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Author
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Topic: Anti-Christ and the Church
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
My dear brothers and sisters in Christ. The Lord bless you and keep you and cause His countenance to shine on you, and lift upo His face toward you and be gracious to you and give you His peace...
In light of this thread I would like to request you all listen to these two teachings on the tribulation and the church by Greek Scholar and Apologist Dr. Walter Martin at:
http://www.waltermartin.com/realaudio.html
Thanks, pray first for the Lord to speak to you here and then after actually listening to Pt I and Pt II, share what you thought...
The Lord bless you,
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
quote:
I think many books of the bible were left out on purpose by the “Powers-that-be”.
There are many stories in the world concerning events that simply aren’t in the Holy Bible.
I feel that the Holy Spirit ministers to our spirit and soul – telling us what is right and wrong – we just have to listen.
I know many people will disagree with what I just said – saying, “That isn’t scriptural.”
God speaks to man still – it’s just that most of us are too distracted by life to notice.
Amen MentorsRiddle ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) I agree
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Hi, MentorsRiddle, you wrote quote:
I think many books of the bible were left out on purpose by the “Powers-that-be”.
The process was probably not that "on purpose" as you surmise. In the days before airplanes and telegraphs, the churches of God were scattered in many parts of the Mediterranean world, each possessing some scripture letters/gospels, most of them initially orally passed on, until too many variant "scripture" "books" were eventually used in the many churches, so the bishops of north Africa and Syria and Constantinople and more, held a meeting to "purge" and "make uniform" the writings used by the many outlying churches. As a result, some books were eliminated as either being too local or not extant and distributed enough, while others were compared for similarities and the best gospel manuscripts were retained and agreed-upon, and those we have today.
So, MentorsRiddle, you wrote quote:
I think many books of the bible were left out on purpose by the “Powers-that-be”.
The process was probably benign and Holy Spirit-inspired. It was time to select what was good and useful before it all got out of hand.
love, Eden
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Brother Paul
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Member # 7959
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posted
Two excellent responses. Both full of valuable insight. And yes many of the four schools (pre-, mid-, post- and ammillennial) all connect the dots a little differently and all base their view on Scripture, but what can we say about this witness I have considered?
Did the Bishops that the Apostles themselves taught have it all wrong? Did the Apostles not have the truth of this revealed to them yet, and it was not until 18 centuries later that the Church finally got it right?
All these Bishops all recieved the same interpretation even though in totaly different areas and from different Apostles. Hmmm!
Carol...I find the interpretation of Revelation 19 very compelling though and will pray and meditate and study this more from the various views and if God be willing and I am incorrect I always prefer to be in the truth. May the Spirit lead and guide me.
Thanks Lord for giving the family so much wisdom and I pray others will join in...
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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TB125
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Member # 2450
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posted
Trying to clearly see the various events that are predicted in the Bible to be associated with the return of Jesus is futile. We are not given enough of the details regarding these events to clearly see their relationships to each other and the time line for their happening in the world.
The process of viewing these various events is like that of viewing various images in a picture puzzle that one is trying to put together. It may be possible to connect the pieces of the frame. And the images of some of the events can be put together, but the various images cannot be connected to the frame or to each other in any way that will give the viewer or those who are seeking to assemble a picture of the events a completely clear picture of Jesus' return.
We can be sure that Jesus is going to return. And we can understand that this event will probably involve different divine operations. including those described as a "rapture" and others described as a period of "tribulation" and others that include "resurrections" and others that include "judgments" and others that include "kingdom" and "authority" and some that will be for the "church" and others that will be God's people of "the Jews". But we can't put the images of these various events together to complete the picture of Jesus' return. I don't think that Jesus intended for us to do so. He only wants us to be ready to welcome him back as his faithful stewards. Citing various historic teachings of various Christian teachers and related verses of Scripture will not do anything to enable any of us to put all of the pieces of these images together. What we need to do is to encourage each other to be "ready" in our teachings and postings and witnessing as we proclaim the "good news" that Jesus is coming back. "Maranatha".
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Hi Paul
I'm not sure what you are asking here, but I believe in a pre-trib Rapture.
The Rapture vs. The Glorious Appearing
Where is the Church found in each event?
At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His Church. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess 4:14-17)
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus comes WITH His Church. (Zech 14:5, Col 3:4, Jude 14, Rev 19:14)
Where does Jesus appear in each event?
At the Rapture, Christians are caught up to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18)
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus' feet touch the earth (Zech 14:4, Rev:19:11-21)
Who is taken and who is left behind?
At the Rapture, Christians are taken first and unbelievers are left behind. (1 Thess 4:13-18)
At the Glorious Appearing, the wicked are taken first, but the righteous (the tribulation saints) are left behind. (Matt 13:28-30)
What will Jesus do at each event?
At the Rapture, Jesus will gather His Bride, the Church, unto Himself in preparation of the Marriage of the Lamb. (Rev. 19:6-9)
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will execute judgment on the earth and establish His Kingdom. (Zech 14:3-4, Jude 14-15, Rev 19:11-21)
When does the Marriage of the Lamb take place?
The Marriage of the Lamb takes place in Heaven AFTER the Rapture of the Church. (Revelation 19:6-9)
War on earth comes AFTER the Marriage of the Lamb at the Glorious Appearing when the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lays the smackdown on evil! (Revelation 19:11-21)
How long will each event be?
The Rapture will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (Blink. It's over!). (1 Cor 15:52)
The Glorious Appearing will be a slow coming. Everyone will see Jesus coming with great power and great glory! (Zech 12:10, Matt 24:30, Rev 1:7)
Who will see Jesus at each event?
At the Rapture, only those who are looking for Him (Christians) will see Him. (1 John 3:2, 1 Cor 15:52)
At the Glorious Appearing, every eye will see Him and those who have rejected Him will wail.(Rev. 1:7)
Will Jesus shout?
At the Rapture, Jesus will descend from Heaven with a shout (calling for the saints at the resurrection). (1 Thess 4:16)
At the Glorious Appearing, no shout is mentioned, although the Lord does slay the wicked with the sword of His mouth. (Rev. 19:11-21)
Will there be a resurrection at each?
At the Rapture, a resurrection will take place. (1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor 15:51-54)
At the Glorious Appearing, there is no resurrection spoken of. (Zech. 12:10, Zech.14:4-5, Rev 1:7, 19:11-21)
What about the timing of each event?
The Rapture can happen at any time...maybe even now which is why we are to be WATCHING for the return of Jesus Christ! (Rev 3:3, 1 Thess 5:4-6)
The Glorious Appearing will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. (Dan 9:24-27, Matt 24:29-30, 2 Thess 2:3-8)
What role will the angels of Heaven have?
At the Rapture, no angels are sent to gather the Church.
At the Glorious Appearing, angels will be sent to gather people together for judgment. (Matt 13:39, 41 & 49, Matt. 24:31, Matt. 25:31, 2 Thess 1:7-10)
What about the resurrected bodies?
At the Rapture, those who died in Christ will return with Jesus to recover their resurrected bodies. (1 Thess 4:14-16)
At the Glorious Appearing, Christians will return with Jesus already in their resurrected bodies riding on white horses. (Rev 19:11-21)
White horse for Jesus or no white horse for Jesus?
At the Rapture, Jesus doesn't return riding a white horse.
At the Glorious Appearing, Jesus will return riding a white horse. (Rev 19:11)
What is the message each event will bring for mankind?
The Rapture will bring with it a message of hope and comfort. (1 Thess 4:18, Titus 2:13, 1 John 3:3)
The Glorious Appearing will bring with it a message of judgment. (Joel 3:12-16, Mal 4:5, Rev 19:11-21)
http://www.raptureforums.com/Rapture/raptureversuscoming.cfm
I believe millions of people will give their lives to Jesus as their Lord and Savior during the tribulation, and these will be persecuted by the Antichrist and his government.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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MentorsRiddle
Advanced Member
Member # 2108
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posted
I think many books of the bible were left out on purpose by the “Powers-that-be”.
There are many stories in the world concerning events that simply aren’t in the Holy Bible.
I feel that the Holy Spirit ministers to our spirit and soul – telling us what is right and wrong – we just have to listen.
I know many people will disagree with what I just said – saying, “That isn’t scriptural.”
God speaks to man still – it’s just that most of us are too distracted by life to notice.
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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.
Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003
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Brother Paul
Advanced Member
Member # 7959
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posted
Having posted this on another thread, I was wondering what others may say...
Again, this is not to take the place of Scripture but serves as a mighty witness as to what the Bishops appointed by the Apostles were taught regarding these things and what they also taught thier disciples...how does this compare to the pre-trib view (remember this was the only view passed on so were the Apostles in error?).
Please comment....
Didache (Teaching of the Twelve) is a treatise written by some unknown author from around 75 A.D. Though not Scripture was read in the Churches of the 1st two centuries
"For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; and because iniquity aboundeth they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world. Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; frst the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead - not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him; then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven."
Justin Martyr, 150 A.D., Dialogue with Trypho,
"O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and cruciÞed; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have þed for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;"
Iraneaus, Against Heresies, 160 A.D.
"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings." It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord."
Tertullian, On the Ressurection of the Flesh, 185 A.D.
"In the Revelation of John, again, the order of these times is spread out to view, which 'the souls of the martyrs' are taught to wait for beneath the altar, whilst they earnestly pray to be avenged and judged: (taught, I say, to wait), in order that the world may first drink to the dregs the plagues that await it out of the vials of the angels, and that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God
Hippolytus, Dogmatic and Historic Treatise on Christ and the Anti-Christ, 225 A.D.,
"Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (3 1/2 years) during which the tyrant (Anti-Christ) is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains, possessed of no other defense than the two wings of the great eagle, that is to say, the faith of Jesus Christ, who, in stretching forth His holy hands on the holy tree, unfolded two wings, the right and the left, and called to Him all who believed upon Him, and covered them as a hen her chickens."
"For this is meant by the little horn that grows up. He, being elated in heart, begins to exalt himself, and to glorify himself as God, persecuting the saints and blaspheming Christ
Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, 258 A.D.
"For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of afliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist draws near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..."
Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau, 270 A.D.
"He shut the door upon him," it is said, that is, he forbade and restrained his seducing (Satan's) those who belong to Christ. Moreover, he put a seal upon him, because it is hidden who belong to the side of the devil, and who to that of Christ. For we know not of those who seem to stand whether they shall not fall, and of those who are down it is uncertain whether they may rise. Moreover, that he says that he is bound and shut up, that he may not seduce the nations, the nations signify the Church, seeing that of them it itself is formed, and which being seduced, he previously held until, he says, the thousand years should be completed, that is, what is left of the sixth day, to wit, of the sixth age, which subsists for a thousand years; after this he must be loosed for a little season. The little season signifies three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself trader Anti-christ against the Church. Finally, he says, after that the devil shall be loosed, and will seduce the nations in the whole world, and will entice war against the Church, the number of whose foes shall be as the sand of the sea.
This view continues until the Pseudo-Ephraem of the 4th Century appears...before John Darby in the 19th century, no one believed or taught any such notion as a two-part Second Coming or a Pre-Trib rapture even up to and after the reformation...the wrath from which we are spared is the Lord's Wrath (for we will be with Him), not the persecution of the Anti-Christ! Beloved keep your wicks trimmed and your oil full! We all believe in a rapture (which occurs as the first ressurection), the question is when not if... think on these things and prepare the children, for the time draweth nigh. The sign of the Son of man in the clouds is the rapture time and is the first resurrection and there is nothing to separate it from His touching down on the mount of Olives or says that He returns to heaven...Heaven is filled with a great mixed multitude of sould who were martyred for not taking the mark of the beast...I cannot find a partial advent and then a temporary return to heaven anywhere in the Scritpures. Can you? Amen, maranatha Lord...give us understanding and if I am in error please lead in your righteousness by your Spirit to the truth. Amen.
with love in Him
Brother Paul
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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