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Topic: grace and law
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Found in Him
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Member # 7596
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posted
![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Keeper
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posted
Grace is God's free and spontaneous action taken to meet human need, especially in providing salvation and enabling the believer. Eph 2:1-10
Law is divine instruction, given by God to show Israel how to live in covenant relationship with the Lord. The word Law means a good number of things through the years. Now it means something you don't have to abide by unless you get caught or have a good lawyer. (I had to say that).
The law now is world wide for believers and still used to guide us in righteousness.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
"we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin ... In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 4:11-12& Heb 5:7-8)
I think I am reading correctly....
he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him......
Yahshua did died to break the bond of sin but he also died to to impute His ability to those who would follow in faith......
yahsway ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Found in Him
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posted
Hi Yahsway,
I don't think anyone here called the law 'bad'.
We rejoice in an awesome Savior, right?
“But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.” Hebrews 8:6
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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yahsway
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posted
Yes FoundInHim, it was fulfilled, but not in the sense that the Laws of God were "Bad" or in the sense that we are not to keep them for they have not been done away with.
The word fulfill there does not mean to be abolished or done away with.
What was done away with was the the curse of the Law, not the Law itself. What was done away with was the need for a High Priest to sacrifice animals day in and day out, for Yeshua was sacrificed Once, and for All peoples. There is the change in the OT system is it is that which has been done away with for now we have a A Higher Priest. But the Laws have not been done away with.
Yes, the life that we live is by Faith, Abraham had this Faith, so did Moses, so did the Patriarchs and the Prophets the disciples and the Apostles, and Us as believers. The gift of God is eternal Life thru Yeshua, thru our acceptance and Faith in Him. Thru the Power of the Holy Spirit one is able to keep ALL Gods laws and commandments.
We do not do so out of merit, we do so because thats what He has desired from the beginning. A people who would honor Him not just on their lips, but their deeds as well. This shows a changed heart.
The guilt and penalty for sin yes, must be removed, not the Laws of God being removed. There is a difference. The Judaism of Yeshuas day was far removed from what the Fathers laws were, for the Pharisees and saducees and scribes built fenses around the Origional Laws of God. They were man-made laws.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Found in Him
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"16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Gal. 5).
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (NRSV)
Christian freedom cannot be defined as permission to do anything we want. Rather, it is the opportunity to do what Christ wants, without fear that our performance will be counted against us. We are free from endless ceremonial laws, sin, and fear. But we are not free in the sense of totally governing ourselves or being totally autonomous from Christ. We are under the restraint of the Holy Spirit and the constraint of the higher law, the law of love. Following the path of legalism means leaving the path of grace, for the two paths cannot converge. Freedom must be used to glorify Christ and serve others , not just to fulfill our personal desires.
(Life Application Bible Commentary: Galatians)
AMEN!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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“For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Cor. 5:21). “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree” (Gal. 3:13). Indeed, as the text of Scripture declares, in order for human beings, who are sinners, to have eternal life the guilt and penalty of sin must be removed. But Jesus does this not only by dying the death we justly deserve but by living the life we should have lived. This means, along with punishment for sins, that we must also have a perfect record of obedience to God’s law. When these two conditions are fulfilled people can be justified or declared righteous, before God.
Amen-- It is fulfilled AND It is finished!
Blessed be His name.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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This is why Jesus fulfilled the law through the life that He lived here on Earth. He was the only one that could ever do it. It was fulfilled in Him and thereby it is fulfilled in us who walk by The Spirit.
He came to do this-- and He did praise God and is our great High Priest.
There is a difference between being fulfilled in us or to say that it can be fulfilled by us It is fulfilled in us
It is fulfilled in us:
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
He was made perfect as a man (fulfilling all righteousness) so that he could become the eternal source of salvation as a high priest for us in the order of Melchizedek.
Heb. 5:9–10 being made perfect. During his childhood, Jesus was not lacking in any godly character quality, but he was lacking in the full experience of having lived a perfect human life, obeying the Father in everything, without sin. The lifelong perfect obedience of Jesus (v. 8; 7:26–28) provides the basis for eternal salvation (2:10; 9:23–28) and for the ultimate “perfection” of those who respond in faith and obedience (10:14; 11:40; 12:23; cf. 7:19; 9:9; 10:1).
He is our perfection, justification, our "all in all"
"The life that I live, I live by the faith of He that Has called, in spirit".
That's good news!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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yahsway
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Romans 8:3 Paul is quoting from the Torah, the Law from Leviticus 19:18
"You shall not take vengence, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, But you shall LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.
Matt 5:17
"Dont think i have come to abolish the Torah or the prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to complete, to make their meaning full."
The Hebrew word Torah literally means "teaching, doctrine" and is rendered in the Septuagint and the New Test as "nomos" means "law".
The Greek has had a more direct and pervasive influence on English and other modern languages than Hebrew has, and this is why in most languages one speaks of the "law" of Moses rather than its correct rendering the "Teaching" of Moses.
It is also part of the reason why the Torah has mistakenly become to be thought of by Christians as legalistic in character(see Rom 3:20, Gal 3:23)
The Greek word for "to complete" is plerosai, literally "to fill". the correct rendering is "to fulfill".
Replacement theology, which wrongly teaches that the church has replaced the Jews as Gods people, understand Matt 5:17 wrongly in 2 ways.
First, Yeshua "fulfilling" the Torah is thought to mean that it is unnecessary to fulfill it now. But there is no logic to the proposition that Yeshuas obeying the Torah does away with our need to obey it.
In fact Paul, whose object in his letter to the Romans is to foster "the obedience that comes from trusting" in Yeshua, teaches that such trusting does not Abolish Torah but confirms it (Rom 1:5, 3:31)
2nd, with identical lack of logic, Yeshua's "fulfilling" the Prophets is thought to imply that no prophesies from the Old Test remain for the Jews. But the Hebrew Bibles promises to the Jews are not abolished in the name of being "fulfilled in Yeshua".
Rather, fulfillment in Yeshua is an added assurance that everything God has promised the Jews will yet come to pass.
Yeshua did not come to abolish but "to make full" the meaning of the Torah (Law) and the ethical demands of the Prophets require.
Thus He came to complete our understanding of the Torah and the Prophets so that we can try more effectively to be and keep (do) what they say to be and keep. Yeshua said if you love Him you would keep His commandments. His commandments, not mans.
Most christians say that No one will be considered righteous by God on the ground of doing the good works the Torah requires. This is manifestly wrong because the most important good work the Torah requires is trusting God, loving Him with all ones heart and soul and strength. (mark 12:28-30)
On what Biblical evedience might one base the conclusion that no one is capable of obeying the Torah? James 2:10 says that a person who keeps the whole law (Torah), yet stumbles at one point, has become guilty of breaking them all. But the "stumbling" spoken of here is Rebellion against keeping a particular command of the Torah while claiming to uphold it.
James is not saying that anyone necessarily rebels Acts 15:10 speaks of Peter objecting to placing on the Gentiles a "yoke which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear." But this "yoke" meant "detailed mechanical rule-keeping, regardless of heart attitude, that some held to the essence of Judaism. This was not the yoke of the Laws of God, but a yoke of LEGALISM prescribed by Men. Yeshua Himself objected to this.
The Torah was given to be obeyed and God expected such obediance to it. That is why Moses said
"This commandment which I command you today is Not to difficult for you, nor is it beyond your grasp... The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your Heart, to do it (Duet 30)
Paul himself even quotes this passage. It is unthinkable that God Instructed the Jewish people to observe a Law that was Impossible to keep, for which the penalty of violation was Death.
The God of Love does not play cruel games.
True the people fell short of keeping the Torah; they sinned. But the Torah itself includes a procedure for dealing with sins, provided they were not committed "with a high hand" that is to say in rebellion, after the manner of James 2:10
This was the sacrifical system which offered forgiveness to a repentant person who brought the required sacrifice.
And so today, we also who break Gods Laws/Torah have Yeshua as our sacrifice and High Priest.
Thus at the time Yeshua died, the Torah provided a framework within which a person might be saved (Mt 19:16-22, Lk 1:6, provided he trusted in God in everything and in no way relied on his own self-righteousness.
The Torah does not set an impossible standard, rather it sets a standard of faith, trusting in God, and of following its system of repentance and sacrifice for obtaining forgiveness from God and restoring a condition of being considered righteous in His sight.
Another misconception of the church is one in which its said that "No one will be considered righteous by God on the ground of the BAD works the Torah requires" Even more ridiculous than the first mistaken interpretation, what this means is that the Torah itself supposedly requires Prideful, self-justifying, Legalistic rule-following.
But the Torah itself inveighs vigorously Against such behavior and the New Test. quotes portions of the Old Test which make that very point!
Furthermore, Paul calls the Torah "holy, just and good". which could NOT be true of a Torah that demanded BAD works or self-Righteousness.
Many Christians seem to have the idea that the Torah was an INFERIOR product of God, that the Messiah Yeshua is in some sense "Better" than the Torah, and that therefore the Torah (Laws, instructions) is Relatively "Bad".
But such an interpretation impugns the very Character of God.
It is tantamount to the 2nd century Heresy of Marcion, who regarded the Old Test as Inferior to the New Test and the God of the Old Test as inferior to the God of the New Test.
Theology based on one or the other of these 3 misinterpretations has taught Christians that the Torah is inferior, inadequate, Legalistic, a producer of Pride, something seperate from Gods Grace, superseded now that Yeshua has come, and of value only as far as it points to the Messiah.
If this were true, anyone who would uphold such a Law must obviously be blind, foolish, or misled. Since Jews uphold the Mosaic Law, it follows from the premises that Jews are blind, foolish or mislead. In this way antisemitism is made virtually a pillar of Christian faith!
No wonder a gospel with such implications is unacceptable to the Jews.
You cant have Grace without the Law. The 2 go hand in hand.
bad self-strength works are produced when sinful people misuse and pervert the Torah, so that instead of regarding it as Gods gracious gift intended both to orient people toward righteousness, God-motivated behavior and at the same time to show them how far short they fall from achieving it, they regard the Torah as a rulebook containing requirements they can meet mechanically, without trusting God or even caring about Him, and can therefore take Great Pride in their own achievements and have great self-satisfaction over how much they have pleased God.
In other words, "works of the law" are indeed "works produced by the Torah" but thru its being used IMPROPERLY. This is what is called "Legalistic observance of Torah commands".
Yeshua set us free from sin, not from Gods Torah/Law. The way it is fulfilled IN us is by our yeilding to Him thru the Holy Spirit and these same Laws written on our Hearts to do them. Not because we have to but because we want to, because of what He did for us.
We want to follow all the commandments of God, because it pleases Him for us to do so.
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Found in Him
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posted
Question:
Is there ANYTHING that this Jesus Cannot do???
Answer:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
"For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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Yiiiiiipppeeeeee! You mean we are free Sister Carol??
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (NRSV)
Christian freedom cannot be defined as permission to do anything we want. Rather, it is the opportunity to do what Christ wants, without fear that our performance will be counted against us. We are free from endless ceremonial laws, sin, and fear. But we are not free in the sense of totally governing ourselves or being totally autonomous from Christ. We are under the restraint of the Holy Spirit and the constraint of the higher law, the law of love. Following the path of legalism means leaving the path of grace, for the two paths cannot converge. Freedom must be used to glorify Christ and serve others , not just to fulfill our personal desires.
(Life Application Bible Commentary: Galatians)
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Found in Him
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Jesus Christ did the impossible FOR US and in realizing the value of this... I'm sitting up writing about it instead of sleeping.
If Jesus simply needed to impute the righteousness of God from His person, there would have been no need for him to live for 33 years. Instead when Herod went to massacre the infants in Bethlehem, Jesus death as an infant would have sufficed for our justification. But this was not the plan of God because to become a perfect high priest and lamb without blemish, Jesus not only had to die for us but he had to live for us.
Hebrews chapters 4 and 5
"we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin ... In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him, being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. (Hebrews 4:11-12& Heb 5:7-8)
Hebrews emphasizes the necessity of Jesus being without sin. He does not mean that Jesus was merely sinless in His person as God but that through temptations in the world He overcame, as a man, and His prayers were heard by God because, as a man, He revered and obeyed God. Next it says he was made perfect. He was made perfect as a man (fulfilling all righteousness) so that he could become the eternal source of salvation as a high priest for us in the order of Melchizedek.
Sinless Spotless "Son of Man" Sinless spotless "Son of God"
He fulfilled All Righteous Requirements of the law through His life "in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us." (Rom 8:3)
Walk in the Spirit!
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(vs 31)Scofield Reference Notes
The sinner establishes the law in its right use and honor by confessing his guilt, and acknowledging that by it he is justly condemned. Christ, on the sinner's behalf, establishes the law by enduring its penalty, death. Cf. Mt 5:17,18.
Matthew 5:17-48
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Jesus' fulfilling of the law was done both for God and for us. When the Rich Young Ruler asked what He must do to attain eternal life Jesus told him to obey the commandments and he will live. The question was about eternal life, not just abundant life, so we know Jesus meant that perfect obedience to God's law was the requirement, that if a person were to hypothetically have kept all the commandments they would not need a savior. But Jesus uses this merely as a way of speaking to demonstrate the impossibility to doing so.
In the presence of Jesus the Young Ruler soon realizes that he has failed to keep the law against coveting and goes away sad. The disciples rightly ask 'who then can be saved' and Jesus answers that 'what is impossible with man is possible with God'. In other words, Jesus does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. "For by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” (Rom 3:19). But " God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us." (Rom 8:3)
Therefore, the problem is not with the law, but that it was weakened by the flesh and therefore could not do what it intended (i.e do this and live). But Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh AND for sin without that weakness so that the righteous requirement of the law might be met (fulfilled) in us.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Found in Him
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Yahsway writes...He did not die to take away the laws of God, but died in our place to take away our Sins.
I thought that statement was worth reading again...
He did not die to take away the laws of God, but died in our place to take away our Sins.
Amen! He came to fulfill the law!
Romans 8
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Fulfilled! It isn't fulfilled by us, but in us.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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yahsway
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posted
Lets take a look at the deliverance of Israel from Egypt and Gods Grace to them. Yes, God showed Grace and Mercy even in the Old Test.
When Yahweh God saw the blood on the doorposts and lintels of the houses of the Hebrews, He passed over them and their lives were saved. They could not earn this salvation by any works, This was Gods Grace to them
Then, He led them out to His Holy Mountain where He gave them His Laws.
He first saved them, then gave then His Laws. They did not have to "obey" any laws for salvation out of Egypt, just put the blood on the doorpost of their houses, and then the laws came later. The Laws of God were NEVER meant to save anyone. They were and still are His instructions on how to live with Him and with our neighbor.
In the same way today, a person coming to the faith in Yeshua cannot "Earn" His grace and mercy. This is a Free Gift from Him. But does this mean Gods Laws have been "done away" with?
No! The Law is established and will stand until heaven and earth pass away. It is our instuction/teachings on how to live/fellowship with God and our neighbor.
The advantage we as believers have today is that the New Covenant is an inward power bearing the Spirit of God Himself, enabling us to Keep God's law.
Yeshua did not come and die to save us from Gods laws, but to save us from Sin.
Though given by God, the Law was powerless to enable people to meet its demand because it had to depend on Sinful human nature to carry them out. This is why one must be Born-again, born in the likeness of Him who paid the price for our sins.
We were once sold under Sin, but bought back by a High costly price, Yeshua dying in our place.
He did not die to take away the laws of God, but died in our place to take away our Sins.
Romans 7:4 speaks of us believers as becoming dead to the law thru the body of Christ. Notice here it is US who have died, not the law. The point is clear, because a death has occurred, old obligations and powers are broken, and we are no longer under a system of Trying to obey the Law In Our Own Strength. We are dead to that system of law. For we can only obey it thru the Power of the Holy Spirit who has now written these same laws on our hearts of flesh.
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becauseHElives
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posted
quote:
Allow me to ask you once again, becauseHELives, does "grace" mean "something that God does for us"?
Eden....yes
grace is that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech, good will, loving-kindness, favour
of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues (this definition is found in the Strong's Concordance)
and Eden no.....
the definition of Grace mean the believer has no ability of his own to please Yahweh.....thus Yahweh Himself comes into the heart of whosoever will and by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues ,,,,, it is all HIM but you and I still have a free will to chose to yield to this influence Yahweh is freely giving......
Yahweh has no programed robot that just automaticly do what is right....
Yahweh has people who put their faith in the work of the cross and the resurrection life of His Son and daily yield to His Holy Spirit that causes them to walk in the paths of righteousness.
You , I or anyone else can not get around taking up our cross daily following after Yahshua..... if you think this work you will miss Yahweh's Eternal Kingdom!
I of myself can do nothing but in Him, in Yahshua I can do all things!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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becauseHElives also wrote quote:
But they expect results! That is the message of Ephesians 2: “For we are His workmanship, created in Yahshua unto good works, which Yahweh has before ordained that we should walk in them” (vs. 10).
These types of Christians definitely will not get any rewards. Plus the parable of the talents seems to say that if these Christians "do absoultely nothing to help the Lord in proclaiming the coming kingdom of God", that their salvation will be taken from them "as if they never had really believed it" and they are appointed a place back with the hypocrites. So that is something to definitely be careful of, and better to do something "just in case".
becauseHElives also wrote quote:
Eden, i am so imperfect it scares me, but i know Yahshua is at work in me, changing me day by day....sometimes i am temped to just quit but the Holy Spirit just keeps moving me forward ...
It's good to hear you say that, becauseHElives; when you add that confession to your exhortations, you won't seem legalistic anymore. You desire to change and become sweeter and more honest and kinder and more considerate than you have been, with the help of the Holy Spirit.
And I also liked that elsewhere you mentioned the ten commandments, which I think every Christian can do, or do their best to do, because the 10 commandments are NOT onerous, but they are fairly easy to do, Amen?
Lastly, you wrote quote:
It's not works, it His love that keeps me moving to the finish line...
The Holy Spirit is so smart and is such a Gentleman, that I absolutely adore being guided by Him.
love, Eden
"Father knows best"
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becauseHElives wrote to Eden quote:
Notice the following: “…for it is God which works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).
Yahweh provides Christians with the will power, faith of Yahshua and motivation to do His good pleasure. Yahweh the Father and Yahshua have gone to great lengths to provide the grace—favor and divine mercy—to help Christians succeed in their calling.
Allow me to ask you once again, becauseHELives, does "grace" mean "something that God does for us"?
If so, how come Christians need to help in its success?
I tend to think that God by grace freely provides salvation, but sanctification, or the "being set apart unto God", is a gradual work between Jesus and the Holy Spirit AND US who are saved.
Only those Christians who are "interested" in being guided by the Holy Spirit will gradually have parts of their life, or their entire life, set apart to be used as a vessel of worship and mercy for the Lord.
And while it is a mystery to me why so many saved Christians are NOT interested in being guides and gradually set apart unto God by the Holy Spirit, I think these disinterested Christians are saved by believing that Jesus died for them, which belief makes them eligible for the free gift of salvation as a free grace gift from God.
And if that Christian continues to believe his whole life about Jesus, then that person is saved, but that person RECEIVES NO REWARDS FROM JESUS, because REWARDS are given by God on a CONDITIONAL BASIS, namely whether I use my Christianity to help preach or otherwise show forth God's kingdom, like a good and faithful servant.
Before we can be a servant, we first have to be saved by grace alone, but to receive rewards we need to cooperate with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And I think THAT is the part that many Christians omit to do, and hence they are saved (if they believe in Jesus until they die), but they show forth little to no change in their personal lives.
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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Eden Notice the following: “…for it is God which works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13). Yahweh provides Christians with the willpower, faith of Yahshua and motivation to do His good pleasure. Yahweh the Father and Yahshua have gone to great lengths to provide the grace—favor and divine mercy—to help Christians succeed in their calling. But they expect results! That is the message of Ephesians 2: “For we are His workmanship, created in Yahshua unto good works, which Yahweh has before ordained that we should walk in them” (vs. 10).
yahsway ....amen on your comment
Eden, i am so imperfect it scares me, but i know Yahshua is at work in me, changing me day by day....sometimes i am temped to just quite but the Holy Spirit just keeps moving me forward ....
it's not works, it His love that keeps me moving to the finish line...
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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yahsway
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Eden, actually the word for Torah that the 70 Jewish scribes who translated the Old Test (Septuagent) is "Instructions/Teachings". The only word they could use for the translation was the word "Law".
But the The Laws of God in Hebrew thought means Instructions or teachingss.
Also, there are a lot of "Ifs" in the old and New Test scriptures such as
"If My People, who are called By My name, humble themselves ect..
So there are conditions laid out by Yahweh God that you could call the Law/Teachings/Instructions.
So in that sense, Yes, God requires of us "to do" some things.
When we read the word "keep" in the scriptures, this means "to do".
"Those who "keep" the commandments of God..."
In the book of Acts regarding the Jerusalem council on what to do with all those Gentiles coming to the Faith of Yeshua, James lays out the Noahide laws which was always there for any Gentile who wanted to join with Israel in the worship of the One true God before the time of Yeshua.
They, knowing the scriptures in the OT about "circumcision of heart", did not want to burden the Gentiles with the circumcision of the flesh.
So they laid out the Noahide laws for the Gentiles turning to God, and said they could hear the rest of Gods Teachings from the Old Test because it was read in the synagouges in every city each Sabbath (Acts15:21)
In this way, the Gentiles could learn of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, also thru the reading of the prophets could understand more fully about the Savior Yeshua. The Jerusalem council did not just give the Gentiles the Noahide laws and leave them to themselves.
Paul quotes several times in the New Test that he had a good conscience, that he did not break the laws of God or do anything against the traditions of his upbringing.
Of course, many accused him falsely of doing so, thats why James and Peter had him go and take a Nazerite vow and pay for the others that were taking vows. If this was not to be done, and the Laws of God had been "done away with", here was Pauls opportunity to say NO. But he did not.
It was the Gnostics, creeping into the church of Pauls day that was teaching that the God of the Old Test was a "big bad God, and that the laws of God were irrelevant, but the made up laws and traditions of their own.
For example, they forbid men to marry women, they forbid the eating of meat and only ate vegetables, they claimed that Yeshua was not God in the flesh, they forbide and judged those keeping the Feasts and Festivals of God, the new moon and sabbaths(Feast Days of Yahweh). And a lot of their ideology has carried on into some asemblies of our day.
Yeshua did not come to do away with Gods Laws but to fill them up to the fullest. We have no need now for a high priest to offer up animal blood sacrifices on our behalf, Yeshua is our sacrifice, our new high priest. He extends His grace to us who believe in Him, and so we walk as He walked with the help of the Holy Spirit.
if a person is not saved, or being saved, then that person is under the law. When a person becomes saved, he is under Grace, but the laws of God are still there, but being under Grace, we now have that High Priest to go to so that if we break His Laws, commandments, He is our advocate with the Father and pleads for us. We have forgiveness.
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Eden
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hello, becauseHelives, you wrote quote:
The meaning of grace in the New Testament has nothing to do with abolishing Yahweh’s laws.
False teachers who promote “grace” over obedience are unaware that the New Testament was written for those whom Yahweh calls to assume roles of great responsibility in His kingdom.
Would you agree with the statements that:
"law" means that God requires us something to do for Him, and
"grace" means that God does something for us?
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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What Does the New Testament Teach About Law And Grace?
What is the meaning of grace?
Does it nullify—“do away with”—the law?
Is grace a “license” to sin?
Does “not under the law” mean grace has replaced it—and removed any need for Christians to produce good works?
What did Yahshua and His apostles teach?
What does the Bible really say?
What is the New Testament teaching on “law and grace”?
Is it one or the other—law versus grace—or both—law and grace?
This is a subject of great controversy, leaving many confused. This need not be. Here is the plain Bible teaching!
The meaning of grace in the New Testament has nothing to do with abolishing Yahweh’s laws.
False teachers who promote “grace” over obedience are unaware that the New Testament was written for those whom Yahweh calls to assume roles of great responsibility in His kingdom.
These false teachers misunderstand because Yahweh has neither opened their minds nor given them His Holy Spirit, which is necessary to comprehend His truth.
The Christian calling (Rom. 8:29-30) is based on grace—unmerited pardon of past sins and forgiveness upon genuine repentance. Christians understand that the very salvation offered to them is a gift, and that they must continue to live a lifetime of obedience (Acts 5:32, John 14:15) and overcoming.
The Law in Perspective
Most religionists claim that Yahweh’s law was abolished by Yahshua’s sacrifice. They think that mankind is no longer burdened by the stringent requirements of that “harsh law” that stands in their way of freedom—of “having a good time.”
But the Apostle Paul wrote, in Romans 7:7, “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.”
Most churchmen have traditionally condemned the law while absolving sin. However, it is not the law that is at fault, but sin. On our own, we cannot discover Yahweh’s perfect law. Yahweh has to reveal and teach it to us.
Leaders of professing Christianity insist that Yahweh’s spiritual law—the Ten Commandments—is done away. They call it the “law of Moses,” claiming that it was abolished by Yahshua’s sacrifice. But they do not know the difference between the Levitical sacrificial rituals, the law of Moses and the law of Yahweh.
The Ten Commandments were not called the law of Moses, but rather the law of
Yahweh.
The law of Moses consisted of:
(1) the civil laws—the statutes and judgments that Moses relayed to the people from God, recorded in Exodus 21-23 and the remaining books of the Law—and
(2) the ritualistic laws (Greek: ergon) added later, summarized in Hebrews 9:10. These ordinances regulated the Levitical sacrifices (Lev. 1-7) and related duties. Ergon means “works,” as in the “works of the law” (Gal. 2:16). This referred to the labor involving Levitical rituals abolished by Christ’s sacrifice.
The Ten Commandments were never part of the law of Moses or the Levitical sacrificial system. The civil laws and sacrifices were based on
Yahweh’s Commandments, which make up the core of
Yahweh’s laws. Thus, the Ten Commandments precede and transcend every lesser law based upon them—statutes, judgments, precepts and ordinances.
Most professing Christians falsely brand the Ten Commandments as the “Old Covenant.” However, the Old Covenant was based on the Ten Commandments, which preceded and transcended the Old Covenant.
Consider this analogy: The idea promoted by most professing Christians—that
Yahweh’s spiritual law, the Ten Commandments, has been abolished—is as ridiculous as claiming that the physical laws of gravity and inertia are no longer enforced. Theologians cannot negate
Yahweh’s law any more than scientists can void the laws of gravity and inertia.
How did the leaders of the New Testament Church view the laws of
Yahweh?
Paul wrote, “Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good” (Rom. 7:12).
The Apostle John wrote, “For this is the love of ]
Yahweh that we keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous” (I John 5:3).
And Yahshua summed up the matter, saying, “…if you will enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matt. 19:17).
In Matthew 7:21, He also said, “Not everyone that says unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven”!
Yahshua and the apostles did not dismiss
Yahweh’s law. Counterfeit Christianity took this drastic step in the first century—the world has blindly followed ever since.
The “Grace” of False Christianity
Let’s examine traditional Christianity’s teaching of grace. It teaches that the Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments. It maintains that Yahshua came to establish a “new covenant” containing only grace and promises—liberty to do whatever one pleases. Law is not included in their package. In their own minds, these creative religionists have devised a way to “have a good time” and have a clear conscience. They had to eliminate the source of their gnawing guilt. The solution was simple: “Grace alone ‘saves’ men. The burden of commandment-keeping is no longer necessary.”
This diabolical teaching would lead you to believe that the law of Yahweh is harsh and cruel. It proclaims that the fault of the Old Covenant was with the law, and since Yahweh gave the law, the fault must have been His. Read what Yahshua says to those who follow these false precepts: “Howbeit in vain do you worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of
Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men…Full well you reject the commandment of Yahweh, that you may keep your own tradition” (Mark 7:7-9).
Notice the warning that Yahweh inspired in the book of Jude: “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Master God, and our Savior Yahshua” (Jude 3-4).
Even before the New Testament was completely written, ungodly men had crept into the Church in an attempt to corrupt it by turning grace into lasciviousness. This was precisely the false gospel taught by Simon Magus, Nicholas of Samaria, Cerinthus and other “founders” of counterfeit Christianity.
Lasciviousness means “license to sin.” It could also be defined as “unrestrained liberty” or “abuse of privilege.” In essence, this meant license to do what seems right in one’s own eyes, according to one’s own conscience.
Just as Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24) and others turned Yahweh’s grace into license to disobey His law, this same attitude permeates the minds of most professing Christians today.
The universal message from most pulpits falsely tells people that Yahshua abolished His Father’s law—but your Bible says otherwise. No one can be born into Yahweh’s kingdom unless he completely submits to Yahweh’s authority.
Grace—The True Definition
Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines grace as “favor, kindness and mercy.” The ecclesiastical usage is defined as “divine mercy and forgiveness.” No mention is made about grace being license to disobey God’s law. To be “under grace” means to be extended mercy and forgiveness as a result of sincere repentance and resolve to obey God.
This is explained further in Roman 6:14-15: “For sin shall not have dominion over you for you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”
Many misunderstand the concept of “under the law,” which means under the penalty of the law.
Notice Galatians 5:18: “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” You are under the penalty of the law if you violate it as a way of life.
But a person led by Yahweh’s Spirit will strive to follow that law. When he occasionally sins, he repents and is forgiven (I John 1:8-10). By virtue of obedience and grace, he is not under the penalty of the law.
When an individual seeks to obey Yahweh and come under the “umbrella” of grace, the blood of Christ justifies, or forgives, all past transgressions. Repentance shows Yahweh the direction a Christian chooses to take from that time forward. Having been made right with Yahweh by His mercy and forgiveness, a Christian embarks on a new course in life—he is saved by Yahshua’s life, not His death!
Consider! Only if Yahshua has risen from the dead can His Spirit guide and strengthen new converts, for it is the Holy Spirit that leads Christians. Paul wrote, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” (Rom. 8:14).
This means that Yahshua, as our living, active High Priest in Heaven, sends the Holy Spirit to those whom the Father calls and begets. As High Priest, Yahshua is our living Intercessor and Advocate, who sees us through life as we seek to overcome and endure to the end. The fact that Yahshua is alive allows Him to function as an Advocate for Christians. In this way, we are saved by His life. Repentance is a continual state of mind. Thus, forgiveness is also continual. Also, it is the Spirit of the living Christ in Christians that will change them at the resurrection (Rom. 8:14-17), so that they can receive eternal life.
Romans 6:23 explains that the wages of sin is death. Upon repentance, baptism and conversion, a Christian is forgiven by the blood of Yahshua and immediately saved from the penalty of PAST sins. So, in one sense, the person has been “saved,” at that moment, from death.
There are two more applications of when and how a person is saved. The word salvation is derived from the word saved. So, the second way is the most obvious—salvation at the resurrection upon Yahshua’s Return (I Cor. 15:50-55; I Thes. 4:13-18).
The third way one is saved is that he is “being saved.” No one receives salvation in this life without first undergoing much trial, testing, learning, growing and overcoming. Salvation is an ongoing process—throughout one’s lifetime.
Notice what Paul wrote in Romans 5: “Much more then being justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to Yahweh by the death of His Son, much more being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life” (vs. 9-10).
Salvation results from grace—unmerited pardon. The calling to and the gift of repentance are not earned by works. Yahweh’s grace is not earned by works. All that human beings have earned is death. To be under grace does not mean that we have already achieved salvation. It means we have been given unmerited pardon and are in the process of overcoming and enduring. Those who endure to the end of this physical existence are saved—saved from eternal death. No one can boast that he has achieved salvation in this life. “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (Matt. 24:13). Having endured and overcome means that one has “qualified.” It also means that one can disqualify himself by failing to endure or overcome. Yet, the calling, the justification—this grace is a gift. Salvation results from Yahweh’s grace.
The false idea that “once under grace, we are already saved” is not founded upon scripture. Grace is Yahweh’s willingness to forgive past sins, as summarized in Ephesians 1:7: “…in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.”
Now examine a key scripture: “For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9). The faith “not of yourselves,” instrumental to salvation, is not your own human faith. It is the gift of Yahweh—the faith of Yahshua in us (Gal. 2:20). Yahshua, our High Priest, looks down and observes our sincerity and effort, and imparts His faith to us through His grace—divine favor and mercy. Those who receive this faith have no grounds for boasting of their works.
Notice the following: “…for it is God which works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13). Yahweh provides Christians with the willpower, faith of Yahshua and motivation to do His good pleasure. Yahweh the Father and Yahshua have gone to great lengths to provide the grace—favor and divine mercy—to help Christians succeed in their calling. But they expect results! That is the message of Ephesians 2: “For we are His workmanship, created in Yahshua unto good works, which Yahweh has before ordained that we should walk in them” (vs. 10).
How plain the Bible becomes when we let it interpret itself! It is ironic that most professing Christians stop at this point and miss the very core of Paul’s statement.
The real issue here is not grace or works. Neither is it grace opposed to works. Nor is it grace in the place of works. It is simply this: Grace followed by works.
Here are some vital gifts and tools that God gives us in our quest to succeed and overcome:
• Grace—justification and forgiveness.
• Grace—Yahweh’s giving of mercy and favor.
• The faith of Yahshua in us.
• Yahweh’s Spirit, through which we receive the willpower and motivation to forge ahead.
Yahweh extends grace and help to His people, but He expects us to grow in good works, walking in them as a way of life. The law of Yahweh is the standard or benchmark that directs the paths of true Christians. Keeping them develops character. Doing these things shows Yahweh that the grace He has extended to us has not been in vain.
If we follow Yahweh’s grace with works, Yahshua’s description of those who will rise at the first resurrection could apply to us: “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yahshua” (Rev. 14:12).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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becauseHElives
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Watchman Nee....1903–1972
He was a Chinese Christian author and church leader during the early 20th Century.
He spent the last 20 years of his life in prison and was severely persecuted by the Communists in China.
Together with Wangzai, Zhou-An Lee, Shang-Jie Song, and others, Nee founded the The Church Assembly Hall, later which would be also known as the "Local churches" .
Watchman Nee became a Christian in 1920 at age 17 and began writing in the same year.
In 1921, he met the British missionary M. E. Barber, who was a great influence on him.
Through Miss Barber, Nee was introduced to many of the Christian writings which were to have a profound influence on him and his teachings.
Nee attended no theological schools or Bible institutes. His knowledge was acquired through studying the Bible and reading various Christian spiritual books.
During his 30 years of ministry, beginning in 1922, Nee traveled throughout China planting churches among the rural communities and holding Christian conferences and trainings in Shanghai.
In 1952 he was imprisoned for his faith; he remained in prison until his death in 1972.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchman_Nee
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Keeper
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You said when you opened this Grace and Law subject, that Watchman Nee (whoever he is) said.
When reading the text it sounds more like Eden said. Which is it please ?
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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I agree with you that we must continue to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
But what does Jesus also say that we must continue to do if we are His disciple?.
We must continue in His Word(abiding in His doctrine).......right?
Our Faith in Jesus is evidenced by our trust in His word and our willingness to obey it..........agree?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Found in Him
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When one hears the good news of God's love for them, something happens. For God did so love us that He gave His only begotten Son. He sent His Son from Heaven because the blood of bulls and lambs could not pay the price of the "sin debt" that man had created.
We were a lost and a dying humanity. God had so many times sent prophets of which the people rejected and killed. He sent His Son and commanded us to "Listen to Him" He was the express image and representation of God Himself, but was accused of blasphemy, being a wine bibber and a friend of sinners. He was rejected and accused, a man familiar with many a sorrow.
He was on every account tested and tried for no other reason than for "who He was" but He didn't give up. He didn't turn away. He didn't say "Father bring me back up because they do not believe in me". He sat outside of the city on a hill and wept over Jerusalem. He said "How I would have gathered you unto myself-- but you would not"...
He laid down His life anyways. He walked that last mile up the hill to Calvary. He walked those last steps thinking of you.. for there was no other way for you to be redeemed back to The Father and He knew it. Yes it was The Father's will, but He laid His life down for you.
When one believes this with the heart, the message grips the heart with God's love. Christ is God's gift to be received as precious and costly. He paid a great price upon that tree and is entitled to Lordship in our hearts. It's a place of honor and of Kingship. He is worthy to be accepted with respect and a loyal love that builds a relationship of a lifetime. A relationship that will grow into an everlasting walk with the One who created you, who knows and loves you more than anyone ever could.
Acceptance of The Lord breeds faith and love that will conquer any situation this life could ever bring.
God's grace has come to us because of a very high cost Jesus paid at Calvary.
Blessed be His name.
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~To Him That is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.~ Jude 24
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Eden
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I like what Watchman Nee said about grace and law.
He said:
"Law" is when God requires us to do something for HIM.
"Grace" is when God does something for US. (period). In all matters of "grace", WE HAVE TO DO NOTHING. God alone can do all the "grace".
So what do we receive by grace from God: SALVATION.
Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto many.
Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
All people have to do with a free gift is RECEIVE IT. For the rest WE DO NOTHING, EVER, since it is received entirely by grace, meaning that God ALONE does something FOR US for free.
So how do we receive this free gift of salvation by grace?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Lord from heaven who was implanted into Mary and that this Jesus died for our sins, if that person CONTINUES TO BELIEVE THAT Jesus died for him, that person remains "under grace" and is "guaranteed the free gift of eternal life like Jesus had", given entirely by grace, which means that God ALONE does something for US and all we have to do is receive it and continue to believe in it.
But if during our later lifetime we STOP believing that Jesus was the Lord from heaven implanted into Mary and that Jesus died for our sins, then that person PUTS HIMSELF BACK UNDER THE LAW and he is NO LONGER UNDER GRACE.
Because grace is only extended in response to "active belief that Jesus did and was those things" and if I "die still believing that", then God BY GRACE ONLY GIVES me the FREE GIFT of eternal life.
"Grace" means "God Himself does something FOR US", and "law" means that "we have to do something for God"...
love, Eden
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