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Author Topic: Getting the Gospel Right
Eden
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Michael Harrison said to Eden
quote:
He uses us, as you have said (while we are in the wilderness, which you have described above in 1,2,3,4,and 5), to lead us on, to encourage us, and to reveal Himself to us.

But He is calling us to a place which can be read about in almost any epistle one chooses. Yet the believer refuses to face this head on, choosing instead a halfway commitment, if one will, by not coming to the light.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Joh 3:21 But he who does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Hi, Michael Harrison, the above verses from John 3 do NOT refer to BELIEVERS but to UNbelievers. That's why "the world" is mentioned:

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

These "men" in John 3:19 referred to UNbelievers, NOT to believers, nor does it refer to "children of God" as you proposed in this aragraph:
quote:
This theme of 'hiding' more or less, continues in the epistles where it is indicated that they the CHILDREN OF GOD 'struggle' against grace, preferring to 'do' for themselves.
John 3:19-21 refers to UNbelievers of the world who PREFER DARKNESS over coming to the Light of Jesus. John 3:19-21 does NOT refer to BELIEVERS or "CHILDREN OF GOD" who PREFERRED DARKNESS.

I agree that many Christians STAY that the "I'm saved!!!" level, probably because they do not bother to read the Word of God enough to find out what their instructions are and to find out what God has provided for them in Christ Jesus".

Many of these Christians STOP at "having faith for salvation", but they do not have faith that this new life really will operate their spirit-soul-body for them, so these Christians continue to rule/operate their own body from the soul level as they were have "done forever".

These "I'm saved!!!" Christians have not bothered to read far enough and deep enough into the Word of God so that they now have ENOUGH FAITH that God is REALLY going to flow this "new fly" in me SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO DO IT MYSELF ANYMORE.

Many Christians never bother to read past "I'm saved!!!", and while that is very sad for them and for the world, I think you, Michael Harrison, "should not make it your business what other Christians SHOULD be doing in THEIR relatinship with the Lord.

You said:
quote:
But He is calling us to a place which can be read about in almost any epistle one chooses. Yet the believer refuses to face this head on, choosing instead a halfway commitment, if one will, by not coming to the light.
Yes, but ALL believers still have a tendency to pick up soul rule again of the body and to ignore the instructions from his spirit by not even listening to those instructions for a while, or perhaps for their whole life, even though they WERE saved because they HAD had faith for salvation. But they never bothered to get faith for the others things God is providing for His Children.

Michael Harrison, lastly you said
quote:
But that does not mean that they are not called by His name, or used by Him even in that state of being.

It means that they are still in the wilderness. Alas! God offers us the "Promised Land."

Luke 6:39
And He spoke a parable to them, "Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into the ditch?

But generally, Michael Harrison, I think you worry too much, and "complain" too much about "people just not getting it" and "people only being half-hearted" and all that, while the Bible says that we must "work out our OWN salvation", NOT work out the salvation of other Christians:

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your OWN salvation with fear and trembling.

We've been over this ground before in that "me thinks that you stick your nose in other Christians' business too much":

Romans 14:4
Who are you who judges another man's servant? ...

In those days of indentured servanthood and of slaves, ONLY the OWNER of the indentured servant and of the slave had ANY AND ALL RIGHTS to that intendured servant or to that slave, to KILL or to LET LIVE. ONLY the owner of that slave would decide whether th indentured servant or slave LIVED OR DIED.

In those days of indentured servanthood and slavery, no OTHER man would even DREAM of ever saying ANYTHING about another man's servant or slave.

Christians are redeemed and owned by the God of Israel and by the Lord Jesus of Bethlehem/Nazareth. One Christian can therefore NOT berate another Christian because that servant ISN'T LIVING UP TO HIS POTENTIAL, as if the OWNER of that servant DID NOT KNOW THAT...only God and Jesus are responsible for his life or death.

Yet you wrote all this about God's servant or slave:
quote:
But He is calling us to a place which can be read about in almost any epistle one chooses. Yet the believer refuses to face this head on, choosing instead a halfway commitment, if one will, by not coming to the light.
And you wrote this about God's servant:
quote:
This theme of 'hiding' more or less, continues in the epistles where it is indicated that they the CHILDREN OF GOD 'struggle' against grace, preferring to 'do' for themselves.
As long as YOUR relationship with your owner is INCREASINGLY GOOD, growing in stature and favor with men and God, that's your part to work out, but it is NOT your business how God's other servants and slaves are doing. That is HIS business, not yours.

And this applies to ALL servants:

Genesis 4:7
If you do well, shall you not be accepted? But if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. For to you shall be his desire, but you shall rule over him.

love, Eden

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
I don't think it is so "either-or". God uses people who are not even saved, so why wouldn't God use people who are saved fairly recently but who haven't surrendered ALL yet and who have NOT YET presented ALL their members to God?

Oh, HE surely does! Thank you for asking. And that goes well with this verse:

  • Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

He uses us, as you have said (while we are in the wilderness, which you have described above in 1,2,3,4,and 5), to lead us on, to encourage us, and to reveal Himself to us. But He is calling us to a place which can be read about in almost any epistle one chooses. Yet the believer refuses to face this head on, choosing instead a halfway commitment, if one will, by not coming to the light:

  • Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

This theme of 'hiding' more or less, continues in the epistles where it is indicated that they the children of God 'struggle' against grace, preferring to 'do' for themselves. But that does not mean that they are not called by His name, or used by Him even in that state of being. It means that they are still in the wilderness. Alas! God offers us the "Promised Land."

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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote
quote:
For certain, Jesus has no use for anyone who is not willing to 'surrender all', to follow.
I don't think it is so "either-or". God uses people who are not even saved, so why wouldn't God use people who are saved fairly recently but who haven't surrendered ALL yet and who have NOT YET presented ALL their members to God?

In the book of Romans, "presenting our members as instruments of righteousness to God" occurs ONLY after several other important steps have first been taken:

1. they were saved
2. they were crucified with Christ on the cross
3. they reckon themselves dead with Christ
4. they reckon themselves alive unto God
5. then they present their members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

But all during this "deepening of their Christian life", God is USING THEM even though they have not...uh, how did you put it, Michael Harrison?
quote:
For certain, Jesus has no use for anyone who is not willing to 'surrender all', to follow.
God even uses people who are not even Christians; and HOW MUCH MORE will God use Christians who have been RECONCILED unto God?

Romans 6:13
Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those who are alive from the dead, and yield your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Saved, crucified with Christ, reckoning myself dead, but reckoning myself alive unto God, and only then do I "present my members" to God, as in, "consecration".

There are gradual steps in the Christian life and walk which must ALL be seen and accepted by faith. No step can be skipped, until the Christian finally "presents all his members" to God for God's use.

It is all a gradual process, in which all steps must be accurately followed, in the order set forth by the Holy Spirit in Romans. So that in the meantime, some parts of a Christian may be surrendered, while other parts of a person are still not surrendered to God. But God will use the parts that ARE offered to Him. God even uses unsaved people.

love, Eden

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Michael Harrison
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Great way to follow up a very good post everyone! For certain, Jesus has no use for anyone who is not willing to 'surrender all', to follow. There is no watering down the gospel for the sake of gaining sinners. It would be wrong to let anyone think that they can be saved without a u-turn. They might as well not even be preached to if the ultimatum is not expressed.

And since it came up, grace, to some, is simply sinning that they may see it abound! This they do without regard to the way that they affect God. For it wounds Him to take it lightly.

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becauseHElives
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The Gospel that Yahshua preached is the same Gospel that Paul preached, is the same Gospel Peter preached and anyone that preaches any other Gospel is from Satan.....

Paul did not author Salvation, neither did he finish Salvation....

Most of the so called Christians today believe Paul preached something different than Yahshua preach and this is the reason we see a perverted Church all around us....

quote:
KnowHim / MacArthur

That sentiment reflects a viewpoint that is
rapidly gaining momentum within evangelicalism. A handful of outspoken and
increasingly vocal teachers are popularizing it. To their credit, most of those
men are motivated by a passion to keep the gospel of God's grace free from the
influence of human works. Their desire, I'm sure, is to make clear the biblical
truth that salvation may in no way be earned or obtained by man's effort. Their
approach, however, has been to eliminate from the gospel message anything that
sounds like a work of righteousness, and to speak only of believing the
objective data. They have erased the biblical words repentance,
obedience, and submission from the vocabulary of evangelicalism.

Such teaching has taken a heavy toll. Faith has
become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to
surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts
about Him. A person can believe without obeying. Thus faith is robbed of any
moral significance, and righteousness becomes optional.

Even the way we invite people to Christ reveals
this shift. "Make a decision for Christ," we say. When was the last time you
heard an evangelistic message that challenged sinners to repent and follow
Christ? Yet isn't that the language Jesus Himself used

the message of the Old Testament and the message of the New Testament is the same message,

the message of the Old Testament looked forward to the message the Lamb of Yahweh and the message of the New Testament looks back at the the finished work of the Lamb of Yahweh....

even Gentiles were included in the faith of the Old Testament looking to the Lamb....

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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KnowHim
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I am reading the book (The Gospel According to Jesus)right now and it is very very good.

Plow on, plow on...
David

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
I havent read that book(The Gospel According to Jesus) yet by Mcarthur, but I do have a friend at work who picked up a hard-cover copy and he said he will lend it to me after he finishes it.

With love in Christ, Daniel



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oneinchrist
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Good advice Wild B! yes....always follow Christ

That is the reason that I spend more time reading the gospels than all the other books of the bible. The Word of Jesus is spirit. Though I cannot deny that the entire bible is divinely inspired.........there is not one man who can make the claim that his word is spirit, except the man Jesus. If I was questioned at the entrance of Heaven about one of my beliefs I had rather say "but Jesus, I thought you were saying", than to say........"but Jesus, I thought that Paul was saying" or "but Jesus, I thought that Peter was saying"..........

The testing of our faith determines who really is our God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Wild B,
Why dont you stop beating around the bush and explain to me why you believe that Peter and Paul preach a different gospel?

I am assuming that you would not post things that you do not agree with.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Learn to look into these books that one does post.

But always,

Follow Christ.

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Wild B,
Why dont you stop beating around the bush and explain to me why you believe that Peter and Paul preach a different gospel?

I am assuming that you would not post things that you do not agree with.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Wild B,
I am already skeptical of your teachings....now you expect me to follow a link of yours onto a different site. Could you please just copy and paste the answer?

No I can't. It was a link to a book where you could read for yourself what you say "I teach".

Sorry my friend, I am not a teacher, learn for yourself.

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Wild B,
I am already skeptical of your teachings....now you expect me to follow a link of yours onto a different site. Could you please just copy and paste the answer?

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Ok, let me ask it this way then......

How is the gospel of the kingdom different than the gospel of grace?

Id like to know because my bible does not make distinctions like that.

http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Ok, let me ask it this way then......

How is the gospel of the kingdom different than the gospel of grace?

Id like to know because my bible does not make distinctions like that.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
and what may I ask does Peter preach? in your OPINION?

Can't you answer your own questions before posting?

READ YOUR BIBLE PRAYERFULLY !

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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and what may I ask does Peter preach? in your OPINION?
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Wild B,
In my bible there is a footnote to Galatians 2 vs. 7-10. It states............

"God has only one gospel,

For today , for salvation ~ Yes

THE GOOD NEWS OF GRACE.

as delivered by the chief of sinners Paul.

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Hi Wild B,
In my bible there is a footnote to Galatians 2 vs. 7-10. It states............

"God has only one gospel, but He allocates different spheres and cultures in which to preach it". END

In my bible dictionary for the word GOSPEL it states.... The "good news" that God has provided salvation for all people through the atoning death of His Son (Mark 1:1-15). The word is also used of the teachings of Jesus and the apostles (Col. 1:5,Rom. 10:16,1Peter 4:17).END

To make the assertion that somehow there is more than one gospel would be implying that there is more than one "good news" and that there is more than one "teaching of Jesus and the apostles". If there is another "good news", what is it? If there is another teaching of Jesus and the apostles, where is it?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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WildB
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Great Post!

Here's another book to consider.


Why So Many Churches?

 -

Author: Rev. Noah Hutchings

After serving in churches for many years, Noah Hutchings became interested in why those who profess the name of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord believe differently on hundreds of doctrinal issues, when it is so obvious that all cannot be right.

After an appraisal of the entire spectrum of denominational differences, the author reduces the many ecclesiastical variances to one common denominator: the Gospel of the Kingdom committed to Peter to preach to the Circumcision (Israel) and the Gospel of sovereign Grace committed to the Uncircumcision (Gentiles).

If you have ever wondered why there are so many denominations, sects, and cults, and why church memberships cannot agree on even simple doctrines like baptism, then you will want to read and study this book. This book is also used in seminaries, and thousands have been published.

http://www.swrc.com/bookstore/books/alpha/w_list/churches.html

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Good morning Know Him,
I have a step-son who is 14 years old. My wife and I have discussed together what we both believe is a biblical presentation of the gospel.
Our plan is to first see that he agrees with the essential facts of scripture that relate to the plan of salvation for man......that he is a sinner in need of salvation, that Jesus is the Son of God, that Jesus is Gods sacrifice for our sin, and that Jesus died and rose again and sits on the right hand of God from where He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

Then we will talk to him about Gods call to repentance and what repentance means.......turning away from sin and a position of rebellion towards God and to turn to Him and His will with all your heart......emphasizing the need to respond with sincerity because God knows the heart and because God is the only One Who can forgive our sin.
Then we will talk to him about faith in Jesus and that the devil will attempt to steer him another direction if he does not stay alert and committed to Gods will. We will emphasize that faith in Jesus also means loyalty towards Jesus and trust in the words of Jesus. We will tell him that the test of our faith determines who really is our god......the god of this world or the God of the heavens and the earth.

Then we will ask him if he is ready to be a disciple of Jesus. If he asks us what it means we are prepared to tell him that it means to put himself in subjection to or under the authority of Jesus and His teachings. If he says yes we will encourage him to be baptized. If not, we will have to ask him why and go from there.

I havent read that book(The Gospel According to Jesus) yet by Mcarthur, but I do have a friend at work who picked up a hard-cover copy and he said he will lend it to me after he finishes it.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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KnowHim
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Getting the Gospel Right



John MacArthur


I am amazed at some of the things that have been
said and written in recent years about the gospel. I fear that in many circles
a different message is replacing the good news of salvation. I'm not talking
about the attacks on the gospel from liberal religion or the theology of the
cults, but a skewed message that has sprouted from right within conservative
evangelicalism.


I have a copy of a training film now being used
internationally to teach Christians what they should and should not say when
leading someone to Christ. A respected, conservative organization produced the
film, but frankly, the warped view of the gospel it presents is appalling.


In the entire half-hour film, there is not one
mention of the resurrection. It speaks of forgiveness without defining sin, and
it talks of trusting Christ without describing faith. Incredibly, the film
counsels believers never to speak to a non-Christian about the lordship
of Christ, submission to Him, surrender of the will, forsaking one's sin, or
obeying God. Those truths, according to the film, have no place in the gospel
message but should be saved for later, after someone becomes a Christian.


That sentiment reflects a viewpoint that is
rapidly gaining momentum within evangelicalism. A handful of outspoken and
increasingly vocal teachers are popularizing it. To their credit, most of those
men are motivated by a passion to keep the gospel of God's grace free from the
influence of human works. Their desire, I'm sure, is to make clear the biblical
truth that salvation may in no way be earned or obtained by man's effort. Their
approach, however, has been to eliminate from the gospel message anything that
sounds like a work of righteousness, and to speak only of believing the
objective data. They have erased the biblical words repentance,
obedience
, and submission from the vocabulary of evangelicalism.


Such teaching has taken a heavy toll. Faith has
become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to
surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts
about Him. A person can believe without obeying. Thus faith is robbed of any
moral significance, and righteousness becomes optional.


Even the way we invite people to Christ reveals
this shift. "Make a decision for Christ," we say. When was the last time you
heard an evangelistic message that challenged sinners to repent and follow
Christ? Yet isn't that the language Jesus Himself used (Matthew
4:17
;

Mark 8:34
)?


Those were the questions that prompted me to
write


The Gospel According to Jesus

--I wanted to study the message Jesus
preached to unbelievers. How could any issue be more important? The gospel we
present has eternal consequences. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men
and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can
give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This
is not a trivial matter for theologians to speculate on. It is an issue every
lay person must understand and get right.




Here are some questions that need to be answered biblically:


Do we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, or as
Savior only?
Some say a person who refuses to obey Christ can still receive
Him as Savior. They teach that the gift of eternal life is available by faith
even to one who rejects the moral and spiritual demands of Christ. They accuse
others of teaching "lordship salvation," implying that it is novel to suggest
that submission is a characteristic of saving faith.



Until relatively recently, however, no one would have dared suggest a person can
be saved while stubbornly refusing to bow to Christ's authority. Nearly all the
major biblical passages calling for saving faith refer to Jesus as lord (cf.

Acts 2:21
,

36
;

Romans 10:9-10
).



Is repentance from sin essential to salvation? Some say that turning
from sin is a human work and therefore cannot be part of salvation. To
accommodate the biblical call to repentance, they redefine repentance as nothing
more than a change of mind about who Jesus is.



Biblically, however, repentance is a total about face--turning away from sin and
self and unto God (cf.

1 Thessalonians 1:9
). That is no more a result of human effort than faith
itself. Nor is it in any sense a pre-salvation work required to prepare a
sinner for salvation. Real repentance is inseparable from faith and, like
faith, is the work of God in a human heart. It is the response God inevitably
generates in the heart of one He is redeeming.



What is faith? Some say faith is merely believing certain facts. One
popular Bible teacher says saving faith is nothing more than confidence in the
divine offer of eternal life.



Biblically, however, the object of faith is not the divine offer; it is the
Person of Jesus Christ. Faith in Him is what saves, not just be­lieving His
promises or accepting facts about Him. Saving faith has to be more than
accepting facts. Even demons have that kind of faith (James
2:19
).



Believing in Jesus means re­ceiving Him for all that He is (John
1:12
). It means both confessing Him as Savior and yielding to Him as Lord.
In fact, Scripture often uses the word obedience as a synonym for faith (cf.

John 3:36
;

Acts 6:7
;

Hebrews 5:9
).



What is a disciple? In the past hundred years or so, it has become
popular to speak of discipleship as a higher level of Christian experience. In
the new terminology, a person becomes a believer at salvation; he becomes a
disciple later, when he moves past faith to obedience.



Such a view conveniently relegates the difficult demands of Jesus to a
post-salvation experience. It maintains that when He challenged the multitudes
to deny self, to take up a cross and follow Him (Mark
8:34
); to forsake all (Luke
14:33
); and to leave father and mother (Matthew
19:29
), He was simply asking believers to step up to the second level and
become disciples.



But how does that square with Jesus' own words, "I did not come to call the
righteous, but sinners" (Matt
9:13
)? The heart of His ministry was evangelism, and those difficult
demands are evangelistic appeals.



Every believer is a disciple and vice versa. A careful reading of Acts shows
that the word disciple has been a synonym for Christian from the earliest days
of the church (cf. 6:1-2, 7; 11:26; 14:20, 22; 15:10).



What is the evidence of salvation? In
their zeal to eliminate good works as a requirement for salvation, some have
gone to the extreme of arguing that good works are not even a valid evidence of
salvation. They teach that a person may be genuinely saved yet never manifest
the fruit of salvation--a changed life.



A few have even taken the absurd position that a born-again person may
ultimately turn away from Christ into unbelief, deny God, and become an
atheist--yet still possess eternal life. One writer invented a term for such
people: "unbelieving believers"!


Scripture is clear that a saved person can never
be lost. It is equally clear that a genuine Christian will never fall back into
total unbelief. That kind of apostasy proves an individual was never really
born again (1
John 2:19
).



Furthermore, if a person is genuinely saved, his life will change for the better
(2
Corinthians 5:17
). He is saved "for good works" (Ephesians
2:10
), and there is no way he can fail to bring forth at least some of the
fruit that characterizes the redeemed (cf.

Matthew 7:17
). His desires are transformed; he begins to hate sin and love
righteousness. He will not be sinless, but the pattern of his life will be
decreasing sin and increasing righteousness.



You need to settle these critical questions in your own heart. Study the gospel
Scripture presents. Listen with discernment to every speaker you hear. Measure
everything by the Word of God. Above all, make sure that the message you share
with unbelievers is truly the gospel of Christ.


Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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