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Topic: Metaphorical understanding!
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Michael Harrison
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Still, a metaphor is a descriptive diagram. It is a parallel. It is symbolism. It is adequate to help us to 'picture' what something means to us. But it is not one-for-one in replacement. Yet, the eye is a door. The ear is a door. These are access to the soul. These are access to the heart wherein we, upon hearing, believe, or not believe, which manifests, or not, who He is to us, which is not metaphor, but literal reality.
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Carol Swenson
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No I'm not. You're dead in your English.
met·a·phor
–noun a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.”
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Your eye is a door. Your ear is a door. Your heart is a door.
These are metaphors.
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Michael Harrison
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NO door? Your eye is a door. Your ear is a door. Your heart is a door. But a dork has no door. For the deaf, dumb, and blind has a hard time receiving, since there is no door.
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Eden
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chicken or fish, that's it. But I have no literal door in my body, and therefore it's a metaphor.
love according to, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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Chicken or fish? Chicken or fish? METAPHOR? Does no one want to know the Lord? He said HE would 'sup' with you. You are looking for "Communion," here. Please don't skim over these verses.
- Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it; and he gave to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took a cup, and gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is shed for many unto remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
- Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
- Joh 6:32 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven.
- Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Sup!
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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote quote:
Revelation 3:20 (NLT)
20“ Look! I stand at the door and knock . If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.
Would you say that this is a metaphor?
And Michael Harrison answered quote:
Literal!
Literal? If it was literal, then Jesus came inside of me after I opened a literal door in my body and Jesus and I had a meal of fish or chicken together inside of me. It is a metaphor.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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It's true, I am speaking as though everyone is looking at relationship as similie. However, even metaphor is not 'literal'. It is removed one step by comparison to something else, albeit, supposedly 'equivalent'. But literal would be:
"The word of God is quick and powerful, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit."
If that does not happen 'literally', and those with whom I am discussing this, do not see it that way, then it becomes something besides 'literal'. That removes it from 'actual', and makes it to 'parallel' the actual. Therefore it can not be literal.
Similie is something that parallels something else in appearance, or functionality, which two cannot be reconciled literally. Metaphor is a parallel which is an equivalent, but which is nevertheless - a parallel. Therefore it is not literal.
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Carol Swenson
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You don't know what a metaphor is.
But you know Who Jesus Christ is, and that's what really matters.
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Michael Harrison
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1Th 3:13 to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
Jesus establishes our hearts unblameable in holiness, by 'being there' in a way that we 'sup' with Him. He is not 'dethroned' by an unbelieving heart. This way He is not dethroned by something taking HIS place in our heart, which would be idolatry, or covetousness, or anything that displaces Him. Jesus is our heart as we believe that HE is, but not without the surrender of belief.
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Michael Harrison
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See here:
- 1Th 1:9 For they themselves report concerning us what manner of entering in we had unto you; and how ye turned unto God from idols, to serve a living and true God,
Idols are idols because they take the seat on the throne of our heart. They are therefore placed before God. But the idol must be removed that Jesus may take the seat on the throne of our heart. Then we serve the true, and living God, not the idol, or the metaphor, which itself would be an idol.
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Michael Harrison
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If HE is in you, and HE is in me, and we get together,
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
then: He is in you, and He is in me, but by virtue of our 'gathering', he is there in the midst of us. That is like he is there as a third or fourth person, as it were, externally, though invisible.
And here:
- Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
The door HE stands at is the heart. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The 'heart' must see and hear. To let Him in means to 'believe'. For if HE were only invited into your house, He would only be a house guest. And we know that will not happen because HE has gone to the Father. (And Revelation says that when they say 'lo, here, and 'lo there, go not after them.)
We must let HIM into the heart if we would 'sup' with each other.
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Michael Harrison
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Even though it is awkward, a bit, this is why I stick with the KJV. Because the translation that says, "to have dinner with you," misses it. It makes it to seem 'external' as though one meets Him like they would a friend, or a boss, or mom, or dad. But this is why I put in that verse above, "Know ye not how that Jesus is in you except ye be reprobate. That is where we are to look for Him. Then we will be 'digging' for the Pearl of Great Price, to discover Him, and the relationship HE gives.
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Michael Harrison
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Think of the word 'commune'. When we are in relationship with Him, HE can commune with us, and us with Him, because HE is in us by FAITH. This is the effect of the expression 'to sup' with us, not as stated above, 'to have dinner' with us. But the mind which would 'rationalize' scripture, has not the faith to 'hear' this in this way, and relates it instead to a metaphorical 'dinning' which is the only way the carnal mind can 'rationalize' it. For it can not conceive of a spiritual relationship. But we have a spiritual relationship, if we will acknowledge it.
- Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
What is the Spirit of Christ? Better yet, who? It is Christ!
- 2Co 13:5 Try your own selves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate.
Literal!
Remember that we are to 'sell all' and invest in the Pearl of Great Price. That applies of course to the sinner. However, it applies all over again to the believer. For perhaps he has forgotten already.
- Php 3:8 Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may gain Christ,
Here is an example. Count all of whatever, lost, to gain Christ. But this means relationship now, not at the end of the journey when you 'die' and so called 'go to HEaven'. For in the mean time, you may only be the member of a club; a denominational club. Jesus is after relatioinship. He is after "becoming real to you." And HE did not give you His Spirit just to be a metaphor.
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Carol Swenson
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Revelation 3:20 (NLT)
20“ Look! I stand at the door and knock . If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.
Would you say that this is a metaphor?
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
What does "metaphorically stymied" mean?
It means one who is limited by a metaphorical concept of relationship, rather than a real one.
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
If you have a metaphorical rationality concerning the understanding of the word, then you have a metaphorical spirituality.
And in your Topic TITLE you called it "metaphorical understanding".
Okay then...if I may ask, Michael Harrison, what is the adjective that best describes your rationality or understanding, and what is the adjective in front of your spirituality?
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
So it is better to have the 'anointing', and to do that one must ask, or seek. Of course the metaphorically stymied Christian will not be able to 'receive' the anointing; or if it is possible that there is a metaphorical equivalent to 'anointing' it would have to be most interesting, but certainly impotent, even if held in the highest regard by the hopeful believer.
What does "metaphorically stymied" mean?
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Carol Swenson
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Annointing
Persons were anointed for health (Mk 6:13), because of the widespread belief in the healing power of oil. It was often employed as a mark of hospitality (Lk 7:46); as a mark of special honor (Jn 11:2); in preparation for social occasions (Ruth 3:3; 2 Sam 14:2; Isa 61:3).
The figurative use of this word has reference strictly to the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the individual (Lk 4:18; Acts 4:27; 10:38). In this sense it is God who anoints (Heb 19; 2 Cor 1:21). The thought is to appoint, or qualify for a special dignity, function or privilege. It is in this sense that the word is applied to Christ (Jn 1:41 m; Acts 4:27; 10:38; Heb 1:9; compare Ps 2:2; Dan 9:25).
(1 John 2:20, 27; KJV, “unction”). Kings, prophets, and priests were anointed, in token of receiving divine grace. All believers are, in a secondary sense, what Christ was in a primary sense, “the Lord’s anointed.”
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
In Jn 19:30 we read: “Jesus gave up his pneuma”(spirit) to the Father, and, in the same Gospel (Jn 10:15), Jesus gave up His “psuchē (soul) for the sheep,” and in Mt 20:28 He gave His psuchē (not His pneuma) as a ransom—a difference which is characteristic. For the pneuma stands in quite a different relation to God from the psuchē. The “spirit” (pneuma) is the outbreathing of God into the creature, the life-principle derived from God. The “soul” (psuchē) is man’s individual possession (the "I"), that which distinguishes one man from another and from inanimate nature. The pneuma of Christ was surrendered to the Father in death; His psuchē was surrendered, His individual life was given, “a ransom for many.” His life “was given for the sheep”.
Jesus gave up His “psuchē (soul) for the sheep, and in Mt 20:28 He gave His psuchē (not His pneuma) as a ransom: And HE gave up HIS Spirit to the Father. But by HIS Spirit (psuchē) HE is 'life' to our (pneuma). I think that this is a very incomplete study on the meaning of life however!
Here is why I did not study the Greek (though I started Beginning Greek, by Payne once upon a time). First of all, to really understand and use it well for the purpose of 'dividing' the word, just to go to the Greek dictionary is not as respectable, although it has some practical application, albeit limited, or better yet, challengable (by those in the know). Tew: It isn't necessary in order to understand what the Spirit says. For someone without the knowledge of Greek can still understand scripture better than someone who does understand Greek, but who does not allow the Spirit to illuminate the truth. In such a case, one would be leaning to his own mental understanding at the expense of the Holy Spirit's teaching. And to that end:
- 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
So it is better to have the 'anointing', and to do that one must ask, or seek. Of course the metaphorically stymied Christian will not be able to 'receive' the anointing; or if it is possible that there is a metaphorical equivalent to 'anointing' it would have to be most interesting, but certainly impotent, even if held in the highest regard by the hopeful believer.
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Carol Swenson
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It is true that the Word "cuts" the heart of sinners with conviction (Acts 5:33; 7:54), and that the Word defeats Satan (Eph. 6:17). The Greek word translated “sword” means “a short sword or dagger.” The emphasis is on the power of the Word to penetrate and expose the inner heart of man. The Word is a “discerner” or “critic.”
Of course, God sees our hearts (Heb. 4:13); but we do not always know what is there (Jer. 17:9). God uses the Word to enable us to see the sin and unbelief in our own hearts. The Word exposes our hearts; and then, if we trust God, the Word enables our hearts to obey God and claim His promises. This is why each believer should be diligent to apply himself to hear and heed God’s Word. In the Word we see God, and we also see how God sees us. We see ourselves as we really are. This experience enables us to be honest with God, to trust His will, and to obey Him.
All of this is possible because of the finished work of Jesus Christ. God rested when He finished the work of Creation. God’s Son rested when He completed the work of the new creation. We may enter into His rest by trusting His Word and obeying His will.
(Wiersbe)
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
The reason this is true is because (using 'your' definition), is that a person 'lacking' morals, is so because they are 'out of relationship' or flatly deny Christ. But moral realization has it that one will realize the "dividing of the soul and spirit," due to the Word being manifest in their "Heart!"
A person lacking morals is not likely to repent, receive salvation, and follow Christ as his Lord and Savior.
In Jn 19:30 we read: “Jesus gave up his pneuma”(spirit) to the Father, and, in the same Gospel (Jn 10:15), Jesus gave up His “psuchē (soul) for the sheep,” and in Mt 20:28 He gave His psuchē (not His pneuma) as a ransom—a difference which is characteristic. For the pneuma stands in quite a different relation to God from the psuchē. The “spirit” (pneuma) is the outbreathing of God into the creature, the life-principle derived from God. The “soul” (psuchē) is man’s individual possession (the "I"), that which distinguishes one man from another and from inanimate nature. The pneuma of Christ was surrendered to the Father in death; His psuchē was surrendered, His individual life was given, “a ransom for many.” His life “was given for the sheep”.
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Michael Harrison
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So to stand by what I said, which gets 'lost' because of the 'personal attacks' ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
quote:
It's me! quote:
Reprobate means not having a knowledge of what HE does in reconciling the believer to Himself. This includes things like 'dividing asunder' soul and spirit, by His presence in the believer. See the verse about "Behold I stand at the door (which is the heart), and knock."
The reason this is true is because (using 'your' definition), is that a person 'lacking' morals, is so because they are 'out of relationship' or flatly deny Christ. But moral realization has it that one will realize the "dividing of the soul and spirit," due to the Word being manifest in their "Heart!"
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Michael Harrison
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Main Entry: 1rep·ro·bate
Pronunciation: \ˈre-prə-ˌbāt\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): rep·ro·bat·ed; rep·ro·bat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin reprobatus, past participle of reprobare — more at reprove
Date: 15th century
1 : to condemn strongly as unworthy, unacceptable, or evil
2 : to foreordain to damnation
3 : to refuse to accept : reject [as in, to reject, i.e. not to know, Jesus]
But the definition that I had all those years ago read: Not to 'retain' a knowledge of God. I don't know where, but it is there. and it is clear.
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Carol Swenson
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REPROBATE KJV term used in two senses:
1. That which fails to meet a test and is thus rejected as unworthy or unacceptable, as impure silver (Jer. 6:30); or persons (2 Cor. 13:5-7; Titus 1:16).
2. That which is depraved or without morals (Rom. 1:28; 2 Tim. 3:8).
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Michael Harrison
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Reprobate: The Bible definition: "Not having a knowledge of God, in a personal sense."
I mean, what other definition can an unregenerate person come up with than one such as "lacking moral scruples." That is why one should go to the 'source' for understanding. Else the 'world' will deceive the naieve.
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Carol Swenson
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Reprobate
NOUN
A person without moral scruples
VERB
Abandon to eternal damnation
"God reprobated the unrepenting sinner"
scourage - word not found - no such word.
What is the scourage of a reprobate?
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Michael Harrison
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Revelation 3:20 (NLT)
20“ Look! I stand at the door and knock . If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.
This also dodges the bullet. Jesus says that HE will come in, and HE wasn't knocking at the door of the apartment. He was knocking at the door 'which is the heart'. And HE said that HE will 'sup' with the one who opens the door.
- Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Therefore if the door is shut, no fruit is borne.
- 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Reprobate means not having a knowledge of what HE does in reconciling the believer to Himself. This includes things like 'dividing asunder' soul and spirit, by His presence in the believer. See the verse about "Behold I stand at the door (which is the heart), and knock."
- 1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
There is the 'anointing' and there is the 'carnal understanding' which tries to replace the anointing.
And He abides in you. So, you abide in each other, else you are reprobate.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
And what is the scourage of a reprobate, after all, worth?
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Carol Swenson
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If you mean people who believe that Bible stories are just stories for teaching, not events that actually happened, then I agree.
But if you mean that the Bible, and our Lord Jesus Christ, never used metaphors, then I don't agree.
John 10:7 (NLT) 7so he explained it to them: “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.
Matthew 7:13 (NLT) 13“ You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate.
Revelation 3:20 (NLT)
20“ Look! I stand at the door and knock . If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends.
Matthew 7:15 - 16 (NLT)
15“Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves.
And many more metaphors...
(A figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity.)
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Michael Harrison
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If you have a metaphorical rationality concerning the understanding of the the word, then you have a metaphorical spirituality.
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