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Author
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Topic: The New Wine Skin
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
Remembering that the covenant is what binds private individuals into a national body, from time to time we have seasons of "sleepiness" as a holy nation. When they occur, judgments come from God.
Signs of impending judgment accompany the prophets God sends to wake a nation. Fasting of different sorts prepare a nation for receiving the will of God and renewing the garment.
Remember when, under the previous covenant, a Levite went into a town in the area held by the tribe of Benjamin where his concubine was killed? (Judges 19 and 20.)
Somewhere along the line, a part of the holy nation had become very unholy. The rest of the nation came together before the Lord to find out how to deal with it.
Everyone in Israel stopped what they were doing because the nation was at risk.
God gave Israel a plan which cost them dearly.
After the wars, Benjamin was left without access to the means of carrying on as a tribe.
The holy nation refused to let Benjamin disappear.
Jezebel used the fast in Israel in an unjust way against Naboth, but it serves to show how the fast could be used to call the people's attention to offenses against the national covenant. Attention thus called, judgment against "garment rippers" could be pursued.
Remember how a great multitude came against Judah while Jehoshaphat was king? He was scared.
He called all Judah to fast and God responded in the most spectacular way.
Admittedly, Judah was in a condition of revival, at the time. The enemy was using the very intimidating factor of numbers to move Judah off her Rock. The fast was against the fear that arose in Judah because fear is, itself, a sin against God.
In the record of the current covenant, in Acts 3, we see a church trying to express itself as a people for whom Christ had died. Some were gentiles.
The gift of God had come to them as a result of persecution of the holy nation in Jerusalem. Their love for the apostles and other Christians of Judah was demonstrated by a material gift sent for the support of the members of the holy nation still in Judah.
In their ministry to the Lord, they fasted, having recognized the Jewish threat to the holy nation. They did not want to lose the new garment.
The Lord responded with a clear plan of action the results of which made gentile Christians more solidly associated (in the cultural sense- not the eternal sense) with the holy nation than the Jews themselves. Today, most think of Christianity as a "gentile" religion.
As Paul and Barnabas went among the gentiles, they established local expressions of the holy nation by ordaining elders with fasting. (Acts 14.)
As we can tell from Paul's writings, he knew that he was restoring some of the lost children of Israel to the holy nation. He was preparing them for the long haul fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that his seed would possess the gates of their enemies.
As the new covenant people using this manner of warfare, the unsaved gentiles recognized the holy nation as the people who turn the world upside down. (Acts 17.)
And, such, they were. People were buying fewer idols and less meat offered to idols. They were burning books on sorcery. Demonized people were being set free, and the ones who were making money off the demonized were losing their incomes.
With prayer and fasting, the holy nation was making a full frontal assault on the gates of hell where the love of money was the main cultural value.
And they were winning.
Maybe, we should be more interested in fasting. Isaiah 58 shows us the most effective fast of all. - Loose the bands of wickedness: stop being yoked together with unbelievers.
- Undo the heavy burdens: stop living a lifestyle that demands so much support.
- Let the oppressed go free: Free the ones you made to help you carry your own burdensome lifestyle.
- Break the yoke: Destroy the instruments of oppression (contracts).
- Deal thy bread to the hungry: The widows and orphans are the weakest- start there.
- Bring the poor that are cast out into thy house: There are people who will work but they need a secure place to shower and sleep- not to mention an encouraging word.
- Cover the naked.
- Hide not thyself from thine own flesh: If you give your coat and your shirt as well, you nay be a little cold until you get back home to your other clothes.
The Bible says that our conversation/political connections are in heaven. The list, above, tells us how to fast in a way that strengthens our investment there.
The alternative is to support political parties the rudiments of which are of the world. Haven't we learned, by now, that their traditions of philosophy and vain deceit only spoil us?
I assure you. They know it.
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Eden
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scythewieldor, I like your answer that fasting and patching up a garment were related in that no amount of fasting could patch the holes in the righteousness which comes from the Old Testament.
But fasting can still be done with the new covenant, to patch up holes in our righteousness which we have in Jesus.
If I may ask, scythewieldor, how does fasting under the new covenant patch up holes and what do those holes that need patching up under the new covenant, consist of?
thanks, eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear friends,
Fasting is to a covenant as patching is to a garment.
The first days of a covenant are the honeymoon days. As people brake covenant, the memory of the days of first love are mixed with the memory of unfaithfulness. In the desire to enjoy one of the days of the bridegroom, it becomes necessary to patch up the covenant- repair it. Fasting humbles the soul, preparing the soul for the restoration of the groom to his rightful place as Lord of the covenant.
Fasting had done all the patching that could be done on the old covenant. The old covenant was a goner. Why? Because it was time for the son of David to get a kingdom that included the ten lost tribes.
Since the ten lost tribes had been divorced from the Lord, there was no way for them to come back in to the old covenant.
Since Jesus was getting Israel as a new garment, there was, as yet, no need for repairing it. Later, fasting would be in order when need for patching the new garment should arise, fasting with reflection on the new covenant would be available for the patch.
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Eden
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scythewieldor, and I think it was Michael Harrison also, RE the interpretation that the old wine skin refers to the Old Covenant, and that the new wine skin refers to the New Covenant, I think that interpretation is possible too.
However, if I may ask, what was it about "the issue of fasting" that would cause Jesus to speak that parable in the context of fasting? I still don't understand that part. What do you think?
love, eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
quote:
Lu 5:33 And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?
34 And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Mk 2:18 ¶ And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?
19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Mat 9:14 ¶ Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Somehow, it seems that the understanding of new wine and new wine skins should support a theme for the answer of Jesus concerning fasting.
The answer of Jesus in the context of the newly wed requires us to see the Pharisees and the disciples of John as children of an older wedding.
Hmmm. Old marriage.... New marriage....Hmmmmmmm.
quote:
Jer 2:2 Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown.
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Ho 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. 20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
What about that garment thing, though?
Hmmm. Old garment.... New cloth....Hmmmmmm.
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1 Ki 11:29 And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:
30 And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:
31 And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:
32 (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David’s sake, and for Jerusalem’s sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)
33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
34 Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant’s sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:
35 But I will take the kingdom out of his son’s hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.
36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.
37 And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.
38 And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.
39 And I will for this afflict the seed of David, but not for ever.
Jesus, the son of David and the one born KING OF THE JEWS, had inherited a garment which had been rent into twelve pieces. Ten were completely removed and given to Jeroboam. Notice, though, that that garment would not be the "forever" garment.
I know that you understand the role of King Jesus as the Shepherd who would gather and lead Joseph (the fold of which His disciples knew nothing) like a flock.
The ten lost tribes could not be put back into that old garment. Why? Because, Israel, having been given the bill of divorce, had to come in under a new covenant totally incompatible with the old.
However, once the honeymoon is over, there is plenty of time to fast in the longing for the days of the presence of the Bridegroom, and in doing maintenance on the garment (judging the twelve tribes of Israel).
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scythewieldor
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Dear Michael,
Indeed, it must, necessarily.
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Michael Harrison
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scythewieldor, uh-huh! However I have always thought of the twelve as being over the entire church, including us gents, so the twelve tribes must necessarily include us late bloomers (unless we are the thirteenth [justkidding]).
There is no question; the old wineskin was the old covenant. The new wineskin is the new provision of God wherein He pours out His Spirit on all men, whereas He only 'rested on' a few prophets and holy men in the old. The old covenant could not contain the new wine, because Jesus had not shed His blood yet.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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I've already told you or this bbs before what I think the new wine skin is. It is the glorified spiritual body that we will receive. Only it can contain the new wine of 100% Holy Spirit without bursting.
And the old wine skin is our current physical, soulical body which would burst if too much Holy Spirit were put into it:
Revelation 1:17
And when I {John} saw Him, I fell at His feet as one dead. But He laid His right hand on me, while saying to me, Don't be afraid; I am the first and the last.
1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The natural body that we currently have is the old wine skin which would burst if too much "new wine" or Holy Spirit was put into the old wine skin.
Only a spiritual body or new wine skin will be able to contain the "new wine" without bursting.
with love,
eden
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scythewieldor
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Quote:
Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Mr 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Lu 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. 38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
I believe the old wine skin was the old way of judging Israel.
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Jo 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Moses is the one who accuses them who say they trust in him. The writings of Moses were the old wine.
If this interpretation is approved, then the words of Jesus can be the new wine and the Twelve Apostles can be the new wine skin.
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Lu 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
If Moses (who had been long dead at the time of the declaration of Jesus sited above) was accusing Israelites to the Father, it is totally reasonable that the Twelve Apostles are, at this very time, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Notice, also, the way Jesus uses the word "sit" as in "sit on twelve thrones". Compare that to this:
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Mt 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
This "sitting" has important definition in other places.
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Mt 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.
Ac 18:12 And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,
Ac 18:16 And he drave them from the judgment seat.
Ac 18:17 Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.
Ac 25:6 And when he had tarried among them more than ten days, he went down unto Caesarea; and the next day sitting on the judgment seat commanded Paul to be brought.
Ac 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Ac 25:17 Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth.
Ro 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Re 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Re 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
I believe there is a connection between Moses and those who sit in the seat of Moses saying they trust in him that keeps pattern with the Roman judgment seat and those who sat there saying they trusted in Caesar.
I believe a similar pattern is kept with the throne of Jesus, the thrones of His apostles, and those who sit as judges in the church, today, saying they trust in Jesus.
If I am right, those who substitute their own words for the words of Jesus and the decrees of the Apostles will be judged, or are being judged, by the Twelve Apostles even as the scribes and Pharisees which were substituting their own words for the writings of Moses were being accused before the Father by Moses.
The fact that the Twelve Apostles knew that their authority over the twelve tribes had already begun is clearest from two statements.
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Ac 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers: 7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope’s sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
Paul uses the present tense when he refers to the service of the twelve tribes. However, he can not be talking about the service of the Jews because they had determined for themselves that they had no king but Caesar when they demanded that Pilate crucify the one they called THE KING OF THE JEWS.
By destroying the veil in the Temple, God, Himself, ruined the pattern of the things Moses copied when he set forth the pattern for the Temple. Therefore, God could not have been being served by the Jews in that place at that time. In fact, the believers had already begun to constitute the Temple of God.
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1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Thus, the twelve tribes which were serving the Lord at that time had to be doing so in the order being taught by the Twelve Apostles.
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Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
When James wrote this letter, the Jews had not been scattered abroad. However, the believers were being scattered abroad.
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Ac 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
Ac 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
Even though Cornelius had become a believer, there remained a general unwillingness to go to the gentiles. With this persecution, the Gospel began to be preached to the Hellenists. The gentile Christians at Antioch sent support to the brethren at Jerusalem (which, by scripture sited above, was limited to the apostles) as relief from a drought that occurred in the days of Claudius Caesar.
When it became known that the gentiles were willing to share resources with their brethren in Jerusalem, some came down as if from the Apostles to pressure them to keep the law of Moses. James (not James the brother of John which had, already, been killed) settled the issue recognizing their faith in Jesus was a fulfillment of Amos' prophecy to Israel.
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Ac 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
The fuller context of that fulfilled prophecy is thus:
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Am 9:8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
Judah was the "sinful kingdom" from which the kingdom of God was removed to be given to a nation that brings forth the fruits of the kingdom of God. The tabernacle of David was set up over all twelve tribes.
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Mt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Thus, the new wine skin is the holy nation composed of all twelve of the tribes of Israel over which the Twelve Apostles sit in judgment as the Twelve Apostles plainly did concerning Antioch.
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