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Topic: IS WATER BAPTISM A TESTIMONY?
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bluefrog
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MICHAEL...Pardon my ignorance, I don't get it about the dirty water. You know us frogs, we like it all.
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Michael Harrison
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Here'z another question: How can filthy water accomplish anything useful?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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bluefrog
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BETTY LOUISE...I don't think you will find any scripture saying that baptism was performed by sprinkling, however, there is a good deal of proof that they did.
I expect that in the early times there were places where it was pretty tough to find a body of water large enough to dunk ya in as there is the same problem now.
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Michael Harrison
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Betty, I fellowshipped in a Lutheran Church in my early Christian years, Missouri Synod, but charismatic. They sprinkled babies. Some other denominations do that, like Methodists, Episco's, I believe. Sometimes I see it happening on televised services. It is precious to families, even if it is not their child being baptized. But again, it is part of the ceremonial setting which essentially differentiates one denomination from another, together with some doctrinal differences, which often don't amount to anything broad and wide.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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It does seem to have value. Nevertheless it is still symbolism. I am not against it. I am for, however, recognizing it as a show of committment, which is what you are saying. So agreed! But I want to stress the point that it is not what saves, changes, or edifies, for the sake of the 'baseball' fans, not so much for you or me. For the world looks at such and thinks that if they 'do' it, they will become members of the family of God. That is why dead bone-dry churches exist. There are people who actually think ceremony adopts them into the family of God, and their heart never sees Him.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Betty Louise
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Yes Betty, and as I recall, you would let your pastor be your mentor, instead of Christ.
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Michael this is not true.
I said I trust my Pastor more then you. Jesus is God. My Pastor is my Pastor and Teacher, but if he says anything that contradicts the Bible, I believe the Bible first and foremost.
betty
I do see people in the Bible being immersed in water. Is there any record of any baby being sprinkled with water for Baptized? I honestly want to know.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
When one is baptised in His Name, they are baptized into Him....that is(Im sure youd agree)........only if God has determined their heart to be sincere. I think we can see, if we really think about it for a moment, that baptism at its core, is surely intended to be resourced as a means for prompting a sincere and faithful response towards God------coupled with the hope that there will ultimately be a real consecration to God in Christ.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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I don't know why it is so hard to relate! It is because people don't get something that they cannot see, perhaps. Therefore people tend towards these 'symbolic' gestures to get satisfaction. But symbolic gestures do not satisfy. They only demonstrate before men, something that neither they, nor 'men' understand. That is why they do it.
But to be baptized in His name means something distinct. It does not mean to baptize someone while making the statement that they are doing this 'in His name'. In such a case they are making a pronouncement that they are indeed doing such, when it is only a 'show', or 'shew'. And in fact, they are committing an act, of 'doing' something, and that with the 'label' of doing it in HIS name. It is just that. It is a label. For to be baptized in His name, one has to not distinguish HIM, from His name. And there is no way to relate that, except than to simply put it out there.
When one is baptized in HIS name, he or she is baptized into HIM. No water is involved. Water after all is simply 'symbolic' of HIS Spirit. And there is quite a difference between being baptized in water, and being baptized in HIS Spirit. By so being, one is baptized in HIS name, not baptized by something with the label of such. ![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I feel that if that is the way that you view baptism it is because you are looking more on the outward elements. It is not all about being baptized IN "water"........it is about being baptized IN "the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost". Due to the advent of different denominations, and because of their never ending arguments over baptism details(such as infant baptism, full-immersion vs. sprinkling), baptism has been reduced to no more than just a symbolic rite and is often closely associated with local church membership.
I am saddened to see that when baptism is administered in many churches, that though there usually is a reference to the water not having the power to cleanse of sin, there usually is not a counterbalance with the bold declaration that it is by the Name of Jesus and faith in His Name that we receive forgiveness of sin and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Another thing.......it is very likely that in the early days of baptism in the Lords Name that there also was a question that was asked by the baptizer that verified the readiness/consent of the baptisee to become a disciple of the Lord Jesus.....then after that comfirmation they would have been baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Yes Betty, and as I recall, you would let your pastor be your mentor, instead of Christ. I did say however that it is a 'symbol'. But ask yourself, does a symbolic motion accomplish what Christ has already done? Nay! Faith accomplishes what Christ has already done, by transforming one into a new creature, yet not so, for we don't transform ourselves, but 'realize' our transformation, through faith! ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Betty Louise
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Being baptized is not being legalistic, unless you believe it is a requirement for salvation. Being baptized is a symbol of how salvation does away with our own self and begin a new life in Christ. The old spirit goes down in the water and we come a new creature in Christ.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
BETTY...Yep, I don't think getting boys circumsised now days has anything to do with religion, it is for two reasons:
1) Health.
2) Doctors boat payment.
Bluefrog, LOL! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
For real, if one wants to be clean, all he has to do is practice personal hygene, and wash.
I got on an elevator once with some Jewish fellas. Their conversation seems to have been held for my benefit. Mind you, neither of us had ever seen each other before, but the exchange went like this, "I sure am glad I am circumcised. I like to be clean."
Now, I could see that they were saying it for my benefit, and not as a matter of casual conversation. I was amused. Too bad I didn't know anything to say. I think of things 'after the fact' usually. But I hat ta wonder, were they testing me to see if I would be respond by saying that I agreed? In that case they were quizzing me about my ethnicity. What a funny way to go about it; but then, even though it wasn't discreet, it nevertheless was. It would have been a benign way to extract an answer without asking directly. Those were my thoughts. I could just be imagining though.
And fwiw, wildbe'z answer, I believe, is more correct concerning baptism. And I don't see how baptism is a commandment. I mean, some people see the Lord's supper as a commandment. But Paul said:
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
In other words, they took to legalist concepts thinking that they effected something regarding faith and salvation. And Paul was indicating that by doing so they were diluting the Spirit and power of God.
He goes on to say that they had good intentions:
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
Then he said:
Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
This he said indicating that he now stood in doubt of their spirituality. And he longed for Christ to be formed in them, signifying that he longed for them to outgrow the legalist concepts, that they might 'abide' in the Spirit, and the finished work of Christ. For their 'good intentions' were not anything. And the observance of days and cerimonial acts was not the way this would become known to them. And who, in all these denominations surrounding us, does not think that the cermonial things that they 'do', do not accomplish some sort of spirituality on their behalf. That, is legalism. It does not add anything to the finished work. However, faith does, because it receives. And it is about faith, and faith only, because as Paul said, "It was accounted to Abraham for righteousness."
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bluefrog
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ONE IN CHRIST....I am agreeing with you still. You were clear enough, it was probably me that wasn't.
MICHAEL...You said to Eden: And as far as I am concerned, those who baptised in water after the ascention were only being legalistic.
Me don't think so. (How does that grab ya?) Me thinks that when Jesus said "go baptise the whole cotton-pickin world", or somethin like that
He meant waaaayyyy up til I come a knockin.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
I would say, "No, circumcision is not required for people of faith." The matter of circumcision was definitively decided as not necessary for believers in Jesus by the council at Jerusalem, following the Antioch debate.
But eden, the reason circumcision was wrong was because it was not necessary to 'keep the law'. The implication is that anything 'legalistic' is something of an attempt to keep the letter of the law.
From time to time I realize just how little I know about the act of baptism. It seems to have become prominent at the time that John the Baptist was raised up. And Jesus said it was necessary 'for HIM' to fulfill all righteousness. And as far as I am concerned, those who 'baptized' in water after the ascention were only being legalistic.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Bluefrog,
I am not sure I was clear enough on my view on baptism. The point that I was trying to stress is that I think it may be careless to consider baptism to be "a cherry on top thing" by virtue of the fact that is is a clear command of Jesus.
I am not going to pretend that I understand all the ins and outs of baptism, but I am convinced of this...........that baptism does appear(biblically) to have been an ordained means that a new believer was added to the church and recognized as a new disciple of the Lord Jesus. To have refused baptism, I am confident, would have been a sure sign that one was not in agreement with the word that was preached.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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bluefrog
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ONEINCHRIST...Subject: Is water baptism a testimony?
I must agree with you, that baptism is a direction of Jesus and a Cherry on Top Thang.
To most Christians I believe that they demand baptism when saved and want to share their new life recognition with anyone wishing to witness it. In the flesh life we are born but don't celebrate our birth until a year later, and then each year until death. With your new life in the Kingdom you celebrate at time of birth. I wonder why no one has ever thought of celebrating their second life birthdays?
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oneinchrist
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Hi Bluefrog,
I believe that baptism was turned into "a cherry on top thing". I do not believe that the bible shows it to be that way. It should be viewed as nothing less than obedience to Jesus' command that is just as alive today as it ever was. As long as the word is being spread to all nations, baptism in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost should be following suit.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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WildB
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Rom.2
[29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
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That is all.....
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bluefrog
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BETTY...I think it has pretty well been agreed on here, that baptism is sorta like a cherry on top thang. It's like getting a new car with a paint job, or shoes with strings in them, or a cut on a child with a bandaid with poo bear on it.
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Betty Louise
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I forgot but we actually paid the doctor to do our grandson. My daughter and her first husband did not have the money.
Back to Baptism. I don't believe it is a salvation issue but Jesus did it and that is good enough for me.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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bluefrog
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BETTY...Yep, I don't think getting boys circumsised now days has anything to do with religion, it is for two reasons:
1) Health.
2) Doctors boat payment.
MEN...get your prostate checked if you don't want to go thru a second circumsision...or not look like other guys. hehe
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Betty Louise
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We had our son circumcised when he was born. My sister's husband did not and as an adult, he had to have it done because of complications. My husband had it done as a child and he was not from a Christian home. I think most Americans do it so that the boys will look like other boys and for sanitary reasons.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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bluefrog
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Isn't it interesting that even to this day young lads in all countries are being circumcised. The original purpose was to identify a Jew and to represent cleanliness.
Might be interesting to note to some that if you are a Christian you can baptise a new believer.
As for circumcision, I would pass on that and rightfully so, I just had eye surgery and it didn't turn out well, my vision is blurry. Rivit ! Wouldn't do it if I could see either, just had to throw that in for grins. Not only that, if you were circumcised, then had prostate surgery, they have it all to do over again.
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
So, therefore, if someone comes to you and says he wants to be circumcised, what do you say?
I would say, "No, circumcision is not required for people of faith." The matter of circumcision was definitively decided as not necessary for believers in Jesus by the council at Jerusalem, following the Antioch debate.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
So in those days, after 1,500 years or so of Mosaic law, the act of water baptism signified
Well eden, signified implies the same as what I said. I said 'symbolism'. I think it is only ceremony, except, there is a blessing to it. However, what is important is to be baptized into Christ. Essentially that is the same as being "Born Again." However, God is willing, it seems, to take us into deeper, eye opening experiences with His Spirit as we make the surrender of belief. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is just that. And then there is the sanctification of faith, (that is, which is the result of faith).
And this probably answers you too, 1N, and bluefrog.
Yea, I was afraid you went out into the road and got run over bluefrog! ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) Maybe you just had a good holiday. Maybe you are too fat to make it to the road, we hope.
Personally, If I were a pastor, I am sure I would not be in a argument about 'sprinkle or dunk', for I would not think either to be entirely important. For neither deepens the revelation of who HE is to you. It is for an "outward" sign, which is essentially what you were saying bluefrog.
I was not baptized for many years. One day I decided I would be, and was dunked, in a cow pond, at a Christian commune. There was a blessing. I cannot describe it. But I never thought it necessary then, neither do I now. But if people want it, ok. So, therefore, if someone comes to you and says he wants to be circumcised, what do you say? After all, he might want to be baptized, and circumcised. Then you know what, he might want to offer a sacrifice. I mean, where does it stop. Baptism is not of faith. It is ceremony, for show. It is ok as long as it is thought of as such.
For salvation is of faith, and that means believing, not performing something to accomplish it.
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bluefrog
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Handles we put on subjects such as Baptised, Saved, Born Again....don't they all mean the same thing ?
Baptised can also mean submerged in water, sprinkled in water or something you are going to do/ or did do to show others you are Baptised, Saved, Born Again...doesn't it ?
Of course, being baptised is important to a new born Christian. How could it not be important?
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote to eden: quote:
Water baptism is symbolic of our being baptized into Christ!
As I just stated in the post above this, in those days in Israel and in Syria water baptism probably had a very serious meaning of "severing from the Mosaic system" and "adopting the Jesus of Nazareth system", as in:
Deuteronomy 18
15 The LORD your God will raise up to you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like me; to Him shall you listen.
So in Israel and in Syria-Damascus, taking the water baptism was signalling that I was making a serious break from the Mosaic system into the Jesus system.
On the other hand, the Bible talks about the baptism of repentance that John did:
Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and he preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
So it may be that this ritual, the baptism of repentance, was well-known, considering that multitudes came to John to be baptized:
Matthew 3
5 Then went out to him {John} Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region roundabout Jordan,
6 And they were baptized of him in he Jordan, confessing their sins.
So it may be that the customary water baptism was the so-called water baptism of repentance, in which the new believer undergoes water baptism while confessing his or her sins, and that they called the baptism of repentance.
So while I sowed a fine tale about how this water baptism signified a firm, and serious and dangerous, break with the Mosaic system and into teh Jesus system, Biblically the water baptism was probably closely associatged with this baptism of repentance.
love, Eden
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Eden
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hello, oneinchrist, you wrote quote:
I do believe that Jesus does intend baptism as an urgency for new believers to come foward boldly confessing their faith. Being willing to be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost expresses faith/agreement in the same.
If we are sincere in our confession I believe that Jesus will then authorize the Holy Ghost to minister to us.
And we should remember that the USA Today is not Israel "in those days".
The church of Jesus "tore away from the Mosaic fabric" in that the Mosaic system ended and the new man began, who was neither Jew nor Greek, but a third or new kind of man, one indwelled and guided by the Holy Spirit.
So in those days, after 1,500 years or so of Mosaic law, the act of water baptism signified to all the unbelieving Jews and believing Jews watching the water baptism, IT WAS A WEIGHTY DECISION to do the water baptism in Israel "in those days".
Whereas, here in the USA Today, we are all Westerners and where do we have our WATER BAPTISM but IN THE CHURCH where ONLY believers can see it, and we think it signifies something!
with love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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In one instance Jesus says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".......in another instance Jesus instructs the disciples to baptize new believers in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
I do not believe that Jesus intends baptism as an urgency to quickly get to water or else...........
I do believe that Jesus does intend baptism as an urgency for new believers to come foward boldly confessing their faith. Being willing to be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost expresses faith/agreement in the same.
If we are sincere in our confession I believe that Jesus will then authorize the Holy Ghost to minister to us.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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eden: Does water baptism magically make one righteous? What is the point of anything that does not? Jesus said it was necessary for Him to fulfill all righteousness. By the way, Jesus fulfilled all righteousness for us. That includes being baptized. The trick is in how it is transferred to us. But getting baptized is not how. HE did it to fulfill all righteousness, therefore we do not 'do' it to accomplish that. Amen! ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Amen!
Water baptism is symbolic of our being baptized into Christ! It is Christ into whom we must be baptized. Otherwise, we are 'without' [meaning, outside of].
Looky here: Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Does anyone see? It says 'one' baptism. If one depends upon getting soaked by worldly water, he had better hope that the same is the 'one' baptism. But I encourage you to look a little deeper. That baptism is nothing but a soaking. It is not the 'one' baptism that changes a man. It adds nothing to the finished work of Christ. So I am glad that everybody liked to do it, back then, but it was done in the heat of the moment. It is however, a ceremonial blessing, a 'tradition' that defines the faith, at least to the world.
But now, I lost where I posted this next commentary, so I am including it here:
quote:
No man is able to keep Jesus's smallest commandments. All we can do is cry out to God: "Lord have mercy on me a sinner", and that's IT!!!
Then throw out scripture, for it is impotent! …And abide in sin, for that is the only conclusion that can be reached when one does not believe the word. For as it is written:
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; [in all manner of behavior] “All” manner of behavior includes what? What exceptions does it provide for? What exceptions does “All” allow for?
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
It does not say 'pretend'.
And where does bad behavior come from, but lusts? (1Pe 1:14) “As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts, in your ignorance. “
Not fashioning means not fulfilling! Therefore which lusts are not included in “All” behavior, that one can ‘obey’ them? Does 'all' not mean all?
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation [manner of behavior] received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
And how precious is the Blood, if we willingly trample it in defiance of scripture, justifying 'not' being Holy?
Moreover, were not the Israelites slain in the wilderness for ‘disobedience’? (And that for an example)
So:
23 “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. “
Let’s read on….
24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
And what does he end up saying? He says that with his flesh, he serves the ‘law’ of sin. But what about this. It is about a ‘choice’. Therefore he is saying in this passage of Romans that he either submits to the Law of God, or he submits to the law of the flesh, and makes excuses, denying the word, and the Lord who brought him.
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bluefrog
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EDEN...I have already attempted to answer your questions on this thread...Dec. 19, 2008 at 12:33pm.
The speed factor that you are concerned about are simply because of the times, which I pretty much explained. Have you ever been to a church where around noon, just before closing, the invitation is given ? If the pastor goes past noon people start getting upset. If he asked you to stay for a baptism how many would leave?
Sad but true. Don't you agree ?
Eden, the baptism is the Cherry on Top sort of thang....for ALL to see ! The few moments taken privately or in church, or where ever, to ask Christ to take you usually are done quietly but once it is done don't you want to shout it out to the troops ?
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
Just a little observation: Philip did not 'suggest' that the eunuch 'be baptized'. The eunuch 'asked'.
Yes, but Philip was not at all surprised that the eunuch asked him to water baptize the eunuch.
So both the eunuch and Philip, and Peter also, knew something that I'm not sure that we still know today WHAT it was that the eunuch, Philip, and Peter believed about water baptism. What did Philip, the eunuch and Peter think water baptism so right after believing or right after the Holy Spirit fell on the Cornelius people, what did this prompt water baptism signify to them?
bluefrog, what does this church that you described in your "reasons", say the water baptism is for, even in its "politically correct delayed condition"?
love, Eden
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Eden
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okay, bluefrog, I liked your "reasons" and if I may ask, eventhough these "reasons" DELAYED the water baptism, WHAT DID YOU SAY THIS BAPTISM WAS FOR OR SIGNIFIED?
And whatever you say it signified, is that also what water baptism signified to Peter and to Philip?
thank you,
Eden
"Be blessed, all you Christians"!
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bluefrog
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TIME OF BAPTISM...tick,tick,tick,tick,....
EDEN and others, you say that way back then it seemed to be pretty important to be baptised Pronto! Yep, sure did didn't it.
Wanna know why the baptism doesn't usually happen so fast now days ? the truth ?
Reasons: 1) the water in the baptistry has to be warmed up. 2) the hour is noon and everyone needs to git. 3) the pastor is wearing his good suit and so (maybe) is the one to be baptised...gotta change. 4) they always baptise the night after the sunday morning when the person came up front. 5) were having a dinner right after the services. 6) we are gonna do the little jones boy tonight too but if not wednesday night, ok? 7) we don't do creeks any more, they are polluted and it's too cold.
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bluefrog
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EDEN...Your assumption was not according to my meaning. I don't know why you think I was talking about announcing your baptism to an unbeliever at all. First, why would you tell an unbeliever that you were baptised ? I don't know either. (You can make up a reason but why would you?) Secondly, why would an unbeliever concentrate on your telling what happened to you in so much detail ? I don't know either. Thirdly, why would an unbeliever point out a part of your becoming a believer in detail that you missed ? I don't either. So?
So, like I said, Isn't it just easier to tell someone you were "baptised"? The ones you tell should know of which you speak, huh?
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Michael Harrison
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Acts 8
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, I pray you, of whom speaks the prophet this? Of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip … began at the same scripture and preached Jesus to him.
36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water. And the eunuch said, See, here is water; what hinders me to be baptized?
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) Just a little observation: Philip did not 'suggest' that the eunuch 'be baptized'. The eunuch 'asked'.
So, in this verse I also find something curious:
quote:
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Acts 9
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared to you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose and was baptized.
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That is that is is an assumption that almost any reader makes, that when he "arose, and was baptized," that he was baptized in 'water'. For he may have been baptized in the Spirit upon rising. The conclusion is without exception drawn, that when it says, "he was baptised," that he was led somewhere and baptism was performed. It is easy to see why one would think that. However, it could be a passive statement indicating that he 'received' baptism, as the Holy Spirit fell upon him.
As a matter of other interests:
http://bibleprobe.com/jesuscode.htm
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article6.htm
a w
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Eden
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Bluefrog wrote quote:
IS WATER BAPTISM A TESTIMONY ? Is the Question.
I never thought it was anything else.
As for discussing the subject isn't it much more simple to tell someone "I was baptised" instead of "I went to Jesus, told Him that I repented of all my sins, asked Him to forgive me, asked Him to accept me into the Kingdom of God." Because if you don't cover all the issues you will surely be asked, if you don't get specific.
bluefrog, it seems to me that you are having this hypothetical discussion with an Unbeliever, to whom you say, “I am baptized”? And then this Unbeliever is supposed to know that by “I am baptized” you mean the long version which you gave in your post above?
But I think that it is unlikely that water baptism is for Unbelievers because people are baptized in the presence of believers, and not in the presence of unbelievers. Paul was baptized in Damascus among the believers, and the eunuch was baptized by the believer Philip.
Usually there are NO Unbelievers present at the water baptism. So how can water baptism be a testimony for Unbelievers to whom you “simply say”, “I am baptized” and then they are supposed to know that it means that long version?
Since usually only believers are present at water baptism, the water baptism is either for the believers, or for the person being baptized, or for God and the angels (both good and bad).
And it seems that the new believers were all IMMEDIATE WATER BAPTIZED RIGHT AFTER BELIEVING that Jesus is the Son of God.
Let’s take the eunuch and Philip for example. Here is the Bible text again:
Acts 8
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, I pray you, of whom speaks the prophet this? Of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip … began at the same scripture and preached Jesus to him.
36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water. And the eunuch said, See, here is water; what hinders me to be baptized?
37 Then Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he answered, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still, and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Now what was so urgent for this important and busy eunuch to say to the also busy evangelist Philip, See, here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?
Philip had of course preached Jesus to the eunuch as they rode along, but why would Philip have touched on the subject of “water baptism” with the eunuch, and iwhat would Philip have said to the eunuch about “water baptism” why he should do it as soon as he could, or something?
Indeed, what did the eunuch know about “water baptism” that he now so insistently asked for it from Philip?
What has happened? How come water baptism was a big thing in the early church while to most “modern” Christians the subject of “water baptism” is only a subject to “kick around every couple of weeks”, to use bluefrog’s phrase.
Here one last example. Peter is preaching at Cornelius's house, and while Peter is yet talking, the Holy Spirit fell on all who were there, and immediately Peter says, "Can anyone forbid water?"
Acts 10
44 And while Peter yet spoke these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them {the Gentiles} who heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
46 For they {Peter's group} heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they prayed him to tarry certain days.
Have we lost something? Why were these early believers so KEEN on having the believers water baptized right away?
I’m still very puzzled by this whole matter, considering that here in the USA, MANY people become Christians by BELIEVING THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, but then there is NO URGENCY of any kind here in the USA to GET THE BELIEVERS BAPTIZED RIGHT AWAY, as quickly as in, "See, here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?"
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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IS WATER BAPTISM A TESTIMONY ? Is the Question.
I never thought it was anything else.
Who would want to cast out the old Self and Move In to the NEW SELF and not have a Party ?
As for discussing the subject isn't it much more simple to tell someone "I was baptised" instead of "I went to Jesus, told Him that I repented of all my sins, asked Him to forgive me, asked Him to accept me into the Kingdom of God." Because if you don't cover all the issues you will surely be asked, if you don't get specific.
Response: Oh, you went to Jesus, told Him that you repented of all your sins, asked Him to forgive you, asked Him to accept you into the Kingdom of God ? Response: Yes.
I don't think you would get baptised first and then ask the Lord to save you, would you?
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Acts 9
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared to you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose and was baptized.
These passages say that Ananias, and putting his hands on him said 'be filled with the Holy Spirit'. That is a condensation.
As a matter of other interests:
http://bibleprobe.com/jesuscode.htm
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article6.htm
a w
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Eden
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I was just reading in Acts and when Philip preached to the Samaritans, they were all baptized, and when Saul/Paul was converted in Damascus, he was immediately baptized, so that must be something to it, unless it was a custom to do that in those days, and, as a custom, that is not done in the West anymore.
Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 9
17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, who appeared to you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose and was baptized.
So clearly in the Samaritans case, nor even in Saul's case, could they have understood, "Oh, it is to signify your death and burial when God crucified you on the cross with Jesus" or "whatever else", those people, believed, received the Holy Spirit, and were baptized in da wa-wa immediately, like a lobster in boiling water.
love, Eden
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becauseHElives
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WildB, why do you who put the Apostle Paul as the ultimate authority for the believer today oppose what the Apostle Paul taught himself...Paul and Silas were shut up in prison for the sake of the Gospel. Their feet were bound in stocks, and their backs were bleeding from the stripes they had received. In spite of all they were suffering, we find them rejoicing and praising God. And God sent an earthquake that shook the prison, and opened all the doors!
Acts 16:27-31
And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
The Word tells us here what we must to be saved: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The jailer and his household did this, and were baptized.
Acts 16:33
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
I want you to examine this example, and realize that it isn’t what I say that it is important - it is what God has to say in His Word that’s important. Obey the Word of God from your heart - including this issue of water baptism.
Now, Paul took these new believers that same night and baptized them. This would show us how important the issue of water baptism really is. It wasn’t enough for this jailer to believe with all of his heart. His believing opened the door that brought the grace of God into his life. He turned to believe in Christ with all of his heart, just as the Ethiopian had done. And just like the Ethiopian, he was baptized right away.
Why would anyone that claims to believe Yahshua is their savior oppose following His example in anything?
He submitted Himself to be baptized by John ....
Matthew 21:23-27
And when He was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto Him as He was teaching, and said, By what authority doest Thou these things? and who gave Thee this authority?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell Me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?
And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; He will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell.
And He said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
You are here: God >> Water Baptism
Water Baptism - Many People Ask If It's Required for Salvation
Baptism isn't an act that gets us into heaven - it is faith in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord that offers that assurance. Baptism (by full immersion as taught in the Bible) is an act of obedience that should be an immediate part of our acceptance of the gift of grace offered by Jesus Christ. But it does not mean that one who truly gives their heart to Jesus on a death bed, in the heat of warfare, or in a crashing airplane, will be kept out of heaven because they failed to be baptized. The thief on the cross next to Jesus didn't have time to be baptized before he died, but he had an opportunity to believe in Jesus and put his trust in Him, and Jesus responded by saying, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43).
True faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross for our sins is sufficient for salvation. Christ has already done everything. By definition, His grace doesn't require any additional "works" by us. That being said, Jesus Christ commands us to be baptized (Matthew 28:18-20), and therefore, all believers should be baptized. Immediately following Christ's command, the Book of Acts describes the practice of administering baptism to almost every group or individual who believed in the preaching of the Gospel by the apostles (Acts 2:37-41; 8:5-13; 8:35-39; 9:10-18; 10:34-48; 16:13-15; 16:30-33; 18:8; and 19:1-6).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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To sprinkle or to dunk, some have thunk, it saves their mortal soul. I do not agree, for it must simply be, to be 'baptized' into His name, supernatural-ly!
Neither do, the Lord's Supper I say, be anything but ceremony, respectin the day...
And you do shew forth, His coming!
And Sunday too, tis ceremony true, but you can park a bike in the garage, yet a Mercedes it twill not become! So you can 'do' all three, and let it be, but heaven will not greet you.
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
However, realizing you are dead and buried with Christ is the fruit of knowing that you have 'really' discovered what HE means when He says by Paul, that you are dead, and yours is a life hid with Christ in God. People all the time say they are 'dead' when they are still quit alive - to self!
Absolutely. Although I do remember the day quite well, perhaps I was propelled by ceremony only, but I don't know, there was a day when I had read enough of the Bible New Testament that I GOT IN A HURRY TO BE BAPTIZED IN WATER.
Acts 8
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, I pray you, of whom does the prophet speak this? Of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached Jesus to him.
36 And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said {to Philip}, See, here is water; what hinders me to be baptized?
37 Then Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, you may. And he {the eunuch} answered, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Note especially Philip's answer, "You may ... if you believe with all your hear that Jesus is the Son of God", and the eunuch said, "yes". If it was just "ceremony", would Philip, who was full of the Holy Spirit, waste both his time and the important eunuch's time by "some water baptism" as if it was "so hot in the desert"?
Michael Harrison, I don't think we should relegate such an important account as this by the Holy Spirit so quickly to "only ceremony", and "better the realization of our death and burial", as you proposed.
love, Eden
"wake me up, Lord, give me a passion"
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
WILD B...You said: Your opinion
Not Biblical
Not who's opinion and what is not biblical?
Bf it aint you.
Maintain coarse 210 nothing to the right.
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That is all.....
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bluefrog
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MICHAEL...Wellllll, I can't tell if you are a dunker or a sprinkler and don't guess it matters.
I do however believe that if you are to be baptised in your church you had better stick to their practice. If you ask a Methodist pastor to dunk you he may just do a big horse laugh in yo face. If you ask a baptist to sprinkle you be prepared to be told No ! hehehe It doesn't really matter what method you personally want. Do what your church practices and learn to live with it. ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif)
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bluefrog
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WILD B...You said: Your opinion
Not Biblical
Not who's opinion and what is not biblical?
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Michael Harrison
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On baptism, if you wanna get wet, go right ahead. I will not stand in the way of a blessing. But getting wet is symbolism. It is ceremony. It is something done in name only. However, realizing you are dead and buried with Christ is the fruit of knowing that you have 'really' discovered what HE means when He says by Paul, that you are dead, and yours is a life hid with Christ in God. People all the time say they are 'dead' when they are still quit alive - to self!
Paul aims at this in his epistles, trying to cast down these 'imaginations', held by well intending people, of course.
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WildB
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Your opinion.
Not Biblical.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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You know, Cornwall Stam wrote somthing on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which I lost down in the stack somewhere. But it was called a 'lost' sermon. And in reality, sometimes preachers 'mature'. Sometimes they grow, therefore some of what they once believed, or did not believe, changes. So just because he wrote it doesn't mean (to me) that he stubbornly persisted in that position all of his lifetime. (He has passed, I for some reason think.) There is however something that he understood about relationship. I see it in his writings.
But becausehelives sed, Quote:There is no new dispensation except the dispensation of Grace that was issued in on the Day of Pentecost!Unquote. Yep! I'll agree. Jesus brought in the New Dispensation - by His death, as HE did as HE promised, and 'sent' the Holy Spirit as a comforter. This could not happen in the old dispensation. It required the sacrifice of a Lamb, without blemish before it could happen.
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bluefrog
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BELIEVERS...From what I have been able to find out, the subject of Baptism is rather confusing.
First, it doesn't make much difference what a non believer thinks baptism is.
As for what a believer thinks baptism is depends on where they are a church member. I know that is not a good answer but it is the truth. I could tell you that I believe that after a person has turned their life over to Jesus there is a ceremony to witness before the other believers. It just happens that our church submerges the individual. It is a symbol of washing the sin away and coming up like new.
Baptism beliefs are: John's baptism, water baptism, spiritual baptism. Skipping some and going to practices used today are: Three views of water baptism are, 1)Sacramental view as a means of grace for remission of sin (Cath), 2)Implanting of faith that will be energized by the priest by preaching (Luth). Conventional view by Protestants as a sign of covenant relationship with God as circumcision was in the OT. 3)Symbolic view is a public confession of Christ as Savior. A symbol of the work God has already done in uniting the believer to Jesus.
The first two recognize infant baptism. The symbolic view believers argue that only those old enough to make a commitment can be saved.
So, for what it is worth to YOU is your purpose for baptism. Don't be arguing with me.
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