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Author
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Topic: Turning from sin= works? or a required part of repentance?
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Keeper:
You said: Repentance is a deep, radical change of both perspective and committment, resulting in moral and spiritual transformation.
Perhaps you are right on target Keeper.......and maybe that is the reason why Jesus said that we must be born of water(the repentance which comes by the "washing of the word") and the spirit.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Keeper
Advanced Member
Member # 7675
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posted
I know how some think on this board. When someone says that a person cannot come to repentance without hearing the word of God, there is going to be someone say :
You mean you have to know all of the Word of God to come to repentance?
Posts: 481 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Copper25
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Member # 7464
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posted
In the book of Acts, everyone that came to Christ heard the gospel. Needful, yes. Simply put, you can't come to who you don't know right? Its that simple.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Keeper
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Member # 7675
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posted
OneinChrist...I can not imagine how anyone could be saved without hearing the word of God. To say that a person cannot be saved without hearing the word of God seems a bit misleading maybe huh? Don't you think that the "gospel" is the qualifier? Of course, each person needs more than just the gospel, but it isn't required that they hear "The Word of God" in it's entirety. See what I mean ? You know how some think.
Sorry bout that, I should have kept my keyboard shut.
Posts: 481 | Registered: Apr 2009
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Copper 25,
I completely agree with you about the Holy Spirits role in convicting us of sin. I do not believe that anyone comes to repentance without first hearing the word of God.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Keeper
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Member # 7675
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posted
I have said it before and will say it again.
Repentance: A deep, radical change of both perspective and commitment, resulting in a moral and spiritual transformation.
For whatever reason, if a person has not heard the gospel then I don't think they can be called stupid or purposely evil. Purposely evil would mean that you are aware of what God calls evil.
Once you are aware of God and his teachings but turn away then you are no longer considered not responsible for your future with God. Once you know the deal.....and wish to change from the now recognized sorry life, that is repentance.
Works become relevant after being saved.
Posts: 481 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Copper25
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posted
Something interesting about repentance, it is something that must be initiated by the Holy Spirit.
This takes more than (despite what many modern preachers say) five minutes of taking with someone.
If that person within a given time goes back to being like the world, like they never knew Christ Jesus at all; and the only difference is that they do go to church every Sunday, then true repentance did not take place in their heart.
Frankly, because a person is not treated as a soul, but rather as a number, and they are not worked with to make sure the working of God is upon them and has started in them, we got people who may have been claiming to be part of the Christian faith for 40 years, but never in reality were born again. The end result, a person who is a Christian in by confession of mouth only, but not in spirit, not in adoption, have not become a child of heaven. Repenteance, true repentance will lead to fruitfulness in someone's life, even those true believers who struggle with sin, evidence will be manifest.
2 Corinthians 7:
7) And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.
8) For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
The Corinthians sorrowed not in a shallow worldly way, but rather in a deep way that pierced there hearts, such conviction made them desire with passion very richly to seek after God and change their lives. This type of conviction certainly took more than a one sentence letter. Being sorrowful and broken is a beautiful thing when it comes to being convicted of sin.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Good morning Eden,
I would like you to know that one day I would like to meet you because I feel like I do know you as a brother in the Lord. I would like to share with you something that I think I am discovering in my study of scripture.........when studying "what is faith?" or "what is repentance?" I am finding that there is not a one word, or once sentence answer. There seems to be mulitiple "facets"(differing elements that make up the same substance)
For example: When speaking of repentance there is
1.Feeling of sorrow/regret
2. Taking personal responsibility for actions
3. Confession of sin
3. Humbling ourselves before the Lord
4. Looking at sin in a different light
5. renouncing and turning from wicked practices
6. Stop running my own life of living in rebellion to God
7. turn to God or return to God and listen to His voice
8. turn from unbelief
Now, I do not claim this to be an exhaustive list.....but a list of things that I believe that I have discovered to be unique "facets" to the same thing. If you notice, I have included your "facet" because I believe it also makes up part of the "diamond"
If we were to use the word faith my list might begin like this:
1. Receive Jesus as savior/Lord
2. Trust in Jesus' word
3. Entrust our lives into His care
4. Confess Him before others
5.
6.
Do you catch my drift? I am constantly seeking to understand all these different "facets" that make up the whole of the "diamond"
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Wild B,
I do not need to be reminded of your "personal" interpretation of scripture. I already know it, and you know that I disagree with the style of study that you use. I have told you before, and I will tell you once again that I believe that the most reliable way to study scripture is to compare scripture with scripture.......not to put trust in man-made theologies that have a knack for partitioning off scripture into bits and pieces. I'd be willing to bet that there are more things that apply to us(directly) in scripture than many people are lead to believe.
With love in Christ, Daniel
I study the script as a Berean.
Acts.17
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
okay, oneinchrist, I read part of your Topic and I'm quoting the following part below quote:
2 Chronicles 7:14
"if my people who are called by My name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
If this is God' call to repentance ... then it seems to me that "turning from our wicked ways" is one of the conditions for forgiveness of sin ... not something that should be equated with "works"; and therefore, discounted as unneccessary towards salvation.
The prodigal son did not call home to ask if his father would send him money so that he could keep living his crazy life. He became sorry, regretted his actions, and left his crazy life(wicked lifestyle) behind to go home and seek the mercy of his father.
Hi, oneinchrist, greetings, I'm confident that you are overall having a great day in Jesus.
First of all, I have always been impressed by 2 Chronicles 7:14, and for that matter, the BRAVERY of President Ronald Reagan to use the verse in a speech to the American people.
However, that verse is from the OLD Testament, and I think it is largely BECAUSE people were NOT able to KEEP the figures of the Old Testament that Jesus came and died on the cross ON OUR BEHALF because we were such nincompoops and could NEVER BE GOOD, as Paul outlined in the book of Romans...
So that the law was more of a show of the human races's show to disobedience than to ability of obedience and was "our schoomaster to keep us at least partly in control until Jesus our Savior appeared" in the Son of God in about 26 A.D., and that BY HIM we were saved who were incapable of saving ourselves.
So in that regard, I would even say that we were INCAPABLE of keeping 2 Chronicles 7:14, by the time the last curtain went up in the long running show of "Israel" in the Middle East.
Howbeit, what does it mean to repent? To me it means that I repent from "running my own show" (which I learned to do from Adam and Eve after those two ate from the "tree of knowledge of good and evil").
And so I repent from running my own show and TO REPENT MEANS that I acknowledge that Jesus and God are more powerful than me and could destroy me at any moment, should they choose to do so.
And furthermore TO REPENT means to me that Jesus died for my sins on the cross and that I now can have access to the Everlasting Counsel of the Holy Spirit, whereby my life will work much better than it has before when I thought that I was the know-it-all about my own life.
So I repent, not of any particular historical sins especially, although I acknowledge that I had my historical sins because I was stupid enough, like Adam and Eve, to think that I could run my own life without the Counsel of God, I repent of what I HAVE therefore done ...
But more than that, I repent of continuing to do it "my way" and now want the Everlasting Counsel of God to guide my evere step... that to me is TRUE REPENTANCE, to get rid of the SOURCE of sin which is running my own life and to get on with the AVOIDANCE of sin by letting God run my life again, as it was before Adam and Eve sinned in the garden of Eden...
with my love to you, Eden
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Eden
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posted
dear oneinchrist, please know that you are one of my dearest brothers on this bbs because you are so honest and polite, but I must say, that JUST FROM READING YOUR TITLE of your Topic, I felt like SIGHING and thinking that this brother oneinchrist deifinitely OVERWORKS this subject of repentance and works before or after being saved.
Howbeit, I do recognize that it must be a subject of importance to you since you bring it up so often so I will now go read your Topic text to see what you said. Remember, I do like you a lot for your uprightness and calmness and politeness, okay?
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Wild B,
I do not need to be reminded of your "personal" interpretation of scripture. I already know it, and you know that I disagree with the style of study that you use. I have told you before, and I will tell you once again that I believe that the most reliable way to study scripture is to compare scripture with scripture.......not to put trust in man-made theologies that have a knack for partitioning off scripture into bits and pieces. I'd be willing to bet that there are more things that apply to us(directly) in scripture than many people are lead to believe.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Wild B,
Paul preached "repentance towards God" and "faith towards the Lord Jesus"(Acts 20:21)
What do you suppose "repentance towards God" means?
With love in Christ, Daniel
As a JEW or a GENTILE?
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Copper,
I agree in the sense that.......if a man does not look at sin any different after hearing of the cross of Christ, then he has not come to repentance.
I would like to add that I do believe that the sanctification process is to help us grow in an increasing hatred towards sin.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Copper25
Advanced Member
Member # 7464
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posted
So what about the person's hatred toward the sin that he once loved?
I would think that this is something critical indeed in repentence.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Wild B,
Paul preached "repentance towards God" and "faith towards the Lord Jesus"(Acts 20:21)
What do you suppose "repentance towards God" means?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Bible, King James Version
Gal.5
[4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Right now before me I have 3 bible dictionaries and each one makes reference to "turning from sin" as being part of repentance.
Wycliffe Bible Dictionary:
The doctrine of repentance is most clearly set forth in the NT by the noun metanoia and its related verb. Wherever this noun or verb occurs there is an invitation to men to TURN FROM SIN unto the grace of God.
Vines Concise Dict. of The Bible: (Greek-Heb)
In the NT the subject chiefly has reference to "repentance" from sin, and this change of mind involves both a TURNING FROM SIN and a turning to God.
The Laymans Bible Dictionary:
The act of TURNING FROM SIN and changing ones orientation from rebellion against God to acceptance of Gods will and lordship.
I have often wondered if God gives us the most extensive look at repentance in the following verse..............
2 Chronicles 7:14
"if my people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
If this is Gods call to repentance.........then it seems to me that "turning from our wicked ways" is one of the conditions for forgiveness of sin..........not something that should be equated with "works"; and therefore, discounted as unneccessary towards salvation. The prodigal son did not call home to ask if his father would send him money so that he could keep living his crazy life. He became sorry, regretted his actions, and left his crazy life(wicked lifestyle)behind to go home and seek the mercy of his father.
Please note that I do not believe that Gods plea is for us to sanctify ourselves, but for us to renounce(give up,reject) any evil practices in our lives that we have full knowledge of as clearly being contrary to Gods will. In other words I believe that "turning from wickedness" is distinct from "sanctification by the spirit" in that "turning from wickedness"(as part of repentance) is necessary towards forgiveness and "faith that is in Jesus" is necessary towards sanctification.
Acts 26:18 'to open their eyes, in order to TURN THEM FROM DARKNESS TO LIGHT, and from the power of Satan to God, that they MAY RECEIVE FORGIVENESS OF SINS and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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