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Topic: When is Killing justified
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
But I think it is good to remember the sacrifice of men and women who go to battle on behalf of our freedom and safety.
Absolutely.
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botham
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Carol, please stay on the soapbox--each saint has a unique perspective for the discussion. For some of the topics, and 'should Christians kill' is definitely one of them, I also question if there is anything edifying in it whatsoever. But I think it is good to remember the sacrifice of men and women who go to battle on behalf of our freedom and safety.
Your comments help keep people like myself focused on our First Love. Glory to The Lamb of God Forever and Ever. God bless, Botham
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Carol Swenson
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Let's be prayer warriors. Then if God calls us to do something specific, we can obey knowing He will be victorious. But to think too much about the evil in the world, to brood about it, filling ourselves with wrath and a lust for vengeance - this is contrary to His Will, and will achieve no good purpose. Rather, it will lead us into temptation and deliver us to evil. Cause us to sin. Pray. Pray always.
Well, of course you know all this already...sorry for the soapbox. I'm putting it away now...
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botham
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Thank you Carol--this post helps a lot. If my impressions are correct, it is not so much the specific points regarding pacifism or the necessary response by law enforcement to the realities of deadly criminals. It is an aversion to the discussion itself based on your notion that to enter in would be to somehow validate evil as being worthy of serious debate.
Focus should be on our Lord and Savior who demonstrated the Perfect response to satan's influences in the world. Amen
God has evidently burdened your heart to keep the focus where it should be, on Jesus Christ. When I requested comments on your view as to the very real necessity of killing others to preserve freedom, it was not a taunt. I actually thought it might be a good discussion since these kinds of realities are not abstractions but all too tangible to the families receiving their children home from Afghanistan in caskets.
Thanks again for the emphasis on Peace, Love, Courage, and The Cross. God bless, Botham
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Carol Swenson
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Botham, beloved saint,
When I become angry at someone, I usually find myself wondering how Jesus was able to go through life without sin. How could He forgive from the cross? They mocked Him, spit on Him, beat Him half to death, and crucified Him, yet He forgave them.
Our Lord Jesus Christ could have been born as a king, or a priest, or a wealthy man, but He chose to be born in a Bethlehem stable as the Lamb of God. He could have appeared out of Heaven as the Messiah, King of Kings, a warrior King, but He came instead as the suffering servant. (I know the future is different, but that's another topic).
I don’t imagine that all of the Roman soldiers were honorable men. No, I imagine that the majority of them were common and crude. Vile profanities and drunkenness. Violators of women and children. Abusive bullies. Sadistic mockers. Liars, thieves, and cheaters. Vulgar.
Jesus grew up in a place where the past king had ordered that all the male babies in an entire town be slaughtered. No legal recourse there; no compensation. And the present king of His people was an adulterer, not one who loved God. Some of the Jews were tax collectors who cheated their own people. There were men publicly nailed to crosses and left hanging to die. Sick and maimed people were lying in the dirt street, begging. The religious leaders were pompous and oppressive. Through His childhood, His adolescence, His twenties, He witnessed things vile and cruel and blasphemous.
Yet He never once sinned in thought, word, or deed.
During His ministry, He could have easily struck down the Romans, or at least spoken out against them. But He ministered to the poor and sick instead. He taught about the Kingdom of God.
Jesus could easily have avoided being arrested, but He stayed in Gethsemane and waited for Judas and “a large crowd with swords and clubs, who came from the chief priests and elders of the people.”
And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? (Matthew 26:51-53 NASB)
We are to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile, and be harmless as doves.
Speaking to Pilate,
Jesus answered, “My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world.” (John 18:36 NLT).
Paul tells us,
And now, dear brothers and sisters, one final thing. Fix your thoughts on what is true, and honorable, and right, and pure, and lovely, and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise. (Philippians 4:8 NLT)
and
When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. (Galatians 5:19-23 NLT)
Botham, we need to turn our eyes away from the evil one and his works and focus on Christ. If we contemplate evil, it will take root in our hearts. Today we may feel self-righteous and hate what is wrong; tomorrow that hate consumes us and destroys our walk with the Lord.
Ever since Cain killed Able there has been the question of “what do we do about evil?” I believe the only good answer is look to God, do good for others, and tell them about our Lord Jesus Christ. This world is not our home; we should live by Kingdom values as did our Lord.
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botham
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Thanks Carol--I don't understand your post as it relates to this present world--killers in the streets, child sexually exploited, suicide bombers, genocide, and so on. My question, if you care to answer in your own words based of course on your knowledge and understanding of scripture, is what should the actual, tangible, real(I think that all along you have my point) response be to such exigencies.
Like it or not we live in this world. Your scriptures do speak to our spiritual mindset, being not of the world, and I am in agreement that this should be the dominant aspect of our nature. But I am asking people to comment on the realities before us, and they have visited us in our backyeard and 9/11. What should we do in these very real instances?
Your scripture references will, God be praised, fulfill their Eternal meaning to the last Word in the fulness of tiem, but this very day children and other people will die at the hands of evil people. What would you do if it was in your hands to help? I am positive that you would feed the hungry and certain that you do in some manner. Real food for real hunger! Sometimes it takes real bullets for real safety.
God bless, Botham
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Carol Swenson
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Will we choose Jesus Barabbas and his sword or will we choose this swordless preacher from Galilee, this Jesus of Nazareth? We choose Jesus Barabbas to save us. We trust in military might and stealth bombers and economic power. We choose the powers of the world rather than the powers of God. We do not really want Jesus to come to town on a donkey and die on a cross of shame.
We choose Jesus Barabbas to save us. Jesus Barabbas uses war to fight for peace. Jesus Barabbas defines himself in national/political allegiances and then uses his religion to support his patriotic views. Jesus Barabbas is not soft on Rome, soft on crime or soft on lawbreakers. The freedom fighter kills them with a sword so that he and his nation can be free and have peace. If Jesus Barabbas had access to bombs and guns and planes, he would have used them to fight and destroy the enemy Rome so his country would be free and at peace.
Pilate asks them to choose between allegiance to their nation proclaimed by Jesus Barabbas and allegiance to their God proclaimed by Jesus of Nazareth. Given the same choice, Jesus, of course, would have chosen to spare Barabbas, too, but not because of Jesus’ allegiance to the nation of Israel. Jesus would have chosen to spare Jesus Barabbas because of Jesus’ allegiance to Divine Graciousness.
http://www.vbc-va.org/sermons/documents/08-03-16.doc
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Eden
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hello, becauseHElives, greetings in the Lord ...
Philippians 1:22-24 (King James Version)
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labor: yet what I shall choose I don't know.
23 For I am in a strait to decide between the two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better.
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
becauseHelives, if God had to decide between a son of Belial low-life and you, God would rather have the Belial low-life die.
And if you think that by your pacifist act you "gain a brother to Christianity", there is absolutely no guarantee of that; in most killing cases it all goes so fast that you won't have any time to preach. He won't even know what religion you are, nor does he give a toot about that. And then what? You are dead, for what?
Philippians 1
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Let the low-life die. Who knows, perhaps God is using you to cause him to die by the sword since he lived by the sword. Get your sharpening stone out, beloved of God.
love, Eden the merchant of Chilmad
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botham
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Because Helives--The scripture about seeking to save one's life and losing it refers, as I see it to end times. I believe that we will go through the tribulation. I know that all scripture is supposed to be equal but I usually go to the words of Jesus for my final decisions as to interpetation whenever possible. Jesus Christ never refers to believers being swept away before the tribulation--just the opposite. So I think the scripture refers to Christians who renounce their faith to save their lives, thereby losing their eternal life and maybe worse.
The freedom we all have to post on the site has been bought with blood. I would be very interested to hear the views of pacifists in their own words. What kind of a world would there be if Hitler was not defeated. It required the killing of the enemy.
So the scriptures used are not referring to the right of countries and cities to defend against enemies and criminals, they refer to other instances. It is paradoxically superior to turn the other cheek as a Christian because the power of forgiveness and Christ's love and ways are manifest to the perpetrator of harm. Striking back just makes the situation worse for all involved. But it is incorrect to use scripture to insinuate that God would have a country unilaterally disarm or police to let criminals run wild in the streets.
I think that many scriptures referring to God's protections and justice speak to the ultimate resolution of all things. Every last tittle will be paid--nothing has gone unnoticed by God.
Yes, we need to be prepared to die for our faith and I think that day is not too distant. These scriptures prepare us for this. And if that is the sentiment of the posts, I agree. But if you mean that we should not resist evil against our families with lethal force if necessary, I disagree. I hope you do not think I am presumptuous to think that you would fight to the death if someone tried to kill your family members. God bless, Botham
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Eden
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becauseHElives, fight the good fight! You are worth more to God alive than dead.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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Psalm 94:23
He has brought back their wickedness upon them And will destroy them in their evil; The LORD our God will destroy them.
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becauseHElives
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Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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becauseHElives wrote quote:
But the dispensation of Grace is to show this lost world the long-suffering and mercy Yahweh has for lost sinners.
And he quoted:
Romans 8:36
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
It is one thing to be killed in the process of preaching and evangelizing in environments initially hostile to the gospel.
It's another to be confronted with a killer in front of your neighborhood 7-eleven store, let's say, for example, especially when your wife and two young children are there with you.
Evangelization can be dangerous business and its consequences are know and can be accepted beforehand, as in, "it is possible that I will be killed today". A person accepts that likelihood beforehand and there is "cause". But there is "no such cause" if you are just going to the 7-eleven store to get a gallon of milk.
love, Eden
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botham
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Interesting posts about a very serious topic--there are pacifists that would unilaterally disarm the free democtratic nations. They are in the USA, Canada, United Kingdom, and the European Union.
The question arises as to what they believe would happen as aggressors war against us and occupy our land. The Romans occupied most of the known world when Jesus Christ walked the earth and we know well how they kept law and order. Our Father in Heaven turned their harsh intimidations and injustices on their head with the single most Holy and important event in all Eternity, The Cross of Redemption.
But pacifists are generally decidedly left of center politically and ideologically speaking, at least according to the traditional understanding of these positions. It amazes me that liberals must have more faith in positive final outcomes if we simply lay down our arms in the face of evil. What do they base their faith on?
I am convinced that none of we posters would be posting anything of this nature had the Natzis or expansionist Marxists prevailed on this planet. We would be worshipping the State and all our discussions would be underground. So, brave patriots had to die and kill the aggressors to preserve our freedoms.
Peter carried a sword and there's a man with a severed ear, subsequently healed, to attest to this. We do war against principalities and powers but when nations forsake the God of Creation these principalites and powers are allowed to influence the carnal political world and wars result. Until the knees of nations bow to The Lord Jesus Christ, there will be war and people will die at the hands of others.
I hope it is not heretical to suggest that some posters comment in their own language, using a few well chosen scriptures. A barrage of scriptures sometimes feels like getting pounded on the head with a huge family biblle. What do YOU think, based on scripture. I know, I know, it wouldn't hurt me to actually use scripture now and then. God bless, Botham
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
God is not a Pacifist.
No He is not…and when the dispensation of Grace is over. Yahweh will send Yahshua to avenge all those that have been persecuted for the cause of the Gospel.
But the dispensation of Grace is to show this lost world the long-suffering and mercy Yahweh has for lost sinners.
Romans 8
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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botham
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Interesting posts about a very serious topic--there are pacifists that would unilaterally disarm the free democtratic nations. They are in the USA, Canada, United Kingdom, and the European Union.
The question arises as to what they believe would happen as aggressors war against us and occupy our land. The Romans occupied most of the known world when Jesus Christ walked the earth and we know well how they kept law and order. Our Father in Heaven used this same harshness to bring about the most Holy event that ever occurred
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Carol Swenson
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The Beatitudes Mattew 5:1
"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice,
for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
Blessed are you when men reproach you, and persecute you, and speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you, for my sake.
Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
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becauseHElives
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Eden,that was under the Old Covenant, The New Covenant is a covenant of love and forgiveness....
a better covenant
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Romans 12
14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Eden, how do these verses fit what you said?
quote:
Offensive killing is wrong; defensive killing is Biblical and justified, like David going after the men who pillaged Ziklag and took his family.
so did the martyr's die uselessly....from your point of view it sound like they should have defended themselves?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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becauseHELives wrote quote:
The Christian that takes a life, is no different that the Muslim that kills in the name of Allah.
The Christian would be just as bad as the muslim if the Christian forces the "infidels" to be converted to Christianity at the point of a gun.
Offensive killing is wrong; defensive killing is Biblical and justified, like David going after the men who pillaged Ziklag and took his family.
God is not a Pacifist.
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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Eden, Yahweh wants us to trust Him in all things, He want us not to trust our flesh at all...(what we can do.) what we do without calling on Him is filthy rags, the work of our flesh.
WildB, I can't think of a better place or way to die than in the House of Yahweh! Let the shooters come, I am ready to meet my Lord.
The Christian that takes a life, is no different than the Muslim that kills in the name of Allah.
If anyone here think killing is ever justified because of the evil others do, they need to go to Washington and clean house. Otherwise you are just hypocritical in your beliefs.
WildB, Before you quote 1 verse out of Romans 13 read and understand chapter 12.
WildB, you have to be very careful how you read the scriptures…..Romans 13 not properly understood would mean people that resisted Hitler in Germany during WW2 shall receive to themselves damnation.
The only rulers the Child of Yahweh are obligated to obey or righteous rulers, men that obey the Law of Yahweh.
Now let us read the last 8 verses of Romans 12
14Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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In becauseHElives' dream, he first saw 3 men coming up the driveway with guns, and becauseHElives got his gun from the closet and shot them dead in the dream.
Then the dream immediately began to replay, but this time 100 men with guns were coming up the driveway, and that made becauseHElives cry out to Yahweh for help.
In the first dream, I would also shoot the 3 dead, but 100 men with guns is too many shoot dead without getting shot myself, so then it's time to cry to Yahweh. It's basic math: I can shoot 3 dead (bam, bam, bam), but all 100. So with a 100 men, it is better to call on Yahweh.
love, Eden
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WildB
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Neh.4
[17] They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon.
With all the church shootings in the past few years I would have no problem stopping someone that was hell bent on murdering others.
Manny churches now have certain people that are well trained and ready to repel/stop such attacks.
Rom.13
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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botham ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
Yahshua said… My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Let me relate a dream a friend had that speaks to this issue…..
Asleep one night I was awaken by a noise out my bedroom window. I went to see what the disturbance was and saw 3 men with guns coming up my driveway. I raised the window and warned them to stop, they kept coming. I went to my closet and got my gun went back called out a warning again for them to leave. They began to fire at me and I shot them dead……
Immediately the dream started over….
Asleep one night I was awaken by a noise out my bedroom window. I went to see what the disturbance was and saw 100 men with guns coming up my driveway…. I immediately cried out Yahweh help me.
Then Yahweh woke me from the dream and asks me why you didn’t call me the first time!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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botham
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Thank you Because He Lives--there is a difference between an individual taking a life and the taking of life by those who are protecting the freedom of a country, city or town. Are you saying that all killing is wrong period, as in pacifism?
There are religious sects that will not go to war for their country. They enjoy the freedom from tyrany that was paid for by the blood of young soldiers and the protection from criminals by police who daily put their lives on the line.
This seems hypocritical but these same soldiers and police officers will attest that it is for this very reason that they were willing to risk their lives. One of the greatest characteristics of a free society is that people can choose not to go to war, while others lay their lives down to protect that right to choose. I think that all groups should participate in the protection of freedom but the higher ground is to actually protect everyone no matter their interpretation of scripture.
If we interpreted the words of Jesus to mean that all killing must stop and we did not then protect our freedom with the blood of patriots, then of course we would, in the general societal sense, quite literally be bowing to Hitler or Stalin.
This has been prevented by destroying Natzism and continually fighting Communism.
We have however turned the manufacturing of all our goods over to Communist China. We make the exception here so that we can by cheap goods at Walmart. Why not finance the country that will accomplish global domination with their billion plus educated population?
But God is in control! I anticipate with unrelenting belief in God and His Word that He will be showing up in Marvelous Ways in the days ahead. I have no fear as to world events for I fear My Creator Who is Love. Glory to God, Botham.
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becauseHElives
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Hebrews 8
6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless then should no place have been sought for the second.
Matthew 5
An Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Romans 8
35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
What would the entire number of martyr’s say to the point of view, it is right to take a life of your enemies?
Stephen could have picked up rocks and thrown back at his enemies but he chooses to pray for them.
Matthew 26
53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
If you are a Child of Yahweh, those 12 legions of angels are at your disposal also….
Will you trust in the Heavenly Father’s love for you are take matters in your own hands?
I submit to you all that he taking of a life by a Christian is never the right thing do.
Killing, murder, it doesn’t matter what word you use. The taking of a life for any cause for the child of Yahweh is wrong.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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botham wrote quote:
So "love your enemies"--we're throwing that one out?
I think as long as our enemies don't say, "I k-e-e-e-l you!!", then we can try to love our enemies.
But God did not hesitate to root out evil and to pay back evil. When Israel was camped on the north side of Moab on the east side of the Jordan valley opposite Jericho, God told Israel to send an army to Midian and kill the Midianites:
Numbers 31:2
Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites; afterward shall you be gathered unto your people.
Numbers 31:3
And Moses spoke to the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
In addition, evil has a way of rooting itself out:
Amos 9:10
All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, who say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
But God does not like it when the killing is overdone:
Isaiah 52
4 For thus says the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause.
God also uses good people to destroy evil people:
1 Samuel 15:18
The LORD sent you on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
As for me and my house, please don't say to me, "I k-e-e-e-l you!!" because I will try to k-e-e-e-l you first", and I probably won't do too much philosophizing beforehand; I'm sure instinct will kick in: ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
love, Eden
"well, thank you ... thank you very much"
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Carol Swenson
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Revelation 21:4 (NLT)
He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.
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botham
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Should Christians Kill? There are many Christians, born again believers, in the armed forces. So yes. An executioner of someone who the state has given the death sentence to might be a Christian also.
But let's not use language equivalent to the abortionist's 'legal medical procedure' such as 'fulfilling a function for the state' or 'doing my duty as a soldier'. It is killing and will traumatize the killer. Soldiers and police need to debrief by facing the reality that they have taken a life.
Surely we do not need to discuss whether Christians should kill, as in wonton murder.
So which side is God on? The Taliban are going to tell you that God is on their side. To them, blowing up infidels is doing God's work. I hope that our armed forces do not think that killing is God's work. But as battles for freedom insue, people will be killed. Hitler thought that He was invloved in a divine quest to purify the human race--thus he justified the holocaust.
So yes, Christians will kill as they carry out their sworn duty as police officers and members of the armed forces. We must pray for them to remain healthy in their soul as they fulfill this function between relative peace and anarchy. There will always be a pawn of Satan waiting in the wings to deprive us of freedom and replace it with their various versions of dictatorship.
A great day looms when this will end--prasie God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and our precious Holy Spirit. God bless, Botham
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botham
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So 'love your enemies'--we're throwing that one out? God bless, Botham
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Eden
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Killing is justified ...
when Achmed ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif) in Afghanistan yells, "I k-e-e-e-l you!!!" ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
love, Eden
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WildB
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It is not Murder to protect yourself and State(those under your care).
The objective is not to murder but to stop.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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excellent observation Eden....
quote:
Actually, I think that "potentially" man has 100% free choice, but in most cases people DO NOT have 100% free choice. Take eating for instance. People in jail constantly get baloney sandwiches on white bleached Webber's bread. They have no choice unless they have relatives sending them Commissary money. If they have Commissary money, their choice is increased because they can buy oranges from the Commissary. Likewise, a lot of what we eat in life is what we have learned through imprinting from our parents. If our parents ate healthy, then we are also likely to eat healthy later in life. But if our parents ate a lot of junk fast food and candy and cakes, we also will be likely to eat junk food, and so on. Or in Darfur, all that may be available is some roots which barely have any nutritive value, but if they had a choice they would eat (you fill in the blanks). Another thing that impinges/modifies our "free choice" is wealth. A person with a lot of money can buy "the better cuts" or "live higher on the hog" than, say, the blind man whom I help who calls me to ask for $5 because he is hungry and he buys 2, one-dollar fast food burgers with the $5, so that he has $3 left for hygiene items. Or, if one is born in Saudi Arabia one does not just have the free will to become a Christian and still continue to live; one can become a Christian but your own family members will kill you for doing so. By contrast, here in the USA anyone can become a Christian and they are still free to do other activities. In some countries, a young woman has no choice who they will marry; a suitor from another village may come to her parents and ask for her hand in marriage from the parents. If the parents give permission, she has to marry him. The notion that we all have the same amount of free will is actually not true at all because there are many things that impinge upon one's free will: -- the country we are born in -- whether we are rich or poor -- whether we were raised in a loving family or an abusive family -- what we learn from our parents -- which choice we make when we come to a fork in the road -- Some of our choices are based on "who gets their first" (first come, first serve) -- other choices are limited by how old we are, as in R-rated movies for those over 17 years old, and so on. So there is probably no such thing as a truly "free" choice. However, the more a believer learns to mind the things of the Spirit instead of mind the things of the flesh, the better that believer's choices will be in any given moment. love, Eden
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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botham
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Absolutely Eden--my 'free choice' ideas about what we eat were about what we, the most fortunate society in the world, can access if we want. The main point was that with the Holy Spirit's guidance we can override the ingrained habits that we acquired from our families and the powerful influences of marketing fats, sugar and salt disquised as food.
As to the majority of people in the world, they do not have such luxuries as us and are fortunate to get any food much less have the vast choices that we have. This is a good topic--while we must choose good food over bad, so many millions of people simply need to find sufficient food. While we discuss once saved always saved or utter depravity and free will and so on, Christians in so many places are fortunate just not to get killed for believing on our Saviour Jesus Christ.
Godd perspective my brother in Christ--God bless, Botham
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Eden
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Hi, botham, you wrote quote:
I hope you agree that we humans have a choice as to what we put into our bodies.
Actually, I think that "potentially" man has 100% free choice, but in most cases people DO NOT have 100% free choice.
Take eating for instance. People in jail constantly get baloney sandwiches on white bleached Webber's bread. They have no choice unless they have relatives sending them Commissary money. If they have Commissary money, their choice is increased because they can buy oranges from the Commissary.
Likewise, a lot of what we eat in life is what we have learned through imprinting from our parents. If our parents ate healthy, then we are also likely to eat healthy later in life. But if our parents ate a lot of junk fast food and candy and cakes, we also will be likely to eat junk food, and so on.
Or in Darfur, all that may be available is some roots which barely have any nutritive value, but if they had a choice they would eat (you fill in the blanks).
Another thing that impinges/modifies our "free choice" is wealth. A person with a lot of money can buy "the better cuts" or "live higher on the hog" than, say, the blind man whom I help who calls me to ask for $5 because he is hungry and he buys 2, one-dollar fast food burgers with the $5, so that he has $3 left for hygiene items.
Or, if one is born in Saudi Arabia one does not just have the free will to become a Christian and still continue to live; one can become a Christian but your own family members will kill you for doing so. By contrast, here in the USA anyone can become a Christian and they are still free to do other activities.
In some countries, a young woman has no choice who they will marry; a suitor from another village may come to her parents and ask for her hand in marriage from the parents. If the parents give permission, she has to marry him.
The notion that we all have the same amount of free will is actually not true at all because there are many things that impinge upon one's free will:
-- the country we are born in
-- whether we are rich or poor
-- whether we were raised in a loving family or an abusive family
-- what we learn from our parents
-- which choice we make when we come to a fork in the road
-- Some of our choices are based on "who gets their first" (first come, first serve)
-- other choices are limited by how old we are, as in R-rated movies for those over 17 years old, and so on.
So there is probably no such thing as a truly "free" choice.
However, the more a believer learns to mind the things of the Spirit instead of mind the things of the flesh, the better that believer's choices will be in any given moment.
love, Eden
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botham
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Hello Eden--I was thinking of health issues, a topic triggered by Brother Paul's anlaogy using cellular life in the body. I hope you agree that we humans have a choice as to what we put into our bodies. This along with exercise and correct thinking guided by the Holy Spirit is the basis for good health. People generally do not have the Power to resist temptations about eating and to be lazy with respect to exercise. If we present our bodies to God for our health He will inspire us to make healthful choices for our benefit and then the benefit of others.
So if we put God first in our lives, remembering that He created us from the elements of the earth we live on, then we will seek out healthful choices as to what is needed to sustain this wonderfully made body in accordance with God's desire for our health.
God literally puts the choice before us as to life and death of the body. We can experience an accelerated death of the body by eating processed and restaurant food laden with transfats, salt and sugar, or we can put organic vegetables, fish, fruit and lean meat into us for the maintenance of the intricate cellular life created by God.
As to the spirit, soul and body, a theme that interests you as a key to understanding Creation and scripture, you make a good point. We must first and foremost present our spirit to God as He is Spirit. Why do most people abuse their bodies and fall into the pit of the addiction cycle concerning not only food but also information such as pornography and many other base subtances that our lowest nature adapts to.
If we bring thses matters to God, who is Total Unity, He will unify our approach to health by giving us the power see our existence as one thing. The body is only subordinate to the spirit and soul in the sense that it demands sugar, salt and fat once addicted to it. The human soul is subordinate in the sense that our cognitive life and emotions seek to wander from God unless we consciously choose to have God preeminent in our lives. When the correct order is established good bodily health follows becasue unification has taken place.
I give God glory for my health and in sickness I also give Him glory, waiting on Him for guidance as to fasting and changing food choices. God bless, Botham
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Eden
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hello, botham, greetings and Happy New Year. You wrote quote:
The goal is to unify the body, soul and spirit before God asking for His power.
What did you mean by this? If you wait until YOU unify the body, soul and spirit BEFORE you ask for God's power (if that's what you meant), you will never succeed. All that is necessary is to KNOW that you have a spirit, soul, and body, and that they should rule in that order, is enough.
When our spirit of man has been quickened by the Written Word of God, and we repent of soul rule, already then do we need to turn to God and say, "Okay, God, YOU instruct me and teach me in the way that I should go."
Then God will speak by the Holy Spirit to your spirit, and your spirit in turn relays that information to your soul and your soul executes in the body what it heard from the spirit.
The more we present ourselves to God for His Counsel, the more our spirit, soul, and body will be unified in a smooth-functioning unit.
love, Eden
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Brother Paul
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Thanks Botham, this was actually a response to a number of secular people who claim God is both a lying hypocrite who breaks His own commands and is a murderer! Of course we both know otherwise.
Brother Paul
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botham
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Thank you Brother Paul--terrific anaology with the cellular life in the body. I have even tackled health issues with a type of prayer before God where I ask Him to assist me in the certainty that I have dominion over my choices as to food, exercise, refusing to feel anxiety(stress) and so on. My distinct impression is that God is in favor of this kind of meditation as long as He receives the glory for the improvements. So there is a very practical application, in my opinion, to the idea of our soul domination of the body--that seems to want to offend. The goal is to unify the body, soul and spirit before God asking for His power.
As to the killing question, I think the state is justified in the taking of life for very serious, heinous acts of murder. I don't see execution as murder. If a child is sexually molested and then killed the only justice I see is execution. The condemned culprit has an opportunity to ask God for forgiveness, something that the victims might never get to do. There is a good argument for life without parole in that God has the last word for every life. But I do not sense that execution is wrong before God if a fair trial has occurred and there is virtually zero doubt as to guilt based on forensic and circumstantial evidence. And it is about justice, not vengeance or deterence.
I thank you for the extended thought about murder, it being the eradication at least to our understanding, of an entire bloodline. I have alwsya hated abortion because of the obvious, the killing of the most vulnerable and innocent in the place where they should be the safest, so the killing of the innocent leads also to the killing of their generations following. Could it be that God in His perfect justification of all things on a Great Day, will fulfill the entire line of people washed away by these abhorent acts?
Very interesting and informative as usual Paul--thanks, God bless, Botham
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Brother Paul
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Exactly! Thanks Carol. The Lord bless...
Bother Paul
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Carol Swenson
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Hi Paul
The Hebrew can also be translated "murder", and several English translations state it that way. I think "murder" is correct because God commanded that certain people be killed when they were sinful or if they were enemies.
Exodus 20:13
YLT:
13‘Thou dost not murder.
NRSV:
13You shall not murder.
NKJV:
13“You shall not murder.
NCV:
13“You must not murder anyone.
KJV:
13Thou shalt not kill.
ESV:
13“You shall not murder.
DRB:
13Thou shalt not kill.
DNT:
13Thou shalt not kill.
ASV:
13Thou shalt not kill.
RSV:
13“You shall not kill.
NASB:
13“You shall not murder.
ICB:
13“You must not murder anyone.
NLT:
13“You must not murder.
CEV:
13 Do not murder.
HCSB:
13Do not murder.
TEV:
13 “Do not commit murder.
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Brother Paul
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When is Killing Justified?
The question has been asked, since the 6th commandment clearly teaches “You shall not kill” (Exodus 20:13), isn’t God violating His own word when He commands Joshua to destroy every man, woman, and child, in some of the Canaanite cities?
The answer to this will become clear, so please read slowly and do not misconstrue the intent. God has made it plain that he takes, “…no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they would turn from their ways and live’ “ (Ezekiel 33:11)! You see, God is even willing to show mercy to murderers, like King David or Saint Paul, so long as they sincerely repent! But Jesus brings this even a step further in Matthew 5:21-22 when He tells us that even harboring unrepentant hatred toward another is as bad as actual murder itself. Instead we Christians are called to “overcome evil with good”, and as much as is humanly possible, we are to “live peaceably with everyone” (Romans 12:17-21), for this is the way that many will be able to tell that we are the children of God (Matthew 5:9; 43-45).
In the Scriptures, killing is not always a violation of the 6th commandment. It really depends on two things:
who has a right to kill, and
what are the seen and foreseen circumstances or events that brought about this death.
First off, regarding who has a right to kill? Only God, whom He allows or appoints, and who He so commands. However, for the most part, He reserves that right only to Himself. Why? What gives Him this right? Because He is the creator and giver of “bios” life, and without Him there is no life, therefore, only He has the ultimate right or authority to take life and do with it as He pleases. But as we have seen in the above mentioned passage from Ezekiel, it actually grieves Him when this must take place.
But wait brother, we create things also. However, when we create something, it is not alive. But do we still not have the right to destroy it if it is dysfunctional or not to our liking and make something else of the materials? Of course we do! I made a wooden cup once, but eventually it swelled, and warped, and no longer could serve its’ purpose. Then one day it split and began to leak, so I threw it into the yard for the kids to play with, and eventually it was destroyed, but that was my choice was it not? Yes, I understand that this is not a living thing, but the idea of one creating something, and having absolute control of its’ final destiny is the point being made here. That is why God says, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay!” Only then is vengeance truly justified, for the Lord does not judge by outward appearances but knows the thoughts of the heart and the outcomes of all future actions.
Secondarily, when God says, you shall not kill, that does not mean in an absolute sense, as you will see, for we must first understand what He is saying here, and in order to do that, we must discern what He means here by the word “kill”!
There are three different words in the Tanach (Old Testament) used for killing. Likewise, in order to uncover the circumstances or events under which killing is sometimes allowed, one must take into account the context of the act.
The Hebrew word “rasah” or “rashah”, as it is used here in the 6th Commandment, refers specifically to premeditated murder. However, it can also be used in the sense of manslaughter, as when one kills by mistake, or without intent, like in the case of Numbers 25:11; Deuteronomy 4:42, 19:4, Joshua 20:3-5, and elsewhere! Thus the meaning of this word must always be determined by its’ context. We must always see it in relation to the surrounding statements.
Next, we have the word “hemit”, which carries no sense of guilt or iniquity as in the case of righteous capital punishment, or when the killing is the result of an attack from a wild beast, etc.! The root of this word is related to the word “emet” or truth. We see this usage in Leviticus 20:4; Numbers 35:19-21; Deuteronomy 13:10; 17:7!
Finally, when God orders the execution or destruction of an individual or group, the word “haraq” is used (See Genesis 20:4; Exodus 4:23, etc.,). This form of killing is used in the prevention of foreseen evils beyond our comprehension. By eliminating these people, God is sparing millions of others. Therefore, this form of killing is always just, whether or not we finite humans can see the full implications of His doing it. It is similar to our going and annihilating as many Nazis as we could and evetually eliminating Hitler...we killed a 1,000's and even some innocents to achieve the goal, but in the end we saved millions....
The question has also been asked, “Why couldn’t God just make the devils repent and then save them rather than condemn them all to eternal death in Gehenna? I mean, didn’t Jesus die for all sins? Can’t He save them as well?”
And the answer is, “Yes, He could, but He won’t, because these are free-will beings who not only have made this choice, but God has foreseen that, even if given many opportunities, they still will not repent.”
Therefore, regarding this type of death that they will suffer (eternal separation from the presence of God), and believing they know what this means, they still choose faithless rebellion, and so God is entirely justified, and no person who truly understands this can feel sorry for the malevolent spirits of this universe who are being so judged. Clearly there are human spirits like this as well! In the end Gehenna is merely the place God has provided where He is not and in fact is giving them their way. A chance to be free of Him, His influence, rules, etc., and all He would provide!
Now then, according to the Scriptures a murderer is almost always a person who sits and premeditates the killing of another human being for some ultimately selfish reason such as hatred, jealousy, political power, revenge, profit, control, etc.! Originally mankind was made in God’s image, so when we take a life and shed another’s blood, we offend God. Mankind was also meant to be a progenitor of others and so when we murder, we eliminate the life of all those who were meant to have a life because of us who are not yet born. When we murder them we essentially murder all their offspring.
You see, unlike the “abortion for convenience” mentality so prevalent in America and Europe today, according to the Bible, God sees all these killed unborn beings as humans, and as “persons”, and therefore, considers the premeditated taking of their lives to be murder. Did you know that in the story of Cain’s murder of Abel, Genesis 4:10 is actually saying that his brother’s “blood’s” (plural) are crying out to God? The early Rabbis all understood this word in this way, though it can be plural or singular, and so this is what I believe as well. If you “murder” a person, you are also murdering all their potential offspring. God takes humanity’s mutual preservation of each individual’s life very seriously. So seriously in fact, as well as being aware of the human’s natural tendency for revenge and errors in judgment, we see that in the time of the Covenant of the Law with Israel, He also set up places of refuge (entire cities), and commanded each case be judged with fair trials obtaining witnesses (two or more that must be in agreement), but gave them a law the stemmed from the time of Noah which said, “If a man sheds the blood of another, by man his blood shall be shed”, and then finally recommends forgiveness for most sin and provides a system of blood sacrifice for sin, culminating when He gave His only begotten Son (Isaiah 53/John 3). The provision of animal sacrifice was of course only temporary looking forward to this “once for all” sacrifice of His Son (Hebrews 10:10), as an atonement that satisfies the requirement of life for life (Genesis 9:6/Isaiah 53). For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Therefore, this intent of God to treat each individual life as sacred is so serious that, as eluded to above, that Jesus the Messiah says that even anger and insult are violations of the 6th Commandment.
So why did our Lord do all this for us? Because of the potential danger that lurks within each of us when we act out as our own lord (Genesis 3:5). Sad as it seems to admit it, the source of these heinous and dangerous motivations is a genuine potential that lies within each of us (Matthew 15:19)! Who can deny it? Only the self-deluded!
Now to demonstrate a sense of justifiable killing that is not murder, that is not necessarily morally wrong, such as the basis for the so-called “Just War” concept, or God’s command for certain people to go wipe out a family line, or an entire city, or even when considering the right to protect one’s children from victimization at the hands of some maniac, I will use an analogy that arises from within the survival instinct of our own bodies. The principle I am about to reveal is basic to all living creatures and well grounded in established biological truths.
In the human body, each cell is an individual life form. They each likewise function as part of a specific local community. Different cells, and groups of cells, display differences in structure, appearance, life-span, function, etc., just like different humans and groups of humans! Each cell in relation to the other cells, and as a member of their particular cellular community, knowingly or unknowingly works as an intricate part of a whole which is greater than the sum of its’ parts. The human host of which it is but a tiny almost insignificant part, is as the Lord is, in relation to the members of His body. The individual cell’s purpose, like our own, is to work to maintain and protect its’ self life, as well as the goals of its’ community life. One of the ways they assure the survival of their type is through self-replication or offspring. Their higher purpose is actually to achieve our will and our good purpose though they are most probably totally unaware, or only vaguely, that we, their human host even exists. They understand little if anything about us, and our ways are higher than their ways, our thoughts are higher than their thoughts, if indeed it can be said that they even have any. They go about more or less doing the right thing in relation to one another unaware of the part they are playing in working within our overall purpose and will. Beyond their circumstantial perceptions they are working and interacting to optimize our quality of life and helping to fulfill our long term plans.
Now then, each individual cell is created in our image. They contain the image of their host within each of them (called DNA). They probably can sense an order and function interactively to enhance their mutually dependable existence. The span of their existence may be miniscule in relation to their human host, but to them it is a lifetime.
Sad as this truth is, every once in a while, a cell or some group of cells, decides they are going to do their own thing. They’re going to be their own lord if you will. They seemingly become self-willed and rebellious toward the established order. They begin to gain new converts so to speak, in great numbers, and nothing is going to stop them from their plan to take over. We call this actual biological phenomena is what we call “Cancer”! These terrorist or barbarous cells literally go into attack mode and start sapping the life out of the surrounding cells, killing as many as necessary in pursuit of their self-willed agenda. At first the effect of their violence upon their community of cells is slight and almost unnoticeable, causing some alarm, discomfort, and intermittent disturbance here and there. Regulatory norms are enforced by the greater community, and often these violent murderous outbreaks are remedied without bringing much attention or alarm to the neighboring cellular communities. However, on occasion these cells reject these corrective measures and rebel even further extending there influence outward, and begin to influence their surroundings in such a way that the immune system is alerted, and the local community has to call in specialists to eliminate these criminal cells in an attempt to protect the near by individuals, and the society at large. These are usually in the form of “anti-bodies” and white blood cells, that specialize in response to the types of violent rebellion these particular cellular individuals impose. Why try to eliminate them? Because of the inevitable threat they cause to individuals and to the greater society. The literally bring a sort of chaos into the order of things destroying the work being done there. If left on their own without being stopped they will continue to maliciously destroy and entirely take over. The forces alerted to remedy the problem will stop at nothing to prevent more senseless murder and mayhem and if necessary will even kill them. They even try surrounding them and trapping them as a first attempt by encapsulating them in a membrane or prison if you will.
If they get too powerful, or for some non-sensible reason are released, or break out of their captivity, or get away with their self-lordship too long, the cell’s lord, the human host, begins to take notice and likewise goes on alert. It likewise then takes any steps necessary to overcome or even kill the Cancer before it gets too powerful. It will irradiate, cut out, laser roast, or even chop off a limb in order to preserve the greater good and sometimes the life of the whole. Often times a number of good healthy citizen cells are called on to make the sacrifice of self for the greater good. Sometimes just the act of chasing down these devils and getting at them requires the sacrifice of good, innocent, healthy, cellular individuals. As tragic as this may seem it is the necessary price that must be paid to protect and save the most lives in the community.
So it is with God! Occasionally, God sees the development of a human cancer growing stronger and stronger. The appropriate members of the human community at large are being intimidated, persuaded, abused, and even eliminated. Sometimes He sees that resistance attempts have been, or will continue to be futile, and so He must step in and take action to save the many, to work the greater overall good, even though we may not fully comprehend the extent of this benefit at the time. When we have to go in and wipe out a cancer are we not grieved? There just are times when certain individuals or groups are determined to work their will against the wellbeing of others, or against the will and best interests of their Lord, and so He has to step in and fix the problem by getting rid of these human cancers, and by this He repairs the damage. Again, sometimes seemingly innocent individuals or perhaps many, may lose their lives as well. Sometimes this is necessary to maximize the optimal benefit to the many. Jesus understood this principle and so He willfully laid down His own “bios” life. Mahatma Ghandi understood this. Martin Luther King Jr. also understood this.
Thus, God is not a “murderer” because He calls for death or allows it. He is a Savior and Deliverer. He knows the end from the beginning and we do not. He knows that which would come of a people and the vile and evil atrocities that His action now avoids. We do not. Besides, how dare anybody judge the living God. Again He is the creator and giver of this life (bios) and only He has the ultimate right to take it if it so pleases Him to do so. But again God is merciful and compassionate, blessed be His Name, but He is also just.
Now on occasions, if it is God’s prerogative to do so, He may call upon certain persons or groups to assist in this process of thwarting evil. Those persons or forces called to help God in this endeavor are likewise not murderers either, because they are also saving the multitudes in the future human community. Some of them are at great risk to their own lives when helping to accomplish this greater good. They are willing to lay down their life for friends and even non-friends. In many cases they are willfully risking their own reputations and lives so that the rest of us may live free from treachery, harm, and abuse. Such is also the case when a loving caring parent protecting their children or spouse from some violent attack harms the assailant, even if it means one of them dies in the process. People have a legal right, and a God given instinct, to protect themselves and their offspring, and should never be subject to trials or threatened with jail even if this results in the assailants death. When we hear of this on our streets, or in our countries, or in the world, we should be grateful, and honor these people as heroes, and rejoice for them, encouraging them, and be thankful to God for them. You have no idea just how pain, suffering, torment, death, and destruction, has been averted by these selfless acts on the part of some for the sake of others. Stop giving in to the warped rationalized false sense of distorted morality of the so-called politically correct. A famous man who’s name slips my mind at the moment once said, “For evil to continue to exist it only takes for good people to do nothing”!
Finally, in a more direct fashion, let me just say that our omniscient God knows the end from the beginning. Not only were these people an abomination to all He willed for man, but they had usurped God’s land from the true children of Abraham to whom He had given it. They were violent, perverse, irreverent, and more. But more importantly, God could foresee the future of these people and knew they would not cease from this activity. He knew they would cause much more harm to the human community, and it could possibly bring mankind back to the place of the human heart just before He judged the whole world in the flood.
You know folks, as people who claim to believe in God, we have to stop seeing Him through the eyes of the world. Remember when God said some of the religious and political leaders had rendered the word of God of no effect by their traditions? Do not follow after philosophies of vain deceit any longer. If YHVH is God then serve Him. If Baal is God then serve Him, but choose you this day who you will trust in, rely on, and cleave to. In the famous words of Joshua, “As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD” (YHVH)!
Posts: 235 | From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Dec 2009
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