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Topic: Did Jesus from the Cross Act as Man or as God When He Forgave His Crucifiers?
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Eden
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posted
Have you ever wondered why Satan waited until Jesus had been baptized in the Holy Spirit before Satan approached Jesus in the wilderness?
Because Satan knew that Jesus was the second man or second Adam, and Satan caused the first Adam to fall in the garden of Eden WHILE the first Adam was filled with the Holy Spirit and glory of God.
So in order for Satan to be able to prove that Satan could make this second Adam, Jesus, fall too, Satan had to wait until AFTER Jesus was baptized with the Spirit:
Matthew 4:1
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Jesus had to prove that a Spirit-filled second Adam did not have to fall, and Satan had to prove that a Spirit-filled second Adam could fall, just like the first Adam.
There have therefore been only two Adams in the world: the first Adam was in the garden:
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam who was the son of God.
John 1:34
And I saw and bore record that this is the Son of God.
But as I said, that is why Satan had to wait until Jesus was filled with the Spirit before Satan could tempt Jesus.
be blessed, everyone,
eden
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waynemlj
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
As long as Jesus was still alive, He only acted as the last adam and as the second man. Jesus did not become the Son of God again until after Jesus resurrected, ascended, and took the blood of the last Adam and the second man up into heaven for a testimony before God.
Later that same day, Jesus returned from heaven to earth, but now Jesus was the Son of God and no longer was the last Adam and the second man.
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
eden
Hi Eden,
Nicely said and very Scriptural!
waynemlj
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Isaiah
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I'm just saying that Adam could not have done what Christ did, because Christ was different than Adam. Also -getting back to the topic -Christ's forgiveness holds a lot more weight than any man's -even when he was flesh. In the example given here he askes the Father to forgive, and if the Father did so it is far more important than if a man does so -and when Christ told one 'neither do I condemn you' -or anything similar, you can be assured it means more than when a man overlooks something. I can overlook and forgive a person, but until they confess their sins to God, it is still an issue between them and God. God is infinitely more forgiving than I am, and is always willing -his mercy never fails -but until a person confesses to him with a repentant heart, that forgiveness is of no effect to the person.
Here we see Christ calling himself the son of man -AND telling men he has the Godly authority to forgive sins -unlike any other man ( though some men think they have this authority...we can only forgive each other for that which we do against each other -not God)-though this is always by the Father's authority -even now.......
Mat 9:1 And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.
Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mat 9:3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
Mat 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
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Eden
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Hi, Isaiah, you said quote:
I still disagree -he was God with us -and if he was completely as Adam, not sinless God -though he could have sinned-his sacrifice would not be worth all our lives.
Isaiah, consider these verses quote:
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded unto many.
Here the same Greek expression is used, by one man.
Strong's Concordance
Rom 5:12 Wherefore 1223 5124, as 5618 by 1223 one 1520 man 444 sin 266 entered 1525 into 1519 the world 2889, and 2532 death 2288 by 1223 sin 266; and 2532 so 3779 death 2288 passed 1330 upon 1519 all 3956 men 444, for 1909 that 3739 all 3956 have sinned 264 :
Rom 5:15 But 235 not 3756 as 5613 the offence 3900, so 3779 also 2532 [is] the free gift 5486. For 1063 if 1487 through the offence 3900 of one 1520 many 4183 be dead 599 , much 4183 more 3123 the grace 5485 of God 2316, and 2532 the gift 1431 by 1722 grace 5485, [which is 3588] by one 1520 man 444, Jesus 2424 Christ 5547, hath abounded 4052 unto 1519 many 4183.
Strong's Concordance 444:
444. anthropos anth'-ro-pos from 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:--certain, man.
The first sinless Adam who sinned was an anthropos and the last sinless Adam, Jesus Christ, was an anthropos.
Note also that the Bible only calls the first Adam and the last Adam by the title "son of God":
Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam who was the son of God.
Acts 9:20
And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Jesus was made exactly like the first Adam before the first Adam sinned. That's why Jesus was formed of the Holy Spirit overwhelming Mary, so that Jesus did not come up through the sin-line of Adam, Jesus was made LIKE the first Adam, without sin, so that the contest was fair.
Can a person like the first Adam have remained faithful to God? Jesus proved that a person with a body like the first Adam can remain faithful to God.
Indeed, when the Bible says that Jesus was the last Adam, it must not be understood that there were many Adams before Jesus and that Jesus was not the LAST Adam.
No! There have been only two Adams in all of history.
The first sinless Adam sinned and his descendants were all sinners and were no longer like the first sinless Adam. So thus far there has only been ONE first Adam.
And Jesus was the LAST sinless Adam, meaning there were ONLY TWO SINLESS ADAMS. That is why the Bible also calls Jesus the second man:
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Note that all the men inbetween the first man and the second man are not counted, and that is because there have been only two sinless Adams in the world sofar. The first one sinned with his sinless Adam body, and the second one proved that he could remian sinless with his Adam body.
Isaiah, let me repeat what you said[quote]I still disagree -he was God with us -and if he was completely as Adam, not sinless God -though he could have sinned-his sacrifice would not be worth all our lives.The value of the last Adam was determined by God, not by us. And since it was the Son of God who became the last Adam and became the Son of God again, God is even more aware of the enormous sacrifice that the Son of God made to be willing to become a second man or last Adam for mankind.
After Jesus's resurrection, Jesus carried His blood up to heaven, and then on Pentecost, the Father poured out the Holy Spirit on the believers in Jesus, and the fact that the Holy Spirit was poured out is evidence for humans to see that God is satisfied with the value of the last Adam or second man. When God is satisfied, it does not matter what man thinks the value of the second man or last Adam was.
But when one adds that the second man or last Adam was the Son of God both before and after the earth experience, then it's easy to see the value of the second man or last Adam.
Strong's Concordance 444:
444. anthropos anth'-ro-pos from 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:--certain, man.
The first Adam who sinned was an anthropos and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, was an anthropos.
Be blessed,
eden
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Eden
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Yes, becauseHElives, I agree Jesus was a man in all he did, and left His deity with the Father until Jesus picked it up again after the resurrection. After the resurrection, Jesus went to heaven, and by the time Jesus returned that evenining to earth, Jesus already was the Son of God again for 40 days and 40 nights of testimony of His resurrection. Son of God before earth and Son of God after earth, but not Son of God during earth.
Isaiah, you said quote:
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
There are two direct references in the Old Testament which stated to Israel that the Father YHWH had a SON. One is the above verse, and the other is Psalm 2:12: quote:
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you perish from the way when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they who put their trust in him.
love, eden
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becauseHElives
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Yeshua was /is our example in all things!
Yeshua was tempted in every way, just as we are tempted!
When on the cross and ask His Father to forgive those crucifying Him, Yeshua was acting as a man.
Yeshua left His deity at the Throne with the Father before coming to earth.
Everything Yeshua did, as He walked this earth was as a man but a man filled without measure with the same Holy Spirit that now fills the lives of true believers.
We each only have a portion, making the whole Body but Yeshua was filled without measure.
We still only know in part….
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
And only when we have a glorified body will it be any different.
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal (on equality) with God, but made Himself of no reputation (emptied Himself), taking a bondman's form, being come in men's likeness" (Phil. 2: 5-7)
Yeshus’s example in all things was that a man or woman filled with the Spirit of Yahweh can do all things…
They can forgive those that would torture and kill them…
He showed by example no sin was to great to overcome wwhen filled with the Spirit….
He was all God and all man but everything He did He did as a man only filled with the Spirit of God…
Just exactly what He ask of believers!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Isaiah
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SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
Pro 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
I never knew there was a verse in the old testament which spoke so plainly of the relationship between the Father and the Word.
Thanks for the post.
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yahsway
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Yeshua was the 2nd Adam and also The Son of God while on earth.
He has always Been the Son of God.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, AND what is His Sons name, If you know?
Is 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace
He is also called Immanuel God with us.
Mark 2:9
Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say 'Arise take up your bed and walk'?
verse 10 "But that you may know that the SON OF MAN has power on earth to forgive sins"-He said to the paralytic,
verse 11 "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."
Luke 8:48
Then He said to her "Your sins are forgiven."
verse49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives SINS?"
Luke 22:70
The They ALL said, "Are You then the Son of God?" So He said to them, "You rightly say that I AM."
Yeshua, both Son of Man and Son of God while on earth, forgave sins while on earth before His crucifixion and afterwards.
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Isaiah
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I am saying that these all still apply -and did before he was flesh -
John 10:25b, "The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe beause you are not part of my flock."
John 10:32, "Jesus answered them, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"
John 10:37, "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;"
Jesus repeatedly told us that He did what the Father was doing in Him.
This is true -but the only difference is he left one body and inhabited another -he was as he always was, and is now -just in a flesh body.
He is the WORD -LOGOS -it is his eternal position to show good things from the Father.
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waynemlj
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quote:
Originally posted by Isaiah:
I disagree that Christ did not act as God when on earth. Perhaps I do not know exactly what you mean, but even now he acts as he did when here as flesh -he does the will of the Father and would answer the same -Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. -this is not to say he was not GOD WITH US -HE WAS -and he acted as such -but he referred to the Father -as he would even now -even saying we ought to pray to the Father -not him -but in his name.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Hi Isaiah,
Let me see if I can clarify my meaning that you are unsure of here in your reply.
Jesus was the God-man while he was on earth, for sure.
However, He (by agreement with His Father) left His glory in Heaven; that is, He did not use His own power as God in anything He did, including the miracles of healing and raising people from the dead.
Below are a few Scriptures to illustrate that truth:
John 10:25b, "The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe beause you are not part of my flock."
Here, Jesus is telling the people that He is doing what the Father tells Him to do.
John 10:32, "Jesus answered them, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"
Again, Jesus is acting as a sinless man, listening to the commands of His Father and acting on them accordingly.
John 10:37, "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;"
Jesus repeatedly told us that He did what the Father was doing in Him.
In order for Jesus to be called the Lamb of God by John the Baptist, He must have been completely helpless as a lamb in every thought, word, and deed --right up to His last words of forgiveness from the cross.
How could He tell us to "love our enemies" and then not do that very same thing as a man Himself?
Matthew 5:43-45, "You have heard it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'But I say to you, 'Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.'"
From the cross, then, as man, Jesus forgave His persecutors.
I hope that this helps to clear up my meaning from my Post.
waynemlj
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Isaiah
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I still disagree -he was God with us -and if he was completely as Adam, not sinless God -though he could have sinned -his sacrifice would not be worth all our lives. He took on our nature -flesh, but he remained himself -again -perhaps I don't know what you mean.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
He even said he was the same being he was before when he said......
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Word -Christ -NEVER -EVEN NOW -self-rules -he always has -and always will -obey the father and be subject to him -even when all things are made subject to him will he be subjest to the Father.
And let us not forget what the Father said of him when he came up out of the water after being baptised.....
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
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Eden
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Hi, Isaiah. You said to Eden quote:
disagree that Christ did not act as God when on earth.
I do think that Jesus was the Son of God before Jesus incarnated in Mary; and,
I do agree that Jesus became the Son of God again once Jesus was resurrected.
but the child that came out of Mary was the last Adam and the second man, also called the Son of man.
The last Adam and the second man and the Son of man were however required to do no soul- or self-rule but to listen 100% to what the Spirit was saying to man's spirit.
This the first man or first Adam did not do, but the last Adam or second man, Jesus, He did do that:
John 8:28
Then said Jesus to them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak those things.
In order to atone for the first Adam, Jesus had to be just like the first Adam and...try again, to show that it was possible to remain faithful to God.
But Jesus of Nazareth did no thinking or acting of His own, so that it can be said that Jesus transmitted 100% of what the Father said and tranmitted 100% of the Father's life energy:
Colossians 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
As the Son of man, God was in Christ:
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
But in order to pay for man's sins, Jesus of Nazareth was only allowed to be the last Adam, the second man, and the Son of man on earth, because if Jesus acted out of His Son of God at all, the project of redemption would fail, because Jesus has to be someone of equal value as the first Adam. Jesus was the Second Adam, not the Son of God, while on earth.
love, eden
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Isaiah
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I disagree that Christ did not act as God when on earth. Perhaps I do not know exactly what you mean, but even now he acts as he did when here as flesh -he does the will of the Father and would answer the same -Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. -this is not to say he was not GOD WITH US -HE WAS -and he acted as such -but he referred to the Father -as he would even now -even saying we ought to pray to the Father -not him -but in his name.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
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Eden
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As long as Jesus was still alive, He only acted as the last adam and as the second man. Jesus did not become the Son of God again until after Jesus resurrected, ascended, and took the blood of the last Adam and the second man up into heaven for a testimony before God.
Later that same day, Jesus returned from heaven to earth, but now Jesus was the Son of God and no longer was the last Adam and the second man.
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
eden
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waynemlj
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Hi Isaiah,
Yes, His humanity is the Only thing that saves us.
If Jesus, even one time, acted as God while He walked this earth, He would have been DISOBEDIENT TO HIS FATHER.
Romans 5:19, "For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous."
In other words, if Jesus made ONE ACT AS GOD, He would have disqualified Himself to be the Savior of mankind.
I hope the above quote helps to clear up any uncertainty about how vital it was that Jesus forgive His crucifiers out of a perfect, sinless man's heart, just as He commanded all of us to do, by the the same Holy Spirit that was in Jesus and is in us.
waynemlj
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Isaiah
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yah -not what i meant -wasn't dismissing anything -just saying that Christ was Christ when he was the Word, when he was I AM, and when he was flesh. Everything God and the Word do is important, to be sure -and though it was important that he become flesh FOR our forgiveness, he has always been the same -whether flesh or not -so his fleshliness is not important TO HIS forgiveNESS -it did not change his ability or willingness to forgive -but changed OUR ability to BE forgiven unto life, as it was US who sinned and were so sentenced to death.
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WildB
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Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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That is all.....
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waynemlj
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quote:
Originally posted by Isaiah:
When Christ forgave any, it was as who he was -whether he was human or not at any given time is not really important -he has always been who he is -only his body was different -though when born an infant it took him a while to know who he was.
The verse quoted is of Christ asking the Father to forgive these people -which is important for him to do as Christ obeys the Father and intercedes for men. It is ultimately up to the Father what becomes of us.
Hi Isaiah,
That's a rather unusual statement you made when you said, ". . . whether he was human or not at any given time is not really important."
The whole point of Atonement (death of Christ in our place)is that it was a covenant made between the Father and the Son.
I don't see how you can dismiss the Incarnation as unimportant. Jesus is the Second Adam, and at no time was he acting in any other way than as a man, filled by the Holy Spirit.
Satan tempted Jesus in the desert in three different ways, as you will recall, to get Him to act as God, instead of as man. Jesus rebuked Satan by quoting Scripture, which was written for a man to use, not God.
1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.'
He could only be the Lamb of God if He remained helpless in Himself, depending on the Father's commands through the Holy Spirit within Him.
The same Holy Spirit is in you and me.
waynemlj
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by waynemlj:
Johm 5:19, "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.'"
In his human body, like us, he could do nothing without the power of God.
Phil.2: 6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being.When he appeared in human form, 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Isaiah
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When Christ forgave any, it was as who he was -whether he was human or not at any given time is not really important -he has always been who he is -only his body was different -though when born an infant it took him a while to know who he was.
The verse quoted is of Christ asking the Father to forgive these people -which is important for him to do as Christ obeys the Father and intercedes for men. It is ultimately up to the Father what becomes of us.
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waynemlj
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Hi Aaron,
The first part of your answer is good!
There is no dichotomy. Jesus was a man who offered His every thought to the Father in obedience to the Father's Will.
John 5:19, "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.'"
He was being faithful to the command he gave us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us.
To His last breath on the cross He was faithful to remain the Second Adam so that He could be the perfect sacrifice to the Father on behalf of mankind and be the true sin bearer to save us from the wrath of God.
You were on the right track in your answer, I believe.
waynemlj
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by waynemlj:
Luke 23:34, "And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.' "
Do you think that Jesus forgave His crucifiers acting as a man, or was he acting as God?
waynemlj
You're creating a dichotomy where there is none. He was both flesh and God. Perhaps ask your question a different way?
Aaron
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Good NewsforAll
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Jesus went to the cross in human flesh and arose in a glorified state.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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waynemlj
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Luke 23:34, "And Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.' "
Do you think that Jesus forgave His crucifiers acting as a man, or was he acting as God?
waynemlj
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