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Topic: Irresistible Grace
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
bump
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
First let me ask the question….
Do we all agree that “grace” is the only means Yahweh has ever had “New Testament and Old”?
Now as to “Irresistible Grace”…..
Did the people the scriptures refer to as Yahweh’s chosen people have in say in the matter of becoming the chosen people?
I say they did!
Abraham chosen to be the father of Faith had a choice, did he not?
Yahweh did not force Abraham to get up and leave Ur of the Chaldees.
Abraham had a choice, as we do, whosoever will let him come?
Therefore it was not “irresistible grace”!
Yahweh says they are the natural branches…
Romans 11:21….
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
It would be nice if everything was fixed so we had no choice, we would be born to go to heaven or hell but that is a lie from the pit of hell.
Yes Yahweh knows everything….
If He did not He would not be Yahweh.
But we as mortal men and women should never suppose to convince anyone they were or were not chose by Yahweh to be His child or not.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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hittite1963
Advanced Member
Member # 7092
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posted
David,
I, again say that I appreciate your willingness to address this issue. It underlies many concepts that people hold, often without them even realizing it. I think you have expressed it basically as Calvin taught it. He said:
quote:
John Calvin
"This movement of the will is not of that description which was for many ages taught and believed, viz., a movement which thereafter leaves us the choice to obey or resist it, but one which affects us efficaciously. We must, therefore, repudiate the oft-repeated sentiment of Chrysostom,"Whom he draws, he draws willingly" (Institutes of the Christian Religion Bk. 2, 3.10).
And further in the same section...
quote:
John Calvin
"Hear Christ exclaiming, 'No man comets unto me, except the Father which has sent me draw him.'" And from the words of John, (6: 44,) he infers it to be an incontrovertible fact, that the hearts of believers are so effectually governed from above, that they follow with undeviating affection. "Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him" (I John 3: 9.) That intermediate movement which the sophists imagine, a movement which every one is free to obey or to reject, is obviously excluded by the doctrine of effectual perseverance" (Institutes of the Christian Religion Bk. 2, 3.10).
This is not what Scripture teaches. Man is drawn by the word (Romans 10:17)--the "word of His grace" (Acts 20:32). That grace is not a a compulsion of the heart, but something that teaches us what we should think, and do, and how we should live. Paul told Titus:
quote:
For the grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:11-13).
This is the grace to which one must cling--but it can be rejected, resisted, and refused. The Hebrew writer warned, "See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven" (Hebrews 12:25). Thanks.
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Kyle Pope
kmpope@worldnet.att.net
http://kmpope.home.att.net
http://www.olsenpark.com
Posts: 70 | From: Amarillo, TX - USA | Registered: Mar 2008
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
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We are going to discuss this topic in a friendly way. Do NOT be rude to other members of this message board.
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
If this is not what Calvinist believe please let me know.
PLEASE DO NOT START POSTING PAGES OF OTHER PEOPLES WRITING. USE YOUR OWN WORDS.
You can quote but don't past pages of info.
Thank you,
David Campbell
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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