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Author
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Topic: Forgiveness
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again LeRoy,
Thank you for your sincere words and caring spirit.
I am grateful that you didnt just "take off" in anger and bring a sudden end to our fellowship.
We need each other.
With love in Jesus, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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thefixer
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posted
My dear brother Daniel,
I have and will always have a deep love for you my brother. I knew in my heart that there was no difference in our understanding. The difference was in our expressions of that understanding. I also have been put into situations that I surely did not want to be in and have seen things that I feel I could have done without seeing.
I ask that from now on each of us, myself especially, seek clarification from the other when it is needed, and that we always respond to each other with love and caring hearts.
Have you ever heard it said that when in doubt about what one should do, a christian should ask, 'What would Jesus do?'? I wonder if that applies to one who is being led by His Spirit. Does not the Spirit lead us to do what Jesus would do?
May His Spirit always shine from your heart.
Your brother in Christ, LeRoy (thefixer).
Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011
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thefixer
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posted
My dear brother Daniel,
I have and will always have a deep love for you my brother. I knew in my heart that there was no difference in our understanding. The difference was in our expressions of that understanding. I also have been put into situations that I surely did not want to be in and have seen things that I feel I could have done without seeing.
I ask that from now on each of us, myself especially, seek clarification from the other when it is needed, and that we always respond to each other with love and caring hearts.
Have you ever heard it said that when in doubt about what one should do, a christian should ask, 'What would Jesus do?'? I wonder if that applies to one who is being led by His Spirit. Does not the Spirit lead us to do what Jesus would do?
May His Spirit always shine from your heart.
Your brother in Christ, LeRoy (thefixer).
Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
God bless you both so very much.
Good catch Brother Daniel. I felt the definitions in the link were pretty comprehensive, and so I shared. I agree with you Bro and again thank you for the clarity.
Amen Brother Leroy, and thank you for sharing your heart for and walk with the Master. We can truly be led by God and He can illuminate with great clarity. We will not have perfect clarity until we put on perfection.
One may be called to a pulpit, one to daily prayer for others, one to go out and share the Gospel in the streets, another to help feed and shelter the needy, and on and on. It is the same spirit but different gifts, applications, and pathways. One is not greater than or more spiritual. There are elders who are called to shepherd the flock, but they are no more important then the elderly Sister Saint who makes the coffee and shares the love of Christ with the guests. All a part of the Body.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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thefixer
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posted
My dearest brother Drew,
You are blessed and I thank you for your words. They have made me understand that I need to use more care in the words I use and on how another may understand them. It has never been or will it ever be my intention to talk down to anyone or place myself in a superior position. Yet I see that it does appears that my words make it seem that way. For this I beg forgiveness.
Might I ask you if when you say, '...we do not have 20/20 spiritual vision...' do you mean that we don't see the Spirit clearly or that we don't see with the Spirit clearly? I ask this because the experience that I have with the Spirit is very clear in both respects.
You also bring up some wonderful passages of instruction by brother Paul about the different dimensions of the Body of believers. Paul illustrates the different 'workings' of the same 'One' Spirit. This I know as Truth and because of this I stumble when communicating with another about matters of the Spirit. Jesus said that the Spirit will guide us in all truths. Is it to be that the 'truths' He guides me in are different from those He guides another in? And if they are the same, why do we have problems relating those truths to each other? Does not the fault of misunderstanding inter into us apart from the Spirit and therefore NOT of the Spirit?
My walk with the Spirit has shown me the disunity and dysfunction of His Body and I have been saddened by what I see. In this I am not alone. I share the desire of the Spirit that the 'Church' come back together while there is still time. The Spirit has shown me that Lucifer IS COMING very soon and there is much to be done. Can I do it? I seriously doubt it. I do know that the Spirit of Christ CAN!! This is what leads me to stress the things that I do.
Acts 4:32 clearly states that the believers were of 'one Heart and Mind'. I pray that it returns to what Jesus wanted from the beginning.
May the Lord gather His sheep together in one pasture.
Your brother in Christ, LeRoy (thefixer).
Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hello Brother Drew,
I did read your link on forgiveness.
The author did make a statement that I think is a bit shaky.......that being......
"Do I believe that God loves us so much that He can forgive us though we do not repent? Yes. Does this mean that He condones my actions? No" END
My response:
I would say that we should first expect Gods rebuke, chastisement for our unwillingness to repent. The bible states that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. A person who is unwilling to repent is someone who is unwilling to confess their sin, thereby, not even agreeing with God about their sin. An unrepentant heart is a heart that refuses to humble itself before God and look at sin the way that God does. There should be no expectation given of forgiveness to anyone who has refused to repent of their sin. It is a false hope.
Rebuke is also defined as.......bringing a charge against.
I believe that there are times when a stern rebuke is called for----it depends on the nature of the crime and the specific arena of offense. A lack of a stern rebuke when it is needed could make things even worse in the end.
One more note: Caretaker, I know that you did not write the link on forgiveness......so please do not receive this response as an attack on your views.
With love in Jesus, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Good Morning Brother LeRoy,
You said:
I truly pray that you don't really mean that you think becoming more 'Christ-like' takes any effort on your part. We DO NOT learn to be like Christ, it is the result of His Spirit's indwelling in us that brings about our likeness of Him.
My response:
To be clear on this matter so that there is no confusion and that you understand my position.............I believe that it is what you say and what I say........both the work of the spirit and my cooperation with that work that leads to the glorifying of God. Please understand that I am cautious(in my words) not to exalt "my cooperation" in anything that I do, but I choose to give all praise, glory and honor to the Lord for His Magnificent Love.
Believe me you, the Holy Spirit has pointed me to go in directions that I really did not want to go.........to face things that I did not desire to face. I believe that I have been learning to trust God more and more through it all.
With love in Jesus, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
God bless you both so very much.
This seems to be a pretty good analysis of forgiveness and rebuke:
Forgiveness
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
God bless both of you so very much, Leroy and Daniel, my Brothers in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Leroy you were speaking down to Daniel, as from what you feel is a position of spiritual superiority, so immersed in Christ that you instantly know when you are in error.
quote:
There has never been a moment in my personal relationship with Jesus that I haven't been completely immersed in His Spirit. From the moment Jesus entered my life I completely surrendered my complete self over to His guidance. When I have thoughts that are not okay with Him I immediately know and they evaporate. I have never had to 'become more sensitive' to Him, His Spirit is all that I am now.
Because of the horrific pain and trials you experienced early on and through your life you were a social lone wolf and homeless in Vegas. As you defended the Christians that cold day 9 years ago you had an epiphany, as dramatic as Saul on the Damascus road.
This experience has led you on a more esoteric pathway, a walk critically attuned to the inner voice of God's Spirit. There is a sense of pride in being totally attuned to God's Spirit, and a perception that you will not error in following Its guidance.
My precious Brother in Christ, have you gone from social lone wolf to spiritual lone wolf?
You have been walking with the Master for 9 years. There are those here who have been walking with the Master for half a century, that are as yielded to His Perfect Will and spiritual guidance for their lives as you are for yours.
It is His Spirit which indwells each of the Brethren, but we were not all homeless in Vegas, and we are not all on your specific journey of healing and restoration. We each have different gifts and His will for one is not His will for another. But we are One Body, and we are to be accountable to one another.
Brother Leroy we do not have 20/20 spiritual vision, for Brother Paul tells us we see through a glass darkly. We are all unified as One in Christ, but different gifts and manifestations, and ministries.
1 Cor. 12:
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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thefixer
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posted
Dear brother Daniel,
First, I left out a crucial word in requesting your forgiveness, the word 'my' should be placed before 'misunderstanding'. For the misunderstanding is not yours, it's mine. Next, I had no intention of eliciting a feeling of being 'behind' anything. I said "where you are in your relationship", with no statement of where either of us are in that relationship or how are relationships differ to each other. Did you not insert a meaning that was not there?
I truly pray that you don't really mean that you think becoming more 'Christ-like' takes any effort on your part. We DO NOT learn to be like Christ, it is the result of His Spirit's indwelling in us that brings about our likeness of Him. If this were not so it would be accomplished through 'works' by our hand and WILL amount to nothing in God's eyes. Remember those people who came to Jesus saying, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' and His response to them? They seemed to be doing what they thought Jesus would want them to be doing, and even doing it in His name, yet He said, He 'never knew' them. Why do you suppose He responded like that? They were doing what they had seen Jesus do. They were even giving credit for their deeds to Jesus. By all outward appearance they seemed to be 'Christ-like'.
Brother Daniel the failure is all mine. I failed to understand how some people will not understand what I say when I say it the way I do. It is NOT a matter of my comparing myself to anyone. If you came to see a difference between us is it not coming from your understanding? I hope that I did not fail in showing you that there IS a difference between us. I pray that you investigate deeper into that difference, because, and this I also pray, you might find something you need.
I hope that our fellowship continues, but that I will have to leave up to the Lord and you. If what I say hurts your feelings in any way I am truly sorry. If what I say convicts your heart of the failings in your relationship with Jesus, that I am and can never be sorry for.
If you look and see Jesus only in the Bible or through your eyes then you merely know 'of' Him, you do not know Him. He wants us to KNOW Him, to see Him inside of ourselves and inside each and every one of His followers. He wants to dwell in us, not through the teachings of others or through any 'understanding' of Him that we may think we have.
If you ever think that I am 'judging' you, look carefully at what I say and at where your feelings are coming from. My heart is filled with a desire that everyone receive this gift from Jesus. It will not be 'different' in you than it is in me or that it is in anyone else who accepts it. Our outward expression of His Spirit might be different but His Spirit is and always will be the same.
May His Spirit guide you.
Your brother in Christ, LeRoy (thefixer).
Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again LeRoy,
You said:
I must beg your forgiveness for misunderstanding where you are in your relationship with the Spirit of Jesus.
My response:
Am I supposed to say that I forgive you for thinking that I have a long way to go to catch up with you?
You said:
I have never had to 'become more sensitive' to Him, His Spirit is all that I am now.
My response:
Forgive me for thinking that learning Christlikeness takes time and experience.
You said:
If you would like more insight and perhaps clarity in what I am saying, please read my testimony that is posted under the title 'My Story' in the 'Praise Reports & Testimonies' section of this site.
My response:
Are you asking me to read it again because I have failed to see something that I should have seen before?
You said:
Again I ask that you forgive me, this site is a place where I felt others would be at, or close to, the same place as I am in their relationship with the Spirit.
My response:
Am I supposed to forgive you for comparing yourself with us?
You said:
May your sensitivity to the guidance of the Holy Spirit intensify.
My response:
I take it that when my sensitivity catches up with yours, you will be more comfortable fellowshipping with me?
With love in Jesus, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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thefixer
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posted
Dear brother Daniel,
I use a Strong's concordance to look up meanings of words that I need to clarify, and it has a slightly different definition. That really doesn't matter. I must beg your forgiveness for misunderstanding where you are in your relationship with the Spirit of Jesus.
There has never been a moment in my personal relationship with Jesus that I haven't been completely immersed in His Spirit. From the moment Jesus entered my life I completely surrendered my complete self over to His guidance. When I have thoughts that are not okay with Him I immediately know and they evaporate. I have never had to 'become more sensitive' to Him, His Spirit is all that I am now.
My connection with Jesus happened in a rather unorthodox way. If you would like more insight and perhaps clarity in what I am saying, please read my testimony that is posted under the title 'My Story' in the 'Praise Reports & Testimonies' section of this site.
Again I ask that you forgive me, this site is a place where I felt others would be at, or close to, the same place as I am in their relationship with the Spirit.
May your sensitivity to the guidance of the Holy Spirit intensify.
Your brother in Christ LeRoy (thefixer).
Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again LeRoy,
According to my bible dictionary rebuke means......to convict, refute, reprove.
I heard a sermon today and the preacher was talking about how God does not want any of us to take mercy for granted. I think that is one of the reasons why Jesus teaches us to rebuke. Rebuke does not easily allow for a casual attitude towards sin to develop.
I do not believe that the ability to discern between a situation where a rebuke is called for as opposed to an "overlooking" forgiveness is something that comes automatic, but is learned over time as we become more sensitive to the Holy Spirits leading.
Jesus says whom He loves He rebukes and chastens.
With love in Jesus, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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thefixer
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posted
Dear brother Daniel,
When Jesus, in Luke used the word 'Rebuke', it appears that He meant ' to bring to the attention of' the offending party. Just as He said in Matthew. Jesus wants that we first try to reconcile the problem, as shown in His instruction about going by oneself and, if that fails, with other brothers, and if that fails to the body of the Church.
Please consider what I'm about to put forth. Suppose you and I had a serious disagreement on an issue of great importance to us both. The disagreement becomes so heated that we end up in a shouting match, calling each other 'stupid, hard headed, ignorant' etc.. Do you get the picture? This creates, in both of us, a spiritual turmoil. Not good. To go on, later you find empirical evidence that clearly shows that I am wrong and you bring it to me. I accept the evidence and ask forgiveness from you. How do you think my repentance makes you feel inside? How about how it makes me feel?
When your actions, no mater what they may be, are coming from the Spirit of Jesus, no mater if you are right or wrong, you will feel no gladness in confrontation. Because of the Spirit that dwells in me, no mater what wrong (sin) you do me,you will always be my brother and I will always Love you, I will always forgive you, and I will always be faithful to you. That is the Spirit of Jesus!! Not the spirit of man.
May you always walk in the Spirit of our Savior.
Your brother in Christ, LeRoy (thefixer).
Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011
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oneinchrist
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posted
How then should we view these teachings by Jesus?
Why doesnt Jesus just say, if your brother sins against you, forgive him in these two parts of scripture.
Matthew 18:15-17
Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Luke 17:3-4
Take heed to yourselves, If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, I repent, you shall forgive him.
My thoughts:
The rebuke is for the benefit of the offender and the forgiveness benefits the one offended. Without rebuke to sin, someone could eventually transform into some kind of a monster without a moral consciousness to guide them.
Since Jesus says......if he repents, forgive him does that mean that if he does not repent we are not to forgive him. Let me tell you what I think........if the offender does not repent, we are not to personally forgive him (as God would not even forgive him) but we are to forgive him in our hearts before God holding no evil thoughts of revenge or harboring bittterness as we pray for his heart change. If we were to tie in the example that LeRoy gave about Jesus.........Jesus did not tell the offenders(outwardly)" you are forgiven", but He did make a plea to the Father (inwardly)
What do you think?
With love in Jesus, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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becauseHElives
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posted
Daniel, I was talking to my family and friends at a get together we had last week. I made this statement to the group....
There are many messages in scripture that God wants us to learn but the most important message we can learn is the message of forgiveness!
God’s forgiveness for us through Christ and our forgiveness of like kind for others.
God forgave us while we still hated Him.
Stephen forgave while the crowd was throwing the rocks…this is a Christian!
Forgiveness is not an option for a Christian; it is that dirty word people call a commandment.
Jesus said “For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses”
Pretty straight forward speaking, no double talk here.
If you are Born Again you have a new nature, the nature of the one you bear the image of…
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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thefixer
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posted
Dear brother Daniel,
I can see you have a fairly good understanding of His teachings in regards to forgiveness.
Yes, He is pretty insistent on there being NO limit on the number of times we are to forgive someone. I don't believe that Jesus puts a restriction on our responsibility to forgive. Consider what would remain in our heart if the person who sinned against us failed to seek forgiveness. Would not our spirit be stained with feelings of anger or retaliation. These are NOT things that should be in our hearts. Like I alluded to earlier about His asking God to forgive those who were killing Him, it is not written that they asked to be forgiven for their actions. Yet, in His suffering, He asked that what they were doing not be held against them.
There is a passage in scripture, I'm not sure where it is, that I have heard pastors teach their flock means that if their faith is strong enough and they ask God, 'He will give you all the desires of your heart'. I have read the words and they pretty much say just that. However, every since Jesus touched me, the only desires of my heart is to be closer to Him. I have given up my worldly, lost, miserable life to Him and in exchange He gave me His wonderfully uplifting and Loving life.
May you find all the desires of your heart in Him.
Your brother in Christ, LeRoy (thefixer).
Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011
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oneinchrist
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posted
I would like to do a short study on forgiveness.
These are some verses I found on forgiveness.
Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men their trespasses , your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came to Him and said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to 7 times?
Jesus said to him, I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to 70x7.
Luke 17:3-4
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; if he repents, forgive him.
And if he sins against you 7 times in a day, and 7 times in a day returns to you, saying, I repent, you shall forgive him.
My first thoughts:
It does not seem that Jesus puts any restrictions on the number of times that we must be willing to forgive, but it does seem that Jesus does put a condition on forgiveness--that being that the offender repents by taking responsibility for his/her actions and acknowledging his/her sin against you).
My second thoughts:
There is no way that Jesus would contradict Himself. It does not appear that Jesus advocates a blind type of forgiveness in a situation where someone has purposely sinned against you......but He does seem to be advocating that we diligently pursue reconciliation.
What are some of your thoughts?
With love in Jesus, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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