defence from the Law abiding?
War or Peace indeed!
The Use of Deadly
Force in Self-Defense
By Pastor Ricky Kurth
Recently someone wrote us here at Berean Bible Society to ask, “Is it wrong to kill someone in self defense?” As the days around us grow darker, this is a question that more and more of God’s people are asking. This question looms even larger when we consider that some are predicting after-election economic collapse that might result in anarchy and chaos in our streets. Even if this never comes to pass, we need to ask ourselves what God would have us do if confronted with a life-threatening situation, or if the lives of our loved ones were to be similarly endangered. Surely the time to determine God’s will in such a situation is now, not then.Let’s begin with some advice that the Lord Jesus gave in the very shadow of the cross, when the days ahead were looking dark indeed:“...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one” (Luke 22:36).
A sword is an instrument of self-defense. It is not used in hunting; its only purpose is to take human life, making it the ancient equivalent of the modern handgun. In Bible days, it was the weapon of choice of the police and military (Rom. 13:1-4) and, just before He died, the Lord Jesus Christ recommended that His followers obtain one, even if they had to sell their garments to do so. You see, by that time He knew that the kingdom in which He advised men to turn the other cheek had been rejected by the people of Israel, and that His followers would need to be able to defend themselves in the dark days that the prophets predicted would follow His crucifixion.
Here you might be thinking, “But didn’t the Lord also say that ‘all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword’ (Matt. 26:52)?”
his famous quotation is often used in opposition to the idea of owning a firearm, but either the Lord is contradicting His advice to buy a sword here, or else He has something else in mind in the context. We feel the latter is the case, of course, so let’s consider the circumstances in which the Lord advised against taking the sword.
The night that He issued this advice, the authorities had come to arrest the Lord, and one of His followers sought to defend Him with a sword (Matt. 26:47-52).
1. Although the Lord was being arrested on trumped-up charges and would later be tried by a kangaroo court, the authorities were still the authorities, and resisting them is outside of the will of God in any dispensation. In restraining Peter from taking the sword against them, the Lord was teaching us that the government is to be obeyed by God’s people except when they act contrary to the law (Acts 23:1-5).
2 Had Peter succeeded in removing the head of the high priest’s servant and not just his ear when the man ducked sideways to avoid the slash,Peter’s blood would have had to be shed for wrongfully shedding the blood of another (Ex. 22:28 cf. Gen. 9:6).
This Old Testament ordinance was given as the ultimate expression of the power that God granted human government in the earliest days of civilization, and it has never been repealed.
The Lord had more to say about self-defense in Luke 11:21:
“When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace.”
Here the Lord authorized the use of arms in defense of one’s property as well as in defense of one’s self and the State of one’s family. While the Lord was making a spiritual application from this principle, it is important to notice that He does not condemn the principle of defending one’s goods. Being a Man of the Book, we feel He had Exodus 22:2 in mind:
“If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.”
Here we see that there are exceptions to the rule of Genesis 9:6. If you shed the blood of an intruder in your home or State, by the law of God your blood must not be shed to pay for his. If you are wondering why God would not condemn the use of deadly force in defense of mere material possessions, there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
First, it should be remembered that the motives of an uninvited man, found unexpectedly in your home in the middle of the night, are known only to him. You yourself have no way of knowing if he is there merely to steal your possessions, or to kill you and rape or harm the loved ones whom you are bound by God to protect as the head of your home.
If we men are to love our wives “as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it” (Eph. 5:25), we must be willing to give our lives in their defense. In addition, although the provision that Paul mentions in I Timothy 5:8 speaks primarily of financial things, we believe that a legitimate extrapolation can be made here to extend the meaning of this verse to include the provision of protection from any and all dangers as well.
Secondly, it should also be remembered that, in those days, a man’s life savings were more likely to be found in his home than in a bank, and so to rob his home robbed his family of the stable future for which they had worked together and sacrificed to attain. These reasons, and perhaps others, might be why God sanctions the taking of a human life in such a situation.
But what about the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” (Ex. 20:13)? While often raised as an objection against the use of deadly force in self-defense, this commandment, like all other verses of Scripture, must be viewed in light of the context of the Word of God as a whole.
We know that this verse cannot be a blanket condemnation of all taking of human life since the Bible also authorizes capital punishment (Ex. 21:12).
Even our apostle Paul recognized the government’s right to take his life if he were guilty of a capital offense (Acts 25:11), and so we know that the principle of capital punishment is still in effect during the dispensation of grace. So when the Bible also says “thou shalt not kill,” we must either conclude that the Bible is a hopeless mess of contradictions, or else that God sees a clear difference between the cold-blooded murder of an innocent person and the orderly execution of cold-blooded murderers. We believe that this latter explanation is the correct way to understand these seemingly contradictory Bible positions.War is another area where the taking of human life is legitimate in the eyes of God. When the soldiers asked John the Baptist, “And what shall we do?” it is true that John advised them to “do violence to no man” (Luke 3:14). However, these instructions must be considered in light of the fact that he did not insist that these soldiers quit being soldiers.
3.This means that the violence in which he forbad them to engage must have had to do with some sort of illegal violence. The Greek word for violence here has the idea of shaking, and just might be the idea behind our modern word shakedown, the illegal use of power or authority to extort money from people. The rest of John’s words here would suggest that this is what he had in mind, as he went on to tell them to “be content with your wages.”
We know from Ezekiel 45:9 that the orderly execution of judgment and justice by soldiers in the line of duty is not considered violence, for here God says to “remove violence” by engaging in the execution of judgment and justice. In addition, David said, “Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight” (Psa. 144:1). Clearly, the taking of human life in times of war cannot be a sin if God Himself taught David how to be good at it.
Here’s something else to consider. After Haman tricked Ahasuerus into ordering the extermination of the Jewish people, the king later countermanded his original order when he “granted the Jews which were in every city to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to destroy, to slay, and to cause to perish, all the power of the people and province that would assault them” (Esther 8:11). God’s people then proceeded to execute this royal decree on any and all who posed a threat to their lives (9:1-16).
These acts of self-defense were not censured by God in any way; indeed, they are clearly the end result of the providential working of God in the book of Esther, as the Almighty worked behind the scenes to save His people from extinction.It is clear then that God’s command of “thou shalt not kill” must be considered in light of His other clear commands that authorize the taking of human life for good and righteous reasons, such as the defense of one’s Country and people, and the defense of one’s loved ones.
While the taking of a human life is a grave and serious matter, we feel that the Bible’s position is that anyone who poses a threat to innocent life must be prevented from taking such life by any means possible. Some might argue that, since we go to be with the Lord when we die, a Christian shouldn’t resist an attempt on his life. But if Christians can serve as “God’s ministers” in the Military and in Law enforcement (Rom. 13:4-6), protecting the lives of others, it would be logical to conclude that a Christian should provide the same protection for his own, especially for those of his own house.
The practical ramifications of this principle are many, but it might be helpful to point out at least one, in the light of the recent (July 20,2012) mass shooting in Denver, the deadliest our nation has ever seen.(till Sandy Hook)
The death toll in this horrific shooting would not have been nearly as high if even a few of those present had been armed and trained in the use of the arms that the Lord Jesus instructed believers to obtain. In the midst of an armed citizenry, that particular gunman might have gotten off a shot or two, but his first shot would have sent responsible gun owners reaching for their own weapons, and the killers would then have been prevented from snuffing out one innocent life after another, as easily as shooting fish in a barrel.
It is interesting that, in the week following that shooting, applications to carry a firearm went up markedly in the Denver area. We would suggest that God’s people similarly go through the proper channels to legally obtain a firearm, and then seek proper training in its use, so as to be instructed (like David) how to defend the people of God whose lives have been entrusted to our care.
If you just can’t bring yourself to purchase a firearm, or if you are unwilling to take the time to receive the training that is needed to become a safe and responsible gun-owner, we would suggest you look into a taser or pepper spray or some similar weapon that would not leave you defenseless in a life-threatening situation, until
your 911 call is answered. Thats if it ever is?
In closing, we understand that there are very strong feelings on both sides of this volatile issue. Our hearts go out to those who have lost loved ones due to gun violence, for this writer has suffered a similar loss. If your loss has prompted you to adopt a position contrary to that which we have presented here, we want you to know that it is not our intent to try to dissuade you from your position. Our only wish is to offer Biblical counsel to those who yearn to understand the will of God in this critical and very practical area of life.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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walkbyfaith
Advanced Member
Member # 10538
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posted
This is an interesting topic and one covered much by Christ himself. Would he ask us why would we not rather accept wrong done and resist evil then revenge ourselves?
Where does war fit in the New Testament under our Lord Jesus when these are his statements.
- If someone smites thee on the right cheek turn to him the left also.
-love your enemy pray for those who hate you and despitefully use you.
-those who live by the sword shall die by the sword
-blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake
-whatsoever you would have men do unto you do unto them likewise
-Behold I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be ye wise as serpents but harmless as doves.
Then his disciples who have been taught of God say these
2 Corinthians 10 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds. Casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
-James says the wrath of man works not the righteousness of God and whence come wars and fighting but because of the desires of our flesh to pleasure.
-Peter says what profit is it if you are beaten for your faults and suffer patiently. If you do good and suffer for it and take it patiently, this is commendable to God. Also remembering Jesus who when he was reviled reviled not back. when he suffered he threatened not, but committed all judgment to him that judges righteously. 1 Peter 2:23
Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace wit ALL People, and holiness, Without which noone will see the Lord.
Our war is spiritual and I'd end with this from Jesus,"" Peace I leave with you my peace I give you not as the world gives you do I give you. Let your heart not be troubled neither be afraid.
Posts: 80 | From: Michigan | Registered: Feb 2013
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