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Author
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Topic: Why Be Concerned With Mid Acts Dispensationalism?
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Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
I have started a thread on the very subject as to when the present dispensation of grace began and I notice that you have not entered into that discussion.
Why not?
Jerry,
I do not believe in dispensations. They are all man made theories.
I think it's the line of thought regarding "dispensations" thats causing confusion.
Grace began in the garden of eden and has never failed.
There is a thread of grace running right through the scriptures from Gen to Rev.
Anyone who has ever been saved, has been saved by grace through faith.
But, faith without works is dead, being alone.
When we read the OT or the NT we should take it as the Lord speaking to us personally.
Jesus had nothing only the OT and this is what He did,
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
He didn't go into all this confused dispensationalism so why should anyone?
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
Ah because it does not Minister Grace but unnecessary argument.
So the subject of when the present dispensation of grace began is not one worthy of discussion?
Who appointed you to judge which things are worthy of discussion and which are not?
quote:
AND
Confuses the baseball fans away from,
The simplicity that is in,
CHRIST JESUS.
NEXT!
If there is any confusion on this thread concerning the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus it is your defense of those who say that "works" were required for salvation for those who lived under the law DESPITE the clear words of the Lord Jesus to the contrary:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Evidently that is not "simple" enough for you or else you just flat refuse to believe that truth.
The Apostle Paul makes it plain that God imputed righteousness to David (who lived under the law) "without works":
"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:6).
Its so simple its stupid...
Put your nogin cap on now.
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
It says HIM that sent, THE FATHER. Its much different than...
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Please correct or move on. Im done playing your,
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
This thread has nothing to do with Stam.
Just to be clear, I am not teaching that faith plus works is required for salvation. Salvation is a gift from God.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
(Ephesians 2:8-9)
But faith results in works, and works are an evidence of faith.
Jesus never taught faith without works. Your response was to just quote the verse out of context again, denying that entire passage of scripture was about how Jesus does the work He sees the Father do.
Jesus NEVER taught the children of Israel to not do what the Law commanded. He NEVER said they only had to believe in Him and not obey God's commandments.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Jerry Shugart
Advanced Member
Member # 9584
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Carol Swenson:
Jerry, you are the one trying to confuse the truth. Our Lord never taught faith without works. You have once again taken a verse out of context to make it mean what you want it to.
Jesus is NOT teaching faith without works. He is teaching that works depend on faith, and His works are of God.
Carol, you are confusing the issue, not me. The question is whether Stam was right or not when he wrote that "works" were required for salvation in regard to those who lived under the law.
By the Lord Jesus' own words we can see that all it took to be saved for those under the law was faith:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
No "work" requirement can be found in that verse. If "works" of one kind or another was required for salvation for those to whom the Lord addressed those words why did He not mention any works? And why no mention of "works" here:
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:15-16).
In fact, when the Lord Jesus was asked by those who lived under the law what "works" they must do to do the works of God the Lord Jesus answered them by saying the following:
"Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (Jn.6:29).
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Jerry, you are the one trying to confuse the truth. Our Lord never taught faith without works. You have once again taken a verse out of context to make it mean what you want it to.
Jesus is NOT teaching faith without works. He is teaching that works depend on faith, and His works are of God.
John 5:19 - 24 (NASB) 19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Jerry Shugart
Advanced Member
Member # 9584
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by WildB:
Ah because it does not Minister Grace but unnecessary argument.
So the subject of when the present dispensation of grace began is not one worthy of discussion?
Who appointed you to judge which things are worthy of discussion and which are not?
quote:
AND
Confuses the baseball fans away from,
The simplicity that is in,
CHRIST JESUS.
NEXT!
If there is any confusion on this thread concerning the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus it is your defense of those who say that "works" were required for salvation for those who lived under the law DESPITE the clear words of the Lord Jesus to the contrary:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).
Evidently that is not "simple" enough for you or else you just flat refuse to believe that truth.
The Apostle Paul makes it plain that God imputed righteousness to David (who lived under the law) "without works":
"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works" (Ro.4:6).
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:
quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodbought:
What do I mean by Mid Acts Dispensationalism?
There are different groups that people label Mid Acts Dispensationalism and I want to make it clear on who I am addressing. In this context when I say Mid Acts Dispensationalism I am referring to those who call themselves “Bereans, Mid Acts Dispensationalists, Pauline followers, Grace believers, right dividers”, among other descriptions. This movement has been around some 100 years or so and not so much known, but it is growing more and more.
There are many today who say that they are Mid Acts Dispensationalists (MAD) but their teachings hardly matches the original teaching of Mid Acts Dispensationalism so I call them Neo-MAD.
The person who is the the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism is Sir Robert Anderson (1841-1918).
James M. Gray (1852-1935), who served for thirty years as President of Moody Bible Institute and was one of the seven editors of the original Scofield Reference Bible, said the following about Anderson:
“Sir Robert Anderson is in some respects the most remarkable of current writers on religious subjects, whether we consider his personal history or the range and character of his work…To sit at the feet of a man with such knowledge, mental power, courage and native wit, who is at the same time Spirit taught, is for the true Christian one of the greatest privileges.”
Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) said that Anderson's book Human Destiny is "the most valuable contribution on the subject I have seen."
Warren Wiersbe wrote the following about Anderson:
"If you have never met Sir Robert Anderson, then you are about to embark on a thrilling voyage of discovery. If he is already one of your friends, then finding a new Anderson title, or meeting an old one, will bring joy to your heart and enlightenment to your mind."
Anderson taught that in all dispensations men are saved by grace through faith apart from works. He taught that the General Epistles (Hebrews through Jude) were written to members of the Body of Christ. Those in the Neo-MAD camp have departed from these truths.
Anderson did teach that the present "dispensation of grace" did not start until after Paul was converted and that is why his followers aquired the name "Mid Acts Dispensationalists."
I have started a thread on the very subject as to when the present dispensation of grace began and I notice that you have not entered into that discussion.
Why not?
Ah because it does not Minister Grace but unnecessary argument.
AND
Confuses the baseball fans away from,
The simplicity that is in,
CHRIST JESUS.
NEXT!
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jerry Shugart
Advanced Member
Member # 9584
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posted
quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodbought:
What do I mean by Mid Acts Dispensationalism?
There are different groups that people label Mid Acts Dispensationalism and I want to make it clear on who I am addressing. In this context when I say Mid Acts Dispensationalism I am referring to those who call themselves “Bereans, Mid Acts Dispensationalists, Pauline followers, Grace believers, right dividers”, among other descriptions. This movement has been around some 100 years or so and not so much known, but it is growing more and more.
There are many today who say that they are Mid Acts Dispensationalists (MAD) but their teachings hardly matches the original teaching of Mid Acts Dispensationalism so I call them Neo-MAD.
The person who is the the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism is Sir Robert Anderson (1841-1918).
James M. Gray (1852-1935), who served for thirty years as President of Moody Bible Institute and was one of the seven editors of the original Scofield Reference Bible, said the following about Anderson:
“Sir Robert Anderson is in some respects the most remarkable of current writers on religious subjects, whether we consider his personal history or the range and character of his work…To sit at the feet of a man with such knowledge, mental power, courage and native wit, who is at the same time Spirit taught, is for the true Christian one of the greatest privileges.”
Charles Spurgeon (1834-1892) said that Anderson's book Human Destiny is "the most valuable contribution on the subject I have seen."
Warren Wiersbe wrote the following about Anderson:
"If you have never met Sir Robert Anderson, then you are about to embark on a thrilling voyage of discovery. If he is already one of your friends, then finding a new Anderson title, or meeting an old one, will bring joy to your heart and enlightenment to your mind."
Anderson taught that in all dispensations men are saved by grace through faith apart from works. He taught that the General Epistles (Hebrews through Jude) were written to members of the Body of Christ. Those in the Neo-MAD camp have departed from these truths.
Anderson did teach that the present "dispensation of grace" did not start until after Paul was converted and that is why his followers aquired the name "Mid Acts Dispensationalists."
I have started a thread on the very subject as to when the present dispensation of grace began and I notice that you have not entered into that discussion.
Why not?
Posts: 34 | From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico | Registered: Feb 2012
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Mid Acts Dispensationalism is just a box that others put around others to keep their box looking pretty.
The men you mention in this post do not separate as you say.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
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posted
Some people are not aware of the dangers of this movement, and the purpose of this information is to share why people need to be concerned with Mid Acts Dispensationalism.
What do I mean by Mid Acts Dispensationalism?
There are different groups that people label Mid Acts Dispensationalism and I want to make it clear on who I am addressing. In this context when I say Mid Acts Dispensationalism I am referring to those who call themselves “Bereans, Mid Acts Dispensationalists, Pauline followers, Grace believers, right dividers”, among other descriptions. This movement has been around some 100 years or so and not so much known, but it is growing more and more. When examining their theology there are some dangers that need to be addressed, and not all of them have all of these exact beliefs, but for the most part most they do.
Mid Acts Dispensationalists beliefs?
There are many things concerning Mid Acts Dispensationalism beliefs and teachings to be on the look out for. The following information will be some of the basic beliefs and doctrines of those who identify themselves as Mid Acts Dispensational believers.
1. Many believe that the only true authorized English version of the Bible is the King James Bible. That means they believe that all other English translations either have translational errors or theological errors because of how they view the King James Bible. The problem with this is that there are various King James editions and most of them do not know which one they are clinging to or which one is the most accurate. Majority of those in this movement seem to give the opinion that those who do not use the King James are being corrupted with false doctrines and being led astray by the devil. (There are some who prefer other English Translations)
2. They believe that the books written by the Apostle Paul are solely for the body of Christ to live by and for doctrine. They go on to say that all other books are for the body of Christ for informative reasons but not for doctrine, which gets scary in some areas. Those of this movement word it this way, “All of the Bible is for us but not all of the Bible is written to us.” This is some crafty wording and many people have been deceived into believing un-Biblical doctrines through inaccurate ways of interpretation.
3. They believe that the books of Paul are the only books that teach salvation is by grace through faith in Christ for salvation. They believe that all of the other books of the Bible teach a works salvation, including the other books in the New Testament.
4. They believe that all other books of the Bible other than the ones Paul wrote are for the Jews and Jewish Christians. Along with that they go on to teach that the book of Hebrews, James, epistles of Peter, epistles of John, Jude, and Revelation are all books for Jewish Christians and that the information within them is dealing solely with the Great Tribulation.
5. They believe that they are to follow Paul, for Paul was the first one to preach the true gospel message for salvation in Christ by faith alone. They go on to teach that Jesus and the Apostles before Paul taught a works gospel message for salvation, and that it was not until Paul became a Christian that the body of Christ began and the message of grace was being taught.
6. They believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer for today. They believe that 1 Corinthians 13:10 teaches with the completion of the Bible the gifts are no longer needed for the body of Christ and for the world.
7. They believe the body of Christ is not to be partaking of the Lord’s Supper because that was for the Jewish Christians and is yet for the future with God’s earthly kingdom. They teach that this was not for the body of Christ and is not for us today.
8. They separate Jewish Christians from the body of Christ and make them two different groups.
9. They teach that Jewish Christians and believers from the Old Testament will be reigning on the earth through God’s kingdom program and the body of Christ will be living forever in heaven.
10. There are some who teach that if you do not hold to these teachings (Mid Acts Beliefs) you truly are not a Christian and have been deceived through Satan’s lies.
Dangers of Mid Acts Dispensationalism
When examining all of this information and putting the pieces together it is clear that this movement of itself is dangerous and some-what-cultic in theology. Some of the main leaders of this movement are Cornelius R. Stam, J. C. O’Hair, and Charles Baker. Some leaders within this movement have went to far with their exclusiveness and traditions in which they have twisted the gospel and are leading people away from knowing Jesus truly.
However, just so it is clear, there are people within this movement that could be saved and truly know Jesus Christ personally. We are just wanting to inform people concerning various dangers within this movement and that we must be very careful of the spiritual diseases that have come from those who claim to be “rightly dividing”, but in truth are “spiritually deceived”. If you have any questions on this information please contact us and we will do our best to answer your questions.
http://rootedinchrist.org/2008/01/01/be-careful-of-mid-acts-dispensationalism/
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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