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Author Topic: Two believers
Michael Harrison
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quote:
Tell me instead, how happy are you in Christ and how did you get there; and then maybe I'll copy some of your methods; or, maybe not, or only one or two.

If I say that it is not in 'doing', and someone says that I am not telling them 'what to do', what am I to think? If it is not in doing, and I have so said, over and over, what would make someone ask about my methods? It is in the having. It is the 'revelation', or the revealing, which one will receive if he is simply willing to turn from (repent). It is not up to one to be strong in his own self - to overcome, because we can't. But overcoming is done for us.

Ok! Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Therefore, hearing the word should translate into faith of having. So I have described that what the believer needs to know, is easily discovered by translating the word 'law' in the book of Galations to 'doing', and the word 'faith' to the word 'having'.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey [by believing] the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the doing [ law], or by the hearing of having [faith]?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh [by your doing]?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the 'doing' [law][In other words, can he do it by trying?], or by the hearing of having [faith][For who does the doing if one is believing and receiving?].
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness [having].
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith [having], the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through having [faith], preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith [through having] are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the doing [law] are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the doing [law] to 'do' them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the doing [law] in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by having [faith][because HE is doing].
Gal 3:12 And the doing [law] is not of having [faith]: but, The man that 'doeth' them shall live in [doing] them [which is different than having].

So, having eliminates 'doing'. That is the 'law' of God under the New Testament - having! One is 'changed' by having, only if they are "surrendered" to it. For the only condition is that he/she believe unto having [because they realize that HE is doing, and they benefit therefore by having] which requires an exchange. That means that one believes that by the presence of Jesus Christ in the believer, as a result of being born again, one has everything they need not to "abide in sin," (notice how I said that), that their daily need is met, therefore one can live by Him, the "Bread of Life." Their steps are ordered of the Lord. That means that HE meets every situation for them, step by step, as they trust HIM for it, and all that they have to do is 'have'; whatever the need is, His will, not theirs.

This does not justify sin, or shortcoming.

"For all have sinned and come short of the Glory, of God."

Short of the Glory??? That means that they come short of shining 'with HIM'. One doesn't shine in shortcoming. And He died so that we could 'shine' with Him, and more appropiately, by Him.

But doing to have is eliminated by the Grace, Love, and Wisdom of our God. It is hard to grasp but having means that we can PRODUCE, good fruit. (Show me your faith by your works [James]).

The key ingredient besides faith is Jesus. One must believe unto letting Him 'do' it, thanking HIM that HE is. Thereby do they live by Him, and not the flesh.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
love, Eden
"make love our aim"

Love does not condone error! And on the rest of what you said, one hopes you are right. But usually such language is the voice of someone hiding something.

But since I have been on this board I have been telling:

quote:
Tell me instead, how happy are you in Christ and how did you get there; and then maybe I'll copy some of your methods; or, maybe not, or only one or two.

...and quoting scripture. No more can I do than I have already done. If you don't receive it, is it between you and me?
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote to Eden
quote:
The Spirit whom I know is in the reader's homes! I don't think you capable of understanding what that means though!
Yes, the Spirit whom I know is indeed in the readers' homes; but He is guiding the readers in their homes, and He is guiding YOU in your home. But the Spirit is NOT gossiping to YOU about WHAT the readers and the Spirit are currently DISCUSSING with each other. They are NOT tale-bearers.

Nor do I think that the HOLY SPIRIT told you to say THIS to me, "I don't think you are capable of understanding what that means though". I don't think the Holy Spirit told you to say THAT to me either because God is LOVE and that is NOT a love statement. It is a "superiority" statement and also prejudging what I am capable of. You have NO IDEA what the Holy Spirit and I, or what the Holy Spirit and other readers, are capable of.

You are again meddling in other people's business. What happens between each Christian and the Holy Spirit is THEIR business and THEIR business only. Not yours.

Each Christian is different, depending on their knowledge of God:

2 Corinthians 2:14
Now thanks be unto God, which always causes us to triumph in Christ, and makes manifest the savor of His knowledge by us in every place.

So, to repeat what you said, Michael Harrison, to Eden
quote:
The Spirit whom I know is in the reader's homes!
Yes, the Spirit whom I know is indeed in the readers' homes; but He is busy guiding those readers in their homes and in THEIR daily lives.

And the Spirit is guiding YOU in your home (if so be that He is guiding you). But the Spirit is NOT GOSSIPING TO YOU about WHAT the Spirit and the readers are currently DISCUSSING in THEIR homes. The Spirit is NOT a tatle-tale.

There is NO NEED for the Spirit to go report to Michael Harrison what the Spirit and the other readers have been discussing today and what they have done today.

Tell me instead, how happy are you in Christ and how did you get there; and then maybe I'll copy some of your methods; or, maybe not, or only one or two.

Romans 14:4
But, who are you who judges another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls...

love, Eden
"make love our aim"

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
RE the part I bolded, you are again making assumptions that you cannot know since you are NOT in the readers' homes. You do NOT know what registers with readers and what does not.

The Spirit whom I know is in the reader's homes! I don't think you capable of understanding what that means though!
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Michael Harrison
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Well carmela, what is manifest? Rather, which is manifest? If someone (I don't mean this personal, but people in general) faults how you do something, do you minister the spirit, or does your flesh get the upper hand? That would be walkin in the flesh. If someone cuts in the line in front of you at Mcdonald's because the cashier took them before you, what happens inside? What makes it outside; that is, how do you react? Because, if you walk in the Spirit, you have a "What would Jesus do situation." Only I like to think of it as, "What will Jesus do, since HE has activly placed His spirit in us, and if we are "Walking in the Spirit," the fruit we bear will be out of Him. So, the condition of the heart is paramount if we are to know what it means to walk in the Spirit, and minister by the Spirit.

This is not the condition of the heart for most who are believing, because they justify obeying the flesh, and insist that they have no other choice, citing even, Romans chapter seven, and 1 John. That is perhaps why I sound arrogant (which I try not to). Because people will not receive it, and would rather I went away. All I am saying is what scripture says. (I have to look at myself as I say it because I 'take some liberties'.) [Frown]

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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote
quote:
This is what Paul was doing, yet, all that registers with the readers is what he said in Romans Seven ...
RE the part I bolded, you are again making assumptions that you cannot know since you are NOT in the readers' homes. You do NOT know what registers with readers and what does not.

You also said
quote:
So the devil makes it sound like I am being harsh, but it is not so.
Really...is the devil working that closely with you?

love, Eden

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Carmela
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Michael, if you are saying that we are to walk in the spirit instead of the flesh, then aren't you basically saying the same as everyone else here is saying? I'll be honest and say that when I first read your posts you were come across as kind of arrogant and as if you think you are better than others. However, I wanted to really understand what you are trying to say, in spite of how you seemed to come across as judging others and being critical of us. Yet in your last post, you basically said the same thing as many others are saying.

You said:
quote:
"Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Surely we are not perfect in the flesh, that is why we are commanded not to walk in it! It cannot be perfected. It cannot be improved. So why the observation, "We are not perfect in the flesh?"

Walking in the Spirit is something 'beyond' the norm. It is something that Jesus empowers us to do, if we will only.



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Michael Harrison
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Graciously accepted betty louise!

Mind you, while I have your attention, I do not mean to insult you even a little. It just is a fact of reality that there is a condition of the believer wherein he or she does not realize, or better yet, admit to. The devil makes us to feel it is unnecessary to bother with it, and for that matter, that we should cover it up. So I am not judging you. I am simply aware of the reality of the fallen nature common to us all. And without pointing out that reality, it is hard to illustrate the provision of our Lord, which is available to us all. This is what Paul was doing, yet, all that registers with the readers is what he said in Romans Seven, or what Peter said in one solitary verse, that "If we say we have no sin..." All the rest of scripture seems secondary to these two excerpts because the believer more easily understands their failure. But God's love is so much greater than that, in that He provided a way that we could abide in Him without sinning, that we may have fellowship with Him. What is that worth? If one will admit it, it would be worth everything that there is. So the devil makes it sound like I am being harsh, but it is not so.

I mean, do you have days when the clouds hide His face? Are you aware that that is not His wisdom, or His plan? He wants to come close.

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Betty Louise
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Michael,

You don't know me, nor do you know whether I sin or don't sin. I will leave the judging of me to God.
As far as I am concern you live in the clouds to think you never sin, but then again, I will leave your judging to God. When you meet face to face with God, you can complain about that chapter in the Bible
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Michael Harrison
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carmela:

"Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Surely we are not perfect in the flesh, that is why we are commanded not to walk in it! It cannot be perfected. It cannot be improved. So why the observation, "We are not perfect in the flesh?"

Walking in the Spirit is something 'beyond' the norm. It is something that Jesus empowers us to do, if we will only.

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Carmela
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So, I think what comes to my mind is that we are not perfect in flesh, but we are perfect in spirit because of the blood of Jesus. I know what I'm trying to say, hope it makes sense to others. Is this kind of what you are saying Michael. I'm only asking questions to try to grasp a better understanding of what you are saying.

Thanks Eden. I appreciate your comment and your gift. I have something for you also that I think you will appreciate. I just need to find it. It's called The Harness of the Lord and comes from Pinecrest. It's about putting on a harness like a horse does and then being able to be turned in whichever direction the Lord turns us in without putting up a fuss first. I've sent it to others and wish I could send one to everyone because it's really good.

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Eden
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Hi, Carmela, you wrote to Eden
quote:
Eden, although I see what you are saying, It seems to me that in a way you are basically saying what oneinchrist did only adding 2 repentance scenarios as far as I can tell. I don't remember the bible talking about 2 different types of repentance but I would like to read what you are referring to. Could you please show some scriptures so I can do more research.
I actually have only one repentance, but I divided it up into 2 parts to illustrate how my repentance would work within Christianity.

But I would edit my former statement by saying even my first repentance would have to include being sorry for being a sinner because of my soul rule, and then even after salvation I basically continue to perform the same kind of repentance, namely, not to take up soul rule, to be sorry for my new sins, and to continue to believe in what Jesus did for me.

So you are right, it is basically the same repentance that works on both sides of salvation and into sanctification. Thanks for calling me on that, I think this version is better.

BTW, thanks for participating and working in the vineyard of the LORD. The LORD pays an UNBELIEVABLE SALARY to those who work in His vineyard. Be blessed therefore. BTW, I sent the book Friday (yesterday).

love, Eden

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Michael Harrison wrote
quote:
I'm so tired of that chapter in the Bible. Why did Paul put it in there.
Paul did not put it there, the Holy Spirit put it in there. Are you now tired of what the Holy Spirit put in there? And which chapter is that, my brother?

love, Eden
"then sings my soul, my Savior God to me"

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Michael Harrison wrote, regarding what WildB wrote[quote]WildB, I think we could be the happy, happy, Joy, Joy.[/quote}I totally agree; God has been blessing my socks off because I have been delighting myself in the LORD, and now He is giving me all the desires of my heart. I am living life MORE ABUNDANTLY!

I can be the happy, happy, Joy, Joy.
love, Eden

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Carmela wrote to Michael Harrison
quote:
I do agree with you, but I am still confused about what you are saying when you say you are perfected.
I do think that if we are currently believing in Christ, then in God's sight we are already POSITIONALLY PERFECTED, meaning that God already COUNTS US AS PERFECT as long as we continue to believe in what Jesus did for us on the cross. Is that also what you meant, Michael Harrison?

love, Eden

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Hello, Michael Harrison, you wrote
quote:
Inbetween what we see as sin is usually filled with what we don't even notice.
I was just wondering how we can see inbetween what is sin if we don't even notice?

love, Eden

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Michael Harrison
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[zzzzzz] I'm so tired of that chapter in the Bible. Why did Paul put it in there.

Most likely betty louise, you have never risen above sin, but are a prisioner of it around the clock. There is what we see as sin, and there is what HE sees as sin. Inbetween what we see as sin is usually filled with what we don't even notice. But Jesus died to lift us above it, so that HE would be in our thoughts every moment, even whether waking or sleeping.

Sin keeps us from being near to Him. If we are near to Him, sin cannot persist. It dissapates. We cannot be near to Him, and sinning at the same time. And Paul was not saying that sin was inevitable in that book of Romans. HE was saying that if one tries to keep the law, all he would know is failure. And how many times does it say in the bible that it is by faith, not trying. The reason is that we receive something by faith. That is victory, not failure, peppered with repentance.

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Betty Louise
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13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23).

“What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24).

1Ki 8:46 ¶ If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

I wish I could say I never sin, but like most people I do fall short in actions and in thoughts.
This is why it is important to ask forgiveness regularly.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Michael Harrison
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Jesus is our perfection, and He doesn't sin. So if we 'partake' of His perfection through faith, we step into the light. The only thing that clouds the picture, diminishing the light, is if we doubt.
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Carmela
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WildB, I think we could be the happy, happy, Joy, Joy if the first thing we did was seek Jesus as soon as we awake, pray, (praise and worship) in the morning, noon and night. Then, we won't be reacting from ourselves, but interacting with Jesus daily. It's our thought lives that keep us distracted and bring us down.

Now I think I'm getting a clearer picture of what you're saying Michael. I thought you were claiming to be perfect. What you are saying is that we are perfected by Jesus through faith. I wonder though how we can confess this when we know our sins. I guess that's where it takes an even greater measure of faith.

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Michael Harrison
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The purpose of sin is to try to steal you away from Jesus. [Cross]
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Michael Harrison
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[Cross] If one is listening to the spirit of man within him, he is fruitless, for he is listening to a dead man.

quote:
Eden
quote:
But when we, during the course of the day, again take up soul rule or flesh rule, instead of spirit rule, then we sin. Probably ALL soul rule or flesh rule is automatically sin.


Yes! This means that the soul is on the throne of one's own heart, therefore Jesus is cast off of the throne as one obeys the 'flesh'.
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Michael Harrison
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[happyhappy] Carmela! Anyone who knows me will be quick as a kneejerk to point out that I am not perfect. And never should one be oblivious to such criticism about them, else their condition might become really questionable (See 1Pet2:20), and there is possibly some truth in the critique! Having said that, Jesus is perfect, and they found fault with Him, to the extent that they even killed Him. ??? Yes! So don't let the accuser of the brethren deceive you. You are not created (from above) to abide in failure waiting for a blessed day. That day is here.

Jesus made it easy for us. He is not only God, He is our big brother; and by His obedience, He set the example that we can also realize. But in that HE made it easy to, He says so in these verses:

  • Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Who do you know that claims His name, who is not struggling? Is that not contrary to these very very clear verses? So, do you not wonder, why did He say that if it were not going to be apparent in anyone? Do you know anybody in whom it is apparent? Here is something else that Jesus said:

  • Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Now! You have to take into consideration who is speaking. And you have to take into consideration what HE is 'not' saying. Because the word of God is read with blinders on even by His own!!! And what HE is not saying is for you to 'do' this. Let's face it, HE knows you can't! That is why He died. Neither does HE anywhere, command you to do what you cannot. But whatever HE commands, He does! That is why 11:30 says, "My yoke is easy," because HE DOES IT. That is what is called "Grace." Without it we would utterly fail and this conversation would be utterly useless.

Again, take into consideration that HE who said, "Be ye perfect," said also, "Let there be light." He said it. He did it! So if you read it properly, He did not tell you to 'do' something, but rather to 'have' something (The bible is mistakenly read this 'do' way). Therefore, for this to be manifest, one's faith has to be perfect! That is all. No big deal!!! That is what HE is after, and HE has made this possible through perfect faith, plain and simple. And what is perfect faith? Allow Him show you. For all the words in the world will not communicate what only He can. But after all, how hard is it to believe who HE says HE is (or does)?

I will tell you that it is the most personal that your relationship can be, for one must trust with abandon. They must realize through faith what HE has done and is doing. Then one is totally invested in Him, and as a byproduct, understands what it means to, "Love Him with all their heart, soul, mind and strength," as it is written that we are to do. And it all begins to fall into place when you get it.

Jesus is absolute. Faith is absolute, and sanctification is absolute! That is because Jesus is absolute. So faith in Jesus can be "perfect." And what does that then make you, by faith? And what is faith if it doesn't work? (James: show me your faith, and I will show you the fruit of my faith, which is the works that it produces.)

And what 'more' is all of this about? Well, transgression is doing what Jesus does not want you to do, right? Do you believe that it is possible 'not' to do what HE would disapprove of, even in thought? Do you believe that it is possible not to transgress Him? Remember! Jesus set the example, and these verses are for our encouragement regarding this very thing:

  • Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


This simply says that HE set the example. He did it. And if we are in fear of transgressing Him, we can read Heb 4:16!!!

"By grace we are saved through faith." That throne of grace is the work of Jesus, the living word of God, and faith is the 'implementation' thereof. For what does HE say happens, "If we believe?" Do we receive?

You cannot 'do' it by trying. That is attempting to keep the law. But you can have it by trusting! That is the reason for faith. So, "Be ye perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect," is something you can walk in by faith, for He who said it performs it that we may abide in it.


[Bible]

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Carmela
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Hi Michael. Now I have a better understanding of what you have been saying from your last post. I do agree with you, but I am still confused about what you are saying when you say you are perfected. I think you had said you are perfect, right? I would love to think I'm perfect, but I know that there are times when I make a decision hastily and I don't take the time to pray first. Then, I am more apt to make the wrong decision, outside of God's will. It may or may not lead to sin, but it's still a decision outside of God's will.

I know right from wrong so I do try to avoid sin. I know how selfish my flesh can be so I try to seek the Lord always, but I still haven't reach perfection. I think that's where I seem to be losing what you're trying to say. I do want to understand where you are coming from though. Sorry I am bringing up old posts again but pain kept me from the computer for a few days.

Oneinchrist, I totally agree with you posts. I look forward to reading more of your posts and learning from you.

Eden, although I see what you are saying, It seems to me that in a way you are basically saying what oneinchrist did only adding 2 repentance scenarios as far as I can tell. I don't remember the bible talking about 2 different types of repentance but I would like to read what you are referring to. Could you please show some scriptures so I can do more research.
Thanks.

Carmela

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Eden
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Yes, Michael Harrison, I agree with what you wrote here:
quote:
Sin is a hard to handle subject. That said, we all have sin. I noticed you said that, and I agree that scripture says so. The point that I would make about those verses is that what it means that we all have sin, is, apart from Christ we do. At any point in time, if we diverge from Christ, we have sin because we are not trusting Him to deliver us. It is an in or out thing.

The reason I say it this way, is that if we are properly trusting Christ, we are 'delivered' from sin, and delivered from sinning. That is what we are seeking for, 'Properly trusting Christ'. In scriptural terms, that means, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these will be added on."

When we are listening to God thru His Spirit and His Word, we will not sin, because God does not give sin messages, God only gives truth messages.

But when we, during the course of the day, again take up soul rule or flesh rule, instead of spirit rule, then we sin. Probably ALL soul rule or flesh rule is automatically sin.

love, Eden

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Hi, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
One reason that I believe it so very important to understand the meaning of repentance...
I think there are 2 repentances.

The first repentance is becoming willing to cease from operating our bodies from the soul level and becoming willing to allow the spirit of man to operate the soul and the body again, as it was with Adam and Eve before they sinned.

That first repentance causes us to be saved (provided I continually rely on that first repentance), and then the second repentance is after being saved, in which I am willing to acknowledge that I can and do still sin and I am willing to confess it as sin to the Lord on an ongoing basis.

With the help of God I will sin less than before I was saved, but both of these repentances are needed, plus the regular reading of the Word of God, and of course now also listening to the spirit of man, for a wholesome and fruitful and abundant relationship with God.

But being willing to sin less, with the help of God's methods, is part of the second repentance, not of the first repentance.

It seems to me that the first repenantance is ceasing from my own works, acknowledging the work that the Lord Jesus did in my behalf, and now God is allowed to counsel my spirit again.

The second repentance comes after salvation and deals more with continual confession, yes, I have sinned, Lord.

love, Eden

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oneinchrist
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One reason that I believe it so very important to understand the meaning of repentance is because it has to do with the attitude that we have towards sin. In light of the gospel message,in repentance, we should have a changed attitude towards God and towards sin. God has given us reason to repent and change our minds about sin..... the hope in a resurrected life.

When temptation comes along, I do not necessarily believe that a dose of the Holy Spirit will suddenly fall on me to cause me to resist, but I believe it quite plausible that God will look upon me in my trial and see if I choose to resist because of the Hope He has given me. In many ways, I believe that our help is our hope. If I continue to give into temptations I do believe that I can harden my heart and fall away from the faith.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hello, KnowHim, you wrote
quote:
Eden, can you explain why you are always defending sin and wanting to see just how much sin you can get away with.
This is not a correct interpretation of what I said, or meant to say. I am not at all interested in sinning; to the contrary, now that I have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to help me, I expect and trust that I will sin LESS than I did when I was NOT saved.

But for me it is a matter of trust and faith in God that, when I go WITH God, I will sin less than I did before.

But at the same time I know that, as Paul said, there is a sin principle in my members, so that in this life, we can mostly only serve God with our mind, but our members can still sin:

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Or, perhaps I ought to ask what YOU think the above scripture means?

To me it means that in this first Adamic life that I now have, I can serve God with my mind, but my body may still go its own way?
I'm not defending sin by saying that my body still goes its own way, but at the same time I'm saying that's what Paul himself said.

But my main point is that anyone who now has the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to help him, that person will sin less than they did before. That is just common sense to me.

I'm not advocating a "loose cannon" attitude toward sin, but rather a "trust" attitude that God will help me, to the extent that we can be helped in this life before we are glorified.

love, Eden

I agree. God will help.

>> Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

>> Or, perhaps I ought to ask what YOU think the above scripture means?

It means that we are to serve God and not willingly sin. But we know that we all are going to die because of sin. It is what kills the body and 100% of all die sooner or later. If a drunk driver don't kill you or something else then old age will. It is sin that does us in.


.

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Zeena
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Rom 6:16~
to whom ye yield yourselves.. [Wink]

Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
I do believe that 1John makes a distinction that I was trying to express in regards to sin. In one passage he states that if we say that we have no sin that we call God a liar......but in another passage he states that a man that is born from above does not sin. How do we make sense of that?

What is John trying to tell us? In my best heart attempt to understand John this is what I come up with................

That we all have sin (born-again or not), but that born-again believers do not commit willfull/intentful/premeditated sin as a way of life.

I know it seems that I harass you oneinchrist. I don't mean to. [updown] FWIW! If you don't mind, let me say:

Sin is a hard to handle subject. That said, we all have sin. I noticed you said that, and I agree that scripture says so. The point that I would make about those verses is that what it means that we all have sin, is, apart from Christ we do. At any point in time, if we diverge from Christ, we have sin because we are not trusting Him to deliver us. It is an in or out thing.

The reason I say it this way, is that if we are properly trusting Christ, we are 'delivered' from sin, and delivered from sinning. That is what we are seeking for, 'Properly trusting Christ'. In scriptural terms, that means, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these will be added on." There is a mode of properly trusting Christ, which is why He said to Abraham that he believed, and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

But in that we are born from above does not mean that we are 'experiencing' deliverance from sin. We can be born from above, and be flat full of it. That is because we don't know how to overcome. And we think that we overcome by trying. Therefore, we can't, plain and simple. Because trying will only fail. Hence we have the chapter in Romans saying:

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for 'to will' is present with me; but 'how to perform that which is good' I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is what it means about 'trying' to keep the law. Because trying to keep the law, is trying to overcome sin. (See verse 18) But we don't overcome it by trying, but rather by faith. And one will find that at every point in the epistles, if they are looking.

But here is the reason I talk about 'having' vs. 'doing'. All sin comes from trying to have that which HE has not given us (or so it seems, He hasn't). But the point of faith is that HE has given us everything that we need. That means that we are having. Therefore, if we are having, we need not transgress HIm by 'trying' to have. HE fills us. He fulfills us. When we believe this, and we begin to walk in it, we realize that we do not have to 'lust' after anything, for HE is our provider.

Of course, this means we have to surrender. We have to trust in His provision, according to His will. Then we can realize that all our need is met:

  • Php 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

This includes the grace to give up that which HE does not desire for us. That word 'all' is the biggest three letter word there is. Huge! And here is where our rejoicing is! He is to us what we need. And if we turn from the 'beggarly elements' to discover who He is to us, we experience deliverance from sin as per:

  • Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin does not, under the circumstance of faith, have dominion over us. It cannot compel us. It cannot make us cooperate. We do not have to obey it!

  • Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This does not mean we are not tempted. We are in a sluice of temptation, often fast and furious and heavy. It is the compromising with it which we are spared from. This is because, since we are not under law, we are under grace, which 'giveth' us what we need whatever that is.

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Hello, KnowHim, you wrote
quote:
Eden, can you explain why you are always defending sin and wanting to see just how much sin you can get away with.
This is not a correct interpretation of what I said, or meant to say. I am not at all interested in sinning; to the contrary, now that I have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to help me, I expect and trust that I will sin LESS than I did when I was NOT saved.

But for me it is a matter of trust and faith in God that, when I go WITH God, I will sin less than I did before.

But at the same time I know that, as Paul said, there is a sin principle in my members, so that in this life, we can mostly only serve God with our mind, but our members can still sin:

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Or, perhaps I ought to ask what YOU think the above scripture means?

To me it means that in this first Adamic life that I now have, I can serve God with my mind, but my body may still go its own way?
I'm not defending sin by saying that my body still goes its own way, but at the same time I'm saying that's what Paul himself said.

But my main point is that anyone who now has the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to help him, that person will sin less than they did before. That is just common sense to me.

I'm not advocating a "loose cannon" attitude toward sin, but rather a "trust" attitude that God will help me, to the extent that we can be helped in this life before we are glorified.

love, Eden

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KnowHim
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Eden,

Can you explain why you are always defending sin and wanting to see just how much sin you can get away with.

Do you not know that sin is what caused Christ to be placed on the cross?

Do you enjoy sinning so much that you don't care that sin placed Him there?

Anyone that actually knows Jesus Christ does not want to willfully sin.

As for your debate scenario, if one knows Christ there is no need to debate. If one is save and knows Jesus Christ they don't debate if they are going to intentionally sin, knowing they are placing it on Jesus Christ. If you know Him you will not because you love Him. If you do then you have not come to know Him yet and need to seek Him.

May God open your eyes and let you see that we are to try our best to live as God wants us to.

We are not suppost to plan on how much sin we can get away with.

There is no debate, when you knowingly start to do something sinful. - > DON'T

It is easy if you actaully know and love Jesus Christ and are not living for self and putting self as number one. So if this is where you are you need to ask the Lord Jesus Christ to help you get to know Him.

1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

The bible makes this very clear and very simple so trying to explain away deliberate intentional sin is not going to cut it.


.

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oneinchrist
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Good morning Eden,
Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a fearful looking for judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Eden, I am not sure what you are trying to prove. I have never said that I do not sin. But I do not think that it is good for either of us to develop a passive attitude towards sin either. That is when I believe that we lean towards danger.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Hi, oneinchrist, will you do a favor and post this verse (again) that you mentioned:
quote:
In the book of Hebrews we are warned against willfull sin after having come to the knowledge of the truth.
Thank you.

But let me ask you...when you know the Word of God and you go about along in your daily life, and you are confronted with a particular item that you want to do, do you really stand there in public having a "debate with yourself", lasting perhaps a few minutes while your wife waits impatiently..."honey, what are you doing!?", or is it not more truthful that you end up doing what you really want to do and you practically, have no such debate?

And if you were to have such a debate, can you please describe for me the last time you had such a debate with yourself and what it was about and who won?

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

love, Eden

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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I cannot agree that all sin is willfull sin. If I have knowledge of Gods will in a circumstance in my life and I decide that I am going to go against it, I willfully sin......but, on the other hand if I do not have the knowledge of or am ignorant of Gods will in a given circumstance I cannot willfully sin against God then, but nevertheless I sin. In the book of Hebrews we are warned against willfull sin after having come to the knowledge of the truth.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Eden
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Hello, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
I do believe that 1John makes a distinction that I was trying to express in regards to sin. In one passage he states that if we say that we have no sin that we call God a liar......but in another passage he states that a man that is born from above does not sin. How do we make sense of that?

What is John trying to tell us? In my best heart attempt to understand John this is what I come up with................

That we all have sin (born-again or not), but that born-again believers do not commit willfull/intentful/premeditated sin as a way of life.

RE the man who is born from above does not sin...I think that can mean one of two things:

(1) when John is speaking of the bornagain man not sinning, John may have had the glorified-body, resurrected man in mind when John said the man who is born from above does not sin, and certainly he would not sin again; or

(2) whatever a man hears from his spirit of man directly from God can NEVER be sin because God does not sin. Therefore all that is bornagain in a man is NOT sin, but that which is flesh can and does sin.

Lastly, I would repeat that there is NO such thing as non-intentional, non-willful sin; at some point it all was intentional and willful but once it became a "habit" it no longer "appeared" to be "willful" and "intentional" but it all still is.

love, Eden

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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
I was gone a while again. Sorry I didnt notice your response to my post a little sooner.

I do believe that 1John makes a distinction that I was trying to express in regards to sin. In one passage he states that if we say that we have no sin that we call God a liar......but in another passage he states that a man that is born from above does not sin. How do we make sense of that?

What is John trying to tell us? In my best heart attempt to understand John this is what I come up with................

That we all have sin (born-again or not), but that born-again believers do not commit willfull/intentful/premeditated sin as a way of life.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Michael Harrison
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Someone recently pointed out that the numbering and chapter creating in the Bible was not in the original text. It came later. Recently however there was an e-mail floating around that highlighted exciting features which were evident in the chapter and verse enumeration of the scriptures. I fully enjoyed these discoveries because they clearly indicate that God has the oversight, always. (Lo, I am with you even to the ends of the earth.) I will go so far to say that the numbering was not anymore without inspiration, whether the scribes who initiated it realized it or not. For God IS. And it is impossible for some of the features brought out by the enumeration, not to be of design. At the very least, they reveal a bit of it.

But to give example, we think of God as though He inspired the writers to write, then He went away to do something else maybe. Yea? Well, people who read the original epistles probably sat around saying that they were just something that some ol guy named Paul, penned out. They weren't the 'originals'.

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Eden
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Carol Swenson wrote
quote:
Just speaking from my heart here, I believe that God has protected His Word through the centuries so we will learn what He wants us to learn as the Holy Spirit leads us.
It amazes me how through the dangerous centuries God has protected His word. It's interesting that God waited until the 16th century of our time until either MAN invented the printing press or God waited until the 16th century to let man invent the printing press.

After the printing press, the Bible was "out".

love, Eden

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Carol Swenson
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Hi Eden

Just speaking from my heart here, I believe that God has protected His Word through the centuries so we will learn what He wants us to learn as the Holy Spirit leads us.

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Eden
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Carmela wrote
quote:
Michael the original translation of the bible was the actual text so as I see it...
Carmela, only the original manuscripts of the writers of the New Testament are the actual texts, and ALL the translations, yes and even the COPIES, are all prone to "scribal error" and are thus no longer "perfect".

We probably do not have the ORIGINAL writing of the first writers of the New Testament, so at this point I say that the Bible is an ERRANT Bible (meaning, now it has mistakes in the form of scribal errors and copyists errors and translators errors).

But the Bible IS INFALLIBLE, meaning that WAHT IT SAYS in the Bible SURELY WILL COME TO PASS.

I love my INFALLIBLE Bible. I'm relying on the INFALLIBLE Bible and not on the INERRANT Bible, and I believe that the first writings of the Bible were INERRANT. Anyone agree with this?

love, Eden

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Carmela
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Michael the original translation of the bible was the actual text so as I see it, it's you that is changing things. (I say this lovingly, not rudely even though it may come across that way in written form)

I guess if you think you are perfect though, then no one here can do anything to help you, teach you, guide you or anything else because you are the only person in this forum or even the wrold, that I know, who thinks he is equal to Jesus since the bible clearly tells us that only Jesus is and was perfect when he walked on this earth.

The one thing I love about this forum is that I can learn from others, I get challenged by others and I meet new people (sort of). I sure am glad that I am not under any false assumption that I'm perfect or I wouldn't have any other reason to be here since I have a desire to learn. I don't get angry at people and I don't get offended if anyone disagrees with me, so it's a win/win situation for me here. I take the nuggets that some people place before me and I ignore the things that don't bear witness to me.

I think you took my example of sinning so quickly as if I'm personally saying I'm that weak. Oh how you underestimate me. [Big Grin] I don't think I'm perfect but I'm a much stronger woman than you seem to think. I may be able to stay sin free for one minute. I don't know about 2 or 3 [Wink] or how long it will be before my tongue, thoughts or actions escape me briefly and sin enters in. I refuse to stay in that sin longer than a moment though and that's what sets me apart from a non-obedient Christian that is choosing to sin and look the other way as if the Lord isn't seeing what they are involved in.

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Eden
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In the process of sanctification, I do have to do something, namely, I have to read the Word of God and I have to listen to my spirit of man. These are my 2 obligations, and God will do His part, from the inside, by way of the Spirit of God instructing/counseling my spirit and God will do His part, from the outside, by the words of the Word of God.

John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in Me.

So in sanctification I have to do my part.

love, Eden

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Zeena,
You have quoted a lot more verses of Scripture and added some more comentary. Here is a quotation from your statement that raises a basic question with me.

I quoted ONE more verse of Scripture, didn't I? [Confused]

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: [hyper]

quote:
Bob:
quote:
Zeena:
Sanctification is now no longer dependant upon me, but the work of God in and through me as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life.

With my understanding of the English language, this phrase as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life means that the subject (the process of Sanctification) is somewhat dependent up "me", the object of the action.
I died, was buried, and was raised to newness of life in Christ Jesus.

It is His Life I've recieved, yes, the Eternal Life of God! But I too [the new me] am present, and made His witness.

It's Him who now works in me, it is His Life! [Big Grin]
To say that "I" work is to take glory for myself when there is none to be had.. "I" rely on Jesus to do His Work in and through me.
All Glory to the Son of God!
He both saved me, and is become my Righteousness of God. He's my Life and my Salvation! [Big Grin]
Every word in the above is Scriptural truth. But can only be revealed by the inwelling Holy Spirit.
But now that I have recieved Him [the initial act of faith on MY part which placed me in Him [yet, by God's Grace alone, wherwith I have nothing with which to boast, except Him!]], He is become the Righteousness of God which believes His Father in and through me.

My soul is still active, mind you!
Actively trusting, resting and abiding in His Provision, wherewith He bestowed upon me the Person of Jesus! [Smile]

It's ALL Jesus, or it's nothing.

quote:
One of my basic points of difference with Michael Harrison is that he seems to remove all personal action (work) of "me" from God's work of "santification" in "me". I think that several of us in this Forum have this same problem with Michael Harrison's apparent beliefs regarding salvation and santification. I have the same problem with you, if you share his belief.
I actively cooperate with Divine Grace.
I labour with the Grace of God and I would gladly be spent for your soul, yet not "I", but the Grace of God which is with me.

I willingly chose to forgo myself and put myself in subjection to His Holy Spirit so that His Life is clearly seen.

quote:
This is a brief response to your post, but I think that is best to keep such posts brief, so I'm focusing on only the above point.
And, I'll have you note, not one verse of Scripture! haha!

Though, I stand at the ready to post them [Wink]
For my delight [in Christ], is in the Word of God given us in Scripture [Smile]

OK, lol, just ONE, ok?
I just CAN'T contain The Word!

2 Corinthians 10:17
"Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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TB125
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Zeena,
You have quoted a lot more verses of Scripture and added some more comentary. Here is a quotation from your statement that raises a basic question with me.

quote:
Sanctification is now no longer dependant upon me, but the work of God in and through me as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life.
With my understanding of the English language, this phrase as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life means that the subject (the process of Sanctification) is somewhat dependent up "me", the object of the action.

One of my basic points of difference with Michael Harrison is that he seems to remove all personal action (work) of "me" from God's work of "santification" in "me". I think that several of us in this Forum have this same problem with Michael Harrison's apparent beliefs regarding salvation and santification. I have the same problem with you, if you share his belief.

This is a brief response to your post, but I think that is best to keep such posts brief, so I'm focusing on only the above point.

--------------------
Bob

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Zeena,
You ask me:
quote:
Ok, [hopefully] it is 'clearer' now?
No it isn't. You state that you've added more to your comments, but your additions are not helpful.
How so?

Have I not pointed to relevant Scripture which says that faith, in itself, is the gift of God in Christ Jesus?

quote:
Please state your case with WildB and with me in a brief personal articulate statement so that we can understand your point of view regarding these matters of belief in which we are seeking to share our insights and opinions. Posting more Scripture verses probably isn't going to help any of us.
How shall we hear then, if not of God? [Confused]

--------------------
Hopefully this will make things clearer..

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison, the OP [Original post/poster]:
There are two kinds of believers: self righteous believers, and HIS righteousness believers. Is the self-righteous believer really a believer?

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena in response to Michael's OP:
You willing to recieve your faith "OF" God then?

Romans 3: 22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference......

Galatians 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God -- who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Philippians 3: 9 And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the Law -- but that which is through the faith OF Christ -- the righteousness which is of God -- by faith.

Galatians 3: 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by the faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3: 3 (KJV) For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith OF God without effect?

Philippians 1: 27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith OF the gospel.

Revelations 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God -- and the faith OF Jesus.

Romans 3: 26 (Rheims New Testament) Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of His justice in this time, that He Himself may be just; and the justifier of him who is of the faith OF Jesus Christ.

Romans 3: 22 (Rheims New Testament) Even the justice of God, by the faith OF Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe IN Him -- for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison in response to Carmela's post:
Perhaps you are 'not trusting Jesus'. You are perhaps having very little faith in Jesus! Why do I say that? It is not to be insulting. But you said that:

quote:
Carmela wrote:
Michael there's only one problem. At 10:00 you confess your sins and at at 10:01 or sooner, you have already sinned again. It could be a thought, an act, or anger, turning our back on someone in need because we are busy or something, anything. Sometimes, we sin and may not be aware of it.

Michael wrote:
Well, based on this I would have to ask if you are perhaps instead trusting yourself? And as we can see by the timetable that you personally laid out, we can see just how long faith in ones own self lasts. Maybe a minute. Huh?

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena in response to the bashing of Carmela's faith:
heh

But the Faith OF God is Eternal [Wink]

Isn't that The Faith we've recieved in Christ?

It seems to me to be pretty straightforward.. This entire thread is devoted to the deception that there are 'Two believers', as it is aptly named. Meanwhile we are told by God that our old nature has been crucified with Christ!

Sanctification is now no longer dependant upon me, but the work of God in and through me as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life. [Kiss]

It is Jesus we've recieved, and ALL of Him at that. We are complete in Him who is our head, and have all faith abound to us by the Grace of God, through the faith that is in Him. (2 Corinthians 9:8)

Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

And here, in the above verse of Scripture, I quote a good promise that God alone is able to perform, a promise given us in Christ Jesus. [Smile]

For both my edification, and yours [Smile]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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TB125
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Zeena,
You ask me:
quote:
Ok, [hopefully] it is 'clearer' now?
No it isn't. You state that you've added more to your comments, but your additions are not helpful.

Please state your case with WildB and with me in a brief personal articulate statement so that we can understand your point of view regarding these matters of belief in which we are seeking to share our insights and opinions. Posting more Scripture verses probably isn't going to help any of us.

--------------------
Bob

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Eden
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Michael Harrison said to Carmela
quote:
I do know that the most trying ones to be around can be the most immediate members of one's own family. In fact, I have to confess that they can cut through one's victory like a knife, because they have this perception of ownership, and can be very trying as a result. Usually you are just 'property' to them, and they take advantage by making unconscience assumptions, without any respect or recognition whatsoever for the 'object' that is more of less perceived as theirs.
In psychology, what Michael Harrison is saying in this quote is called "projection".

Eden

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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Zeena,
Your recent posts are examples of the problem that I have been trying to correct with my recent postings on the topic of "Sound Teaching".

You cite three different verses of Scripture for some reason in two of your posts, but you don't make a clear statement of your point or the case that you are seeking to make. Many posts would be much better and much clearer if the person would just state his or her point in clear English. Then he or she might be able to support it with a quotation from Scripture, as long as the context of the passage had a direct connection to his or her point.

Ok, [hopefully] it is 'clearer' now?

quote:
The point of your above posts is unclear, and the meaning and application of your cited verses of Scripture is lost. I would encourage you and a lot of us to stop "throwing" a lot of Scriptures at each other in our postings. As I've said before, it is not biblical, and it isn't helpful.
Hopefully it's not lost on people now. The quoting of Scripture only [I thought] was making my 'point' for me. But seeing as it was 'unclear' I've added more a few 'sayings' to hopefully make it 'clear'.

Please tell me what you think?

quote:
Your short slogan, "Are ya dead yet?!?", at the end of your messages doesn't help. It is somewhat provocative and judgmental, IMHO.
I changed it to "Romans 6:3
Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?"

Seeing as this most closely reflects my 'point'.

quote:
You seem willing to learn. I hope that these observations and further suggestions are helpful.
As long as I don't feel compelled to write anything into the text of Scripture, I'm happy [Smile]

Have a great day at church! [wave3]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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TB125
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Zeena,
Your recent posts are examples of the problem that I have been trying to correct with my recent postings on the topic of "Sound Teaching".

You cite three different verses of Scripture for some reason in two of your posts, but you don't make a clear statement of your point or the case that you are seeking to make. Many posts would be much better and much clearer if the person would just state his or her point in clear English. Then he or she might be able to support it with a quotation from Scripture, as long as the context of the passage had a direct connection to his or her point.

The point of your above posts is unclear, and the meaning and application of your cited verses of Scripture is lost. I would encourage you and a lot of us to stop "throwing" a lot of Scriptures at each other in our postings. As I've said before, it is not biblical, and it isn't helpful.

Your short slogan, "Are ya dead yet?!?", at the end of your messages doesn't help. It is somewhat provocative and judgmental, IMHO.

You seem willing to learn. I hope that these observations and further suggestions are helpful.

--------------------
Bob

Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator



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