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Topic: Why suffering
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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Why Do Christians Suffer?
Why do Christians suffer? Indeed the question is often asked, "Why does a loving God allow anyone to suffer?" This tract seeks to answer these questions.
Psalm 119:67 is applicable to believer and unbeliever. It says, "Before I was afflicted I went astray..." Often God uses suffering to draw the unbeliever to Himself. When we suffer it reminds us of our own mortality. Many believers have found that they are closest to God while undergoing some sort of suffering. In verse 75 we read, "in faithfulness you have afflicted me." We can be sure that the Lord will do those things that are ultimately good and correct.
Paul the Apostle suffered greatly in his life and yet he could say, "we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope." Perseverance, character and hope are all qualities which the Christian wants. We must accept that suffering is one method the Lord uses to build these. When we endure suffering we also give strong evidence that our faith is genuine (1 Peter 1:6,7). Also see James 1:2-4.
In 2 Corinthians 1:3,4 we read, "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ... who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God." When we are going through some sort of suffering or trial, we often feel that others do not understand, but when we hear words of comfort from someone who has been through the same circumstances, it is more comforting and easier to accept.
Sometimes, suffering is a result of sin. Romans 3:23 reads, "for all have sinned and fall sort of the glory of God." It is always possible that God is chastening us for our sin. Yet there is comfort even in this because the Lord is trying to bring His children back to himself. This chastening is not evidence that God doesn't care; rather it is evidence that He does care! Hebrews 12:7 says, "Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?" In verse 11 we read, "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." Yes, sin is sometimes the reason for suffering, but we as Christians must be very careful not to accuse others of some unseen sin when they are suffering. This is what Job's counselors did. However, when we are undergoing suffering, we should examine ourselves to see if there is any unconfessed sin in our lives.
In Psalm 119:71 we read, "It was good for me to be afflicted so that I might learn your decrees." Sometimes God must lay us low to bring us back to the basics. We can learn God's ways and His word better when self has been broken. Suffering is not fun, but it does make God's word precious and real to us.
Philippians 1:29 says, "For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him." In 3:10, Paul says, "I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death...." The servant is not greater than his master. The Lord Jesus suffered and we should not be surprised when we suffer. Suffering allows us to be identified with Christ and to have fellowship with Him.
Finally, we get to the unknown reason. Job suffered greatly and at the end was restored to God, yet we see no evidence that he ever found out why he went through all those trials and tribulations. Sometimes we may suffer for reasons that will not be apparent until we reach heaven. Yet when we get there we shall surely say, "It was good for me to be afflicted."
http://www.brethrenonline.org/articles/SUFFER.HTM
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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Speaking of the Flood...
Grand Canyon Flood Evidence
The footprint trackways in the Coconino Sandstone have recently been re-examined in the light of experimental studies by Dr Leonard Brand of Loma Linda University in California. His research program involved careful surveying and detailed measurements of 82 fossilized vertebrate trackways discovered in the Coconino Sandstone along the Hermit Trail in Grand Canyon . He then observed and measured 236 experimental trackways made by living amphibians and reptiles in experimental chambers. These tracks were formed on sand beneath the water, on moist sand at the water’s edge, and on dry sand, the sand mostly sloping at an angle of 25 degrees, although some observations were made on slopes of 15deg; and 20° for comparison. Observations were also made of the underwater locomotion of five species of salamanders (amphibians) both in the laboratory and in their natural habitat, and measurements were again taken of their trackways.
A detailed statistical analysis of these data led to the conclusion, with a high degree of probability that the fossil tracks must have been made underwater . Whereas the experimental animals produce footprints under all test conditions, both up and down the 25° slopes of the laboratory ‘dunes’, all but one of the fossil trackways could only have been made by the animals in question climbing uphill. Toe imprints were generally distinct, whereas the prints of the soles were indistinct. These and other details were present in over 80% of the fossil, underwater and wet sand tracks, but less than 12% of the dry sand and damp sand tracks had any toe marks. Dry sand uphill tracks were usually just depressions, with no details. Wet sand tracks were quite different from the fossil tracks in certain features. Added to this, the observations of the locomotive behaviour of the living salamanders indicated that all spent the majority of their locomotion time walking on the bottom, underwater, rather than swimming.
Putting together all of his observations, Dr Brand thus came to the conclusion that the configurations and characteristics of the animals trackways made on the submerged sand surfaces most closely resembled the fossilized quadruped trackways of the Coconino Sandstone. Indeed, when the locomotion behaviour of the living amphibians is taken into account, the fossilized trackways can be interpreted as implying that the animals must have been entirely under water (not swimming at the surface) and moving upslope (against the current) in an attempt to get out of the water. This interpretation fits with the concept of a global Flood, which overwhelmed even four-footed reptiles and amphibians that normally spend most of their time in the water.
Not content with these initial studies, Dr Brand has continued (with the help of a colleague) to pursue this line of research. He recently published further results, which were so significant that a brief report of their work appeared in Science News and Geology Today.
His careful analysis of the fossilized trackways in the Coconino Sandstone, this time not only from the Hermit Trail in Grand Canyon but from other trails and locations, again revealed that all but one had to have been made by animals moving up cross bed slopes. Furthermore, these tracks often show that the animals were moving in one direction while their feet were pointing in a different direction. It would appear that the animals were walking in a current of water, not air. Other trackways start or stop abruptly, with no sign that the animals’ missing tracks were covered by some disturbance such as shifting sediments. It appears that these animals simply swam away from the sediment.
Because many of the tracks have characteristics that are ‘just about impossible’ to explain unless the animals were moving underwater, Dr Brand suggested that newt-like animals made the tracks while walking under water and being pushed by a current. To test his ideas, he and his colleague videotaped living newts walking through a laboratory tank with running water. All 238 trackways made by the newts had features similar to the fossilized trackways in the Coconino Sandstone, and their videotaped behaviour while making the trackways thus indicated how the animals that made the fossilized trackways might have been moving.
These additional studies confirmed the conclusions of his earlier researches. Thus, Dr Brand concluded that all his data suggest that the Coconino Sandstone fossil tracks should not be used as evidence for desert wind deposition of dry sand to form the Coconino Sandstone, but rather point to underwater deposition. These evidence from such careful experimental studies by a Flood geologist overturn the original interpretation by evolutionists of these Coconino Sandstone fossil footprints, and thus call into question their use by Young and others as an argument against the Flood.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v15/i1/flood.asp
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Robert E. Barger
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Member # 7998
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posted
God has given us an inheritance in the earth to keep and protect it. If we do not take care of the land through keeping His commandments, the land will spue us out like the people that lived on it before us who did not keep His commandments.
Leviticus|18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things:
for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Leviticus|18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the
iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her
inhabitants.
Leviticus|18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Leviticus|18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)
Leviticus|18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
Leviticus|20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
Leviticus|20:23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and
therefore I abhorred them.
Another thing, when Noah build the ark, it had never rained before on the earth and when Noah told the people that there was going to be a flood and that water was going to cover the earth, they laughted at him.
Hebrews|11:7 By faith Noah, """"being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear"""", prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
In the world today, they are fining cities on the bottom of the sea and they don't know how they got there. They were build before the flood. Once the flood came the water in the sea raised where it was once dry land. Before the flood, there was only a mist went up from the ground.
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Romans|11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all
things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Posts: 38 | From: Trafalgar, Indiana U.S.A. | Registered: Jan 2010
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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Concerning natural disasters:
Adam and Eve were created to be perfect, and to have dominion over the earth.
Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.
Everything was very good.
Then in Genesis 3:17
Cursed is the ground because of you.
We know that the shifting of the continental plates, and the venting of interior heat through volcanoes, and the regulation of temperatures through winds and tides, the circulation of chemicals and so on, are all necessary to keep the Earth healthy. These events seem like disasters to us, but they are necessary for the planet.
Now I wonder, when everything was very good, before the ground was cursed, were these disasters nonexistent because the Earth was perfect? Or were these events still natural but we had dominion to subdue the Earth so it would not be harmful to people and animals? For example, we could control the path of a hurricane so it would stay out to sea and cause no damage.
I just can't picture an earthquake in the Garden of Eden.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hello Brother Paul,
I am convinced that the suffering that we are called/appointed to endure(by taking up our cross) as followers of Jesus has much to do with the Holy Spirit teaching us humility/Christlikeness. This all would be part of Gods bigger plan of drawing more and more unbelievers into His kingdom.....saving the lost.....which is the heart of the Lord. While we experience these sufferings/trials I believe that it is very important that we learn to trust in the good intentions that the Lord has in allowing them rather than focusing on the suffering/trial itself. The temptation is there to focus too much on the suffering itself so we need to pray for each other regarding this issue so that we do not lose faith and become hopeless in the midst of them.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Brother Paul
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Member # 7959
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posted
There are many reasons for suffering, and all of them are not evil (cataclysm, trials approved of God, the pain of discipline, etc.,), though all that is evil eventually causes great suffering in one way or another. Irenaeus, the early church Bishop of Lyons who sat at the feet of Polycarp the student of John, was almost always writing apologetically, either in response to skeptics of his time, or to strengthen and equip the brethren, and in this case, pointed out how God uses the suffering and evil of this world to help us grow and develop in character as He conforms us into the image of Christ Himself, who as a man was made perfect in His suffering. Growth is often what appears to be the result of the interactions of orderly and chaotic forces. Change is often birthed on the passing away of the old. Jesus tells us that a grain of wheat can not bring forth fruit unless it falls to the ground and dies (to its grain-ness). In fact, the potential for all that the plant will become, even the bearing of fruit after its own kind, is dependent on this process, and gains the necessary mulching and nutrition it initially needs to sprout and grow from its apparently deteriorating remains. Of course in this particular reference Jesus was referring to His own death, burial, and resurrection, that had to take place in order to birth forth the Church (John 12:24).
In John 15:2 Jesus tells us, “Every branch in me that does not bear fruit He takes away, and every branch that bears fruit He prunes that it may bring forth more fruit.” As a branch, one must admit that pruning is never pleasant, but in the end retrospectively we all can see it was worth it. But this is not something new with the teaching of Christ but is first found in the oldest of books Deuteronomy and Job.
Deuteronomy 8:5 tells us that sometimes the Lord has to chasten us. David considered this a blessing (Psalm 94:12). The wise King Solomon tells us that this is because He loves us, we are His children, and just as a father chastises his child, so the Lord chastises those whom He loves (Proverbs 3:11,12). The same is true with Jesus, the Son of Man (Revelations 3:19). But this process, though grievous at the time, has it’s sure rewards (Hebrews 12:11). We truly grow in our suffering. Listen to what Job said when he was in the most grievous time of trial (Job 23:10). Job tells us, “But He knows the way that I take, when He has tested me, I will come forth as gold.”
Sometimes the afflictions He allows us to go through are to cause us to repent, like when David declares that before he was afflicted he went astray, but as a result of his unpleasant experience he could now obey the Lord (Psalm 119:67). When we get ourselves into trouble, sometimes God will use the circumstance to get our attention and teach us to depend on Him (Jonah 2:2). He literally refines us as refiner does with silver (Zechariah 13:9). A silver smith applies the heat to the silver purposely putting it into the fire and watches it very closely. The dross slowly burns off while the smith never takes His eye off his hoped for product. He knows the process is complete when he can see his image in the reflection. So it is with God and His children. Therefore our light and momentary troubles we now must endure are all helping us to achieve an eternal glory that far outweighs them all (2 Corinthians 4:17). Amen?
He will even use the terrible tribulation to this ends. There will be some who will be saved during the great tribulation and because it caused them to draw close to the Lord will “wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelations 7:14). This proves by the way that the Spirit is not taken out of the way. Even the man who has built his whole house on the solid foundation of Christ and God’s word will face tempests during that time, just as we do now. The difference is we will endure, while those who trust in the arm of flesh will build on shifting sand of self, and when the winds come and flood rushes in their house will fall (Luke 6:48; 1 Peter 1:7; 4:12).
So from all this we can see that struggle is an important part of teaching us to thrive and endure. We learn and develop many fine applicable traits like patience, longsuffering, perspective, etc.!
However, there is also a type of suffering that is the direct result of one’s sin (Deuteronomy 28-30), and other times when God allows a tragedy to use it to glorify Himself. When the Pharisees ask Jesus who was to blame, the man or his parents, Jesus replies nobody, but it was so that God’s glorious works could be seen in him (John 9:1-3), and then sometimes the people are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are also natural disasters and the consequence of the free will choices of evil people.
Now then, there are four aspects of world and personal events that we must also understand in order to gain a fuller Biblical appreciation regarding this age old concern of suffering and evil, and here they are:
1)On the one hand, God occasionally demonstrates an irresistible will! This comes out of His Sovereignty as Lord and Creator, and the idea of Divine Providence. God definitely can, and in some situations does, cause such an influence (that can be considered the cause of suffering or even evil from the finite human perspective) and that no one and/or nothing can stop it from occurring. Colossians 1:16, 17, indicates that God the Father, by His Word, the Son, and with the Holy Spirit, not only created all things and so can do with them as He pleases, but also that all things (which includes the entire Universe and all in it) are sustained and kept in order by Him. Before He imposed lawfulness into the chaos, darkness was on the face of the deep, and at first the matter of the Universe was without form and was void (in turmoil).
2)We also know that God can, and in some cases does, control and use natural events in the out-working of His will (Deuteronomy 11:17; James 5:17). Sometimes these are not pleasant to humans who are effected by these occurrences, and though most often they are a part of Judgment or a warning of something much worse, sometimes they actually bless. Just remember that God causes the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust alike, but so it is with the thunder and the lightening!
Remember when Jesus calmed the tempestuous sea (Luke 8:23-25)? Can tempests be considered evil since sometimes people die? Do they cause suffering? Of course they do...just look at the recent tsunamis and earthquakes. But as disciples in the very presence of the Creator incarnate, was the tempest they were in really the important issue that they should have been concerned with? Jesus seemed more concerned that some lacked faith? So what if this tempest ended their earthly existence! In Messiah (Christ) life is much more than our momentary brief stay here, it comprises eternity! The saved are actually better off. The unsaved should grieve because their names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life. The children of God who got angry with Him obviously still lacked the type of faith exemplified by Shadrach, Mesach, and Abednego. They needed to know that though their God could deliver them, that even if He chose not to, what He would do, actually would be what was best, and that in the long run, if they really trusted in Him, they would realize this ultimately would have been the choice they really preferred (His will being done). When the Lord says trust in me and I will give you the desires of your heart, He is saying that knowing that if they are truly trusting in Him, their desire will be for His will to be done and not their own.
That is why it is written that he who seeks to save his life will lose it, but he who is willing to lose his life for the Lord’s sake shall surely save it! I mean in the Lazareth incident what did they have to worry about? They were there with the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of the living God! They saw Him physically resuscitate the dead on a number of occasions! They had full confidence in a glorious afterlife! They did not merely hope in one, they absolutely knew there was one!
During the storm on the sea of Gallilee the outward appearance of their circumstance served only to take their focus off of the reality that lay asleep next to them in the boat. They forgot that God is in control of the bigger picture. Eternal life, not death, is the real issue (Romans 6:23). The appearance of outward circumstances are irrelevant from the faith perspective. In fact sometimes they are even deceiving. Remember when Abraham and Isaac left their servant to ascend Mt. Moriah? Abraham knew he was going there to slay the boy, but tells the servant to wait there until “we” return!?! In faith, Abraham knew something we may not truly realize. God had already promised that through Isaac the chosen seed would come (Genesis 3:15). Isaac was the child of promise who would eventually bear this precious seed! Would God allow this slaying to countermand His own promise? Well even if He did Abraham was sure God had to have something in mind, because Abraham believed God (not just believed in God)! Resurrection perhaps? Who knows? However, Abraham had genuine faith and so, staggered not at the promise of God. He trusted that God’s will was best, and therefore even if the Lord was going to allow Abraham to slay the boy, Abraham would have surely slain him, out of the fullness of his faith. Would we then judge God? God forbid!
Now God has said, and shown over and over, that He loves us. So when at the crossroads, will we believe Him or not? Will we place our trust in Him or not? Now I did not ask, do we believe “in” Him, but will we believe Him? Like father Abraham! Only this is the trust that equals a truly effectual faith.
Remember when Peter was urged out of the boat by Jesus and actually walked on the water? As long as He was focused on the Lord, full of faith, all was well, but as soon as He took His eyes off of Jesus, and let the appearance of his circumstances govern His perception (the waves and fierce winds), His faith wavered and he began to sink. But even then, when in the midst of his despair and fear, he called out to the Lord, and the Lord stretched out His arm and saved Him! Man! Thanks be to God for those stretched out arms!
Other examples of God’s Sovereign providence in natural circumstance can be seen in the plagues of Exodus, the destruction of Jerusalem at the hand of Nebuchednezzar, the deaths of Ananias and Saphira, and so on. Oh yes, God can and does work His causative will, and can and does use political forces, natural disaster, and other things to work out His over-all plan. But sometimes it is just the outcome of natural or choice motivated trends. Sometimes what appears to be innocent people get hurt or killed, but who knows what He is saving them from or for? His ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts! So even when He brings a judgment or a disaster to warn of coming judgment, is He unjust? I think not!
3)A second aspect that we see in world and personal events is called God’s permissive will. This is when God has not ordained or caused a certain thing or event but allows it to happen, and then having foreknown that it would, works it all together for the good of those who love Him. Or sometimes He allows it to teach us. Or uses it to demonstrate worthiness of an inevitable judgment. For example, God never willed or ordained polygamy, but He allowed it in such a way that in the cases of Abraham and Jacob He worked out the coming of Messiah through which the maximum number of souls would be saved. However, it likewise led to the very political situations we see everyday in the press, regarding the Middle East , that will eventually lead to the return of Christ, and the judgment of the enemies of God, throughout history, so that justice will truly have been served.
4)God also has created beings with free will (certain orders of angels and mankind), and in His foreknowing takes into account, all the consequences of all those actions and choices and somehow works them all in. How can this be save that He is God? After all, about 75% or more of all pain and suffering on this planet is caused by man’s own fallen nature and the choices he makes or has made. In the beginning, God gave man dominion over the Earth, and by the beguilement of Eve and the disobedience of Adam (which was not God’s will for them), the dominion of the realm was passed over to Satan and his adversarial hosts. Sin, sickness, and death, came into the world through Satan, and were not part of God’s original intent. But they had been given free will. So in order for God to redeem man and the planet, while not violating the free volitional choices of His creature, i.e., man, whom He loved, He had to come and Himself serve for our sins (because we were/are all utterly incapable) having taken on the nature of man, so we could be freed from the curse, and once again become children of God. So then, people can make many bad choices that bring inevitable harm to self and others (Romans 8:19-21), thus ourselves causing most of the suffering and evil, but those who will trust God rest secure no matter what happens, even if they perish (Romans 8:30,31; 1 Corinthians 9-10)!
5)Finally there is the matter of natural cause and effect consequence. These are not God’s fault either, neither will He intervene, and it is not the choice of any evil, ill willed, or shortsighted persons. The Earth was made perfect for life as we know it, but in order to maintain the sensitive balance of all forces at work here, and provide the maximum benefit to most, the Earth goes through various changes, i.e., rains, air pressure variances, platelet shifts, volcanic eruptions, etc.! Now these naturally occur, but somehow man loves to build cities over fault lines, and form villages at the feet of active volcanoes, etc., and then wants to blame God when these natural pressures and changes express themselves. If volcanoes and earthquakes did not occur, I venture to guess this planet would have exploded eons ago. Why should God be seen as the culprit? Will people scream, “why God, why did you do this?”, when southern California splits and sinks into the ocean? When global warming increases to where the water levels rise 100 feet will they say…”Why didn’t you stop this God?” The warning signs are screaming loud enough, we have the power to effect change, but we are, as always, blind and deaf until the water is rising up around our house! Some things just happen! Remember the story of the tower that had fallen on a man and the Pharisees trying to trap Jesus asked, “Who’s fault was it, this man’s sins, or the sins of his parents that caused the Tower to fall and kill him?” And Jesus replied, "Neither, the Tower just fell on Him!” Sometimes the tower just falls, the poor man was just in the wrong place at the wrong time!
Now yes, God could hyper-Calvanistically control every little detail and word and event through all time, but then we would all just be puppets or robots, and how would He then be just in judging anyone who merely, irresistibly, did what He had manipulated them, or programmed them to do? See the fatalism in this? No! Free will and providence are a finally orchestrated marriage in God’s plan. This is the emphasis the earliest church fathers placed as taught and so I give it to you beloved. Remeber, even the evil can be used by God to achieve His goals, for God works all things (even evil and suffering) together for the good of those who love Him. Thanks be to God and may His blessing ever be upon us all.
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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